Favorite First Founding Chapter?

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**e.earnshaw**

Alpha legion because you listed them as loyalist or is that what they want you to think.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Sabor wrote:
Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do,

Wait, wat?

You mean the Space Wolves who get to break every rule of Space Marining so it's cool?

No sex with the wimmenz because a Space Marine recruit has to be less than 10 years old to start the process? Not if you're Space Wolves!
No booze because your body processes the alcohol poisoning so well? Not if you're Space Wolves! We invented super booze!

The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

**EngulfedObject**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!"

"With a few fringe exceptions .... all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Disgusting.

**Sabor**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Sabor wrote:
Gotta go with the space wolves, why?

-They aren't Mary sues who are literally perfect in everything they do,
Wait, wat?

You mean the Space Wolves who get to break every rule of Space Marining so it's cool?

No sex with the wimmenz because a Space Marine recruit has to be less than 10 years old to start the process? Not if you're Space Wolves!
No booze because your body processes the alcohol poisoning so well? Not if you're Space Wolves! We invented super booze!

The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

Ummm what you said was almost completely backwards....a Mary Sue is defined as such "A Mary Sue is a character that the author identifies with so strongly that the story is warped by it." Last time i recall Space Wolves don't punch out of avatar's of khaine because they are Mary sues, Space wolves don't take on entire tomb worlds and lose no casualties because they are Mary sues, Space wolves don't beat back an entire hive fleet because they are Mary sues. When a story has to completely change direction in order to adhere to the fluff of what the author is imposing it becomes a Mary sue. Space wolves have weaknesses and yes they can have booze, but its not a defining factor in lore.

A character that blatantly goes against the back drop of the story in an all or nothing gambit (I.E. fighting the inquistion to defend its comrades they fought along) they still take high casualties and recognize that the book of the Adeptus Astartes is a method not a defining factor is the opposite of a Mary Sue. Unlike the Ultramarines that almost follow it to the letter, a chapter that is perfect that almost never has any faults or weaknesses is a Mary Sue, but im just saying. :/

**Beaviz81**

As far as superpowers go, having the ability to consume loads of alcohol seems rather low in Marty Sue-ness while getting out-everything in a fight and only surviving because you get angry on the other hand reeks of Sue-ness. Matt Ward is a very cackhanded writer.

**BrianDavion**

The Ultramarines existed long before Matt Ward. although you've pretty much identified the reason for the Utramarine hate Engulfed Object. most of it stems from the fact that the UMs are the posterboys and everyone who likes a differnt chapter is annoyed GW doesn't apparently share their tastes. some people just happen to like the straight arrow, the guy who follows the rules and does thing by the book perfect, as opposed to someone else who uses the book for toilet paper, and acheives results anyway. Honestly if the Ultramarines follow the codex and have more wins to their name.... maybe the codex has I dunno... some value?

**EngulfedObject**

BrianDavion wrote:
The Ultramarines existed long before Matt Ward. although you've pretty much identified the reason for the Utramarine hate Engulfed Object. most of it stems from the fact that the UMs are the posterboys and everyone who likes a differnt chapter is annoyed GW doesn't apparently share their tastes. some people just happen to like the straight arrow, the guy who follows the rules and does thing by the book perfect, as opposed to someone else who uses the book for toilet paper, and acheives results anyway. Honestly if the Ultramarines follow the codex and have more wins to their name.... maybe the codex has I dunno... some value?

The Space Marine codex wasn't always focused on the Ultramarines. The 3rd ed has the Crimson Fists on the cover for example and only briefly mentions the Ultramarines from what I remember. I still think they should just give the Ultramarines their own codex and introduce all loyalist First Founding chapters in the SM codex.

Also, if the majority of chapters are Ultramarines descendants and most of them follow the Codex Astartes strictly then what does the codex have to do with the Ultramarines having more wins than them?

And where does it say the Ultramarines have more victories compared to other First Founding chapters such as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels?

**Beaviz81**

Well the Ultramarines had a head-start due to being the legion that conquered the most territory. So in that way they likely have a good lead. And they are a very active chapter even several thousand years after their founding.

Basically Matt Ward transformed them from being a relatively bland chapter into poster-boys through terrible writing and even worse word of God while he took a dump at the other founding chapters and their adherents.

**Keep**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
SW- Nope. I'm sorry, but I can't love the Wolves. They just seem too SM+1, as if a newbie 12-year-old created a homebrew Chapter to defacate on everyone else's faction. Sorry, but that's an opinion!

You are not alone. I prefer legions that do not try to plaster their image all over the place (opposed to SW BA UM...) and do not try by any means necessary to stand out...

