Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]

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**macluvin**

All the daemon for your list! I echo your sentiment; I don’t like current possessed models. I definitely do not have the painting skills to make them look good. I think it’s a fun list that will carry you through a casual meta. Also it’ll look pretty cool, fluffy and thematic. And let’s face the facts rule of cool wins every time.

**Not Online!!!**

macluvin wrote:
All the daemon for your list! I echo your sentiment; I don’t like current possessed models. I definitely do not have the painting skills to make them look good. I think it’s a fun list that will carry you through a casual meta. Also it’ll look pretty cool, fluffy and thematic. And let’s face the facts rule of cool wins every time.

Possessed bits can be quite easily combined with the new CSM kit, or the ones from the starter set, to get some quite amazing models imo.
but yes, they nowadays without heavy modification look a bit, too , cartoony.

**Aaranis**

What does a competitive CSM list ressemble nowadays ?

Also, are Lord Discordants and Venomcrawlers any good ? I love both models, and I'll probably get two Start Collecting when I get to buy SMC. Looking at it on paper hitting on 4+ is bad, which kinda forces us to run the Lord Discordant, however he's not protected by Character rules and so a easy target.

**p5freak**

I dont like VCs, or daemon engines, they require a lot of support to work. Yes, you can bring a disco lord along, and they hit on 3s, you can cast prescience on them, and they hit on 2s, but then you roll a 2 or 3 for their number of shots. You can bring a greater possessed to give them S+1, or a chaos lord to reroll 1s, or a dark apostle to buff their inv to 4+, but then you fail the roll of 7. You can bring a herald of slaanesh, to allow them to charge after advancing. And then your VCs blow up, killing your support characters. They take up heavy support slots, which cant be used for havocs. And they dont benefit from legion traits.

**Aaranis**

Yeah reading the codex it feels like too much hassle to make them do what they're supposed to. I don't want to lug around 3 characters to make one unit work every time I add something to my army.

On the question of Havocs, are they our best anti-tank option or is the spot reserved for something else ? If going unsupported, I'd give them Heavy Bolters or Chainreapers because of the number of shots, but if going with Lascannons, 4 shots at BS3+ are unreliable and would need a Dark Apostle/Prescience to help them.

Also I wonder which will be a better choice between HB and CRC when the HB gets buffed to 2D. Point costs will determine I guess.

**Not Online!!!**

Aaranis wrote:
Yeah reading the codex it feels like too much hassle to make them do what they're supposed to. I don't want to lug around 3 characters to make one unit work every time I add something to my army.

On the question of Havocs, are they our best anti-tank option or is the spot reserved for something else ? If going unsupported, I'd give them Heavy Bolters or Chainreapers because of the number of shots, but if going with Lascannons, 4 shots at BS3+ are unreliable and would need a Dark Apostle/Prescience to help them.

Also I wonder which will be a better choice between HB and CRC when the HB gets buffed to 2D. Point costs will determine I guess.

Daemonengines, are actually , due to their price having dropped quite heavily, not as bad anymore as they once were.
the issue is, especially for the more shooty oriented, that the unit that should fix them / would fix them, didn't get the aura, which is stuck on an overly efficently priced Beatstick...
Also VC, even though awesome, are a bit dangerous for your own army... However, i found some success in flinging them at my oponent, assault guns and high speed makes them easily usefull as a quasi suiced charge unit. + firing in melee is now a thing.
Shooty AT havocs are a tad reliant on rerolls imo, who knows, with the buff to the missile launcher maybee that option get's considered more, AC's also still exist. But the overall easiest weapon to make them work would be high dakka, cacophony out of a termite or via movement shenanigans positioned unit. They do their job, if equipped for AT, still better then obliterators though, preciscly because they aren't as random as Oblits and are also alot cheaper comparatively.

**lindsay40k**

@ Aaranis - WB Daemonkin player here.

Dark Apostles want their boots to be on the ground every turn, or else their prayer ability is being wasted, plus they take up a really inefficient three spaces with their disciples. I can't really recommend any Relic for the main one other than the Epistle of Lorgar - being unable to fix prayers with a command reroll is a major issue.

A second beatstick DA with cursed crozius is fun in like Crusade or casual games, but it's not going to storm any tournaments, and a hammer lord does everything it does better.

