This is simple, just pick your favorite LOYALIST First Founding Chapter and explain your reasoning. Personally, I'd go for Blood Angels, because they're Primarch is just utter amaze-sauce. And if the Ultrasmurfs win, I shall be shocked.

I added Alpha Legion because it is debatable whether or not they are Loyalists, and I have met many who believe that they are.

You are missing quite a few First Founding Legions up there. I don't see any of the ones who turned traitor except the Alpha Legion.

My choice would be for the Emperor's Children. Before they all started touching themselves inappropriately, I mean. They were pretty darn hard-core when they only had a couple hundred guys they could field. Purple and gold is a pimp color scheme, and their Primarch had the best hair out of all 20 of his brothers. Plus, they exterminated an alien race that was so advanced, the Imperium was considering letting them live because wiping them out would be too difficult and costly... and they (the EC) only lost 700 guys in the whole campaign.

Dark Angels because what they were on doing on Caliban was basically Dark Souls... in SPAAAAACE! Their introspective and brooding nature also appeals to me.

I like how they put their own set of rules and traditions first while pretending to conform on the surface. They've also mostly kept their cohesion as a legion.

All Unforgiven first companies fight exclusively in terminator armour.

Plus they tend to wear hooded robes over their power armour.

They also float around space in a massive planet-turned spacecraft fortress monastery. They literally took their planet with them because they couldn't let go of the past. And then there's the Watchers in the Dark, which add an element of mystery. What's not to like?

And secretssss

which leads to my second choice, the Alpha Legion. I'll not go into them too much but they're pretty badass. I like how they can function as individual cells while still maintaining a galaxy-wide network. And the whole Alpharius-Omegon and we are all Alpharius thing.

Kinda dissapointed you didn't include traitor legions, otherwise my vote would fall on either Thousand sons cause psykers, or Iron Warriors due to their gritty trench warfare ideals, and both because they kinda got screwed for no good reason in the end

Regardless, Vulkan was a pretty nice guy and so is his legion/chapter, so Salamanders it is

I really like the Ultramarines. I've never understood the smurf-hate. I've never had a good reason for disliking them explained to me.

Why I do like them:
- Classical neo-Roman styling, which I like.
- Color scheme (though I could have done without the 'ultramarine' pun)
- No discernible gene seed corruption.
- Less obsessive-compulsive than Pain Gloves and Cybernetics and Unforgiven and Red Thirst/Black Rage.
- Robute wrote the Codex Astartes. It fixed the issues that led to the Horus Heresy by dispersing power and forcing different forces to work together. After 10,000 years the Codex is still the premier guide to Imperial tactics, techniques and procedures. The main gripe about the Codex Astartes - that people follow it blindly - is kinda like complaining because people worship the atheist Emperor as a God. The fault is not in our Emperor, or in our Codex, but in ourselves.
- Not focused blindly on combat, but excel in administration and rulership. Their rule over the 'Realm of Ultramar' is enlightened and prosperous.

There are other Chapters I like as well, for different reasons. I like the Dark Angels 'sinister monk' vibe. I like the Salamanders living and working among their fully human Promethean brethren. I like the Blood Angels aesthetic vibe, which counterbalances to the whole Thirst/Rage thing. Heck, I like something about just about every First Founding Chapter.

I even like the culture of the Space Wolves, whom I generally dislike. The reasons for my dislike of the Space Wolves could fill a post, but I do like the roaring camaraderie of their heroic neo-Norse culture.

And I agree with Flame-Rage, I'd probably vote for the Thousand Sons if all the Traitors were included. But they weren't.

My two teef.

If I had to choose, I'd take the Ultramarines.

No hoodie bathrobes getting in the way.
No Furries with Wolfy Wolf Wolf Wolf and Wolf Cavalry and Wolf Chariots Because We're Vikings in Space, Get it? Get it? And Freeze Rayz because it makes sense that we live on an ice planet so we developed a weapon that makes stuff even colder.
No Space Vampires and temper tantrums.
No bionics fetish (flesh is weak? Have you seen Imperial mechanics?)
No Edgar Allen Poe references.

Just no-nonsense Big Guys in Big Armor with Big Guns in Space. They wrote the Big Book of Space-Marining.

Second might have been the White Scars before the Horus Heresy series went full Genghis Khan on them.

I voted Iron Hands, but Clan Raukaan really butchered them bad lore-wise.

My secondary would probably be Dark Angels or Salamanders.

Salamanders cause of the caring and just how awesome they are. Or the wolves for the general f you attitude

Dark Angels. They have enough of the knight theme like the Black Templars to be a fun medieval space fantasy, but they don't focus so much on melee it gets ridiculous. Plus their characters are good, the plot of their story is a fun read, and the robes look cool.

And they also have the most badass looking gear. They look like Polish Hussars instead of boring Roman Legionnaires or Werewolf Vikings.

Salamanders.

Green is the best color. They're in general good guys.

FIRE!!!

I like the Blood Angels because they've got Vampire Jesus as a primarch, and if you don't think that's the tightest gak then get the feth up out of my face

No special snowflake bs, no edgy secrets, doesnt' smell like wet carpet. Gotta be the Ultramarines.

squidhills wrote:You are missing quite a few First Founding Legions up there. I don't see any of the ones who turned traitor except the Alpha Legion.

My choice would be for the Emperor's Children. Before they all started touching themselves inappropriately, I mean. They were pretty darn hard-core when they only had a couple hundred guys they could field. Purple and gold is a pimp color scheme, and their Primarch had the best hair out of all 20 of his brothers. Plus, they exterminated an alien race that was so advanced, the Imperium was considering letting them live because wiping them out would be too difficult and costly... and they (the EC) only lost 700 guys in the whole campaign.

dusara217 wrote:This is simple, just pick your favorite Loyalist First Founding Chapter...

Anyway, Ultramarines or Raven Guard. I prefer the UM before the heresy though.

Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do, essentially have no wrong or faults and any engagements they participate are not an auto win for the chapter (here is looking at you Ultra-smurfs <3).
-In a grim dark galaxy that each faction constantly tries to struggle for survival the Space Wolves home world mimics this perfectly in even the humans that live here are the best of the best.
-While space vampires are cool and the constant threat of giving into blood is ever present, I prefer Space Wolves both chapters are awesome I prefer blue to red.
-Imperial fist are pretty solid i love siege warfare and heavy fortifications.
-They are like furries in space that don't get heretic thrown at them for it.
-When a entire planet throws itself in the meat grinder of chaos in order to help the space wolves (Armageddon). they actually helped the humans and raised war with the inquisition (like space marines should)
-Their Primarch out drank and out ate the EMPEROR OF MANKIND, you know that you are destined for greatness when you can beat the emperor at...well anything.
-Best of all they aren't Ultramarines

Raven Guard because:
1. They are the most reasonable legion
2. Paint scheme is cool (who does't love black)
3. They hate tyrants and slavers
4. After the Dropsite Massacre, the Raven Guard were the only ones who seriously managed to get back into the fight.
5. Shrike is awesome, he doesn't care about what would strategically be better. He only cares about helping those in need.

Sabor wrote:
Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do, essentially have no wrong or faults and any engagements they participate are not an auto win for the chapter (here is looking at you Ultra-smurfs <3).
-In a grim dark galaxy that each faction constantly tries to struggle for survival the Space Wolves home world mimics this perfectly in even the humans that live here are the best of the best.
-While space vampires are cool and the constant threat of giving into blood is ever present, I prefer Space Wolves both chapters are awesome I prefer blue to red.
-Imperial fist are pretty solid i love siege warfare and heavy fortifications.
-They are like furries in space that don't get heretic thrown at them for it.
-When a entire planet throws itself in the meat grinder of chaos in order to help the space wolves (Armageddon). they actually helped the humans and raised war with the inquisition (like space marines should)
-Their Primarch out drank and out ate the EMPEROR OF MANKIND, you know that you are destined for greatness when you can beat the emperor at...well anything.
-Best of all they aren't Ultramarines

Have you ever read a SW novel? Any SW novel refutes point 1

And the Lion knocked Russ out with one hit.

MarsNZ wrote:

Sabor wrote:
Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do, essentially have no wrong or faults and any engagements they participate are not an auto win for the chapter (here is looking at you Ultra-smurfs <3).
-In a grim dark galaxy that each faction constantly tries to struggle for survival the Space Wolves home world mimics this perfectly in even the humans that live here are the best of the best.
-While space vampires are cool and the constant threat of giving into blood is ever present, I prefer Space Wolves both chapters are awesome I prefer blue to red.
-Imperial fist are pretty solid i love siege warfare and heavy fortifications.
-They are like furries in space that don't get heretic thrown at them for it.
-When a entire planet throws itself in the meat grinder of chaos in order to help the space wolves (Armageddon). they actually helped the humans and raised war with the inquisition (like space marines should)
-Their Primarch out drank and out ate the EMPEROR OF MANKIND, you know that you are destined for greatness when you can beat the emperor at...well anything.
-Best of all they aren't Ultramarines

Have you ever read a SW novel? Any SW novel refutes point 1

And the Lion knocked Russ out with one hit.

Honestly space wolves are almost the mirror oppistes of the Ultramarines. the Ultramarines are awesome because they're as space mariney as space marines can be. space wolves are awesome because they're special and differnt from everyone else. Honestly I'd LOVE to read a novel where the two chapters have to work together, the culture clash would make for some really fun reading. that said, my fav is proably the ultramarines. I find something likeable about the by the book guys. maybe it's just my contrary nature rejecting the people who like the rebels.

I voted Scars after reading the novel by the same name - such an interesting contrast to the other Legions

Great book by the way.

MarsNZ wrote:
No special snowflake bs, no edgy secrets, doesnt' smell like wet carpet. Gotta be the Ultramarines.

Are you kidding me? the Smurfs have special snowflake written all over them, they're even the second most powerful Chapter in the Imperium!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarsNZ wrote:

Sabor wrote:
Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do, essentially have no wrong or faults and any engagements they participate are not an auto win for the chapter (here is looking at you Ultra-smurfs <3).
-In a grim dark galaxy that each faction constantly tries to struggle for survival the Space Wolves home world mimics this perfectly in even the humans that live here are the best of the best.
-While space vampires are cool and the constant threat of giving into blood is ever present, I prefer Space Wolves both chapters are awesome I prefer blue to red.
-Imperial fist are pretty solid i love siege warfare and heavy fortifications.
-They are like furries in space that don't get heretic thrown at them for it.
-When a entire planet throws itself in the meat grinder of chaos in order to help the space wolves (Armageddon). they actually helped the humans and raised war with the inquisition (like space marines should)
-Their Primarch out drank and out ate the EMPEROR OF MANKIND, you know that you are destined for greatness when you can beat the emperor at...well anything.
-Best of all they aren't Ultramarines

Have you ever read a SW novel? Any SW novel refutes point 1

And the Lion knocked Russ out with one hit.

There's a nerve right behind the jaw that will knock out literally ANYONE if hit with more than two pounds of force. You could have had an ordinary human being hit a Primarch on that nerve, and he would have gone down. It's a large part of the reason that boxers and kickboxers keep their chins tucked and one hand up by their jaw - if that nerve gets hit, the fight is lost, and they know it.

