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The Sallies are unsullied, no mean feat in the grimdark. The galaxy would be a great place if it were ruled by Sallies and UMs.

If ruled by them with their Primarchs, would be even better.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

Corrections:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an Ultramarines relic, the only known one in the galaxy. I'm fairly sure every chapter has a relic weapon named after them/ their realm.

The Godwyn pattern bolter is actually the standard. Never heard of the Ultima pattern at all.

The Terminus Ultra is no bigger than a standard Land Raider. And is extensively used by the Ultramarines. Also, see the Land Raider Crusader, named after the Black Templars.

Yep. They really aren't as bad as the Space Wolves on the naming regard.

Actually you are quite mistaken. So were I, there are numerous patterns of bolters named after them. They are almost Red Bull in space naming everything after them. And they have a huge frakking tank named after them, i mean a Land Raider is quite the tank.. Well just be happy they didn't name a class of Titan or Battleship after themselves. They named a Segmentum after themselves. Seriously, I wouldn't try to defend this point if I were you as no other chapter nor legion has done that.

The Godwyn Ultima-pattern is used by the Minotaurs.

You have Mark II and III Ultima-patterns. Plus Ultra-pattern Mark VII. And it seems bolt-pistols were made of Ultima-pattern as well as the Ryza-Ultima-pattern comes to mind. I hope you made this argument out of ignorance and not in order to conceal the truth.

Ahem. Land Raider Crusader. I wonder who that could be named after... (HINT: IT'S THE BLACK TEMPLARS)
Also, I don't see anywhere that the Terminus Ultra was ever developed or even named after/by the Ultramarines?

Ultima Segmentum was named before the Ultramarines arrival, and actually implies "Ultimate", as in last, or largest. It is both: furthest from Terra (so later discovered) and the largest Segmentum.

Again, we have no idea if the Ultima Pattern bolter was named after the UM, as it could be a standard pattern in the Ultima Segmentum, or from a Forge World. Or does this mean the Phobos pattern bolter is named after the world of Phobos and the Imperial Guardsmen that may wield it? Also, it is nowhere stated that the Ultramarines use these weapons. Why would the Ultramarines name a weapon but not use it?

As a whole, Ultima or Ultra- fits in well with the faux-latin thing the Imperium has going on, possibly meaning "Final", "Best", "Largest", "Last" or anything like that. Not specifically named after the UM.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So what bad experience did you have with UM then?

More fanbois as the UM only exist on paper, tabletop and in a really crappy cartoon.

For the summary, just read what me and ImAGeek has discussed over this post.

Plus there are fans of Matt Ward.

except we don't see any "fanbois" saying anything particularly objectionable. Just that the Ultramarines are one of the best chapters and are seen as almost a model for other codex chapters to follow (which given all the history should be no suprise. the Ultramarines are after all THE codex chapter) this isn't objectionable. It's stated across multiple sources. I think it's pretty obvious that GW's intent is that the "big 4" are proably seen as the best space Marine chapters out there. And of the big 4, the Dark Angels and Space Wolves have some issues with authorities, the Blood Angels have their issues, the Ultramarines are proably seen as the most steady and reliable of the big 4, which to the IoM counts for a LOT. Also most UM fans are not just random Matt Ward fanboys. we play Ultramarines for many reasons, perhaps we enjoyed Graham McNeils novels, perhaps we've played ultramarines since second edition, when we remember that it was Codex: Ultramarines, not Codex: Space Marines, Maybe we like blue and gold? Maybe we just like people so good at space Marineing they wrote the book on it? Or yeah maybe we DID find something inspirational in the 5th edition codex, (why is it that ultramarines are the target of hate here? Ward also wrote codex Blood Angels, quick let's pick on the blood angels for being a buncha whiny Ward fan boys! ) Ward wrote a LOT of codexes in 5th edition if we're gonna hate anyone who likes armies he's touched that means blood angels, ultramarines, grey knights, necrons, maybe we shouldn't bash an army just cause Ward wrote the 'dex for it. Mkay?

