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Post by: david choe
Where to start....
The thread about the emperor body thread was closed because I was being accused as making stuff up and other stated that Emperor corps should be giant 10 ft and can't be 6 ft man size.
I told people that 10 Ft was the Omega theory or E was keeping his last stage of his life size body as a giant. I don't buy this theory.
My theory was the Alpha theory.. the beginning of his life. Which he was born as a normal man size 6 ft tall and he was a peaceful man and very humble. For 38,000 years from 8,000 BC to about 30,000 AD... he was a humble and teaching man to be better. Yes, he was a warrior at times... but for most.. he was a religious leader, Messiah, scientist... etc...
Then My ancient Alien thread got closed also... because I thought the E must have helped those civilization too.
I got bashed for it... Most of you don't know who the Emperor really was I guess. So now I will proof to you.
We can agree to disagree about which body he choose in the end, Alpha or Omega... that is fine.... but my point is valid.
Here is a small part from Lost and the Damned... THE ORIGINAL STORY OF THE NEW MAN.. THE EMPEROR....
NOTICE: Humble and peaceful were used a lot to describe this NEW MAN the Emperor. He was made from the Shamans ... who were peaceful and humble people.
The Emperor of 40,000 is but a small part of his life... he spent more than 70% of his life as humble servant of humanity.
MOD... Please read the content....
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Post by: david choe
This other part….
Read the top part…
FOR ILLUMINATION OF THE READER….
E might want to be remember as who he always wanted to be, which was a humble and peaceful man. Not the warrior and killer of worlds that he was forced to be. It is a sad story….
He was born as a normal man with power… but NORMAL… not Giant.
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Post by: KhorneIsLove
Your arguments are all personal theory bro with little or no source in the Cannon. If you like it and want to roll with it good for you but insisting its real in post after post just feeds the trolls. Also ide hardly consider someone created via the sacrifice and life force of a thousand(s) shamans a "normal man with power".
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Post by: lcmiracle
He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?
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Post by: david choe
 KhorneIsLove wrote:Your arguments are all personal theory bro with little or no source in the Cannon. If you like it and want to roll with it good for you but insisting its real in post after post just feeds the trolls. Also ide hardly consider someone created via the sacrifice and life force of a thousand(s) shamans a "normal man with power".
Are you kidding me?
Then those people should have respected my personal opinion right? I didn't bash their view... as I stated many times... two different views.
What do you mean.. not cannon... it is right there.... he was born as NORMAL man. He was peaceful and humble..for the most part of his life of 38,000 years...not the dictator or a overlord tyrant that you guys made him out to be. He spent about 250 years or so as a tyrant because he had too.
38,000 years
vs.
Starting Imperium years... while alive and great crusade ...how many years was that? 200 - 500 years??
You think about it. Automatically Appended Next Post:  lcmiracle wrote:He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?
OK, did you read the story... you got the idea of tyrant and overlord from reading that or.... humble and peaceful and kind.
Please just let it go with this.
He was born normal. He lived normal. It didn't say he was hiding his Bigfoot size body at all. Even if he was a Bigfoot... he was normal for the most part...
Are you saying after he left his family... he grew to be 100 ft tall and hide his size with magic? Come on.. you are making up stuff... just read as is...
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Post by: lcmiracle
 david choe wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: lcmiracle wrote:He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?
OK, did you read the story... you got the idea of tyrant and overlord from reading that or.... humble and peaceful and kind. Please just let it go with this. He was born normal. He lived normal. It didn't say he was hiding his Bigfoot size body at all. Even if he was a Bigfoot... he was normal for the most part... Are you saying after he left his family... he grew to be 100 ft tall and hide his size with magic? Come on.. you are making up stuff... just read as is...
I read the story as it is, and all it said is he adopted normal human guises, many of them humble and forgotten, others glamorous and took their marks upon human history. Nowhere did it suggest the Emperor was a humble man or that he wanted to be remembered as such. In fact, given it is the monumental guises he used that are remembered, I could easily claim it's the glory and fame that he want remembered. Your claim about the Emperor's wants and his innermost psyche is unfounded. As for his actual physical attributes: a being with millions of year to grow can be anything. A normal human infant can grow from a foot and a half to adults 5, 6, sometimes even 7, 8 feet. Their infantile appearances reflects scant little about their adult forms. What the Emperor is physically is determined by the fluff that says it. And the new fluff says he is more commonly seen as tall as his primarchs. That's the measurement we take against the current size of the Emperor in the fluff. Now let me make this clear to you, kid: the thing you are quoting is from a book intended for the 2nd edition Warhammer 40K, it has the Star Child Theory in it, making whatever is in that book that hasn't been reaffirmed canonically ambiguous. Was the Emperor a giant of a man in that book? Maybe yes, maybe not, it is never stated. But he is, or at least described as one now. Fluff changes, many such stories have come and gone. In the HH novels they are giants amongst men, towering over astartes and the like. The Emperor is as such that The Emperor would terra-form an entire planet into a perfect sphere just so he could have all his legions gather and march and hold the ceremony to make Horus Warmaster.
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Post by: KhorneIsLove
david choe wrote:
What do you mean.. not cannon... it is right there.... he was born as NORMAL man. He was peaceful and humble..for the most part of his life of 38,000 years...not the dictator or a overlord tyrant that you guys made him out to be. He spent about 250 years or so as a tyrant because he had too.
No, it says his parents and siblings were normal and that they had no reason to think him extraordinary.
As for being marked as a tyrant/despot, the shoe fits. Even if it was ultimately for a (questionably) good cause he got his hands DIRTY. He stole power from "evil" entities then was shocked when those entities intervened. He allowed the corruption of his sons knowing they would likely be tempted by the powers that wrought them. His methods and those of his advocates where genocidal. On top of all that he paved the way for the despicable, backwards bureaucracy that the Empire has become.
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:The thread about the emperor body thread was closed because I was being accused as making stuff up and other stated that Emperor corps should be giant 10 ft and can't be 6 ft man size.
No, that thread was closed because it was a train-wreck. I'm willing to give this one the benefit of the doubt so long as things remain civil and intelligible.
My theory was the Alpha theory.. the beginning of his life. Which he was born as a normal man size 6 ft tall and he was a peaceful man and very humble. For 38,000 years from 8,000 BC to about 30,000 AD... he was a humble and teaching man to be better. Yes, he was a warrior at times... but for most.. he was a religious leader, Messiah, scientist... etc...
The text you posted says otherwise.
Specifically "...adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature."
Which suggests rather plainly that he was anything but a 'normal man'.
The thing is, the backstory of 40K has changed significantly since Rogue Trader. The Emperor wasn't originally portrayed as the gigantic monster that he later became... but neither were regular Space Marines. From 2nd edition onwards, the fluff has shifted towards less suble and more grandiose. The Primarchs became towering lords amongst their supermen, and the Emperor had to be more impressive even than his Primarchs.
So however he started out, the Emperor is not a 'normal man'.
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Post by: david choe
lcmiracle wrote: david choe wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lcmiracle wrote:He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?
OK, did you read the story... you got the idea of tyrant and overlord from reading that or.... humble and peaceful and kind.
Please just let it go with this.
He was born normal. He lived normal. It didn't say he was hiding his Bigfoot size body at all. Even if he was a Bigfoot... he was normal for the most part...
Are you saying after he left his family... he grew to be 100 ft tall and hide his size with magic? Come on.. you are making up stuff... just read as is...
I read the story as it is, and all it said is he adopted normal human guises, many of them humble and forgotten, others glamorous and took their marks upon human history. Nowhere did it suggest the Emperor was a humble man or that he wanted to be remembered as such. In fact, given it is the monumental guises he used that are remembered, I could easily claim it's the glory and fame that he want remembered. Your claim about the Emperor's wants and his innermost psyche is unfounded.
Now let me make this clear to you, kid: the thing you are quoting is from a book intended for the 2nd edition Warhammer 40K, it has the Star Child Theory in it, making whatever is in that book to be canonically ambiguous. Was the Emperor a giant of a man in that book? Maybe not. But he is, or at least described as one now. Fluff changes, many such stories have come and gone. In the HH novels they are giants amongst men, towering over astartes and the like. The Emperor is as such that The Emperor would terra-form an entire planet into a perfect sphere just so he could have all his legions march gather and hold the ceremony to make Horus Warmaster.
First....
"Using his ancient wisdom to spread efficient government .... and PEACE"
"Many of the guises he adopted were HUMBLE, ...."
This is an out of universe explanation... it tells us what he wanted and what his motives where. I mean... seriously .... any 9th grade taking English Lit who read the fluff will take it that he was a humble peaceful man, trying to help humanity. He was not a tyrant or a dictator. Stop the debate on this issue Please. Moving on.
The proof is there, you can pick it apart and claim this and that to justified your position is up to you. Like I said... you are justifying your position.
Later in his final days he became a tyrant and overlord because he had too. NOBODY IS DISAGREEING WITH YOU HERE.
Second... Kid, I know fluff has changed , but has it? Did it change his personality of his Alpha stage of his life? Was he a destroyer of civilization because he can or because he must? The story of Emperor is he wanted man to survive Chaos and he must do what he must... his goal is of nobel and he always wanted peace and harmoney. I haven't read that he wanted the worlds for his greed and selfish reasons. It has always been for mankind. He knew best and only he understood what sacrifice must be taken to defeat Chaos.
Size....He was born normal. He lived normal for the most part as man size. Maybe he hide his halo or his size, it is not reveal. So one thing is for sure ... he was normal size even if he was hiding. So most of his life he existed as a man size man. Stop with this crap of he is a giant in disguise..... Like I stated, even if he was... he still LIVED as normal size man.
Giant size... yes he was giant size for the later part of his life... and only about what???? 500 years! You don't have to tell me that he was a giant. I am not debating the giant size during the Great Crusade and the HH...
So now you know my position is based on facts not making up... as you assume.
My Alpha position is based on fact... weather or not he choose to be in alpha stage is up to GW ... but I do have my reasons based on facts.
1 - More peaceful than tyrant.
2 - More normal size than Giant size.
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Post by: insaniak
guise
/ɡʌɪz/
noun: guise; plural noun: guises
an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.
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Post by: david choe
 insaniak wrote:
guise
/ɡʌɪz/
noun: guise; plural noun: guises
an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.
Yeah.. only you would interpreted the context of that as Giant or a hydra or a dragon....most people would view that as MLK, Gandhi, or even Mother Teresa ... LOL 
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Post by: Grimskul
Nope, he is definitely NOT more peaceful than a tyrant, the Great Crusade in of itself demonstrates that. If he was about peace he wouldn't wage intergalactic war or literally make demigods of mass destruction as his intended generals to lead said war. Even if its for the so-called good of mankind, there's several instances where humans who aren't willing and aren't corrupted/enslaved by xenos or Chaos are ruthlessly crushed and assimilated into the Imperium against their consent. Even in the Unification Wars prior the Great Crusade the Emperor committed effective genocide against large swathes of those who did not submit and systematically wiped out innocent practitioners of faith like in the short story of the Last Church, where even the last cleric/priest sees into the core of the Emperor and witnesses the molten violence behind the golden façade he creates.
