I'm not accusing anyone here of this, but I've seen a bunch of people gleefully deriding Grey Knight players who express frustration or dismay at 7th Edition's treatment of their Codex. We're all playing the same game, and GW has raised each faction high, only to smash it down again, so I would think that there should be some level of sympathy for the latest victims, rather than making them the "whipping boy". As best as I can tell many people project everything they don't like about GW onto the GK, and that really isn't fair.
As I see it, if you ignore all other codexes completely, focusing only on the Grey Knights, the 5th edition codex had a very good internal balance. It wasn't perfect. Brotherhood Champions fell short, and Crowe was a liability, only taken to make the epic Purifiers Troops. You could build a list around any unit and make it viable. Some were better than others, but choosing one over another wasn't sacrificing having a chance to win for the sake of fielding certain models.
Clearly, there wasn't a balance between the Grey Knights and other Codexes. At the end of 5th the Grey Knights were grossly overpowered, thus beginning the long period of power-creep in the codexes, bringing them up to the Grey Knights' level. Some Codexes even surpassed the Grey Knighs. But somehow people held on to the idea of the Grey Knights being over powered, and regardless of how many GK losses they witnessed, each time they saw a GK victory, they would say it was because the Grey Knights were over powered (at least that's how it was at my local gaming store). But then 7th edition came.
I'm not going to go into details, but to "balance" the game, Games Workshop destroyed the Grey Knights internal balance instead of giving the other codexes the same sort of balance the Grey Knights had enjoyed. Grey Knights have it rough, and it doesn't reflect well on the gaming community when other 40k players show such contempt for players who chose the Grey Knight faction simply for the crime of playing that faction.
Again, I'm not blaming people here, but I needed to vent to someone.
Don't look at me, I'm not complaining about power levels, I'm complaining that I need four Codexes to run the army I built under the 3e Daemonhunters book these days.
AnomanderRake wrote: Don't look at me, I'm not complaining about power levels, I'm complaining that I need four Codexes to run the army I built under the 3e Daemonhunters book these days.
GKs have a few issues right now, first off all people who played "Codex: Cortez" obviously no longer could really play GKs (that said as a GK player I 'm happy the focus has been shifted strongly onto Grey Knights)
The power units have certinly changed. personally as a GK player my only issue with the codex as it stands is some units are great, but others are pretty worthless. with such a thin 'dex in comparison to many others, GKs to have varity on the table top do need to ensure all selections are equally useful. Purgation squads right now REALLY need something to make them worth while. as right now they're a "might as well not be in the codex" level choice.
right now GKs need eaither more options, or we need some of our "bad options" (really only purgation squads) to be made a bit better. I'd give Purgation squads the option to declare firing skyfire and call it a day. that'd make purgation squads the GKs "go to" for dealing with flying circus lists.
AnomanderRake wrote: Don't look at me, I'm not complaining about power levels, I'm complaining that I need four Codexes to run the army I built under the 3e Daemonhunters book these days.
as I said the only complaint I hear from GKs is how the codex pretty much results in all our armies looking the same, with 1-2 Librarians, 2 Dreadknights, and assorted terminators.
BrianDavion wrote: GKs have a few issues right now, first off all people who played "Codex: Cortez" obviously no longer could really play GKs (that said as a GK player I 'm happy the focus has been shifted strongly onto Grey Knights)
The power units have certinly changed. personally as a GK player my only issue with the codex as it stands is some units are great, but others are pretty worthless. with such a thin 'dex in comparison to many others, GKs to have varity on the table top do need to ensure all selections are equally useful. Purgation squads right now REALLY need something to make them worth while. as right now they're a "might as well not be in the codex" level choice.
right now GKs need eaither more options, or we need some of our "bad options" (really only purgation squads) to be made a bit better. I'd give Purgation squads the option to declare firing skyfire and call it a day. that'd make purgation squads the GKs "go to" for dealing with flying circus lists.
um. Purgation squad, If that is the one that comes stock with cleansing flame I greatly disagree
Mono-build is the problem, because of that they say its cheese... when it IS the only viable build.
