Johnnytorrance wrote:
So, the Emperor has been around for roughly 48000 years.

So before he was interred into the Golden Throne he was alive for 40K years...

why is he deteriorating on the throne then?

Whats causing a perpetual to die or die slowly?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering he's a skeleton, using words such as "alive" aren't really all that relevant to his current condition. Corpse Emperor indeed. Of course, it's not like he really needs the body anyway. He's more or less already a warp god.

 david choe wrote:

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
So, the Emperor has been around for roughly 48000 years.

So before he was interred into the Golden Throne he was alive for 40K years...

why is he deteriorating on the throne then?

Whats causing a perpetual to die or die slowly?

I don't remember the timeline.. but it was real quick ... after he was hooked up on the GT... he stop communicating with the outside world with in weeks or a few years... not even century or anything like that.. real fast.

All this time even now..... he is fighting demons trying to break into the GT gate. So he is the Astromacion (sp) and fighting demons at the same time for 10,000 years on the GT.

I might be mistaken....

 dusara217 wrote:

Astronomican was just fine when the Emperor was out crusading with the First Legion, so Astronomican has nothing to do with the Golden Throne.

 Shidank wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Astronomican was just fine when the Emperor was out crusading with the First Legion, so Astronomican has nothing to do with the Golden Throne.

Yeah, this actually always bugged the hell out of me.

I just wrote it off as the astronomicon being maintained through the thousands of psykers sacrificed to it every day and that the Emperor's will keeps it lit. As his will waivers, the light dims. No volume of sacrificial psykers will change that.

The GT tie in for me is that it keeps his conduit to the material realm and continues to will the damn thing to be lit.

 Shidank wrote:
Thanks! I'd like to read this fluff sometime. If you ever remember, please let us know!

 Psienesis wrote:
Which might actually be a good thing, maybe. Problem is, no one knows for sure. Maybe he'll reappear somewhere in the galaxy, in his Final Form, ready to kick ass and chew bubble-gum...

... or maybe he's reborn to regular human parents as a baby and has to grow into his powers once again. This would be bad.

 dusara217 wrote:
Or he ceases to have a place in the material world and is forced to create his own daemons to help him combat the other Gods of the Warp, since he is now a vulnerable Warp God with not tether to the physical world.

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Which might actually be a good thing, maybe. Problem is, no one knows for sure. Maybe he'll reappear somewhere in the galaxy, in his Final Form, ready to kick ass and chew bubble-gum...

... or maybe he's reborn to regular human parents as a baby and has to grow into his powers once again. This would be bad.

How did you come up with this solution? Did you use the Chaos Theory to solved this problem? Did you consult Edward Lorenz to get this solution?

 Psienesis wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Which might actually be a good thing, maybe. Problem is, no one knows for sure. Maybe he'll reappear somewhere in the galaxy, in his Final Form, ready to kick ass and chew bubble-gum...

... or maybe he's reborn to regular human parents as a baby and has to grow into his powers once again. This would be bad.

How did you come up with this solution? Did you use the Chaos Theory to solved this problem? Did you consult Edward Lorenz to get this solution?

Because the Emperor is a Perpetual, according to the HH novels, and this is the manner in which Perpetuals who "die" are returned to life. They either just reappear somewhere, or are re-born.

Shidank wrote:I think I vaguely remember the scene you're talking about.

I'm not fighting the Emperor being a Perpetual, I'm just wanting a little more drilled down knowledge of exactly....how?

david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Which might actually be a good thing, maybe. Problem is, no one knows for sure. Maybe he'll reappear somewhere in the galaxy, in his Final Form, ready to kick ass and chew bubble-gum...

... or maybe he's reborn to regular human parents as a baby and has to grow into his powers once again. This would be bad.

How did you come up with this solution? Did you use the Chaos Theory to solved this problem? Did you consult Edward Lorenz to get this solution?

Because the Emperor is a Perpetual, according to the HH novels, and this is the manner in which Perpetuals who "die" are returned to life. They either just reappear somewhere, or are re-born.

Lol....you didn't get the joke.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Shidank wrote:I think I vaguely remember the scene you're talking about.

I'm not fighting the Emperor being a Perpetual, I'm just wanting a little more drilled down knowledge of exactly....how?

Yeahhh I don't know haha. I don't think there's anything in the fluff past that he is a perpetual.

david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Which might actually be a good thing, maybe. Problem is, no one knows for sure. Maybe he'll reappear somewhere in the galaxy, in his Final Form, ready to kick ass and chew bubble-gum...

... or maybe he's reborn to regular human parents as a baby and has to grow into his powers once again. This would be bad.

How did you come up with this solution? Did you use the Chaos Theory to solved this problem? Did you consult Edward Lorenz to get this solution?

Because the Emperor is a Perpetual, according to the HH novels, and this is the manner in which Perpetuals who "die" are returned to life. They either just reappear somewhere, or are re-born.

Lol....you didn't get the joke.

I'd hardly call it a joke.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yes. That's exactly why. Spot on.

Nothing about it being asinine or pointless, and just not funny. Definitely not. And again, I wasn't talking about chaos theory earlier. I don't know anything about chaos theory. I was talking 40k chaos. Dunno why you're still not getting that after I've said about three times.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think Grammaticus says something about the Emperor being 'one of us' or something like that, in Legion where he's saying about meeting the Emperor.

I'm only what I am now thanks to xenos intervention. You, you're a true Perpetual. You're still like him

 ImAGeek wrote:
What exactly is the Star Child theory? I've seen that term a few times but I'm afraid im not familiar with it.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Vulkan is a true perpetual, he was born with it right? He fell through the atmosphere of Macragge, burned up and died, then his body regenerated back to normal. Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating?

 Deadshot wrote:

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Vulkan is a true perpetual, he was born with it right? He fell through the atmosphere of Macragge, burned up and died, then his body regenerated back to normal. Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating?

...because he isn't dead yet? He is, biologically speaking, still alive.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Vulkan is a true perpetual, he was born with it right? He fell through the atmosphere of Macragge, burned up and died, then his body regenerated back to normal. Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating?

...because he isn't dead yet? He is, biologically speaking, still alive.

It would be better then, if he did die? Because depending on which theory you follow, either he'll be reborn as a warp God, or he'll regenerate being a perpetual.

I wonder if the Council of Terra know that and are keeping him as he is because they don't want to relinquish control...

 Psienesis wrote:
The only options are not "Warp God" or "Regenerate". There is, as previously mentioned, the option where the Emperor is re-born to human parents as a baby, just like he was in 8000 BC, and then has to go about learning everything all over again.

This would be very, very bad for Mankind, because it makes the living Emperor extremely vulnerable.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The only options are not "Warp God" or "Regenerate". There is, as previously mentioned, the option where the Emperor is re-born to human parents as a baby, just like he was in 8000 BC, and then has to go about learning everything all over again.

This would be very, very bad for Mankind, because it makes the living Emperor extremely vulnerable.

We've seen Perpetuals in the Horus Heresy series and none of them worked like that. I don't see why he would be different.

 ImAGeek wrote:

It would be better then, if he did die? Because depending on which theory you follow, either he'll be reborn as a warp God, or he'll regenerate being a perpetual.

I wonder if the Council of Terra know that and are keeping him as he is because they don't want to relinquish control...

 insaniak wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

It would be better then, if he did die? Because depending on which theory you follow, either he'll be reborn as a warp God, or he'll regenerate being a perpetual.

