The Lion is still asleep, but what do you think will happen when he wakes up? Do you think he will try to wake and cure Guilliman?

Given GW's past lore writing he will either....

1) Die and come back even awesomer
2) Die
3) Become a LoW and not change much about the Imperium
4) Be the start of 40k's very own end times (See option 1)

I would rather prefer option 3, tbh. It'd be cool to have some Imperial primarchs again to kick some butt.

When the lion comes back he will, based off his BL books, begin a new crusade to make safe the universe. Probably starting with chaos.

 raiden wrote:
When the lion comes back he will, based off his BL books, begin a new crusade to make safe the universe. Probably starting with chaos.

I dunno judging by the BL books he'll do stuff but the BL writers won't get his characters or motivations figured out resulting in an utterly confusing presentation

He will probably stretch, turn around in his bed and think: "Just five more minutes..."

I'd guess the jungle, the mighty jungle, won't be so quiet anymore.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
He will probably stretch, turn around in his bed and think: "Just five more minutes..."

I second this.

I think there are more serious implications to the Lion waking up. First off, the Dark Angels would go on full lockdown until they can confirm El'Jonson's identity, raising some Imperial eyebrows. Once this is established, the entire Unforgiven will rally to the Rock to pay homage to their Primarch, establishing the old legion directly or otherwise. This will scare the hell out of the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition. The Lion will be revolted by the state of the Imperium and try to usurp control. This will result in a new mini-civil war in the Imperium. Honestly, I think it'd be neat to have an entire separatist legion. It'd make the Dark Angels even more unique than just being the Green Marines.

 tweber92 wrote:
I think there are more serious implications to the Lion waking up. First off, the Dark Angels would go on full lockdown until they can confirm El'Jonson's identity, raising some Imperial eyebrows. Once this is established, the entire Unforgiven will rally to the Rock to pay homage to their Primarch, establishing the old legion directly or otherwise. This will scare the hell out of the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition. The Lion will be revolted by the state of the Imperium and try to usurp control. This will result in a new mini-civil war in the Imperium. Honestly, I think it'd be neat to have an entire separatist legion. It'd make the Dark Angels even more unique than just being the Green Marines.

Reestablishing the Dark Angels as a full-fledged legion seems likely, given how the Lion wasn't present at the Second Founding and probably would have opposed it along with Dorn and Russ. We don't know how the Lion would react to the whole Unforgiven situation though. He might make the mission to hunt down the Fallen his priority, rather than try to take control of the Imperium. If he did take control, he'd probably become Lord Commander and occupy himself with military matters and reclaiming worlds, similar to what Guilliman did when he held that title.

Since GW is unlikely to advance the storyline too far, I'm guessing a buildup to a mini-civil war while simultaneously restablishing the legion and hunting the Fallen seems most likely (with the timeline frozen in this state for a while).

Personally, I really like the separatist legion thing!

But yea, I think your post is spot on!

Saw the thread and instantly thought of this.

well if the Lion wakes that would undoubtedly mean the end times truly had come. So many other loyal primarchs will also return one way or another.
Regarding the unforgiven though i believe the Lion will be proud and sad his sons have carried on this burden as he would have done. I believe he will recall all his gene sons and officially reform the legion and then go about joining his brothers in kicking that armless failures ass, abbadon.

What if we had a war....and EVERY BODY CAME???


It would mean the end times are upon the filthy IoM and Lion El'Johnsonville Sausages will be there to witness it.

He'll go Chaos and WRYYYYYYYYYYYY everything around. Than the dark angels will have to kill him themselves. It's gona be another dark secret...covering the first one. Dark angels will add purple fringe to their helmets as a sign of grief.

 tweber92 wrote:
I think there are more serious implications to the Lion waking up. First off, the Dark Angels would go on full lockdown until they can confirm El'Jonson's identity, raising some Imperial eyebrows. Once this is established, the entire Unforgiven will rally to the Rock to pay homage to their Primarch, establishing the old legion directly or otherwise. This will scare the hell out of the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition. The Lion will be revolted by the state of the Imperium and try to usurp control. This will result in a new mini-civil war in the Imperium. Honestly, I think it'd be neat to have an entire separatist legion. It'd make the Dark Angels even more unique than just being the Green Marines.

This would be awesome. The DA have had their own agenda and been very secretive since the great betrayal anyway, so it wouldn't be too far fetched for the Imperium to oust them. Cypher would then finally bring his elusive ass back to the rock and give the Lion back his sword, weeping as he did!

 MadSoul wrote:

 tweber92 wrote:
I think there are more serious implications to the Lion waking up. First off, the Dark Angels would go on full lockdown until they can confirm El'Jonson's identity, raising some Imperial eyebrows. Once this is established, the entire Unforgiven will rally to the Rock to pay homage to their Primarch, establishing the old legion directly or otherwise. This will scare the hell out of the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition. The Lion will be revolted by the state of the Imperium and try to usurp control. This will result in a new mini-civil war in the Imperium. Honestly, I think it'd be neat to have an entire separatist legion. It'd make the Dark Angels even more unique than just being the Green Marines.

This would be awesome. The DA have had their own agenda and been very secretive since the great betrayal anyway, so it wouldn't be too far fetched for the Imperium to oust them. Cypher would then finally bring his elusive ass back to the rock and give the Lion back his sword, weeping as he did!

Or Cypher turns out to be the Lion in disguise! DUN DUN DUN

On a more serious note, I'd love to see a few of the Primarchs come back. Specifically, I'd like them to give the Emperor his own faction and basically give him Daemons of Order - aka Angels. Dead Primarchs become their Daemon Prince equivalents while live Primarchs come back and make the different Codeces even more individual. Then, we fold a few of the Imperial factions together, and add a new Xenos and call it a day.

 changerofways wrote:
What if we had a war....and EVERY BODY CAME???


It would mean the end times are upon the filthy IoM and Lion El'Johnsonville Sausages will be there to witness it.

.......forgive me, I have a dirty mind

I play DA, so I'd love it for them to become I Legion again with Lion coming back as a rude boy character to field. The DA characters are a little lacking compared to some other armies, so they could so with a stand out.

I think he would get his Legion back together and demand they sit on the fence unit there is going to be a clear winner in the war.

Wouldn't he first have to forgive Luther or Luthor (who for no good reason is laying in the room next to him, hope he doesn't have a fit of insainity or something and decides to break out) for his treachery? Then he could move on and do whatever a just awoken Primarch needs to do?

He'll wake up and promptly return to Terra to make a full report on what happened within the dark angels legion... because nothing'd quite grim dark his return like his very first action being to tell the dark angels that they spent the last 10 millienia doing the exact OPPISITE of what he wanted to see happen

I thought the Lion died and became the chaos god of social awkwardness.

As suggested above, if the Lion returns, Guilliman is likely to return too, and nobody wants to see their Spiritual Liege return.

However, the a Crusade to reclaim Vulkan from Trazyn's storage, get Russ and Corax out of bars in the EoT, haul the Khan out of the Webway/Comorragh, piece together Dorn etc would also be happening, from a storytelling point of view.

 ChazSexington wrote:
As suggested above, if the Lion returns, Guilliman is likely to return too, and nobody wants to see their Spiritual Liege return.

However, the a Crusade to reclaim Vulkan from Trazyn's storage, get Russ and Corax out of bars in the EoT, haul the Khan out of the Webway/Comorragh, piece together Dorn etc would also be happening, from a storytelling point of view.

If it was written well, I think that would be a great story. Lion El returning to save the Primarchs and lead the fight against Chaos would be awesome.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
As suggested above, if the Lion returns, Guilliman is likely to return too, and nobody wants to see their Spiritual Liege return.

However, the a Crusade to reclaim Vulkan from Trazyn's storage, get Russ and Corax out of bars in the EoT, haul the Khan out of the Webway/Comorragh, piece together Dorn etc would also be happening, from a storytelling point of view.

If it was written well, I think that would be a great story. Lion El returning to save the Primarchs and lead the fight against Chaos would be awesome.

Except Guilliman would be far more qualified to lead the fight against Chaos. He's got the amazing tactics + social skills. The Lion is just amazing tactics + awkardness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, I still think Guilliman is a dick, I just think he has better credentials than the Lion for that kind of a role.

If the lion comes back he will wake up to find a blood covered Russ standing over him.
His first words will be wtf?
Then Russ will head butt him and he will go back to sleep.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think he would get his Legion back together and demand they sit on the fence unit there is going to be a clear winner in the war.

This.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
If the lion comes back he will wake up to find a blood covered Russ standing over him.
His first words will be wtf?
Then Russ will head butt him and he will go back to sleep.

Pfffft, not


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
As suggested above, if the Lion returns, Guilliman is likely to return too, and nobody wants to see their Spiritual Liege return.

However, the a Crusade to reclaim Vulkan from Trazyn's storage, get Russ and Corax out of bars in the EoT, haul the Khan out of the Webway/Comorragh, piece together Dorn etc would also be happening, from a storytelling point of view.

If it was written well, I think that would be a great story. Lion El returning to save the Primarchs and lead the fight against Chaos would be awesome.

Except Guilliman would be far more qualified to lead the fight against Chaos. He's got the amazing tactics + social skills. The Lion is just amazing tactics + awkardness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, I still think Guilliman is a dick, I just think he has better credentials than the Lion for that kind of a role.

But I don't think he could gain their support. A lot of Primarchs were against the Codex Astartes

after 10 000 years, I would say take one hell of a morning piss..

 jreilly89 wrote:
But I don't think he could gain their support. A lot of Primarchs were against the Codex Astartes

But there were more of them for it than there were against it.

Dorn was against it initially but changed his mind, plus he's dead.
Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and obviously Guilliman were for it.
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead.
That only leaves the Lion and Russ who were against it.

 Orblivion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
But I don't think he could gain their support. A lot of Primarchs were against the Codex Astartes

But there were more of them for it than there were against it.

Dorn was against it initially but changed his mind, plus he's dead.
Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and obviously Guilliman were for it.
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead.
That only leaves the Lion and Russ who were against it.