A chaos lord with jump pack and ashen axe is an incredible addition. If you're not fighting an all flying tau army, you can make anything stay in combat and take their punishment.

Oblits are a solid accompaniment to a MoP with MI, especially with MoS. Especially now they can deploy behind LOS blocking terrain. For the first turn or two, you can soup up their guns, then you can enhance the Possessed.

Never forget your Legion stratagems, Malevolent Covenant and Hexagrammic Ward are borderline game changers. The stuff you can pull off with them is amazing. Being able to nigh guarantee turning off a unit's Storm Shields is outstanding. Swatting aside a Relic Thunder Hammer is priceless.

I'm not a big fan of stacking strength buffs. If you're S5-6, you're strong enough to beat up most things with help from VotLW. Relying on three or four buffs to be able to hurt something is really vulnerable to a moving part failing on you. Extra attacks and rerolls are far more reliable IME.

Chaos Daemons allies are a really powerful moving part. Some of them, you can summon in, some of them, you really benefit from having in a detachment to gain an extra Locus. (This also opens up the Possession stratagem, which has excellent synergy with MoP.)

A Poxbringer can effectively give you rolling VotLW on a melee unit, and if it's not summoned then it can also make them spew out mortal wounds. A Gnarlmaw can make deployed units extremely resilient to losing first turn and taking fire - and opens the door to warptiming a unit into charging on the first turn.

A Khorne hero in your army list can currently give daemon engines rerolls to charge, but that role's future is uncertain with the new Core rules rolling out.

A summoned Changeling is a great addition to a Tzeentch possessed 3++ blob. D2 weapons are going to become a lot more common, and it's aura reduces their effectiveness by a third. You can also get some handy unit buffs from a summoned Herald.

Deploying a Slaanesh Daemons Vanguard gives you a lot of fall back denial, and a load of first turn advance & charge, and potentially a bonus round of attacks on a unit.

**ArcaneHorror**

With the new rules concerning rerolls being limited to core units, does anyone here think that Chaos lords with jump packs are less worthwhile? There's no point in following fast vehicles anymore and more incentive in simply staying with troop units. I'm asking since I'm thinking of building at least one and don't want to build anything unnecessary.

**lindsay40k**

We don't know what Warpsmiths will do - quite possibly be a chaos lord for vehicles - and IMO Lords have a few remaining niches

Fly alongside rhinos full of shock troops without taking up space

Jump with hammer

Gunline marshall

**Gadzilla666**

It depends on the Legion. A Night Lords army without a jump lord just doesn't seem right.

**Aaranis**

lindsay40k wrote:
@ Aaranis - WB Daemonkin player here.

Dark Apostles want their boots to be on the ground every turn, or else their prayer ability is being wasted, plus they take up a really inefficient three spaces with their disciples. I can't really recommend any Relic for the main one other than the Epistle of Lorgar - being unable to fix prayers with a command reroll is a major issue.

A second beatstick DA with cursed crozius is fun in like Crusade or casual games, but it's not going to storm any tournaments, and a hammer lord does everything it does better.

A chaos lord with jump pack and ashen axe is an incredible addition. If you're not fighting an all flying tau army, you can make anything stay in combat and take their punishment.

Oblits are a solid accompaniment to a MoP with MI, especially with MoS. Especially now they can deploy behind LOS blocking terrain. For the first turn or two, you can soup up their guns, then you can enhance the Possessed.

Never forget your Legion stratagems, Malevolent Covenant and Hexagrammic Ward are borderline game changers. The stuff you can pull off with them is amazing. Being able to nigh guarantee turning off a unit's Storm Shields is outstanding. Swatting aside a Relic Thunder Hammer is priceless.

I'm not a big fan of stacking strength buffs. If you're S5-6, you're strong enough to beat up most things with help from VotLW. Relying on three or four buffs to be able to hurt something is really vulnerable to a moving part failing on you. Extra attacks and rerolls are far more reliable IME.

Chaos Daemons allies are a really powerful moving part. Some of them, you can summon in, some of them, you really benefit from having in a detachment to gain an extra Locus. (This also opens up the Possession stratagem, which has excellent synergy with MoP.)