Plus by your logic, an insane murderer who kills people to "free them of the bleakness of life" is a misunderstood Saint who cannot be condemned as he is only doing the thing that no one else will do or can. He's normal too btw, just like your wrongfully claiming the Emperor is.
Also, don't put words into insaniak's mouth, he said nothing of the sort. You're also completely missing insaniak's point, he's using a GUISE to be humble. As in he ISN'T humble. He's PRETENDING to be. Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:
Yeah.. only you would interpreted the context of that as Giant or a hydra or a dragon....
What?
No. I interpret that as meaning that the 'humble man' was just a guise, and not his true nature.
Because that's what it means.
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Post by: david choe
insaniak wrote: david choe wrote:The thread about the emperor body thread was closed because I was being accused as making stuff up and other stated that Emperor corps should be giant 10 ft and can't be 6 ft man size.
No, that thread was closed because it was a train-wreck. I'm willing to give this one the benefit of the doubt so long as things remain civil and intelligible.
My theory was the Alpha theory.. the beginning of his life. Which he was born as a normal man size 6 ft tall and he was a peaceful man and very humble. For 38,000 years from 8,000 BC to about 30,000 AD... he was a humble and teaching man to be better. Yes, he was a warrior at times... but for most.. he was a religious leader, Messiah, scientist... etc...
The text you posted says otherwise.
Specifically "...adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature."
Which suggests rather plainly that he was anything but a 'normal man'.
The thing is, the backstory of 40K has changed significantly since Rogue Trader. The Emperor wasn't originally portrayed as the gigantic monster that he later became... but neither were regular Space Marines. From 2nd edition onwards, the fluff has shifted towards less suble and more grandiose. The Primarchs became towering lords amongst their supermen, and the Emperor had to be more impressive even than his Primarchs.
So however he started out, the Emperor is not a 'normal man'.
My position on the other thread was always normal size and peaceful and humble in his Alpha stage... why are you saying that I didn't write that... go read it.
the guise of normal man with out revealing his true nature is...... I interpreted as he is a powerful psychic man from 8,000BC is his true nature. Not some giant man with halo.
Look, I know fluff changed ... and most of the changed fluff are about his Imperium and crusade stage... Or I call it his Omega stage. All his humble beginning crux of it is still the same. In other words, his Alpha stage is what I stated. The Alpha stage of his life was 38,000 years! His Omega stage of his life was about 500 years.
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:
My position on the other thread was always normal size and peaceful and humble in his Alpha stage... why are you saying that I didn't write that... go read it.
I didn't say you didn't write that.
The Alpha stage of his life was 38,000 years! His Omega stage of his life was about 500 years.
You keep saying this. I'm really not sure what you think it proves.
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Post by: Grimskul
His obsession with the words Alpha and Omega make me think he's read too much Alpha Legion fan fiction and its befuddling his brain.
But you are admitting that he's definitely not normal then right? Also he's definitely not peaceful or humble, even in his "alpha" stage given that your source explicitly states he became a crusader in turbulent times meaning he was more than willing to engage acts in war. He's no Gandhi I'll tell you that.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
In the old fluff he is supposed to been several prominent figures in history from Jesus to Hitler.
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Post by: david choe
insaniak wrote: david choe wrote:
My position on the other thread was always normal size and peaceful and humble in his Alpha stage... why are you saying that I didn't write that... go read it.
I didn't say you didn't write that.
The Alpha stage of his life was 38,000 years! His Omega stage of his life was about 500 years.
You keep saying this. I'm really not sure what you think it proves.
My mistake. I understand what you ment now.
I am saying that my PO of alpha stage is 90% of his life ...to support my view of why he wanted his golden thrones stage of his final life should represent the majority of his life size or what he start out and stand for. Which was peace and harmony. For man to survive chaos he had to be a tyrant ...he did what he thought best, not what he wanted but a must. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Grimskul wrote:His obsession with the words Alpha and Omega make me think he's read too much Alpha Legion fan fiction and its befuddling his brain.
But you are admitting that he's definitely not normal then right? Also he's definitely not peaceful or humble, even in his "alpha" stage given that your source explicitly states he became a crusader in turbulent times meaning he was more than willing to engage acts in war. He's no Gandhi I'll tell you that.
Lol alpha and omega are greek letters alpha is first or for beginning and omega is last letter or end. Most people use alpha and omega concept as beginning and end....newbie
He was probably Gandhi, Jesus, and genis khan...
My point was...he was a objective driven and his goal has always been for man to survivor chaos. He wanted peace and progress for man because it was good for man...he only become BAD or tyrant because he must.
We are reading this from out of universe POV, GW is telling us that EMperor was a good humble and peaceful man...must must be a tyrant to United mankind for its to survive...you can't see that?
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Post by: Grimskul
Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.
Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.
I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).
The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.
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Post by: david choe
Grimskul wrote:Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.
Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.
I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).
The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.
you keep bringing up his omega stage .....as an example , which I TOLD U were his tyrant stage in his life
Can you not understand the topic?
Learn how to argue my point.
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Post by: Psienesis
The Emperor was probably Hitler and Churchill, at the same time.
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Post by: Manchu
@david choe
No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.
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Post by: Grimskul
david choe wrote: Grimskul wrote:Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.
Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.
I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).
The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.
you keep bringing up his omega stage .....as an example , which I TOLD U were his tyrant stage in his life
Can you not understand the topic?
Learn how to argue my point.
That's fine, no need to rebuttal my points with those of your own. I'll make it more clear to you.
The reason why I'm pointing out these issues is that this "omega" or tyrant stage as you call it is shown to be unjustified by his handling of Lorgar and other examples of humans living peacefully with xenos like the Interex. It doesn't matter if he's "peaceful" or "humble" earlier on (which again you conveniently ignored insaniak's post about that being a GUISE, as in NOT REAL) as you cannot disconnect this so-called Omega stage from the Alpha Stage of the Emperor. It's not like he created a split personality and became a shell of his former self, made only to propagate himself as a tyrant. No, he made the active decision to commit full time to his campaign of genocide, he's always been a human-supremacist and willing to sacrifice people to further his goals and given that you claim that he was possibly Genghis Khan and other famous warlords, then how exactly is he peaceful? Even in the context of being other potential peaceful figures this just shows he's two-faced and manipulative rather than genuinely humble or subservient to humanity and its more of his attempts to try and mold humanity's path to his liking rather than any real regard for their concerns.
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Post by: david choe
 Manchu wrote:@david choe
No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.
That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.
Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.
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Post by: Manchu
The Emperor's motives are actually the subject of pretty constant debate among fans.
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Post by: david choe
Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote: Grimskul wrote:Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.
Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.
I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).
The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.
you keep bringing up his omega stage .....as an example , which I TOLD U were his tyrant stage in his life
Can you not understand the topic?
Learn how to argue my point.
That's fine, no need to rebuttal my points with those of your own. I'll make it more clear to you.
The reason why I'm pointing out these issues is that this "omega" or tyrant stage as you call it is shown to be unjustified by his handling of Lorgar and other examples of humans living peacefully with xenos like the Interex. It doesn't matter if he's "peaceful" or "humble" earlier on (which again you conveniently ignored insaniak's post about that being a GUISE, as in NOT REAL) as you cannot disconnect this so-called Omega stage from the Alpha Stage of the Emperor. It's not like he created a split personality and became a shell of his former self, made only to propagate himself as a tyrant. No, he made the active decision to commit full time to his campaign of genocide, he's always been a human-supremacist and willing to sacrifice people to further his goals and given that you claim that he was possibly Genghis Khan and other famous warlords, then how exactly is he peaceful? Even in the context of being other potential peaceful figures this just shows he's two-faced and manipulative rather than genuinely humble or subservient to humanity and its more of his attempts to try and mold humanity's path to his liking rather than any real regard for their concerns.
We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..
Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?
73007
Post by: Grimskul
david choe wrote: Manchu wrote:@david choe No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.
That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet. my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind. Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.
That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grimdark. We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..
Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?
Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
david choe wrote: Manchu wrote:@david choe
No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.
That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.
Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.
Did he? Or was that simply so he could have the best-possible star-spanning empire to rule over? Did he destroy religions because he didn't like them... or to pave the way for his own ascension to the only god that matters to Humanity? Given the results of the Heresy... is the state of the galaxy in M40 really the best possible results? What if, instead, the Great Four had divided the galaxy amongst them, four mini-empires, each sworn to a patron Chaos God. Certainly, there would be conflict between these four... but can we say, with certainty, that the people would have been worse off than they are in the Imperium?
Of course, we'd like to think that they would be (and, granted, a lot of the ways in which Chaos is depicted suggest they would be) but, since that is not how the history of 40K shook out, we can only speculate.
81303
Post by: Stormwall
Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote: Manchu wrote:@david choe
No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.
That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.
Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.
That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grimdark.
We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..
Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?
Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere.
Wow. Absolute trainwreck. This thread is a lot like the Alpha legion or "which Primarch is best," threads because of fluff being mixed with personal opinions.
To be on topic, I still believe in the Star Child theory. But I also believe in Websters dictionary and what the word guise means. (Really good point Insaniak.)
73007
Post by: Grimskul
 Stormwall wrote: Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote: Manchu wrote:@david choe
No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.
That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.
Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.
That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grimdark.
We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..
Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?
Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere.
Wow. Absolute trainwreck. This thread is a lot like the Alpha legion or "which Primarch is best," threads because of fluff being mixed with personal opinions.
Juuuuuust a little. When you have to resort to using Hitler exterminating the Jews as an example of the ends justify the means, you know something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.
81303
Post by: Stormwall
If Ahiriman shows up it will be complete and a random mod will ascend to a higher plane.
Ahem.
It is a shame you quoted me after I edited in my view on the subject.
73007
Post by: Grimskul
No worries, I managed to read it. I have no trouble with the Star Child Theory as its at least in the realm of plausibility and interesting as a potential point of plot progression. It's just his ideas about an "alpha" and "omega" Emperor are so artificially structured and unfounded that I can't take his proposals seriously. Doesn't help that he can't seem to make his points very clear without going around in circles.
81303
Post by: Stormwall
Oh agreed absolutely Grimskul.. It reads to me like a fan fic. It has outdated fluff, circle logic, and quotes without context. I would love to see the Big E as humble like the OP says but, golden armor and physic powers make you appear godlike haha. (Then he gets upset when people worship him.) Another part that doesn't match up is his humanity. If he had fatherly empathy and had raised his god-like children right then the HH wouldn't of happened. (Maybe spank Rowboat so he wouldn't be such a humble brag. Give Magnus a motorcycle so he quits thumping books so much which would have curbed the whole edgy sorcery thing. (If you get the refrence you get a cookie.))
Totally unrelated but I do call myself out when I am a hypocrite, since we are on the subject of fluff/fan theory/speculation...
Spoilered due to silliness/relevance to 40k being lacking.
73007
Post by: Grimskul
Stormwall wrote:Oh agreed absolutely Grimskul.. It reads to me like a fan fic. It has outdated fluff, circle logic, and quotes without context. I would love to see the Big E as humble like the OP says but, golden armor and physic powers make you appear godlike haha. (Then he gets upset when people worship him.) Another part that doesn't match up is his humanity. If he had fatherly empathy and had raised his god-like children right then the HH wouldn't of happened. (Maybe spank Rowboat so he wouldn't be such a humble brag. Give Magnus a motorcycle so he quits thumping books so much. (If you get the refrence you get a cookie.))
