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Post by: Niiru
Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?
I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p
For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?
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Post by: Happyjew
All on a Toughness 3 model with a 5+ save.
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Post by: Niiru
I'm assuming you're complaining because it can be instant-deathed?
For a start, he has Eternal Warrior, so no he can't.
Also he has a 3++ save, not a 5+.
He *is* toughness 3 though, so you got that part right lol.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
I think it's fairly balanced given how fragile the model is. Focus enough infantry small arms on it and he's bound to fail saves.
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Post by: Happyjew
Not complaining about insta-gibbing. And I missed the part about 3+.
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Post by: NoiseMarine with Tinnitus
Not wanting to derail but does anyone else think Cegorach may actually be the Deceiver (C'Tan)?
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Post by: Niiru
 Happyjew wrote:Not complaining about insta-gibbing. And I missed the part about 3+.
Unless Eternal Warrior has changed, he can't be instagibbed, so no big weapons are likely to do much damage to him.
However CustomLime is right, the Solitaire's weakness will be lots of small arms fire. But then thats the weakness of a lot of good units.
Looking at the points cost, the solitaire does seem to be essentially an Assassin (same points, same rule about being a loner... think its even the same armour save?). So I expect it will be run as a new much faster close combat assassin character (on paper he seems a lot better than the current CC assassins).
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Post by: vipoid
The Harlequins seem a bit pricey - especially after you start kitting them out. I wouldn't want to take them naked, but 23pts a model with the Caress is damn expensive for T3 guys.
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Post by: Niiru
Apparently the answer is no. There's a few reasons for this, but I dont have links for them so I'll let someone else quote, if they know lol.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Niiru wrote:Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?
I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p
For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?
I guess that I missed something.
The rules for the Solitaire are out?
I know this guy very well from the Gav Thorpe codex.
He has been a one man wrecking machine with 13 attacks on the charge.
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Post by: Makumba
Does he cost less then a WK?
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Yes and no. I think i have a solid theory which i put on this thread, page 2. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/632815.page By no means definitive, but it fits into my personal fan-hammer.
As for the Solitaire he fits right in with my null-deployment Dark Eldar list. Nothing on the board at the start of the game, everything should be on by turn 2. And with the Solitaire being so dam fast, he should be able to be a threat to a lot of the board due to Blitz so he can make his charge along with the rest of my scary stuff ala Dark Artisan's and Grotesques. He is also rather sexy, and i REALLY loved Motley. So for me it's a no-brainer. The Harlequins themselves? That will depend on that fancy new transport of theirs, if the Enigma's of the Black Library help them out and how the Shadowseer works.
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Post by: Happyjew
 wuestenfux wrote:Niiru wrote:Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?
I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p
For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?
I guess that I missed something.
The rules for the Solitaire are out?
I know this guy very well from the Gav Thorpe codex.
He has been a one man wrecking machine with 13 attacks on the charge.
The rules are available for Troupes and Solitaries in WD53. However, it does not have the datasheet for the transport option, nor the special relics that the Solitaire/Troupe Master can take.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Niiru wrote:Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?
I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p
For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?
Nah, the requirement to get them into combat is where they are terrible. CC is so bad for the points to damage ratio in this edition its almost laughable. The solitaire isn't that great, at 12 attacks on the charge vs marines he kills a whopping 3 marines putting him at 50pts per marine kill, where as say eldar guardians are 36pts per marine kill and do it at a 19 to 24" distance. Really the solitaire is better suited at stripping hull points off tanks, 1 from throwing a haywire, 1 from the caress and one from the kiss, that way he is actually earning back his point investment, trusting he isn't gunned down by bolters or lasguns, because even with the 3++ T3 and 3 wounds is junk.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Nevermind.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Uh, that's exactly what it says in WD--and the WD releases have been lifted from the Codices in the past.
Some specific parts of the rules(such as Warlord traits) have been omitted but nothing has actually been "wrong"
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Post by: Mordred
I would also love to feild them with my dark Angels as a cool offbeat allies
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Post by: Doomaflatchi
I'm personally not sold on the Blitz. You have to use what you roll instead of your normal 12" movement, and when you consider an average d6 roll of 3.5, it's more likely to be bad for you until the last few turns of the game. Seems like its best use will be after a Hit & Run before a re-charge just to get the extra attacks. :/ It's just not reliable enough to be a really solid tactical option like, say, the Dreadknight's teleport.
That being said, the new Troupe rules really excite me. Harlies used to basically be 22 points each, since the Kiss was nearly mandatory. Now, I see them as being 23 points, with the Caress as the weapon of choice (the new Kiss isn't really that good). So, for one point, they get to be Troops, get an even better melee weapon (one of the best in the game on Troops right now), gain Fear, gain the effect of assault grenades on the charge (new Flip Belt rules), 2+ LoS, a dedicated transport option, bigger squad size, the option for haywire grenades, and unseen wargear options for the Troupe Leader. 0_0 That's insane. These blitzing murder clowns are going to be the new standard for lightning fast assault armies.
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Post by: SagesStone
I'm liking the harlequin's embrace too. I agree the kiss isn't so great now it was replaced more or less by caress. 
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Post by: Doomaflatchi
 n0t_u wrote:I'm liking the harlequin's embrace too. I agree the kiss isn't so great now it was replaced more or less by caress.
Yeah, I'm not sure what the developer's thought process was on the new Kiss... there just seems to be no situation in which it's better than the Caress.
The Embrace looks nice on paper, but the more I work through the math the less I like it. Harlequins, with only their 5++, are going to have an incredible need to eliminate return attack in order to survive, and the Caress just seems so much more reliable in that regard. Skipping two whole phases of dice rolling (To Wound and Armor) is just so strong, and it seems to make the Embrace really struggle for relevance against anything 3+.