I thought Dorn was rumored. I know they have his hand, but he is still a Primarch. Khan is somewhere in the webway. That leaves Vulkan, Corax and Guilliman against the Lion and Russ. It's tough to say, but I think, depending on how/who woke up, it would be hard for Guilliman to be the leader.

Assuming it went:
-Lion wakes up
-Cure is found for Guilliman

Then either Dorn, Corax, Russ, or Vulkan would return, then somehow try to rescue Khan. I don't think Guilliman could be leader if it was only , say, Vulkan, Guilliman, and the Lion. I think it would have to be at least 3/4 of the Primarchs against the Lion for him to concede to follow Guilliman.

It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

 Orblivion wrote:
It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

True, BUT that could be an interesting story. Say the Lion wants to become Warmaster to dive in to the Eye of Terror to pursue Chaos and try to rescue the other Primarchs, but the High Lords of Terra say no. Cue civil war

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

True, BUT that could be an interesting story. Say the Lion wants to become Warmaster to dive in to the Eye of Terror to pursue Chaos and try to rescue the other Primarchs, but the High Lords of Terra say no. Cue civil war

Which would be the dumbest thing the Lion could possibly do. The Imperium cannot afford an internal power struggle of that scale in light of what it currently faces, he could very well doom the entire Imperium by pressing the issue. However there are several primarchs, the Lion included, who I can imagine being arrogant enough to do it anyway.

 Orblivion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

True, BUT that could be an interesting story. Say the Lion wants to become Warmaster to dive in to the Eye of Terror to pursue Chaos and try to rescue the other Primarchs, but the High Lords of Terra say no. Cue civil war

Which would be the dumbest thing the Lion could possibly do. The Imperium cannot afford an internal power struggle of that scale in light of what it currently faces, he could very well doom the entire Imperium by pressing the issue. However there are several primarchs, the Lion included, who I can imagine being arrogant enough to do it anyway.

I think that would qualify as "End Times" don't get me wrong, I think that sort of action by any of the Primarchs (I think the Lion or Russ would be ballsy enough to do it, I don't think Guilliman would be that arrogant) would absolutely doom the Imperium, either letting Chaos or Tyranids finish them off. I don't think Tau or Eldar would be ballsy enough to capitalize on it and I don't think Orkz would have the foresight to raise a WAAGH!! and finish off the Imperium. Necrons are a possibility, but again, I don't know if they could raise a force large enough in time

In Unremembered Empire, Lion and Guilliman discuss Lion becoming the Emperor of Imperium Secundus, well, at least until Sanguinius turns up.

The lion is actually very moody. He is both taciturn, yet charming, introverted yet extroverted, anti-social,_ yet social.

(At least if you believe the BL authors...)

Personally I see lion as a reasonably charming man, that tends to keep to himself and his thoughts most of the time, thus is labeled the way he is.

 Vermis wrote:
I'd guess the jungle, the mighty jungle, won't be so quiet anymore.

i see what you did there...

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
But I don't think he could gain their support. A lot of Primarchs were against the Codex Astartes

But there were more of them for it than there were against it.

Dorn was against it initially but changed his mind, plus he's dead.
Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and obviously Guilliman were for it.
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead.
That only leaves the Lion and Russ who were against it.

I thought Dorn was rumored. I know they have his hand, but he is still a Primarch. Khan is somewhere in the webway. That leaves Vulkan, Corax and Guilliman against the Lion and Russ. It's tough to say, but I think, depending on how/who woke up, it would be hard for Guilliman to be the leader.

Assuming it went:
-Lion wakes up
-Cure is found for Guilliman

Then either Dorn, Corax, Russ, or Vulkan would return, then somehow try to rescue Khan. I don't think Guilliman could be leader if it was only , say, Vulkan, Guilliman, and the Lion. I think it would have to be at least 3/4 of the Primarchs against the Lion for him to concede to follow Guilliman.

Guilliman would be better at it, but the Lion only really had Russ hatin' on him, so I'd say that the Lion would have a pretty good chance of leading if it came down to that. However, it seems more likely that the Lion would start a bloody civil war and the other Primarchs would just pick sides (most probably for the Lion). Now, if the Lion were to just join up with the Imperium, then he'd probably demand a place as a High Lord or something, but he wouldn't actually take command of other Legions/Chapters.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Vermis wrote:
I'd guess the jungle, the mighty jungle, won't be so quiet anymore.

i see what you did there...

Sad to say I did not and it took me a while and now I can't stop laughing

It seems like if the Lion did wake up, the Unforgiven would form the 1st Legion again.

The Lion would probably become a war-leader, if not Warmaster. He has the greatest strategic mind, and would have the clout of a Legion behind him. It takes some awful stupid to argue with the greatest tactical mind in the Imperium when he has a significant portion of the Imperium's might behind him.

Should the other Primarch's return, hopefully they would learn from the last 10'000 years, and work together.

My $0.02.

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:


Should the other Primarch's return, hopefully they would learn from the last 10'000 years, and work together.

My $0.02.

Not likely, since they're all dead, dying, or living trophies at this point.

as for if multiple primarchs return, it really depends. Russ is..... I don't wanna say unambitious, but his ambitious are from what I can tell fairly simple. he wants to be out there fighting the good fight, he'll take actions to address problems he sees, but he's not really intreasted in higher offices. The Lion, it's hard to tell, oddly I think the greatest threat to the high lords would be Gulliman. the man is a builder of empires, and a tinkerer of empires, he was the guy who took charge after the Heresy and thus a LOT of the IoMs structures are ones laid by him. I can't see him not pushing for changes and reform to "get things working better" the high lords will gleefully accept a primarch whose mostly intreasted in being a general, but one who wants to get in and tinker with the sturcture of the Imperium is apt to make a LOT of enemies

Wait, ain't Dorn missing cranium a bit?

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, ain't Dorn missing cranium a bit?

No, but he is missing a hand at the very least. There is the slight possibility that he might still be alive.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Wouldn't he first have to forgive Luther or Luthor (who for no good reason is laying in the room next to him, hope he doesn't have a fit of insainity or something and decides to break out) for his treachery? Then he could move on and do whatever a just awoken Primarch needs to do?

This is a good point, what would he do about Luther? One would think that would be his first item on the "ol' to-do" list.

Most likely he executes Luther. He was trying to kill him right before he took the ol'e dirt nap.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Most likely he executes Luther. He was trying to kill him right before he took the ol'e dirt nap.

Hmmm, not sure. Luther was such an asset to the Lion. Then again, I doubt he would take well to a "plea of insanity".

They were best buddies, but thats why the betrayal elicited such anger. The Lion was not pleased.

When the Lion wakes he would execute Luthor first and rebuild his legion second. Then there would be a HUGE problem with his existence.
The high lords exist because the primarchs are out of the picture but if any primarch returns then there would be a power struggle. The primarchs are the 'sons' of the Emperor and thus would be the closest thing to living gods that the Imperium has. They would be the most fit to lead it.
The Lion existing would cause problems with the High Lords and the Inquisition as he would refute the divinity of the Emperor. This would label him as a fake or fraud and would probably lead to open war. The Dark Angel legion would be hard pressed on all sides it would lead to an interesting story arch where the Legion is excommunicated from the Imperium and may even help overthrow the corrupt Imperium.

Additional twist would be if Robute wakes up to lead the forces for the High Lords. Trying to keep his father's dream of a united (even if failing empire) over more civil war. After all, the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, ain't Dorn missing cranium a bit?

No, but he is missing a hand at the very least. There is the slight possibility that he might still be alive.

He is still a Primarch. I'd hardly call it slight


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krug001 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Most likely he executes Luther. He was trying to kill him right before he took the ol'e dirt nap.

Hmmm, not sure. Luther was such an asset to the Lion. Then again, I doubt he would take well to a "plea of insanity".

My guess would be to do the same as they do with all the Fallen: make the repent via torture, then grant them death when they admit their sins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inkubas wrote:
When the Lion wakes he would execute Luthor first and rebuild his legion second. Then there would be a HUGE problem with his existence.
The high lords exist because the primarchs are out of the picture but if any primarch returns then there would be a power struggle. The primarchs are the 'sons' of the Emperor and thus would be the closest thing to living gods that the Imperium has. They would be the most fit to lead it.
The Lion existing would cause problems with the High Lords and the Inquisition as he would refute the divinity of the Emperor. This would label him as a fake or fraud and would probably lead to open war. The Dark Angel legion would be hard pressed on all sides it would lead to an interesting story arch where the Legion is excommunicated from the Imperium and may even help overthrow the corrupt Imperium.

Additional twist would be if Robute wakes up to lead the forces for the High Lords. Trying to keep his father's dream of a united (even if failing empire) over more civil war. After all, the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

What do you mean hard pressed? I think the Imperium would have a hard time waging war on the Rock, let alone with the Lion guiding them.

I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

I'm sure the return of any Primarch would be relatively peaceful.

They would likely be given a seat on the High Lords of Terra, but their time would be more valuable as generals leading the defense of the Imperium. So they'd probably leave mundane tasks of governance to the High Lords.

Not Grimdark enough.

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

I'm not saying he would attack with the Rock. If anything, once the Lion realized this, he would either use guerilla attacks on the IoM or just defensively attack with the Rock. He would be smart enough to realize an all out attack would fail.

 jreilly89 wrote:

I'm not saying he would attack with the Rock. If anything, once the Lion realized this, he would either use guerilla attacks on the IoM or just defensively attack with the Rock. He would be smart enough to realize an all out attack would fail.

Huron + 1.
Or more than +1. He's a primarch after all.

I think that if GW wishes to return primarchs in regular 40k, they'd be much more evil than before. Even the generally 'good' ones.

The rock is pretty much the most powerful ship in the entire imperium so the defences of sector solar shouldn't be a problem. Aslo 15% of all space marines chapters are dark angel successors so they are bring with them a massive navy and army. And even if there are to many imperial navy ships they can just have their deathwing and deathwing successors to teleport onto the ships and disable them.