-Dreadnaughts need to be cheaper
-Purgation Squads need longer ranged weapons
-All the HQs (barring the Libby) need to be cheaper
-All PAGK (barring Purifiers and those need deepstrike) need something that actually makes up for their price
-Deepstrike as a mechanic needs a overhaul
BrianDavion wrote: GKs have a few issues right now, first off all people who played "Codex: Cortez" obviously no longer could really play GKs (that said as a GK player I 'm happy the focus has been shifted strongly onto Grey Knights)
The power units have certinly changed. personally as a GK player my only issue with the codex as it stands is some units are great, but others are pretty worthless. with such a thin 'dex in comparison to many others, GKs to have varity on the table top do need to ensure all selections are equally useful. Purgation squads right now REALLY need something to make them worth while. as right now they're a "might as well not be in the codex" level choice.
right now GKs need eaither more options, or we need some of our "bad options" (really only purgation squads) to be made a bit better. I'd give Purgation squads the option to declare firing skyfire and call it a day. that'd make purgation squads the GKs "go to" for dealing with flying circus lists.
um. Purgation squad, If that is the one that comes stock with cleansing flame I greatly disagree
nope those are purifiers squads. a Purgation Squad is the one that can take up to 4 special weapons and is supposed to be the "GK devestrator equivilant"
The previous codex allowed you to take basically anything and have a playable army. The current codex is made up of mostly terrible or mediocre units, with a few gems mixed in. Simple as that.
Quickjager wrote: Mono-build is the problem, because of that they say its cheese... when it IS the only viable build.
-Dreadnaughts need to be cheaper
-Purgation Squads need longer ranged weapons
-All the HQs (barring the Libby) need to be cheaper
-All PAGK (barring Purifiers and those need deepstrike) need something that actually makes up for their price
-Deepstrike as a mechanic needs a overhaul
Personally, I don't know if I agree with all of your suggestions. The dreadnaught being cheaper does not counter the fact that we have things in our army that do its job better. If we could upgrade it to have skyfire, the the double autocannon dread would make a comeback and then would possibly be worth fielding since we have no other anti-air beyond a Storm Raven.
I would suggest just making the Puragation Squad Relentless so they can fire the Psycannon while following the rest of the army and still be useful. It would also give us a platform to use the Psilencer as they could fire it at full BS and move. The lack of range in our army is one of the weaknesses that we should have by design. We get very overpowered armies when you start removing all of the weakness, or at least make them feel all similar in play style. I would also not mind a option to not have them with Force Swords to start with, as we end up paying for the Sword, and then paying to get rid of it.
I don't play much with HQs other than the Librarian and occasionally Crowe (for fluff reasons with a mostly purifier list), but I would ask that they instead give us a tactical reason to bring them, instead of a points decrease since the Librarian will most likely be one of our cheapest HQs no matter what and is just so good.
On the topic of PAGK, we have already talked about the problems with Puragators, Interceptors are totally fine (and have their gimmick in the Shunt move), and Purifiers are pretty good too (on a side note, though it makes no sense fluff wise for Purifiers to not be able to Deep Strike, from a game balance view point I can see why they should never get it. Being able to potentially drop 2-3 min squads of Purifiers turn one and Alpha Strike with Cleansing Flame and Incinerators for around 400 points would be impossible to balance. I can hear the cries of cheese form here). That leaves the Strike Squad, which is only lackluster do to the other things in our codex being able to do the same thing better. If anybody has a thought on a gimmick or ability to make them worth considering (beyond a cheap min troop for a NSF), I would love to hear it.
I don't know what you mean by a overhaul of Deep Strike. I have no complaints about it or how it works, but I would love to hear your issues or what you would like to change.
Just my thoughts, but I would love to see what other people would like changed (beyond strictly breaking the units or making them stupidly cheap)
Rhino
Razorback
Dreadnought
Super Dreadnought
Land Raider (Phobos/Crusader/Redeemer)
Stormraven
and thats the entire Space Marines codex. Thats roughly what the GK codex is right now - a 4th edition space marine codex in terms of unit variety. Actually I believe the 4th edition SMurfs had more units.
Rhino
Razorback
Dreadnought
Super Dreadnought
Land Raider (Phobos/Crusader/Redeemer)
Stormraven
and thats the entire Space Marines codex. Thats roughly what the GK codex is right now - a 4th edition space marine codex in terms of unit variety. Actually I believe the 4th edition SMurfs had more units.