I don't know... is there some situation I'm missing that makes an Embrace worth taking over a Caress in an all-comers list? 
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Post by: SagesStone
 Doomaflatchi wrote: n0t_u wrote:I'm liking the harlequin's embrace too. I agree the kiss isn't so great now it was replaced more or less by caress.
Yeah, I'm not sure what the developer's thought process was on the new Kiss... there just seems to be no situation in which it's better than the Caress.
The Embrace looks nice on paper, but the more I work through the math the less I like it. Harlequins, with only their 5++, are going to have an incredible need to eliminate return attack in order to survive, and the Caress just seems so much more reliable in that regard. Skipping two whole phases of dice rolling (To Wound and Armor) is just so strong, and it seems to make the Embrace really struggle for relevance against anything 3+.
I don't know... is there some situation I'm missing that makes an Embrace worth taking over a Caress in an all-comers list?
I think it's more for light armoured hordes compared to the caress which is after power armour and terminators probably. It's probably too situational compared to the caress.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Well lets run some math for a guide.
a 10 man unit of Harlies is 225 to 255 with either all kisses, embraces, or all caresses, and haywire grenades on the squad leader.
If you manage to get them unscathed into combat, and that's a big if, you'll do the following:
Against 10 marines:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 6 dead at I10, followed by 41 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds, 4 more dead at I6. All dead with no swings back.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 6 dead followed by 31 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 more dead.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 11 wounds, 3 more dead.
Against say 20 guardsmen:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 11 dead, followed by 41 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 12 more dead.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 6 dead. 31 other attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 10 dead.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 15 wounds, 10 more dead.
Against tanks (I wont bother with kisses as they clearly wont be as good as others). Assume 1 HP gone from the Haywire grenade too. Anything with av 10 back armour will suffer 4 glances on average for a total of 5Hps before adding the specials
Embraces (remember hammer of wrath hits the side you are assaulting) :
Av10: 20 hits, 6 pens 4 glances
Av11: 20 hits, 3 pens, 3 glances
Av12: 20 hits, 3 glances
Av13 and 14: N/A
Caresses: All Av types: 41 attacks, 6 glances.
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Post by: God In Action
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Yes and no. I think i have a solid theory which i put on this thread, page 2. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/632815.page By no means definitive, but it fits into my personal fan-hammer.
As for the Solitaire he fits right in with my null-deployment Dark Eldar list. Nothing on the board at the start of the game, everything should be on by turn 2. And with the Solitaire being so dam fast, he should be able to be a threat to a lot of the board due to Blitz so he can make his charge along with the rest of my scary stuff ala Dark Artisan's and Grotesques. He is also rather sexy, and i REALLY loved Motley. So for me it's a no-brainer. The Harlequins themselves? That will depend on that fancy new transport of theirs, if the Enigma's of the Black Library help them out and how the Shadowseer works.
Hate to break it to you, but this is technically an auto lose. The rules state that if at the end of any game turn (i.e. the end of each yours and the opponent's turn 1) you have no models on the board, you automatically lose. You just need to have at least one model on the board by the end of both player's turn 1,
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Post by: vipoid
DE have a formation that lets them deep strike 2 units of Wracks in Venoms on turn 1. I believe it's key to their null deployment.
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Post by: Ace Rimmer
I did the same math-hammer as Ravenous D the other day leading me to the assumption that the Embrace is far and away the best all-round choice, especially as it's 3pts per model cheaper than the caress.
Assuming my maths was correct it's only against 2+ armour that it favours the Caress and that is negated to level by the 5++ if we're talking TEQ.
Embraces: Would do around 5.1 wounds vs 2+
Caresses: 6 autodead (4 with 5++), 2 more dead (1.2ish with 5++). Totalling 8 Wounds if no inv or around 5.2 with 5++.
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Post by: Ravenous D
It depends on what you're facing, caresses are the all around best against all targets (Heavy infantry, MCs and Any tank) where as embraces are great against medium and light infantry, MCs and tanks. 20 auto S6 hits on average is pretty huge.
The only thing I can see the use of kisses is on MCs and characters but the points investment just isn't worth it.
And all of this is dependent on their delivery method, because assault is god damn terrible for anything without a 12" move.
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Post by: morgoth
They'll be delivered on pseudo-Venoms, likely very fragile with a harlequin specific damage mitigator (not night shields or holo field I would think), but an assault transport fast skimmer nonetheless.
But since it should be able to transport a full Troupe, I guess it'll be slightly bigger than the Venom.
My big question right now is: how do they compare against the strong CC units like Wraiths or TWC ?
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Post by: vipoid
One thing I feel I should bring up regarding the Embrace/Caress comparisons is that the Embrace is HoW hits - so in order to get all of them you have to get every harlequin in BTB with the enemy.
When comparing the two, I just feel you should be careful about the assumption that 10 models will all get into BTB with their target. As, to me, this seems very optimistic if you're not fighting infantry-guard or an ork horde.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Happyjew wrote: wuestenfux wrote:Niiru wrote:Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?
I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p
For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?
I guess that I missed something.
The rules for the Solitaire are out?
I know this guy very well from the Gav Thorpe codex.
He has been a one man wrecking machine with 13 attacks on the charge.
The rules are available for Troupes and Solitaries in WD53. However, it does not have the datasheet for the transport option, nor the special relics that the Solitaire/Troupe Master can take.
Thanks. Good to know.
I'll pick mine up next Saturday.
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Post by: BlackTalos
Maybe just me having a moment, but what does:
-May take one item from the Enigmas of the Black Library list.
Refer to?
page 27 of the WD? Or an items list not yet released? (WD54?)
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Post by: Xenomancers
Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.
