Inspired by the Necrons good/bad thread, I ask you this: are there any good guys in 40k? Face it:
Marines are like modern day Islamists, fighting and killing everything they see with religion as an excess. They're also space racist.
Cadia is a militarian state which forces almost everyone into their army just to get killed.
Tau are space commies
Chaos is... Well, Chaos
Necrons are robots wanting to kill everyone

Tyranids

No entire faction is "good" but there are good people among IoM, non-dark eldar and tau as well as other groups and species not represented on the table top.

Good is a point of view, Anakin.

War isn't about who's wrong and who's right, it's about who's left at the end.

There are certainly good guys. But no good factions..
I think the best might be Tyranid, I see them as True Neutral.
That's because they are not intelligent enough to be good or evil.

Let's look at Wikipedia:
LG: A Lawful Good nation would consist of a well-organized government that works for the benefit of its citizens.
NG: A Neutral Good character is guided by his conscience and typically acts altruistically, without regard for or against Lawful precepts such as rules or tradition.
CG: A Chaotic Good character favors change for a greater good, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well.

Do you think any WH40k works by those standards?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism


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Kangodo wrote:
There are certainly good guys. But no good factions..
I think the best might be Tyranid, I see them as True Neutral.
That's because they are not intelligent enough to be good or evil.

Let's look at Wikipedia:
LG: A Lawful Good nation would consist of a well-organized government that works for the benefit of its citizens.
NG: A Neutral Good character is guided by his conscience and typically acts altruistically, without regard for or against Lawful precepts such as rules or tradition.
CG: A Chaotic Good character favors change for a greater good, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well.

Do you think any WH40k works by those standards?

D&D uses objective alignment. The Eldar are subjectively LG from their cultural standards (weight the lives of our own over anyone else), they're objectively dicks.

There is no good and bad. There are those who die or live on the battlefield, and the weak, and the strong. Good is a point of view. If I were to thoroughly believe that Chancellor Palpatine is right, and the Jedi are wrong, does that make Palpatine good, and the Jedi evil? No, it does not.

From my point of view the Jedi are evil!

Bad movie lines aside, I think the only 'good guys' are Renegades and Rogue Traders. Renegades in the 'anti-Imperium' sense, not 'pro-Chaos'. It's only in the reaches of the Segmentum Obscura that aliens are not killed instantly, people aren't burned for having bad dreams and overall the bureaucratic apathy of the Imperium is nothing but a distant and irrelevant concept. Good guys aren't something for the Tabletop though. It's more of a fluff thing.

The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

HOLD ON EVERYONE, IM GOING IN DEEP!


There is no good, there is no bad. All there is are our actions and the events that are reactions to those actions.

/Dropsmic

For real, though, you can find good and bad in every single faction. Pretty silly question to ask, who is the good guy. So, to answer your question, no, there are no white knights.

I think it's one of the best things about 40K, that you can look at the different factions and go "Mmmyeah, they're all freaking horrible. But I like those guy's way of genocide more than those other guys, so those are my pick."

Seriously though, 40K is about desperation to me, and how desperate times call for relative morals and deeds so henious, nothing can really support it - Because we're far beyond the point where you need morals. More importantly though, it makes the few morally complex and steadfast characters and factions in the universe seem so much stronger for defying the norm.

There are no good guys in 40k. The imperium absolutely evil but believes everyone else is evil. Eldar are the most arrogant race in the galaxy that think nothing of the other races and want to restore their empire. Dark eldar are the same but they never try to hide it or pretend its something its not. Tau definatley are not good guys as they practice systematic genocides and eugenics by banning all interspecies mingling and cleansing any undesirable elements and also by ritualisticly brainwashing entire species to serve their oligarchy. Necrons seek to restore their living bodies so that they can be free from their curse and will annihilate anything that stands in their way. Chaos only wants to corrupt and costume reality. And finally orks only know how to figt and will fight at any given opprotunity

I personally think Chaos are the morally strongest. Sure, they ARE Chaos, they feth up planets and all that, but they're not Space Nazi's, they're just influenced by the wrong religions.

Every race has some good guys. As an example, I ran into Vargard Obyron in Dublin and he was a really nice soft spoken Necron. Oby is a big Tron fan.

Being morally strongest has nothing to do with being good or bad. Morality is the stuff of religion and control. For someone to be the "good guy" you should only look at their operational belief system, otherwise known as actions.

Chaos are the true good guys, showing humanity the truth behind the veil. Better to live the truth than cower behind the emperors lies

 changerofways wrote:
HOLD ON EVERYONE, IM GOING IN DEEP!


There is no good, there is no bad. All there is are our actions and the events that are reactions to those actions.

/Dropsmic

I think I've hated that ridiculous meme the first time I saw it. And it's getting old.

In an unstoppable war of total destruction, the only ethical choice is to be on the winning side.

Or to be orks.

 koooaei wrote:
Or to be orks.

Yeah. Orks.

 nwns wrote:
Tyranids

Exactly, they just want to eat.

 Matthew wrote:
Tau are space commies

Not really.


Anyhow, Sisters of Battle, of course. They will burn you for heresy, but it is for your own good!

Orks, Orks, Orks, Orks.

They are not vindictive, they are not evil. They are simply... boisterous.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Orks, Orks, Orks, Orks.

They are not vindictive, they are not evil. They are simply... boisterous.

Ya exactly, all the other races will lie and cheat to win. Orks just want to have a good time!

Tyranids.. not exactly "good" but closer to neutral by far, than any other race

I was thinking the other day that Dark Eldar might just be Chaotic Good guys.... Why do they do the things they do? Because they don't want Slaanesh to eat their souls of course! Their continued existence in their opinion relies on them doing what they do, they just happen to enjoy it! Doesn't make them bad, but definitely doesn't make them good.

The part that makes them good is that they quite often help people! Mind you they want something for kit but they do just come out and help. Eldar being rekt by Tyranids? Here comes Vect to save the day! Tau being rekt by Tyranids? Here comes a random Haemunculous to save the day! They're always just randomly helping Eldar and leaving. Odd time they help other races too, sure in the grand scheme of things they're jerks, but they do it out of necessity. Sort of.


Point being; I think they're one of the "good" factions in that they do out aside their desires and what not to help the lesser beings once in awhile, even if they do want something in return. They could have simply just taken it. I would toss it up that Dark Eldar have the abilities to even take Terra and destroy t if they wanted, but they must not if they haven't bothered! (Before hate comes flying at me, DE steal suns. It wouldn't be a huge deal to them to open a big webway portal above Terra and launch a sun at it.)


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But then again I guess even Necrons randomly help people sometimes, like the Tau and Blood Angels, meh, in a galaxy of A**Holes, who do you decide is the best?