**AnomanderRake**

Pre-Ward the point of the Ultramarines was that they were the extreme-LN hardcore straight-laced by-the-book Chapter who did everything by the Codex Astartes and were really bad at adapting to things the Codex didn't tell them how to deal with. Ward and the people who wrote Space Marine and Ultramarines replaced the entirety of the Codex Astartes with "do what the author thinks is the right thing to do" and sucked all the soul and character out of the Chapter.

**e.earnshaw**

Meh screw da smurfs retcon them from existance that the trynids ate granddad smurf then spat him out (tasted like cardboard).Then after killing all nids put bolt pistol to their heads and made the universe a better place.

**Veteran Sergeant**

EngulfedObject wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!"

"With a few fringe exceptions .... all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Disgusting.

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnomanderRake wrote:
Pre-Ward the point of the Ultramarines was that they were the extreme-LN hardcore straight-laced by-the-book Chapter who did everything by the Codex Astartes and were really bad at adapting to things the Codex didn't tell them how to deal with. .

Actually, that's 100% not true.

The old Codex Astartes actually described the Codex as the authoritative guide to waging war in any number of ways in thousands of different environments.

It wasn't until Graham McNeill wrote his terrible Ultramarines novels that the Codex became a bad thing.

Like my signature says, Marneus Calgar is explicitly stated to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians". If the Codex was garbage and restrictive, and Calgar is one of the best at warfighting, imagine how bad that makes everybody else at Space Marining, lol.

Being Codex Compliant in the old days just meant they followed all the guidelines on how to select and train their Marines, and maintained a 10x100 Chapter structure. It had nothing to do with how they fought in combat.

**TheCustomLime**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
EngulfedObject wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Space Wolves are Mary Sue as they are Wolfy. If not the Sueiest of Space Marines. A Mary Sue is an author stand-in. A perfect ideal character. Nobody wants to be an Ultramarine. Ultramarines have rules.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!"

"With a few fringe exceptions .... all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Disgusting.

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

Because it wasn't their super special 1st founding Chapter that was made the model marines. It makes their special snowflake chapter seem less special.

And mine is the Ultramarines.

**Veteran Sergeant**

EngulfedObjec wrote:t The Space Marine codex wasn't always focused on the Ultramarines. The 3rd ed has the Crimson Fists on the cover for example and only briefly mentions the Ultramarines from what I remember.

This is also incorrect. The 3rd Edition book was the only one that didn't have Ultramarines on the cover (and it was just an homage to the cover of the original Rogue Trader book), and all of them through 5th Edition had painting guides on how to paint Ultramarines, and the fluff was been a copy/paste job from Codex: Ultramarines and talks about the Ultramarines and the Codex Astartes.

It was renamed Codex: Space Marines because GW thought that Codex: Ultramarines was confusing new players on what book to buy to play "regular" Space Marines. The special characters, fluff, and pictures have always been primarily Ultramarines. There are more Ultramarines special characters than any other Chapter, and they've always been the majority in every C:SM book. There are 6 UM SCs in the current Space Marine Codex, and only 7 that are not. In 5th, it was 6:5, in 4th it was 5:2.

Confused about whose book it is still?

There's been a Big 4 since late Rogue Trader. It's always been Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines.

Every other chapter is just "Also Starring" in 40K, lol.

It may burn some of you Ultrahatards up inside a little, but the Ultramarines are no different from the Blangels, Dangels, and Spwolves in how the 40K universe treats them. They all get to take on impossible odds and win, and come back from near-defeat, and be the poster boys of the game. Because they're The Big Four. Trying to suggest that the Ultramarines are somehow "worse" simply because the guys who created 40K decided they were "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" is silly fanboi talk.

**Orblivion**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

**AegisGrimm**

I really like the Ultramarines. I've never understood the smurf-hate. I've never had a good reason for disliking them explained to me.

Why I do like them:
- Classical neo-Roman styling, which I like.
- Color scheme (though I could have done without the 'ultramarine' pun)
- No discernible gene seed corruption.
- Less obsessive-compulsive than Pain Gloves and Cybernetics and Unforgiven and Red Thirst/Black Rage.
- Robute wrote the Codex Astartes. It fixed the issues that led to the Horus Heresy by dispersing power and forcing different forces to work together. After 10,000 years the Codex is still the premier guide to Imperial tactics, techniques and procedures. The main gripe about the Codex Astartes - that people follow it blindly - is kinda like complaining because people worship the atheist Emperor as a God. The fault is not in our Emperor, or in our Codex, but in ourselves.
- Not focused blindly on combat, but excel in administration and rulership. Their rule over the 'Realm of Ultramar' is enlightened and prosperous.

There are other Chapters I like as well, for different reasons. I like the Dark Angels 'sinister monk' vibe. I like the Salamanders living and working among their fully human Promethean brethren. I like the Blood Angels aesthetic vibe, which counterbalances to the whole Thirst/Rage thing. Heck, I like something about just about every First Founding Chapter.