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Post by: Ace Rimmer
 vipoid wrote:One thing I feel I should bring up regarding the Embrace/Caress comparisons is that the Embrace is HoW hits - so in order to get all of them you have to get every harlequin in BTB with the enemy.
When comparing the two, I just feel you should be careful about the assumption that 10 models will all get into BTB with their target. As, to me, this seems very optimistic if you're not fighting infantry-guard or an ork horde.
Indeed, but if the rumoured transport is the open-topped fast skimmer we are expecting, then getting the harlequins into base contact with the a unit of say 5 models or a tank shouldn't actually be particularly difficult.
The real issue is making sure you have something to assault first and draw the overwatch fire because that will hurt them.
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Post by: Mr Morden
 Xenomancers wrote:Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.
Of fix the broken stuff in the game that makes them look so bad maybe?
I have 4 1/2 Marine armies - we simply don't need this ongoing multi Codex bloat with various ever so slightly different Chapters being given "new" stuff to try and make them actually different.
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Post by: Massaen
 Ravenous D wrote:Well lets run some math for a guide.
a 10 man unit of Harlies is 225 to 255 with either all kisses, embraces, or all caresses, and haywire grenades on the squad leader.
If you manage to get them unscathed into combat, and that's a big if, you'll do the following:
Against 10 marines:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 6 dead at I10, followed by 41 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds, 4 more dead at I6. All dead with no swings back.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 2 dead followed by 31 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 more dead. Half as good as embraces. Marines swing back and probably kill 2.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 11 wounds, 3 more dead. Still not as good as the embraces. But better against medium and heavy tanks.
Against say 20 guardsmen:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 11 dead, followed by 41 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 12 more dead.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 1 kiss wound, 5 other wounds, 5 dead. 31 other attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 10 dead.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 15 wounds, 10 more dead.
Against tanks (I wont bother with kisses as they clearly wont be as good as others). Assume 1 HP gone from the Haywire grenade too. Anything with av 10 back armour will suffer 4 glances on average for a total of 5Hps before adding the specials
Embraces (remember hammer of wrath hits the side you are assaulting) :
Av10: 20 hits, 6 pens 4 glances
Av11: 20 hits, 3 pens, 3 glances
Av12: 20 hits, 3 glances
Av13 and 14: N/A
Caresses: All Av types: 41 attacks, 6 glances.
I might be misreading this but I think you have messed up the numbers for the "kiss" attacks. 10 attacks, 7 hits and then S6 and ap2 means way more than 2 dead marines...
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Post by: Xenomancers
 Mr Morden wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.
Of fix the broken stuff in the game that makes them look so bad maybe?
I have 4 1/2 Marine armies - we simply don't need this ongoing multi Codex bloat with various ever so slightly different Chapters being given "new" stuff to try and make them actually different.
Cept tactical marines are bad across the board in every chapter. You have 4 marine armies - I have 3 - most have at least 2...make a new box set with better looking tacticals and change their rules up in a data slate to make them competitive and bam...you just made several millions of dollars and made a lot of people happy. Don't know about you but I couldn't care less about harlequins - they are a niche unit - it doesn't make many happy and it doesn't make anyone any money. Basically it's bad for everyone.
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Post by: pm713
Except for people who like Harlequins. Whereas changing tactical marines doesn't really help that many people.
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Post by: morgoth
Xenomancers wrote: Mr Morden wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.
Of fix the broken stuff in the game that makes them look so bad maybe?
I have 4 1/2 Marine armies - we simply don't need this ongoing multi Codex bloat with various ever so slightly different Chapters being given "new" stuff to try and make them actually different.
Cept tactical marines are bad across the board in every chapter. You have 4 marine armies - I have 3 - most have at least 2...make a new box set with better looking tacticals and change their rules up in a data slate to make them competitive and bam...you just made several millions of dollars and made a lot of people happy. Don't know about you but I couldn't care less about harlequins - they are a niche unit - it doesn't make many happy and it doesn't make anyone any money. Basically it's bad for everyone.
Tactical Marines are already good in comparison with many other units.
Harlequins create the stage where Marines play.
If GW were to follow your logic, 40K would only be about Marines, extremely boring, and you'd never get a Xenos to fight because all their codexes and miniatures would be 10 years older.
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Post by: Ravenous D
 Massaen wrote:
I might be misreading this but I think you have messed up the numbers for the "kiss" attacks. 10 attacks, 7 hits and then S6 and ap2 means way more than 2 dead marines...
Ah, I misread the rule, I thought it was only ap2 on the 6. So it would be 7 hits, 6 dead.
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Post by: Solis Luna Astrum
 God In Action wrote: ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Yes and no. I think i have a solid theory which i put on this thread, page 2. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/632815.page By no means definitive, but it fits into my personal fan-hammer.
As for the Solitaire he fits right in with my null-deployment Dark Eldar list. Nothing on the board at the start of the game, everything should be on by turn 2. And with the Solitaire being so dam fast, he should be able to be a threat to a lot of the board due to Blitz so he can make his charge along with the rest of my scary stuff ala Dark Artisan's and Grotesques. He is also rather sexy, and i REALLY loved Motley. So for me it's a no-brainer. The Harlequins themselves? That will depend on that fancy new transport of theirs, if the Enigma's of the Black Library help them out and how the Shadowseer works.
Hate to break it to you, but this is technically an auto lose. The rules state that if at the end of any game turn (i.e. the end of each yours and the opponent's turn 1) you have no models on the board, you automatically lose. You just need to have at least one model on the board by the end of both player's turn 1,
You might want to re-read that. Nothing he wrote says he will have no models on the board at the end of turn 1. He only says he will start the game with no models on the board and all models will be on by turn 2. That rather implies he will have units deploying during the first turn.