Way, way, way less than the 4e Marine book. Imagine on top of that that every single power-armoured unit has the exact same armament right down to the exact same three guns available in place of all the heavy and special choices.
I don't hate on GK, I feel bad for there GK players. Weak sauce codex.
Now fluff GK I can't stand. They kill innocents just to make a bolt gun round, allow the destruction of planets to keep their secret, and kidnap small children to raise them as sacrifices for their armor. Why do they do these horrendous acts?
Because they're pure.
Tzeentch is chuckling while Malcador turns in his stasis pod.
jreilly89 wrote: Imagine a world where Drop Pods can all drop Turn 1. That's why a lot of people have hate for Grey Knights. That and mass Psychic/Invuln shenanigans.
But that's not the case. If Drop Pods scatter onto somewhere they can't land, they reduce scatter until they can. If a Deep Striking unit scatters onto an enemy unit, that deep striking unit at best would be delayed a round, and at worst will just get eaten by the Warp. There is much more risk involved.
But that's not the case. If Drop Pods scatter onto somewhere they can't land, they reduce scatter until they can. If a Deep Striking unit scatters onto an enemy unit, that deep striking unit at best would be delayed a round, and at worst will just get eaten by the Warp. There is much more risk involved.
Locator Beacons... never leave home without them (no idea if GK have access to them, but regular SM do)
But that's not the case. If Drop Pods scatter onto somewhere they can't land, they reduce scatter until they can. If a Deep Striking unit scatters onto an enemy unit, that deep striking unit at best would be delayed a round, and at worst will just get eaten by the Warp. There is much more risk involved.
Locator Beacons... never leave home without them (no idea if GK have access to them, but regular SM do)
Ours are called "Teleport Homers" and they're only available on units that have to Deep Strike in to begin with. They don't benefit from their own homers, and other units only benefit if they were on the table at the start of the turn. So at best, reduced Deep Strike scatter is only available on turn 2, assuming the proper units arrived on turn 1 without a mishap, and didn't lose their sergeants (GK calls them Justicars) to Interceptor shots or the opposing shooting Phase.
The only issue I have with Grey Knights, or the players that play them (and this is just from what I've seen myself), is that they use Draigostar and Dreadknights. Always. Thats pretty much it. Or Assassins and Knights thrown in. They have to put such little effort into making a list and can still roflstomp with it. I'm not saying they're the most OP codex right now (I mean, I have no right, I play crons), I just hate how I usually just see the same thing on the board all the time, even in a casual setting.
I also hate Assassins and Knights, so that doesn't help.
The issues is that the 3rd Ed Daemonhunters codex was very low tier, like a 3-4. The 5th Ed GK codex cranked them to 11, followed by 6th Ed rules tuning them down to an 8-9, while the 7th Ed codex makes them a solid 7. As a mono-build mini-Dex goes, GKs are great as Allies, and a challenge to play as a main army, despite people being all butt-hurt over the overtuned 5th Ed Dex. Yes, most 7th Ed GK armies are either "Gate Taxis" or "More DKs!!!!!!", which can be a turn off for many. However, GK's do have the best Tac Terminators in the game, at 33ppm base that includes being Troops, Psykers with Force weapons, and +2 Str as needed. Not too shabby.
Their PA units are in a pretty bad place with the only two units worth fielding out of the four available being uber-Psyker-Sternguard cripple by lack of mobility (Purifiers), or uber mobile Tac Marines with less options (Interceptors).
The Nemesis DreadKnight is the gem of the codex, which makes up for the terribad vehicle selections available, namely Rhino-chassis coffins, overpriced paper Dreadnoughts, and the still hugely overpriced Land Raiders. Stormravens are the only in-codex option for Anti-Air, which makes it their best vehicle option, despite being an expensive target.
As to the rest, Paladins are too expensive for T4, 2 Wound models in a game with all too common S8+ AP2 pie-plates. Brother-Captians and Grand Masters would be awesome if it wasn't for the super points efficient Librarian. The Brotherhood Champion is another awesome unit that is overshadowed by any other HQ option, while the Techmarine is points better spent on more DreadKnights.