I wonder if the Council of Terra know that and are keeping him as he is because they don't want to relinquish control...

Various bits of the Administratum, and factions within the Inquisition, hold that belief. Unfortunately, convincing the rest of the Administratum and Inquisition that letting the Emperor die is a good idea is not an easy task...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
There is the option that the High Lords really really really don't want to relinquish control.

BUT, if it was the simple case of allowing him to die to be reborn, either the emperor himself would have suggested it, or the Primarch's whilst they were still around would have done it I imagine.

So, the theory I most agree with is, that the rift in the web way project is so volatile, that even minutes without them em on the throne controlling it and the astronomicam would spell absolute doom for Terra and/or the Imperium. Hence when you get round to the grey knights super secret box/key last resort thing, it must be that a black crusade has succeeded, Terra is on the verge of being lost and is more or less unrecoverable and so the emperor isn't needed any longer to hold back the nasties of the doomed webway as there is nothing to left to protect. A hail mary so to speak.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
There is the option that the High Lords really really really don't want to relinquish control.

BUT, if it was the simple case of allowing him to die to be reborn, either the emperor himself would have suggested it, or the Primarch's whilst they were still around would have done it I imagine.

So, the theory I most agree with is, that the rift in the web way project is so volatile, that even minutes without them em on the throne controlling it and the astronomicam would spell absolute doom for Terra and/or the Imperium. Hence when you get round to the grey knights super secret box/key last resort thing, it must be that a black crusade has succeeded, Terra is on the verge of being lost and is more or less unrecoverable and so the emperor isn't needed any longer to hold back the nasties of the doomed webway as there is nothing to left to protect. A hail mary so to speak.

Yea, I think this is probably it. The moment the Emperor dies, the Empire will collapse (or at least key planets like Terra and Cadia would be immediately lost). Even if the Emperor were aware that he's a perpetual, he might not know how long or where he would reappear. It's simply too great a risk to take when he's the only thing allowing reliable warp travel.

And the perpetual thing is stupid anyway, the Star Child theory at least makes a bit of sense, similar to the Ynnead thing with the Eldar. Plus he's being worshiped as an actual god now so being reborn in the warp (since it's suggested he's a warp entity born from shamans committing mass-suicide) doesn't seem that far-fetched. And Cypher's still supposedly making his way to Terra so maybe we'll get an answer someday...

 david choe wrote:

Spoiler:

I think because of the creation of the New Man, the 1000s of shaman were or is now the Emperor. According to the Shaman fluff... when they die each of them would be reincarnated. When they formed as a New Man they would never die and they are now immortal together as the New Man. We don't know what is suppose to happen if the Emperor die because he wasn't suppose to. Would the souls of the shaman be reincarnated as individual shaman or would each of them be eaten in the warp?

I really don't see how all the souls would stay in tact and joined together again to form a new version of the New Man or Emperor reborn.

Also, if there is now a warp god Emperor ... I see this warp god as a doppelgänger of the Emperor. It can not be the same person because the Emperor is not really dead.. so the entity in the warp (if there is one) can not be the the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne.

I think there are:
1 - The New Man who is the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne and is dying.
2 - A warp god (because of human worshiping him) Emperor in the Warp, this is a doppelgänger of the Emperor and has the same personality... it is a clone of him. I am sure that the New Man and the Warp god Emperor are in communication and are working together for their agenda.

I think once the New Man dies ... all the shaman souls would each be reborn by reincarnation and the Warp god emperor will protect their souls in the Warp, so they are not eaten.

This is actually a good plan if it was the New Man's plan from the beginning. So now the circle is completed. The shaman gets to be back as being Shaman and can live and die and be reincarnated safely by having the Warp god Emperor as protector. The Warp god Emperor is a contender fighting the Chaos gods. The Imperial of man is united under a real warp god to worship and the Imperial can fight the Xenos in the material realm. The shamans will no doubt have roles in the Imperium...they could be the Warp god Emperor priest working for the Ecclesiarchy.

 david choe wrote:
Also, if there is now a warp god Emperor ... I see this warp god as a doppelgänger of the Emperor. It can not be the same person because the Emperor is not really dead.. so the entity in the warp (if there is one) can not be the the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne.

This is actually a good plan if it was the New Man's plan from the beginning.

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
Also, if there is now a warp god Emperor ... I see this warp god as a doppelgänger of the Emperor. It can not be the same person because the Emperor is not really dead.. so the entity in the warp (if there is one) can not be the the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne.

Unless, of course, the Warp Entity is a manifestation of the Emperor in the warp. Astral Projection, essentially.

Would explain why he stopped communicating some time after being put into the Throne. He's not really 'there' anymore.

This is actually a good plan if it was the New Man's plan from the beginning.

The Emperor's plan involved having Magnus on the Throne. Magnus kind of screwed that up.

The Emperor winding up mostly dead and on the Throne instead wasn't a part of the plan.

 david choe wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
Also, if there is now a warp god Emperor ... I see this warp god as a doppelgänger of the Emperor. It can not be the same person because the Emperor is not really dead.. so the entity in the warp (if there is one) can not be the the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne.

Unless, of course, the Warp Entity is a manifestation of the Emperor in the warp. Astral Projection, essentially.

Would explain why he stopped communicating some time after being put into the Throne. He's not really 'there' anymore.

This is actually a good plan if it was the New Man's plan from the beginning.

The Emperor's plan involved having Magnus on the Throne. Magnus kind of screwed that up.

The Emperor winding up mostly dead and on the Throne instead wasn't a part of the plan.

The Emperor as you think is The New Man. The New Man is 1000s of shaman. The Shaman have no desire to conquer the galaxy or to be a tyrant or any of that. They just wanted for mankind to survive and for peace and harmony. Sometime we forget who or what the New Man is.

We don't know what the New Man ultimate plan is or will be.

From how the Birth of Slaanesh took place. I think once the New Man dies on the Golden Throne... Birth of the Warp god Emperor which is already exist will be unleashed. This new Warp space in and around Terra and this chuck of the galaxy will be his domain and Emperor's "daemons" will be unleashed as well. He is the new Warp "Chaos" god.

Your astral projection could be... but I think the Warp god is already existed for a long time .. it has been 10,000 years in the making. The astral projection is also a "mask" to blind the chaos gods from knowing that there is a real emperor god in the warp.

I don't see how making Magnus on the Throne has anything to do with the New Man's plan. If his plan was to create a Warp god for human to protect his shaman... it came true. I am not saying that he planed Horus heresy to happened...it was an unaccounted "goof" on his part. I think The New Man plans was to unite mankind to form the Imperial and then start introducing a warp god plan. Once he united his people, he can do whatever to make his plan run "smooth".

The Heresy happened, so he needed to make his ultimate plan work any way he can. and this is his plan "B". The New Man knows that he was not suppose to die or the Shaman souls would be eaten. He needed something to protect the shaman in the warp. The only way I can see that is the Shaman needed a god of their own in the warp to protect them.

 Ignatius wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
[quote=david choe 638076 7646309 161b28c815a6d874c70b82c946277a7f.png

This is a little confusing to follow... but if I'm understanding you right then it was the Emperor's plan to be interred on the Golden Throne in his current state? Maybe I don't understand. Either way I'm confused. Do you have any written evidence of this stuff or is this personal interpretation?