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Post by: Massaen
Ravenous D wrote: Massaen wrote:
I might be misreading this but I think you have messed up the numbers for the "kiss" attacks. 10 attacks, 7 hits and then S6 and ap2 means way more than 2 dead marines...
Ah, I misread the rule, I thought it was only ap2 on the 6. So it would be 7 hits, 6 dead.
It also effects the other calculations and with S6 is a credible threat to light and medium AV as well
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Post by: Xenomancers
pm713 wrote:Except for people who like Harlequins. Whereas changing tactical marines doesn't really help that many people.
Sorry to break it to you....but the ratio of people who want tactical marine updates compared to harlequin updates is probably close to 1000:1.
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Post by: Bharring
Sorry to break it to you, but wouldn't Harlies be part of fixing Tacs? When I want to kill Harlies, Boltguns are the first thing that comes to mind.
More Harlie-like things and fewer IK stupidity would go a long way towards fixing Tacs...
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Post by: Rune Stonegrinder
 BlackTalos wrote:Maybe just me having a moment, but what does:
-May take one item from the Enigmas of the Black Library list.
Refer to?
page 27 of the WD? Or an items list not yet released? (WD54?)
Those are going to be artifacts or some type of special ability, no one currently knows what they will be. These in my opinion will dictate if Harli's will be playable.
we still do not know if we'll see:
High Warlock? was in the original
are Shadowseers still in?
psychic powers for them?
no mention of Death Jester (I assume he is in)
Harli wraithlord will he be a true harli? or just ally one to count as?
I also assume jetbikes are in as sky weavers, maybe?
Neural Shredder? I saw this in a rumor as a pistol
one or two more weeks we'll find out alot of this
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Post by: Doomaflatchi
 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:we still do not know if we'll see:
High Warlock? was in the original
are Shadowseers still in?
psychic powers for them?
no mention of Death Jester (I assume he is in)
Harli wraithlord will he be a true harli? or just ally one to count as?
I also assume jetbikes are in as sky weavers, maybe?
Neural Shredder? I saw this in a rumor as a pistol
one or two more weeks we'll find out alot of this
For what it's worth right now:
I think the Neural Shredder pistol you're referring to is the Neural Disruptor in this week's release, no? 12" S1 AP2 Pistol Fleshbane
Current word is that Shadowseers and Death Jesters will be in, but will be in the last week of release since they already have models
Multiple sources also list Jetbikes and High Warlock as coming
You are correct, we'll know more about their viability once all the rules are in. I just wanted to make sure all the info here was as current as possible. 
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Post by: Asmodas
Xenomancers wrote:pm713 wrote:Except for people who like Harlequins. Whereas changing tactical marines doesn't really help that many people.
Sorry to break it to you....but the ratio of people who want tactical marine updates compared to harlequin updates is probably close to 1000:1.
Did we just go over a bridge or something?
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Post by: Xenomancers
Bharring wrote:Sorry to break it to you, but wouldn't Harlies be part of fixing Tacs? When I want to kill Harlies, Boltguns are the first thing that comes to mind.
More Harlie-like things and fewer IK stupidity would go a long way towards fixing Tacs...
really? You'd take a squad of marines vs harlequins? even before their rework they were essentially designed to tear marines apart - without taking a loss.
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Post by: Bharring
Umm... Try shooting them? Like, with guns?
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 8/27ths. At 24", that's 3 dead Harlies. Rapid fire is 6 dead harlies.
That's no Special and no Heavy. Just imagine the sweet sweet smell of burning space elf clown meat if they ever dance near a flamer! Although they do taste funny.
Then, in melee, Harlies do have an advantage. But they cost a boatload more than a Marine.
So, basically, if your Marines sit around twiddling their thumbs while Harlies get close, then charge, Marines will lose to the more expensive CC-dedicated unit. But if Marines get off a rapid fire volley, Marines will win on a per-model basis despite being absurdly cheaper.
In other words, if Harlies are hard-countering your Tacs, you're doing it very wrong.
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Post by: morgoth
I don't think anyone can successfully argue that Tactical Marines are bad.
They may not be good enough for the tournament scene, but at 14 points, 3+ Save 4/4/4/4 ATSKNF Krak Grenade + options including access to Drop Pods they'll never be "bad".
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Post by: Niiru
Yeh, tac marines are among the best basic troops, and with drop pods being broken good and cheap, space marine players really don't have much to complain about. But then they never did, doesn't stop them though.
Not really the topic for this thread though, so stop it please unless you can make it relevant thanks
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Post by: EVIL INC
I see I'm not the only one missing the death jester
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Post by: Niiru
I'm really interested in what his rules will be, but I also can't wait for the other harlequin units/transports to come out. Exciting times.
I do wonder if they are keeping the same jester model, as they have taken the jester and shadowseer models off the website now. Maybe being re-released in plastic, which would be nice.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
Xenomancers wrote:Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.
This is why we can't have good things: Imperial players complaining.
Maybe one day we'll get a Forgeworld 50k ruleset. No humans, only Xenos dancing in the fiery ruins of Terra
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Post by: Niiru
 Charles Rampant wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.
This is why we can't have good things: Imperial players complaining.
Maybe one day we'll get a Forgeworld 50k ruleset. No humans, only Xenos dancing in the fiery ruins of Terra
Lol yeh, damn imperials.
I mean they get to use any units from imperial guard, SOB, inquisition, imperial knights, and any of the space marine codices, without any downsides at all, as well as being able to use each others transports and independant characters freely....
Whereas orks can do exactly none of this, everything is "one eye open" and no transport or IC sharing and are a weaker codex in the first place.
Tac marines have nothing to complain about. They are safe in a big imperial bubble.