He'd probably either work towards curing/finding the others, or quietly move from the shadows off the bat. If word of him waking up became public knowledge, I'm guessing the Chaos Primarchs would become more active as well. And if we thought an armless loser was a pain in the ass...

The rock is pretty much the most powerful ship in the entire imperium so the defences of sector solar shouldn't be a problem. Aslo 15% of all space marines chapters are dark angel successors so they are bring with them a massive navy and army. And even if there are to many imperial navy ships they can just have their deathwing and deathwing successors to teleport onto the ships and disable them.

And I'm pretty sure the Phalanx is the most powerful ship owned by a Space Marine Chapter, and you can bet Chapters like the Imperial Fists and their successors (the second most populous successor line after the Ultramarines) would stand against the Dark Angels if they tried to launch an attack on Holy Terra.

Because, it wouldn't matter who you are, if you attack the Throneworld, you are a traitor.

I mean, if you are going to assume all of the Dark Angel successors are going to line up behind the Dark Angels, it only stands to reason that the close Imperial Fist successors (Feast of Blades is an example of them regularly getting together) would unite to fight off a renegade group of chapters.

And then there's the Ultramarines, who, if even half of their successors answered their call, would outnumber the other former legions all put together pretty handily.

That's not even mentioning that Terra wouldn't need any Space Marine chapters to intervene, seeing as it has the most powerful fleet in the Imperium hovering over it. And then there's the defenses around Mars, Titan, the Imperial Palace's defenses on the ground that shoot into orbit, the Lunar Bases...

And I'd love to see them teleport onto a ship in the defense fleet around Holy Terra, Void Shields up and everything. Scatter some Deathwing across the immaterium.

Oh the joy of unleashing such as The Minotaurs, The Executioners, and of course The Carchardarons Astra upon the Dark Angels. With all the forces of the IoM against them, Lion would be crapping his litter box.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Because, it wouldn't matter who you are, if you attack the Throneworld, you are a traitor.

The combined forces of the Space marines marched on (and attacked) Holy Terra to end the Reign of Blood / Age of Apostacy(sp). The Imperial Fists were not there defending they were one of those attacking.

I'm quite certain that the same thing was done -again- when there was an unacceptable amount of inactivity due to a few gaps in the Highlords of Terra, and the potential people to fill those gaps arguing, bickering, and politicing all over the place to get the seat they wanted. Space Marines (en mass) showed up, locked the Highlords (and potential Highlords) in a room with a few chapter masters. A day or so went by, not everyone came back out, and the issue was settled.

Suffice it to say that attacking Terra nor even pushing about the Highlords themselves does not automatically make you a traitor. If the Dark Angels started to carpet bomb the world and expressed interest in dethoning the Emperor? Absolutely would plenty of other chapters turn against them. But if the Lion merely wanted to wrest control away from the corrupt and impotent Highlords of Terra? There's a very good chance he'd have many a non-angels chapter backing him, or at least not interfering.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm sure the return of any Primarch would be relatively peaceful.

They would likely be given a seat on the High Lords of Terra, but their time would be more valuable as generals leading the defense of the Imperium. So they'd probably leave mundane tasks of governance to the High Lords.

While not Grimdark enough, it would be likely. Military leaders , such as the Lion, often defer governance in order to pursue a campaign. As many others have said, I am certain that campaign would be hunting the Fallen.

This would be very inline with the Lion's position after the Emperor showed up on Caliban. Rather this would be an awkward reversal of that situation.

Though I could see after/during the campaign against the Fallen, the Lion attempting to get his chapter (the Inner Circle) back inline; regarding the truth about the Emperor. Still, I think Jonson would be tactically sound enough to not go head-long into battle against the entire Imperium. I mean, what could be more "Dark Angel-ly" than putting on a front and brooding secretively about secret, secrets. Which has its own Grimdark appeal. "A chapter (legion?) bent on the day they can spring their plan to return the Emperium to is previous glory."

Well, the current IoM is vastly different from the old IoM - Emprah is now ironically worshipped as a god (Lorgar got the last laugh there), so it would be interesting to have an IoM vs. returned Primarchs scenario.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Because, it wouldn't matter who you are, if you attack the Throneworld, you are a traitor.

The combined forces of the Space marines marched on (and attacked) Holy Terra to end the Reign of Blood / Age of Apostacy(sp). The Imperial Fists were not there defending they were one of those attacking.

I'm quite certain that the same thing was done -again- when there was an unacceptable amount of inactivity due to a few gaps in the Highlords of Terra, and the potential people to fill those gaps arguing, bickering, and politicing all over the place to get the seat they wanted. Space Marines (en mass) showed up, locked the Highlords (and potential Highlords) in a room with a few chapter masters. A day or so went by, not everyone came back out, and the issue was settled.

Suffice it to say that attacking Terra nor even pushing about the Highlords themselves does not automatically make you a traitor. If the Dark Angels started to carpet bomb the world and expressed interest in dethoning the Emperor? Absolutely would plenty of other chapters turn against them. But if the Lion merely wanted to wrest control away from the corrupt and impotent Highlords of Terra? There's a very good chance he'd have many a non-angels chapter backing him, or at least not interfering.

This.

Also, do you guys know ANYTHING about the Lion? He is undisputedly the coldest, most calculating, and most intelligent of all of the Primarchs. He pays for this with his social skills, but still. He wouldn't just rush headlong into an attack on Terra. Like I've said in the dead Calgar thread, if any Chapter Master, Primarch, ANYBODY were to stage a full-scale rebellion against the Imperium and they were an influential person with great intelligence, respect and power, then they would bide their time - gather allies, determine who would be against him/her, determine who would be with him/her, who needs to be tied up on the other side of the galaxy, who needs to be assassinated, etc. If you wish to see an example of a Primarch biding his time and then launching a massive schism, look at the Horus Heresy. The Lion rebelling would be a second Heresy, only without Chaos fueling it. He would gather Guard allies, Inquisition allies, Mechanicus allies, Space Marine allies, etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And during that rebellion, Chaos would launch the 13th Black Crusade and conquer half the IoM.

 dusara217 wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Because, it wouldn't matter who you are, if you attack the Throneworld, you are a traitor.

The combined forces of the Space marines marched on (and attacked) Holy Terra to end the Reign of Blood / Age of Apostacy(sp). The Imperial Fists were not there defending they were one of those attacking.

I'm quite certain that the same thing was done -again- when there was an unacceptable amount of inactivity due to a few gaps in the Highlords of Terra, and the potential people to fill those gaps arguing, bickering, and politicing all over the place to get the seat they wanted. Space Marines (en mass) showed up, locked the Highlords (and potential Highlords) in a room with a few chapter masters. A day or so went by, not everyone came back out, and the issue was settled.

Suffice it to say that attacking Terra nor even pushing about the Highlords themselves does not automatically make you a traitor. If the Dark Angels started to carpet bomb the world and expressed interest in dethoning the Emperor? Absolutely would plenty of other chapters turn against them. But if the Lion merely wanted to wrest control away from the corrupt and impotent Highlords of Terra? There's a very good chance he'd have many a non-angels chapter backing him, or at least not interfering.

This.

Also, do you guys know ANYTHING about the Lion? He is undisputedly the coldest, most calculating, and most intelligent of all of the Primarchs. He pays for this with his social skills, but still. He wouldn't just rush headlong into an attack on Terra. Like I've said in the dead Calgar thread, if any Chapter Master, Primarch, ANYBODY were to stage a full-scale rebellion against the Imperium and they were an influential person with great intelligence, respect and power, then they would bide their time - gather allies, determine who would be against him/her, determine who would be with him/her, who needs to be tied up on the other side of the galaxy, who needs to be assassinated, etc. If you wish to see an example of a Primarch biding his time and then launching a massive schism, look at the Horus Heresy. The Lion rebelling would be a second Heresy, only without Chaos fueling it. He would gather Guard allies, Inquisition allies, Mechanicus allies, Space Marine allies, etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And during that rebellion, Chaos would launch the 13th Black Crusade and conquer half the IoM.

This. The Lion wouldn't rush face first into a losing fight. Also, I thought the 13th Crusade already happened? Or has it been retconned?

It was retconned.

 dusara217 wrote:
It was retconned.

What about the other 12 that failed due to the armless wonder?

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Because, it wouldn't matter who you are, if you attack the Throneworld, you are a traitor.

The combined forces of the Space marines marched on (and attacked) Holy Terra to end the Reign of Blood / Age of Apostacy(sp). The Imperial Fists were not there defending they were one of those attacking.

I'm quite certain that the same thing was done -again- when there was an unacceptable amount of inactivity due to a few gaps in the Highlords of Terra, and the potential people to fill those gaps arguing, bickering, and politicing all over the place to get the seat they wanted. Space Marines (en mass) showed up, locked the Highlords (and potential Highlords) in a room with a few chapter masters. A day or so went by, not everyone came back out, and the issue was settled.

Suffice it to say that attacking Terra nor even pushing about the Highlords themselves does not automatically make you a traitor. If the Dark Angels started to carpet bomb the world and expressed interest in dethoning the Emperor? Absolutely would plenty of other chapters turn against them. But if the Lion merely wanted to wrest control away from the corrupt and impotent Highlords of Terra? There's a very good chance he'd have many a non-angels chapter backing him, or at least not interfering.

Great post!

Also, the Emperor can still communicate telepathically so the Lion would probably want to meet him and discuss the state of the Imperium. I don't think the High Lords would (or could) deny him an audience. This is one of the Emperor's sons we're talking about!

On another note, I've been thinking maybe the Lion would want the Dark Angels to move on from the whole hunting the Fallen thing. 10,000 years is a long time. He might just let the cat out of the bag and refocus their priorities. Some of the Fallen might even return and ask for absolution since that's what many of them seem to be waiting for. And even if the High Lords reacted badly to the truth, the Dark Angels couldn't really be declared tratiors anymore. Not with a living Primarch leading them.