It is certainly not his original plan, but it is what he is stuck with at this point. This is all just conjunction on how he has been planning around the situation to carry out his original plan, something he has had 10,000 years today. So unless he has been doing nothing but fighting deamons all this time, he has ought to have some brilliant way to fix this mistake one way or another.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 04:22:49

Post by: david choe

 Flame-Rage wrote:
I think it is important to refer to the emperor warp entity as not a "Chaos" god. You need to remember the immaterium is naturally peaceful, it was just many years of twisted souls being poured into the dimension that made all the "chaos", and as such not everything native there is exactly of the chaos nature (like the eldar gods), merely most of it. There is a very good reason the chaos gods fear the emperor, he is pretty much the exact opposite force of them, order.
So all in all, he would not likely be a "Chaos God", but an "Order God", more or less a super beefed up version of the Eldar gods

Correct!

That is why I put "chaos" in quotation. The term should just be warp god. The warp was natural and peaceful before Chaos gods took over. The Shaman were peaceful and enjoy the beauty of being reincarnated in the warp also. Chaos screwed it up for everybody.


@Ignatius

I went a little fast.

The whole story of 40k between man vs Chaos is really like this. It is more like a showdown between shaman vs chaos gods.

I hope you know the fluff about shaman and the new man.

I quick remainder of the Shaman.

Shaman were being eaten by chaos gods when they die. So they formed the New Man. The New Man mission was to defend humanity from Chaos, survival of mankind, and most important of all for Shaman survival.

The New Man took may guise in the history of humanity. The last one is the Emperor (I don't think the Emperor was suppose to be his last, but gak happened). This is why I disagree with many who view the Emperor as a tyrant or evil dictator.... he is beyond that. The Emperor is just another guise of the New Man. His ultimate mission is much more than political ambition or wealth based.

How can the shaman survive if Chaos gods are around? The only way is to beat Chaos and create their own god to fight chaos or at the very least, a protector warp god in the warp to protect their souls so they can be reincarnated as how it has always been.

I think to achieve this ultimate goal is to built the Imperium and united all men. Issue the Imperial Truth.

Then slowly introduce himself as a god Emperor and so mankind can worship him and create a doppelgänger of him in the warp as a new Warp god.

After mankind ruled the galaxy in the material realm and a the warp god Emperor exist in the warp. The Imperium will rule with true science and true god... the New Man might disappear again as he always has in the long history of the New Man. Who knows... he might just release all the shaman souls ... so each shaman can be reborn in this new safe warp space and new safe galaxy for mankind. The New man will cease to exist.

All of this could have been done by 32,000 AD or something. But it didn't because freaking Chaos gods didn't want that and caused Horus Heresy.


The New Man was really screwed and had to make plan B and use it the best he can. He can't die right away back in 30,000AD or the chaos gods would have eaten the 1,000s shaman souls.

This new plan B is what we have in the current 40K...it took almost 10,000 years. Way longer and almost failed many times... gak.. it might even fail now!

Now the New Man or the Emperor is ready to die. There is a Warp god Emperor in the Warp to protect the shaman souls for them to be reincarnated. The Emperor dies... and the shaman can be reborn. The Imperium might have some set back... but with a true warp god and many shamans on their side.. man kind have a very good chance at defeating Chaos and other xenos.

This is all my PO, but based on the fluff.

Reply by: Ignatius - click to view full reply 

53886

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 04:37:30

Post by: Ignatius

Well that is surely a fair interpretation of it. I knew of the creation story behind the Emperor in regards to the shaman's coming together.

I'll ask you this question though: What was the originally reason the shaman's came together- BESIDES- the safety of their souls?

Did their action have an altruistic intent? Or was it simply to protect their own souls?

Of course the Emperor was a tyrant-and oddly enough still is. Well based on the historical use of the word at least. I think you're definitely referring more to the other part you were saying about being an evil dictator. But this is a point of semantics.

Another question for the whole thread: How do we know that the Emperor isn't dead already? His apparent godlike powers (mostly regarding much of the claims made in the Sisters of Battle codex- like acts of faith and the sainthood of many individuals) seem to suggest that he has transcended this plain of existence and is already in power in the warp.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 05:01:16

Post by: david choe

 Ignatius wrote:
Well that is surely a fair interpretation of it. I knew of the creation story behind the Emperor in regards to the shaman's coming together.

I'll ask you this question though: What was the originally reason the shaman's came together- BESIDES- the safety of their souls?

Did their action have an altruistic intent? Or was it simply to protect their own souls?

Of course the Emperor was a tyrant-and oddly enough still is. Well based on the historical use of the word at least. I think you're definitely referring more to the other part you were saying about being an evil dictator. But this is a point of semantics.

Another question for the whole thread: How do we know that the Emperor isn't dead already? His apparent godlike powers (mostly regarding much of the claims made in the Sisters of Battle codex- like acts of faith and the sainthood of many individuals) seem to suggest that he has transcended this plain of existence and is already in power in the warp.

Based on the Fluff. It was suggested that Shaman were around before or during human prehistoric (depends which version of the fluff). The original fluff stated that the Shaman were around millions of years ago. That is not so important. The Shaman always nurture and guide human, we can assume they helped human evolved like teaching us fire or toolmaking or love and peace. The Warp was also a peaceful place. This part must be strongly stated.

From that crux of it... we can assume that the Shaman role is to help humans. If the shaman died, then human will die. You ask me what was the reason they came together, well... the safety would be their #1, self preservation and #2, would be to continue helping human.

I think their action was and is always to help and protect human.

You want to view the Emperor as the Emperor then go ahead and you want to see him as a tyrant, then go ahead. I never view the Emperor as an Emperor. I see him as the New Man. I understand the New Man's mission and the Emperor is and was just another guise of his. When one of his guise in the past was a tyrant or a messiah, I don't get confuse with the small details in the scale of a few hundred years or even a thousand years of what that guise did... because his mission was beyond that. This hang up on the Emperor of what he did... was only a few hundred years in the New Man's long history.

Is the Emperor dead? I don't think so. However, I have no doubt that there is a Warp god Emperor but he is not yet ready to be reveal. Who is helping the sister? Either the New Man psychic power or the Warp god Emperor (new man doppelgänger ) is doing it.
Why do I think the Emperor is not dead?

Because the current Imperium is not what he wanted. He wanted his Imperium to be based on true science, this is not. When the Emperor choose to die...he will release the shamans souls and the warp god emperor will protect them....may be a new New Man will form or maybe many shamans will come to assist mankind. But the warp god Emperor will show himself and tell the Imperium that this is not the way. Since none of this has happened and it seems like the same gak everyday since 30,000 AD... I assume that the Emperor or the New Man is still sitting there on the Golden Throne plotting and waiting for the right time.

Reply by: Ignatius - click to view full reply 

53886

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 05:16:03

Post by: Ignatius

 david choe wrote:
Based on the Fluff. It was suggested that Shaman were around before or during human prehistoric (depends which version of the fluff). The original fluff stated that the Shaman were around millions of years ago. That is not so important. The Shaman always nurture and guide human, we can assume they helped human evolved like teaching us fire or toolmaking or love and peace. The Warp was also a peaceful place. This part must be strongly stated.

From that crux of it... we can assume that the Shaman role is to help humans. If the shaman died, then human will die. You ask me what was the reason they came together, well... the safety would their #1 self preservation and #2 would be to continue helping human.

I think their action was and is always to help and protect human.