We are talking about the universe where "there is only war". Every side believes they are the good side how else can you justify all those dead bodies, with out turning your gun round and blowing your brains out.

 Matthew wrote:
I personally think Chaos are the morally strongest. Sure, they ARE Chaos, they feth up planets and all that, but they're not Space Nazi's, they're just influenced by the wrong religions.

that excuse holds for chaos but doesn't hold for the Imperium of man? psst your bias is showing
Honestly the IoM are hardly space nazis anyway (the IoM could never be that centralized even if they had to) and I think this is where people grow confused. the IoM is pretty lose handed on their people as a whole. worship the emperor, and contribute to society are really the only requirements. you also have the psyker round up, but there's more then sufficant evidance that it's the lesser of two evils. and THAT is what 40k is about. not good vs evil but "whom is the lesser evil" and the IoM for humanity at least proably IS the lesser evil. which is the terrifying thing.

From an ideology standpoint - Tau (while the current ethereal motives are not known)

From a broad standpoint - Tyranid. They are just a natural force of consumption. No greed, no envy - just the need to feed.

Orks fall into a similar spectrum of Tyranid, however they are driven by the base need to fight. This need does not determine their survival, so as such is classified more on the "evil" spectrum.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say tau. Go ask any chinese person what they think of "co-prosperity" and you'll see why the only difference between tau and the imperium is what language they choose to use in their propaganda.

Anyways, as said above, the only good guys in the galgaxy is the faction that you're a part of. The Imperium may be awful, but if you're a human it's your best shake at life. If you're eldar, you may live a life of aescetic slavery, but at least your soul isn't eaten. If you're orks, you live in a super-violent dystopia, but at least you're guaranteed to die doing what you love, etc. etc.

A couple years ago I would have said no, but honestly with the current lore and GW's direction of the IP, the Imperium, or at least part of it, really is now the "good guys".

 Ailaros wrote:
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say tau. Go ask any chinese person what they think of "co-prosperity" and you'll see why the only difference between tau and the imperium is what language they choose to use in their propaganda.

Anyways, as said above, the only good guys in the galgaxy is the faction that you're a part of. The Imperium may be awful, but if you're a human it's your best shake at life. If you're eldar, you may live a life of aescetic slavery, but at least your soul isn't eaten. If you're orks, you live in a super-violent dystopia, but at least you're guaranteed to die doing what you love, etc. etc.

and it's worth noting that they deliberatly choose that loaded term. had they wanted a more politically neutral term that ment more or less the same thing there was, after all, the word "commonwealth" the fact that they choose a term indeliably tied to WW2 Imperial Japan was almost certinly intended to cast the Tau in a slightly sinister light

Yeah, generally the more vile destructive one's behavior, the more vague and higher-moral-sounding words they use to describe it. Everybody likes civil liberties, which is why they can use such a boring, technical term to describe it like "civil liberties".

Meanwhile, communists murdered more people than died in both world wars combined through starvation, and that was "international solidarity", millions thrown into forced labor prisons as "protection against bourgeois oppression". Meanwhile the nazis had their "final solution". The "new people" were those the khmer rouge murdered by the millions.

But no, a state-enforced policy of "greater good", especially on conquered peoples. That's definitely going to go well...

Tau like to say they're good. But they're about as good as Stalins Russia, one for all and all for Stalin. If you don't like it straight to the Gulag.

I don't see why people consider the Eldar anything else than good guys.

Like every entity, they put their own survival above that of others, that's far from unethical.

morgoth wrote:
I don't see why people consider the Eldar anything else than good guys.

Like every entity, they put their own survival above that of others, that's far from unethical.

The same could be said of the IoM and Tau. Would you call them good?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
I personally think Chaos are the morally strongest. Sure, they ARE Chaos, they feth up planets and all that, but they're not Space Nazi's, they're just influenced by the wrong religions.

that excuse holds for chaos but doesn't hold for the Imperium of man? psst your bias is showing
Honestly the IoM are hardly space nazis anyway (the IoM could never be that centralized even if they had to) and I think this is where people grow confused. the IoM is pretty lose handed on their people as a whole. worship the emperor, and contribute to society are really the only requirements. you also have the psyker round up, but there's more then sufficant evidance that it's the lesser of two evils. and THAT is what 40k is about. not good vs evil but "whom is the lesser evil" and the IoM for humanity at least proably IS the lesser evil. which is the terrifying thing.

I cannot quite agree with your view of the Imperium. It's not just worship the Emprah. It's worship the Tyrant of Terra in the right way, have the right genome, forego all ideas of individual thought, freedom (freedoms granted by your planet are of no consequence, when the imperium calls you are no more than a slave) and advancement (trust the toaster worshippers! ) and most important of all, pay your tithes. All of them, no matter what happens, even if your entire world starves. The Imperium is the very source of it's troubles and thanks to it's constant stagnation (and even regression in some areas) the ultimate doom of mankind. Of course, Chaos and Tyranidsare, if not checked, the imidiate doom of mankind so the lesser of two evils aspect might still be true.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I don't see why people consider the Eldar anything else than good guys.

Like every entity, they put their own survival above that of others, that's far from unethical.

The same could be said of the IoM and Tau. Would you call them good?

Not quite.

The Empire mistreats its citizens, the Tau brainwash theirs.

There's a world of difference between them and the Eldar.

Depends on your definition of good and evil. All factions tend to do horrible things and have evil characters in them. That being said you can still look at a faction as "good guys" who have to do lesser evils for the sake of a greater good. I.E. The Eldar remorselessly destroys an imperial colony/city because it has a chaotic relic or is falling under the sway of chaos. The eldar wont distinguish between loyalist and chaos corrupted when they attack. This can easily be seen as evil, especially by the imperium who may not have even known the chaos taint was present. It would just seem like a random attack. However to the eldar it may be a necessary evil with good outcomes such as saving countless lives among their own people and even saving more imperials than are lost in the attack.
Personally the eldar have always felt the closest to good guys in my mind, but I can at least see how people would call them evil. So yeah its mostly a matter of perception.

Redseer wrote:
Depends on your definition of good and evil. All factions tend to do horrible things and have evil characters in them. That being said you can still look at a faction as "good guys" who have to do lesser evils for the sake of a greater good. I.E. The Eldar remorselessly destroys an imperial colony/city because it has a chaotic relic or is falling under the sway of chaos. The eldar wont distinguish between loyalist and chaos corrupted when they attack. This can easily be seen as evil, especially by the imperium who may not have even known the chaos taint was present. It would just seem like a random attack. However to the eldar it may be a necessary evil with good outcomes such as saving countless lives among their own people and even saving more imperials than are lost in the attack.
Personally the eldar have always felt the closest to good guys in my mind, but I can at least see how people would call them evil. So yeah its mostly a matter of perception.