He will finally reveal that he was a traitor and he and the inner circle will pledge fully to the chaos gods, dragging many chapters with them. Cypher will deliver the sword to Terra and a new crusade will be launched against The Unforgivable!








Not really, just poking fun at DA players. It's a hobby of mine, as my best friend plays them!

 Inkubas wrote:
When the Lion wakes he would execute Luthor first and rebuild his legion second. Then there would be a HUGE problem with his existence.
The high lords exist because the primarchs are out of the picture but if any primarch returns then there would be a power struggle. The primarchs are the 'sons' of the Emperor and thus would be the closest thing to living gods that the Imperium has. They would be the most fit to lead it.
The Lion existing would cause problems with the High Lords and the Inquisition as he would refute the divinity of the Emperor. This would label him as a fake or fraud and would probably lead to open war. The Dark Angel legion would be hard pressed on all sides it would lead to an interesting story arch where the Legion is excommunicated from the Imperium and may even help overthrow the corrupt Imperium.

Additional twist would be if Robute wakes up to lead the forces for the High Lords. Trying to keep his father's dream of a united (even if failing empire) over more civil war. After all, the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

I'm not sure there WOULD be a power struggle. the primarchs didn't all INSTANTLY abandon the IoM following the Heresy they struck around for a good while. but at the same time, they let the high lords run the show. the only one involved in the active governance of the IoM, the only one who was proably intreasted, was Gulliman. oddly I think Gulliman would be the greatest threat to the high lords of the loyalist primarchs. most of the others would content themselves with the busniess of war, etc. Gulliman would come back and proably basicly wanna tinker with the structure of the IoM, and could be seen as a threat by the other high lords. However, each of the Primarchs are intelligent charismatic people, they'd likely be able to get a majority of the high lords to support them

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

There's likely 50,000 Dark Angels. Not 15,000.

The Lion would probably want to have all current tactical data brought to his attention so that he could assess and reunite his Legion. It would be a good thing if the First Legion were the one to bring some form of unity back to the Imperium. Ironic even.

He may also want to "see" his Father the Emperor. Maybe the Emperor can communicate in his current state, maybe he can't. He may want to take the role of Warmaster and tackle the most dire wars ones but it really depends on how his body is holding up after 10k years... is he functionally immortal? (I assume so as his Astartes are) Is he sleeping in a stasis field? Or is he only ever mentioned as sleeping?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

There's likely 50,000 Dark Angels. Not 15,000.

where is your 50, 000 number from?

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

That does not take into account that a large part, if not the majority of the Imperium would side with the Primarch. He is the son of their god after all, so that makes him Space Jesus. If Jesus were to return to Earth, most if not all Christians would follow him, even if he went against the Church and government. In 40k it would likely not be much different.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

That does not take into account that a large part, if not the majority of the Imperium would side with the Primarch. He is the son of their god after all, so that makes him Space Jesus. If Jesus were to return to Earth, most if not all Christians would follow him, even if he went against the Church and government. In 40k it would likely not be much different.

If Jesus had brothers who had gone batnerf insane back in the old days and caused untold destruction, it might be a bit differant. if the Lion went all rebel it'd be REAAAAALLLY easy to cast him as "Horus reborn"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

That does not take into account that a large part, if not the majority of the Imperium would side with the Primarch. He is the son of their god after all, so that makes him Space Jesus. If Jesus were to return to Earth, most if not all Christians would follow him, even if he went against the Church and government. In 40k it would likely not be much different.

If Jesus had brothers who had gone batnerf insane back in the old days and caused untold destruction, it might be a bit differant. if the Lion went all rebel it'd be REAAAAALLLY easy to cast him as "Horus reborn"

I highly doubt the average Imperial citizen knows of the Horus Heresy or fallen Primarchs. It might undermine their fate, plus it would make them aware of Chaos, something which the Inquisition really tries to prevent, even going to the point of executing entire worlds and replacing the population with fresh settlers after Chaos incursions.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

There's likely 50,000 Dark Angels. Not 15,000.

where is your 50, 000 number from?

As a Legion the Dark Angels numbered around ~100,000. If very generously we assume that something as drastic as 50% of the Dark Angels rebelled on Caliban (more likely something like 30% or 40%) , then there would still be around 50k Dark Angels who would then split up into fifty Chapters. Plus, there's a thousand or so Chapters of Space Marines as of M41, almost all of which are unnamed. There is no reason at all to assume the named chapters represent the majority of a Chapter's foundings. The Dark Angels certainly haven't been reduced in numbers to the level of the Thousand Sons, the singular tiniest Legion during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

That does not take into account that a large part, if not the majority of the Imperium would side with the Primarch. He is the son of their god after all, so that makes him Space Jesus. If Jesus were to return to Earth, most if not all Christians would follow him, even if he went against the Church and government. In 40k it would likely not be much different.

If Jesus had brothers who had gone batnerf insane back in the old days and caused untold destruction, it might be a bit differant. if the Lion went all rebel it'd be REAAAAALLLY easy to cast him as "Horus reborn"

I highly doubt the average Imperial citizen knows of the Horus Heresy or fallen Primarchs. It might undermine their fate, plus it would make them aware of Chaos, something which the Inquisition really tries to prevent, even going to the point of executing entire worlds and replacing the population with fresh settlers after Chaos incursions.

Imperial Citizens know who Horus is. They just don't know who he actually was, and that Astartes ever turned traitor to begin with. Horus is known, however he's more like Satan to Medieval peasants then anything else.

The Phalanx and the Rock are pretty much the same strength

End times are already starting

*Tyranids be going cray and something even biggers coming to devour the universe
*Necrons are waking up more and more and are exterminating everything
*Ghazkhull is probably gonna launch a waugh on a scale not seen since Ullanor plus gork and mork may make an appearance
*Tau although fairly useless are swalling imperial worlds cause the imperium doesnt have the resources to deal with it
*Eldar are on the verge on extermination
*Dark eldar i say are on the same boat as eldar

Not only that but one of the most power chaos servants in the galaxy (Abaddon) is leading a force quite literally straigh out of hell (some say twice or three times as more powerful than the forces Horus had)

So with the imperium facing annhaliation i hardly think they would risk a civil war to take out someone they desperately need. Not only that considering the primarchs are myths and legends the direct children of the holy emperor i doubt killing him would go down well with any of the 1 million odd space marines or the millions of citizens of the imperium including the highlords themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to add but it's suspected that around 10 percent of all chapters are apparently descendents of the first legion so thats around 100,000 marins give or take

 mitch_rifle wrote:
End times are already starting

*Tyranids be going cray and something even biggers coming to devour the universe
*Necrons are waking up more and more and are exterminating everything
*Ghazkhull is probably gonna launch a waugh on a scale not seen since Ullanor plus gork and mork may make an appearance
*Tau although fairly useless are swalling imperial worlds cause the imperium doesnt have the resources to deal with it
*Eldar are on the verge on extermination
*Dark eldar i say are on the same boat as eldar

Not only that but one of the most power chaos servants in the galaxy (Abaddon) is leading a force quite literally straigh out of hell (some say twice or three times as more powerful than the forces Horus had)

So with the imperium facing annhaliation i hardly think they would risk a civil war to take out someone they desperately need. Not only that considering the primarchs are myths and legends the direct children of the holy emperor i doubt killing him would go down well with any of the 1 million odd space marines or the millions of citizens of the imperium including the highlords themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to add but it's suspected that around 10 percent of all chapters are apparently descendents of the first legion so thats around 100,000 marins give or take

I thought it would be a 'ded giveaway when M42 is called "The Time of Ending"

 mitch_rifle wrote:
End times are already starting

*Tyranids be going cray and something even biggers coming to devour the universe
*Necrons are waking up more and more and are exterminating everything
*Ghazkhull is probably gonna launch a waugh on a scale not seen since Ullanor plus gork and mork may make an appearance
*Tau although fairly useless are swalling imperial worlds cause the imperium doesnt have the resources to deal with it
*Eldar are on the verge on extermination
*Dark eldar i say are on the same boat as eldar

Not only that but one of the most power chaos servants in the galaxy (Abaddon) is leading a force quite literally straigh out of hell (some say twice or three times as more powerful than the forces Horus had)

So with the imperium facing annhaliation i hardly think they would risk a civil war to take out someone they desperately need. Not only that considering the primarchs are myths and legends the direct children of the holy emperor i doubt killing him would go down well with any of the 1 million odd space marines or the millions of citizens of the imperium including the highlords themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to add but it's suspected that around 10 percent of all chapters are apparently descendents of the first legion so thats around 100,000 marins give or take

I'd be hesitant to call Abaddon one of the most powerful chaos servants

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

There's likely 50,000 Dark Angels. Not 15,000.

where is your 50, 000 number from?

As a Legion the Dark Angels numbered around ~100,000. If very generously we assume that something as drastic as 50% of the Dark Angels rebelled on Caliban (more likely something like 30% or 40%) , then there would still be around 50k Dark Angels who would then split up into fifty Chapters. Plus, there's a thousand or so Chapters of Space Marines as of M41, almost all of which are unnamed. There is no reason at all to assume the named chapters represent the majority of a Chapter's foundings. The Dark Angels certainly haven't been reduced in numbers to the level of the Thousand Sons, the singular tiniest Legion during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy.