Salamanders.

Vulkan didn't exhibit a lot of the psychotic high-school behavior that afflicted other primarchs, and the chapter has carried on with that attitude. They approach the "reasonable marines" ideal, while maintaining a certain level of quirkiness (i.e., the preoccupation with burning things, and the Promethean cult). Some of the other founding chapters are really flanderized, falling into "mongolian bikers" or "bionic commandos with tanks" categories... I think the Salamander's fluff is a cut above the rest.

The Ultramarines hate is a little misplaced. Some of their characters get a little mary-sue-ish (Calagar and Tigurius, who are just the bestest, smartest, most awesomest), but some of them are cool (Telion, Cassius, and a lot of the forgeworld characters). The Ultramarines as a chapter don't just swoop in and win flawless victories either - e.g., getting munched on by hive fleet behemoth, getting tied up by Lorgar and failing to assist at the battle of terra, etc.

WORLD EATERS (Especially pre-Heresy)

What? No traitor legions? Lame.
Ah well, in that case, the Salamanders.

Space Wolfs because they where my first real 40k army, and that I love the art style of the older books, and a bit of the new one as well. Also I do enjoy their attitudes towards the Inqusition and their lap dogs

Easy one. Imperial Fists for me. Space Wolves at a close second.

Thousand Sons of course! We're the good guys...

MarsNZ wrote:


Have you ever read a SW novel? Any SW novel refutes point 1

And the Lion knocked Russ out with one hit.

They have lost multiple engagements, including one that was started with the imperium of man itself...thus point 1 is still valid and strong. The space wolves will lose on occasions, where as ultramarines, they have only ever lost a handful of engagements ever and even when they lose those small engagements they are retconned or made seem small for the much larger war which they crush the enemy. (I.e. hive fleet behemoth, Damnos, the ironblood campaign etc...)

Ultramarines
Imperial Fists
Dark Angels

In that order.

The rest are stagnant.

Vampire Knights are slowly dying, Viking werewolves can barely keep their numbers up, dropsite legions never recovered in 10,000 years.

White Scars I know next to nothing about, there should be a lot of successor chapters for them and more chapter specific units and characters for them. They're the forgotten chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Alphas, traitors, the whole bunch of 'em. Even if "loyalists", at best some of them are renegades, the rest out and out traitors and didn't most go to the Eye? So they'd be well and truly corrupted now.

DA and Space Wolves in the lead? Looks like we're going to have to have a duel over this.

Sabor wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:


Have you ever read a SW novel? Any SW novel refutes point 1

And the Lion knocked Russ out with one hit.

They have lost multiple engagements, including one that was started with the imperium of man itself...thus point 1 is still valid and strong. The space wolves will lose on occasions, where as ultramarines, they have only ever lost a handful of engagements ever and even when they lose those small engagements they are retconned or made seem small for the much larger war which they crush the enemy. (I.e. hive fleet behemoth, Damnos, the ironblood campaign etc...)

I'd argue that surviving a fight with the entire IoM puts them as firmly in the Mary sue camp as any other SM chapter

UM- Love them (bar the Ward OTT-ish stuff!)
Seriously, one of the only factions in the setting that actually does direct good for the Imperium, and has plenty of good plots I could expand on: Sicarius' arrogance? Threat of the Tau but grudging acceptance of their race? Codex ill-equipped to cope with Nids? Divisions as to how to interpret the Codex?
They are, for their size, one of the most interesting and curious Chapters of Space Marines, and the Greco-Roman theme is sweet!
SW- Nope. I'm sorry, but I can't love the Wolves. They just seem too SM+1, as if a newbie 12-year-old created a homebrew Chapter to defacate on everyone else's faction. Sorry, but that's an opinion!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

SW- Nope. I'm sorry, but I can't love the Wolves. They just seem too SM+1, as if a newbie 12-year-old created a homebrew Chapter to defacate on everyone else's faction. Sorry, but that's an opinion!

I think you just described half the fluff.

Alpha legion because you listed them as loyalist or is that what they want you to think.

Sabor wrote:
Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do,

Wait, wat?

You mean the Space Wolves who get to break every rule of Space Marining so it's cool?

No sex with the wimmenz because a Space Marine recruit has to be less than 10 years old to start the process? Not if you're Space Wolves!
No booze because your body processes the alcohol poisoning so well? Not if you're Space Wolves! We invented super booze!


The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!"

"With a few fringe exceptions .... all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."



Disgusting.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Sabor wrote:
Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do,

Wait, wat?

You mean the Space Wolves who get to break every rule of Space Marining so it's cool?

No sex with the wimmenz because a Space Marine recruit has to be less than 10 years old to start the process? Not if you're Space Wolves!
No booze because your body processes the alcohol poisoning so well? Not if you're Space Wolves! We invented super booze!


The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

Ummm what you said was almost completely backwards....a Mary Sue is defined as such "A Mary Sue is a character that the author identifies with so strongly that the story is warped by it." Last time i recall Space Wolves don't punch out of avatar's of khaine because they are Mary sues, Space wolves don't take on entire tomb worlds and lose no casualties because they are Mary sues, Space wolves don't beat back an entire hive fleet because they are Mary sues. When a story has to completely change direction in order to adhere to the fluff of what the author is imposing it becomes a Mary sue. Space wolves have weaknesses and yes they can have booze, but its not a defining factor in lore.

A character that blatantly goes against the back drop of the story in an all or nothing gambit (I.E. fighting the inquistion to defend its comrades they fought along) they still take high casualties and recognize that the book of the Adeptus Astartes is a method not a defining factor is the opposite of a Mary Sue. Unlike the Ultramarines that almost follow it to the letter, a chapter that is perfect that almost never has any faults or weaknesses is a Mary Sue, but im just saying. :/

As far as superpowers go, having the ability to consume loads of alcohol seems rather low in Marty Sue-ness while getting out-everything in a fight and only surviving because you get angry on the other hand reeks of Sue-ness. Matt Ward is a very cackhanded writer.

The Ultramarines existed long before Matt Ward. although you've pretty much identified the reason for the Utramarine hate Engulfed Object. most of it stems from the fact that the UMs are the posterboys and everyone who likes a differnt chapter is annoyed GW doesn't apparently share their tastes. some people just happen to like the straight arrow, the guy who follows the rules and does thing by the book perfect, as opposed to someone else who uses the book for toilet paper, and acheives results anyway. Honestly if the Ultramarines follow the codex and have more wins to their name.... maybe the codex has I dunno... some value?

BrianDavion wrote:
The Ultramarines existed long before Matt Ward. although you've pretty much identified the reason for the Utramarine hate Engulfed Object. most of it stems from the fact that the UMs are the posterboys and everyone who likes a differnt chapter is annoyed GW doesn't apparently share their tastes. some people just happen to like the straight arrow, the guy who follows the rules and does thing by the book perfect, as opposed to someone else who uses the book for toilet paper, and acheives results anyway. Honestly if the Ultramarines follow the codex and have more wins to their name.... maybe the codex has I dunno... some value?

The Space Marine codex wasn't always focused on the Ultramarines. The 3rd ed has the Crimson Fists on the cover for example and only briefly mentions the Ultramarines from what I remember. I still think they should just give the Ultramarines their own codex and introduce all loyalist First Founding chapters in the SM codex.



Also, if the majority of chapters are Ultramarines descendants and most of them follow the Codex Astartes strictly then what does the codex have to do with the Ultramarines having more wins than them?

And where does it say the Ultramarines have more victories compared to other First Founding chapters such as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels?

Well the Ultramarines had a head-start due to being the legion that conquered the most territory. So in that way they likely have a good lead. And they are a very active chapter even several thousand years after their founding.

Basically Matt Ward transformed them from being a relatively bland chapter into poster-boys through terrible writing and even worse word of God while he took a dump at the other founding chapters and their adherents.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
SW- Nope. I'm sorry, but I can't love the Wolves. They just seem too SM+1, as if a newbie 12-year-old created a homebrew Chapter to defacate on everyone else's faction. Sorry, but that's an opinion!

You are not alone. I prefer legions that do not try to plaster their image all over the place (opposed to SW BA UM...) and do not try by any means necessary to stand out...

Pre-Ward the point of the Ultramarines was that they were the extreme-LN hardcore straight-laced by-the-book Chapter who did everything by the Codex Astartes and were really bad at adapting to things the Codex didn't tell them how to deal with. Ward and the people who wrote Space Marine and Ultramarines replaced the entirety of the Codex Astartes with "do what the author thinks is the right thing to do" and sucked all the soul and character out of the Chapter.

Meh screw da smurfs retcon them from existance that the trynids ate granddad smurf then spat him out (tasted like cardboard).Then after killing all nids put bolt pistol to their heads and made the universe a better place.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!"

"With a few fringe exceptions .... all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."



Disgusting.

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Pre-Ward the point of the Ultramarines was that they were the extreme-LN hardcore straight-laced by-the-book Chapter who did everything by the Codex Astartes and were really bad at adapting to things the Codex didn't tell them how to deal with. .

Actually, that's 100% not true.

The old Codex Astartes actually described the Codex as the authoritative guide to waging war in any number of ways in thousands of different environments.

It wasn't until Graham McNeill wrote his terrible Ultramarines novels that the Codex became a bad thing.

Like my signature says, Marneus Calgar is explicitly stated to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians". If the Codex was garbage and restrictive, and Calgar is one of the best at warfighting, imagine how bad that makes everybody else at Space Marining, lol.

Being Codex Compliant in the old days just meant they followed all the guidelines on how to select and train their Marines, and maintained a 10x100 Chapter structure. It had nothing to do with how they fought in combat.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!"

"With a few fringe exceptions .... all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."



Disgusting.

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

Because it wasn't their super special 1st founding Chapter that was made the model marines. It makes their special snowflake chapter seem less special.

And mine is the Ultramarines.

EngulfedObjec wrote:t The Space Marine codex wasn't always focused on the Ultramarines. The 3rd ed has the Crimson Fists on the cover for example and only briefly mentions the Ultramarines from what I remember.

This is also incorrect. The 3rd Edition book was the only one that didn't have Ultramarines on the cover (and it was just an homage to the cover of the original Rogue Trader book), and all of them through 5th Edition had painting guides on how to paint Ultramarines, and the fluff was been a copy/paste job from Codex: Ultramarines and talks about the Ultramarines and the Codex Astartes.

It was renamed Codex: Space Marines because GW thought that Codex: Ultramarines was confusing new players on what book to buy to play "regular" Space Marines. The special characters, fluff, and pictures have always been primarily Ultramarines. There are more Ultramarines special characters than any other Chapter, and they've always been the majority in every C:SM book. There are 6 UM SCs in the current Space Marine Codex, and only 7 that are not. In 5th, it was 6:5, in 4th it was 5:2.

Confused about whose book it is still?




There's been a Big 4 since late Rogue Trader. It's always been Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines.


Every other chapter is just "Also Starring" in 40K, lol.