Honestly of codexes I've read the space marine 'dex was proably the most reasonable of the Ward 'dexes fluff wise (note: I have not read codex blood angels 5E) I mean the necrons had a lot of silly stuff in it, (I'm not talking the reboot which IMHO was needed) and grey knights.............. oyboy...

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agreextermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agreextermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I called you a fanboy because the gist of what you said was "Ultramarines are the best and have no faults and all other Chapters want to be Ultras". I have always found the Ultramarines to be a great Chapter, but it has very little character to it aside from some Roman-sounding names.

I respectfully disagree, the character is there, it's just hard to find for a few reasons. the first is that as the "poster boy" chapter for the vanilla codex Ultramarines share page time with well... everyone else. IMHO the 6th edition codex which is notably thicker finally did some justice there, but it's worth noting that the dark angels codex has 26 pages devoted to Dark Angels history vs the Ultramarines having only 10 or so in Codex Space Marines. And then a few pages in a dataslate, there's a simply LOT less page count for the individual chapter. Even when you account for the increased page count in Codex: SMs (space Wolves meanwhile have the most codex info on them, possing a full codex unencumbered by any sucessor chapters and a supplement)

so you have less information, and what we do know is a little more subtle then the wolves and blood angels whom are pretty "in your face" about what makes them unique.

The Ultramarines are literally generic Marines. They're the Poster Boys because they represent the Marine-ey-est Marines of all Marinehood. They follow the Codex Astartes to the letter (though they diverge from it in several ways and are total fething hypocrites, but that's not what we're arguing here, so I'll leave that be), they have generic troops, generic leaders, generic tactics, generic everything. Almost everything about them is quite sensible, yes, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the only thing that makes Ultramarines Ultramarines is some blue armour and the fact that they were born Ultramarian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where has there been any Ultramarine hate? I just re-read the last two pages and saw absolutely zero Ultra-hate, unless you count me calling them a vanilla Chapter.

The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

Again, there's nothing wrong with being vanilla and well rounded. If you find that boring, fair enough, but intrinsically being 'generic' isn't a bad thing.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agree extermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

That's semi true, gav thorpe has done all the heresy related stuff (one novel, one audio book, one short story and two novellas) but he's nowhere near as good as ADB or the god that is abnett. The sad fact is that except for ADB and McNeil, all the other author mained book series are really bad. The salamanders series was horrible, as was the blood angels, I was extremely disappointed to see them write hours heresy material for those two chapters. McNeil as I've said falters on the Raven Guard but does a very good job at writing ultra marines and iron warriors.

Honestly they made the raptors exactly how the Raven Guard should have been

 ImAGeek wrote:
The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

Again, there's nothing wrong with being vanilla and well rounded. If you find that boring, fair enough, but intrinsically being 'generic' isn't a bad thing.

You have to admit there's some truth in calling the Ultramarines generic.

The Blood Angels have the Black Rage and Red Thirst thing, the Space Wolves have gene-seed that gives them animalistic features and also have the Curse of the Wolfen problem, the DA have the Order/Inner Circle thing from their days on Caliban, as well as their terrible secret with the Fallen (and the penchant for wearing robes ). Plus they blew up their homeworld and actually fly around on what's left. Come on, that's friggin cool.

These chapters are also organized differently since they don't follow the Codex Astartes to the letter (Grand Companies, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Deathwing/Ravenwing, DA being organized like a legion, etc).

So yea, some of that uniqueness is the price to pay when you are THE Codex Astartes chapter.

Personally I don't hate the Ultramarines but I do find them rather boring and dogmatic. And I feel like they get their screen time at the expense of other First Founding chapters. AND there's their mini-Imperium around Macragge and Spiritual Liege thing, which does make them seem very hypocritical.

I didn't say they weren't generic. I said that being generic isn't necessarily a bad thing. Read the bottom part of what I said.

Why is Ultramar hypocritical?

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean that's okay in one off cases (I adore Sharrowkyn from the HH novels and you pretty much described him except he uses two power swords not LCs) but in general they're more sensible. I don't suppose you've read their fluff from the Extermination book? It's pretty excellent, as is most of that book, and the other 2.