The Dark Angels were of average Legion size, which is 115,000. Now, they were clearly not EXACTLY 115k, but that somewhere around that number. Also, it is directly stated that at the time the Luther started his rebellion, there was only one Chapter there - 1k Marines. Now, realistically, Caliban probably went into recruiting overdrive after rebelling, because if the Legion ever came back then they wanted to be ready to fend them off - even if they failed miserably. After the campaign against the Night Lords, the Dark Angels were heavily drained of men due to fething slaughtering an entire Legion Fleet, so they were probably down to ~75k, then after the Scouring and dealing with Caliban, probably about 70k. Add on to that any newly-formed successor Chapters over the last 10k years, and you've probably got at least twice that number.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mitch_rifle wrote:
End times are already starting

*Tyranids be going cray and something even biggers coming to devour the universe
*Necrons are waking up more and more and are exterminating everything
*Ghazkhull is probably gonna launch a waugh on a scale not seen since Ullanor plus gork and mork may make an appearance
*Tau although fairly useless are swalling imperial worlds cause the imperium doesnt have the resources to deal with it
*Eldar are on the verge on extermination
*Dark eldar i say are on the same boat as eldar

Not only that but one of the most power chaos servants in the galaxy (Abaddon) is leading a force quite literally straigh out of hell (some say twice or three times as more powerful than the forces Horus had)

So with the imperium facing annhaliation i hardly think they would risk a civil war to take out someone they desperately need. Not only that considering the primarchs are myths and legends the direct children of the holy emperor i doubt killing him would go down well with any of the 1 million odd space marines or the millions of citizens of the imperium including the highlords themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to add but it's suspected that around 10 percent of all chapters are apparently descendents of the first legion so thats around 100,000 marins give or take

We're basically at the prelude to the end times. We've been at the prelude for like fifteen years, now, though.

this is of course assuming the dark angels sucessors all survived, which is a rather large assumption

Well, now I'm curious as to the actual size of the DA legion post heresy and in the 41M.
I don't think that they would number in the 100,000. After all, chapters die.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
after 10 000 years, I would say take one hell of a morning piss..

Seconded!

Unfortunately, I see the 41st High Lords of Terra as more self serving bureaucratic and thus, would order the assassination of ANY primarch coming back into the galaxy.

Heck, since the BL writers just couldn't help but bleed their own personal beliefs into 30k (Imperium being about secular/atheism. I tend to filter this out in my version of 30k), that the current Ecclesiarchy would immediately declare a primarch a heretic - once they started blabbing about the Imperial Truth.

I know this is a bit of a tangent, and I apologize for any feathers I'm about to ruffle, but any 'superhuman, demigod' like creature accepting the notion of secularism and atheism as a legitimate way, has failed somewhere fundamentally. If anything, I could only see them as a tool at best.

The matter of ultimate reality is a subject that the Emperor and primarchs should have a solid understanding of - if they truly were superior. Fleshing out the 'Imperial Truth' as a way of life, with no ultimate purpose other than the dominance of humanity over a galaxy, with no eternal answers, is beyond hollow in believability.

The great table will be sundered as the deep magics work upon him and take their course.

The great lion shall arise with the dawn and the White Witch smote asunder


Narnia will be free

Just some information on the Dark Angels and their Foundings

Their Index Astartes Article says

There are no know aberrations in the Dark Angels' gene-seed which makes the reluctance of the High Lords of Terra to utilise it in the founding of new Chapters perplexing. No doubt there are other successor Chapters of the Dark Angels, but their names and when they were founded are unrecorded.

And the Codex.

Although frequently passed over in subsequent Space Marine foundings, the Dark Angels have periodically been requested to give gene-seed to found new Chapters.

Although duty­ bound to run their formations independently, it is strongly suspected by some within the Imperium that the Dark Angels' Successor Chapters show too much deference to the Supreme Grand Master of their originating Chapter. It is, at least partially, this rumour of 'Legion-building' that often persuades the High Lords of Terra to ovedook the Dark Angels' gene-seed when seeking to create further Foundings.

So where they do have foundings and some unnamed, it's likely that they possibly don't have quite the amounts that are being mentioned.

The Angels of Vigilance are only rumoured to be Dark Angel successors and the Lion Sables were lost in the Eye after finding Cypher.

Even if the Dark Angels are frequently passed over, 50K still seems like a solid figure. They were one of the more intact legions at the end of the Heresy so the Second Founding alone could account for 50+ chapters. Out of a million space marines that still seems like a low figure, considering their geneseed is among the purest.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Even if the Dark Angels are frequently passed over, 50K still seems like a solid figure. They were one of the more intact legions at the end of the Heresy so the Second Founding alone could account for 50+ chapters. Out of a million space marines that still seems like a low figure, considering their geneseed is among the purest.

We don't know how they fare during the heresy. We don't know how much they lost during the Thramas Crusade, en route to Terra or at Fall of Caliban.

But that's why I said 'possibly don't' and not 'don't' as yeah, they could have 50,0000 marines. I just don't think it is likely, as out of the 11 named Chapters one is destroyed and the other might not even be Dark Angels.

 raiden wrote:
When the lion comes back he will, based off his BL books, begin a new crusade to make safe the universe. Probably starting with chaos.

Or alternatively, the theories that he actually sided with chaos - and that the Unforgiven are the good guys comes to pass as he leads an unholy crusade to take back the galaxy.

His first order of business should be to usurp Failbaddon for mucking everything up for 10,000 years, then unite the legions, then to Terra to fell the corpse god.

Lion: "Luther! 'Chu got some 'splainin' to dooooo!"

(The Lion produces a conga drum from under his cloak and strikes up the band)

Luther: "UWAAAAAAAAAAH!"

 Frazzled wrote:

 raiden wrote:
When the lion comes back he will, based off his BL books, begin a new crusade to make safe the universe. Probably starting with chaos.

Or alternatively, the theories that he actually sided with chaos - and that the Unforgiven are the good guys comes to pass as he leads an unholy crusade to take back the galaxy.

His first order of business should be to usurp Failbaddon for mucking everything up for 10,000 years, then unite the legions, then to Terra to fell the corpse god.

Assuming he did turn to Chaos, I think he would surpass Abaddon quite easily

Just like all the other chaos primarchs did.... oh wait.

kveldulf wrote:
Unfortunately, I see the 41st High Lords of Terra as more self serving bureaucratic and thus, would order the assassination of ANY primarch coming back into the galaxy.

Heck, since the BL writers just couldn't help but bleed their own personal beliefs into 30k (Imperium being about secular/atheism. I tend to filter this out in my version of 30k), that the current Ecclesiarchy would immediately declare a primarch a heretic - once they started blabbing about the Imperial Truth.

I know this is a bit of a tangent, and I apologize for any feathers I'm about to ruffle, but any 'superhuman, demigod' like creature accepting the notion of secularism and atheism as a legitimate way, has failed somewhere fundamentally. If anything, I could only see them as a tool at best.

The matter of ultimate reality is a subject that the Emperor and primarchs should have a solid understanding of - if they truly were superior. Fleshing out the 'Imperial Truth' as a way of life, with no ultimate purpose other than the dominance of humanity over a galaxy, with no eternal answers, is beyond hollow in believability.

I never saw it as trying to bleed in their personal belives so much as further grim darking the Heresy, by basicly having the entire IoM as we know it in direct oppisition to what the emperor was actually trying to achomplish

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Just like all the other chaos primarchs did.... oh wait.

? Not sure what you mean, but Horus did more to damage the IoM than Abaddon ever did.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Just like all the other chaos primarchs did.... oh wait.

? Not sure what you mean, but Horus did more to damage the IoM than Abaddon ever did.

I think he means that Abaddon is still alive, kicking, and fighting the good fight. Horus and several of the others are dead, and those who still survive are pretty much non-issues and unable to replace Abby as the "leader" of the traitor forces.

The other traitor primarchs are daemon though so can't lead forces out of the warp unless summoned and then go back after an amount of time. I'm sure a non daemon primarch would vastly surpass abaddon in favor.

 tikhunt wrote:
The other traitor primarchs are daemon though so can't lead forces out of the warp unless summoned and then go back after an amount of time. I'm sure a non daemon primarch would vastly surpass abaddon in favor.

Arguable. Abaddon is favored by all of the Gods, not just one like each of the Primarchs.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 tikhunt wrote:
The other traitor primarchs are daemon though so can't lead forces out of the warp unless summoned and then go back after an amount of time. I'm sure a non daemon primarch would vastly surpass abaddon in favor.

Arguable. Abaddon is favored by all of the Gods, not just one like each of the Primarchs.

Well both Lorgar and Pertuarbo are undivided.

All the surviving chaos primarchs were made to swear fealty to Abbadon, iirc.

IIRC they didn't swear fealty to him so much as pledge their support for the 13th Black Crusade. It still is impressive that Abaddon got the support of ALL of them, though (with the exception of Magnus, possibly. Instead he got Ahriman IIRC).

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
All the surviving chaos primarchs were made to swear fealty to Abbadon, iirc.

Well, I think its time for a revision. After 12(13) crusades, not much has happened

TiamatRoar wrote:
IIRC they didn't swear fealty to him so much as pledge their support for the 13th Black Crusade. It still is impressive that Abaddon got the support of ALL of them, though (with the exception of Magnus, possibly. Instead he got Ahriman IIRC).

Talon of Horus refers, multiple times, to Magnus being forced to kneel before Abaddon.

kveldulf wrote:
Heck, since the BL writers just couldn't help but bleed their own personal beliefs into 30k (Imperium being about secular/atheism. I tend to filter this out in my version of 30k)

I thought this was supposed to be ironic, given that the Imperial Truth as taught to the Imperium of 30K deliberately conceals the existence of Chaos daemons and sorcery?

In other words, Imperial Truth is an atheist and materialist creed, but the Warhammer universe contains both gods and the supernatural. That's deliberate, I think. The Emperor wants his Imperium to be rational and materialist, because he thinks it will keep it safe from the supernatural powers of the Warp, but he's wrong. It just leaves the citizens and the Astartes, especially, vulnerable in their ignorance.

One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

Still, he's had how many tries?

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

Maybe not in their eyes. But his goal is to destroy the Imperium, and at that he isn't doing so hot. Most of the Daemon Primarchs are off doing their own thing too.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

Maybe not in their eyes. But his goal is to destroy the Imperium, and at that he isn't doing so hot. Most of the Daemon Primarchs are off doing their own thing too.

Wouldn't one of their goals be to destroy the IoM? I'm not saying everyone, but I would think that at least Angron or Magnus would want to come back and would probably be better at leading the next crusade.

No. The Chaos Gods want everything to remain basically how it is. A perpetual state of war and chaos. Destroying the Imperium wouldn't accomplish that.

They want the Imperium to remain for eternity, a foe for them to fight.