That's ridiculous.

The actions the Eldar undertake that do result in some members of the inferior races dying are always done for survival's sake.

There is nothing evil in sacrificing inferior races for survival, every good guy does it in every story ever.

morgoth wrote:


There is nothing evil in sacrificing inferior races for survival, every good guy does it in every story ever.

I must have missed this part in Romeo and Juliet.

Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Doesn't make them "good", I don't think we'd argue that just because you don't acknowledge a creature's sentience makes it okay to kill them willy-nilly.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

Actually, I think this kind of shows why you can't consider Orks or Nids "good guys". You can argue that they're just doing their natural thing, but then flip it around: is it evil to kill Nids or Orks? I'd argue "no", because their natural inclination is death and destruction, therefore killing them is basically self-defense.

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Oh, so they are like Nazis then?

Alcibiades wrote:

morgoth wrote:


There is nothing evil in sacrificing inferior races for survival, every good guy does it in every story ever.

I must have missed this part in Romeo and Juliet.

Do they not eat any meat in that play ?

Or drink wine ?


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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Doesn't make them "good", I don't think we'd argue that just because you don't acknowledge a creature's sentience makes it okay to kill them willy-nilly.

If a human tries to not harm inferior beings such as other mammals and lower, isn't he being good ?

Because Eldar act exactly like that, they don't ever kill humans for no reason.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Oh, so they are like Nazis then?

They would be like Nazis, if they were genetically close to humans, and only different in culture.

In other words, they're as close to Nazis as you or me. (just in case, I'm not a fan of square mustaches or red armbands)


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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

Actually, I think this kind of shows why you can't consider Orks or Nids "good guys". You can argue that they're just doing their natural thing, but then flip it around: is it evil to kill Nids or Orks? I'd argue "no", because their natural inclination is death and destruction, therefore killing them is basically self-defense.

Well, Nids are like Sharks or Lions.

Do you feel that Sharks or Lions are bad ?

I wouldn't call them good either. Just neutral.

If you want a faction that believes it is good, then Tau, Eldar and the Imperium are right there. If you're lookinf for an actually morally upright faction, the previous three probably encountered it and destroyed it.

morgoth wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

Actually, I think this kind of shows why you can't consider Orks or Nids "good guys". You can argue that they're just doing their natural thing, but then flip it around: is it evil to kill Nids or Orks? I'd argue "no", because their natural inclination is death and destruction, therefore killing them is basically self-defense.

Well, Nids are like Sharks or Lions.

Do you feel that Sharks or Lions are bad ?

I wouldn't call them good either. Just neutral.

IMHO there is a pretty big difference between a shark/lion and a Tyranid. Earth's predators tend to be very limited in their ranges (eg, sharks are stuck in specific patches of the ocean) and numbers. The level of destruction wrought by all of the earth's predators compared to even a single hive fleet is an astronomical difference. Not to mention that us, as humans, are rarely actually threatened by these creatures, whereas Tyranids and Orks actively pursue everything to kill them.

Either way though, whether they're "neutral" or not, the point I was making is that you can't really consider them the "good guys" by any means. Whether they intend harm or not, they aren't exactly in a position to be considered the "heroes". Narratively, they're meant to be kind of one-dimensional hordes to be overcome.

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

Heil the Emperor!

 Matthew wrote:
I personally think Chaos are the morally strongest. Sure, they ARE Chaos, they feth up planets and all that, but they're not Space Nazi's, they're just influenced by the wrong religions.

Right, they're Space Objectivists. Which is, in the balance, worse.

SALAMANDERS only good thing in the Galaxy you see them and wave they will wave back I guarantee it

I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

 nwns wrote:
Tyranids

Exalted, I don't laugh near often enough, thanks.

Thousand Sons are the good guys of course...

Just as a sidenote...marines killing everyone and everything? Xerox yeah but. Any chapters protect the civilians quite Heavy Salamanders for example

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

Tau cannot be analogized with communism because they expressly go against communist ideals. Communism seeks to create a classless society. The conflict of the classes is what has caused all of the conflict in the past, and what shall cause conflict in the future. Once classes are removed, there will no longer be conflict. By distinguishing classes you are defining people on what they have and what they do not have. People will then seek to take what they do not have by taking from those that have. Those that have, will attempt to secure their position via a system of governance. According to the lore the ethereals manipulate the tau species via pheromones, and crafted a the system of governance that makes the species complacent. They have only convinced the people that they have a defined purpose, and a way with which to achieve that purpose. The purpose that they the people have been convinced of is then the way whereby the ethereals continue to accrue and hold onto power.

TLDR: not communists they are manipulated into believing they have a "just" system.

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

Their fetish about genetical (racial) purity and the constant (if in the imperial case somewhat justified) scaremongering about outside influences certainly gives them a nazi vibe.
Although it could also be argued that both forms of totalitarism (that is, nazism and stalinism) have more in common than the proponents of both would ever have acknowledged.
Of course, being the worst of both worlds makes the Imperium even more grimdark without even having to add anymore skulls to the setting \o/

 Opera wrote:
Thousand Sons are the good guys of course...

Exalted!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

Are these million rats sentient? Essentialy all major 40k races except the Tyranids and perhaps Daemons are human in that they seem to share our concept of sentience. They just wear different makeup and a nice hat for easy identification.

KingDeath wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

Their fetish about genetical (racial) purity and the constant (if in the imperial case somewhat justified) scaremongering about outside influences certainly gives them a nazi vibe.
Although it could also be argued that both forms of totalitarism (that is, nazism and stalinism) have more in common than the proponents of both would ever have acknowledged.
Of course, being the worst of both worlds makes the Imperium even more grimdark without even having to add anymore skulls to the setting \o/

sure, except yet again how does Chaos get a pass for this while the IoM doesn't? chaos practices blood sacrifice, slavery and all sorts of other things. whereas honestly the IoM in most peoples lives is proably pretty distant.

KingDeath wrote:
Are these million rats sentient?

Are rat sentient? That is a question humans are asking themselves. And they do not all agree on it. Are humans sentient? That is a question Eldars are asking themselves. Certainly they do not all agree on it either.

In the grimdark darkgrimness of the 41st millenium (with extra skullz...), everybody's a dick, and everybody but the Orks and Tyranids are pretty openly malicious dicks. Orks are rambunctious, boisterous, and party a bit hard for anyone else's liking, but maintain, and, oddly enough, hold to a code of honor that isn't predicated entirely on species. They are destructive, yes, but one could hardly push that needle past neutral, given their inborn need to fight, they're like children. Tyranids, on the otther hand, are no more evil than any other ravening, voracious animal.

So, riddle me this, are toddlers and puppies evil? Because that's what these two are.