McNeil unfortunately tropes all the RG he writes into the same thing, in the ultramarines series all the RG have jump packs and either know super secret combat moves, or are super infiltrate-y and have lightning claws. I certainly enjoyed sharrowkyn, but he's still pretty much the ultimate raven guard stereotype. I've read all the raven guard fluff except for one or two exclusives and I do agree extermination has some of the most well rounded fluff for them

Part of the reason why the Raven Guard suffer so is that nobody has done a true series on them. An author hasn't picked up and done a trilogy or greater amount of books, like what ADB does for the Night Lords, or Nick Kyme for the Salamanders. So they're left around languishing from underdevelopment.

That's semi true, gav thorpe has done all the heresy related stuff (one novel, one audio book, one short story and two novellas) but he's nowhere near as good as ADB or the god that is abnett. The sad fact is that except for ADB and McNeil, all the other author mained book series are really bad. The salamanders series was horrible, as was the blood angels, I was extremely disappointed to see them write hours heresy material for those two chapters. McNeil as I've said falters on the Raven Guard but does a very good job at writing ultra marines and iron warriors.

Honestly they made the raptors exactly how the Raven Guard should have been

Have you actually read the Ultramarines and Iron Warrior books? McNeil portrays both as incompetent stooges instead of the masters of war they're supposed to be. Especially the Ultramarines.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't say they weren't generic. I said that being generic isn't necessarily a bad thing. Read the bottom part of what I said.

Why is Ultramar hypocritical?

Woah, calm down there. I know you didn't say they weren't generic, I was pointing out that there's more to it than

 ImAGeek wrote:
The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

because that's simply not true.

The Ultramar and Spiritual Liege thing are hypocritical because the whole point of breaking the legions into chapters was to reduce their power, not to mention it was their Primarch who demanded it and who was willing to call Dorn a traitor simply because he refused (and Dorn was there at the Battle of Terra whereas Gulliman wasn't! The nerve!). Instead, you have the Ultramarines running their own empire and their successors ready to listen to their 'spiritual liege,' though to what extent is debatable I guess.

They were also by far the most numerous at the time so obviously splitting the legions would result in most marines becoming Ultramarines successors... that sneaky bastard.

I mean look at this way. Imagine we're the Primarchs and we all have our respective legions. All our legions have been reduced to waaaay below strength. The second most intact legion at this point (the DA) just had their homeworld (read: recruiting world) blown up. Then I come in and say "Hey guys, I have an idea! How about we DON'T rebuild our legions and just split what we have right now, ehhhhh?"

Because that's pretty much happened lol. Guillman also managed to make himself a Lord Commander, basically getting on the good side of the Council of Terra and calling all who opposed him traitors. The Imperial Fists were even fired upon! Heresy!

The splitting of the legions, I see it the other way. The Ultramarines were sacrificing the most by splitting their legion, because they had the biggest legion. Yeah they'd have the most successors, but successors are free to go and do their own thing, it's not like they're still commanded by the UM. So the UM actually had he most to lose by doing so.

And they aren't really running an empire, Ultramar is still part of the Imperium, they're more like running a section of the Imperium.

And the reasoning behind splitting the legions is pretty sound. It prevents another Heresy, because if a chapter falls, they have a fraction of the strength of a legion to use against the imperium.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The splitting of the legions, I see it the other way. The Ultramarines were sacrificing the most by splitting their legion, because they had the biggest legion. Yeah they'd have the most successors, but successors are free to go and do their own thing, it's not like they're still commanded by the UM. So the UM actually had he most to lose by doing so.

And they aren't really running an empire, Ultramar is still part of the Imperium, they're more like running a section of the Imperium.

And the reasoning behind splitting the legions is pretty sound. It prevents another Heresy, because if a chapter falls, they have a fraction of the strength of a legion to use against the imperium.

Yea, it all depends on how you look at it. The reasoning is sound but there's different ways to interpret it. It also depends on how the fluff is written. The way Matt Ward wrote it didn't exactly make it sound like they were making a big sacrifice, instead making it sound like they entirely took over what being a Space Marine should mean and making all other founding chapters "fringe."

Yeah but... Mat Ward...

Land Raider Ultima being stupidly Ultramarines (despite that being a segmentum name, not after the Chapter) Really?