I even like the culture of the Space Wolves, whom I generally dislike. The reasons for my dislike of the Space Wolves could fill a post, but I do like the roaring camaraderie of their heroic neo-Norse culture.

And I agree with Flame-Rage, I'd probably vote for the Thousand Sons if all the Traitors were included. But they weren't.

That's exactly what I would have posted!

For everyone that takes all the stuff about Ultramarines and calls them special snowflakes, every other one of the big 4 chapters has just as much special snowflake garbage. At least Ultramarines don't have "Ultramissles" and "Ultraclaws" and alien space ice claws on not-Berzerker Murdermurdermurder dreads and Mr. Freeze ice guns and special Marks of vehicles that no other Chapters have, or vehicles that are completely unique in the first place that have been kept solely for their chapter for 10,000 years. Or riding their failed, mutated aspirants into battle.

Ultramarines are actually the chapter that has the least of that horrible writing, as far as the big chapters go.

The worst think I can think of right away are the Gauntlets of Ultramar, which in the grand scheme of things, having the weapons of a Primarch routinely taking the field instead of being stored away in a shrine is pretty awesome.

**Beaviz81**

AegisGrimm wrote:
I really like the Ultramarines. I've never understood the smurf-hate. I've never had a good reason for disliking them explained to me.

Why I do like them:
- Classical neo-Roman styling, which I like.
- Color scheme (though I could have done without the 'ultramarine' pun)
- No discernible gene seed corruption.
- Less obsessive-compulsive than Pain Gloves and Cybernetics and Unforgiven and Red Thirst/Black Rage.
- Robute wrote the Codex Astartes. It fixed the issues that led to the Horus Heresy by dispersing power and forcing different forces to work together. After 10,000 years the Codex is still the premier guide to Imperial tactics, techniques and procedures. The main gripe about the Codex Astartes - that people follow it blindly - is kinda like complaining because people worship the atheist Emperor as a God. The fault is not in our Emperor, or in our Codex, but in ourselves.
- Not focused blindly on combat, but excel in administration and rulership. Their rule over the 'Realm of Ultramar' is enlightened and prosperous.

There are other Chapters I like as well, for different reasons. I like the Dark Angels 'sinister monk' vibe. I like the Salamanders living and working among their fully human Promethean brethren. I like the Blood Angels aesthetic vibe, which counterbalances to the whole Thirst/Rage thing. Heck, I like something about just about every First Founding Chapter.

I even like the culture of the Space Wolves, whom I generally dislike. The reasons for my dislike of the Space Wolves could fill a post, but I do like the roaring camaraderie of their heroic neo-Norse culture.

And I agree with Flame-Rage, I'd probably vote for the Thousand Sons if all the Traitors were included. But they weren't.

That's exactly what I would have posted!

For everyone that takes all the stuff about Ultramarines and calls them special snowflakes, every other one of the big 4 chapters has just as much special snowflake garbage. At least Ultramarines don't have "Ultramissles" and "Ultraclaws" and alien space ice claws on not-Berzerker dreads and Mr. Freeze ice guns and special Marks of vehicles that no other Chapters have, or vehicles that are completely unique in the first place that have been kept solely for their chapter for 10,000 years.

Ultramarines are actually the chapter that has the least of that horrible writing, as far as the big chapters go.

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

**KingDeath**

Orblivion wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

Codex Daemonhunters (not the terrible novels!) Grey Knights weren't boring. Their purity came from completely surrendering their egos and their premarine selfs. They were stripped of all that made them human to better fight the unimaginable horror that are the daemons of the warp. All they had to look forward to was to finaly rest within the catacombs of titan, no feasts below a stuffed daemon's head, no Paladins/ Purifiers which were even purer than the rest because of sparkles and sure as hell no SoB blood fueled bloodmagic. Their greatest hero in recent times was not Draigo Sue but Aurelian who lost his very soul in desperate battle against Angron.
Grey Knights are one of the reasons why i consider the fleshing out of some 40k aspects as a very dubious boon.

So, to answer the op's question. Before Ward and the terrible novels i would have choosen the 666. chapter for it's bleak kind of heroism. Nowadays it's the Ultramarines because i can respect a good administrator

**AegisGrimm**

Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

No need to be nasty and condescending. I am not up to date with current editions. I still know that Ultramarines have less stupid stuff than their bretheren when it comes to crazy writing, though. Blood Weapons? Ice Weapons and Wolf-names? Murderfang? Allying with Necrons?

Ultramarines hate is just a bandwagon to be jumped on. Half the things people look to are by authors who have just as many stupid things invested in other parts of the universal fluff.