Being a Dark Angel, and having the inherent Chapter trait of being irrelevant and unimpressive (cough being incapacitated by a non-Marine cough), he'd probably win a few battles and then get killed by something nasty. The Eldar or Chaos would have it in their interests to see him dead to stop the Imperium from getting a brand new Primarch Warmaster or even leader along with all the conquest and death that'd bring , since he'd probably try to get in that position being the arrogant schmuck he is.

The Inquisition would have a few words with him, question how he just showed up out of the blue with no warning, and then try to remove him as well as soon as he started motioning towards assuming control over Imperial forces or sectors, since they're equally as big pricks as he is.

Bonus (G.O.T season three spoilers)

 Grey Templar wrote:
No. The Chaos Gods want everything to remain basically how it is. A perpetual state of war and chaos. Destroying the Imperium wouldn't accomplish that.

They want the Imperium to remain for eternity, a foe for them to fight.

Sorry, I suppose I should have been clearer. I know the gods want balance, but don't the Primarchs want revenge?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Being a Dark Angel, and having the inherent Chapter trait of being irrelevant and unimpressive (cough being incapacitated by a non-Marine cough), he'd probably win a few battles and then get killed by something nasty. The Eldar or Chaos would have it in their interests to see him dead to stop the Imperium from getting a brand new Primarch Warmaster or even leader along with all the conquest and death that'd bring , since he'd probably try to get in that position being the arrogant schmuck he is.

The Inquisition would have a few words with him, question how he just showed up out of the blue with no warning, and then try to remove him as well as soon as he started motioning towards assuming control over Imperial forces or sectors, since they're equally as big pricks as he is.

Bonus (G.O.T season three spoilers)

Spoiler:

In a manner of speaking he'd be like Robb Stark, but in the 41st millennium.

Well alrighty then. Did the IoM take your lunch money?

Unremembered empire quoted 20,000 dark angels in empirum second us. In master of the first, there were 30,000 dark angels on Caliban. At the destruction of Caliban, I'd imagine both sides would have lost heavy numbers.

 Inkubas wrote:
Unremembered empire quoted 20,000 dark angels in empirum second us. In master of the first, there were 30,000 dark angels on Caliban. At the destruction of Caliban, I'd imagine both sides would have lost heavy numbers.

Again, there was only half a chapter of Crusaders on Dusara when Luther first rebelled, along with a recently finished Scout Chapter. So those 30k were Astartes trained during the 7 years during the Heresy, and the DA were spread pretty thin, with the bulk of their forces NOT at Imperium Secundus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, the DA still had around 115k during their war with the Night Lords, wherein just about all of then we're engaged with the NL. 20k of the survivors of the war with the NL went to the Imperium Secundus to be dicks to the Smurfs while an undetermined number stated behind and mopped up the NL and were spread all across the galaxy

Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

 Inkubas wrote:
Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

115k is the official average number of Astartes in an average Legion.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

115k is the official average number of Astartes in an average Legion.

isn't that average skewed by the Ultramarines apparently being so much bigger though? also that's the pre-heresy average. I imagine most legions numbers where lower after the heresy. especially when you realize the dark angels proably where getting ZERO replacement troops during the conflict

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

115k is the official average number of Astartes in an average Legion.

isn't that average skewed by the Ultramarines apparently being so much bigger though? also that's the pre-heresy average. I imagine most legions numbers where lower after the heresy. especially when you realize the dark angels proably where getting ZERO replacement troops during the conflict

Hence the 70k hopeful estimate I gave. I'd say closer to 50k, though. And, the Dark Angels were said to be of average size, so I'd assume they were around that number.

I don't want to see primarchs in 40k since that's the most of the appeal of HH games.

 dusara217 wrote:
Hence the 70k hopeful estimate I gave. I'd say closer to 50k, though. And, the Dark Angels were said to be of average size, so I'd assume they were around that number.

50k is a good number but a low estimate. That would still be only 0.05% of all chapters (using 1000 as the average number). If you only look at known successors (11 being the figure given earlier in the thread), that's a measly 0.012% of all chapters. Given how pure the Dark Angels geneseed is, this seems extremely unlikely, even with the High Lords' reluctance to form new chapters.

We're looking at potentially 50k+ Dark Angels at the time of the Second Founding. It's likely there have been more foundings in the 10k years since then. 10 thousand years is a long time. We haven't even been able to write for that long.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Hence the 70k hopeful estimate I gave. I'd say closer to 50k, though. And, the Dark Angels were said to be of average size, so I'd assume they were around that number.

50k is a good number but a low estimate. That would still be only 0.05% of all chapters (using 1000 as the average number). If you only look at known successors (11 being the figure given earlier in the thread), that's a measly 0.012% of all chapters. Given how pure the Dark Angels geneseed is, this seems extremely unlikely, even with the High Lords' reluctance to form new chapters.

We're looking at potentially 50k+ Dark Angels at the time of the Second Founding. It's likely there have been more foundings in the 10k years since then. 10 thousand years is a long time. We haven't even been able to write for that long.

true but one thing to consider are that just cause you're founded with the gene seed of one chapter doesn't nesscarily mean the chapter knows or cares. if the high lords where concerned about legion building I suspect they'd be tight lipped more often then not about when they used Dark Angel geneseed. if they don't TELL the dark angels their geneseed is being used to found the Random Chapter. the the inital trainers of the random chapter, are brought in from say... Ultramarines, chances are their connection with the unforgiven will be pretty minimal. the dark angels noted gene seed purity would even work against them as there would be precious few genetic tells to tell the differance between their geneseed and say... Ultramarines geneseed.

BrianDavion wrote:
true but one thing to consider are that just cause you're founded with the gene seed of one chapter doesn't nesscarily mean the chapter knows or cares. if the high lords where concerned about legion building I suspect they'd be tight lipped more often then not about when they used Dark Angel geneseed. if they don't TELL the dark angels their geneseed is being used to found the Random Chapter. the the inital trainers of the random chapter, are brought in from say... Ultramarines, chances are their connection with the unforgiven will be pretty minimal. the dark angels noted gene seed purity would even work against them as there would be precious few genetic tells to tell the differance between their geneseed and say... Ultramarines geneseed.

Yea, I agree, not all successor chapters would be part of the Unforgiven. Most of the Unforgiven are probably from the Second Founding since the founding members of these chapters would have been directly involved in the events on Caliban.

Still, 11 chapters is too low an estimate for the Unforgiven. I think only 3 of them are confirmed as Second Founding chapters. Surely there were more than 4000 Dark Angels left at the end of the Heresy?

I like the idea of not telling the parent chapters when their geneseed is used

Actually, if anything, that would only mean there are even more Dark Angels successors since the High Lords would be able to use their pure geneseed more freely.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
true but one thing to consider are that just cause you're founded with the gene seed of one chapter doesn't nesscarily mean the chapter knows or cares. if the high lords where concerned about legion building I suspect they'd be tight lipped more often then not about when they used Dark Angel geneseed. if they don't TELL the dark angels their geneseed is being used to found the Random Chapter. the the inital trainers of the random chapter, are brought in from say... Ultramarines, chances are their connection with the unforgiven will be pretty minimal. the dark angels noted gene seed purity would even work against them as there would be precious few genetic tells to tell the differance between their geneseed and say... Ultramarines geneseed.

Yea, I agree, not all successor chapters would be part of the Unforgiven. Most of the Unforgiven are probably from the Second Founding since the founding members of these chapters would have been directly involved in the events on Caliban.

Still, 11 chapters is too low an estimate for the Unforgiven. I think only 3 of them are confirmed as Second Founding chapters. Surely there were more than 4000 Dark Angels left at the end of the Heresy?

I like the idea of not telling the parent chapters when their geneseed is used

Actually, if anything, that would only mean there are even more Dark Angels successors since the High Lords would be able to use their pure geneseed more freely.

I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

Not really. Caliban was essentially one teleport assault followed by exterminatus.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

50K is the result of the battle.

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

Remember that while the Ultramarines pull up the 115k average, others like Salamanders, Raven Guard and Thousand Sons pull it down.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

Not really. Caliban was essentially one teleport assault followed by exterminatus.

Okay, well I can see that happening. There were like 400.000 Space Marines left after the HH and the DA was not that badly hit.

I think all the legions were crippled to different degrees. It wouldn't shock me to find out that the legions were all at a 1/10 of what they were before hand. It took many years for some legions to rebuild and depending on which fluff you follow, there are still some legions that haven't fully recovered.

Of course. Just the Ultramarines were relatively lightly damaged (despite Calth and I don't think causalities meant 100.000 of their number were killed there, plus they were quite efficient in procuring new members) and comprised like 60% of the chapters.

I must admit some skepticism in that the Dark Angels comprised of so many Space Marines as they are not that used, but it seems likely they dropped off the ones they didn't trust, nor did they tell them of their secret shame and how secretive they are in the end has served them really badly when it comes to the High Lords and the Inquisition as that has been well established in canon.

 Orblivion wrote:

Dorn was against it initially but changed his mind, plus he's dead.
Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and obviously Guilliman were for it.
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead.
That only leaves the Lion and Russ who were against it.

The Lion was already lost before the breakdown of the legions into chapters. Caliban had already been destroyed. The remaining Dark Angels were the first to sign up for it because they didn't want the truth about Caliban's destruction getting out and wanted to appear to be just the most loyal of loyal people.

Anyway, my guess as to how it'd go down:

Highlords panic. After all it's been like 6,000 years since any primarch roamed the galaxy. I imagine they'd view him as a fossil of a bygone age and a threat to their power simply by existing. There's probably at least one highlord who's in on the Dark Angels secrets however (considering how often they are tapped in secret to form a new chapter, etc.) so the internal power struggle of the courts would be something crazy to witness.