Fair enough. I know just the jist of the story and am not an expert on this part of the background. I think trying to psycho analyze the actions and thoughts of thousands of shamans 50,000 years ago (give or take a few millenia) is nearly impossible. So it's conjecture at this point. But I don't think your interpretation is too far fetched.

 david choe wrote:
You want to view the Emperor as the Emperor then go ahead and you want to see him as a tyrant, then go ahead. I never view the Emperor as an Emperor. I see him as the New Man. I understand the New Man's mission and the Emperor is and was just another guise of his. When one of his guise in the past was a tyrant or a messiah, I don't get confuse with the small details in the scale of a few hundred years or even a thousand years of what that guise did... because his mission was beyond that. This hang up on the Emperor of what he did... was only a few hundred years in the New Man's long history.

Regardless of what this "New Man" truly is, he was the Emperor. Whether it is a guise or not doesn't change that it was a part of his being at one point or another. And about the tyrant thing- the true historical meaning of the word was Greek and basically equated to a singular leader. It was not necessarily a bad thing per se, but slowly the idea of a tyranny became remembered as a very bad rule. Anyways- What do you think was the "end state" the New Man was trying to achieve? What form or guise was truly him, and would he ever finally settle on a form to remain?

 david choe wrote:
Is the Emperor dead? I don't think so. However, I have no doubt that there is a Warp god Emperor but he is not yet ready to be reveal. Who is helping the sister? Either the New Man psychic power or the Warp god Emperor (new man doppelgänger ) is doing it.
Why do I think the Emperor is not dead?

Because the current Imperium is not what he wanted. He wanted his Imperium to be based on true science, this is not. When the Emperor choose to die...he will release the shamans souls and the warp god emperor will protect them....may be a new New Man will form or maybe many shamans will come to assist mankind. But the warp god Emperor will show himself and tell the Imperium that this is not the way. Since none of this has happen and it seems like the same gak everyday since 30,000 AD... I assume that the Emperor or the New Man is still sitting there on the Gold Throne plotting and waiting for the right time.

So you believe there is a physical New Man and a warp deity New Man? And if he is more powerful in his warp form wouldn't he think it more prudent to expend all his energy in this form to fight Chaos? What is his physical form doing now that couldn't be done from the Warp?

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 05:47:22

Post by: david choe

 Ignatius wrote:


Regardless of what this "New Man" truly is, he was the Emperor. Whether it is a guise or not doesn't change that it was a part of his being at one point or another. And about the tyrant thing- the true historical meaning of the word was Greek and basically equated to a singular leader. It was not necessarily a bad thing per se, but slowly the idea of a tyranny became remembered as a very bad rule. Anyways- What do you think was the "end state" the New Man was trying to achieve? What form or guise was truly him, and would he ever finally settle on a form to remain?

But that has always been my position and point. I keep using the word New Man because the Emperor is just a small guise in his long history as the New Man. The Emperor could be a killer or a tyrant… but the New Man is beyond that. Do you see that. So when I argue that The New Man on the Golden Throne is not a tyrant… he is not a tyrant. He is the New Man taking a guise as the Emperor and is stuck on the Golden Throne… he wouldn’t want people to remember him as that Guise… he had done so much for humanity! It is like if you were Jesus, then Atilla the hun, then Vlad the impaler, MLK, and last was Pol Pot… You don’t want people to remember you as Pol Pot when you know you did good as Jesus and MLK. The New Man has no true form for us reader to know. We don’t know. We know he took 1,000s. I don’t think he will choose any form to remain. Remember… he is the product of 1,000 shaman…The Shaman are the boss. I think the end game is … when the New Man’s mission and goal is completed… the New Man must die and release the Shaman so they can be free as it was always met to be.

 Ignatius wrote:

So you believe there is a physical New Man and a warp deity New Man? And if he is more powerful in his warp form wouldn't he think it more prudent to expend all his energy in this form to fight Chaos? What is his physical form doing now that couldn't be done from the Warp?

You almost got it.

There is a physical New Man (Emperor) on the golden throne.

The Warp deity is the Emperor (a doppelgänger of the Emperor - allies of the New Man). He is almost the same as the New Man, same goals and agenda… but it is not a New Man doppelgänger because mankind didn’t worship the New Man… they worship the Emperor. You understand?

Why is the New Man still at the GT? I guess The New Man is still on the GT because the Warp god Emperor is not powerful enough to take on chaos or his other complicated plan B is not ready for him to step down from the Golden Throne or die. I don’t know. May be … it is about to happen… this is why the GT is breaking. For all we know The warp god Emperor might just give the New Man a boost and resurrect him as a reborn Emperor for the New Man to continue with this guise. We just don’t know yet.

I think it is an exciting times for the Ecclesiarchy.

I just thought of something....
If all of my theory is true....
The New Man is really in trouble because the Warp god Emperor is being worship as the Emperor ... which is a bit of a order freak.. a tyrant. The New Man and the Shaman were not like this, they were free sprit being the Emperor was just a guise and not to be worship as in the Imperial Truth. I think the New Man wanted to create a new religion based on science and peace and love... but got the Emperor because ...he had to do as plan B....... So after the defeat of Chaos (if possible), looks like the New Man and the Shaman might have another fight with the god of Order. ...

Reply by: Jehan-reznor - click to view full reply 

57811

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 06:06:07

Post by: Jehan-reznor

The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 06:13:03

Post by: david choe

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

I don't think this is true because (as far as I know)... you can't keep the souls in the warp and claim them as your "vortex" in the warp if the Emperor is still not dead. So all the souls and emotions that is creating the Warp god Emperor is another being in the making, but is just like the Emperor... this is why I use the word doppelgänger.

Also, The Emperor is not The New Man true form...all the souls and worshiper of emotions goes to power the Emperor(New Man) doppelgänger - The Warp god of Order or god Emperor. They can not be the same person as the New Man.

Reply by: EngulfedObject - click to view full reply 

82643

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 06:16:37

Post by: EngulfedObject

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

Is there really a difference? In the end he will be an immensely powerful Warp entity. But probably something akin to the Eldar gods than the malevolent Chaos gods.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 06:22:28

Post by: david choe

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

Is there really a difference? In the end he will be an immensely powerful Warp entity. But probably something akin to the Eldar gods than the malevolent Chaos gods.

Yes,that is true.

Because this is grim dark... I just think that the Emperor god in the Warp is being worship in the wrong way... so I think the end result is a powerful tyrant god of Order that is just like the Emperor in life... which is not too good in my book. Too bad for man kind... if the New Man had his way... the god that human would be worshiping would be god of peace and love and science.... the harmony god for mankind. The way the Shamans wanted it to be.

Reply by: Jehan-reznor - click to view full reply 

57811

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 07:28:32

Post by: Jehan-reznor

 david choe wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

I don't think this is true because (as far as I know)... you can't keep the souls in the warp and claim them as your "vortex" in the warp if the Emperor is still not dead. So all the souls and emotions that is creating the Warp god Emperor is another being in the making, but is just like the Emperor... this is why I use the word doppelgänger.

Also, The Emperor is not The New Man true form...all the souls and worshiper of emotions goes to power the Emperor(New Man) doppelgänger - The Warp god of Order or god Emperor. They can not be the same person as the New Man.

The Emperors souls is strong enough to ward of warp predators, it is not souls that will strengthen him but the worship and adoration from his followers, it is only the dark gods that also crave souls. I think one of the reasons The emperor of mankind didn't want to be worshiped is because it would effect him in some way.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 07:44:18

Post by: david choe

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

I don't think this is true because (as far as I know)... you can't keep the souls in the warp and claim them as your "vortex" in the warp if the Emperor is still not dead. So all the souls and emotions that is creating the Warp god Emperor is another being in the making, but is just like the Emperor... this is why I use the word doppelgänger.