While I'm happy so far with the harlequin releases (and am looking forward to the rest of it) this has made me think that I would really like something similar to happen for orks. Maybe make the dread mob stuff official and release some more stuff for them. Just to bring them up to speed.
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Post by: Asmodas
Niiru wrote: Charles Rampant wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.
This is why we can't have good things: Imperial players complaining.
Maybe one day we'll get a Forgeworld 50k ruleset. No humans, only Xenos dancing in the fiery ruins of Terra
Lol yeh, damn imperials.
I mean they get to use any units from imperial guard, SOB, inquisition, imperial knights, and any of the space marine codices, without any downsides at all, as well as being able to use each others transports and independant characters freely....
Whereas orks can do exactly none of this, everything is "one eye open" and no transport or IC sharing and are a weaker codex in the first place.
Tac marines have nothing to complain about. They are safe in a big imperial bubble.
While I'm happy so far with the harlequin releases (and am looking forward to the rest of it) this has made me think that I would really like something similar to happen for orks. Maybe make the dread mob stuff official and release some more stuff for them. Just to bring them up to speed.
Bring back the Boar Boys!
Seriously, though, the new Death Jester has been spotted. Check the rumor page re same. Also, the new WD cover has the Harlie Jetbikes on it. They look awesome!
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Post by: Niiru
Boar boyz and old zogwort, good times
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Post by: Doomaflatchi
 Asmodas wrote:Seriously, though, the new Death Jester has been spotted. Check the rumor page re same. Also, the new WD cover has the Harlie Jetbikes on it. They look awesome!
Ooooh, two-man Jetbikes!  I'm seriously excited about the prospects of a heavier unit with Eldar Jetbike powers.
I can't help but wonder, though, if the old cowls will fit on these new bikes... they were so amazing looking!
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Post by: Niiru
Doomaflatchi wrote: Asmodas wrote:Seriously, though, the new Death Jester has been spotted. Check the rumor page re same. Also, the new WD cover has the Harlie Jetbikes on it. They look awesome!
Ooooh, two-man Jetbikes! I'm seriously excited about the prospects of a heavier unit with Eldar Jetbike powers.
I can't help but wonder, though, if the old cowls will fit on these new bikes... they were so amazing looking!
I hadn't actually seen this picture... they look cool!
Problem is, eldar jetbikes themselves tend to be good cos they are priced low enough to take multiple units and dish out fast firepower, with jetbike movement. All good.
These... I suspect will be priced higher, and so will have to be powerful enough to make up for that. Extra wounds, extra damage...
Though if they end up being terminator prices, but with jetbike movement... that could be crazy good.
Ooh fun times.
I'm going to hold off on pre-ordering any harlequin troops until all the new figures/dataslate has been released, as I dont want to end up having things I dont use...
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Post by: Happyjew
Probable Statline for bikes:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 4 3 4 1 6 2 9 3+/5++
Alternatively, if it is 2 models per bike, expect Wounds and Attacks to double.
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Post by: RaptorHunter
I just got the WD and I can say I really really like the Harlequins. The customization is great and the Solitaire looks so much fun to paint and use. It makes me really want to start collection Dark Eldar and be that weird guy. Can't wait to see what is in the next WD.
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Post by: Accolade
I just want to start seeing Unbound armies with Harlequins riding in Land Raiders again.
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Post by: Niiru
 Accolade wrote:I just want to start seeing Unbound armies with Harlequins riding in Land Raiders again.
Unfortunately can't be done, even in unbound.
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Post by: Accolade
Niiru wrote: Accolade wrote:I just want to start seeing Unbound armies with Harlequins riding in Land Raiders again.
Unfortunately can't be done, even in unbound.
 Alas. Well, seeing as the current army formation system is so open to abuse now, I don't think I'd be all that offended playing a Super-Unbound list if it duplicated the old 1st edition stuff.
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Post by: Niiru
Accolade wrote:Niiru wrote: Accolade wrote:I just want to start seeing Unbound armies with Harlequins riding in Land Raiders again.
Unfortunately can't be done, even in unbound.
Alas. Well, seeing as the current army formation system is so open to abuse now, I don't think I'd be all that offended playing a Super-Unbound list if it duplicated the old 1st edition stuff.
Well in a friendly game, anything is ok with opponents consent. Make it fluffy and look cool and I'm sure it'll be ok haha.
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Post by: Vaktathi
I'm curious to see how they're going to function, unless shadowseers or some sort of formations basically makes them immune to being shot at.
The Solitaire looks kinda scary for a second, but he's probably going to get killed before he can get into anything, though the idea of a potential turn-7 move+charge distance of 60" with 12 attacks is hilarious.
Overall, I'm guessing this will be another "Militarum Tempestus" style release, where an Elites unit gets made into its own army but won't actually work as anything but an Allied detachment.
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Post by: Niiru
 Vaktathi wrote:I'm curious to see how they're going to function, unless shadowseers or some sort of formations basically makes them immune to being shot at.
The Solitaire looks kinda scary for a second, but he's probably going to get killed before he can get into anything, though the idea of a potential turn-7 move+charge distance of 60" with 12 attacks is hilarious.
Overall, I'm guessing this will be another "Militarum Tempestus" style release, where an Elites unit gets made into its own army but won't actually work as anything but an Allied detachment.
The solitaire to me seems like an assassin. Can be killed but is a scary unit if it does its job.
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Post by: BlackTalos
BlackTalos wrote:Maybe just me having a moment, but what does:
-May take one item from the Enigmas of the Black Library list.
Refer to?
page 27 of the WD? Or an items list not yet released? (WD54?)
Last posts on pages always get missed -_-
Anyone?
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Post by: Makumba
Wouldn't it be scary if they had something like +3 cover or permanent invisibility in relic form. I wonder what their two seat jetbikes do.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
BlackTalos wrote: BlackTalos wrote:Maybe just me having a moment, but what does:
-May take one item from the Enigmas of the Black Library list.