The three named characters (that didn't get stripped out between editions) are a Lord of War that is actually really good (Draigo), a not-Librarian therefore no reason to take it (Stern), and a BroChamp that is pretty bad despite having good rules (Crowe).
So, from the outside looking in, people see the legacy of 5th Ed domination, while from the inside GK players see a derth of options beyond a pretty slim yet playable set of good units supported by powerful rules. Thankfully, GK are a blast to play, if you like the only play style they offer.
I'd still say Grandmasters are awesome because, unlike every other combat HQ, you don't have to give up psychic powers to get him. Plus he's a BS5 psycannon to boot.
He's also not just a ML1 psyker, he's ML2. Sure, the Librarian is a lvl3 when upgraded, but I think giving up 1 level and paying a little more to be better in melee and have a psycannon is a decent trade.
Grey Templar wrote: I'd still say Grandmasters are awesome because, unlike every other combat HQ, you don't have to give up psychic powers to get him. Plus he's a BS5 psycannon to boot.
He's also not just a ML1 psyker, he's ML2. Sure, the Librarian is a lvl3 when upgraded, but I think giving up 1 level and paying a little more to be better in melee and have a psycannon is a decent trade.
Yeah I wanna use a grandmaster, I just need to get a mini. is the resin Brother-captain any good?
My Grand Master is a regular Terminator model with a greenstuff cape and a bunch of bits tacked on until he matched Draigo and Stern's bling. I also made an Iron Halo out of the end of the Nemesis Warding Stave with the center skull cut out. I think it turned out pretty well, though it leaves me with Terminators that don't divide evenly into groups of 5.
Side note: Should a Grandmaster have a Hammer, or keep his Sword? (Mine was modeled as Grandmaster Mordrak, but he isn't with us any more)
Yeah, knights aren't as broken as they superficially appear. Brutal alpha strike, but once you've weathered that each kill is a big loss to their firepower. Easiest army to table, no contest. They can break that dynamic by abusing Invisibility, but any army that can abuse Invisibility is broken.
It's not the rules that bother me, it's the godawful fluff that drives me to make jokes and negative comments. Mostly on my own personal blog rather than bugging people on a forum, but still. You asked though, and that would be why I have venom for Grey Knights.
Oh, and it's also the only army to encourage a single one true paint job that's drab grey, so there's that too.
Hating them for being a 4 unit codex, that beats my no matter what I do. The person that thought that giving draigo gate was a good idea, must have been a master designer
Grey Knights were especially broken in 5th edition (though I'd say less so than Eldar/Tau/Daemons/Necrons are now). Just consider how many "Counts as Grey Knights" armies were cropping up in that era; everyone wanted to be them and it made the game quite uninteresting; the super-rare specialist Grey Knights in every. single. battle. At least the current crop of broken is diverse.
A lot of people still hold on to that frustration, it wouldn't surprise me as well to learn they're primarily players of the current power-codexes, as all four of them were quite weak in that era, and haven't had their ire raised by subsequent balance screw-ups due to being on the winning side of it. I don't mean this in a malicious way, purely a case of not being victim to bad balancing since GK means they're less likely to be particularly angry about the current state of affairs versus the past, at least not as passionately.
I don't feel especially bad for GK themselves; the one thing I really dislike is the simplfiication of their close combat weapons, it was one of the more interesting things about them, choosing between initiative, attacks, invulns or strength was a good piece of design in a game where "choice" usually boils down to not taking the obvious points trap, and made a codex of otherwise similar units have very different roles purely from their choice of melee weapons.
What I do feel bad for is people who liked the idea of Inquisition armies; Witchunters and Daemonhunters. Thematically, GKs should be rare and obscenely powerful, and having them as a very limited but powerful support unit in a larger army worked mechanically and thematically, even if the overall dex wasn't very strong. Considering those armies still exist if you buy 4 codexes also strikes me as shameful.
The reason people hate Gk is force weapons and generally ap2/3 on every model. That twinned with a good psy dice pool makes them generally fairly good at killing other marines which makes up a large amount people's armies.