A Poxbringer can effectively give you rolling VotLW on a melee unit, and if it's not summoned then it can also make them spew out mortal wounds. A Gnarlmaw can make deployed units extremely resilient to losing first turn and taking fire - and opens the door to warptiming a unit into charging on the first turn.

A Khorne hero in your army list can currently give daemon engines rerolls to charge, but that role's future is uncertain with the new Core rules rolling out.

A summoned Changeling is a great addition to a Tzeentch possessed 3++ blob. D2 weapons are going to become a lot more common, and it's aura reduces their effectiveness by a third. You can also get some handy unit buffs from a summoned Herald.

Deploying a Slaanesh Daemons Vanguard gives you a lot of fall back denial, and a load of first turn advance & charge, and potentially a bonus round of attacks on a unit.

Lots of good info here, thanks ! I don't think I'm going to play Daemons though, I don't like mixing up codices and I'm not fond of most of the Daemon models sadly.

I skipped on the Ashen Axe, but it's a great relic indeed ! It's very powerful to be able to lock a unit forever. You don't even have to be able to destroy the unit, locking a horde of 20 Plaguebearers or something in place forever neutralises them. Though with the profile of the weapon it can kill anything more or less reliably. Running the Chaos Lord with Exalted Possession seems like a good idea to have more power with +1A, +1S and +1" move no ?

If the Dark Apostle on foot is better for his prayers (as I suspected), is my idea of a 20 Possessed blob on foot a bad one or not ? They're not slow but they're not fast either, they could get shot at, tarpitted or something in the meantime... I suppose it can be fun and powerful in more casual games, but in competitive I guess the Dark Apostle is better off buffing shooting units ?

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack vs Flying Daemon Prince, which would you take ? And Havocs vs Obliterators for anti-high Toughness, which is a better idea ? Obliterators look more resilient.

**macluvin**

I personally would not try to put possessed on a table for a competitive game. Without massive support they are such a points sink that does almost nothing. They swing 2-4 attacks on the charge raw, which for the price, about the only thing they got on berserkers is mark of Slaanesh for the charge strat and 5++ and an extra wound. Which the marine meta may neuter all of those bonuses if things like heavy bolters with d2 and ap -1, see more tables... which turns your possessed into more expensive and less effective berserkers for all intents and purposes. A huge part of all of this is we have no idea what changes will accompany our codex release and how some of those things will change.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I would love to play possessed in a casual game. Also berserkers of course swing garunteed almost twice as much which I forgot to include in the comparison.

In a casual game I would totally play a Word Bearers army with a dark apostle master of possession and horde of possessed and maybe even spawn and other gribblies and of course loyal followers of either chosen or chaos space marine tac squads....

**Aaranis**

But Berzerkers have no way to get a 4++ do they ? In every game I played against Berzerkers (in 8th) they did one good fight sometimes and then got shot horribly. Having double the wounds and an invulnerable save looks pretty good no ?

I trust your experience, just asking questions

**lindsay40k**

All non-primaris Space Marine profiles are getting revised in the coming period, with 2W being standard. No clues as to what this means for Possessed, though

**macluvin**

Aaranis wrote:
But Berzerkers have no way to get a 4++ do they ? In every game I played against Berzerkers (in 8th) they did one good fight sometimes and then got shot horribly. Having double the wounds and an invulnerable save looks pretty good no ?

I trust your experience, just asking questions

I mean if you shoot a heavy bolter at them they are saving d2 so the wound does nothing without a fnp equivalent buff and the 4++ means nothing against ap1 like what the heavy bolter got. That sort of weaponry is going to be incredibly common come next month as well. At least the berserkers will kill something. Terminators are something entirely differently worth considering as well. I’m not saying that possessed are terrible, I’m saying they shouldn’t be used in the same sentence as the word competitive. Like, I would bring possessed in a fluffy word bearers list out for a fun casual game. I would laugh maniacally as my diabolical and foul magiks make them into tough to kill fast little murder machines. I certainly would not try to bring an optimized possessed list to a competitive match, however. Unless they got obsec equivalent rules in a word bearers list...

lindsay40k wrote:
All non-primaris Space Marine profiles are getting revised in the coming period, with 2W being standard. No clues as to what this means for Possessed, though