Refer to?
page 27 of the WD? Or an items list not yet released? (WD54?)
Last posts on pages always get missed -_-
Anyone?
An as-yet unseen Relics list, presumably.
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Post by: Asmodas
Makumba wrote:Wouldn't it be scary if they had something like +3 cover or permanent invisibility in relic form. I wonder what their two seat jetbikes do.
The Mantle of the Laughing God is pretty much a no-brainer for a relic. It'd be perfect for the Solitaire, too, as he's the ultimate servant of the Laughing God.
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Post by: Ace Rimmer
I think it will be more a case of relying on transports to get them into action. Why would GW make a rule that gets them there when they can sell several kits and make money at it too? 
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Post by: Bharring
I always thought Mantle was there to allow players to field a Solitaire, which now has a model... Enigmas wouldn't need it.
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Post by: Doomaflatchi
Rules on the Skyweaver Jetbikes just went up! Quoted from the source:
WS5 BS4 T4 W2 I6 Sv4+
100pts gets you 2 skyweavers and you may take up to 4 more.
any model can replace the star bolas-12"S6 AP2 blast 1/use only but in addition to bikes guns, with a zephyrglaive-S+1/User AP2/3 Melee. first numbers are for the round they charge
any jetbike can replace the shuriken cannon with a Haywire Cannon 24"S4 AP4 blast haywire
Wargear, each one comes with a Holo-suit, star bolas, mirage launchers-1/game 4++vs shooting, and a skyweaver jetbike
fear, furious charge, and hit and run are the special rules.
(Note: remember that Furious Charge makes those Zephyrglaives hit as a total of S5 on the charge)
Looks promising, but, yeesh, that price... for the cost of three of these, I could get six Reavers with Cluster Caltrops and Blasters, which is the same number of wounds. Based on that comparison, I'm expecting the key role of the Skyweavers to be as a fast, mobile platform for their Shuriken/Haywire Cannons. Basically seems like a Wound-based alternative to the Vyper, though I'm not really sure who comes out ahead on that one.
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Post by: Niiru
Hmm not too sure about those rules... seems way too expensive? Can be instant deathed, no decent armour save, so those 2 wounds dont seem worthwhile
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Post by: Bharring
50 ppm? Seems like an improved Vyper, but not by much...
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Post by: Doomaflatchi
Niiru wrote:Hmm not too sure about those rules... seems way too expensive? Can be instant deathed, no decent armour save, so those 2 wounds dont seem worthwhile
Kinda my initial thoughts, too. :/ Though we have no idea how many attacks they get with two models on the bike - could be the Jetbike standard 2 (which would be terrible), the more likely 3 (which would be okay), or, unlikely, 4 (which would be amazing in cc). I just really really hope they have either Flip Belts or grenades, or else they'll end up being the Incubi of this Codex.
EDIT: Confirmed, 3 attacks but no Grenades or Flip Belts.  These are going to be dedicated ranged units, with Hit & Run just to get them out of trouble if they get assaulted. Still, incredibly mobile Shuriken Cannons on a decently durable platform could synergize quite nicely with our assault-oriented murder clowns...
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Post by: Ace Rimmer
Haywire Cannons to peel open the transports, spilling the contents out to be assaulted by the troupes.
Star Bolas are basically 1 shot D-Grenades, great potential for killing bunched up Heavy/Medium Infantry.
I see them as a potential anti-alpha strike unit, speeding across to eliminate deep-striking threats in the back-field and grabbing objectives.
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
Does this happen much where a unit exists in two different sources with different profiles/rules? I thought they were a bit different in 5th ed DE and 6th ed Eldar.
I realllllly want them to be awesome, so I can have some CC that isn't Grotesques.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or Wyches (aka "death by a thousand annoying pinches").
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Post by: Niiru
Doomaflatchi wrote:Niiru wrote:Hmm not too sure about those rules... seems way too expensive? Can be instant deathed, no decent armour save, so those 2 wounds dont seem worthwhile
Kinda my initial thoughts, too. :/ Though we have no idea how many attacks they get with two models on the bike - could be the Jetbike standard 2 (which would be terrible), the more likely 3 (which would be okay), or, unlikely, 4 (which would be amazing in cc). I just really really hope they have either Flip Belts or grenades, or else they'll end up being the Incubi of this Codex.
EDIT: Confirmed, 3 attacks but no Grenades or Flip Belts. These are going to be dedicated ranged units, with Hit & Run just to get them out of trouble if they get assaulted. Still, incredibly mobile Shuriken Cannons on a decently durable platform could synergize quite nicely with our assault-oriented murder clowns...
But... dont eldar already have incredibly mobile shuriken cannons for cheaper? As in, nornal jetbikes. And as tbey are cheaper, you can carry more of them, and so the unit is also more durable?
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Post by: Asmodas
Niiru wrote: Doomaflatchi wrote:Niiru wrote:Hmm not too sure about those rules... seems way too expensive? Can be instant deathed, no decent armour save, so those 2 wounds dont seem worthwhile
Kinda my initial thoughts, too. :/ Though we have no idea how many attacks they get with two models on the bike - could be the Jetbike standard 2 (which would be terrible), the more likely 3 (which would be okay), or, unlikely, 4 (which would be amazing in cc). I just really really hope they have either Flip Belts or grenades, or else they'll end up being the Incubi of this Codex.
EDIT: Confirmed, 3 attacks but no Grenades or Flip Belts. These are going to be dedicated ranged units, with Hit & Run just to get them out of trouble if they get assaulted. Still, incredibly mobile Shuriken Cannons on a decently durable platform could synergize quite nicely with our assault-oriented murder clowns...