It may burn some of you Ultrahatards up inside a little, but the Ultramarines are no different from the Blangels, Dangels, and Spwolves in how the 40K universe treats them. They all get to take on impossible odds and win, and come back from near-defeat, and be the poster boys of the game. Because they're The Big Four. Trying to suggest that the Ultramarines are somehow "worse" simply because the guys who created 40K decided they were "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" is silly fanboi talk.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

I really like the Ultramarines. I've never understood the smurf-hate. I've never had a good reason for disliking them explained to me.

Why I do like them:
- Classical neo-Roman styling, which I like.
- Color scheme (though I could have done without the 'ultramarine' pun)
- No discernible gene seed corruption.
- Less obsessive-compulsive than Pain Gloves and Cybernetics and Unforgiven and Red Thirst/Black Rage.
- Robute wrote the Codex Astartes. It fixed the issues that led to the Horus Heresy by dispersing power and forcing different forces to work together. After 10,000 years the Codex is still the premier guide to Imperial tactics, techniques and procedures. The main gripe about the Codex Astartes - that people follow it blindly - is kinda like complaining because people worship the atheist Emperor as a God. The fault is not in our Emperor, or in our Codex, but in ourselves.
- Not focused blindly on combat, but excel in administration and rulership. Their rule over the 'Realm of Ultramar' is enlightened and prosperous.

There are other Chapters I like as well, for different reasons. I like the Dark Angels 'sinister monk' vibe. I like the Salamanders living and working among their fully human Promethean brethren. I like the Blood Angels aesthetic vibe, which counterbalances to the whole Thirst/Rage thing. Heck, I like something about just about every First Founding Chapter.

I even like the culture of the Space Wolves, whom I generally dislike. The reasons for my dislike of the Space Wolves could fill a post, but I do like the roaring camaraderie of their heroic neo-Norse culture.

And I agree with Flame-Rage, I'd probably vote for the Thousand Sons if all the Traitors were included. But they weren't.

That's exactly what I would have posted!

For everyone that takes all the stuff about Ultramarines and calls them special snowflakes, every other one of the big 4 chapters has just as much special snowflake garbage. At least Ultramarines don't have "Ultramissles" and "Ultraclaws" and alien space ice claws on not-Berzerker Murdermurdermurder dreads and Mr. Freeze ice guns and special Marks of vehicles that no other Chapters have, or vehicles that are completely unique in the first place that have been kept solely for their chapter for 10,000 years. Or riding their failed, mutated aspirants into battle.

Ultramarines are actually the chapter that has the least of that horrible writing, as far as the big chapters go.

The worst think I can think of right away are the Gauntlets of Ultramar, which in the grand scheme of things, having the weapons of a Primarch routinely taking the field instead of being stored away in a shrine is pretty awesome.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

I really like the Ultramarines. I've never understood the smurf-hate. I've never had a good reason for disliking them explained to me.

Why I do like them:
- Classical neo-Roman styling, which I like.
- Color scheme (though I could have done without the 'ultramarine' pun)
- No discernible gene seed corruption.
- Less obsessive-compulsive than Pain Gloves and Cybernetics and Unforgiven and Red Thirst/Black Rage.
- Robute wrote the Codex Astartes. It fixed the issues that led to the Horus Heresy by dispersing power and forcing different forces to work together. After 10,000 years the Codex is still the premier guide to Imperial tactics, techniques and procedures. The main gripe about the Codex Astartes - that people follow it blindly - is kinda like complaining because people worship the atheist Emperor as a God. The fault is not in our Emperor, or in our Codex, but in ourselves.
- Not focused blindly on combat, but excel in administration and rulership. Their rule over the 'Realm of Ultramar' is enlightened and prosperous.

There are other Chapters I like as well, for different reasons. I like the Dark Angels 'sinister monk' vibe. I like the Salamanders living and working among their fully human Promethean brethren. I like the Blood Angels aesthetic vibe, which counterbalances to the whole Thirst/Rage thing. Heck, I like something about just about every First Founding Chapter.

I even like the culture of the Space Wolves, whom I generally dislike. The reasons for my dislike of the Space Wolves could fill a post, but I do like the roaring camaraderie of their heroic neo-Norse culture.

And I agree with Flame-Rage, I'd probably vote for the Thousand Sons if all the Traitors were included. But they weren't.

That's exactly what I would have posted!

For everyone that takes all the stuff about Ultramarines and calls them special snowflakes, every other one of the big 4 chapters has just as much special snowflake garbage. At least Ultramarines don't have "Ultramissles" and "Ultraclaws" and alien space ice claws on not-Berzerker dreads and Mr. Freeze ice guns and special Marks of vehicles that no other Chapters have, or vehicles that are completely unique in the first place that have been kept solely for their chapter for 10,000 years.

Ultramarines are actually the chapter that has the least of that horrible writing, as far as the big chapters go.

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

Codex Daemonhunters (not the terrible novels!) Grey Knights weren't boring. Their purity came from completely surrendering their egos and their premarine selfs. They were stripped of all that made them human to better fight the unimaginable horror that are the daemons of the warp. All they had to look forward to was to finaly rest within the catacombs of titan, no feasts below a stuffed daemon's head, no Paladins/ Purifiers which were even purer than the rest because of sparkles and sure as hell no SoB blood fueled bloodmagic. Their greatest hero in recent times was not Draigo Sue but Aurelian who lost his very soul in desperate battle against Angron.
Grey Knights are one of the reasons why i consider the fleshing out of some 40k aspects as a very dubious boon.

So, to answer the op's question. Before Ward and the terrible novels i would have choosen the 666. chapter for it's bleak kind of heroism. Nowadays it's the Ultramarines because i can respect a good administrator

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

No need to be nasty and condescending. I am not up to date with current editions. I still know that Ultramarines have less stupid stuff than their bretheren when it comes to crazy writing, though. Blood Weapons? Ice Weapons and Wolf-names? Murderfang? Allying with Necrons?

Ultramarines hate is just a bandwagon to be jumped on. Half the things people look to are by authors who have just as many stupid things invested in other parts of the universal fluff.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

No need to be nasty and condescending. I am not up to date with current editions. I still know that Ultramarines have less stupid stuff than their bretheren when it comes to crazy writing, though.

Ultramarines hate is just a bandwagon to be jumped on.

Sorry for that then. Didn't mean to sound nasty.

And I'm not a hater. I just pointed out where you were in error nothing else.

Doesn't you have backflipping Terminators? Well compared to some writing thats pretty mundane.

If you want a good layout of them go for Dan Abnett's books, he did quite the job describing the Ultramarines as Lawful Good guys with realistic flaws and strengths even though Abnett as always went for POV.

Doesn't you have backflipping Terminators? Well compared to some writing thats pretty mundane.

Yeah but wasn't that C.S. Goto? He's kind of bad all over for anything in the 40K setting, lol.

Space Wolves are far more corrupt than the Thousand Sons they set out to destroy.

Ultramarines do not have naming schemes even remotely as silly as the Space Wolves and to a lesser extent the Blood Angels do. You can have a Space Wolf Wolf Lord wielding Wolf Claws riding on a Thunderwolf, in a unit of Thunderwolf Calvary also equipped with Wolf Claws and having a Stormwolf gunship as air support.

Yeah, I for one think the Roman aesthetic has been handled far better for the Ultramarines than the other Chapters unique looks. Blood Angels and Space Wolves aesthetics used to be more cool in editions past than the "badly overdone" they are today.

Take a look at the Blood Angel tactical squad box. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick is it overloaded with blood drops, vials, chalices, wings and all manner of details. Then the Sergeant has abs and molded nipples. It's just an excess of details for the sake of details. It's the Square Enix school of design.

Yeah, I like the Terminators of Space Hulk being so detailed, but not normal marines.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Doesn't you have backflipping Terminators? Well compared to some writing thats pretty mundane.

Yeah but wasn't that C.S. Goto? He's kind of bad all over for anything in the 40K setting, lol.

Thats the problem with the fluff. At best you get average writers, and even Abnett does the most ridiculous stuff from time to time and he is the best there is.

This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Take a look at the Blood Angel tactical squad box. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick is it overloaded with blood drops, vials, chalices, wings and all manner of details. Then the Sergeant has abs and molded nipples. It's just an excess of details for the sake of details. It's the Square Enix school of design.

Every marine is an individual hero and they wear their awards on their armour. They have no parade armour because their normal combat armour is as flash, as grand as it can be. Every award, every battle honor, they're walking museums and representations of the chapter. You'd have to go back to before the heresy to see plain marines with bog standard armour.
It's only practical that GW puts out mostly plain marines, so that they can be used for as many chapters as possible. When Dark Vengeance came out I remember that a lot of people complained about the DA markings because it would make it difficult to convert to their own chapter.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

The whole idea of the Codex Astartes was creating chapters that are really good at everything. Specialization for Space Marines is not only silly, but impractical. The ability to fight in any way on any planet in any conditions is what would make a Space Marine chapter really good.

Specializing in one kind of warfare is a bad thing for Space Marines. It suggests a dogmatic, inflexible approach and a limited range of thinking. Especially sieges or defensive warfare like the Fists since that kind of fighting is actually anathema to the Space Marines' typical mission. And well, stealth fighting when you're giant armored shock troops is also kinda silly. At least the Blood Angels have the excuse that their Marines lose their minds after a while and can't really be controlled. The reason why the Ultramarines are the best is probably because all of the Space Marine chapters should be imitating their style of warfare, and practical approach to all different kinds of fighting.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

The whole idea of the Codex Astartes was creating chapters that are really good at everything. Specialization for Space Marines is not only silly, but impractical. The ability to fight in any way on any planet in any conditions is what would make a Space Marine chapter really good.

Specializing in one kind of warfare is a bad thing for Space Marines. It suggests a dogmatic, inflexible approach and a limited range of thinking. Especially sieges or defensive warfare like the Fists since that kind of fighting is actually anathema to the Space Marines' typical mission. And well, stealth fighting when you're giant armored shock troops is also kinda silly. At least the Blood Angels have the excuse that their Marines lose their minds after a while and can't really be controlled. The reason why the Ultramarines are the best is probably because all of the Space Marine chapters should be imitating their style of warfare, and practical approach to all different kinds of fighting.

And being jack of all trades can also be a hindrance in certain situations, but that's not my problem with your post. This idea of things being impractical or unrealistic has crept into the forums especially bad in the last month or so for some reason. The entire setting is ridiculous, so where does this all come from? One of the greatest threats to mankind is space fungus that rides asteroids down to the planet and attacks with blunt axes and guns that shouldn't work. Space Marines themselves use chainsaw swords, and can gain an alien's memory by eating their brains. Having chapters that specialize in one form of combat over another is hardly the most impractical thing in the setting.

ever since the first color image came out in the Rogue Trader days, when it was just grey armor and a red wolf head, Space Wolves have always been my favorite Chapter...
as their character was developed in their first Codex, with incredible art by Mark Gibbons, i was hooked for life...
to me, they are the coolest, as the Nordic themes resonate strongly with me...
no other Chapter has the same appeal for me...

