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 l0k1 wrote:
With the changes to Heavy Bolters(with Prescience/Endless Cacophony/VoTLW) are they better at taking down light vehicles now than Autocannons?

Mechanicum priest to tell you the maths of this !

Heavy Bolter, 10 pts, Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:

vs T5 4+: 4,44 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,33 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,50 wounds
vs T8 3+: 2,50 wounds

Autocannon, 10 pts, Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:

vs T5 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,22 wounds
vs T8 3+: 1,67 wounds

Looks like the Autocannon is only better (and meagerly) against the T6/4+ profile, which is highly specific (only Ironstriders/Dragoons from AdMech have this that I know of, maybe some Aeldari vehicles). Haven't run the maths with no buffs though but the Heavy Bolter wins on account of polyvalence. It has reduced range but 36" is often long enough.

 Aaranis wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
With the changes to Heavy Bolters(with Prescience/Endless Cacophony/VoTLW) are they better at taking down light vehicles now than Autocannons?

Mechanicum priest to tell you the maths of this !

Heavy Bolter, 10 pts, Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:

vs T5 4+: 4,44 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,33 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,50 wounds
vs T8 3+: 2,50 wounds

Autocannon, 10 pts, Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:

vs T5 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,22 wounds
vs T8 3+: 1,67 wounds

Looks like the Autocannon is only better (and meagerly) against the T6/4+ profile, which is highly specific (only Ironstriders/Dragoons from AdMech have this that I know of, maybe some Aeldari vehicles). Haven't run the maths with no buffs though but the Heavy Bolter wins on account of polyvalence. It has reduced range but 36" is often long enough.

Interesting. Thanks for the math! Looks like Heavy bolters are back in my list of things to build

I'm glad too, they always have been my favourite Astartes ranged weapon and I plan on a unit of HB Havocs in the far future

How are you getting a chaos lord on a bike? (Sorry, just getting back into 40K). Where are the rules for this?

Thanks

Green is Best! wrote:How are you getting a chaos lord on a bike? (Sorry, just getting back into 40K). Where are the rules for this?

Thanks

They were moved to legends a few months ago so only really usable in friendly games with opponents permission.

Aaranis wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
With the changes to Heavy Bolters(with Prescience/Endless Cacophony/VoTLW) are they better at taking down light vehicles now than Autocannons?

Mechanicum priest to tell you the maths of this !

Heavy Bolter, 10 pts, Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:

vs T5 4+: 4,44 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,33 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,50 wounds
vs T8 3+: 2,50 wounds

Autocannon, 10 pts, Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 2D, shot by an Havoc, with Prescience, Endless Cacophony and VotLW:

vs T5 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T6 4+: 3,70 wounds
vs T7 3+: 2,22 wounds
vs T8 3+: 1,67 wounds

Looks like the Autocannon is only better (and meagerly) against the T6/4+ profile, which is highly specific (only Ironstriders/Dragoons from AdMech have this that I know of, maybe some Aeldari vehicles). Haven't run the maths with no buffs though but the Heavy Bolter wins on account of polyvalence. It has reduced range but 36" is often long enough.

Thanks for this, looks like I'm retiring the autocannons then. I have always loved heavy bolters though i always felt like a space marine should be able to fire one on the move without penalty.
I think i'll still take a reaper chaincannon as the heavy in a squad of csm, the extra shots mitigates the -1 and the cost is less prohibitive when hidden behind 4 ablative wounds (soon to be 9!) but a squad of 4 heavy bolter havocs might have to be added to my list. 36" range is generally enough on the new sized tables...

Legends are still legal in matched play, no permission from opponent needed.

 p5freak wrote:
Legends are still legal in matched play, no permission from opponent needed.

Are you sure? To be honest I just checked the Legends page on WarCom and it does say they can be used in matched play but I'd still think it really needs a conversation before using them.
I think the issue would be that many haven't had a points adjustment throughout 8th edition. With the 9th edition price hike across the board, many of the Legends units must now be undercosted. Saying that, the aforementioned Biker Lord is 116pts barebones while the identical captain on a bike is only 100pts for loyalists.