His first actions would be to unify the Unforgiven which, out of all the remnants of the legions would be easiest to do as they already basically still function like a legion. All their leaders keep on contact and know about the true secrets of their chapter after all, and there's been times in the past where chapter and company masters were temporarily filled by members of the other successor chapters until a new leader was chosen. That's straight from the codex. Honestly, as some of the remnants of the fight on Caliban are still popping up into real space without realizing any time at all has taken place, I bet half of the "chaos" ones would return to the fold, further straining the situation on Terra.

What he does from there is just a matter of where GW would want to take it. Does he search for his missing brothers? Does he seek a way to heal Guilliman, chase into the Webways after Corvus Corax and Jhagati Khan, hunt down for proof of what happened to Rogal Dorn, or maybe assist the Salamanders in recovering Vulkan's lost masterworks? Maybe after unifying his legion, he'd set out to eliminate the Tyranid threat as it's the most pressing state of doom facing the Imperium of Mankind. Maybe the Highlords flip out and declare war, claiming his return is a Chaos trick. What role does Cypher play in all this?

Lots of questions. All I know is there's a zillion awesome directions to take it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Remember that while the Ultramarines pull up the 115k average, others like Salamanders, Raven Guard and Thousand Sons pull it down.

The Thousand Sons are the exception rather than the rule. Even smaller legions like the Raven Guard had 80,000 marines, and that was a direct result of the heavy casualties sustained at the Battle of Gate Forty-Two:

"The effects of the battle were far-reaching for the Raven Guard. Its numbers were sorely depleted after the battle, and the Legion numbered only 80,000 Marines after the battle. Corax removed his forces from Horus' command, bitterly swearing to never serve alongside the Warmaster again." (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Gate_Forty-Two).

There's also this from the Index Astartes Vol 1, page 20 from The Lion and the Wolf entry:
"Only Horus and Lion El'Jonson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him."

They would need decent numbers to achieve that many victories so it seems to me that any number from 100k-150k for the legion seems reasonable (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#Number_of_Legionaries). That's still less than or equal to the number of Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Night Lords.

They were also on the winning side of the Thramas Crusade, where the Night Lords lost a quarter of their fleet (which would suggest that the Dark Angels lost less).

Even with 25% casualties in the Thramas Crusade (unlikely) and 50% casualties at Caliban (which is extremely unlikely, see rest of the thread), using the lower figure of 100k would leave you with 37,500 at the time of the Second Founding.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Lots of questions. All I know is there's a zillion awesome directions to take it.

Yea, that's pretty much my opinion as well. I'd prefer if not too many Primarchs return since that would lessen the impact.

What if Matt Ward were Guilliman in disguise?

 Pyeatt wrote:
What if Matt Ward were Guilliman in disguise?

Actually the char I closest come to be Matt Ward is Thiel. Guilliman seems like a good enough guy and I found it hilarious that he thinks of himself as handsome in the works of Dan Abnett.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

You're quite right. I did the crunch on the amount of Chapters by the end of the 3rd Founding (thus giving a guide for the breakdown of later percentages), and the UMs only accounted for ~30%. This means the Foundings would've been far larger than just the named Chapters.

Though Legion differs on the gene-seed. The Cabal tells Grammaticus specifically that the DA's gene-seed isn't pure enough (for the Cabal's purposes) for them due to the speed at which replacements were required to keep them up to strength during the Great Crusade.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

You're quite right. I did the crunch on the amount of Chapters by the end of the 3rd Founding (thus giving a guide for the breakdown of later percentages), and the UMs only accounted for ~30%. This means the Foundings would've been far larger than just the named Chapters.

Though Legion differs on the gene-seed. The Cabal tells Grammaticus specifically that the DA's gene-seed isn't pure enough (for the Cabal's purposes) for them due to the speed at which replacements were required to keep them up to strength during the Great Crusade.

It might not be a contradiction depending on the context. If the only legion with pure enough gene-seed for their purposes was the Alpha Legion, then that would mean their gene-seed was even purer than that of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, not that the Dark Angels gene-seed isn't pure.

The Alpha Legion was also the newest legion at the time (and rather small) so it wasn't subjected to the increased recruitment rates the other legions were going through.

I also found this thread discussing gene-seed purity. It also has a chart where the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Imperial Fists are shown to have the same rates of mutation (interpretations in that thread).
Legions/Primarchs ranked by purity of gene-seed
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/578940.page

Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

You're quite right. I did the crunch on the amount of Chapters by the end of the 3rd Founding (thus giving a guide for the breakdown of later percentages), and the UMs only accounted for ~30%. This means the Foundings would've been far larger than just the named Chapters.

Though Legion differs on the gene-seed. The Cabal tells Grammaticus specifically that the DA's gene-seed isn't pure enough (for the Cabal's purposes) for them due to the speed at which replacements were required to keep them up to strength during the Great Crusade.

It might not be a contradiction depending on the context. If the only legion with pure enough gene-seed for their purposes was the Alpha Legion, then that would mean their gene-seed was even purer than that of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, not that the Dark Angels gene-seed isn't pure.

The Alpha Legion was also the newest legion at the time (and rather small) so it wasn't subjected to the increased recruitment rates the other legions were going through.

I also found this thread discussing gene-seed purity. It also has a chart where the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Imperial Fists are shown to have the same rates of mutation (interpretations in that thread).
Legions/Primarchs ranked by purity of gene-seed
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/578940.page

Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

It seems to me that the original Chapters each had 5k-10k Space Marines (a much more logical number for such a fighting force), but the High Lords castrated them even further by cutting them down to 1k Marines to a Chapter and modifying the Codex so that (eventually) nobody would know the difference. Just my interpretation.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

It might not be a contradiction depending on the context. If the only legion with pure enough gene-seed for their purposes was the Alpha Legion, then that would mean their gene-seed was even purer than that of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, not that the Dark Angels gene-seed isn't pure.

The Alpha Legion was also the newest legion at the time (and rather small) so it wasn't subjected to the increased recruitment rates the other legions were going through.

I also found this thread discussing gene-seed purity. It also has a chart where the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Imperial Fists are shown to have the same rates of mutation (interpretations in that thread).
Legions/Primarchs ranked by purity of gene-seed
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/578940.page

Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

Oh, I agree! I was just fanboying a bit, I'm just saying prior to the Heresy, the Alpha Legion's gene-seed was the purest and least mutated. That doesn't mean it still is, or that it mutates slower, just that it wasn't subject to the same stress as the other Legions, though their estimated Legion strength does put them at 180,000 at the beginning of the Heresy.

Though it's pretty obvious that the lists we have of Chapters isn't complete; even the missing Legions are meant as blanks for the players themselves to fill out with their own Chapters and Legions. However, from a practical viewpoint, mentioning a somewhat even number of Successor Chapters from each Legion/Chapter, as it allows the player more room to play around.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Oh, I agree! I was just fanboying a bit, I'm just saying prior to the Heresy, the Alpha Legion's gene-seed was the purest and least mutated. That doesn't mean it still is, or that it mutates slower, just that it wasn't subject to the same stress as the other Legions, though their estimated Legion strength does put them at 180,000 at the beginning of the Heresy.

Though it's pretty obvious that the lists we have of Chapters isn't complete; even the missing Legions are meant as blanks for the players themselves to fill out with their own Chapters and Legions. However, from a practical viewpoint, mentioning a somewhat even number of Successor Chapters from each Legion/Chapter, as it allows the player more room to play around.

Yea, I was just pointing out how the Dark Angels could have some of the purest gene-seed around while still not being pure enough in that context. I didn't know that about the Alpha Legion, very interesting. They're my favorite among the traitors but I haven't gotten around to reading Legion.

And yea, exactly, the listed chapters are there to provide some examples and to set the general tone of how the successor chapters might be or how they can differ from the parent chapter (for example, Black Templars are quite different from the Imperial Fists even though they are a Second Founding chapter).

The reason I even bring up the Foundings is because people in the thread were using the listed chapters as proof that there are only ~12k DAs around (when the listed chapters aren't enough to support the 2/3rds of all chapters are Ultramarines either).

Honestly, I didn't even seriously think about the number of Unforgiven before this thread. I was like, huh 'legion building,' looked at the listed chapters, thought "that's a lot!," then moved on. It's only when I read this thread and started thinking about the actual figures that the 12k stopped making sense.

 Inkubas wrote:
I think all the legions were crippled to different degrees. It wouldn't shock me to find out that the legions were all at a 1/10 of what they were before hand. It took many years for some legions to rebuild and depending on which fluff you follow, there are still some legions that haven't fully recovered.

If you use the listed chapters from the Second Founding then ALL parent chapters are at less than 1/10 of what they were beforehand. There's nothing in the fluff to support casualties of this magnitude for all the legions.

 dusara217 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

It seems to me that the original Chapters each had 5k-10k Space Marines (a much more logical number for such a fighting force), but the High Lords castrated them even further by cutting them down to 1k Marines to a Chapter and modifying the Codex so that (eventually) nobody would know the difference. Just my interpretation.

10k would be a more reasonable number, even current fluff-wise. But I'm not sure the Astartes would submit to further breaking down the strength of the chapters if the Primarchs weren't around to back it.

They would likely submit to the High Lords. But Guilliman early on submitted the chapters into pieces of 1.000, Me for my part think he first made them into 10.000 at first but that force could easily conquer a vast tract of planets so he diminished the force further as the Ultras according to the first sources were split 23 times and were about 250.000 strong according to Dan Abnett.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They would likely submit to the High Lords. But Guilliman early on submitted the chapters into pieces of 1.000, Me for my part think he first made them into 10.000 at first but that force could easily conquer a vast tract of planets so he diminished the force further as the Ultras according to the first sources were split 23 times and were about 250.000 strong according to Dan Abnett.

250k BEFORE casualties sustained against the Word Bearers, the Alpha Legion, and other casualties sustained during the Great Scouring.

I find it odd that a 250k figure for the Ultramarines at the time of the Second Founding is so easy to accept (when the events of the Horus Heresy make this impossible) yet a more substantial figure of more than 4k Dark Angels is met with such skepticism.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the fluff to suggest that the size of a chapter was further broken down. It might make sense but it would only be headcanon.