On the whining side not sure why interceptors get so much hate, yes they are expensive but loading them with psycanons or psilencers is really amusing and makes rear armouring vehicles really easy and when you have 4-8 s7 rending shots hitting av10 you will generally always take it out with a few storm bolters helping out
While on a practical level the GK codex is ( I guess ) supposed to be a standalone one, in my mind it's basically an ally -oriented book. It's so monotonous that it almost seems it was inteded for the players to take detachments from Inquisition, Assassins, and other imperial forces.
"Powerlevel" -wise I haven't had issues with them, and I mainly play CSM at that. There's much worse things out there.
Ridiculous concept - space marines are supposed to be the 'best of the best' but Grey Knights are space marines +1 which is idiotic because if how OP space marines are in the fluff.
Ap3 everywhere - why do they even need ap weapons when they fight Daemons predominantly and Daemons don't really wear armour.
Draigo - hate that guy; his fluff and his rules.
The player base (IME) - all feel sorry for themselves and don't think that the Dreadknight is extremely OP.
- they fix all of their problems with more Dreadknights.
- they get extremely annoyed if you say something bad about their codex, shouting:
Ally dex, mono-build, snooty edition etc.
Alpha striking - is the most boring list to play against.
They make ridiculous combinations with allies.
They only spam the best units (yet complain if other armies do *cough* Riptide spam *cough*).
Riptide spam isn't that great. Easily beaten, countered. I agree grey knights are pretty good which is what stems a lot of hate. I play orks and grey knights. I own 4 dreadknights, buying a fifth.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Riptide spam isn't that great. Easily beaten, countered. I agree grey knights are pretty good which is what stems a lot of hate. I play orks and grey knights. I own 4 dreadknights, buying a fifth.
Exactly, Riptide spam is easily beaten but Dreadknight spam isn't (because of how cheap they are).
The one 'issue' I ever had with grey knights was the nemesis dreadknight. Not the rules mind you, but the concept - I couldn't stand the fact the thing wasn't a walker! But then, I realized it's a matter of perspective. The NDK is not a close combat dreadnought, it's literally an oversized suit of terminator armor. It's basically a grey knight paladin with a few stat boosts. I just wish it actually looked like an oversized termie... That would've been cool!
If I ever start a GK army, I'll have to convert the NDK pretty heavily before I'll be satisfied with it.
I can sort of understand the hate for Draigo but then... Aren't all 40K special characters kinda ridiculous? I mean, us orks have Ghaz who's apparently the most psychic ork in the galaxy. He's a religious fanatic whose armor is basically the size of a battle tank and he can telepathically communicate with all the orks he has met in person and he's a tough as all hell, etc. To me, that's just about as outrageous as Draigo, but Ghaz gets a free pass because he's been around longer. I'm not criticizing Ghaz here, just pointing out that most SCs are over the top.
Not to mention the fact that in their latest codex, Draigo's fluff has actually been changed slightly. While he's still the most awesome GK ever, his banishment to the Warp makes him seem like a pretty tragic character all around, especially once you consider that the Chaos Gods can undo any damage he does in the Warp with a snap of their fingers. He's doomed to battle his archenemies forever and never get anywhere. I dig that sort of stuff myself.
@SGTPozy Their weapons are AP4 or better because all force weaponry is based on power weapons. They've had AP3 or better weapons since they were created. Even in the old Daemonhunter book, they were running around with power weapons. Hell, in 5th edition all of their stuff was AP2 even!
Honestly, I don't get why people hate them so much either. Then again, I was never around for 6th edition, so maybe that's the explanation. Bring on da shiny beakies I say! I'll krump dem like da rest o' da lot!
Pain4Pleasure wrote: I'm agreeing bro, not disagreeing. 2+5++(4++possible) is hard to get through.
I know, but I just hate Grey Knights too much (try not to take it personally).
Automatically Appended Next Post: "@SGTPozy Their weapons are AP4 or better because all force weaponry is based on power weapons. They've had AP3 or better weapons since they were created. Even in the old Daemonhunter book, they were running around with power weapons. Hell, in 5th edition all of their stuff was AP2 even!"
Just because it has always been like that it doesn't mean that it's right.
Take Imperial Knights, they've always been a super heavy only army but it doesn't mean that they're not annoying.
Ridiculous concept - space marines are supposed to be the 'best of the best' but Grey Knights are space marines +1 which is idiotic because if how OP space marines are in the fluff.