But... dont eldar already have incredibly mobile shuriken cannons for cheaper? As in, nornal jetbikes. And as tbey are cheaper, you can carry more of them, and so the unit is also more durable?
Well, sort of. A unit of jetbikes is 51 points, so 1 point higher, then a 10 point add on for the cannon. But you get an extra wound and a better save (but no invuln, obv) for those 11 points. The Harlies have better potential in combat due to hit and run and 3 attacks base, but lose out on points-per-wound efficiency. Why not run both, though? They seem to have different roles. Joining a warlock on a bike for conceal also has some promise.
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Post by: morgoth
Asmodas wrote:Niiru wrote: Doomaflatchi wrote:Niiru wrote:Hmm not too sure about those rules... seems way too expensive? Can be instant deathed, no decent armour save, so those 2 wounds dont seem worthwhile
Kinda my initial thoughts, too. :/ Though we have no idea how many attacks they get with two models on the bike - could be the Jetbike standard 2 (which would be terrible), the more likely 3 (which would be okay), or, unlikely, 4 (which would be amazing in cc). I just really really hope they have either Flip Belts or grenades, or else they'll end up being the Incubi of this Codex.
EDIT: Confirmed, 3 attacks but no Grenades or Flip Belts. These are going to be dedicated ranged units, with Hit & Run just to get them out of trouble if they get assaulted. Still, incredibly mobile Shuriken Cannons on a decently durable platform could synergize quite nicely with our assault-oriented murder clowns...
But... dont eldar already have incredibly mobile shuriken cannons for cheaper? As in, nornal jetbikes. And as tbey are cheaper, you can carry more of them, and so the unit is also more durable?
Well, sort of. A unit of jetbikes is 51 points, so 1 point higher, then a 10 point add on for the cannon. But you get an extra wound and a better save (but no invuln, obv) for those 11 points. The Harlies have better potential in combat due to hit and run and 3 attacks base, but lose out on points-per-wound efficiency. Why not run both, though? They seem to have different roles. Joining a warlock on a bike for conceal also has some promise.
I was more thinking of why not run none. Windriders at 51 points have a role, windriders with shuriken cannon don't.
And we'll see if those harlie jetbikes are worth a cent, but they'll need to do a lot more than compare acceptably with windriders as combat troops.
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Post by: Lythrandire Biehrellian
Played a 250 point game with just a 5 man unit of harlis,2 with the kiss, and the solitaire. Fought 7 grey knight termis with one psi cannon. Tabled him top of turn 3, the caress on the solitaire the turn it blitzes is BRUTAL! The harlis hit like a ton of bricks, I believe I still would have won, but he actively tried to get into melee I stead of shooting. Cue maniacal laughter
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Post by: Asmodas
morgoth wrote: Asmodas wrote:Niiru wrote: Doomaflatchi wrote:Niiru wrote:Hmm not too sure about those rules... seems way too expensive? Can be instant deathed, no decent armour save, so those 2 wounds dont seem worthwhile
Kinda my initial thoughts, too. :/ Though we have no idea how many attacks they get with two models on the bike - could be the Jetbike standard 2 (which would be terrible), the more likely 3 (which would be okay), or, unlikely, 4 (which would be amazing in cc). I just really really hope they have either Flip Belts or grenades, or else they'll end up being the Incubi of this Codex.
EDIT: Confirmed, 3 attacks but no Grenades or Flip Belts. These are going to be dedicated ranged units, with Hit & Run just to get them out of trouble if they get assaulted. Still, incredibly mobile Shuriken Cannons on a decently durable platform could synergize quite nicely with our assault-oriented murder clowns...
But... dont eldar already have incredibly mobile shuriken cannons for cheaper? As in, nornal jetbikes. And as tbey are cheaper, you can carry more of them, and so the unit is also more durable?
Well, sort of. A unit of jetbikes is 51 points, so 1 point higher, then a 10 point add on for the cannon. But you get an extra wound and a better save (but no invuln, obv) for those 11 points. The Harlies have better potential in combat due to hit and run and 3 attacks base, but lose out on points-per-wound efficiency. Why not run both, though? They seem to have different roles. Joining a warlock on a bike for conceal also has some promise.
I was more thinking of why not run none. Windriders at 51 points have a role, windriders with shuriken cannon don't.
And we'll see if those harlie jetbikes are worth a cent, but they'll need to do a lot more than compare acceptably with windriders as combat troops.
Yeah, I'm not sold on the bikes yet, although I want to like them. I just realized the Warlock trick doesn't work because they can't join the bikes (they can only join specific units, including jetbikes, guardians, etc.). Oh well. I'm starting to think that the Haywire/Bola option may be the way to go, as it at least gives them a distinct roll - transport popping so the Harlies can charge the contents, plus anti-heavy infantry with the bolas, then use the assault move to get away.
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Post by: morgoth
I'd like to play Harlequins too, they have awesome models.
Not the jetbikes, I don't find them aesthetically acceptable, they remind me too much of the old ugly harlequin jetbikes.
It's going to come down to the Starweaver and the overall competitiveness of the deal.
If it's a beautiful vehicle and/or if they're an acceptable CC option for Eldar, I'd love to have them.
If they're just another overly expensive underperforming option for Eldar to fail in Assault, I'll skip until they become playable.
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Post by: wuestenfux
I remember ten years ago, there was a group of players at EldarOnline discussing issues concerning Eldar, DE, and Harlies.
At that time we would have highly appreciated a Harlie codex.
Rasmus made a very nice Harlie codex but his ideas never got implemented.
I played several games according to the Gav Thorpe experimental codex.
I wonder if Mimes and Wraithlords as in Gav's codex will show up.
SM players here complaining about the Harlie release I would like to suggest playing a Harlie army for test purposes.