It's also worth noting that the 250k figure is from an interview and not directly from anything published by GW. So while it's possible, it's not really set in stone. Just as how there aren't only 12k Unforgiven because the number of listed chapters makes it so.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They would likely submit to the High Lords. But Guilliman early on submitted the chapters into pieces of 1.000, Me for my part think he first made them into 10.000 at first but that force could easily conquer a vast tract of planets so he diminished the force further as the Ultras according to the first sources were split 23 times and were about 250.000 strong according to Dan Abnett.

250k BEFORE casualties sustained against the Word Bearers, the Alpha Legion, and other casualties sustained during the Great Scouring.

I find it odd that a 250k figure for the Ultramarines at the time of the Second Founding is so easy to accept (when the events of the Horus Heresy make this impossible) yet a more substantial figure of more than 4k Dark Angels is met with such skepticism.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the fluff to suggest that the size of a chapter was further broken down. It might make sense but it would only be headcanon.

It's also worth noting that the 250k figure is from an interview and not directly from anything published by GW. So while it's possible, it's not really set in stone. Just as how there aren't only 12k Unforgiven because the number of listed chapters makes it so.

Its easy to accept because of the respect Dan Abnett commands as the word of God. Any other author and it would be more doubtful.

And yeah its actually just a popular fan-theory, nothing else.

Plus I think the Ultras was in a good position to replace their losses, and they managed to put a huge dent into the World Eaters with very few losses themselves. So they had very good strategy and tactics. Plus the World Eaters are notoriously bad there.

The thing with the Unforgiven is that they are so damn secretive. I think I read that somewhere, and neither the Inq nor the High Lords trust them in this regard which diminishes their return. I thought that the Imperial Fists were the second most numerous chapter when it came to having successors.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Its easy to accept because of the respect Dan Abnett commands as the word of God. Any other author and it would be more doubtful.

And yeah its actually just a popular fan-theory, nothing else.

Plus I think the Ultras was in a good position to replace their losses, and they managed to put a huge dent into the World Eaters with very few losses themselves. So they had very good strategy and tactics. Plus the World Eaters are notoriously bad there.

His works also have CSMs dying like flies to Guardsmen. Whatever the case, what he mentions in passing is not the same as having been written down in... anywhere.

I haven't read the Ultramarines novels in the HH series but I'm pretty sure they take heavy casualties. In Macragge's Honour, their flagship takes 85% casualties before the final engagement.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Calth

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The thing with the Unforgiven is that they are so damn secretive. I think I read that somewhere, and neither the Inq nor the High Lords trust them in this regard which diminishes their return. I thought that the Imperial Fists were the second most numerous chapter when it came to having successors.

Have you been keeping up with the thread? Already been addressed multiple times, even on this same page. If you disagree then address the arguments otherwise the thread will just go in circles.

And the Imperial Fists having the second most successors (whether backed up by fluff or not) doesn't really have anything to do with Dark Angels numbers. Again, a 50k figure would still only be 0.05% of all chapters.

The Ultarmarines successors are 2/3rds of all chapters, not 99%.

The DA numbers from the Second Founding alone would be enough for chapters in the double digits. Unless the High Lords got so distrustful they stopped using their geneseed completely AND decided to kill off all those extra DA running around...

Abnett is not without his faults. But in general he commands loads of respect from the fans, and I prefer going for sources rather than just making my own assumptions.

And I have never said that the Ultras are 99% of the Space Marines. Actually I thought the number were closer to 60% and I mixed in the Imp Fists because if the DA was that numerous the IF would be less numerous. Thats the relevance of the Imperial Fists in this matter.

As for the Unforgiven, well the High Lords just didn't replace their chapters in my mind due to not trusting them rather than killing them outright. If memory serves Azrael even had to petition them to make a successor-chapter of the DA.

And you seem damn argumentative over mere semantics.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Abnett is not without his faults. But in general he commands loads of respect from the fans, and I prefer going for sources rather than just making my own assumptions.

Not making your own assumptions by blatantly ignoring Ultramarine casualties? And by assuming they can just replace their casualties while other chapters like the DA can't? (I'm referring to the point you were making about casualties sustained on Caliban).

 Beaviz81 wrote:
And I have never said that the Ultras are 99% of the Space Marines. Actually I thought the number were closer to 60% and I mixed in the Imp Fists because if the DA was that numerous the IF would be less numerous. Thats the relevance of the Imperial Fists in this matter.

My point being that 1/3 out of a 1000 leaves a lot of space to fill. A ~50k or even 100k figure (which was so easily dismissed) is a drop in the bucket.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
As for the Unforgiven, well the High Lords just didn't replace their chapters in my mind due to not trusting them rather than killing them outright. If memory serves Azrael even had to petition them to make a successor-chapter of the DA.

And you seem damn argumentative over mere semantics.

You would have to kill the tens of thousands of Dark Angels still alive at the end of the Heresy to get a 12k current DA figure (with the original DAs chapter and only 3 Second Founding chapters).

If I seem argumentative then it's because I'm trying to get a simple point across, which somehow seems impossible. Suspicion from the inquisition is also addressed somewhat, scroll up or go back a page.

Causality doesn't always mean KIA. It just as often mean MIA, WIA or POW (just read a damn battle-report from a real battle), plus if anyone can survive their ship blowing up it should be a Space Marine. And there were 400 chapters jogging around when the Grey Knights were made. The majority of those were of Ultramarine-stock.

As said I think the High Lords and Inq let the Unforgiven chapters die out, I must admit I don't know that much about the Unforgiven as the Imperial Fists and the Space Wolves are my area. Obviously there were more chapters of them to begin with, but you must remember GW is anything but concistant when it comes to fluff and just as often contradicts themselves with undeclared author-wars and everything else.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

It seems to me that the original Chapters each had 5k-10k Space Marines (a much more logical number for such a fighting force), but the High Lords castrated them even further by cutting them down to 1k Marines to a Chapter and modifying the Codex so that (eventually) nobody would know the difference. Just my interpretation.

10k would be a more reasonable number, even current fluff-wise. But I'm not sure the Astartes would submit to further breaking down the strength of the chapters if the Primarchs weren't around to back it.

I don't know, shame goes a long way to making them submit.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Causality doesn't always mean KIA. It just as often mean MIA, WIA or POW (just read a damn battle-report from a real battle), plus if anyone can survive their ship blowing up it should be a Space Marine. And there were 400 chapters jogging around when the Grey Knights were made. The majority of those were of Ultramarine-stock.

As said I think the High Lords and Inq let the Unforgiven chapters die out, I must admit I don't know that much about the Unforgiven as the Imperial Fists and the Space Wolves are my area. Obviously there were more chapters of them to begin with, but you must remember GW is anything but concistant when it comes to fluff and just as often contradicts themselves with undeclared author-wars and everything else.

True, the fluff isn't very consistent and there are contradictions and retcons all over. The current inflated legion numbers are also more recent and contradict a lot of the established fluff.

That said, 400 chapters with a Ultramarine majority still wouldn't make a figure of ~50k DA improbable. The Grey Knights are a Second Founding chapter - that's only 7 years after the Heresy. At this time most loyalist chapters were badly mauled from the Dropsite Massacre (e.g. Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands) as well as from the Siege of Terra (Blood Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists). That means the Ultramarines and Dark Angels were two of the more intact legions at the time, which would inflate their numbers for the Second Founding. The losses they sustained during the Heresy don't really allow for anything much lower than that figure.

Also, at the time the High Lords had no reason to distrust them so subsequent distrust would have no effect on numbers from the Second Founding.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some of the original legions, like the Space Wolves and Salamanders , barely have any successor chapters, which means the one third of remaining chapters might not be spread as thinly as one might think.

(This also presents some fluff problems. If the Space Wolves barely have any successors, then where did all the Space Wolves who survived the Heresy go?)

Also casualties for the Ultramarines are the same as for everyone else. If Astartes are fighting each other and casualties for the other legions result result in serious losses (dead Astartes and reduced numbers) then casualties for the Ultramarines are the same. They had the largest legion which is why they still had a lot left but that doesn't mean they didn't sustain losses that would put them at less than full strength. Granted, they might have rebuilt in the years after the Heresy but why would they be the only legion to do so?

1.) All of the Legions tried to rebuild after the Heresy, Ultramarines just had the bureaucracy in place for rapid replacement of casualties.
2.) The Space Wolves were divided into 2 Chapters of ~20k Marines. One of the Chapters (the Wolf Brothers) was unable to control its geneseed and suffered from rapid mutation. After their Chapter basically fell apart due to the mutation, the survivors turned to Chaos and the Space Wolves were forced to put them down. The Space Wolves occasionally hear rumors about surviving Wolf Brothers and are honor-bound to hunt them down (similar to the Unforgiven, except the Space Wolves don't let it rule their entire existence). After that loss of something like 30k Marines (SW and WB losses), the Space Wolves basically slowly decreased in size until they leveled out at a size that they were able to maintain (1500-2500 Marines, though I think it's ~2k)

This is also a large part of the reason why I think that the 2nd Founding created Chapters of ~5k-10k Marines, and then they got broken down. It is possible that the Codex just got changed to be 1k Marines to a Chapter, and with each founding, the Founding Chapter would lose 1k Marines to form a new Chapter until they were forced to send training cadres and a barebones leadership structure.

 dusara217 wrote:
This is also a large part of the reason why I think that the 2nd Founding created Chapters of ~5k-10k Marines, and then they got broken down. It is possible that the Codex just got changed to be 1k Marines to a Chapter, and with each founding, the Founding Chapter would lose 1k Marines to form a new Chapter until they were forced to send training cadres and a barebones leadership structure.

Hmm, 10k a chapter would actually make a lot of sense with the given legion numbers.

I can see how the Ultramarines had a better recruitment system in place given that Caliban blew up. That would also explain how the Blood Angels have more successor chapters from that founding.

It's not stated in the fluff but it really does make a lot of sense. It would fix all the fluff contradictions, including the 23 Second Found chapters for the Ultramarines and only 3 given DA chapters. Think I'll adopt it for my head canon as well