Blood Angels are a close second, followed by the Salamanders, and the Iron Hands...
i love the bling of the Blood Angels, the fire of the Salamanders, and the bionics of the Iron Hands, but none of these Chapters have a backstory that speaks to me like the Space Wolves do...

cheers
jah

 Wyzilla wrote:
This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

I would say that if Space Marines lacked one ability it would be the ability to be modest. Honestly only one chapter can be called modest (the Imperial Fists) and even that is a stretch.

 Wyzilla wrote:
This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

I'm sure if they made a DA specific tactical squad now it would be just as blinged out as the BA one is.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

I'm sure if they made a DA specific tactical squad now it would be just as blinged out as the BA one is.

They did, and it wasn't.

No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Oh what yeah the monopose plastics from DV? That's the same. Also still getting on 3 years ago.

I reckon they'd overbling them if they did a proper Tac squad like the BA one. If they did one like the DV ones but posable and with all the options that would be pretty cool. Although I do quite like the BA one, and it kindof fits them maybe I guess? But they do seem to just add things wherever there's space lately, hence why everything has skulls all over the place.

Gotta go raven guard because, well shrike.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Where are the robes? I thought the Dark Angels jogged around looking like the Cowled Wizards just in powered armour.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Where are the robes? I thought the Dark Angels jogged around looking like the Cowled Wizards just in powered armour.

You only get to wear robes on your armor if you're a veteran/member of the inner circle.

Since those kekkers are scrubs, they only get to wear robes out of armor.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they didn't, that was like...6/7 years ago? Notice I said 'if they made one NOW...'

Where are the robes? I thought the Dark Angels jogged around looking like the Cowled Wizards just in powered armour.

You only get to wear robes on your armor if you're a veteran/member of the inner circle.

Since those kekkers are scrubs, they only get to wear robes out of armor.

Okay, seems to make sense.

BrianDavion wrote:

Sabor wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:


Have you ever read a SW novel? Any SW novel refutes point 1

And the Lion knocked Russ out with one hit.

They have lost multiple engagements, including one that was started with the imperium of man itself...thus point 1 is still valid and strong. The space wolves will lose on occasions, where as ultramarines, they have only ever lost a handful of engagements ever and even when they lose those small engagements they are retconned or made seem small for the much larger war which they crush the enemy. (I.e. hive fleet behemoth, Damnos, the ironblood campaign etc...)

I'd argue that surviving a fight with the entire IoM puts them as firmly in the Mary sue camp as any other SM chapter

Are you talking about the time the Ecclesiarchy besieged Fenris? Because, if so, that was only a single Fleet with some SoB, not "the entire IoM". The SW have never directly fought the IoM, though they have come close on multiple occasions (Armageddon comes to mind)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Take a look at the Blood Angel tactical squad box. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick is it overloaded with blood drops, vials, chalices, wings and all manner of details. Then the Sergeant has abs and molded nipples. It's just an excess of details for the sake of details. It's the Square Enix school of design.

That's even touched on like twenty times in the Omnibus, a few of the BA Successors look down on the BA for being so fancy and wearing overly ornate armour. That's actually part of the reason that I went BA Successor, because BA are too damn pompous for my tastes. Sanguinius and BA Legion were amazing, though, and I can't let go of Space Jesus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the Smurf fanboys:
Ultramarines are most certainly not the best, nor do all Chapters look up to Calgar and wish they were Smurfs (maybe, like, 1% do). Chapters of Astartes highly prize their indivuality and Chapter heritage/pride/honor, and would never see another Chapter as better than there own, though there are always exceptions.

It's probably more than 1% look up to the Ultramarines, seeing as there's a hell of a lot of UM successors. I don't think anyone was actually suggesting that the UM are the best, just pointed out that's what it says in the fluff, and the UM are a very well rounded competent fighting force, very disciplined, and excellent track record even from before the Heresy, and yeah, I would say they're one of the best chapters.

really I'd say what Ultramarines have the best of is PR.

BrianDavion wrote:
really I'd say what Ultramarines have the best of is PR.

I doubt that considering even before the Heresy they are stated to have the second highest number of compliances after Horus and his Wolves.

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

The Terminus Ultra is no bigger than a standard Land Raider. And is extensively used by the Ultramarines. Also, see the Land Raider Crusader, named after the Black Templars.

Yep. They really aren't as bad as the Space Wolves on the naming regard.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I don't think anyone was actually suggesting that the UM are the best, just pointed out that's what it says in the fluff, and the UM are a very well rounded competent fighting force, very disciplined, and excellent track record even from before the Heresy, and yeah, I would say they're one of the best chapters.

You just described over 90% of space Marine Chapters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

I'm fairly certain that the Ultima pattern fell out of use in favor of the Godwyn, but was, at one point, the standard.

Yeah 90% of the chapters have an excellent track record from before the Heresy...

The Ultramarines are one of the most efficient, effective, disciplined fighting forces ever. Even before the heresy they had one of the best records, I think the Luna Wolves were the only legion with more compliances, and considering Horus was the first Primarch found, you'd expect them to have a good record. The Ultramarines had their own empire of sorts, 500 worlds. The Codex Astartes is a very good guide on warfare, and was never meant to be taken as literally as some do, but even then, using the Codex is not a bad thing. Being an Ultramarine is not a bad thing. I'm sure lots of other chapters look up to them, they're prolific, theyre well known and surely that speaks for itself, they wouldn't be without having earned it. Whether or not you like them, they're damn good.

And Ultima isn't necessarily from Ultramarine is it. If it was the standard that's probably just what the Mechanicum called it. So no, they don't have a ridiculous trend as the SW or BA.

Greeeaaat, another fanboy. I'll just exit the room right after I finish this thought: the Ultramarines are the most vanilla Chapter ever. At least 50% of Chapters are modeled after them, and the rest just use the common sense of a supersoldier and USE THE CODEX ASTARTES AS A TACTICS BIBLE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. 90% of Chapters are an effective, well-rounded fighting force, due to the Codex Astartes being forced upon them; the outliers being those who specialize. Hell, even the Blood Angels are a well-rounded, effective fighting force; they're almost entirely codex compliant.

Right, so because I quite like the Ultramarines I'm immediately dismissed as a 'fanboy'? Awesome. There's no point even trying then.

No one has the codex forced upon them. They don't have to follow it, or follow all of it. Look at the SW. Look at the various other chapters that don't follow it to the letter. My point is, following the codex isn't inherantly a bad thing.

And if 90% of chapters are also effective well rounded forces why is it the Ultramarines that are constantly dismissed?

And what's wrong with being vanilla and well rounded anyway?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Right, so because I quite like the Ultramarines I'm immediately dismissed as a 'fanboy'? Awesome. There's no point even trying then.

No one has the codex forced upon them. They don't have to follow it, or follow all of it. Look at the SW. Look at the various other chapters that don't follow it to the letter. My point is, following the codex isn't inherantly a bad thing.

And if 90% of chapters are also effective well rounded forces why is it the Ultramarines that are constantly dismissed?

And what's wrong with being vanilla and well rounded anyway?

I don't think you understood what I wrote, but I'll give you a hint. The argument was about a boatload of other Chapters looking up to the Ultramarines as the best of the best of the best, and you said it was due to them being a well-rounded, highly effective fighting force. I refuted this statement, as that describes just about every Chapter. I apologize if I come off as condescending.

As far as Ultramarines being dismissed, it's mainly because they're a.) Mary Sues b.) Have a gak-ton of plot armour c.) Just like over 50% of other Marines; too bland, no unique flavor.

They do have unique flavour though. I'm guessing you haven't read their Heresy stuff, because I didn't like them before I did, but at the end of the day, they're all Space Marines, they either are quite similar, or you get a ridiculous parody like the Space Wolves are. Or at least with GW writers you do. Every Space Marine has plot armour. SW are just as Mary Sue as the UM. The UM have a 10,000 year history of generally getting the job done, that's why other chapters would look up to them. And other chapters are as well rounded and efficient as them because of the Codex, which was written by Guilliman. So yeah, other chapters are as efficient, but the UM did it first.

But seeing as I'm just a fanboy, im sure none of this is going to be taken into consideration.

Also, it's okay not to like something, but dismissing everyone who does as a fanboy is not necesary.

For me, it's a tie between Blood Angels, Ultras and Space Wolves, each from a different PoV.

Blood Angels I love as their history and nature are a brilliant example of tragic heroism, from each Brother fighting the Thirst to Sanguinis's sacrifice and the stain it has left on the Chapter. The idea of them knowing they are ultimately doomed, but not once being tempted to turn from their duty, is just awesomely inspiring.

Ultras I like from an out-of-universe perspective, due to the irony of what they have become. Considering how their Primarch hailed flexibility and adaptation, and how now they are among the more contrained Chapters in terms of Doctrine (to the point where anyone innovative is actively shunned, see Ventris, Titus from the game and Sicarius to some extent), it's a representation of the IoM as a whole, so far fallen to a twisted ideal of its golden age.

And Space Wolves are just 40k personified. The over-the-topness, the legends and even their inconsistencies perfectly sum up the 'turn it to 11' nature of the setting.

 ImAGeek wrote:
They do have unique flavour though. I'm guessing you haven't read their Heresy stuff, because I didn't like them before I did, but at the end of the day, they're all Space Marines, they either are quite similar, or you get a ridiculous parody like the Space Wolves are. Or at least with GW writers you do. Every Space Marine has plot armour. SW are just as Mary Sue as the UM. The UM have a 10,000 year history of generally getting the job done, that's why other chapters would look up to them. And other chapters are as well rounded and efficient as them because of the Codex, which was written by Guilliman. So yeah, other chapters are as efficient, but the UM did it first.

But seeing as I'm just a fanboy, im sure none of this is going to be taken into consideration.

1.)Space Wolves have many examples of being duped, falling to Chaos, etc. Whereas the Ultramarines have an endless string of victories without a SINGLE major defeat or conspiracy in TEN THOUSAND GEARS
2.) Most Chapters have a 10k year history of getting the job done, otherwise the Space Marine Chapters would have been disbanded, or they wouldn't have created any new Chapters after the Second Founding.

It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

I love the raven guard, but instead of being marines that like to use careful planning, concealment and sudden strikes to disrupt and outmaneuver the enemy they're all invisible ninjas with double lightning claws and jump packs

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

Tell me about it. I can see why people wouldn't like them (mainly due to bad writing) but it's almost at meme level now, the dislike for the Ultramarines.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

Tell me about it. I can see why people wouldn't like them (mainly due to bad writing) but it's almost at meme level now, the dislike for the Ultramarines.

I think many of the fans paint everything as hatred. I mean just not thinking of the Ultramarines as awesome means you get painted as a hater. The truth in general is more complex.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

Tell me about it. I can see why people wouldn't like them (mainly due to bad writing) but it's almost at meme level now, the dislike for the Ultramarines.

I think many of the fans paint everything as hatred. I mean just not thinking of the Ultramarines as awesome means you get painted as a hater. The truth in general is more complex.