I completely agree. An extra wound on possessed would put them in that odd niche of not really being lethal (especially considering the overall increase in lethality even comparatively with a slight increase in survivability) but being tough as nails to put down. Plus we don’t know what else they are doing with the profile so maybe we’ll get extra attacks on the profile as well. The rando attacks that range from craptastic to moderately decent/honestly how they should be hitting every time has been my major issue with possessed. In fact d2 attacks would make the randumb attacks at worst decent against a niche of targets that it wouldn’t be such a terrible thing. I just don’t think that possessed are going to be competitive until the next codex release all things considered and I don’t think they’ve been competitive at all since I started playing in 7th.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
But in 8th they’ve certainly come a long way and word bearers have plenty of tools to mitigate the problems possessed shouldn’t have had at that price point in the first place. And like I said. They definitely have a place on a casual table.

**ArcaneHorror**

lindsay40k wrote:We don't know what Warpsmiths will do - quite possibly be a chaos lord for vehicles - and IMO Lords have a few remaining niches

Fly alongside rhinos full of shock troops without taking up space

Jump with hammer

Gunline marshall

Gadzilla666 wrote: It depends on the Legion. A Night Lords army without a jump lord just doesn't seem right.

These are all good points. I might give one a pack to keep up with berzerker-filled rhinos.

About possessed, to make them better, I think that they need more distinction due to individual marks. Maybe Tzeentch possessed units could cast one smite per turn like horrors can, Nurgle ones get disgusting resilience and/or the plague weapon ability during attacks, Khorne ones get the locus of rage when in proximity with other Khorne daemons, and Slaanesh ones get quicksilver swiftness.

**lindsay40k**

I’ll be surprised if 9ed Possessed don’t get 2W or D3W attacks by standard. The Astartes wound count is absolutely framing things in terms of ‘Space Marine basic troops are similar to most army’s elites’, with elite roles widely getting access to anti-space marine weapons (the rollout of D2 weapons), and Space Marine elites gaining access *and resistance* to those weapons. W3 might be a bit of a reach, notwithstanding a new kit that makes them built like Reivers and as big as Gravis, but it’d certainly make them really look and feel the part as Lorgar’s HH trump card

**Aaranis**

Yeah lots of Chaos units are in need of a remake. Possessed, Bikers, Berzerkers (I can't look at them without hurting my eyes honestly), Raptors and Warp Talons, Defilers... But seeing what's happening meanwhile in the Xenos range they need a lot of love too.

What does a competitive Chaos army looks like nowadays ? I guess Cultist spam is kinda dead, in favour or Plague Marines or something. Are Havocs and Terminators any good ?

**Abaddon303**

I've started to try to compare a few units in the codex for resilience since sitting and holding an objective cheaply is so important in this edition.
It's so difficult since durability is dependent on what is being fired at them. This is how far I've gotten:

3 Mutilators 105pts
9 wounds 3x3 T4 2+ 5++
Bolters 161
H.Bolter 31 (2D assumed)

5 Spawn 115pts
20 wounds 5x4 T5 5+
Bolters 135
H.Bolter 36

6 P. Marines 108pts
6 wounds T5 3+ 5+++
Bolters 122
H.Bolter 41

Not very far but I might add to this as I go. It's made me really consider Mutilators though. They're more resistant to bolters than the same points of p.marines and spawn, the lack of T5 hurts them when you start considering heavy bolters but in all honesty you're probably more likely looking at getting hit with the plethora of S4 weapons with -1 or -2ap that primaris have available to them...
Interested to hear what people are thinking?

**ArcaneHorror**

What's the best loadout for a Hellforged Predator? I'm going to give it at least one flame weapon since it's oriented towards melee combat, but I'm not sure if I should either put on the heavy bolters or autocannon to give it some long-ranged firepower, or go all in with the flamers (btw, I'm converting a Baal Predator so I don't have access to the full weapons load out, though I could possibly buy any of the other weapons separately, so any opinions on those would be worthwhile as well).

**Abaddon303**

i have one I haven't used in ages but I'm tempted to roll it out again. I intended to try it out again when the Baal preator got it's range boost, presuming the FW rules would be updated at the time too. Classic GW.
With the 12" range now being universal I think go all in on the flamers, it strikes me as a great move blocker

**Reivax26**

Yeah a Hellforged Predator decked out all flamers running with Rhinos filled with close combat troops sounds like a good plan to me.