Totally unrelated but...
(I do feel a bit of irony because what I just wrote makes me a huge hypocrite as I am currently writing a humor/troll theory to convince people on bungie.net that the Darkness in Destiny is grape kool-aid and the Traveller is a giant broken pitcher of lemonade kool-aid (The entire plot being their battle over which flavor has more worship/following/power.) Sometimes when making theories you know it isn't true but, you as the author act like it is infallible.)
 Ha! That's hilarious! At least what you wrote seems entertaining, and fairly obvious towards its good natured humour which you're trying to pull off (though inevitably there will be those who take a little too seriously). Don't forget to add that classic line though: "That Kool-Aid came from the Moon". Oh Dinkle-bot.
92786
Post by: david choe
@Grimskul
"That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grim dark."
Emperor was not Omnipotence... he assume what he did was the best course of action for his cause. You got to understand this .... most of us with his power will choose to hide and just enjoy easy life ... with richness and power... never fight anything. He risk his life for mankind when he didn't have to.
"Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere."
It was an example. Any MOD or person who saw my statement must know that with in the context... it was to make a point. I could have use Genghis Khan... when he slaughter the (I forgot which city) city in China....he murdered almost the whole city and you can smell the human fat as the city burned. If Emperor was GK, he did it because it was tainted with Chaos or something... not to be mean. That was my point. If Hitler was the Emperor... he did it for his cause.. .not for Aryan supremacist was my point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Psinesis
"Did he? Or was that simply so he could have the best-possible star-spanning empire to rule over? Did he destroy religions because he didn't like them... or to pave the way for his own ascension to the only god that matters to Humanity? Given the results of the Heresy... is the state of the galaxy in M40 really the best possible results? What if, instead, the Great Four had divided the galaxy amongst them, four mini-empires, each sworn to a patron Chaos God. Certainly, there would be conflict between these four... but can we say, with certainty, that the people would have been worse off than they are in the Imperium?
Of course, we'd like to think that they would be (and, granted, a lot of the ways in which Chaos is depicted suggest they would be) but, since that is not how the history of 40K shook out, we can only speculate. "
Well if you read the last line of The Emperor and Human History...
"....steering the human race along a narrow survival path that he alone could see."
Again, this is out of universe statement. His goal was for human survival. He did what HE THINK was the best and again, he wasn't Omnipotence. Automatically Appended Next Post: Grimskul wrote:No worries, I managed to read it. I have no trouble with the Star Child Theory as its at least in the realm of plausibility and interesting as a potential point of plot progression. It's just his ideas about an "alpha" and "omega" Emperor are so artificially structured and unfounded that I can't take his proposals seriously. Doesn't help that he can't seem to make his points very clear without going around in circles.
I'm not going in circle and my point is very clear...you are the one who lack the intellect to understand what the purpose of Alpha and Omega usually means.
BTW- you should know that Rule #1 by now...
The freaking paragraph is like 100 words... and you still don't get it.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
He didn't wipe out a whole planet, one city was destroyed and the people were ordered to leave the city.
Tone back on the the almighty i know it all and don't be so condescending please.
The thing is we don't know why The Emperor (if he was Hitler) killed the Jews, maybe that was the only way the solve a nexus in the time line to create the modern world.
My idea is by 30k the Emperor was so powerful that he lost his touch with humanity and is as inhuman as the cahos gods he tries to fight.
92786
Post by: david choe
Edited by Manchu - Rule Number One is Be Polite
39550
Post by: Psienesis
Well if you read the last line of The Emperor and Human History...
"....steering the human race along a narrow survival path that he alone could see."
Again, this is out of universe statement. His goal was for human survival. He did what HE THINK was the best and again, he wasn't Omnipotence.
I don't think anyone is arguing that point... but the Great Crusade was, from its outset, a means to an end, and he knew it would be bloody and violent. He basically gave other Human worlds (like the Interex) the option to swear fealty to him, or die.
Even before the Great Crusade, Humanity had a bunch of stuff happen to it, such as the Age of Strife and the War of the Iron Men. Meanwhile, the Emperor was gearing up to beat the crap out of everyone else left on the hell-hole that was Earth.
And, as it so happens, the one path to freedom from the Chaos Gods seems to have the Emperor as the sole focus of humanity's worship and veneration. If we are to take this statement as truth, that he alone knew how to save Mankind from Chaos, then everything that has makes 40K the grimdark dystopian hellhole that it is has been pretty much exactly as he planned.
In which case... the Emperor is not a nice guy. Not even a little bit. He is a theocrat of the worst kind.
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Post by: Manchu
I think we ought to drop this issue about Hitler and the Jews. That topic is complete unsuited to a 40k Background discussion forum. Thanks.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
We have NEW information on the Emperor now,that is worth discussing.
In vengeful Spirit we learn that during the age of strife, he enters the warp, and emerges having gained much power, after to what his perspective is a lifetime of struggle. (It is assumed he made a pact with the chaos gods, ot possible some other warp entity, but let's not worry about that now. )
The thing is, if the emperor gained power during the age of strife (he probably wasn't called the emperor then either ), this changes the established story, as assumedly he was weaker before then. Possibly even just a particularly psychic perpetual.
His noted achievements before unification are pretty much restricted to imprisoning a shard of the void dragon on Mars... so he certainly doesn't have to be atributed to every dictator under the sun.
With this new fact, we can attribute the beginnings of his plan to take over the galaxy aa mid age of strife, and can attribute his driving motive as trying to save humanity by making sure the age of strife doesn't happen again.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.
After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.
That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
Ok... if we are disregarding modern canon because of artistic temperament.. then I am out.
I think it is more likely that the shard of the void dragon was moved to mars at a later date.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
There's no such thing as "canon" in 40K. You would do well to disabuse yourself of the notion. What there is is scores and scores of publications that all offer variant viewpoints on the setting and those within the setting. Any one of them could be correct. Or they might all be wrong.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
Maybe they're going for a 'if the Alpha Legion wrote the heresy' feel...
92786
Post by: david choe
 Psienesis wrote:
I don't think anyone is arguing that point... but the Great Crusade was, from its outset, a means to an end, and he knew it would be bloody and violent. He basically gave other Human worlds (like the Interex) the option to swear fealty to him, or die.
Even before the Great Crusade, Humanity had a bunch of stuff happen to it, such as the Age of Strife and the War of the Iron Men. Meanwhile, the Emperor was gearing up to beat the crap out of everyone else left on the hell-hole that was Earth.
And, as it so happens, the one path to freedom from the Chaos Gods seems to have the Emperor as the sole focus of humanity's worship and veneration. If we are to take this statement as truth, that he alone knew how to save Mankind from Chaos, then everything that has makes 40K the grimdark dystopian hellhole that it is has been pretty much exactly as he planned.
In which case... the Emperor is not a nice guy. Not even a little bit. He is a theocrat of the worst kind.
I'm learning how to copy quote... bear with me. I hope i got yours right.
OK... I think we all can agree from the 8,000BC to 1 AD... The Emperor (according to the story that I posted) taught man about science, technology, and PEACE... he wanted peace and progress for man. He might play a warrior here and there to set man on the right path.
From there on, he started to get more brutal with because man were falling from his path.
Then toward the end when he became know as the Emperor... this was his last stance.. he realize that he needed to do this for the future of mankind.
The great crusade were no different than any other RL wars on earth... swear to me or die... If he were Cesare, Khan, or any other powerful figure... it was all the same thing. The scale was just much bigger.
I know sometime it is hard for some to understand that this game reflect on real life past history... and it is a bit no PC to talk about this.. .but lets just remember the context of this...
If he was Mao, Stalin, Hitler, or any great tyrant ... he killed for the betterment of mankind and not what our RL history taught us. Only he knew that and he presented to be otherwise for his secret agenda.
I'm not sure what you are saying .. toward the last statement. I mean it is always better to be free from Chaos and live under the Emperor is my PO. Emperor end game was to destroyed Chaos and for Man to be free from Chaos. If he needed to be a god to do this, he will be a god. Once he achieve this goal ... I don't know what he will do next. But his goal is not personal gain...it was to destroyed Chaos. Chaos eat souls and it is not harmony with the Warp. Remember the Warp was not a hell hole that became... it was peaceful when the Shamans were around... Life was in balance or circle of life. Chaos destroyed that ...
Yeah it sucks to have to live under this War vs. Chaos... but it is the long war in galactic scale. You can't view this as it has been 20,000 years and E was a tyrant. You have to view this war as the final war of all wars. If Chaos wins.. the material realm is hell. If Emperor wins... Warp returns to normal as circle of life as he wanted and man can evolved to the next stage of evolution under his guide.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
OK... I think we all can agree from the 8,000BC to 1 AD... The Emperor (according to the story that I posted) taught man about science, technology, and PEACE... he wanted peace and progress for man. He might play a warrior here and there to set man on the right path.
So... again, it's a "do as I say, or else" situation. He has his vision for what is the "right path", and he beats the crap out of anyone who disagrees.
What the Emperor was doing might have been necessary (from his point of view), but literally nothing about him says "nice guy". If the end of Chaos was what he was going for, then the whole idea of the Imperial Truth is pure, unadulterated grox-drek, because you cannot have Science if you do not account for chaos (we even have real-life Chaos Theory, Chaos Mathematics, and similar fields of study... in 40K, they just take on much more sinister meanings).
So, unless the Emperor was planning on stunting scientific growth at a certain point (before certain now-theoretical fields of study could come about), and stunting it in such a way that there was no possible way for Mankind to delve into these "forbidden subjects", then his plan was destined to fail.
Unless, of course, his actual plan was to become the God-Emperor of Mankind and exist in the Warp as a sort of Warp God of Order. In which case, his plan was near-flawless. However, it makes him a theocrat of the worst sort.
Incidentally, I'm not new to 40K. I've been reading these books and playing this game since it was called Rogue Trader, with some occasional "edition breaks" when RL demanded more of my time than I could give to 40K.
I'm not sure what you are saying .. toward the last statement. I mean it is always better to be free from Chaos and live under the Emperor is my PO. Emperor end game was to destroyed Chaos and for Man to be free from Chaos. If he needed to be a god to do this, he will be a god. Once he achieve this goal ... I don't know what he will do next. But his goal is not personal gain...it was to destroyed Chaos. Chaos eat souls and it is not harmony with the Warp. Remember the Warp was not a hell hole that became... it was peaceful when the Shamans were around... Life was in balance or circle of life. Chaos destroyed that ...
Read the quote I have as my signature. This is why, if what you say is true, the Emperor's "end goal" is grox-gak. He has "saved" Humanity... and put them in a world where the only real question, every morning of every day, is "wouldn't it have been better to die?"
92786
Post by: david choe
Psienesis wrote:
So... again, it's a "do as I say, or else" situation. He has his vision for what is the "right path", and he beats the crap out of anyone who disagrees.