**Beaviz81**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Then you should open the Codex Space Marines, or you have a truly warped sense of reading.

And don't they have certain Gauntlets? How about the standard bolter being the Ultima bolter? And how about the Land Raider Terminus Ultra? Thats a pretty big tank, and just three seconds of browsing. I wonder what else lie beneath the surface.

No need to be nasty and condescending. I am not up to date with current editions. I still know that Ultramarines have less stupid stuff than their bretheren when it comes to crazy writing, though.

Ultramarines hate is just a bandwagon to be jumped on.

Sorry for that then. Didn't mean to sound nasty.

And I'm not a hater. I just pointed out where you were in error nothing else.

Doesn't you have backflipping Terminators? Well compared to some writing thats pretty mundane.

If you want a good layout of them go for Dan Abnett's books, he did quite the job describing the Ultramarines as Lawful Good guys with realistic flaws and strengths even though Abnett as always went for POV.

**AegisGrimm**

Doesn't you have backflipping Terminators? Well compared to some writing thats pretty mundane.

Yeah but wasn't that C.S. Goto? He's kind of bad all over for anything in the 40K setting, lol.

**Khonsu**

Space Wolves are far more corrupt than the Thousand Sons they set out to destroy.

**TheCustomLime**

Ultramarines do not have naming schemes even remotely as silly as the Space Wolves and to a lesser extent the Blood Angels do. You can have a Space Wolf Wolf Lord wielding Wolf Claws riding on a Thunderwolf, in a unit of Thunderwolf Calvary also equipped with Wolf Claws and having a Stormwolf gunship as air support.

**AegisGrimm**

Yeah, I for one think the Roman aesthetic has been handled far better for the Ultramarines than the other Chapters unique looks. Blood Angels and Space Wolves aesthetics used to be more cool in editions past than the "badly overdone" they are today.

**TheCustomLime**

Take a look at the Blood Angel tactical squad box. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick is it overloaded with blood drops, vials, chalices, wings and all manner of details. Then the Sergeant has abs and molded nipples. It's just an excess of details for the sake of details. It's the Square Enix school of design.

**AegisGrimm**

Yeah, I like the Terminators of Space Hulk being so detailed, but not normal marines.

**Beaviz81**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Doesn't you have backflipping Terminators? Well compared to some writing thats pretty mundane.

Yeah but wasn't that C.S. Goto? He's kind of bad all over for anything in the 40K setting, lol.

Thats the problem with the fluff. At best you get average writers, and even Abnett does the most ridiculous stuff from time to time and he is the best there is.

**Wyzilla**

This is also part of the reason why I like the Dark Angels. They're really, really low on bling, with their Veterans just being normal dudes in Aquila armor with robes. Hell they're more modest then the Ultramarines even, whose First Company veterans look like walking golden art galleries.

Plus they have the coolest looking Chaplains.

**Computron**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Take a look at the Blood Angel tactical squad box. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick is it overloaded with blood drops, vials, chalices, wings and all manner of details. Then the Sergeant has abs and molded nipples. It's just an excess of details for the sake of details. It's the Square Enix school of design.

Every marine is an individual hero and they wear their awards on their armour. They have no parade armour because their normal combat armour is as flash, as grand as it can be. Every award, every battle honor, they're walking museums and representations of the chapter. You'd have to go back to before the heresy to see plain marines with bog standard armour.
It's only practical that GW puts out mostly plain marines, so that they can be used for as many chapters as possible. When Dark Vengeance came out I remember that a lot of people complained about the DA markings because it would make it difficult to convert to their own chapter.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Orblivion wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Somebody has to be the best.

Why does everyone get a bug up their butts that Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson (you know, the guys who invented the game) decided it was the Ultramarines?

I just dislike the idea that anybody has to be the best, which is why I find the Grey Knights to be so boring. The Ultramarines aren't as good as the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, or the Raven Guard at stealth, or the Blood Angels at assault. I prefer the idea that each of the first founding chapters has their niche that they do better than anybody else, and not the idea that one of them is just flat out the best.

The whole idea of the Codex Astartes was creating chapters that are really good at everything. Specialization for Space Marines is not only silly, but impractical. The ability to fight in any way on any planet in any conditions is what would make a Space Marine chapter really good.

Specializing in one kind of warfare is a bad thing for Space Marines. It suggests a dogmatic, inflexible approach and a limited range of thinking. Especially sieges or defensive warfare like the Fists since that kind of fighting is actually anathema to the Space Marines' typical mission. And well, stealth fighting when you're giant armored shock troops is also kinda silly. At least the Blood Angels have the excuse that their Marines lose their minds after a while and can't really be controlled. The reason why the Ultramarines are the best is probably because all of the Space Marine chapters should be imitating their style of warfare, and practical approach to all different kinds of fighting.