The Predator clears the screen and the troops take objectives or get in position to pull off some crucial charges while using the Rhinos and Predator as cover.

**lindsay40k**

Hellforged flamepredator is a definite candidate for Warptime in some cases

Just a shame it can only Overwatch once in a phase

**lindsay40k**

What’s the craic with Alpha Legion these days? I’ve been musing on adding a small detachment to my black crusade. I’m thinking nice and simple: a full unit of Oblits to send up into the middle, a horde of Heretacs with Chaincannons to go with them and enable concealment, a biker sniper Lord with Viper’s Bite to be an annoying swine (probably with a TH, so he can also put his range to use as a scarecrow), and either a Sorcerer with Prescience and DA to toughen up the screen and enhance the gunners, or else a Master of Possession to cast Mutated Invigoration and either use a Familiar to get Prescience or else go BoN fishing with Incursion. Cute little Patrol that can fit into most of my Daemonkin lists.

Basically an excuse to do up some Centurions with Possessed bits and make a biker Lord posed like the GSC sniper.

**l0k1**

With the changes to Heavy Bolters(with Prescience/Endless Cacophony/VoTLW) are they better at taking down light vehicles now than Autocannons?

**Abaddon303**

lindsay40k wrote:
What’s the craic with Alpha Legion these days? I’ve been musing on adding a small detachment to my black crusade. I’m thinking nice and simple: a full unit of Oblits to send up into the middle, a horde of Heretacs with Chaincannons to go with them and enable concealment, a biker sniper Lord with Viper’s Bite to be an annoying swine (probably with a TH, so he can also put his range to use as a scarecrow), and either a Sorcerer with Prescience and DA to toughen up the screen and enhance the gunners, or else a Master of Possession to cast Mutated Invigoration and either use a Familiar to get Prescience or else go BoN fishing with Incursion. Cute little Patrol that can fit into most of my Daemonkin lists.

Basically an excuse to do up some Centurions with Possessed bits and make a biker Lord posed like the GSC sniper.

Biker lord can't take a thunder hammer unfortunately. Although considering they are now legends you might as well run them with whatever your opponent agrees...

**Not Online!!!**

lindsay40k wrote:
What’s the craic with Alpha Legion these days? I’ve been musing on adding a small detachment to my black crusade. I’m thinking nice and simple: a full unit of Oblits to send up into the middle, a horde of Heretacs with Chaincannons to go with them and enable concealment, a biker sniper Lord with Viper’s Bite to be an annoying swine (probably with a TH, so he can also put his range to use as a scarecrow), and either a Sorcerer with Prescience and DA to toughen up the screen and enhance the gunners, or else a Master of Possession to cast Mutated Invigoration and either use a Familiar to get Prescience or else go BoN fishing with Incursion. Cute little Patrol that can fit into most of my Daemonkin lists.

Basically an excuse to do up some Centurions with Possessed bits and make a biker Lord posed like the GSC sniper.

can work, a bit CP intensive though because AL.
I do reccomend the ilussionary DA for a cultist blob (3x10 or 2x 10 and 1x 30 to tae advantage of the tide?)
On heretacs i am a bit split, i do myself have some for my AL, but MSU is kinda needed to get a bit more out of their durability.
If you want a TH vipersbite lord with headhunter i'd make one with jumppack simply because that option is not legended..

**lindsay40k**

I don’t bother with DA’s if they’re not a WB or carrying a legion DA relic, only doing a single prayer and being unable to Reroll a fail is a hard pass for me

**Not Online!!!**

lindsay40k wrote:
I don’t bother with DA’s if they’re not a WB or carrying a legion DA relic, only doing a single prayer and being unable to Reroll a fail is a hard pass for me

your loss, cult leader illusiory is a fun little combination for a fluffy AL army.

**Abaddon303**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
What's the best loadout for a Hellforged Predator? I'm going to give it at least one flame weapon since it's oriented towards melee combat, but I'm not sure if I should either put on the heavy bolters or autocannon to give it some long-ranged firepower, or go all in with the flamers (btw, I'm converting a Baal Predator so I don't have access to the full weapons load out, though I could possibly buy any of the other weapons separately, so any opinions on those would be worthwhile as well).

the flamestorm on the Baal Predator has now gone to a frankly massive 18". Hopefully this time FW follow suit...