KingDeath wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

Their fetish about genetical (racial) purity and the constant (if in the imperial case somewhat justified) scaremongering about outside influences certainly gives them a nazi vibe.
Although it could also be argued that both forms of totalitarism (that is, nazism and stalinism) have more in common than the proponents of both would ever have acknowledged.
Of course, being the worst of both worlds makes the Imperium even more grimdark without even having to add anymore skulls to the setting \o/

Except the Imperium doesn't give a flying feth about race or sexuality. They couldn't care less if you're gay or bisexual, and even less if you're black or asian. The only time the Imperium cares about "racial purity" is when people start growing fur, multiple eyes, multiple arms, and horns. Otherwise they tolerate numerous mutants just fine, including Ratlings, Ogryns, Pelagers, etc.


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 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

The lives of those who aren't your species are meaningless. I would happily kill a million sentient alines to save a handful of humans, just as I would happily kill quadrillions of sentient aliens to save the human race (or dine on near-sentient animals like pigs, which are extremely intelligent but suffer the misfortune of being delicious).

You only owe allegiance to your own species. Aliens or animals from your own ecosystem are simply expendable resources.

 Matthew wrote:
Are there any 'good guys' in 40K?

Yeah ... Forge World.

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

Nowhere close.

Humans are to Eldar what Cows are to Humans.

Does the Imperium treat the cows any better ? nope. it's even worse. At least the Eldar don't kill humans for anything else than survival (sport, taste,...)

The Imperium is horrible to many of its citizens, Eldar aren't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

Are these million rats sentient? Essentialy all major 40k races except the Tyranids and perhaps Daemons are human in that they seem to share our concept of sentience. They just wear different makeup and a nice hat for easy identification.

Rats are sentient yes. They're clearly a few steps back in terms of evolution, like humans are to Eldar.

KingDeath wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

Are these million rats sentient? Essentialy all major 40k races except the Tyranids and perhaps Daemons are human in that they seem to share our concept of sentience. They just wear different makeup and a nice hat for easy identification.

Exactly, they may be less-evolved, but humans and eldar are basically sentient equals. If you think I'm exaggerating, imagine what sort of uproar would happen if we cloned a proto-human and then performed invasive experiments on it.

Dronze wrote:
In the grimdark darkgrimness of the 41st millenium (with extra skullz...), everybody's a dick, and everybody but the Orks and Tyranids are pretty openly malicious dicks. Orks are rambunctious, boisterous, and party a bit hard for anyone else's liking, but maintain, and, oddly enough, hold to a code of honor that isn't predicated entirely on species. They are destructive, yes, but one could hardly push that needle past neutral, given their inborn need to fight, they're like children. Tyranids, on the otther hand, are no more evil than any other ravening, voracious animal.

So, riddle me this, are toddlers and puppies evil? Because that's what these two are.

The question isn't whether they're evil or worse than everyone else, the question is whether they're "good guys", which is a resounding no.

How would you define 'good guys'.... the way it is used in this discussion it doesn't really exist in the real world either...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly, they may be less-evolved, but humans and eldar are basically sentient equals.

Ahahah, not even close. The problem is that it is pretty hard to convey this because the authors are all still humans, but the Eldar are supposed to be, or at least consider themselves, as much much more evolved than the mon-keigh. Just like we consider ourselves superior to monkeys. Even though monkeys have been able to understand the use of tools, and concepts like injustice.
Humans are to eldars what monkeys are to humans. Keep this in mind when considering whether the eldars are acting in a moral fashion or not.
[edit]And more importantly, keep this in mind when considering whether we humans are acting in a moral fashion too![/edit]

Short answer? No, not from an objective standpoint.

Orks.
Orks are mainly fighting for the fun and are least prone to speciism or anything that qualifies as genuine evil.

Tyranids as well. They just want to feed and evolve. Once you get past that whole mindset of "eating civilizations and stripping planets of all their biomass is evil"-restriction, they are no worse than any carnivore, they just have the better tools.

Are any of those the typical white knights in shining armor? No. But that would not fit in a true grimdark setting anyways, so chaotic neutral is the best you'll get.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly, they may be less-evolved, but humans and eldar are basically sentient equals.

Ahahah, not even close. The problem is that it is pretty hard to convey this because the authors are all still humans, but the Eldar are supposed to be, or at least consider themselves, as much much more evolved than the mon-keigh. Just like we consider ourselves superior to monkeys. Even though monkeys have been able to understand the use of tools, and concepts like injustice.
Humans are to eldars what monkeys are to humans. Keep this in mind when considering whether the eldars are acting in a moral fashion or not.
[edit]And more importantly, keep this in mind when considering whether we humans are acting in a moral fashion too![/edit]

Humans are a lot more like Monkeys than Eldar are like Humans.

Honestly, a much fairer comparison would be cows or rats.

Those animals aren't completely slowed, but they just don't think and act like humans do.

killerdou wrote:
How would you define 'good guys'.... the way it is used in this discussion it doesn't really exist in the real world either...

That's why you should look at it from a narrative standpoint to figure out who they are. Take Sin City for example - basically everyone's morally dubious, but it's pretty clear to see that Marv and Dwight are the "good guys". Obviously there aren't any "good" forces in 40k, but IMHO, the easiest to define as the "good guys" from a narrative standpoint are Eldar, the Imperium and Tau. They fighting for survival in the name of some greater purpose which isn't obviously awful (unlike, say, Chaos Daemons) or at least better than all the other alternatives, they're outnumbered, outgunned and usually on the defensive. Obviously they all do some pretty horrible things, but when you're positioned as the "heroes" of a story then you can get away with that to some degree (eg, Neo gunning down humans in The Matrix). As I have said before, they're also better fleshed out than Orks and Tyranids, who end up being an easy source of conflict for our heroes to overcome. That also goes some way to explaining why Orks and Nids are rarely portrayed fighting the "bad guy" races (eg, in the battles in the Nids codex, the only ones that go into great detail are versus the Eldar, Imperium, Tau and Orks, although the Orks are mostly done so because the Imperium lured them into the conflict).

Orks enslave other races. The only real "good" in my opinion are Soul Drinker type renegades who mostly just want to save humanity from the imperium and IG meat shields who just want to live.

Eldar are probably the closest to 'good' in the galaxy.
They are focused on their own survival, but what sentient being isn't? Not to mention that the Eldar psyche lives on after-death, which can lead to eternal suffering, which makes Eldar self-preservation pretty reasonable.
The Craftworld Eldar also dedicate themselves to important tasks, such as watching over the eye of terror or stopping Necron tomb worlds from waking up and destroying the galaxy, or destroying worlds so that the Tyranids can't expand as fast.
But they do help other races, such as the Ethereal's being placed by the Eldar theory, or letting whatshisface into the Black Library to learn about Chaos.
In the Grand scheme of things Eldar are the only force that are working to save the galaxy. I mean one Eldar sacrificing him/herself is a huge deal, considering it means eternal pain and torment...
So yeah...
Eldar.