What the Emperor was doing might have been necessary (from his point of view), but literally nothing about him says "nice guy". If the end of Chaos was what he was going for, then the whole idea of the Imperial Truth is pure, unadulterated grox-drek, because you cannot have Science if you do not account for chaos (we even have real-life Chaos Theory, Chaos Mathematics, and similar fields of study... in 40K, they just take on much more sinister meanings).
What are you talking about... Imperial Truth is not BS...science and Chaos has nothing to do with each other. World religions were BS because none of world religions were real and there were no God or Allah or heaven or hell or any of that stuff in 40K(I'm staying away from RL)... He wanted man to use real science and Man should ruled the galaxy and not other xenons. That is the IT. Obey his decree or die. It is his right path. This is not "nice guy" but a Right guy if you know what I mean. This was his final solution. He can't deal with the past 20,000 years of this religion and that religion anymore because there were all feeding Chaos and none of them were real. He can't be a "nice Guy" anymore. This is Omega stage like I've stated.
So, unless the Emperor was planning on stunting scientific growth at a certain point (before certain now-theoretical fields of study could come about), and stunting it in such a way that there was no possible way for Mankind to delve into these "forbidden subjects", then his plan was destined to fail.
Unless, of course, his actual plan was to become the God-Emperor of Mankind and exist in the Warp as a sort of Warp God of Order. In which case, his plan was near-flawless. However, it makes him a theocrat of the worst sort.
I think you are confusing the word of Chaos gods to science chaos theory. It has nothing to do with each other but the name. I don't understand why Imperial Truth is stunting science? The Imperial truth was... no more religion and only science. No more contact with any xenos. NO AI because of man of Iron. Kill all aliens. Do not worship Emperor as a god. He was all science.
Incidentally, I'm not new to 40K. I've been reading these books and playing this game since it was called Rogue Trader, with some occasional "edition breaks" when RL demanded more of my time than I could give to 40K.
good for you. So have I.
Read the quote I have as my signature. This is why, if what you say is true, the Emperor's "end goal" is grox-gak. He has "saved" Humanity... and put them in a world where the only real question, every morning of every day, is "wouldn't it have been better to die?"
Well that is your PO and could be true if you view are species in 1,000 years not in 100,000 years.
Point again. Shaman were around for millions or million years and the warp was peaceful for millions of years. It has only been about 50,000 years or so when Shaman were start to be eaten by Chaos and they had to become the Emperor because Shaman and human would have all die off by Chaos.
Go reread about Imperial Truth again. His goal was to stop Chaos and for man to progress with science. He failed because of Horus heresy. IF there were no HH... Emperor would have create a new golden age for human... no religion. better technology. Human would rule the galaxy and all aliens would be dead.Emperor didn't want to oppress human.. he want them to thrive and survive.
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Post by: Psienesis
Your quote-block there is fethed up but, I'll try to parse that out...
Science and Chaos are not at all separate things. Of course, the Warp doesn't actually exist, but take this real-world field of study:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
... and 40K it up a bit, and you can see why a "pure science" theorem is fethed from the get-go.
I know what the Imperial Truth is, and I know that it's a deeply, deeply flawed belief. Chaos exists in all things. Science exists to investigate the unknown. The Warp exists. It is unknown. Residing in the Warp is a being who is a God of Knowledge and Mysteries. The pursuit of knowledge for its own sake is the domain of Tzeentch... the pursuit of knowledge to perfect an art is the domain of Slaanesh. You can't have science without Chaos.
Shamans are not "millions and millions" of years old. By the time M40 rolls around, Homo Sapiens sapiens isn't even a million years old yet. In fact, it wouldn't even be 500,000 years old yet. It'd be edging around half that.
Mankind needs gods, whether it calls them "God" or "String Theory". It needs to believe in things greater than itself as the driving force of the universe. There were people worshipping the Emperor as a god right there on Terra during his lifetime, during the Crusade. He did nothing to discourage them from this action. I think the Imperial Truth was another guise... the way a man will feign humility while receiving the highest of honors, because he knows that his legend will only grow in the telling.
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Post by: david choe
Psienesis wrote:OK... I think we all can agree from the 8,000BC to 1 AD... The Emperor (according to the story that I posted) taught man about science, technology, and PEACE... he wanted peace and progress for man. He might play a warrior here and there to set man on the right path.
So... again, it's a "do as I say, or else" situation. He has his vision for what is the "right path", and he beats the crap out of anyone who disagrees.
What the Emperor was doing might have been necessary (from his point of view), but literally nothing about him says "nice guy". If the end of Chaos was what he was going for, then the whole idea of the Imperial Truth is pure, unadulterated grox-drek, because you cannot have Science if you do not account for chaos (we even have real-life Chaos Theory, Chaos Mathematics, and similar fields of study... in 40K, they just take on much more sinister meanings).
So, unless the Emperor was planning on stunting scientific growth at a certain point (before certain now-theoretical fields of study could come about), and stunting it in such a way that there was no possible way for Mankind to delve into these "forbidden subjects", then his plan was destined to fail.
Unless, of course, his actual plan was to become the God-Emperor of Mankind and exist in the Warp as a sort of Warp God of Order. In which case, his plan was near-flawless. However, it makes him a theocrat of the worst sort.
Incidentally, I'm not new to 40K. I've been reading these books and playing this game since it was called Rogue Trader, with some occasional "edition breaks" when RL demanded more of my time than I could give to 40K.
I'm not sure what you are saying .. toward the last statement. I mean it is always better to be free from Chaos and live under the Emperor is my PO. Emperor end game was to destroyed Chaos and for Man to be free from Chaos. If he needed to be a god to do this, he will be a god. Once he achieve this goal ... I don't know what he will do next. But his goal is not personal gain...it was to destroyed Chaos. Chaos eat souls and it is not harmony with the Warp. Remember the Warp was not a hell hole that became... it was peaceful when the Shamans were around... Life was in balance or circle of life. Chaos destroyed that ...
Read the quote I have as my signature. This is why, if what you say is true, the Emperor's "end goal" is grox-gak. He has "saved" Humanity... and put them in a world where the only real question, every morning of every day, is "wouldn't it have been better to die?"
You need to read Imperial Truth again.
From my memory:
1 - No more aliens, because they will kill you or cheat you… bad for you. Which is true.
2 - No AI because of the Iron Man
3 - No religion because all religions were feeding Chaos and all the old world gods or God where his creation and none of them exist.
4 - Focus on Science because it is the truth. BUT NO AI
So what are you talking about his Imperial truth was stunting science.
The Emperor is also another one of his Guise too you know. He was a great man with no name and all his past characters were all guise. Nobody knows his true identity except us reader. He was a normal man born with 1000s of shaman souls formed into him.
So he tried the “peaceful" ways for about 38,000 years and all he got were Age of strife and Iron Men who almost killed all human. His final solution was to be a new guise as the Emperor. The ruthless 10 feet tall man with halo. He needed people to see him as a powerful galactic warrior. I don’t know why you guys can’t see the Emperor as another guise of his. This is not his true form. He has no true form. Unless what he was born as … if you want to call it that.
This new Guise as the Emperor was join me or die. Final solution. The Imperial Truth.
His goal was the same. Defeat Chaos. Man rule the universe and thrive. Who knows.. if his plan comes true.. and Man are the only species in the galaxy and the Warp has returned to how it was a million years ago which was peaceful and balance with harmony, he would take another guise and do other things.. he might not stay as the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Psienesis wrote:Your quote-block there is fethed up but, I'll try to parse that out...
Science and Chaos are not at all separate things. Of course, the Warp doesn't actually exist, but take this real-world field of study:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
... and 40K it up a bit, and you can see why a "pure science" theorem is fethed from the get-go.
I know what the Imperial Truth is, and I know that it's a deeply, deeply flawed belief. Chaos exists in all things. Science exists to investigate the unknown. The Warp exists. It is unknown. Residing in the Warp is a being who is a God of Knowledge and Mysteries. The pursuit of knowledge for its own sake is the domain of Tzeentch... the pursuit of knowledge to perfect an art is the domain of Slaanesh. You can't have science without Chaos.
Shamans are not "millions and millions" of years old. By the time M40 rolls around, Homo Sapiens sapiens isn't even a million years old yet. In fact, it wouldn't even be 500,000 years old yet. It'd be edging around half that.
Mankind needs gods, whether it calls them "God" or "String Theory". It needs to believe in things greater than itself as the driving force of the universe. There were people worshipping the Emperor as a god right there on Terra during his lifetime, during the Crusade. He did nothing to discourage them from this action. I think the Imperial Truth was another guise... the way a man will feign humility while receiving the highest of honors, because he knows that his legend will only grow in the telling.
1 - Explain how Chaos theory (math) ... it is not tangible...it is a formula or math... it has nothing with Chaos gods or Warp. Please explain.
2 - The Warp was a natural universe in the beginning. It had psychics force from all life from plants to animals… intelligent animals like human has more energies in the warp. It was still all balance. Man was the problem. Man created the chaos gods. The warp is not a place for knowledge and all that … it was none of that. Man corrupt it as we evolved.
3 - Shaman were around before human. The shaman have been around for millions of years and when they die…they go to the warp to be reincarnated … Then man was around… don’t know when… but I would guess 100,000 BC, Chaos gods start to appear and start eating the soul of the shaman and they do not get to be reincarnated or they come back weak something like that. So by around 8,000BC they realize that they can only have about 1 or 2 more reincarnation before Chaos eat them forever… so they choose to commit suicide and form one soul and this soul is immortal and never have to die to be reincarnated. This soul is what we call Emperor.
So yes… Shaman were around for millions of years.
I am sure some people were worshiping him during the crusade… but his decree of Imperial Truth didn’t want that. I mean.. he was fighting 1000s worlds… and doing all kinds of projects… worshiping him is not that important. I’m sure people were arrested and all that… but you are nit picking an empire of 1000s of world.
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Post by: ImAGeek
You can't just focus on science while ignoring the Warp and Chaos. It's like if we focused on science today but ignored something fundamental like gravity. You have to factor it in or you're using science but with only half the information.
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Post by: david choe
 ImAGeek wrote:You can't just focus on science while ignoring the Warp and Chaos. It's like if we focused on science today but ignored something fundamental like gravity. You have to factor it in or you're using science but with only half the information.
explain to me about science and the warp... how is it connected ... more importantly how science is connected to the chaos gods.
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Post by: ImAGeek
Because you need to factor it in to any kind of science you do. Because it's there, and because it can and will mess with experiments, data etc. It's like... Doing an experiment that requires precision, in a tornado, and not factoring in the tornado. You aren't gonna get any meaningful data that way, like you wouldn't doing science in 40k without factoring in the Warp. You have to take it into account, you can't just pretend it's not there.
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Post by: david choe
ImAGeek wrote:Because you need to factor it in to any kind of science you do. Because it's there, and because it can and will mess with experiments, data etc. It's like... Doing an experiment that requires precision, in a tornado, and not factoring in the tornado. You aren't gonna get any meaningful data that way, like you wouldn't doing science in 40k without factoring in the Warp. You have to take it into account, you can't just pretend it's not there.
are you kidding me? You think the word Chaos in a math problem is the same as chaos god or power of the warp? WTF? You think our real world math problem is being effected by fiction warp gods or another dimension?
