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I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

Since you didn't elect to quote me when answering to my post I'm unsure of your meaning now, especially as this is a post that can be in that table with 30X. Made me loose track, and I'm quite lazy when reading.

Of course many chapters follow the UM without question, but they have a dark counterpart in what was formerly known as the Astral Claws (the Space Marines of course, as the Astral Claws has new masters or master now). And they revere Empy as the ultimate human ever. That is if I interpret the fluff correctly, but again your answer sort of confused me.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agree extermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

That's semi true, gav thorpe has done all the heresy related stuff (one novel, one audio book, one short story and two novellas) but he's nowhere near as good as ADB or the god that is abnett. The sad fact is that except for ADB and McNeil, all the other author mained book series are really bad. The salamanders series was horrible, as was the blood angels, I was extremely disappointed to see them write hours heresy material for those two chapters. McNeil as I've said falters on the Raven Guard but does a very good job at writing ultra marines and iron warriors.

Honestly they made the raptors exactly how the Raven Guard should have been

Have you actually read the Ultramarines and Iron Warrior books? McNeil portrays both as incompetent stooges instead of the masters of war they're supposed to be. Especially the Ultramarines.

I have, I enjoyed them because they weren't "masters of war", they made mistakes and weren't mary sues without having salamnders level of angst in the novels

@Beaviz81:

You responded to this:

 Manchu wrote:
I think most UM successors don't see a difference between honoring Guilliman, Calgar, and the UM tradition on the one hand and honoring the Imperium on the other hand, except perhaps inasmuch as the subject of the Ecclesiarchy comes up. SM seem to hew to the Imperial Truth by and large.

with this:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I don't mind that interpretation around the UM-based chapters. Its minded when it come to to the not UM-based chapters on the other hand with their own traditions and customs. If you want a canon example about Space Marines and ehm other warriors. Go for the Lone Wolves comic. That showed me a lot of how the Space Wolves are like and excellent proof about how they can tiptoe around God-Emperor. I can think most of the nicer chapters doing it like this.

which seems like a non sequitur to me.

What do you mean by "interpretation around the UM-based chapters"? Are you saying other chapters worship the Emperor? I think that might even be true of at least one UM successor. I really just have no idea what you meant or how it responds to what I posted.

You seem to misunderstand on purpose Manchu. I mean I'm okay with your interpretation until it comes to non-UM-based chapters. I never questioned their ability to revere Empy. And as said they goose-step around Empy as an Abnett-comic has proved.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Raven Guard because I like the super sneaky beakies. while other chapters fight in formation they attack and withdraw!

too bad not a lot of books about them, but I can say that Shadow captain is a fairly good book for the price.

It's unfortunately not a good book; the captain is the epitome of stereotyping, he's so stealthy and sneaky he melta bombs all of their jetbikes because wraith slipping is just ridiculous

I have found the Iron hands to be surprisingly very interesting and a chapter that I'll hold on to for quite some time. When I first read about them, I thought they had a bit of a cheese factor for wanting to replace organic parts, that are a magnificent feat of bio engineering, for gears and piston parts. However, considering the personality of their primarch, and the tempers of forged within their geneseed, it added enough of duality to really set them apart than other chapters. Here are a few other reasons why I like the Iron Hands:

1. Ferrus seems rather human for a primarch (aside from the whole dragon slaying and iron arms bit), may be a bit brash, and had quite the tragedy befall him (makes him more intriguing)
2. The 30k version of Iron hands I feel, are a bit more what I like than the Raukaan fluff - cold and calculating yet still capable to exhibit acts of compassion & anger. The ridiculous over the top 'We need to express our emotions crap' to get away from chaos, seemed really really dumb.
3. Close ties with the Mechanicum/Mechanicus
4. Believe in the omnissiah - better theology than the imperial truth or the god emprah
5 Chapter name isn't something to cringe at saying, particularly when explaining it to new players [ I play the ultramarines.... or Salamanders.... yea they sound kind of queer]

Ultramarines and Salamanders aren't bad names. And I'd use a different word than queer...

Iron Hands is a bit of a silly name I think, but only because their Primarch is called Iron Hand (Ferrus Manus) and he has metal hands...

 ImAGeek wrote:
Ultramarines and Salamanders aren't bad names. And I'd use a different word than queer...

Iron Hands is a bit of a silly name I think, but only because their Primarch is called Iron Hand (Ferrus Manus) and he has metal hands...

I use to play Ultramarines So i feel entitled that I can crap on them if I want to

I still plan on getting a detachment of them for 30k, perhaps even Rowboat Girlyman himself (when FW releases him). I've got a soft spot for them because of their deeper Roman roots and Guilliman is a pretty neat character.

But yea.... 'Ultramarines' is a bit over the top - its got that myopic 80s teenage homebrew vibe that you can only take so serious. Anything with 'ultra' as a prefix, probably suffers from this... its just the way it is, I'm sorry :( I guess it is like the word queer; a stigma attached to it. However, I'll still like them anyway.