Land Raider Crusader from Black Templars, Baal Predator from BA, Dark Talon and Dark Shroud from Dark Angels, Stormwolf and Stormfang gunships from Space Wolves.....

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah but... Mat Ward...

Well... yea

Anyway, the Ultramarines themselves are fine, it's just that the setting would be more interesting if the successor chapters were more evenly divided. That's why the Horus Heresy is so interesting; you have 18 legions and their Primarchs at each others throats. Now it's more like Ultramarines successors and their few odd cousins fighting for the Imperium...

Eh, I don't really follow which legion a chapter came from. I either like them or I dont, and in some cases they're vastly different from their parent legion. Anyway, most of the 2nd founding chapters -> onwards kinda blend into each other, there aren't many that stand out regardless of where they come from. So it doesn't really bother me.

I'm mostly in it for the 30k stuff anyway haha.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Eh, I don't really follow which legion a chapter came from. I either like them or I dont, and in some cases they're vastly different from their parent legion. Anyway, most of the 2nd founding chapters -> onwards kinda blend into each other, there aren't many that stand out regardless of where they come from. So it doesn't really bother me.

I'm mostly in it for the 30k stuff anyway haha.

Well you don't need to because they're probably Ultramarines successors anyway unless specifically stated. The numbers don't affect whether or not I like a specific chapter all that much but it does change the tone of the setting and my enjoyment of it. I'd really much prefer if the founding legions were represented equally.

And the chapters wouldn't blend into each other as much since they'd take on characteristics from their parent chapter. The Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Mantis Warriors, Carcharadons, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, and so on all stand out more to me because they embody certain aspects of their parent chapter while having their own unique twists. With codex compliant chapters that stem from a parent chapter whose defining characteristic is that it is codex compliant, you end up with chapters that just blend together. The Ultramarines successors don't really stand out that much except maybe the Mortificators.

That said, I like the setting the way it is, I just think it could be much better.

I just think they all blend together (past the few that you mentioned) no matter who their founding legion was, partly because they aren't written about much, and partly because there's just so many. Not necessarily anything to do with them mostly being UM successors, because just because they're successors of the UM doesn't mean they can't be divergent. They just aren't written to be divergent, or are hardly written about at all.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I just think they all blend together (past the few that you mentioned) no matter who their founding legion was, partly because they aren't written about much, and partly because there's just so many. Not necessarily anything to do with them mostly being UM successors, because just because they're successors of the UM doesn't mean they can't be divergent. They just aren't written to be divergent, or are hardly written about at all.

That's true but at least it'd be 9 chapters blending together, which would also represent the player base more equally. Still, 2/3rds of all chapters, yet they don't have any standout successors on par with the Black Templars or Crimson Fists.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The only thing that makes a space wolf a space wolf is grey armour and the fact they were born on Fenris. The only thing that makes a BA a BA is red armour and the fact they were born on Baal. The only thing that makes a DA a DA is...

Again, there's nothing wrong with being vanilla and well rounded. If you find that boring, fair enough, but intrinsically being 'generic' isn't a bad thing.

Space Wolves have the Curse of the Wolfen, the Canis Helix, which turns them into fething werewolves. They also spent literally their entire lives fighting and dying, and out of a culture that is fighting from age 1, the best warriors out of millions of fantastic warriors are chosen. They're also vikings that are obsessed with wolves, and have to defeat the alpha of a Fenrisian Wolf Pack as a rite of passage into the Wolf Guard. That's a helluva lot more character than Marines Marines Roman names Marines.

The Blood Angels have the Red Thirst and Black Rage as well as their Sanguinary lineage. They are Artificers and artists as well as warriors. They go insane before battle (on occasion). They have an insatiable thirst for blood. They were born emaciated tribals who are forced to fight for survival their entire lives, just for the opportunity to join the Angels. They have far more angelic-ness to them as well, things like Winged jump packs come to mind. Whereas the UM are called Angels of Death for no discernible reason other than their Marines, who do literally nothing but practice being Marines.