Seriously I don't think that is what you mean.. so explain again so we all can understand.
Guys ... am I the only one with my mouth open right now?????
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Post by: Dark Lord Seanron
Thought I'd dunk my head in here as I love talking about the Emperor's early life and the WH40K universe pre-heresy.
Read a few posts and nope, swimming back to shore!
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Post by: ImAGeek
I'm not talking about our science now, I mean science if the Warp was real. You would have to take it into account. It's just another aspect that you'd need to factor in to any science, like Gravity or Relativity or Thermodynamics. I don't really get what you aren't getting.
By ignoring chaos you stunt science because you're ignoring half of the laws of the universe, essentially. You aren't going to progress much ignoring something big like the Warp.
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:
Seriously I don't think that is what you mean.. so explain again so we all can understand.
Guys ... am I the only one with my mouth open right now?????
You 'seriously' need to dial it down a notch if you want this discussion to continue. You're discussing a fictional setting for a game of toy soldiers. The continual hystrionics every time someone disagrees with you or says something you don't understand are not productive.
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Post by: david choe
ImAGeek wrote:I'm not talking about our science now, I mean science if the Warp was real. You would have to take it into account. It's just another aspect that you'd need to factor in to any science, like Gravity or Relativity or Thermodynamics. I don't really get what you aren't getting.
By ignoring chaos you stunt science because you're ignoring half of the laws of the universe, essentially. You aren't going to progress much ignoring something big like the Warp. [/quote
I think you are confusing the warp with all the progress by man. Did all the tech of dark age of technology have anything to do with the warp? I still think you think chaos theory in real life have something to do with a game....which is really funny.
Who is ignoring the warp...how do you think those ship travel and who build them?
The warp and web way that the emperor was building,,,,he must have some scientist who understand about the warp. The warp study could be top scientist stuff...I mean seriously...how many of you study astrophysics...you think normal people woul want to study the warp for fun? If you want to study warp...to be part of his team...I am sure if you are good...he will let you.
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Post by: AegisGrimm
The problem with the Emperor is that he is simply a plot mechanic to facilitate the Horus Heresy. Everything written about him has to paint him in such a horrible picture of a leader as to make the Horus Heresy make sense.
On one hand you have the tyrant of humanity that was stupid enough to let all the things compound that needed to for the Heresy to happen, and then on the other hand you have all these writers painting the Emperor as this golden pillar of humanity, leading them into a bright future. Which of course if he was all that wise and psychically powerful, about 90% of the causes of the Heresy should have been seen by him from a freaking mile off.
I mean good god even the stupidest person should have been able to see how treating Magnus would end up. You create one of the greatest psychic minds ever, but then ban them from using that power under pain of death?
The Emperor is the stupidest genius there ever was.
I think the greatest secret about the Emperor is that such an unnaturally long life probably drove him insane, making all his actions around the Heresy make sense.
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Post by: ImAGeek
To be fair he gave Magnus a chance, it's not like he banned Psykers from the start. Magnus didn't heed his or anyone's warnings and went too far with his powers, because he thought he new best.
Not that the Emperor handled it well, he should've just explained Chaos and the Warp from the start.
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Post by: david choe
 AegisGrimm wrote:The problem with the Emperor is that he is simply a plot mechanic to facilitate the Horus Heresy. Everything written about him has to paint him in such a horrible picture of a leader as to make the Horus Heresy make sense.
On one hand you have the tyrant of humanity that was stupid enough to let all the things compound that needed to for the Heresy to happen, and then on the other hand you have all these writers painting the Emperor as this golden pillar of humanity, leading them into a bright future. Which of course if he was all that wise and psychically powerful, about 90% of the causes of the Heresy should have been seen by him from a freaking mile off.
I mean good god even the stupidest person should have been able to see how treating Magnus would end up. You create one of the greatest psychic minds ever, but then ban them from using that power under pain of death?
The Emperor is the stupidest genius there ever was.
I think the greatest secret about the Emperor is that such an unnaturally long life probably drove him insane, making all his actions around the Heresy make sense.
Lol...well yeah he is a stupid genius...he is fighting the four stooges of idiots...it all balanced out.
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Post by: ImAGeek
The Chaos gods are not idiots. They don't 'think' like we do, we have no comprehension of what they are or how they think, they are embodiments of emotions and cannot be idiots because they don't work like we do.
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Post by: david choe
ImAGeek wrote:The Chaos gods are not idiots. They don't 'think' like we do, we have no comprehension of what they are or how they think, they are embodiments of emotions and cannot be idiots because they don't work like we do.
Ok whatever....let me get back to you on this after I figure out how Chaos theory will affect the weather tomorrow...I heard Tzeentch was feeling a bit stormy...
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Post by: ImAGeek
david choe wrote: ImAGeek wrote:The Chaos gods are not idiots. They don't 'think' like we do, we have no comprehension of what they are or how they think, they are embodiments of emotions and cannot be idiots because they don't work like we do.
Ok whatever....let me get back to you on this after I figure out how Chaos theory will affect the weather tomorrow...I heard Tzeentch was feeling a bit stormy...
I wasn't talking about chaos theory before. I know FA about Chaos Theory. But good one  way to strawman and ignore my point.
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Post by: david choe
insaniak wrote:
guise
/ɡʌɪz/
noun: guise; plural noun: guises
an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.
The 10ft tall bronze man with a halo is also a guise of his too. He is the new man who was born of normal parents with thousands of shaman souls. His true form is unknow or if he even has one. He has always picked a form that is best for the time.i am sure he thought that this was just another one of his guise that he is stuck with for a few hundred years...just like the thousands in his past.
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Post by: insaniak
Is it? Where is that pointed out?
He is the new man who was born of normal parents with thousands of shaman souls.
And? I don't look exactly the same as I did when I was younger either, and that's even without the addition of awesome cosmic power.
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here. Pointing out that his appearance after becoming Emperor may be an illusion is in no way a counter to the idea that his appearance before becoming Emperor was an illusion...
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Post by: david choe
insaniak wrote:
And? I don't look exactly the same as I did when I was younger either, and that's even without the addition of awesome cosmic power.
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here. Pointing out that his appearance after becoming Emperor may be an illusion is in no way a counter to the idea that his appearance before becoming Emperor was an illusion...
The point is he has no true form and any form he choose is as valid....Example...when he was,,, say... JFK or any people from the past.... he choose that for his mission. JFK form was a good form to be the President of USA , etc...
The 10ft giant with a halo is a good form as an Emperor too. Remember, just because we call him the Emperor doesn't me he is the Emperor....He was the NEW MAN. You think that 10ft is all he can be? Can't he be 20ft? I'm sure he can.
Seriously... if you want to take just the height average of his life time ... you would end up with about 6 to 7 feet. His form that he choose to walk the earth was 90% of his life was normal man size. The Emperor guise was about 1 to 2 percent of his long life.
His real true form is that of his birth ...it you want to call it that.
Insaniak wrote:
"Is it? Where is that pointed out?"
It wasn't pointed out, but where did it say that this is his true form? The pattern of his life seems to suggest that he keep changing ...you just assume that his Omega form is his true form. For all we know ...once Imperium is set up and Chaos is defeated ... he might just left and disappear and walk among his new galaxy of xenos and Chaos free... and get back to helping people just like his humble beginning.
His mission is accomplished.
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:The point is he has no true form and any form he choose is as valid.
Except that this has no basis in the actual fluff.
We don't know, because the fluff never says, whether the forms that he takes on are actual transformations or just illusion. Although as I pointed out before, at least one story in the Horus Heresy series suggests the latter, and that, at least by that point in his life, he actually was rather large.
Anything more than that at this stage is just baseless supposition.
Seriously... if you want to take just the height average of his life time ...
Why would you want to do that?
And how? You're 'he was 6 foot tall while he was wandering the earth' is something that you made up. The fluff that you have referenced never mentions his height.
It wasn't pointed out, but where did it say that this is his true form?
It didn't.
That's the whole point.
You have made assumptions about his appearance that have no basis in the actual fluff.
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Post by: david choe
Then My guess is as good as yours.
But you keep saying it is an illusion... how do you know that the Emperor is not an illusion. He could be a large fat Turkish ugly man as his true form and choose the Emperor as his guise.
If you want to count the average height of his "Illusion" then the average "Illusion" size is man size.
It would be silly to assume that from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD he was a giant size man. Seriously please don't even argue this point.
You also made an assumption that the Emperor is his true form. Or something large because of the fluff you stated.
Even the fluff you stated might be because he was in Illusion of Emperor size.. then cover that illusion of man size and didn't remove Emperor size...lol. I mean...it could be anything.
Like I stated before.. in the end he could just be a giant fat ugly turkish man behind it all.
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:But you keep saying it is an illusion... how do you know that the Emperor is not an illusion. He could be a large fat Turkish ugly man as his true form and choose the Emperor as his guise.
Yes, now you're getting it.
If you want to count the average height of his "Illusion" then the average "Illusion" size is man size.
Again with the 'average height' thing. What does his average height have to do with anything? And, again, where are you getting any numbers to calculate that average?
It would be silly to assume that from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD he was a giant size man. Seriously please don't even argue this point.
Where did I say he was?
The point was simply that his size is never mentioned in the earlier fluff.
He may have been a normal sized man at that point. He may have been a giant. We don't know, because the fluff doesn't tell us.
You also made an assumption that the Emperor is his true form.
No, I didn't.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Could be. So why are you arguing so forcefully that your perception is the "correct" one again? Foot meet mouth.
Edit: that was to the op.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Psienesis wrote:Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.
After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.
That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.
Just to jump in here, Heracles replaced Atlas for a period of time. Who was holding up the heavens from crushing Earth. If we go by a modern interpretation of this, Heracles was squatting five quadrillion tonnes.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
 Wyzilla wrote: Psienesis wrote:Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.
After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.
That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.
Just to jump in here, Heracles replaced Atlas for a period of time. Who was holding up the heavens from crushing Earth. If we go by a modern interpretation of this, Heracles was squatting five quadrillion tonnes.
His quads must have been enormous. Yet all the fluff illustrates him as having human sized legs. How can this be???
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Post by: Wyzilla
 Gordon Shumway wrote: Wyzilla wrote: Psienesis wrote:Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.
After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.
That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.
Just to jump in here, Heracles replaced Atlas for a period of time. Who was holding up the heavens from crushing Earth. If we go by a modern interpretation of this, Heracles was squatting five quadrillion tonnes.
His quads must have been enormous. Yet all the fluff illustrates him as having human sized legs. How can this be???
When in doubt, density. Clearly his muscles were so dense by the end of that trial they were nearing nuclear fusion.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
I think density sums up this discussion quite nicely.
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Post by: david choe
insaniak wrote: david choe wrote:But you keep saying it is an illusion... how do you know that the Emperor is not an illusion. He could be a large fat Turkish ugly man as his true form and choose the Emperor as his guise.
Yes, now you're getting it.
If you want to count the average height of his "Illusion" then the average "Illusion" size is man size.
Again with the 'average height' thing. What does his average height have to do with anything? And, again, where are you getting any numbers to calculate that average?
It would be silly to assume that from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD he was a giant size man. Seriously please don't even argue this point.