Also, The Emperor is not The New Man true form...all the souls and worshiper of emotions goes to power the Emperor(New Man) doppelgänger - The Warp god of Order or god Emperor. They can not be the same person as the New Man.

The Emperors souls is strong enough to ward of warp predators, it is not souls that will strengthen him but the worship and adoration from his followers, it is only the dark gods that also crave souls. I think one of the reasons The emperor of mankind didn't want to be worshiped is because it would effect him in some way.

True that the Emperor soul is strong. But his soul is made up of 1,000s shaman. The Shaman were Chaos #1 enemy that is not talk about very much anymore.... the Emperor is the last of the Shaman. His soul is the most prized by Chaos... they will eat him. There is no way the Emperor could defend this. This is the reason why the New Man was created... so the shaman could never have to die and be eaten by chaos. Shaman made the New Man to escape Chaos. The only way for the New Man or the Shaman souls to survive is they must have a protector in the Warp. This protector I think is the Emperor warp god which they didn't want to create in this version... but it was better than nothing.


This reinforce the Imperial Truth... the New Man did not want people to worship the Emperor because the New Man didn't want a warp god of the Emperor. The Emperor was just a guise of the New Man and a tyrant one at that. The last thing the New Man wants is a Warp god of Order that is a tyrant and fanatical. I really believe that if all the plans had worked out.. the New Man (Emperor) will issue a dogma of worshiping a god in a shamanistic ways... so they can create a Shaman warp god. Remember the shaman is the New Man.. the New Man do not want to be the Emperor forever. No point in making a Emperor god.

Reply by: the ancient - click to view full reply 

73611

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 08:45:29

Post by: the ancient

Like you say the emp could not defend himself from chaos, but using humanity as shield, he could buy himself some time.

Tyrant/humble man, they could well be just what was needed at the time. Maybe after 40000 years he's forgotten his original purpose. Everyone know's it doesn't take 40 day's for politician's to start serving their own agenda. 1000 personalities doesn't make for a good anything.

Maybe all the steps he took along the way were just to preserve himself, just like the shaman's. the road to hell and all that. He wouldn't be the first human that wanted to be a god.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the minute he trucked with chaos, to obtain knowledge/science. Was the moment the warp really started paying attention.

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

39550

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 10:29:02

Post by: Psienesis

The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 11:46:43

Post by: david choe

the ancient wrote:
Like you say the emp could not defend himself from chaos, but using humanity as shield, he could buy himself some time.

Tyrant/humble man, they could well be just what was needed at the time. Maybe after 40000 years he's forgotten his original purpose. Everyone know's it doesn't take 40 day's for politician's to start serving their own agenda. 1000 personalities doesn't make for a good anything.

Maybe all the steps he took along the way were just to preserve himself, just like the shaman's. the road to hell and all that. He wouldn't be the first human that wanted to be a god.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the minute he trucked with chaos, to obtain knowledge/science. Was the moment the warp really started paying attention.

I'm not sure about this....

The Shaman were people who have lived thousands up on thousands of years and they were content naturalistic and peaceful people. The fluff stated that they help and guide humanity for thousands of years and they themselves seems peaceful and balanced people. From what I read about the shaman, they weren't slaver or vampire or leech or ambitious power seeker like being. They seems to enjoy balance of nature and enjoy their unique power of reincarnation of their souls.

My thoughts on this is that the shaman were human who have special psychic ability and can reincarnate into other humans. To populate more Shaman... they need male and female shaman to produce human baby who is also a new shaman with brand new shaman soul (not other shaman soul who were reincarnated). This is how I think their race is populated.

They are all immortal from the soul. Meaning that the live and die as normal people, but will be reincarnated as another human with their full memory from the past.

When Chaos start eating them... they die permanently .... this is heavy for them.

They can populate more shaman to continue to out live the death rate... but they do not want that. That would means that each of them would only have one human life time.

I don't think The New Man ever forget his purpose. We forget his purpose. The New Man are Shamans... they have no intention to be a conquer or any of this... they have been around more than 50,000 years...I would guess some Shaman who is in the Emperor might be 100,000 years old or more.

Remember that the Emperor is one of Guise of the New Man. This Emperor was only about 5% of the New Man's Guise. The Emperor before the Golden Throne only exist for about 500 - 1,000 years. What I mean by this is ... if you look at Emperor life during the middle ages... (lets pretend he was Vlad the Impalers) and our game and hobby takes place during that period... you would assume that Vlad was his last and final form or he was corrupted with power... but that would be wrong. The New Man took Vlad as a Guise for a short period of his long life to do whatever needed to be done as Vlad... as wrong or evil as we think that was. He did it for his ultimate goal.

It makes no narrative sense for us to assume that the Emperor who is the New Man got corrupt with power... he had too many guise as tyrant with power in his past history.. and all of them were just anther identities for his long mission. The Emperor fit the pattern of just anther character that needed to be play. Everything about the Emperor goes against the character of the Shaman.. I really do not see this as his true self at all. To me, the Emperor is just another guise no different than any tyrant of the past human history.

I don't think the 4 chaos gods forget their number 1 enemy... the Shaman... the very last one. This is why the Emperor must and can not die during 30,000 AD or he would be consume by the gods right away. No chance to be reborn. Now... if there is that Warp god of the Emperor in the Warp... he will protect the Shaman souls or the souls of the New Man or...who you have been calling the Emperor.

Reply by: Poly Ranger - click to view full reply 

77846

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 11:51:43

Post by: Poly Ranger

Magnus broke the GT along with the human part of the webway. I'd imagine that's why it's not healing him properly.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 12:33:12

Post by: david choe

 Psienesis wrote:
The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

I love that story and I think it really reflect the heart of real life people. RL people with real faith hated the Emperor, while RL atheist agreed with the Emperor. Almost down to the core and it tells us that our real life bias also follows our fantasy fiction.

I think there were false narrative in this story from the author's background... it stated that people needed faith and a god to worship. There are many people and nations that have atheist as the majority in the population and disagree with Uriah. I think China, UK, and France are some of them.

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

39550

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 19:35:45

Post by: Psienesis

RL atheists don't necessarily agree with the Emperor, no. A certain kind of rabid atheist, who needs to proclaim to the world that they are atheists and that religion is terribad... they might back the Emperor.

Reply by: Talon of Anathrax - click to view full reply 

91428

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 19:37:23

Post by: Talon of Anathrax

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

I love that story and I think it really reflect the heart of real life people. RL people with real faith hated the Emperor, while RL atheist agreed with the Emperor. Almost down to the core and it tells us that our real life bias also follows our fantasy fiction.

I think there were false narrative in this story from the author's background... it stated that people needed faith and a god to worship. There are many people and nations that have atheist as the majority in the population and disagree with Uriah. I think China, UK, and France are some of them.

Personally, I'm an atheist. However, I've got to mention that most of the french population is not atheist I believe: very few of them actually practise a religion, but if you asked them, only about 30% replied they were atheist (I can Source this if you want).
France is one of the most atheist countries in the world though.
Here in France, being "laic" (It's a special concept, but it's basically secularism) is seen as very important.
So everyone might be catholic or muslim or whatever the two main religions in France), but they'd all be so secular you'd never notice, unless they're in the small part of the population that actually practices a religion regularly.