Iron Hands on the hand (Hah) has more of a masculine ring to it because, well.... its got freakin iron in it... and iron in warhammer is masculine.

Seriously though, Iron Hands does have a more threatening sound to it, imo. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be hit with an iron hand over just some 'plain' primarchs hand....

Guilliman punched off a Word Bearers head in space above Calth, just sayin

I don't mind Ultramarines. I don't think its that silly. I don't mind Iron Hands either I just think it's overdone, the iron hands lead by iron hand with his iron hands...

His name is also Iron Hands if you translate from Latin.

Yeah I already said that

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guilliman punched off a Word Bearers head in space above Calth, just sayin

I don't mind Ultramarines. I don't think its that silly. I don't mind Iron Hands either I just think it's overdone, the iron hands lead by iron hand with his iron hands...

Heheh

Oh please know, the following are just a few playful jibes: At least Ferrus and his astartes all have some deeper, literal consistency with their names, they all really do have iron hands; Ferris and his silver surfer hands, and his marines - they have to replace their left hands with bionic ones... just saying.

All the ultramarines have is color consistency with their name....

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guilliman punched off a Word Bearers head in space above Calth, just sayin

I don't mind Ultramarines. I don't think its that silly. I don't mind Iron Hands either I just think it's overdone, the iron hands lead by iron hand with his iron hands...

40k, especially some of the oldest lore, has a lot of truely silly names. it sounds like bad uber 80s stuff cause thats where it started.

I know. Doesn't make it any less silly.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I know. Doesn't make it any less silly.

yeah but we'd miss it if GW introduced 8th edition and said "ya know what? we're removing the silly 80s from the game"

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

Uh in 40k, practically the entire arm of the Adeptus Astartes worships the Emperor. In 30k BL paints the imperial truth to be all about secular atheism.

kveldulf wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell, most chapters do not worship the Emperor as a god.

What I mean is, the UM successors don't need to make a choice between loyalty to their UM heritage and loyalty to the IoM. Those are the same things.

Uh in 40k, practically the entire arm of the Adeptus Astartes worships the Emperor. In 30k BL paints the imperial truth to be all about secular atheism.

The catch is on that "as a god" bit. Only a fair few chapters follow the tenets of the Ecclesiarchy. The rest worship the Emperor as lord and rightful master of mankind, but not as a god. The difference is subtle, but noticeable - for instance, Space Marines appoint their own Chaplains to look after the spiritual health and traditions of their Chapter, but those are neither part of the Ministorum nor trained by the Imperial Cult.

That's actually a problem of lazy use of English. The proper object of the verb to worship is a deity. SM generally venerate the Emperor.

Space Wolves, 'cause they take no gak.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I voted Iron Hands, but Clan Raukaan really butchered them bad lore-wise.

My secondary would probably be Dark Angels or Salamanders.

It isn't Clan Raukaan that butchered them lore wise. It is the codex writers, namely the man who shall not be named, who did that most recently. Iron Hands have been losing uniqueness every edition for a while now. I voted for the Iron Hands too because I think before all the retcon BS they have suffered they were/are one of the most unique chapters. It is a shame they are continually being dumped on.

What's wrong with Clan Raukaan?

 Manchu wrote:
What's wrong with Clan Raukaan?

It (the supplement, not the clan) either mistook or retconned a lot of existing Iron Hands lore, reducing the uniqueness of the chapter from "Codex Astartes? What's that?" to "Codex compliant, but..."

Examples?

 Manchu wrote:
Examples?

they no longer use terminator armor on their sergents, just for one example. but IMHO that's a lore tidbit that NEEDED correction. it sounds kinda cool but on the table top wouldn't really work right.

Raven Guard.

I like their stealthy yet brutal hand to hand approach to combat.
Small groups or individuals also have more freedom on the battlefield when it comes to making decisions when compared to other chapters who seem to be a lot more rigid in following orders from the higher ups to the T, this is because the Raven Guard understands that war can be very fluid and priorities can shift at a moments notice.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Examples?

they no longer use terminator armor on their sergents, just for one example. but IMHO that's a lore tidbit that NEEDED correction. it sounds kinda cool but on the table top wouldn't really work right.

Why did it need correcting when Space Wolves can do the same thing in the current game? We also lost our unique generic HQ the Forgefather (that was kind of a mix of techmarine and chaplain) for a half baked wannabe called a Master of the Forge that everyone gets. Some of our special rules don't make sense either. We are supposed to be a chapter of few Dreadnoughts yet we can field up to 6. I feel 30k does a better job of representing us in a lot of ways (i like the reduction of str vs shooting that 30k iron hands get as well. ssems to fit better than FNP 6+).

^harkens back to the good ol days when no one but scars (and ravenwing) played bike based armies. Now everyone's like, "Those rules though."

I like the Stoic-ness of the Imperial Fists. you know, the take no crap, defend Terra, Build up your defence and never let you take it of it all.

cant go wrong with that.

amazing to see so many people like the dark angels though. they never seem to be a popular in game force. Possibly due to the "failings" of the codex people seem to go on about.