I've never seen anyone ridiculed or called a hater for not liking the Ultramarines, and I've often seen people who like them be called fanboys and such. Even in this thread, I put forward a statement about them and immediately all I got was 'oh great, another fanboy...'

I wouldn't mind, but it's perfectly okay to be a fan of the space wolves, or the blood Angels, or any other chapter but if you like the Ultramarines 'oh no another smurf fanboi'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

I love the raven guard, but instead of being marines that like to use careful planning, concealment and sudden strikes to disrupt and outmaneuver the enemy they're all invisible ninjas with double lightning claws and jump packs

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting that if you like the Ultramarines as much as anyone likes other Chapters, you get labeled a fanboy.

Is there such a thing as an Ultramarines hateboy?

Every single one of the major Chapters has had some part of their character blown out of proportion by bad writing. For Ultramarines it's being the golden boys, for Blood Angels it's bloody, blood, blood blood. For Space Wolves it's having Santa Claus as their Chapter master and everything wolfy, etc.

Tell me about it. I can see why people wouldn't like them (mainly due to bad writing) but it's almost at meme level now, the dislike for the Ultramarines.

I think many of the fans paint everything as hatred. I mean just not thinking of the Ultramarines as awesome means you get painted as a hater. The truth in general is more complex.

I've never seen anyone ridiculed or called a hater for not liking the Ultramarines, and I've often seen people who like them be called fanboys and such. Even in this thread, I put forward a statement about them and immediately all I got was 'oh great, another fanboy...'

I wouldn't mind, but it's perfectly okay to be a fan of the space wolves, or the blood Angels, or any other chapter but if you like the Ultramarines 'oh no another smurf fanboi'.

Where in this post have you seen people ridiculing or belittling a person for being an Ultramarine fanboi? I haven't seen it at this post, but that might be me.

Both the BA and SW suffers from a different kind of bad writing than the Ultramarines so thats their explanation. I see a lot of hatred for the SW but I curb my enthusiasm for defending them at every turn and corner. If people dislike something defending it would change nothing.

 dusara217 wrote:
Greeeaaat, another fanboy. I'll just exit the room right after I finish this thought: the Ultramarines are the most vanilla Chapter ever. At least 50% of Chapters are modeled after them, and the rest just use the common sense of a supersoldier and USE THE CODEX ASTARTES AS A TACTICS BIBLE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. 90% of Chapters are an effective, well-rounded fighting force, due to the Codex Astartes being forced upon them; the outliers being those who specialize. Hell, even the Blood Angels are a well-rounded, effective fighting force; they're almost entirely codex compliant.

How is that not meant to be belittling? Just because I put a defence forward about the UM, not a raving fanboyish one, it was perfectly reasonable. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind (for the third time i can see why people might not like them), but it would be nice to have a reasonable conversation about them without immediately being labelled a fanboy.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Greeeaaat, another fanboy. I'll just exit the room right after I finish this thought: the Ultramarines are the most vanilla Chapter ever. At least 50% of Chapters are modeled after them, and the rest just use the common sense of a supersoldier and USE THE CODEX ASTARTES AS A TACTICS BIBLE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. 90% of Chapters are an effective, well-rounded fighting force, due to the Codex Astartes being forced upon them; the outliers being those who specialize. Hell, even the Blood Angels are a well-rounded, effective fighting force; they're almost entirely codex compliant.

How is that not meant to be belittling? Just because I put a defence forward about the UM, not a raving fanboyish one, it was perfectly reasonable. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind (for the third time i can see why people might not like them), but it would be nice to have a reasonable conversation about them without immediately being labelled a fanboy.

That is bad, and I'm sorry for missing that one.

well many people have bad experiences with them, but thats no excuse for being mean. Its only a Freudian explanation.

I called you a fanboy because the gist of what you said was "Ultramarines are the best and have no faults and all other Chapters want to be Ultras". I have always found the Ultramarines to be a great Chapter, but it has very little character to it aside from some Roman-sounding names.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

The Terminus Ultra is no bigger than a standard Land Raider. And is extensively used by the Ultramarines. Also, see the Land Raider Crusader, named after the Black Templars.

Yep. They really aren't as bad as the Space Wolves on the naming regard.

Actually you are quite mistaken. So were I, there are numerous patterns of bolters named after them. They are almost Red Bull in space naming everything after them. And they have a huge frakking tank named after them, i mean a Land Raider is quite the tank.. Well just be happy they didn't name a class of Titan or Battleship after themselves. They named a Segmentum after themselves. Seriously, I wouldn't try to defend this point if I were you as no other chapter nor legion has done that.

The Godwyn Ultima-pattern is used by the Minotaurs.

You have Mark II and III Ultima-patterns. Plus Ultra-pattern Mark VII. And it seems bolt-pistols were made of Ultima-pattern as well as the Ryza-Ultima-pattern comes to mind. I hope you made this argument out of ignorance and not in order to conceal the truth.

Blood Angels: Sanguinius is the bomb, Death Company are total badasses, Sanguinary guard are cool as all hell, Furiosos rock the table, Dante is the bomb (on the table top) and I love the red colour scheme.

 dusara217 wrote:
I called you a fanboy because the gist of what you said was "Ultramarines are the best and have no faults and all other Chapters want to be Ultras". I have always found the Ultramarines to be a great Chapter, but it has very little character to it aside from some Roman-sounding names.

That's not what I said. I've never said they have no faults. The gist of what I said, actually, is 'they're one of the most efficient fighting forces ever with a long illustrious history, that's why other Chapters look up to (look up to, not 'want to be') the Ultramarines'. Which I think is perfectly reasonable, not fanboyish at all. Yes lots of other Chapters are efficient and have a long history but that's why other chapters look up to the Ultramarines. That's all I said. Not once did I say 'UM are the best and have no faults', you just read that in what I wrote because you just dismissed me as a fanboy, which is my entire point.

Alpha legion. An army of ten thousand operatives.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

The Terminus Ultra is no bigger than a standard Land Raider. And is extensively used by the Ultramarines. Also, see the Land Raider Crusader, named after the Black Templars.

Yep. They really aren't as bad as the Space Wolves on the naming regard.

Actually you are quite mistaken. So were I, there are numerous patterns of bolters named after them. They are almost Red Bull in space naming everything after them. And they have a huge frakking tank named after them, i mean a Land Raider is quite the tank.. Well just be happy they didn't name a class of Titan or Battleship after themselves. They named a Segmentum after themselves. Seriously, I wouldn't try to defend this point if I were you as no other chapter nor legion has done that.

The Godwyn Ultima-pattern is used by the Minotaurs.

You have Mark II and III Ultima-patterns. Plus Ultra-pattern Mark VII. And it seems bolt-pistols were made of Ultima-pattern as well as the Ryza-Ultima-pattern comes to mind. I hope you made this argument out of ignorance and not in order to conceal the truth.

So, they have the Ultima bolter and bolt pistol (because bolters and bolt pistols will have the same pattern because they're built together, like the forge world bolters and bolt pistols do, AND we don't even know if they're named after the UM, Ultima is a pretty generic name), and the LR Terminus Ultra. Do you mean Ultramar as the segmentum? I don't see what's wrong with that seeing as the Ultramarines formed it. The British made an empire; it was called the British Empire.

But if you really don't see the difference between 'Ultramar' and 'Ultima'; and 'Canis Wolfborn on a ThunderWolf with Wolf Claws and Wolf Amulets with the Saga of the Wolf...' Or 'Murderfang with Murderclaws and Murderlust from the planet Omnicide', I really don't know what to say.

 dusara217 wrote:
I called you a fanboy because the gist of what you said was "Ultramarines are the best and have no faults and all other Chapters want to be Ultras". I have always found the Ultramarines to be a great Chapter, but it has very little character to it aside from some Roman-sounding names.

I respectfully disagree, the character is there, it's just hard to find for a few reasons. the first is that as the "poster boy" chapter for the vanilla codex Ultramarines share page time with well... everyone else. IMHO the 6th edition codex which is notably thicker finally did some justice there, but it's worth noting that the dark angels codex has 26 pages devoted to Dark Angels history vs the Ultramarines having only 10 or so in Codex Space Marines. And then a few pages in a dataslate, there's a simply LOT less page count for the individual chapter. Even when you account for the increased page count in Codex: SMs (space Wolves meanwhile have the most codex info on them, possing a full codex unencumbered by any sucessor chapters and a supplement)

so you have less information, and what we do know is a little more subtle then the wolves and blood angels whom are pretty "in your face" about what makes them unique.

Can we all just agree the pre-Clan Raukan Iron Hands are far cooler than any other chapter and move on with our lives?

Raven Guard, because of Charcardorons. I think they might be what is left of the mutant Raven Guard, but I have not yet read a lot on RG other than the wiki page, so meybe not.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Raven Guard, because of Charcardorons. I think they might be what is left of the mutant Raven Guard, but I have not yet read a lot on RG other than the wiki page, so meybe not.

I think they're basically a 'Nomad Predation Fleet' of Raven Guard that were sent to the edges of the Galaxy before the heresy, basically they're legionnaires from before Corax was found who were too bloodthirsty for his liking. They even had grey armour. That's what Extermination hints at.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
well many people have bad experiences with them

What do you mean? Did an Ultramarine steal your girlfriend or something

 Manchu wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
well many people have bad experiences with them

What do you mean? Did an Ultramarine steal your girlfriend or something

RE: Space Sharks - having a Khornish black sheep successor chapter is the new black it seems.

 Manchu wrote:
RE: Space Sharks - having a Khornish black sheep successor chapter is the new black it seems.

If they are what they're hinted to be (see my post above) it's because ore Corax RG worked with the Luna Wolves a lot (they were treated almost like another chapter of the LW) and they were pretty bloodthirsty, that's where they got it from.

 Manchu wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
well many people have bad experiences with them

What do you mean? Did an Ultramarine steal your girlfriend or something

You are a MOD, you should have seen that with your own eyes through experience, the experience-thing with the fans.

 ImAGeek wrote:
(see my post above)

What's your source for that info? From Badab Pt 2?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
you should have seen that with your own eyes through experience

In my experience, most people dislike the UM because they are the guys pictured on the box and that's really all there is to it.

 Manchu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
(see my post above)

What's your source for that info? From Badab Pt 2?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
you should have seen that with your own eyes through experience

In my experience, most people dislike the UM because they are the guys pictured on the box and that's really all there is to it.

It's from Extermination

I only have book one

I only have 2 and 3

Pity you are across the ocean, seems we own (or don't own) just the right books to be friends.

Yeah it is. I really want book 1 but I haven't found the money yet. Just need someone else with book four and bam, book club!

Do you know if Mr. Bligh also wrote Book IV?

 Manchu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
(see my post above)

What's your source for that info? From Badab Pt 2?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
you should have seen that with your own eyes through experience

In my experience, most people dislike the UM because they are the guys pictured on the box and that's really all there is to it.

For me its more to it, but each has his or her own individual experience. And honestly I don't really see it that way. But thats me.

So what bad experience did you have with UM then?

 Manchu wrote:
Do you know if Mr. Bligh also wrote Book IV?