Where did I say he was?
The point was simply that his size is never mentioned in the earlier fluff.
He may have been a normal sized man at that point. He may have been a giant. We don't know, because the fluff doesn't tell us.
You also made an assumption that the Emperor is his true form.
No, I didn't.
Sounds like you are flip flopping or back tracking .. ....
The average height is to establish that when the Emperor was around Earth and not Terra as is now know ... he was human size. I've always stated that to be true. You just like to use the word illusion, so I'll just let you have that word illusion...of a man size. So he was around earth as an illusion of man size. That was the debate... some consider that he was a giant even back then.
Yeah... the size was never mentioned in the fluff during 8,000BC to 2,000AD because it is understood that he must have been normal size. Again, this is commonsense...if you want something to be abnormal like giant or 10 heads and 5 arms... it must be stated. I don't read books like Fight Club and assume the narrator skin was bright orange because it was never mention what color his skin were. If you want to go this route... I'm not impressed.
The word illusion doesn't mean that it has to be like smoke and mirror as you suggested. It could be down to like Morph ability.. meaning that it is not just a visual illusion... he changed in all aspect from weight, smell, sounds, touch, and height. If he was Lady Gaga... he would be Lady Gaga. This silly notion of it is just visual is fill with loop holes and stupid. If his true form is big or small or what ever and everything is just an illusion.. then how does video that capture his image or the weight scale or entering small space or reaching large area would work?
I am the one who said that the Emperor is a guise. Nobody have claim that in this discussion. You just join which ever wagon is wining.
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Post by: insaniak
How?
The average height is to establish that when the Emperor was around Earth and not Terra as is now know ... he was human size. I've always stated that to be true. You just like to use the word illusion, so I'll just let you have that word illusion...of a man size. So he was around earth as an illusion of man size. That was the debate... some consider that he was a giant even back then.
Nope, I'm still not seeing what 'average height' has to do with anything.
I never argued that he wasn't 'normal' sized during his earlier life. Just pointed out that there is no actual evidence that this was the case, and that even if it is the case it has no bearing on how big he was by the time of the Heresy.
Yeah... the size was never mentioned in the fluff during 8,000BC to 2,000AD because it is understood that he must have been normal size. Again, this is commonsense...if you want something to be abnormal like giant or 10 heads and 5 arms... it must be stated. I don't read books like Fight Club and assume the narrator skin was bright orange because it was never mention what color his skin were. If you want to go this route... I'm not impressed.
You can be as umimpressed as you like, but that won't change the fact that we don't know anything that isn't actually detailed in the fluff.
And all of this is, again, ignoring the fact that the fluff you are basing your argument on is from Rogue Trader. So even if we are meant to assume that in that fluff he was a normal-sized man, it has little relevance on the background as it stands now.
The word illusion doesn't mean that it has to be like smoke and mirror as you suggested. It could be down to like Morph ability.. meaning that it is not just a visual illusion... he changed in all aspect from weight, smell, sounds, touch, and height.
The story that I referenced from the Horus Heresy series suggests otherwise.
This silly notion of it is just visual is fill with loop holes and stupid.
Welcome to 40K.
If his true form is big or small or what ever and everything is just an illusion.. then how does video that capture his image or the weight scale or entering small space or reaching large area would work?
I don't know. I think I slept through the class in Uni that covered how psychic abilities interact with video equipment.
I am the one who said that the Emperor is a guise. .
You did, indeed. And then went on to make clear that you didn't actually know what that meant...
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Post by: david choe
I"m going to use your style of argument now.....
---I don't know go check...
insaniak wrote:
Nope, I'm still not seeing what 'average height' has to do with anything.
I never argued that he wasn't 'normal' sized during his earlier life. Just pointed out that there is no actual evidence that this was the case, and that even if it is the case it has no bearing on how big he was by the time of the Heresy.
--- I never say you were arguing. I didn't say I have evidence. I just show you the short story.
insaniak wrote:And all of this is, again, ignoring the fact that the fluff you are basing your argument on is from Rogue Trader. So even if we are meant to assume that in that fluff he was a normal-sized man, it has little relevance on the background as it stands now.
-- - -There is never once established fluff to suggest that he was a giant back in 8,000BC or anytime after that... only as the Emperor was he 10ft tall with Halo. And I've already stated that the Emperor is more than likely another one of his guise too.
So we are back to "if it didn't say his size back on Earth... he must be gigantic or human"? I think it is save to say... he was human for practicality reasons.
insaniak wrote:
You did, indeed. And then went on to make clear that you didn't actually know what that meant.
- -- Everybody understood what it meant... you only assume that we all couldn't figure it out that he wasn't the same face, sex, race, height, weight, etc... for 38,000years and the word guise is a complicated concept to understand.
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Post by: Stormwall
I love how you're going by your own view Choe. Where is the citations for all this? Is it in a rule book? RT era diagrams? Black library? Your mind maybe...?
david choe wrote:
I"m going to use your style of argument now.....
---I don't know go check...
Antagonizing a mod because the forum users disagree with you isn't a good way to start the day. Furthermore, every time someone makes a valid counter such as factoring in chaos to science, etc, you put on the hysterics and borderline break the rules.
Then in your next series of posts, you quote the very same rules mind you, especially when you're called on your behavior. I'm unsubbing from this thread, there isn't anything useful to glean from it. (Well, except how Matt Ward was born.)
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:I"m going to use your style of argument now.....
---I don't know go check...
Ah... so just a random accusation of 'back tracking' then without actually explaining what you're talking about. That's certainly going to promote useful discussion.
-- - -There is never once established fluff to suggest that he was a giant back in 8,000BC or anytime after that... only as the Emperor was he 10ft tall with Halo.
If I tell you that I'm 6 foot tall right now, but don't tell you how tall I was when I was 25, is there any particular reason to assume that my height was any different when I was 25 to what it is now?
So we are back to "if it didn't say his size back on Earth... he must be gigantic or human"?
I don't recall ever being there to begin with, so I wouldn't expect to be 'back' there.
My argument was that the Rogue Trader fluff never mentioned his height, and is largely irrelevant due to being out of date anyway.
- -- Everybody understood what it meant... you only assume that we all couldn't figure it out that he wasn't the same face, sex, race, height, weight, etc... for 38,000years and the word guise is a complicated concept to understand.
Who are you referring to by 'all' here? Because so far you're the only one who has tried to argue that he was actually some humble servant of humanity despite the fluff you had referenced pointing out that this was just a guise that he had adopted...
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Post by: EngulfedObject
I think this thread has gone on long enough as it is. Aside from suggesting the Emperor in the guise of Hitler murdered Jews because of Chaos taint, the OP has also been antagonizing almost every other user (including mods), even after several warnings. There is no room for discussion when the OP already made up his mind and made this thread simply because he was bitter about having his other thread closed. Almost all of his posts have been repeatedly nonsensical, childish, and abrasive. If this doesn't warrant a thread closure or even a ban, then I don't know what does. 
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Post by: david choe
Stormwall wrote:I love how you're going by your own view Choe. Where is the citations for all this? Is it in a rule book? RT era diagrams? Black library? Your mind maybe...?
Why don't you pin point the view you are talking about. It seems that you ignored the copy of Lost and Damned excerpt. Your statement is a bate... I'm not biting. You need to pin point if you want a respond.
Stormwall wrote:
Antagonizing a mod because the forum users disagree with you isn't a good way to start the day. Furthermore, every time someone makes a valid counter such as factoring in chaos to science, etc, you put on the hysterics and borderline break the rules.
Then in your next series of posts, you quote the very same rules mind you, especially when you're called on your behavior. I'm unsubbing from this thread, there isn't anything useful to glean from it. (Well, except how Matt Ward was born.)
Are you kidding me with this one. I think Insaniak can handle himself and do not need you to even stick up for him. We are debating and doing just fine.
What valid counter statement? Like Chaos Theory? You know that was a stupid mistake ... borderline slowed... one poster was comparing REAL LIFE Chaos theory to a fantasy game. Because Chaos Theory has the word Chaos in it.. so Science must need Chaos to advance. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?
It is like if I were to say that Mike Tyson can punch with a force... then some idiot geek who knew nothing of real world science or sports took that as in Mike Tyson has the Jedi Force power.
Last of all, you really think that we all need to here you validation of how useful this thread to you? Are you that important? Condescending can go both ways too.
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Post by: insaniak
david choe wrote:What valid counter statement? Like Chaos Theory? You know that was a stupid mistake ... borderline slowed... one poster was comparing REAL LIFE Chaos theory to a fantasy game. Because Chaos Theory has the word Chaos in it.. so Science must need Chaos to advance. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?.
It sounds less stupid if you read what they actually wrote, and realise that this wasn't what they were saying at all.
Given how many times in this and other recent threads you have just completely misunderstood what others are saying to you, I would strongly recommend being in a little less of a hurry to brand opposing arguments as 'stupid'.
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Post by: david choe
insaniak wrote: david choe wrote:I"m going to use your style of argument now.....
---I don't know go check...
Ah... so just a random accusation of 'back tracking' then without actually explaining what you're talking about. That's certainly going to promote useful discussion.
See … I was making a point. You seems to be doing this to me.
insaniak wrote:
If I tell you that I'm 6 foot tall right now, but don't tell you how tall I was when I was 25, is there any particular reason to assume that my height was any different when I was 25 to what it is now?
Again, you are assuming this based on your experience. And why are you going back ward from Omega stage? Based on Alpha stage.. he was normal man size… and he shouldn’t be man size while in guise of the historian people of the world? in the past 2,000 years… what Cult of personality people that was 10ft tall? In fact, no human were ever 10ft tall. To use your example and go forward and not backward… he was man size when he left his family …. he should be the same size until he choose to change. Dude, you know it is foolish to assume that E was some gigantic being around Earth…but then again.. you never say what size he was… so why are you debating with me on this? Are you making a point now? Are you finally going to say that he might be a giant? You see this has been your stance the whole time, but then when I put your feet to the fire.. you said that you didn’t declare that he was a giant. So which is it?
insaniak wrote:
I don't recall ever being there to begin with, so I wouldn't expect to be 'back' there.
My argument was that the Rogue Trader fluff never mentioned his height, and is largely irrelevant due to being out of date anyway.
Here we go again… This time I have you saying in one post. This is why I stated you are flip flopping …
The paragraph above from you suggested that if you are 6 ft now and when your were 25 your height should be the same? Are you not making this claim? Now you might back track again. I don’t know. You are a bit slick.
Now this paragraph…. your point is not stating that he was gigantic …or human… which I don’t even know what is the point of the discussion. Either you are trying to say that he was gigantic or he wasn’t … but you don’t want to commit to either or. Seems like you Just want to debate me… which is real tiring because when I say he was not a giant.. you suggesting he was.
I already mentioned this many times that if a writer do not mention something abnormal like 10ft size… then you must assume that it was normal. The New Man was in our history and walk the earth… you can’t expect him to be 10ft tall and be MLK or Jesus.
insaniak wrote:
Who are you referring to by 'all' here? Because so far you're the only one who has tried to argue that he was actually some humble servant of humanity despite the fluff you had referenced pointing out that this was just a guise that he had adopted...