That's been a big debate actually, as the French are all wondering why the jihadists didn't just integrate and become secular like everyone else. the answer is probably economic, but you know, people just seem to turn it into a debate about islam...

I kinda wish it could be debated IRL as easily as in The Last Church

Reply by: the ancient - click to view full reply 

73611

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 20:03:01

Post by: the ancient

feth it ill bite, Mr choe. It's way ot. but whatever
As far as i remember humans were created and forgotten by the old one's. Left in the dust as failure's in the great scheme of things. We sure got them ey.. ey...
A naturalistic and peaceful people now ,It was a person last time. A naturalistic and peaceful people does not make a galaxy spanning empire. Unless it's a plague. A hungry and thirsty people makes a galaxy spanning empire.

As long as china makes the gak i want, they can think what they like. The poms.. mmkay. No one, i repeat no one, cares what the french think. Stupid Uriah, Should have kicked that bitch to the curb, same as Arthur.

The shamen aren't any different from a davinite's tbh. There's your shamen. Chaos worshippers to the core.

People do need something to worship.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 20:54:08

Post by: david choe

 Psienesis wrote:
RL atheists don't necessarily agree with the Emperor, no. A certain kind of rabid atheist, who needs to proclaim to the world that they are atheists and that religion is terribad... they might back the Emperor.

See that is not a true statement....you are interjecting. I have an atheist friend who is not rabid or anti-religion and agreed with what the Emperor did.

But lets not derail the topic and get into politics of religion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

I love that story and I think it really reflect the heart of real life people. RL people with real faith hated the Emperor, while RL atheist agreed with the Emperor. Almost down to the core and it tells us that our real life bias also follows our fantasy fiction.

I think there were false narrative in this story from the author's background... it stated that people needed faith and a god to worship. There are many people and nations that have atheist as the majority in the population and disagree with Uriah. I think China, UK, and France are some of them.

Personally, I'm an atheist. However, I've got to mention that most of the french population is not atheist I believe: very few of them actually practise a religion, but if you asked them, only about 30% replied they were atheist (I can Source this if you want).
France is one of the most atheist countries in the world though.
Here in France, being "laic" (It's a special concept, but it's basically secularism) is seen as very important.
So everyone might be catholic or muslim or whatever the two main religions in France), but they'd all be so secular you'd never notice, unless they're in the small part of the population that actually practices a religion regularly.

That's been a big debate actually, as the French are all wondering why the jihadists didn't just integrate and become secular like everyone else. the answer is probably economic, but you know, people just seem to turn it into a debate about islam...

I kinda wish it could be debated IRL as easily as in The Last Church

You are right, according to the source.. France is 40% atheist... which is really high and the UK is about 55%. Vietnam is about 90%. What my point was... the writer made that statement from the Priest POV that people needed faith and religion. Which is false.. in RL many many people do not need it at all is my point. I understand that it was just the priest POV, but the writer and many gamers keep using this story as some kind of social commentary and I disagree with the premise. Many people do not give a hoot and prefer there were no religion at all. John Lenon ... Imagine.

Reply by: Poly Ranger - click to view full reply 

77846

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 20:59:25

Post by: Poly Ranger

@the ancient
Errrm... I don't need anything to worship. I personally find worship a complete waste of time that could be better spent doing something else.

So please don't speak for everybody.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 21:17:42

Post by: david choe

the ancient wrote:
feth it ill bite, Mr choe. It's way ot. but whatever
As far as i remember humans were created and forgotten by the old one's. Left in the dust as failure's in the great scheme of things. We sure got them ey.. ey...
A naturalistic and peaceful people now ,It was a person last time. A naturalistic and peaceful people does not make a galaxy spanning empire. Unless it's a plague. A hungry and thirsty people makes a galaxy spanning empire.

As long as china makes the gak i want, they can think what they like. The poms.. mmkay. No one, i repeat no one, cares what the french think. Stupid Uriah, Should have kicked that bitch to the curb, same as Arthur.

The shamen aren't any different from a davinite's tbh. There's your shamen. Chaos worshippers to the core.

People do need something to worship.

No... human were not created by the Old Ones. I could be wrong, but I'm 85% sure because Old one left the galaxy before human were around.

Even if the Old ones did created human, what does that got to do with anything?

I told you about my example of the New Man as Vlad... You keep viewing the Emperor in a narrow view. If the New Man was any of the great world conqueror (which according to the fluff he was some of them), he did the same thing as the Emperor... just back then on Earth.. it was a smaller scale. But none the less effective with in the premise. The New Man became the Emperor because the game is bigger, the scale is bigger... from one planet to galaxy of planets... you can't be soft. As the New Man guises goes.. there is no different between being the Emperor or Julius Caesar. He ruled with an iron fist and just like his other guises, he will move on when this role as a tyrant is done.

Wow... real smooth with your social skill there.. I'm sure some French gamer are a bit ticked.

People do not need something to worship.. ...

The dumbest part in the Uriah debate is that ... I would have told Uriah.. hey man.. you can keep doing good deeds as you always have and teach people about science... you do not need to pray and learn the BS story of God. You know God was just the Emperor... he tricked you... I mean, I wonder when the Vikings finally got converted to Christianity ... did their temple priest or shaman or whatever insist they stay in their hall and keep worshiping Thor and watch their temple burned? Once you discover that your religion is false ... you have to be a fool or an idiot to continue with the cause. Who are you talking to... you know you are talking to thin air... wake up bitch.

Reply by: Majsharan - click to view full reply 

50606

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/06 22:05:10

Post by: Majsharan

Devil's advocate here. When is the last time anyone as actually seen the emperors body and described in the fluff (in the real stuff preferably, Black library isn't regulated enough)?


If no one or its been 6000 years then we don't really know its deteriorating as there as been no verification.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/07 02:23:27

Post by: david choe

Majsharan wrote:
Devil's advocate here. When is the last time anyone as actually seen the emperors body and described in the fluff (in the real stuff preferably, Black library isn't regulated enough)?


If no one or its been 6000 years then we don't really know its deteriorating as there as been no verification.

I think I've read about his in the BRB last edition that the Golden Throne is failing by out of universe for the reader.

Reply by: Majsharan - click to view full reply 

50606

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/09 16:26:35

Post by: Majsharan

Yeah the BRB does say its deteriorating but it doesn't actually base that on any eyewitness accounts or anything.

Reply by: david choe - click to view full reply 

92786

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/09 16:37:43

Post by: david choe

Majsharan wrote:
Yeah the BRB does say its deteriorating but it doesn't actually base that on any eyewitness accounts or anything.

True.... but that is out of universe, which is the most important.

Reply by: Alcibiades - click to view full reply 

86450

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 11:16:05

Post by: Alcibiades

People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

Reply by: koooaei - click to view full reply 

81025

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 11:19:39

Post by: koooaei

Alcibiades wrote:
...emotions, not belief.

I thought it's the same thing.

Reply by: natpri771 - click to view full reply 

89994

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 11:38:00

Post by: natpri771

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
So, the Emperor has been around for roughly 48000 years.

So before he was interred into the Golden Throne he was alive for 40K years...

why is he deteriorating on the throne then?

Whats causing a perpetual to die or die slowly?

1. He's a corpse with a soul inside him
2. The Golden Throne is failing

Reply by: Deadshot - click to view full reply 

46864

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 15:43:01

Post by: Deadshot

Alcibiades wrote:
People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

Belief leads to powerful emotions, especially where religion is concerned.