 TWilkins wrote:
Eldar are probably the closest to 'good' in the galaxy.
They are focused on their own survival, but what sentient being isn't? Not to mention that the Eldar psyche lives on after-death, which can lead to eternal suffering, which makes Eldar self-preservation pretty reasonable.
The Craftworld Eldar also dedicate themselves to important tasks, such as watching over the eye of terror or stopping Necron tomb worlds from waking up and destroying the galaxy, or destroying worlds so that the Tyranids can't expand as fast.
But they do help other races, such as the Ethereal's being placed by the Eldar theory, or letting whatshisface into the Black Library to learn about Chaos.
In the Grand scheme of things Eldar are the only force that are working to save the galaxy. I mean one Eldar sacrificing him/herself is a huge deal, considering it means eternal pain and torment...
So yeah...
Eldar.

And when the going gets tough for the Craft World Eldar, Dark Eldar are right behind them ready to take their hand and pull them out of that mess!(Iyanden) or just take that hand and go home. Whatever.

Eldar are massive arrogant pricks who will gladly condemn millions to die if it suits themselves.

The Tau are expansionist donkey-caves that spreads their own brand of tyranny across the stara.

The Imperium are those two put together and yet somehow worse. So, my answer is orks. Orks are just doing what they love.

Orks are massive donkeycaves that will gladly condemn millions to die just for their own fun, and that spread their own brand of tyranny (known as slavery) across the stars.
Sure, they are doing what they love! What they love is terrible though.

Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

The first good guy that springs to mind is an individual, it is Commissar Gaunt, from Gaunt's Ghosts novels. He's pure as snow, that guy.


Yeah, you meant are there good factions, but that's dumb. First of all, thinking in terms of factions enables all the gratuitous violence involved in this game.

Secondly, I think of Sweden as one of the Good countries, in contrast to some that are less free, etc. However, there are many, many issues I can think of that make it to say that a country as a whole, Sweden, is something you can call good guys or bad guys.

pelicaniforce wrote:
The first good guy that springs to mind is an individual, it is Commissar Gaunt, from Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

Oh, and Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM. He pretends to be cynical as hell, but really, he is a carebear .

Ehhh I dont get some of the Tau = genocidal evil stuff. They tend to be pretty nice about their conflicts. They swing by, "join or empire or else!" if you say yes, they take you in, give you work, give you food, clothing, purpose and a good standard of living, heck, they even care about you to some degree! If you say no, well they will decide to invade and kill you. Unlike pretty much any other faction they are the only one that gives you the option to surrender and live peacefully under their rule. Sure you lack choice, but its better to be safe and alive under their control then barely alive with a high chance of death under the tyranny of the IoM.

I'm pretty sure all that eugenics stuff came from the Dawn of War games and not any official fluff. Hell, they even tried to make friends with the Dark Eldar, who does that?

Tau are probably the least evil.

They will let you live in relative peace as long you follow their rules and don't cause trouble.

The others won't even give you that if you are not a member of their own race (and in some cases, not even than.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau are probably the least evil.

They will let you live in relative peace as long you follow their rules and don't cause trouble.

The others won't even give you that if you are not a member of their own race (and in some cases, not even than.)

Yay, Communism!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Orks are massive donkeycaves that will gladly condemn millions to die just for their own fun, and that spread their own brand of tyranny (known as slavery) across the stars.
Sure, they are doing what they love! What they love is terrible though.

That is true. Well, in that case I vote Imperium. Gotta represent mankind, yo.

That is the spirit! Humanity, feth yeah! Let us burn some xenos!

 Wyzilla wrote:


The lives of those who aren't your species are meaningless. I would happily kill a million sentient alines to save a handful of humans, just as I would happily kill quadrillions of sentient aliens to save the human race (or dine on near-sentient animals like pigs, which are extremely intelligent but suffer the misfortune of being delicious).

You only owe allegiance to your own species. Aliens or animals from your own ecosystem are simply expendable resources.

Exactly. My point was that no one is a "good guy" because it depends entirely on point of view.

 Ailaros wrote:
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say tau. Go ask any chinese person what they think of "co-prosperity" and you'll see why the only difference between tau and the imperium is what language they choose to use in their propaganda.

Anyways, as said above, the only good guys in the galgaxy is the faction that you're a part of. The Imperium may be awful, but if you're a human it's your best shake at life. If you're eldar, you may live a life of aescetic slavery, but at least your soul isn't eaten. If you're orks, you live in a super-violent dystopia, but at least you're guaranteed to die doing what you love, etc. etc.

While co-prosperity is despised as a Imperial Japanese propaganda, we the people of the Republic of China have absolutely no issue with the overly-saturated term "harmony"

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

YAR HAR A FIDDLE DEE DEE THE LIFE OF A PIRATE IS THE LIFE FOR ME, I DO WHAT I WANT CAUSE A PIRATE IS FREE.




Ontop of living forever, they also go out of their way to lend help hands here and there. When was the last time Orks helped somebody?

 Kosake wrote:
Orks.
Orks are mainly fighting for the fun and are least prone to speciism or anything that qualifies as genuine evil.

Tyranids as well. They just want to feed and evolve. Once you get past that whole mindset of "eating civilizations and stripping planets of all their biomass is evil"-restriction, they are no worse than any carnivore, they just have the better tools.

Are any of those the typical white knights in shining armor? No. But that would not fit in a true grimdark setting anyways, so chaotic neutral is the best you'll get.

I'd like to see typical white knights in shining armor running around eating and evolving.

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

It wouldnt work anyways. It would be like giving up heroine, cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes, and meth at the same time. The Eldar basically treat pain as a drug.

 Jollydevil wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

It wouldnt work anyways. It would be like giving up heroine, cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes, and meth at the same time. The Eldar basically treat pain as a drug.

but it's much more nuanced than that. The deldar feed to stave off she who thirsts... it's essentially their answer, as a result of the fall, to the eldar spirit stones and infinity circuits, and there's no telling if the commoraghans would even be compatible with these advances, especially in the light of their common lack of psionic capabilities of any type. It's not like any of us giving up a vice, but food. Lelith Hesperax uses no chemical enhancement, but still requires captured slaves or other victims in order to feed. Pair this with the haemonculi class, and it becomes yet more complex, as many of them are the ones holding the marker on some truly faustian debts. Commoragh would fall into mayhem if any sort of mass defection were to begin.