Until I just looked at the loyalist points, I was under the impression the biker lord was an unfair bargain for us being only 11 points more than a jump pack lord with 2" extra movement, 6" advance, extra toughness and wound and a built in combi bolter.
Loyalists get that all for 5pts less than a jump pack captain, I'm surprised you don't see more of them now...

Abaddon303 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Legends are still legal in matched play, no permission from opponent needed.

Are you sure? To be honest I just checked the Legends page on WarCom and it does say they can be used in matched play but I'd still think it really needs a conversation before using them.

Yes, i am sure. No permission needed. If it makes you feel better, talk to your opponent.

Since loyalist dreadnoughts seem to be getting the CORE keyword, I wonder if the same will be done for Chaos versions, hellforged and/or helbrutes. Helbrutes don't get that much play right now I don't thinking, but with the new multi-melta rules plus possibly being CORE, they could become major players.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Since loyalist dreadnoughts seem to be getting the CORE keyword, I wonder if the same will be done for Chaos versions, hellforged and/or helbrutes. Helbrutes don't get that much play right now I don't thinking, but with the new multi-melta rules plus possibly being CORE, they could become major players.

I think GW will grant Hellbrutes infantry and bikers (if lucky) the core rules just like now our traits are.
Frankly, the hellbrute isn't even bad overall, it's just another vehicle that get's pushed out of the meta because it has no invul and is not tanky enough / price to stand up to a meta that has a high focus on AT. Also the new eradicators certainly haven't helped that situation.

I wouldnt count on it, we didnt get doctrines either.

Is Red corsair strategem "More where they came from" limited to 1 use only?

Does a Greater Possessed ability Locus of Power effect the strength of the gun on the Obliterators?

 Reivax26 wrote:
Does a Greater Possessed ability Locus of Power effect the strength of the gun on the Obliterators?

Afraid not no. Their guns are S6 + D3, greater possessed only affects the users strength.

 koooaei wrote:
Is Red corsair strategem "More where they came from" limited to 1 use only?

Not to my knowledge.
Allbeit since it is vigilus ablaze...

But no. More where they came from is not limited to 1 use per game, hence why CSM horde lists actually went bad to gimmick list.

Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.

 Reivax26 wrote:
Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.

Yes PA stuff is still legal

Thanks for the info. Running a Spearhead with Venomcrawlers and a Disco Lord plus Obliterators. Need Master of Diversion and Hydras Wail lol

 Reivax26 wrote:
Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.

AFAIK only things that have been barred from tourneys are Specialist Detachments (Vigilus Ablaze)

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
Are the Psychic Awakening books legal in tournaments? I have a doubles tournament coming up on Saturday and if I can't use the Warlord traits, Relics and Strategems from Faith and Fury then I am going to be no use to my partner as Alpha Legion.

AFAIK only things that have been barred from tourneys are Specialist Detachments (Vigilus Ablaze)

Yep, everything in Psychic Awakening for us is still legitimate.

Okay, so, as far as I can tell, Loyalist (tracked) tanks, scouty stuff, and so on all had their smoke rules paywalled by a stratagem

In other words, Rhinos pay 1CP to pop smoke, and only one of them can do it in the turn

When - and I see no reason to assume it won’t - this change is applied to us, mechanised armies are going to be heavily impacted IMO

If Prayer effects get core-locked, we won’t be able to give a rhino parking lot a load of invulns, either

Add the upgrading of Heavy Bolter scratch damage to meaty 2W chunks, and we may be looking at a seismic nerfing of many of our armoured lists

 lindsay40k wrote:
Okay, so, as far as I can tell, Loyalist (tracked) tanks, scouty stuff, and so on all had their smoke rules paywalled by a stratagem

In other words, Rhinos pay 1CP to pop smoke, and only one of them can do it in the turn

When - and I see no reason to assume it won’t - this change is applied to us, mechanised armies are going to be heavily impacted IMO

If Prayer effects get core-locked, we won’t be able to give a rhino parking lot a load of invulns, either

Add the upgrading of Heavy Bolter scratch damage to meaty 2W chunks, and we may be looking at a seismic nerfing of many of our armoured lists