Reply by: Swabby - click to view full reply 

32851

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 18:19:49

Post by: Swabby

You know I always thought of the emperor as a militant atheist. This thread has shown me that not only was he never a militant atheist, but how wrong atheists are in the 40k universe.

I now believe that this is a deep flaw in the fluff. The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

Atheists can be just as irrational and full of emotion as their theist brothers.

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

39550

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 18:32:58

Post by: Psienesis

 Swabby wrote:
You know I always thought of the emperor as a militant atheist. This thread has shown me that not only was he never a militant atheist, but how wrong atheists are in the 40k universe.

I now believe that this is a deep flaw in the fluff. The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

Atheists can be just as irrational and full of emotion as their theist brothers.

Indeed.

There's lots of flaws in the "Imperial Truth" from an outside perspective. The main being that humans aren't the only sentient species in the galaxy, so even if they stopped believing in the Chaos Gods, there's plenty of other species out there. Another being that the Emperor didn't seem to be all that anti-theist. After all, there were billions of people on Terra during the GC who were venerating him as a living god, and he did nothing to stop or discourage this practice. Possibly a "better they worship me than something else" philosophy, possibly a "this is what I wanted all along" angle, or maybe even "I'll deal with that later I don't have the time right now" (even though he took the time to go all the way to Monarchia and deal with the Word Bearers... for reasons in which religion is a trapping, not a cause.). And, further, the pursuit of science is the pursuit of knowledge, which is the domain of Tzeentch. So even if you somehow got rid of the Chaos Gods, you'd still be feeding one of them in your quest for knowledge... and if you wanted to make something perfect, then you're now feeding Slaanesh... so in no way was the GC or the Imperial Truth ever going to end the Chaos Gods. What it might have done (possibly) is supplant the Chaos Gods with the Emperor.

Reply by: Shidank - click to view full reply 

93103

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 20:54:54

Post by: Shidank

Alcibiades wrote:
People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

This does seem like splitting hairs a bit. Faith can be considered a powerful emotion. The definition will vary from person to person, but I think it's futile to say it doesn't count as a strong human 'feel'.

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

39550

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/12 22:25:30

Post by: Psienesis

 Shidank wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

This does seem like splitting hairs a bit. Faith can be considered a powerful emotion. The definition will vary from person to person, but I think it's futile to say it doesn't count as a strong human 'feel'.

Yep, this. People actively believing in the Emperor's divinity, and acting on that faith, from the Sisters of Battle down to the average Imperial Joe working in a mine on some Feudal World, will cause a reaction from the Warp which, yes, might coalesce into a sentience that will be a new Warp God.

Reply by: Rusty1990 - click to view full reply 

93908

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 02:49:03

Post by: Rusty1990

 Psienesis wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
You know I always thought of the emperor as a militant atheist. This thread has shown me that not only was he never a militant atheist, but how wrong atheists are in the 40k universe.

I now believe that this is a deep flaw in the fluff. The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

Atheists can be just as irrational and full of emotion as their theist brothers.

Indeed.

There's lots of flaws in the "Imperial Truth" from an outside perspective. The main being that humans aren't the only sentient species in the galaxy, so even if they stopped believing in the Chaos Gods, there's plenty of other species out there. Another being that the Emperor didn't seem to be all that anti-theist. After all, there were billions of people on Terra during the GC who were venerating him as a living god, and he did nothing to stop or discourage this practice. Possibly a "better they worship me than something else" philosophy, possibly a "this is what I wanted all along" angle, or maybe even "I'll deal with that later I don't have the time right now" (even though he took the time to go all the way to Monarchia and deal with the Word Bearers... for reasons in which religion is a trapping, not a cause.). And, further, the pursuit of science is the pursuit of knowledge, which is the domain of Tzeentch. So even if you somehow got rid of the Chaos Gods, you'd still be feeding one of them in your quest for knowledge... and if you wanted to make something perfect, then you're now feeding Slaanesh... so in no way was the GC or the Imperial Truth ever going to end the Chaos Gods. What it might have done (possibly) is supplant the Chaos Gods with the Emperor.

You have a good point, but provide no solution. The Emperor have been dealing with this problem for 30,000 years and the Imperial truth might be the best solution for a difficult problem. The gods will always get the emotions and man got nothing in return, at least with Imperial Truth, they get science. Necron science created pylons to block Chaos...science is the key to beat Chaos.

Reply by: insaniak - click to view full reply 

99

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 03:37:52

Post by: insaniak

Majsharan wrote:
Devil's advocate here. When is the last time anyone as actually seen the emperors body and described in the fluff (in the real stuff preferably, Black library isn't regulated enough)?.

The Black Library is the 'real stuff'... GW don't differentiate between fluff sources.


In older fluff at least, people are still admitted for 'audiences' with the Emperor, although the queue is quite long and some apparently spend their entire lives waiting in line. Inquisitor Draco gets into the throne room by posing as a supplicant in the Inquisition War trilogy, and has a little one-on-one time in which he discovers that the Emperor is a little messed up, and his personality is fractured into multiple different streams to handle everything he needs to do.



Beyond that, I'm not aware of anything in-universe that refers to his condition beyond mentioning that the throne is slowly failing.

Reply by: Rusty1990 - click to view full reply 

93908

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 04:41:15

Post by: Rusty1990

 insaniak wrote:

Majsharan wrote:
Devil's advocate here. When is the last time anyone as actually seen the emperors body and described in the fluff (in the real stuff preferably, Black library isn't regulated enough)?.

The Black Library is the 'real stuff'... GW don't differentiate between fluff sources.


In older fluff at least, people are still admitted for 'audiences' with the Emperor, although the queue is quite long and some apparently spend their entire lives waiting in line. Inquisitor Draco gets into the throne room by posing as a supplicant in the Inquisition War trilogy, and has a little one-on-one time in which he discovers that the Emperor is a little messed up, and his personality is fractured into multiple different streams to handle everything he needs to do.



Beyond that, I'm not aware of anything in-universe that refers to his condition beyond mentioning that the throne is slowly failing.

Any fluff mentioning Emperor as a corpse on the throne like the art work?

Reply by: koooaei - click to view full reply 

81025

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 05:10:52

Post by: koooaei

 Swabby wrote:
The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

He probably wanted humanity to not waste perecious time on rituals, supersticions and church-buildings but do something useful instead. But humanity screwed it up and turned good intentions into a religion once again.

Reply by: insaniak - click to view full reply 

99

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 05:46:42

Post by: insaniak

Rusty1990 wrote:

Any fluff mentioning Emperor as a corpse on the throne like the art work?

It's been a while since I read the Inquisition War trilogy, but I'm fairly sure it describes him as looking a little threadbare, yes. Draco's communication with him is all psychic, and even that is supposed to be very, very rare.

Reply by: Deadshot - click to view full reply 

46864

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 07:51:20

Post by: Deadshot

Rusty1990 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
You know I always thought of the emperor as a militant atheist. This thread has shown me that not only was he never a militant atheist, but how wrong atheists are in the 40k universe.

I now believe that this is a deep flaw in the fluff. The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

Atheists can be just as irrational and full of emotion as their theist brothers.

Indeed.