I'm pretty sure he did, yeah.

 Manchu wrote:
So what bad experience did you have with UM then?

More fanbois as the UM only exist on paper, tabletop and in a really crappy cartoon.

For the summary, just read what me and ImAGeek has discussed over this post.

Plus there are fans of Matt Ward.

I absolutely love the background for the Salamanders. I actually chose them at random, but they are my favorite Chapter to this day. They are the unsung heroes, fighting without seeking glory. The Salamanders are also willing to stand and fight for what they believe, not backing down in compromise.

The Sallies are unsullied, no mean feat in the grimdark. The galaxy would be a great place if it were ruled by Sallies and UMs.

If ruled by them with their Primarchs, would be even better.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

The Terminus Ultra is no bigger than a standard Land Raider. And is extensively used by the Ultramarines. Also, see the Land Raider Crusader, named after the Black Templars.

Yep. They really aren't as bad as the Space Wolves on the naming regard.

Actually you are quite mistaken. So were I, there are numerous patterns of bolters named after them. They are almost Red Bull in space naming everything after them. And they have a huge frakking tank named after them, i mean a Land Raider is quite the tank.. Well just be happy they didn't name a class of Titan or Battleship after themselves. They named a Segmentum after themselves. Seriously, I wouldn't try to defend this point if I were you as no other chapter nor legion has done that.

The Godwyn Ultima-pattern is used by the Minotaurs.

You have Mark II and III Ultima-patterns. Plus Ultra-pattern Mark VII. And it seems bolt-pistols were made of Ultima-pattern as well as the Ryza-Ultima-pattern comes to mind. I hope you made this argument out of ignorance and not in order to conceal the truth.

Ahem. Land Raider Crusader. I wonder who that could be named after... (HINT: IT'S THE BLACK TEMPLARS)
Also, I don't see anywhere that the Terminus Ultra was ever developed or even named after/by the Ultramarines?

Ultima Segmentum was named before the Ultramarines arrival, and actually implies "Ultimate", as in last, or largest. It is both: furthest from Terra (so later discovered) and the largest Segmentum.

Again, we have no idea if the Ultima Pattern bolter was named after the UM, as it could be a standard pattern in the Ultima Segmentum, or from a Forge World. Or does this mean the Phobos pattern bolter is named after the world of Phobos and the Imperial Guardsmen that may wield it? Also, it is nowhere stated that the Ultramarines use these weapons. Why would the Ultramarines name a weapon but not use it?

As a whole, Ultima or Ultra- fits in well with the faux-latin thing the Imperium has going on, possibly meaning "Final", "Best", "Largest", "Last" or anything like that. Not specifically named after the UM.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So what bad experience did you have with UM then?

More fanbois as the UM only exist on paper, tabletop and in a really crappy cartoon.

For the summary, just read what me and ImAGeek has discussed over this post.

Plus there are fans of Matt Ward.

except we don't see any "fanbois" saying anything particularly objectionable. Just that the Ultramarines are one of the best chapters and are seen as almost a model for other codex chapters to follow (which given all the history should be no suprise. the Ultramarines are after all THE codex chapter) this isn't objectionable. It's stated across multiple sources. I think it's pretty obvious that GW's intent is that the "big 4" are proably seen as the best space Marine chapters out there. And of the big 4, the Dark Angels and Space Wolves have some issues with authorities, the Blood Angels have their issues, the Ultramarines are proably seen as the most steady and reliable of the big 4, which to the IoM counts for a LOT. Also most UM fans are not just random Matt Ward fanboys. we play Ultramarines for many reasons, perhaps we enjoyed Graham McNeils novels, perhaps we've played ultramarines since second edition, when we remember that it was Codex: Ultramarines, not Codex: Space Marines, Maybe we like blue and gold? Maybe we just like people so good at space Marineing they wrote the book on it? Or yeah maybe we DID find something inspirational in the 5th edition codex, (why is it that ultramarines are the target of hate here? Ward also wrote codex Blood Angels, quick let's pick on the blood angels for being a buncha whiny Ward fan boys! ) Ward wrote a LOT of codexes in 5th edition if we're gonna hate anyone who likes armies he's touched that means blood angels, ultramarines, grey knights, necrons, maybe we shouldn't bash an army just cause Ward wrote the 'dex for it. Mkay?

Honestly of codexes I've read the space marine 'dex was proably the most reasonable of the Ward 'dexes fluff wise (note: I have not read codex blood angels 5E) I mean the necrons had a lot of silly stuff in it, (I'm not talking the reboot which IMHO was needed) and grey knights.............. oyboy...

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agreextermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agreextermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I called you a fanboy because the gist of what you said was "Ultramarines are the best and have no faults and all other Chapters want to be Ultras". I have always found the Ultramarines to be a great Chapter, but it has very little character to it aside from some Roman-sounding names.

I respectfully disagree, the character is there, it's just hard to find for a few reasons. the first is that as the "poster boy" chapter for the vanilla codex Ultramarines share page time with well... everyone else. IMHO the 6th edition codex which is notably thicker finally did some justice there, but it's worth noting that the dark angels codex has 26 pages devoted to Dark Angels history vs the Ultramarines having only 10 or so in Codex Space Marines. And then a few pages in a dataslate, there's a simply LOT less page count for the individual chapter. Even when you account for the increased page count in Codex: SMs (space Wolves meanwhile have the most codex info on them, possing a full codex unencumbered by any sucessor chapters and a supplement)

so you have less information, and what we do know is a little more subtle then the wolves and blood angels whom are pretty "in your face" about what makes them unique.

The Ultramarines are literally generic Marines. They're the Poster Boys because they represent the Marine-ey-est Marines of all Marinehood. They follow the Codex Astartes to the letter (though they diverge from it in several ways and are total fething hypocrites, but that's not what we're arguing here, so I'll leave that be), they have generic troops, generic leaders, generic tactics, generic everything. Almost everything about them is quite sensible, yes, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the only thing that makes Ultramarines Ultramarines is some blue armour and the fact that they were born Ultramarian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where has there been any Ultramarine hate? I just re-read the last two pages and saw absolutely zero Ultra-hate, unless you count me calling them a vanilla Chapter.

The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

Again, there's nothing wrong with being vanilla and well rounded. If you find that boring, fair enough, but intrinsically being 'generic' isn't a bad thing.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agree extermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

That's semi true, gav thorpe has done all the heresy related stuff (one novel, one audio book, one short story and two novellas) but he's nowhere near as good as ADB or the god that is abnett. The sad fact is that except for ADB and McNeil, all the other author mained book series are really bad. The salamanders series was horrible, as was the blood angels, I was extremely disappointed to see them write hours heresy material for those two chapters. McNeil as I've said falters on the Raven Guard but does a very good job at writing ultra marines and iron warriors.

Honestly they made the raptors exactly how the Raven Guard should have been

 ImAGeek wrote:
The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

Again, there's nothing wrong with being vanilla and well rounded. If you find that boring, fair enough, but intrinsically being 'generic' isn't a bad thing.

You have to admit there's some truth in calling the Ultramarines generic.

The Blood Angels have the Black Rage and Red Thirst thing, the Space Wolves have gene-seed that gives them animalistic features and also have the Curse of the Wolfen problem, the DA have the Order/Inner Circle thing from their days on Caliban, as well as their terrible secret with the Fallen (and the penchant for wearing robes ). Plus they blew up their homeworld and actually fly around on what's left. Come on, that's friggin cool.

These chapters are also organized differently since they don't follow the Codex Astartes to the letter (Grand Companies, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Deathwing/Ravenwing, DA being organized like a legion, etc).

So yea, some of that uniqueness is the price to pay when you are THE Codex Astartes chapter.

Personally I don't hate the Ultramarines but I do find them rather boring and dogmatic. And I feel like they get their screen time at the expense of other First Founding chapters. AND there's their mini-Imperium around Macragge and Spiritual Liege thing, which does make them seem very hypocritical.

I didn't say they weren't generic. I said that being generic isn't necessarily a bad thing. Read the bottom part of what I said.

Why is Ultramar hypocritical?

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agree extermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

That's semi true, gav thorpe has done all the heresy related stuff (one novel, one audio book, one short story and two novellas) but he's nowhere near as good as ADB or the god that is abnett. The sad fact is that except for ADB and McNeil, all the other author mained book series are really bad. The salamanders series was horrible, as was the blood angels, I was extremely disappointed to see them write hours heresy material for those two chapters. McNeil as I've said falters on the Raven Guard but does a very good job at writing ultra marines and iron warriors.

Honestly they made the raptors exactly how the Raven Guard should have been

Have you actually read the Ultramarines and Iron Warrior books? McNeil portrays both as incompetent stooges instead of the masters of war they're supposed to be. Especially the Ultramarines.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't say they weren't generic. I said that being generic isn't necessarily a bad thing. Read the bottom part of what I said.

Why is Ultramar hypocritical?

Woah, calm down there. I know you didn't say they weren't generic, I was pointing out that there's more to it than

 ImAGeek wrote:
The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

because that's simply not true.

The Ultramar and Spiritual Liege thing are hypocritical because the whole point of breaking the legions into chapters was to reduce their power, not to mention it was their Primarch who demanded it and who was willing to call Dorn a traitor simply because he refused (and Dorn was there at the Battle of Terra whereas Gulliman wasn't! The nerve!). Instead, you have the Ultramarines running their own empire and their successors ready to listen to their 'spiritual liege,' though to what extent is debatable I guess.

They were also by far the most numerous at the time so obviously splitting the legions would result in most marines becoming Ultramarines successors... that sneaky bastard.

I mean look at this way. Imagine we're the Primarchs and we all have our respective legions. All our legions have been reduced to waaaay below strength. The second most intact legion at this point (the DA) just had their homeworld (read: recruiting world) blown up. Then I come in and say "Hey guys, I have an idea! How about we DON'T rebuild our legions and just split what we have right now, ehhhhh?"

Because that's pretty much happened lol. Guillman also managed to make himself a Lord Commander, basically getting on the good side of the Council of Terra and calling all who opposed him traitors. The Imperial Fists were even fired upon! Heresy!

The splitting of the legions, I see it the other way. The Ultramarines were sacrificing the most by splitting their legion, because they had the biggest legion. Yeah they'd have the most successors, but successors are free to go and do their own thing, it's not like they're still commanded by the UM. So the UM actually had he most to lose by doing so.

And they aren't really running an empire, Ultramar is still part of the Imperium, they're more like running a section of the Imperium.

And the reasoning behind splitting the legions is pretty sound. It prevents another Heresy, because if a chapter falls, they have a fraction of the strength of a legion to use against the imperium.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The splitting of the legions, I see it the other way. The Ultramarines were sacrificing the most by splitting their legion, because they had the biggest legion. Yeah they'd have the most successors, but successors are free to go and do their own thing, it's not like they're still commanded by the UM. So the UM actually had he most to lose by doing so.

And they aren't really running an empire, Ultramar is still part of the Imperium, they're more like running a section of the Imperium.

And the reasoning behind splitting the legions is pretty sound. It prevents another Heresy, because if a chapter falls, they have a fraction of the strength of a legion to use against the imperium.