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

yet again many people have trouble sticking to diets even when they KNOW that "eating a giant poutine (Fries with gravy and cheese curds on it. Canadian cusine at it's finest) and super greasy burger every day" could lead to a heart attack

Dronze wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

It wouldnt work anyways. It would be like giving up heroine, cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes, and meth at the same time. The Eldar basically treat pain as a drug.

but it's much more nuanced than that. The deldar feed to stave off she who thirsts... it's essentially their answer, as a result of the fall, to the eldar spirit stones and infinity circuits, and there's no telling if the commoraghans would even be compatible with these advances, especially in the light of their common lack of psionic capabilities of any type. It's not like any of us giving up a vice, but food. Lelith Hesperax uses no chemical enhancement, but still requires captured slaves or other victims in order to feed. Pair this with the haemonculi class, and it becomes yet more complex, as many of them are the ones holding the marker on some truly faustian debts. Commoragh would fall into mayhem if any sort of mass defection were to begin.

Dark Eldar are compatible with the Tears of Isha, it was a plot point of Path of the Eldar. There's a risk of dying in the process of rebirth, but it's a small gamble compared to gaining the protection of the webway.

However there is also no reason to not simply join the Corsairs, as there are numerous Dark Eldar involved in their numbers who do not need to practice their former sadism to protect their souls.

But eventually the Corsairs will die. In which case theyre screwed.
Commoragh citizens get far more protection from she who thirsts, from cloning to power from pain.

Firstly, I think we need to define what we mean by "good guys". Personally, I would say that sacrifice of self for the benefit of others would be the foremost quality required.
If we accept this definition, we can already dismiss many of the absurd suggestions in this thread such as Orks and Tyranids. Orks are Chaotic Evil. The strongest rules, they regularly murder each other and their "economy" is based on slavery. Tyranids are willing to consume all life to keep itself going. No self sacrifice ever. Just kill, eat, breed, repeat. That anyone would suggest them as "good guys" is mind boggling.
The IoM as an institution is a horrid, tyrannical dystopia none of us would like to live in. Same for the Tau Empire where classes are ridgidly enforced.

As far as factions are concerned, the Farsight enclaves, with their democratic rule and looser classes are the closest to a mostly good faction. Some Space Marine chapters could also potentially be good guys, such as the Salamamders, Lamentors and even Ultramarines.

As for individuals, there are many examples of good guys in the fluff. Many have been mentionned in previous posts and many more can be found if you look for them.

Yes, there are individual "good guys". No faction is a "good guy".

i'd have to say tau . Everyone else gives the option to die , tau at least give the option to join . Good guys by default lol

kambien wrote:
i'd have to say tau . Everyone else gives the option to die , tau at least give the option to join . Good guys by default lol

but only for a generation... remember, they sterilize their human inclusions.

I have yet to read a good reason why Craftworld Eldar cannot be the good guys.

morgoth wrote:
I have yet to read a good reason why Craftworld Eldar cannot be the good guys.

Craftworld Eldar are not "good guys" because they are in it for themselves. They care not for any other race unless it adds to their chances for survival. They barely care for the other craftworlds.

Noc

Nocturus wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I have yet to read a good reason why Craftworld Eldar cannot be the good guys.

Craftworld Eldar are not "good guys" because they are in it for themselves. They care not for any other race unless it adds to their chances for survival. They barely care for the other craftworlds.

Noc

That's preposterous.

CWE are not just in it for themselves, they're in it for their CW and even the Eldar kind as a whole for those who are aware of it (there is no mention of Eldar ever tricking other Eldar for example), which is just as altruistic as Jesus himself.

They care not for any race but they don't kill them needlessly, which is tons more than humans with regard to inferior species from cow to fly.

Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

Eldar because they are the true children of the old ones.
Everything else is just specs of star dust and warp and therefore not on the same plane of existance...

i always look at it like "what faction would i prefere to live in being my normal 'umie self?".

i always come up with "might as well join tau".

Dronze wrote:

kambien wrote:
i'd have to say tau . Everyone else gives the option to die , tau at least give the option to join . Good guys by default lol

but only for a generation... remember, they sterilize their human inclusions.

... If said inclusions make an armed revolt and are not willing to live by the Tau rules, in which place the Imperium would've have killed them, their family, their pla.et and made them an example by torturing them and making them into acro-flagellants.

I also only described in Dawn of War, so might be/might not be cobsidered part of the canon.

 Argive wrote:
Eldar because they are the true children of the old ones.
Everything else is just specs of star dust and warp and therefore not on the same plane of existance...

Aren't Orks also created by the Old Ones?

 ectoplastic wrote:
Firstly, I think we need to define what we mean by "good guys". Personally, I would say that sacrifice of self for the benefit of others would be the foremost quality required.
If we accept this definition, we can already dismiss many of the absurd suggestions in this thread such as Orks and Tyranids. Orks are Chaotic Evil. The strongest rules, they regularly murder each other and their "economy" is based on slavery. Tyranids are willing to consume all life to keep itself going. No self sacrifice ever. Just kill, eat, breed, repeat. That anyone would suggest them as "good guys" is mind boggling.
The IoM as an institution is a horrid, tyrannical dystopia none of us would like to live in. Same for the Tau Empire where classes are ridgidly enforced.

As far as factions are concerned, the Farsight enclaves, with their democratic rule and looser classes are the closest to a mostly good faction. Some Space Marine chapters could also potentially be good guys, such as the Salamamders, Lamentors and even Ultramarines.

As for individuals, there are many examples of good guys in the fluff. Many have been mentionned in previous posts and many more can be found if you look for them.

This is exactly what I have been saying this whole time... haven't Eldar been known to self-sacrifice to stop greater evil/threats? At the very least, becoming an Avatar requires self-sacrifice.

NauticalKendall wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Eldar because they are the true children of the old ones.
Everything else is just specs of star dust and warp and therefore not on the same plane of existance...

Aren't Orks also created by the Old Ones?

They weren't finished, so they hardly qualify as "true children".

 ectoplastic wrote:
Firstly, I think we need to define what we mean by "good guys". Personally, I would say that sacrifice of self for the benefit of others would be the foremost quality required.
If we accept this definition, we can already dismiss many of the absurd suggestions in this thread such as Orks and Tyranids. Orks are Chaotic Evil. The strongest rules, they regularly murder each other and their "economy" is based on slavery. Tyranids are willing to consume all life to keep itself going. No self sacrifice ever. Just kill, eat, breed, repeat. That anyone would suggest them as "good guys" is mind boggling.
The IoM as an institution is a horrid, tyrannical dystopia none of us would like to live in. Same for the Tau Empire where classes are ridgidly enforced.

As far as factions are concerned, the Farsight enclaves, with their democratic rule and looser classes are the closest to a mostly good faction. Some Space Marine chapters could also potentially be good guys, such as the Salamamders, Lamentors and even Ultramarines.