There's lots of flaws in the "Imperial Truth" from an outside perspective. The main being that humans aren't the only sentient species in the galaxy, so even if they stopped believing in the Chaos Gods, there's plenty of other species out there. Another being that the Emperor didn't seem to be all that anti-theist. After all, there were billions of people on Terra during the GC who were venerating him as a living god, and he did nothing to stop or discourage this practice. Possibly a "better they worship me than something else" philosophy, possibly a "this is what I wanted all along" angle, or maybe even "I'll deal with that later I don't have the time right now" (even though he took the time to go all the way to Monarchia and deal with the Word Bearers... for reasons in which religion is a trapping, not a cause.). And, further, the pursuit of science is the pursuit of knowledge, which is the domain of Tzeentch. So even if you somehow got rid of the Chaos Gods, you'd still be feeding one of them in your quest for knowledge... and if you wanted to make something perfect, then you're now feeding Slaanesh... so in no way was the GC or the Imperial Truth ever going to end the Chaos Gods. What it might have done (possibly) is supplant the Chaos Gods with the Emperor.

You have a good point, but provide no solution. The Emperor have been dealing with this problem for 30,000 years and the Imperial truth might be the best solution for a difficult problem. The gods will always get the emotions and man got nothing in return, at least with Imperial Truth, they get science. Necron science created pylons to block Chaos...science is the key to beat Chaos.

If humanity doesn't believe or know about Chaos but dedicate their actions to The Emperor as a Warp Spirit then all their actions would go to the Emperor. Look at the Orks, all of whom's fightingf powers Gork and Mork when by rights it should give Khorne a hit like cocaine and red bull.

Reply by: koooaei - click to view full reply 

81025

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 07:57:53

Post by: koooaei

 Deadshot wrote:

If humanity doesn't believe or know about Chaos but dedicate their actions to The Emperor as a Warp Spirit then all their actions would go to the Emperor. Look at the Orks, all of whom's fightingf powers Gork and Mork when by rights it should give Khorne a hit like cocaine and red bull.

It doesn't cause orks are not bloodthirsty or hateful. They don't kill out of rage or something. They just love a good scrap!

Tyranids are not feeding Khorne either. Probably for the same reason. Just replace the word "scrap" with a word "meal".

Reply by: Deadshot - click to view full reply 

46864

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/13 08:40:09

Post by: Deadshot

 koooaei wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

If humanity doesn't believe or know about Chaos but dedicate their actions to The Emperor as a Warp Spirit then all their actions would go to the Emperor. Look at the Orks, all of whom's fightingf powers Gork and Mork when by rights it should give Khorne a hit like cocaine and red bull.

It doesn't cause orks are not bloodthirsty or hateful. They don't kill out of rage or something. They just love a good scrap!

Tyranids are not feeding Khorne either. Probably for the same reason. Just replace the word "scrap" with a word "meal".

I wòuld say they are pretty bloodthristy. Plus, Khorne isn't just about rage, the act of killing and war fuels him.

Reply by: koooaei - click to view full reply 

81025

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/16 05:31:21

Post by: koooaei

 Deadshot wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

If humanity doesn't believe or know about Chaos but dedicate their actions to The Emperor as a Warp Spirit then all their actions would go to the Emperor. Look at the Orks, all of whom's fightingf powers Gork and Mork when by rights it should give Khorne a hit like cocaine and red bull.

It doesn't cause orks are not bloodthirsty or hateful. They don't kill out of rage or something. They just love a good scrap!

Tyranids are not feeding Khorne either. Probably for the same reason. Just replace the word "scrap" with a word "meal".

I wòuld say they are pretty bloodthristy. Plus, Khorne isn't just about rage, the act of killing and war fuels him.

Are you bloodthirsty for killing a mosquito?

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

39550

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/16 10:41:43

Post by: Psienesis

Rusty1990 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
You know I always thought of the emperor as a militant atheist. This thread has shown me that not only was he never a militant atheist, but how wrong atheists are in the 40k universe.

I now believe that this is a deep flaw in the fluff. The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

Atheists can be just as irrational and full of emotion as their theist brothers.

Indeed.

There's lots of flaws in the "Imperial Truth" from an outside perspective. The main being that humans aren't the only sentient species in the galaxy, so even if they stopped believing in the Chaos Gods, there's plenty of other species out there. Another being that the Emperor didn't seem to be all that anti-theist. After all, there were billions of people on Terra during the GC who were venerating him as a living god, and he did nothing to stop or discourage this practice. Possibly a "better they worship me than something else" philosophy, possibly a "this is what I wanted all along" angle, or maybe even "I'll deal with that later I don't have the time right now" (even though he took the time to go all the way to Monarchia and deal with the Word Bearers... for reasons in which religion is a trapping, not a cause.). And, further, the pursuit of science is the pursuit of knowledge, which is the domain of Tzeentch. So even if you somehow got rid of the Chaos Gods, you'd still be feeding one of them in your quest for knowledge... and if you wanted to make something perfect, then you're now feeding Slaanesh... so in no way was the GC or the Imperial Truth ever going to end the Chaos Gods. What it might have done (possibly) is supplant the Chaos Gods with the Emperor.

You have a good point, but provide no solution. The Emperor have been dealing with this problem for 30,000 years and the Imperial truth might be the best solution for a difficult problem. The gods will always get the emotions and man got nothing in return, at least with Imperial Truth, they get science. Necron science created pylons to block Chaos...science is the key to beat Chaos.

Tzeentch is the god of Knowledge. Science is the pursuit of knowledge. One feeds the other. Slaanesh is the god of art, perfection, perversion, vice, and obsession. Mad scientists, of which there are plenty in history, are fixated on their obsessions. Even scientists who are not mad can have their own obsessions, their personal quests for perfect understanding and so forth. For Chaos, all things are a means unto an end.

What the Necrons have done is create technological devices that hedge away the Warp. They have not "beat Chaos", they've simply refused to fight it. Of course, they sacrificed everything of their culture in doing so. Was it worth it? Signs point to "no, not really". The number of sentient, thinking Necrons in the galaxy is less than the population of a single Imperial World... and of those Necrons, not a single one of them is a philosopher or artist.

Reply by: BlackTalos - click to view full reply 

81346

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/03/16 11:07:03

Post by: BlackTalos

 Psienesis wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

This does seem like splitting hairs a bit. Faith can be considered a powerful emotion. The definition will vary from person to person, but I think it's futile to say it doesn't count as a strong human 'feel'.

Yep, this. People actively believing in the Emperor's divinity, and acting on that faith, from the Sisters of Battle down to the average Imperial Joe working in a mine on some Feudal World, will cause a reaction from the Warp which, yes, might coalesce into a sentience that will be a new Warp God.

I am absolutely appalling at referencing the fluff, but from memory, i thought that the Emperor was (or thought himself at least) on equal footing as the Warp Gods. Or that he was very close at least, and that this was related to the Terran Webway and "Warp Crusade" he seemed to be planing which was completely forgotten after the HH.

If he does coalesce into an entity "just as powerful" as a new Warp God, i'd say that the Emperor would not be very far from what he was. And linking the two outcomes (regenerate + Spawn a Warp God) as pretty much the same outcome: he comes back, 50/50 chance he's stronger than before or just the perpetual he used to be (which is not far off - but if he returns to infant stage, might get tricky...)

Reply by: chazz huggins - click to view full reply 

89023

Why is the Emperor's body deteriorating on the Golden Throne? @ 2015/04/07 07:07:43

Post by: chazz huggins

Why does he have a robotic eye and why only on one eye answer cus it looks cool