Dark Angels have their Unforgiven hunt for the Fallen, and still maintain their Legion ways, and wear robes and are actually KNIGHTS, instead of SOLDIERS. They also have their induction into the Inner Circle, as well as the Higher Mysteries (though I'm unsure if this has fallen out of use, it was there in Fallen Angels and I see no reason for it to be abandoned). Whereas the Ultramarines are soldiers, plain and simple. They are soldiers for the sake of being soldiers, and the only ones of them that aren't just soldiers are Calgar and the Librarians, who are practically forced to be more than soldiers.

In conclusion, the Ultramarines are a great Chapter with a long string of victories, but they're soldiers above all, and have all character ground out of them. If the Ultras do have any more to them than blue marines with a cool shoulder patch and a Roman name, please elaborate and enlighten me in my ignorance.

I misunderstood what you meant, I thought you meant like 'Ultramarines act like they're better than everyone else when the only thing that makes them Ultramarines is that they have blue armour...' And I just meant that the only reason a SW is a SW is that they happened to be born on Fenris etc etc, sorry.

There is more there before the heresy, but they are plain in 40k. Although I'll say again that isn't neccessarily a bad thing, but I can see why you might find it dull.

Also, I will explain the hypocritical thing, since you asked, here we go:

The Ultramarines are massive hypocrites because a.) they have what I've dubbed "lapdog Chapters", like the Genesis Chapter, who essentially subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines and have even been known to put their Companies under the command of Ultramarines Captains, b.) They have essentially hundreds of Regiments of Guard under their command (or at least, Calgar does) and c.) they have deviated from the Codex with their Tyrranic War Veterans, who are stated to be outside of the Ten Companies. Now I shall elaborate.

The whole purpose of the Second Founding was to break up the Legions and prevent a second Heresy, right? right? Wrong! The Ultramarines currently have quite a few Chapters - the Genesis comes to mind - that will willingly follow the Ultramarines just about anywhere, and who would easily join the Ultramarines in open rebellion. These Chapters obey Calgar's commands, and are essentially Calgar's little Legion, in that they will do just about ANYTHING HE ASKS.

The Ultramarines also have several hundred regiments of Ultramar Auxilia, which are essentially Imperial Guard under the command of Marneus Calgar. They are

...trained with extreme discipline and dedication,[1a] reaching to standards expected from Space Marines, as such they are considered much more competent than the average PDF.[1b] While Ultramar is exempt of the normal tithes of manpower expected of the worlds in the Imperium, the Ultramar Auxilia maintain many regiments ready for deployment to locations outside of Ultramar[i].[2a]

This is essentially several hundred FULL REGIMENTS of Imperial Guard ready to deploy alongside the Ultramarines at any engagement, who are also ready to fly out to the defense of any system in the Segmentum Ultima - all under the command of Marneus Calgar

The Ultramarines have also defied the Codex's edicts with their Tyrranic War Veterans, who are stated to be outside of the original ten Companies. Now, this last one I'm less sure on, so if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.


Now, these are two strong reasons for the Ultramarines to be massive fething hypocrites, and one mid-strength one. Take of it what you will.



Also, as far as the Second Founding goes, it is my belief that the Rowboat broke up the Legions in order to protect the Loyalists from Traitor Legions that he was sheltering, and didn't want them to suffer for their lineage, and thus just said that they were Ultramarines, when, in fact, they were not. when I figured this out, I gained a lot of respect for Guilliman, and I no longer consider him a generic Primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I misunderstood what you meant, I thought you meant like 'Ultramarines act like they're better than everyone else when the only thing that makes them Ultramarines is that they have blue armour...' And I just meant that the only reason a SW is a SW is that they happened to be born on Fenris etc etc, sorry.

There is more there before the heresy, but they are plain in 40k. Although I'll say again that isn't neccessarily a bad thing, but I can see why you might find it dull.

Space Wolves have a lot of character, poorly written though it is, and their wolfyness and Vikingness is what makes them Space Wolves. Oh, yes, and I can see why you thought I was getting all worked up in my posts. Actually, I'm just enjoying myself; I love arguing.

 dusara217 wrote:

The whole purpose of the Second Founding was to break up the Legions and prevent a second Heresy, right? right? Wrong! The Ultramarines currently have quite a few Chapters - the Genesis comes to mind - that will willingly follow the Ultramarines just about anywhere, and who would easily join the Ultramarines in open rebellion. These Chapters obey Calgar's commands, and are essentially Calgar's little Legion, in that they will do just about ANYTHING HE ASKS.