They would give them some insight about fielding tactically a fast moving and deadly army.
SM armies on the other hand are often based on Pods and require a much different thinking.
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Post by: Niiru
And now, 1 week on, the skyweaver jetbike rules are officially released. I don't think there was anything in there we didn't already expect from the rumours. Shuriken Cannons all round, 4+/5++ saves, two wounds.
They seem to have some sort of rule that takes the place of jink... but it is worse? Mirage Launchers, once per game you can use them and you get a 4++ for that turn against shooting... but if you jinked it would be a 3++, so I'm not sure why you would use it.
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Post by: scuzz_bucket
the new skyweaver minis are DOPE!!!
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Post by: Mr Morden
Well the mirage launchers do work against ignore cover weapons as they are invulnerable saves against all shooting 
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Niiru wrote:And now, 1 week on, the skyweaver jetbike rules are officially released. I don't think there was anything in there we didn't already expect from the rumours. Shuriken Cannons all round, 4+/5++ saves, two wounds.
They seem to have some sort of rule that takes the place of jink... but it is worse? Mirage Launchers, once per game you can use them and you get a 4++ for that turn against shooting... but if you jinked it would be a 3++, so I'm not sure why you would use it.
They are not skilled Rider, so it's a 4+ Jink. Jink is a cover save, so ignored by some weapons. Jink forces you to snap fire so no blasts or hit on 6's. E.G Mirage Launcher is a good item.
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Post by: Niiru
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Niiru wrote:And now, 1 week on, the skyweaver jetbike rules are officially released. I don't think there was anything in there we didn't already expect from the rumours. Shuriken Cannons all round, 4+/5++ saves, two wounds.
They seem to have some sort of rule that takes the place of jink... but it is worse? Mirage Launchers, once per game you can use them and you get a 4++ for that turn against shooting... but if you jinked it would be a 3++, so I'm not sure why you would use it.
They are not skilled Rider, so it's a 4+ Jink. Jink is a cover save, so ignored by some weapons. Jink forces you to snap fire so no blasts or hit on 6's. E.G Mirage Launcher is a good item.
Ahh of course, kinda obvious when I look at it again, I was just reading it as an alternative jink, but its an invulnerable not a cover. No snap firing is nice too.
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Post by: purplkrush
Pardon my inexperience, quick question.
As Harlies are listed in the Eldar Codex are we supposed to use these new rules for all our Harlies or does this constitute an entirely new army requiring a separate FOC for my Eldar?
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Post by: Mr Morden
 purplkrush wrote: Pardon my inexperience, quick question.
As Harlies are listed in the Eldar Codex are we supposed to use these new rules for all our Harlies or does this constitute an entirely new army requiring a separate FOC for my Eldar?
Until the Eldar Codex is updated I guess we can either use the ones in our Codex or the new ones as allies. Likely it will be the same as Dark Eldar and removed from the Eldar Codex when its fixed - opps I mean redone
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Post by: wuestenfux
purplkrush wrote:Pardon my inexperience, quick question.
As Harlies are listed in the Eldar Codex are we supposed to use these new rules for all our Harlies or does this constitute an entirely new army requiring a separate FOC for my Eldar?
I guess you can do both.
Use Harlies in the Eldar codex or as a separate detachment using their ally rules.
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Post by: Niiru
But you would have to be consistant. You can't run Harlies from the Eldar codex, but include the weaver jetbikes, as the Eldar codex doesn't have them. etc etc
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Post by: purplkrush
So they can't be used as a supplement? I didn't see an HQ for their army.... Also, I picked up last week's WD to get the rules and this week's as well. It seems like they're going to continue to release rules for a new transport vehicle next week. WTH? Are they going to slowly release aN entire codex like this or are they even going to have enough stuff for a complete codex? I don't really keep up on these trends, please forgive my ignorance.
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Post by: Mr Morden
purplkrush wrote:So they can't be used as a supplement? I didn't see an HQ for their army.... Also, I picked up last week's WD to get the rules and this week's as well. It seems like they're going to continue to release rules for a new transport vehicle next week. WTH? Are they going to slowly release aN entire codex like this or are they even going to have enough stuff for a complete codex? I don't really keep up on these trends, please forgive my ignorance.
We don't really know - its likely that they will release a full Codex but they could do it all via White Dwarf - which would not be unprecedented but unsual - even then likely to collect it and sell it again.
Currently we are missing the artefacts and characters like the Death Jester and High Avatar - they could do these in a couple of WD's I guess.................
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Post by: Talys
morgoth wrote:I don't think anyone can successfully argue that Tactical Marines are bad. They may not be good enough for the tournament scene, but at 14 points, 3+ Save 4/4/4/4 ATSKNF Krak Grenade + options including access to Drop Pods they'll never be "bad".
Thank you. I have no idea why people equate "Not the best troop choice in the game" with "bad". Just because A can always beat B if they are standing 6 inches from each other, doesn't automatically make B "bad". It just makes it A better, when they are standing 6 inches from each other. Also, it's important to compare the entire faction and available formations before saying one faction is clearly superior to another. Harlequins may be very nice when all is said and done, but using them as an ally, if you're only allowed 1 ally (eg tournament rule) may make them an inferior choice to Space Marines which have access to every tool in the shed. Finally, I think an argument of buff space marines to make a many more people happy than Harlequins is silly. By that extension, since almost everyone who plays 40k at some point has had a SM army, they should just always buff SM units. Why bother ever working on Chaos, Necron, Tyranid, Orks, Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar? There are more SM collectors/players than any one of those. In any case, back to Harlequin Discussion. I picked up the box on hold for me today; here's a high rez picture of the sprues. If you click on the picture, you can zoom in to a very high level of detail. Notice: 25mm bases!! 
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