Which hilarious because from what I've been reading, daemon engine spam has been doing decently well. Ah, GW gives CSM something just to nerf it.

 l0k1 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Okay, so, as far as I can tell, Loyalist (tracked) tanks, scouty stuff, and so on all had their smoke rules paywalled by a stratagem

In other words, Rhinos pay 1CP to pop smoke, and only one of them can do it in the turn

When - and I see no reason to assume it won’t - this change is applied to us, mechanised armies are going to be heavily impacted IMO

If Prayer effects get core-locked, we won’t be able to give a rhino parking lot a load of invulns, either

Add the upgrading of Heavy Bolter scratch damage to meaty 2W chunks, and we may be looking at a seismic nerfing of many of our armoured lists

Which hilarious because from what I've been reading, daemon engine spam has been doing decently well. Ah, GW gives CSM something just to nerf it.

Hm, i guess, allbeit so long daemonengines are comparatively cheap, their invul will remain the true reason they work.

Yeah, DE Jamboree will only be affected if (1) you rely on a T1 advance + smoke bombs Defiler avalanche, (2) Daemonkin loci get Core-locked, or (3) you rely on CL aura and DP aura also gets Core-locked

Techmarine gained a single unite vehicle hit modifier buff and an upgrade that’s not a million miles away from master of the Soulforges, I’m cautiously optimistic that we’ll get some of the fun stuff from VA back

You’d think LD aura won’t get core-locked...

did you clap wood when you called the LD non core?
Because now watch gw feth it up.

Okay, Heavy Bolters becoming 2D will actually impact on DE spam regardless

BTW, the Reaper Autocannon AP-2 D1 may be inconsistent with Autocannons but it is consistent with the reaper profile in Codex SM, which is there because it’s in the Tartaros Terminators kit, so unless that itself was a typo you can take our new profile as staying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. There’s Techmarine auras that are specific to Dreadnoughts, which can be used to “fix” heavily injured characters. I wonder what’s going to be rolled out with our frothingM point-and-let go Helbrutes? I assume we’ll be able to stick a Crusade model in there to punish failure...

...if it were me, I’d give the interned model a bonus aura making characters fight harder for fear of the same, but that’s veering into wishlisting...

Not Online!!! wrote:
did you clap wood when you called the LD non core?
Because now watch gw feth it up.

I'm hoping we won't need the LD aura. Give the Legions back their +1 LD on all Legionnaires compared to the Loyalist Dogs, hopefully with some other stat buffs. Make VOTLW something other than a strategem again.

Watch as the Defiler goes to 300 points and becomes a LoW...

Hmm. This EC relic, Remnant of the Maraviglia. “Until the end of that battle round, when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly EMPEROR’S CHILDREN unit within 6" of a model with this Relic, you can re-roll the wound roll.“

It doesn’t specify “attacks made with melee weapons”… potential T1 leafblower list? I could go for eighteen S5 D2 Sonic Blasters double-tapping and re-rolling. Not too difficult to get a Possessed horde to conga-line into range of it, either. Give them combat elixirs and a daemon‘s locus, and the charge is doable without Warptime... maybe use that to throw a Defiler or whatnot into the mix. Get some Fiends in there, and the Possessed get protected from firepower, and strike before all but the first counter-charging unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh.

Invulnerable save rules:

“Each time an attack is allocated to a model with an invulnerable save, you can choose to use either its normal Save (Sv) characteristic or its invulnerable save, but not both. If a model has more than one invulnerable save, it can only use one of them - choose which it will use. If you use a model’s invulnerable save, it is never modified by a weapon’s Armour Penetration value.“

Rubric Marines All is Dust rules:

“Add 1 to saving throws for Rubric Marines if the attack has a Damage characteristic of 1”

Throw in the Tzeentch endurance spell, and that’s a 3++... interesting.

I think the new death guard codex will be the one we should look at. That will likely affect many CSM armies because we share so many units and wargear. They may also do something similar to SM and declare that CSM armies use the datasheets of shared wargear and units in the deathguard codex.