Yea, it all depends on how you look at it. The reasoning is sound but there's different ways to interpret it. It also depends on how the fluff is written. The way Matt Ward wrote it didn't exactly make it sound like they were making a big sacrifice, instead making it sound like they entirely took over what being a Space Marine should mean and making all other founding chapters "fringe."

Yeah but... Mat Ward...

Land Raider Ultima being stupidly Ultramarines (despite that being a segmentum name, not after the Chapter) Really?

Land Raider Crusader from Black Templars, Baal Predator from BA, Dark Talon and Dark Shroud from Dark Angels, Stormwolf and Stormfang gunships from Space Wolves.....

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah but... Mat Ward...

Well... yea

Anyway, the Ultramarines themselves are fine, it's just that the setting would be more interesting if the successor chapters were more evenly divided. That's why the Horus Heresy is so interesting; you have 18 legions and their Primarchs at each others throats. Now it's more like Ultramarines successors and their few odd cousins fighting for the Imperium...

Eh, I don't really follow which legion a chapter came from. I either like them or I dont, and in some cases they're vastly different from their parent legion. Anyway, most of the 2nd founding chapters -> onwards kinda blend into each other, there aren't many that stand out regardless of where they come from. So it doesn't really bother me.

I'm mostly in it for the 30k stuff anyway haha.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Eh, I don't really follow which legion a chapter came from. I either like them or I dont, and in some cases they're vastly different from their parent legion. Anyway, most of the 2nd founding chapters -> onwards kinda blend into each other, there aren't many that stand out regardless of where they come from. So it doesn't really bother me.

I'm mostly in it for the 30k stuff anyway haha.

Well you don't need to because they're probably Ultramarines successors anyway unless specifically stated. The numbers don't affect whether or not I like a specific chapter all that much but it does change the tone of the setting and my enjoyment of it. I'd really much prefer if the founding legions were represented equally.

And the chapters wouldn't blend into each other as much since they'd take on characteristics from their parent chapter. The Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Mantis Warriors, Carcharadons, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, and so on all stand out more to me because they embody certain aspects of their parent chapter while having their own unique twists. With codex compliant chapters that stem from a parent chapter whose defining characteristic is that it is codex compliant, you end up with chapters that just blend together. The Ultramarines successors don't really stand out that much except maybe the Mortificators.

That said, I like the setting the way it is, I just think it could be much better.

I just think they all blend together (past the few that you mentioned) no matter who their founding legion was, partly because they aren't written about much, and partly because there's just so many. Not necessarily anything to do with them mostly being UM successors, because just because they're successors of the UM doesn't mean they can't be divergent. They just aren't written to be divergent, or are hardly written about at all.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I just think they all blend together (past the few that you mentioned) no matter who their founding legion was, partly because they aren't written about much, and partly because there's just so many. Not necessarily anything to do with them mostly being UM successors, because just because they're successors of the UM doesn't mean they can't be divergent. They just aren't written to be divergent, or are hardly written about at all.

That's true but at least it'd be 9 chapters blending together, which would also represent the player base more equally. Still, 2/3rds of all chapters, yet they don't have any standout successors on par with the Black Templars or Crimson Fists.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

Again, there's nothing wrong with being vanilla and well rounded. If you find that boring, fair enough, but intrinsically being 'generic' isn't a bad thing.

Space Wolves have the Curse of the Wolfen, the Canis Helix, which turns them into fething werewolves. They also spent literally their entire lives fighting and dying, and out of a culture that is fighting from age 1, the best warriors out of millions of fantastic warriors are chosen. They're also vikings that are obsessed with wolves, and have to defeat the alpha of a Fenrisian Wolf Pack as a rite of passage into the Wolf Guard. That's a helluva lot more character than Marines Marines Roman names Marines.

The Blood Angels have the Red Thirst and Black Rage as well as their Sanguinary lineage. They are Artificers and artists as well as warriors. They go insane before battle (on occasion). They have an insatiable thirst for blood. They were born emaciated tribals who are forced to fight for survival their entire lives, just for the opportunity to join the Angels. They have far more angelic-ness to them as well, things like Winged jump packs come to mind. Whereas the UM are called Angels of Death for no discernible reason other than their Marines, who do literally nothing but practice being Marines.

Dark Angels have their Unforgiven hunt for the Fallen, and still maintain their Legion ways, and wear robes and are actually KNIGHTS, instead of SOLDIERS. They also have their induction into the Inner Circle, as well as the Higher Mysteries (though I'm unsure if this has fallen out of use, it was there in Fallen Angels and I see no reason for it to be abandoned). Whereas the Ultramarines are soldiers, plain and simple. They are soldiers for the sake of being soldiers, and the only ones of them that aren't just soldiers are Calgar and the Librarians, who are practically forced to be more than soldiers.

In conclusion, the Ultramarines are a great Chapter with a long string of victories, but they're soldiers above all, and have all character ground out of them. If the Ultras do have any more to them than blue marines with a cool shoulder patch and a Roman name, please elaborate and enlighten me in my ignorance.

I misunderstood what you meant, I thought you meant like 'Ultramarines act like they're better than everyone else when the only thing that makes them Ultramarines is that they have blue armour...' And I just meant that the only reason a SW is a SW is that they happened to be born on Fenris etc etc, sorry.

There is more there before the heresy, but they are plain in 40k. Although I'll say again that isn't neccessarily a bad thing, but I can see why you might find it dull.

Also, I will explain the hypocritical thing, since you asked, here we go:

The Ultramarines are massive hypocrites because a.) they have what I've dubbed "lapdog Chapters", like the Genesis Chapter, who essentially subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines and have even been known to put their Companies under the command of Ultramarines Captains, b.) They have essentially hundreds of Regiments of Guard under their command (or at least, Calgar does) and c.) they have deviated from the Codex with their Tyrranic War Veterans, who are stated to be outside of the Ten Companies. Now I shall elaborate.

The whole purpose of the Second Founding was to break up the Legions and prevent a second Heresy, right? right? Wrong! The Ultramarines currently have quite a few Chapters - the Genesis comes to mind - that will willingly follow the Ultramarines just about anywhere, and who would easily join the Ultramarines in open rebellion. These Chapters obey Calgar's commands, and are essentially Calgar's little Legion, in that they will do just about ANYTHING HE ASKS.

The Ultramarines also have several hundred regiments of Ultramar Auxilia, which are essentially Imperial Guard under the command of Marneus Calgar. They are

...trained with extreme discipline and dedication,[1a] reaching to standards expected from Space Marines, as such they are considered much more competent than the average PDF.[1b] While Ultramar is exempt of the normal tithes of manpower expected of the worlds in the Imperium, the Ultramar Auxilia maintain many regiments ready for deployment to locations outside of Ultramar[i].[2a]

This is essentially several hundred FULL REGIMENTS of Imperial Guard ready to deploy alongside the Ultramarines at any engagement, who are also ready to fly out to the defense of any system in the Segmentum Ultima - all under the command of Marneus Calgar

The Ultramarines have also defied the Codex's edicts with their Tyrranic War Veterans, who are stated to be outside of the original ten Companies. Now, this last one I'm less sure on, so if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.


Now, these are two strong reasons for the Ultramarines to be massive fething hypocrites, and one mid-strength one. Take of it what you will.



Also, as far as the Second Founding goes, it is my belief that the Rowboat broke up the Legions in order to protect the Loyalists from Traitor Legions that he was sheltering, and didn't want them to suffer for their lineage, and thus just said that they were Ultramarines, when, in fact, they were not. when I figured this out, I gained a lot of respect for Guilliman, and I no longer consider him a generic Primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I misunderstood what you meant, I thought you meant like 'Ultramarines act like they're better than everyone else when the only thing that makes them Ultramarines is that they have blue armour...' And I just meant that the only reason a SW is a SW is that they happened to be born on Fenris etc etc, sorry.

There is more there before the heresy, but they are plain in 40k. Although I'll say again that isn't neccessarily a bad thing, but I can see why you might find it dull.

Space Wolves have a lot of character, poorly written though it is, and their wolfyness and Vikingness is what makes them Space Wolves. Oh, yes, and I can see why you thought I was getting all worked up in my posts. Actually, I'm just enjoying myself; I love arguing.

 dusara217 wrote:

The whole purpose of the Second Founding was to break up the Legions and prevent a second Heresy, right? right? Wrong! The Ultramarines currently have quite a few Chapters - the Genesis comes to mind - that will willingly follow the Ultramarines just about anywhere, and who would easily join the Ultramarines in open rebellion. These Chapters obey Calgar's commands, and are essentially Calgar's little Legion, in that they will do just about ANYTHING HE ASKS.

Versus the other hundreds of Chapters which so not dogmatically follow the UM. Only the Genesis Chapter have this relationship with UM. Many 3rd and later Founding Chapters won't have such a relationship and might only see the UM as a role model - nothing more. Whilst the UM are the primary benefactor of gene-seed, it doesn't mean that all of these chapters are more loyal to Calgar than the Emperor. And besides, it was in now way forced that the Genesis Chapter obey the UM: that is their choice.
But hey, Ward's writing.

The Ultramarines also have several hundred regiments of Ultramar Auxilia, which are essentially Imperial Guard under the command of Marneus Calgar. They are

...trained with extreme discipline and dedication,[1a] reaching to standards expected from Space Marines, as such they are considered much more competent than the average PDF.[1b] While Ultramar is exempt of the normal tithes of manpower expected of the worlds in the Imperium, the Ultramar Auxilia maintain many regiments ready for deployment to locations outside of Ultramar[i].[2a]

This is essentially several hundred FULL REGIMENTS of Imperial Guard ready to deploy alongside the Ultramarines at any engagement, who are also ready to fly out to the defense of any system in the Segmentum Ultima - all under the command of Marneus Calgar.

I believe that nothing in the Codex says this is bad. In fact, I believe that Guilliman probably encouraged other to do the same. It's just that Ultramar is a very prosperous area, so they have a lot of resources to use. Again, this army has no real way of getting off world, so couldn't really fo an effective campaigning army. Many chapters could've created a force like this, but the UM have a flair for logistics and organisation.

The Ultramarines have also defied the Codex's edicts with their Tyrranic War Veterans, who are stated to be outside of the original ten Companies. Now, this last one I'm less sure on, so if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.

Actually, I though the Tyrannical War Vets were just Marines who had special training/experience in fighting Tyranids that were already part of their designated squads: not actually taken out of their original groups to form a new one. As far as I know, anyway.

Also, as far as the Second Founding goes, it is my belief that the Rowboat broke up the Legions in order to protect the Loyalists from Traitor Legions that he was sheltering, and didn't want them to suffer for their lineage, and thus just said that they were Ultramarines, when, in fact, they were not. when I figured this out, I gained a lot of respect for Guilliman, and I no longer consider him a generic Primarch.

Interesting concept, never though of it that way before!

Actually, I'm just enjoying myself; I love arguing.

You and me both!