So what was the New Man back then. I’m not trying … I already established that he was humble and a servant of humanity because of the excerpt that I’ve shown.
You understand right, the guise in this context is not to hide his evil or tyrant or whatever you think his agenda that is not humble is. It is to hide his NEW MAN identity. This part is really simple and you interpreted in a weird way and assume he was not a humble man just because of that word guise. He was a humble man. He choose to be humble and he choose to be tyrant and many other cult of personality to defeat chaos and save mankind. For the most part…he wanted peace and none violent .. even during great crusade.. he always tried to give them option. The New Man never wanted to kill his people for no reason. You would be wrong to think other wise.
Last of all…. just because my view is different and you all seems to feel I am attacking you guys… LOL.
It is the other way around. Are you saying that I can pick fight with all of you? I am on the defense here. If anything … you guys should tone it down and stay on topic and cool it down with the condescending and you will get the same treatment from me. Automatically Appended Next Post: insaniak wrote: david choe wrote:What valid counter statement? Like Chaos Theory? You know that was a stupid mistake ... borderline slowed... one poster was comparing REAL LIFE Chaos theory to a fantasy game. Because Chaos Theory has the word Chaos in it.. so Science must need Chaos to advance. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?.
It sounds less stupid if you read what they actually wrote, and realise that this wasn't what they were saying at all.
Given how many times in this and other recent threads you have just completely misunderstood what others are saying to you, I would strongly recommend being in a little less of a hurry to brand opposing arguments as 'stupid'.
Psienesis back on page two... go read his post.
Science and Chaos are not at all separate things. Of course, the Warp doesn't actually exist, but take this real-world field of study:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
... and 40K it up a bit, and you can see why a "pure science" theorem is fethed from the get-go.
Why is he using Chaos Theory in this statement. It has nothing to do with anything.
Then
IaAGeek came in. I assume he was support this Chaos Theory.
I did ask him to explain himself. He did. That was the end of that. The rest was just jokes. He took it well. We all joke here and I don't think any harm was done. Was it? Man.. have you seen the jokes directed at me...Look man.. don't make this a pitch fork and torches on David Choe...ok. It is real lazy.
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Post by: insaniak
I'm not, because this 'Omega' stage is something that you created out of whole cloth.
The thing is, if you're trying to find out how big something is, and you have one piece of text that says 'It's this big' and another piece of text that doesn't say how big it is, what reason is there to assume that this thing is any size other than the one stated?
in the past 2,000 years… what Cult of personality people that was 10ft tall?
In our history? Or the fictional game setting that we're discussing?
In fact, no human were ever 10ft tall.
It's unlikely that any human was also the repository for the combined power of a whole bunch of shamanistic sorcerors, as well.
Again, we're talking about a fictional setting for a game here...
but then again.. you never say what size he was… so why are you debating with me on this? Are you making a point now? Are you finally going to say that he might be a giant? You see this has been your stance the whole time, but then when I put your feet to the fire.. you said that you didn’t declare that he was a giant. So which is it?
I've never declared that he was a giant during his early days. I've pointed out that the fluff about that period doesn't say how big he is despite your claims to the contrary, and that fluff is questionable anyway because of it's age. The only current depictions of the Emperor that we have, have him as a giant. Whether or not he was always that way is not something that is detailed in the fluff, so is not something that we can definitively say one way or the other.
The paragraph above from you suggested that if you are 6 ft now and when your were 25 your height should be the same? Are you not making this claim? Now you might back track again. I don’t know. You are a bit slick.
There's nothing 'slick' about it.
I pointed out that it's reasonable to assume that someone's height now is the same height they were at a previous point in their adult life. I also pointed out that we don't actually know if this is the case with the Emperor, because we're never told.
You're taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin with as proof that he was a normal height to begin with.
I'm taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin, combined with the fact that he's a giant later on, to suggest that it's possible that he was always a giant, but that we don't know for sure because of that lack of evidence.
Either you are trying to say that he was gigantic or he wasn’t …
No, I'm trying to say that we have no idea, because the fluff doesn't say.
I already mentioned this many times that if a writer do not mention something abnormal like 10ft size… then you must assume that it was normal. .
And here's the thing... At the time that piece of text was written, it's entirely possible that he was just a normal sized man. As was mentioned earlier, at that point in time regular Space Marines were also normal sized men. And that's a problem, because in the current fluff neither of these things is true.
When GW wrote 2nd edition, a lot of the Rogue Trader fluff was left out. Since then, there's been a common attitude amongst players that anything that isn't specifically contradicted by later fluff should still be considered valid... but with the amount that the fluff has changed in that time, this s becoming less and less viable. So much has been retconned, either subtly or explicitly, that it's far safer these days to assume that anything that hasn't been reprinted in a later edition has probably been long forgotten by the studio, and should really carry very little weight.
If you would rather consider that ancient text as canon, then go for your life. But it still leaves you just guessing at much of the Emperor's true nature, and doesn't back up many of the statements you've been making. It doesn't give you any proof that he was ever a normal-sized man... just that he passed himself off as one for some time.
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Post by: troa
Insaniak, just lock it and ban him man. This is ridiculous. There is no logic in the arguments, and he keeps going back to name calling at best. He ignores other's arguments and says "I'm right, I already told you I'm right, and your points are invalid because I ignore them". There is no debate here, there is a massive failure of and twisting of a "I want to show off my e-peen" complex here with him.
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Post by: david choe
 troa wrote:Insaniak, just lock it and ban him man. This is ridiculous. There is no logic in the arguments, and he keeps going back to name calling at best. He ignores other's arguments and says "I'm right, I already told you I'm right, and your points are invalid because I ignore them". There is no debate here, there is a massive failure of and twisting of a "I want to show off my e-peen" complex here with him.
More pitchfork and torches....
insaniak knows that I didn't break any rules and my point is valid regardless of different PO.
I listen...you are not listening to my point.
I am also getting tire of you going off topic here.
You are THe one who is breaking rule 1.
Insaniak...I am reporting this guy for calling me names and insulting me.
From now on, anybody who stray off topic and use personal insult...I will report.
I have been debating using my point and never attacking anybody who didn't attack me first...
This topic is interesting. I will reply to insaniak after my lunch.
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Post by: david choe
@Insaniak
Before I respond the your points below, I just want to remind you about this topic and what are my PO.
This topic was to proof that I wasn’t making stuff up about my PO from the other thread.
There are only two points that I was making.
Point 1 - The New Man size. Alpha stage.
- The New Man or the the man who became the Emperor was human size from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD. I will even say that more than likely he was human size all the way right up to Unification War. However, I don’t want to get into that part because it is the future of our real world. So I will only stick to 8,000 BC - 2,000AD. This is what I call Alpha stage. I name it because it is difficult to talk about this topic when some of comes in an assume I was talking about the Emperor at 30,000AD. When I say Alpha… it is clear that this is the beginning of his long life. However, some of you still think I’m making up words like Alpha and Omega and means nothing. It means everything in this context because it describe the period of the New Man’s life. I am not interjecting my PO in to this. Alpha and Omega are just his age period… It is easier for us to just use the word like Alpha or Omega instead of saying Emperor at young age of 8,000 BC to 2,000 AD or in short just Alpha. The other way around is Omega is when he started the Imperium as a 10ft giant man or his last form before he was put on the Golden Throne.
- The Proof (agree to disagree is fine, but my proof is not bs, it has merit)
If you read the New Man story that I posted you will have to assume that he was normal human size. He took guises throughout human history to help mankind. This part is suppose to reflect our real world history and justified everything in our real world to this fictional setting. He could have been Jesus, MLK, Gandhi, Lord Buddha, and also some of the worst people in history like Hitler, Khan, etc…The point is he took those cult of personality and his size is normal… he can’t be gigantic.
- Fluff and fiction story. I took it from The Lost and the Damned , which was the holy grail or the original source (the stuff I posted)
- I also did some research about this.. like Wikki , Lex, etc… over the net. All of them support this story.
- I’ve also went back and read anything I can find about the New Man in all the editions rule book. They all stated the same thing.
NONE ever mentioned his size.
HOWEVER, they all mentioned that the New Man was always around humanity and helping and guiding them. He was not hiding in some tower and watching them. He might be unnoticeable at times.. but he walked among the human species. Again, do you think he walked around as a 10 ft giant?
Point 2 - The New Man personality. Alpha stage.
- I stated that the New Man was a peaceful man and his goal was always nobel and a humble man. This is clearly stated in all the fluff that the New Man was created by the shamans and the purpose of this New Man was for mankind to survive against Chaos and to help man kind prosper and hopefully defeat Chaos. All the fluff also stated that The shamans were peaceful and humble people who have been around longer than man and they have always been there to help man and guide mankind.
- Why is the New Man humble and peaceful? Because the Shaman were and also it is stated that the New Man wanted peace. When ever he killed in the thousands or millions … it was stated that he had remorse. It has always stated that he did the killing because he had to do it for the greater good of mankind and for man to survive Chaos. Not once had he killed for blood lust or did it for greed. It has never been stated that way. Please go read all the fluff you can about his Alpha stage and show me where it stated that the New Man did that.
- Out of Universe support. GW mentioned that the New Man was on a mission for the betterment of mankind and to survive Chaos. If he fail… Man will be extinct like soon to be Eldar. He killed men because it was no other options.
- - - -PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT ALPHA EMPEROR OR THE NEW MAN - - - — - - - -
insaniak wrote:
I'm not, because this 'Omega' stage is something that you created out of whole cloth.
I explained to you again above about Omega stage, which is just his time period… and nothing has change about his story. You are mentioning about how people last height at middle age (Omega for the Emperor)should reflect their height as young adult. You gave an example of yourself at 6 feet at middle age… and then your height at 25 should be 6 ft also.
I made it clear to you that it was a silly way of proofing a point that way because why not look at a person at age 20 and look at it again at 25? You are trying to say that if the Emperor was 10 ft at 38,000AD, he should be 10ft at 2,000AD. This is a silly notion also. The Emperor is a shape shifter. However, he was not a stupid man. He always take the best form to his advantage. 10ft at 38,000 AD is a big advantage, but a great disadvantage at his New Man alpha stage. So this point is really silly.
insaniak wrote:
The thing is, if you're trying to find out how big something is, and you have one piece of text that says 'It's this big' and another piece of text that doesn't say how big it is, what reason is there to assume that this thing is any size other than the one stated?
This is a false argument. We have many texts that stated he was born normal and he took many guise around human history. No text ever mentioned his height, but we must assume that he was not some gigantic man… we must assume that he was normal man size. BTW - in Lost and the damned (1980s)… you mentioned that it was so old that they have no intention of him being 10ft and space marines were man size. You are right. Back then men were men in sizes. Now in 2000s space marines are about 7 to 8 ft tall and old fluff has be changed. However, the New Man story has never change. He was still born from the Shaman at Anatolia out of normal mother and father. He still walked around people. Nothing has change about his size. You are the one who is making this part debatable. If you can find no text of the New Man height… then why assume that he was a giant? Show me any text of the New Man as a giant. If there are none, you want to go out of your way to assume that he was 10 feet tall?
insaniak wrote:
In our history? Or the fictional game setting that we're discussing?