As for individuals, there are many examples of good guys in the fluff. Many have been mentionned in previous posts and many more can be found if you look for them.

have an exalt!

No geopolitical power will ever be good. It's simply not feasible. States act out of self interest, and some are more willing to extend aid to alleviate suffering or correct injustice at times, but war is always about power and control. Some regimes are more horrific than others, but you simply cannot be involved in a struggle for survival and be good as a body politic. (total tangent: the Rodenberry era Federation might be closest to an example from fiction)

So, no, massive collectives such as the IoM, the Tau Empire, and the Craftworld Eldar are probably not "good."

AS you mention, though, "good guys" is different from "good." Good guys are the heros, the protagonist. They are morally superior, they are the ones we relate to and root for. It's a very relative thing. Look at movies. In the "longest yard" the good guys are convicts. In the Godfather the "good guys" are a violent crime family.

That all said, I think that there are some factions that are closer to a true "good guy" than others. All jokes about the IoM aside, the Space Marines are actually pretty impressive from a moral standpoint. They are suprerior in every way to the normal humans they serve, and many (if not most) chapters take their role as the protector of mankind very seriously. They are, in my opinion, very much the good guys most of the time.

 Matthew wrote:
Tau are space commies

Which makes them good, right?

 Polonius wrote:

So, no, massive collectives such as the IoM, the Tau Empire, and the Craftworld Eldar are probably not "good."

lmao

Massive Collectives such as the Craftworld Eldar.

If they were Massive Collectives, they'd still be running the fething Galaxy, there'd be no Chaos no Necrons and no Tyranids around.

Litcheur wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Tau are space commies

Which makes them good, right?

Tau are collectivists, not really communists. There's no hint at the class warfare that communism is based on.

If anything, with it's strictly defined "castes," it ignores a huge tenant of communism. It's closer to the utopia envisioned by Plato in the Republic, to the extent that I'd guess it directly influenced the Tau fluff. (that the tau castes are all named after classical elements is noteworthy a well).

If you see Tau as a good guy or not depends a lot on how you view the role of the state. From a more Eastern or even ancient Western view, the role of the State is to protect the people, and to allow for the overall benefit. In this role, the Tau Empire is much calmer, more productive, and better for ones health than nearly anywhere else in the galaxy. However, the Neoliberalism that has dominated the west, most notably in Northern and WEstern Europe plus the US, is that the State should be limited, and that it should allow indviduals to seek their own path.

For most of the posters here, the Tau viewpoint is so different from what you want out of a State as to become "other" and quickly to become "evil." For many people, the downsides to the Tau Empire (little social mobility or personal freedom) are no different from their own existence, and they'd see the stability and safety of it as a good thing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

So, no, massive collectives such as the IoM, the Tau Empire, and the Craftworld Eldar are probably not "good."

lmao

Massive Collectives such as the Craftworld Eldar.

If they were Massive Collectives, they'd still be running the fething Galaxy, there'd be no Chaos no Necrons and no Tyranids around.

The Eldar are obviously greatly diminished, but a couple of dozen soveriegn states, each with an enormous amount of military might? That's a pretty potent force in galactic geopolitics, and not a completely homogenous one.

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

Not having a past you need to redeem in the first place? I think that makes them more of an "anti-good" guy. Not really good but they aren't the bad guys either.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

Not having a past you need to redeem in the first place? I think that makes them more of an "anti-good" guy. Not really good but they aren't the bad guys either.

Also keep in mind, the DA aren't trying so much to redeem their past as they are trying to hide it.

Noc

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

BA are clearly good guys.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

The person who led the betrayal was Lion's second hand man, Luther, who was tainted by Chaos. When he came to, he realized what he had done and was put into mental shock by the realization that he had betrayed his own friend who was like a brother to him and the Imperium. I would hardly say they betrayed the Imperium consciously.

Second, I doubt the Inquisitors would view either secret as safe and would probably purge both Chapters.

Tau are the good guys... why can't commies be good guys? Everyone can admit that if perfect communism were possible amongst people, it would be the best system

Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

As to good guys in 40k, there are good individuals, certainly. Ragnar Blackmane jumps to mind, but all the factions are corrupt at the top. Imperium is a totalitarian theocracy centered around an unwilling god, the Eldar can't let go of their empire and help give everyone a better tomorrow, Tau use hormones as a form of mind control so well Hollywood is blue with envy, Orks are the football team I went out for once, only green and with less female companionship, Necrons are just nasty, Chaos is Chaos, and the squats are busy delving the bowels of Hivefleet Chambers. So no, no good official factions with a Codex. Nids are just animals, for the most part.

Although, yes, plenty of marine chapters are nice to civvies, Farsight's a bro, and Saim-Hann has its moments. If you're loose with your headcannon, 40k has loads of good guys trying their hardest to play the cards they've been dealt, and they'd have a great hand if they were playing the right game, but in the grim darkness of the distant future there is only war (I can't say that war's as fun a card game as Frustration, or as full of choices ).

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

The person who led the betrayal was Lion's second hand man, Luther, who was tainted by Chaos. When he came to, he realized what he had done and was put into mental shock by the realization that he had betrayed his own friend who was like a brother to him and the Imperium. I would hardly say they betrayed the Imperium consciously.

Second, I doubt the Inquisitors would view either secret as safe and would probably purge both Chapters.

I still don't think that qualifies them as "good guys" in the whole scheme of things.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

The person who led the betrayal was Lion's second hand man, Luther, who was tainted by Chaos. When he came to, he realized what he had done and was put into mental shock by the realization that he had betrayed his own friend who was like a brother to him and the Imperium. I would hardly say they betrayed the Imperium consciously.

Second, I doubt the Inquisitors would view either secret as safe and would probably purge both Chapters.

I still don't think that qualifies them as "good guys" in the whole scheme of things.

So people unwillingly forced to betray their own are evil? I don't think that's fair.

Never said that, I just said that I don't think they're good guys.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So people unwillingly forced to betray their own are evil? I don't think that's fair.

It's 40k, nothing's fair.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So people unwillingly forced to betray their own are evil? I don't think that's fair.

It's 40k, nothing's fair.

Ask Eve what god did when the serpent "forced" her to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It may not have been "fair," but she and adam still broke the rules.

As long as we are dealing with absolutes, there are no good guys in 40k. Plenty of people that do horrible things for "good" reasons, but no good guys.

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

Willing to sacrifice a billion humans to save 1 eldar, but also willing to murder 1 twin so that a wraithknight has a pilot. No, they are not good guys.

Noc

Nocturus wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

Willing to sacrifice a billion humans to save 1 eldar, but also willing to murder 1 twin so that a wraithknight has a pilot. No, they are not good guys.