Versus the other hundreds of Chapters which so not dogmatically follow the UM. Only the Genesis Chapter have this relationship with UM. Many 3rd and later Founding Chapters won't have such a relationship and might only see the UM as a role model - nothing more. Whilst the UM are the primary benefactor of gene-seed, it doesn't mean that all of these chapters are more loyal to Calgar than the Emperor. And besides, it was in now way forced that the Genesis Chapter obey the UM: that is their choice.
But hey, Ward's writing.

The Ultramarines also have several hundred regiments of Ultramar Auxilia, which are essentially Imperial Guard under the command of Marneus Calgar. They are

...trained with extreme discipline and dedication,[1a] reaching to standards expected from Space Marines, as such they are considered much more competent than the average PDF.[1b] While Ultramar is exempt of the normal tithes of manpower expected of the worlds in the Imperium, the Ultramar Auxilia maintain many regiments ready for deployment to locations outside of Ultramar[i].[2a]

This is essentially several hundred FULL REGIMENTS of Imperial Guard ready to deploy alongside the Ultramarines at any engagement, who are also ready to fly out to the defense of any system in the Segmentum Ultima - all under the command of Marneus Calgar.

I believe that nothing in the Codex says this is bad. In fact, I believe that Guilliman probably encouraged other to do the same. It's just that Ultramar is a very prosperous area, so they have a lot of resources to use. Again, this army has no real way of getting off world, so couldn't really fo an effective campaigning army. Many chapters could've created a force like this, but the UM have a flair for logistics and organisation.

The Ultramarines have also defied the Codex's edicts with their Tyrranic War Veterans, who are stated to be outside of the original ten Companies. Now, this last one I'm less sure on, so if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.

Actually, I though the Tyrannical War Vets were just Marines who had special training/experience in fighting Tyranids that were already part of their designated squads: not actually taken out of their original groups to form a new one. As far as I know, anyway.

Also, as far as the Second Founding goes, it is my belief that the Rowboat broke up the Legions in order to protect the Loyalists from Traitor Legions that he was sheltering, and didn't want them to suffer for their lineage, and thus just said that they were Ultramarines, when, in fact, they were not. when I figured this out, I gained a lot of respect for Guilliman, and I no longer consider him a generic Primarch.

Interesting concept, never though of it that way before!

Actually, I'm just enjoying myself; I love arguing.

You and me both!

I think most UM successors don't see a difference between honoring Guilliman, Calgar, and the UM tradition on the one hand and honoring the Imperium on the other hand, except perhaps inasmuch as the subject of the Ecclesiarchy comes up. SM seem to hew to the Imperial Truth by and large.

Salamanders! A chapter dedicated to helping people and not being a clandestine evil chapter that kills there on brothers (Angels of darkness) or almost start wars with other chapters (black templars) or have a stuck up primarch who cant even control his on troops (Master of the first) or have a chapter master who needs to be in a pissing contest with everyone (Pandorax).

Also like wolves so I am between those two.

Least fav: Dark angels

Raven Guard because I like the super sneaky beakies. while other chapters fight in formation they attack and withdraw!

too bad not a lot of books about them, but I can say that Shadow captain is a fairly good book for the price.

 Manchu wrote:
I think most UM successors don't see a difference between honoring Guilliman, Calgar, and the UM tradition on the one hand and honoring the Imperium on the other hand, except perhaps inasmuch as the subject of the Ecclesiarchy comes up. SM seem to hew to the Imperial Truth by and large.

I don't mind that interpretation around the UM-based chapters. Its minded when it come to to the not UM-based chapters on the other hand with their own traditions and customs. If you want a canon example about Space Marines and ehm other warriors. Go for the Lone Wolves comic. That showed me a lot of how the Space Wolves are like and excellent proof about how they can tiptoe around God-Emperor. I can think most of the nicer chapters doing it like this.