In fictional setting that is based on our history. You would be one of the rare breed who think that 40K earth history is not the same as our real world history. Yes in 40K… WW2 happened and Hitler was real in 40K.
insaniak wrote:
In fact, no human were ever 10ft tall.
It's unlikely that any human was also the repository for the combined power of a whole bunch of shamanistic sorcerors, as well.
Again, we're talking about a fictional setting for a game here...
Yes we are talking about fictional game here, but the alpha stage of the New Man is also based on real life history. Why are you so against this concept? Go read all the fluff about the New Man. I think you and I both know that you feel like you are cornered here… lets don’t go this route. I respect your POV, but the minuet you take this route….
insaniak wrote:
but then again.. you never say what size he was… so why are you debating with me on this? Are you making a point now? Are you finally going to say that he might be a giant? You see this has been your stance the whole time, but then when I put your feet to the fire.. you said that you didn’t declare that he was a giant. So which is it?
I've never declared that he was a giant during his early days. I've pointed out that the fluff about that period doesn't say how big he is despite your claims to the contrary, and that fluff is questionable anyway because of it's age. The only current depictions of the Emperor that we have, have him as a giant. Whether or not he was always that way is not something that is detailed in the fluff, so is not something that we can definitively say one way or the other.
You just argue with me about he could be 10ft tall and now you are not saying that he is and you don’t know and that the Emperor is 10ft tall so we must assume that he was back then? Which is it? If you have none, then why do you come and tell me that I am wrong or I have no proof that he was man size at Alpha stage. I mean… this is getting really silly now. I have to proof to you that the New Man who is a shape shifter and is living among man and taking guise of men to shape history might be a giant. You must show the proof to make an outrageous claim like that. If you have no proof, then you can’t tell me that I can be wrong. You are a smart man… you know it is silly for you to claim that Leaf the Lucky (the Viking how discover America) was 10ft tall. You would need to proof it to us. This is one of those same situation….
insaniak wrote:
There's nothing 'slick' about it.
I pointed out that it's reasonable to assume that someone's height now is the same height they were at a previous point in their adult life. I also pointed out that we don't actually know if this is the case with the Emperor, because we're never told.
You're taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin with as proof that he was a normal height to begin with.
I'm taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin, combined with the fact that he's a giant later on, to suggest that it's possible that he was always a giant, but that we don't know for sure because of that lack of evidence.
I already explain to death about this one. You are now saying that we are to assume that Omega Emperor of 10ft height is also the same height as the New Man at 10ft. Clues and commonsense would disagree with you.
insaniak wrote:
Either you are trying to say that he was gigantic or he wasn’t …
No, I'm trying to say that we have no idea, because the fluff doesn't say.
Again, you are not trying to say what height.. but many above statement suggest that you are saying just that.
insaniak wrote:
And here's the thing... At the time that piece of text was written, it's entirely possible that he was just a normal sized man. As was mentioned earlier, at that point in time regular Space Marines were also normal sized men. And that's a problem, because in the current fluff neither of these things is true.
When GW wrote 2nd edition, a lot of the Rogue Trader fluff was left out. Since then, there's been a common attitude amongst players that anything that isn't specifically contradicted by later fluff should still be considered valid... but with the amount that the fluff has changed in that time, this s becoming less and less viable. So much has been retconned, either subtly or explicitly, that it's far safer these days to assume that anything that hasn't been reprinted in a later edition has probably been long forgotten by the studio, and should really carry very little weight.
If you would rather consider that ancient text as canon, then go for your life. But it still leaves you just guessing at much of the Emperor's true nature, and doesn't back up many of the statements you've been making. It doesn't give you any proof that he was ever a normal-sized man... just that he passed himself off as one for some time.
Man.. this is so silly. The original fluff and art work and everything in 1980s stated that Space marines were normal height and many art work of the Emperor at normal height. You even agree that it was normal height. I am not getting into new fluff or art work at the moment, but how can anybody back in 1980s would assume that the New Man was 10ft when the Emperor was normal height. In other words… the 10ft tall Emperor was a new thing in 2000s. So all old fluff was clear that he was normal height even as an emperor and you think that the New Man could be 10ft?
Now if you think that the New Man height fluff has changed… show me. Where does it even remotely closely stated the New Man’s height.
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Post by: insaniak
No, I think I'm done here. You have misunderstood far too much of my last post for my waning attention span to justify trying to find another way to explain it all that you're not going to misinterpret or ignore.
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Post by: GKTiberius
I think the real problem here, and it is something I discovered after I posted a topic about alpha legion. Discussions about theories and stuff are useful as long as everyone is permissive. The best answer anyone will ever get concerning 40k fluff, even if it is explicitly spelled out in cannon is "that is an interesting interpretation."
The reason for this is because ultimately the whole purpose of this enterprise is to sell little plastic models to adults who paint them and play war games with them. Anything and everything produced by GW is in support of that idea. Fluff, Black Library, Supplements, and codex's all support the main goal of making the little plastic figures appealing to consumers. For this reason fluff changes and in the overwhelming majority of topics left intentionally vague and open to interpretation.
For example: I really like Thousand Sons and Grey Knights but they have some of the most ambiguous history in the game. This is so that if I interpret them one way I still want to play with those models, and if you interpret it another, you still want play with those models, as that is GW’s ultimate goal.
Explicitly stating stuff after leaving it vague for so long would alienate players and cause a lot of lost sales. Which is why GW looks at it that way. Insisting you are correct in what may be the most subjective fictional universe setting in modern sci-fi gaming (Like seriously Star Wars and Star Trek look like Well documented historical texts compared to 40k fluff.) is just a pointless endeavor. OP I’m glad you are so passionate about the fluff, it really shows you like the game and have done your research, but ultimately it is all subjective and up to each individual players interpretation. It has been since the beginning and probably will be until GW is no more.
Just my 2 teef
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Post by: david choe
 GKTiberius wrote:I think the real problem here, and it is something I discovered after I posted a topic about alpha legion. Discussions about theories and stuff are useful as long as everyone is permissive. The best answer anyone will ever get concerning 40k fluff, even if it is explicitly spelled out in cannon is "that is an interesting interpretation."
The reason for this is because ultimately the whole purpose of this enterprise is to sell little plastic models to adults who paint them and play war games with them. Anything and everything produced by GW is in support of that idea. Fluff, Black Library, Supplements, and codex's all support the main goal of making the little plastic figures appealing to consumers. For this reason fluff changes and in the overwhelming majority of topics left intentionally vague and open to interpretation.
For example: I really like Thousand Sons and Grey Knights but they have some of the most ambiguous history in the game. This is so that if I interpret them one way I still want to play with those models, and if you interpret it another, you still want play with those models, as that is GW’s ultimate goal.
Explicitly stating stuff after leaving it vague for so long would alienate players and cause a lot of lost sales. Which is why GW looks at it that way. Insisting you are correct in what may be the most subjective fictional universe setting in modern sci-fi gaming (Like seriously Star Wars and Star Trek look like Well documented historical texts compared to 40k fluff.) is just a pointless endeavor. OP I’m glad you are so passionate about the fluff, it really shows you like the game and have done your research, but ultimately it is all subjective and up to each individual players interpretation. It has been since the beginning and probably will be until GW is no more.
Just my 2 teef
I have no problem with other PO and in the end... people can agree to disagree. However, for some reasons, people won't leave me alone about my PO and keep stating that I was wrong. I think my proof is compelling and if anything ... not pulling out of my ass. The irony of this is that because I won't accepted their PO view as correct, my PO is some how wrong.
I welcome all POV to contradict me and I would love it if someone show me FACTS, PO is ok, but FACTS will convince me and I will admit I was wrong and change my POV. Trust me, I do not want to have wrong data about anything in my life.
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Post by: Stormwall
troa wrote:Insaniak, just lock it and ban him man. This is ridiculous. There is no logic in the arguments, and he keeps going back to name calling at best. He ignores other's arguments and says "I'm right, I already told you I'm right, and your points are invalid because I ignore them". There is no debate here, there is a massive failure of and twisting of a "I want to show off my e-peen" complex here with him.
QFT. Exalted.
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Post by: david choe
Stormwall wrote: troa wrote:Insaniak, just lock it and ban him man. This is ridiculous. There is no logic in the arguments, and he keeps going back to name calling at best. He ignores other's arguments and says "I'm right, I already told you I'm right, and your points are invalid because I ignore them". There is no debate here, there is a massive failure of and twisting of a "I want to show off my e-peen" complex here with him.
QFT. Exalted.
QFF. demoted.
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Post by: KhorneIsLove
Cant even believe this game of circular logic is still spinning...
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Post by: david choe
stay on topic or you will be reported and your circular echo is not impressing anybody.
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Post by: Grimskul
david choe wrote:
stay on topic or you will be reported and your circular echo is not impressing anybody.
You do realize that if you spam the report button you're more likely to reprimanded than the ones you claim are diverging from the topic right? The mods are not on your side, or anyone else's for that matter. For someone who says he's open to other people's opinions, you sure like to police their thoughts with threats of setting the mods on them.
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Post by: david choe
Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote:
stay on topic or you will be reported and your circular echo is not impressing anybody.
You do realize that if you spam the report button you're more likely to reprimanded than the ones you claim are diverging from the topic right? The mods are not on your side, or anyone else's for that matter. For someone who says he's open to other people's opinions, you sure like to police their thoughts with threats of setting the mods on them.
No I didn't know that and what makes you think I've done that? It was a warning.
The MOD is not on anyone side. I have total respect for the MOD at Dakkadakka because they are fair and for the most part none bias. I am a magnet for controversy because my view must not be popular. This is not a popular contest or a democracy. My ego do not need that. It is a place to state view points and we can discuss the points. However, I have told the MOD that many people get upset with me because either they can't beat me in the debate or just hate my stance... whatever the reasons were... they start attacking my character. This was a while back. MOD told me from now on... if they start something ... you don't play their game and report them. They are right, so I don't play this game anymore .... I'll just report.
If you notice... this page 4 is full of the same people (including you) who follows me to many threads and tried to attack my character and derail the topic and ends up closing the topic.
I am open to PO, have any PO about this topic being expressed buy you guys this 4th page? Come on, I dare you ... I challenge you to express your PO or contradict my PO or better yet.. .show me proof that I am wrong. If you got nothing, then give nothing.
It is funny that for 4 pages already... I am debating against about 10 of you and none of you have post any actual fluff to contradict my statement. Your popular view of about 10 of you guys here are not scientific facts... it is just 10 PO vs. my PO.
Simple really I stand by my theory of the Alpha New Man is not giant size and was a humble man. You disagree, then prove it. If you hate my character, then stay out of it.. .because you are not going to derail this topic into about David Choe...
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Post by: insaniak
It's far, far less to do with your viewpoint, and more to do with the way you choose to present it.
You present your argument in a very antagonistic manner, and you either ignore, misinterpret, or dismiss as 'silly' any opposing argument.
That's why people are reacting negatively to you. Not because you hold a viewpoint that is not popular... but because you are acting in a manner that causes a negative reaction.
Regardless, this thread appears to have run its course. Time to move on.
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