I think most UM successors don't see a difference between honoring Guilliman, Calgar, and the UM tradition on the one hand and honoring the Imperium on the other hand, except perhaps inasmuch as the subject of the Ecclesiarchy comes up. SM seem to hew to the Imperial Truth by and large.

Salamanders! A chapter dedicated to helping people and not being a clandestine evil chapter that kills there on brothers (Angels of darkness) or almost start wars with other chapters (black templars) or have a stuck up primarch who cant even control his on troops (Master of the first) or have a chapter master who needs to be in a pissing contest with everyone (Pandorax).

Also like wolves so I am between those two.

Least fav: Dark angels

Raven Guard because I like the super sneaky beakies. while other chapters fight in formation they attack and withdraw!

too bad not a lot of books about them, but I can say that Shadow captain is a fairly good book for the price.

 Manchu wrote:
I think most UM successors don't see a difference between honoring Guilliman, Calgar, and the UM tradition on the one hand and honoring the Imperium on the other hand, except perhaps inasmuch as the subject of the Ecclesiarchy comes up. SM seem to hew to the Imperial Truth by and large.

I don't mind that interpretation around the UM-based chapters. Its minded when it come to to the not UM-based chapters on the other hand with their own traditions and customs. If you want a canon example about Space Marines and ehm other warriors. Go for the Lone Wolves comic. That showed me a lot of how the Space Wolves are like and excellent proof about how they can tiptoe around God-Emperor. I can think most of the nicer chapters doing it like this.

I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

Since you didn't elect to quote me when answering to my post I'm unsure of your meaning now, especially as this is a post that can be in that table with 30X. Made me loose track, and I'm quite lazy when reading.

Of course many chapters follow the UM without question, but they have a dark counterpart in what was formerly known as the Astral Claws (the Space Marines of course, as the Astral Claws has new masters or master now). And they revere Empy as the ultimate human ever. That is if I interpret the fluff correctly, but again your answer sort of confused me.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agree extermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

That's semi true, gav thorpe has done all the heresy related stuff (one novel, one audio book, one short story and two novellas) but he's nowhere near as good as ADB or the god that is abnett. The sad fact is that except for ADB and McNeil, all the other author mained book series are really bad. The salamanders series was horrible, as was the blood angels, I was extremely disappointed to see them write hours heresy material for those two chapters. McNeil as I've said falters on the Raven Guard but does a very good job at writing ultra marines and iron warriors.

Honestly they made the raptors exactly how the Raven Guard should have been

Have you actually read the Ultramarines and Iron Warrior books? McNeil portrays both as incompetent stooges instead of the masters of war they're supposed to be. Especially the Ultramarines.

I have, I enjoyed them because they weren't "masters of war", they made mistakes and weren't mary sues without having salamnders level of angst in the novels

@Beaviz81:

You responded to this:

 Manchu wrote:
I think most UM successors don't see a difference between honoring Guilliman, Calgar, and the UM tradition on the one hand and honoring the Imperium on the other hand, except perhaps inasmuch as the subject of the Ecclesiarchy comes up. SM seem to hew to the Imperial Truth by and large.

with this:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I don't mind that interpretation around the UM-based chapters. Its minded when it come to to the not UM-based chapters on the other hand with their own traditions and customs. If you want a canon example about Space Marines and ehm other warriors. Go for the Lone Wolves comic. That showed me a lot of how the Space Wolves are like and excellent proof about how they can tiptoe around God-Emperor. I can think most of the nicer chapters doing it like this.

which seems like a non sequitur to me.

What do you mean by "interpretation around the UM-based chapters"? Are you saying other chapters worship the Emperor? I think that might even be true of at least one UM successor. I really just have no idea what you meant or how it responds to what I posted.

You seem to misunderstand on purpose Manchu. I mean I'm okay with your interpretation until it comes to non-UM-based chapters. I never questioned their ability to revere Empy. And as said they goose-step around Empy as an Abnett-comic has proved.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Raven Guard because I like the super sneaky beakies. while other chapters fight in formation they attack and withdraw!

too bad not a lot of books about them, but I can say that Shadow captain is a fairly good book for the price.

It's unfortunately not a good book; the captain is the epitome of stereotyping, he's so stealthy and sneaky he melta bombs all of their jetbikes because wraith slipping is just ridiculous

I have found the Iron hands to be surprisingly very interesting and a chapter that I'll hold on to for quite some time. When I first read about them, I thought they had a bit of a cheese factor for wanting to replace organic parts, that are a magnificent feat of bio engineering, for gears and piston parts. However, considering the personality of their primarch, and the tempers of forged within their geneseed, it added enough of duality to really set them apart than other chapters. Here are a few other reasons why I like the Iron Hands:

1. Ferrus seems rather human for a primarch (aside from the whole dragon slaying and iron arms bit), may be a bit brash, and had quite the tragedy befall him (makes him more intriguing)
2. The 30k version of Iron hands I feel, are a bit more what I like than the Raukaan fluff - cold and calculating yet still capable to exhibit acts of compassion & anger. The ridiculous over the top 'We need to express our emotions crap' to get away from chaos, seemed really really dumb.
3. Close ties with the Mechanicum/Mechanicus
4. Believe in the omnissiah - better theology than the imperial truth or the god emprah
5 Chapter name isn't something to cringe at saying, particularly when explaining it to new players [ I play the ultramarines.... or Salamanders.... yea they sound kind of queer]

Ultramarines and Salamanders aren't bad names. And I'd use a different word than queer...

Iron Hands is a bit of a silly name I think, but only because their Primarch is called Iron Hand (Ferrus Manus) and he has metal hands...

 ImAGeek wrote:
Ultramarines and Salamanders aren't bad names. And I'd use a different word than queer...

Iron Hands is a bit of a silly name I think, but only because their Primarch is called Iron Hand (Ferrus Manus) and he has metal hands...

I use to play Ultramarines So i feel entitled that I can crap on them if I want to

I still plan on getting a detachment of them for 30k, perhaps even Rowboat Girlyman himself (when FW releases him). I've got a soft spot for them because of their deeper Roman roots and Guilliman is a pretty neat character.

But yea.... 'Ultramarines' is a bit over the top - its got that myopic 80s teenage homebrew vibe that you can only take so serious. Anything with 'ultra' as a prefix, probably suffers from this... its just the way it is, I'm sorry :( I guess it is like the word queer; a stigma attached to it. However, I'll still like them anyway.

Iron Hands on the hand (Hah) has more of a masculine ring to it because, well.... its got freakin iron in it... and iron in warhammer is masculine.

Seriously though, Iron Hands does have a more threatening sound to it, imo. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be hit with an iron hand over just some 'plain' primarchs hand....

Guilliman punched off a Word Bearers head in space above Calth, just sayin

I don't mind Ultramarines. I don't think its that silly. I don't mind Iron Hands either I just think it's overdone, the iron hands lead by iron hand with his iron hands...

His name is also Iron Hands if you translate from Latin.

Yeah I already said that

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guilliman punched off a Word Bearers head in space above Calth, just sayin

I don't mind Ultramarines. I don't think its that silly. I don't mind Iron Hands either I just think it's overdone, the iron hands lead by iron hand with his iron hands...

Heheh

Oh please know, the following are just a few playful jibes: At least Ferrus and his astartes all have some deeper, literal consistency with their names, they all really do have iron hands; Ferris and his silver surfer hands, and his marines - they have to replace their left hands with bionic ones... just saying.

All the ultramarines have is color consistency with their name....

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guilliman punched off a Word Bearers head in space above Calth, just sayin

I don't mind Ultramarines. I don't think its that silly. I don't mind Iron Hands either I just think it's overdone, the iron hands lead by iron hand with his iron hands...

40k, especially some of the oldest lore, has a lot of truely silly names. it sounds like bad uber 80s stuff cause thats where it started.

I know. Doesn't make it any less silly.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I know. Doesn't make it any less silly.

yeah but we'd miss it if GW introduced 8th edition and said "ya know what? we're removing the silly 80s from the game"

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

Uh in 40k, practically the entire arm of the Adeptus Astartes worships the Emperor. In 30k BL paints the imperial truth to be all about secular atheism.

kveldulf wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

Uh in 40k, practically the entire arm of the Adeptus Astartes worships the Emperor. In 30k BL paints the imperial truth to be all about secular atheism.

The catch is on that "as a god" bit. Only a fair few chapters follow the tenets of the Ecclesiarchy. The rest worship the Emperor as lord and rightful master of mankind, but not as a god. The difference is subtle, but noticeable - for instance, Space Marines appoint their own Chaplains to look after the spiritual health and traditions of their Chapter, but those are neither part of the Ministorum nor trained by the Imperial Cult.

That's actually a problem of lazy use of English. The proper object of the verb to worship is a deity. SM generally venerate the Emperor.

Space Wolves, 'cause they take no gak.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I voted Iron Hands, but Clan Raukaan really butchered them bad lore-wise.

My secondary would probably be Dark Angels or Salamanders.

It isn't Clan Raukaan that butchered them lore wise. It is the codex writers, namely the man who shall not be named, who did that most recently. Iron Hands have been losing uniqueness every edition for a while now. I voted for the Iron Hands too because I think before all the retcon BS they have suffered they were/are one of the most unique chapters. It is a shame they are continually being dumped on.

What's wrong with Clan Raukaan?

 Manchu wrote:
What's wrong with Clan Raukaan?

It (the supplement, not the clan) either mistook or retconned a lot of existing Iron Hands lore, reducing the uniqueness of the chapter from "Codex Astartes? What's that?" to "Codex compliant, but..."

Examples?

 Manchu wrote:
Examples?

they no longer use terminator armor on their sergents, just for one example. but IMHO that's a lore tidbit that NEEDED correction. it sounds kinda cool but on the table top wouldn't really work right.

Raven Guard.

I like their stealthy yet brutal hand to hand approach to combat.
Small groups or individuals also have more freedom on the battlefield when it comes to making decisions when compared to other chapters who seem to be a lot more rigid in following orders from the higher ups to the T, this is because the Raven Guard understands that war can be very fluid and priorities can shift at a moments notice.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Examples?

they no longer use terminator armor on their sergents, just for one example. but IMHO that's a lore tidbit that NEEDED correction. it sounds kinda cool but on the table top wouldn't really work right.

Why did it need correcting when Space Wolves can do the same thing in the current game? We also lost our unique generic HQ the Forgefather (that was kind of a mix of techmarine and chaplain) for a half baked wannabe called a Master of the Forge that everyone gets. Some of our special rules don't make sense either. We are supposed to be a chapter of few Dreadnoughts yet we can field up to 6. I feel 30k does a better job of representing us in a lot of ways (i like the reduction of str vs shooting that 30k iron hands get as well. ssems to fit better than FNP 6+).

^harkens back to the good ol days when no one but scars (and ravenwing) played bike based armies. Now everyone's like, "Those rules though."

I like the Stoic-ness of the Imperial Fists. you know, the take no crap, defend Terra, Build up your defence and never let you take it of it all.

cant go wrong with that.

amazing to see so many people like the dark angels though. they never seem to be a popular in game force. Possibly due to the "failings" of the codex people seem to go on about.