Fair point, but poor fluff is a poor reason to yell hate at an army.
The player base (IME) - all feel sorry for themselves and don't think that the Dreadknight is extremely OP.
I dont feel sorry for myself (but thanks for the free condescension!). And I don't think dreadknights are extremely OP. They used to be but they got justifiably toned down. Now they are "powerful" not "over powerful". You are living in the wrong edition.
- they get extremely annoyed if you say something bad about their codex, shouting:
If all you ever here is whining even after receiving balance, I think you would get annoyed too. And you cant even have an adult discussion about it. Its just "OMFG GK are OP and their players are arseholes!!!" which is pretty much your post in a nutshell.
They only spam the best units (yet complain if other armies do *cough* Riptide spam *cough*).
Again, would love variety. Our armies look like spam cause of the lack of variety. I personally would not run 3 x dreadknights cause anyone who does that in any army is cheese.
I don't get the hate towards dreadknights, don't really use my gk as much More than allies to mix things up now but last few games I've had vs gk they were easily dealt with.
Last game I took 2 down with a single 8 man deathcompany squad one after another, ended up with 2 guys left but that was a fair trade for me. Game before I played guard and faced 3 and none of them made it into combat.
There fear factor from previous editions is half there weaponry I swear, people either over commit to take them out and much up there game plan or run from them. It's just a big t6 s10 tterminator, shoot it, swamp it or throw i5+ models at it.
Also with regards to the person who said why do they need ap3 to kill daemons, it's the force part they need, the ap3 is just along for the ride. Also the inquisition use them to hunt traitor legions so the ap3 comes in handy.
With draigo his fluff is lame and I don't know why they couldn't bring other grandmasters into the last codex as isn't there ment to be a few. Equally for a Low he's about right, dante can give him a run for his money and I'm sure future codex will have a draigo of there own. Just not sw your guy kinda sucks, sorry
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and while people are commenting on overpowered monsterous creatures don't forget bel'akor, he would smash most of the others every day.
Yeah, I killed a lot of Dreadknights before I knew the Internet thinks they're scary.
Like with any monstrous creature without T8, massed fire works. As does most anti terminator shooting, and whilst it hits pretty hard it doesn't have the raw attacks to take out elite combat units tough enough to hurt it back.
The biggest problem is people see their high stats and powerful weapons and just assume OP. The raw power of something isn't relevant to it being OP or UP, its the power for points value. GKs are very powerful but pay a high premium for it. Simple as.
Overpowered should be units or models which have high power for low cost. How about grav weaponry for example? Especially on bikes.
I'm not complaining, just trying to give an example of something which has high power for a low cost.
dark_red wrote: I don't get the hate towards dreadknights, don't really use my gk as much More than allies to mix things up now but last few games I've had vs gk they were easily dealt with.
Last game I took 2 down with a single 8 man deathcompany squad one after another, ended up with 2 guys left but that was a fair trade for me. Game before I played guard and faced 3 and none of them made it into combat.
There fear factor from previous editions is half there weaponry I swear, people either over commit to take them out and much up there game plan or run from them. It's just a big t6 s10 tterminator, shoot it, swamp it or throw i5+ models at it.
Also with regards to the person who said why do they need ap3 to kill daemons, it's the force part they need, the ap3 is just along for the ride. Also the inquisition use them to hunt traitor legions so the ap3 comes in handy.
With draigo his fluff is lame and I don't know why they couldn't bring other grandmasters into the last codex as isn't there ment to be a few. Equally for a Low he's about right, dante can give him a run for his money and I'm sure future codex will have a draigo of there own. Just not sw your guy kinda sucks, sorry
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and while people are commenting on overpowered monsterous creatures don't forget bel'akor, he would smash most of the others every day.
was he invisible? That's what makes him so good now, hitting on 6 wounding on what ever but then he normally has a bloody good cover save of 2+ if you play him right. He's a tough cookie.
-5e
-we house rule grey knights to effectively cost 25% more (actually said the opponent gets 25% more points,) and I trounce 3 armies in a row with that handicap to seal the deal. One game going so far as to lose only one razorback and two power armor guys in a 2k vs 2500.
-tau 6e come out.