Noc

Humans are to Eldar what rats and cows are to Humans.

Which I'm pretty sure every human good guy has had no trouble sacrificing billions to save one of his kin.

The Eldar don't murder a twin to stuff it in the WK.

The bond is so
strong that should one o f the twins die before the other, the
surviving brother or sister will often fade away in sympathy.
Sometimes, when such a division has taken place, the
surviving twin will sacrifice what is left of his life to pilot a
Wraithknight. The essence o f the dead twin is transferred
into the large spirit stone in the chest of the giant ghost
warrior, whilst the surviving sibling enters a near-permanent
batde trance within the fitted cavity behind its breastplate.

That doesn't sound like murdering a twin to get a pilot for a war machine to me.

Okay, let's get something straight - the definition of 'good'. Good is the deed that serves the most well and hurts the least, as that must mean that that act was the best possible action you could take., at that given moment and situation. To do that 'good', you must realise exactly what your goal is, as all beings strive to do the best thing for themselves, and often also others, as supporting community supports all parts of it, including you. To realise what you have to do to get the best result for the most people, you have to find you base needs, your actual natural need at that point, and not let expectations, illusions and fear of various thibgs, as these will lead you to act differebtly, and so not achieve good, but harm others and youraelf, because you aren't acting out of truth.

This means that, when it comes down to it, the only Faction that follows its core needs and answers those with truthful acts are... The Imperium. In the state and time the Imperium is in, it is the best possible thing to happen for the human race. It knows what its need is, survival and only survival, and acts accordingly, so the most people get the best life they can. They will willingly and remorselessly destroy whole sectors, if that sector could threaten survival of the Imperium, because, if the veil and illusion of moral held them back, it would ultimately mean that the main goal and need of the Imperium - survival - wouldn't be achieved. When everything is dogma and religion is absolute, its because it forces the populace to behave in a way, that supports the main goal in the end. Thats what the Imperium has done, and why, though nightmarish and terrible, the Imperium is the ultimate state in current circumstance. It has removed morals, ethics, free will and other things, that may remove us from the terrible truth of our main goal as a species - that we're only here to survive, and nothing else.

This is basically why 40K is so absorbing. In real life, we're in a situation where life is so good that we can ignore our basest need of survival, because our governments and our race has agreed to not endanger it universally, so we can take to other things, and develop ethics and morals based on the idea that all human life has a worth beyond the physical. 40K doesn't have that. It's a time where only the basest of needs can be fullfilled, or should be, because of how hostile and violent life is in the galaxy. And so, in desperation and in the pursute of the best possible action, the Imperium looked deeply within our human minds and our collective soul, and removed everything superficial and chose to go for the goal, and not ponder on the means to do so.

The Imperium is the best possible state in the 40.000 millenium, and one, that has pierced humanity and found the basest programming within us, realised it and made a state solely made to execute that programming, for the good of the entire race. That's what makes 40K grimdark - that the Imperium is the most human and selfreflecting of all possible states ever.

Also, Socratarian philosphy ho!

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, let's get something straight - the definition of 'good'. Good is the deed that serves the most well and hurts the least, as that must mean that that act was the best possible action you could take., at that given moment and situation. To do that 'good', you must realise exactly what your goal is, as all beings strive to do the best thing for themselves, and often also others, as supporting community supports all parts of it, including you. To realise what you have to do to get the best result for the most people, you have to find you base needs, your actual natural need at that point, and not let expectations, illusions and fear of various thibgs, as these will lead you to act differebtly, and so not achieve good, but harm others and youraelf, because you aren't acting out of truth.

This means that, when it comes down to it, the only Faction that follows its core needs and answers those with truthful acts are...

The Imperium, but also the Eldars, and Tau, and…

morgoth wrote:

Nocturus wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

Willing to sacrifice a billion humans to save 1 eldar, but also willing to murder 1 twin so that a wraithknight has a pilot. No, they are not good guys.

Noc

Humans are to Eldar what rats and cows are to Humans.

Which I'm pretty sure every human good guy has had no trouble sacrificing billions to save one of his kin.

The Eldar don't murder a twin to stuff it in the WK.

The bond is so
strong that should one o f the twins die before the other, the
surviving brother or sister will often fade away in sympathy.
Sometimes, when such a division has taken place, the
surviving twin will sacrifice what is left of his life to pilot a
Wraithknight. The essence o f the dead twin is transferred
into the large spirit stone in the chest of the giant ghost
warrior, whilst the surviving sibling enters a near-permanent
batde trance within the fitted cavity behind its breastplate.

That doesn't sound like murdering a twin to get a pilot for a war machine to me.

This sure does though. From the same page in the book also.

As the end of days approaches and instances of birth become ever more eclipsed by reports of death, fewer and fewer twins are born upon each craftworld. ... As unsettling as it may be, it is whispered that some crafworld councils are removing the option of choice from such individuals. Desperate times call for desperate measures, after all -- should a pair of twins be too atached to the light of the living world, it is possible to steer them toward a darker fate.

Let's inject a bit of Aristotle morality in this thread for the laugh. In his system of morality, there is no such thing has good or evil these two concepts fail to represent reallity and thus must be put aside for better concepts to understand what is positive or negative in a moral world. Aristotle decided that those two concepts would be lack and excess. If you lack something it's bad, but if you have something in excess it's bad to. The key to positive behavior is balance. For exemple killing humen is not bad. The circomstances and the way you kill them will either make you balanced or excessively violent. On the other side of the scale if you refuse to kill or harm everybody, maybe you lack violence and thus are wrong (if you don't kill a rapist about to kill its victim you are defenitly lacking something).

So who is good with that in mind I would go on a limb and say Craftworld and Exodite Eldars, most of the Imperial Institutions beside the Imperial Guard and the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Tau and maybe some Necron factions.

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

So Jesus willingly sacrificed millions of other, inteligent beings to safe a few of his own followers? Or did he ruthlessly hunt down people who, without any mistake of their own, settled on places
he claimed thousand of years ago? Face it, the Eldar are quite often arrogant dicks, so full of themselfs that logical decisionmaking and reason (like, actualy telling people that threat XY is approaching instead of antagonising everyone without 500 lightyears by what appears to be acts of random aggression) tend to escape them. To be honest, i wouldn't want to have them any other way
Of course, since the craftworlds all have different cultures, values and ways to solve problems, it is hardly possible to attach one label to all craftworld Eldar.

So, for good guys? The Interex. trough cooperation and reason they managed to create a stable and scientificaly advanced society. Since this is 40k they were most likely crushed by Space Adolf and friends.

I think Space Arnold or Space Judas got them first.

 jreilly89 wrote:

And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

They go full-dracula when drink too much body fluids.