-we immediately toss the handicap away for grey knights.
niv-mizzet wrote: -5e
-we house rule grey knights to effectively cost 25% more (actually said the opponent gets 25% more points,) and I trounce 3 armies in a row with that handicap to seal the deal. One game going so far as to lose only one razorback and two power armor guys in a 2k vs 2500.
-tau 6e come out.
-we immediately toss the handicap away for grey knights.
The "we play what we have" defense makes me think of our tyranid guy, who will ALWAYS run max flyrants, and when we call him out on it in what's supposed to be a friendly non-competitive house game, he's all like "ITS MY ONLY GOOD UNIT GUYS, I CANT WIN WITHOUT THEM."
Not saying the GK are like this. I recognize that they actually do just have a severe shortage of selections, since I frequently go through codices and build lists for every army.
Lobukia wrote: I don't hate on GK, I feel bad for there GK players. Weak sauce codex.
Now fluff GK I can't stand. They kill innocents just to make a bolt gun round, allow the destruction of planets to keep their secret, and kidnap small children to raise them as sacrifices for their armor. Why do they do these horrendous acts?
Because they're pure.
Tzeentch is chuckling while Malcador turns in his stasis pod.
If we kill them - they can't turn them. It's the logical choice .
Automatically Appended Next Post: Losing psybolt and making psycannon salvo effectively removing strike squads/dreads/and razors from viability. Then they made terms cheaper as well as dreadknights. They did it to sell models...
This may be a local meta thing but the reason I dislike Gk at the moment is because the players say: 'All the unit choice got sliced out of the codex and now it's a mono-build dex'. Seriously, every GK list with 5th ed codex I encountered involved: Henchmen, assassins, dreadknights. The lists I faced were just as mono-build as they are now.
That and the fact that I've got people whining they 'need to bring 3 DK's in order to stand a chance' when I'm running Thousand sons.
Ridiculous concept - space marines are supposed to be the 'best of the best' but Grey Knights are space marines +1 which is idiotic because if how OP space marines are in the fluff.
Fair point, but poor fluff is a poor reason to yell hate at an army.
That's why it is only one of the points. Yet again I will refer to Tau; people the how they aren't 'grimdark' enough, so they hate them.
The player base (IME) - all feel sorry for themselves and don't think that the Dreadknight is extremely OP.
I dont feel sorry for myself (but thanks for the free condescension!). And I don't think dreadknights are extremely OP. They used to be but they got justifiably toned down. Now they are "powerful" not "over powerful". You are living in the wrong edition.
In my experience. I say that they are since Riptides and Wraithknights are, so Dreadknights are too.
- they get extremely annoyed if you say something bad about their codex, shouting:
If all you ever here is whining even after receiving balance, I think you would get annoyed too. And you cant even have an adult discussion about it. Its just "OMFG GK are OP and their players are arseholes!!!" which is pretty much your post in a nutshell.
No, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't swear. GK players IN MY EXPERIENCE have all been dicks, and this thread is about GK hate, so I said why I hate them.
Again, yell at GW, not us. We would love more variety too.
GKs should be an ally dex since they are usually an aly in the fluff.
There are more builds but they aren't as powerful as Dreadknight spam and Draigo.
Close combat isn't that hard to get to.
They only spam the best units (yet complain if other armies do *cough* Riptide spam *cough*).
Again, would love variety. Our armies look like spam cause of the lack of variety. I personally would not run 3 x dreadknights cause anyone who does that in any army is cheese.
I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.
This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.
Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.
Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
I find it hard to swallow that Tau can't put out enough fire to stop some shunting Dreadknights. Hell, BA can do it. And that's a bottom 25% codex. Putting 4 units in someone's face is weak sauce compared to 5th ed SW drop lists. The would sometimes scheme up five or six.
Martel732 wrote: I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.
This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.
Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.
Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.
On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.
From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)
Martel732 wrote: I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.
This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.
Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.
Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.
On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.
From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)
They can't do that the turn they shunt. I only need that one turn usually to get out assault range or gun them down mercilessly. They have the same syndrome as deep striking assault units. The one turn delay assault lag is literally killer. There's a reason DoA went from meaning "Descent of Angels" to "Dead on arrival".
Martel732 wrote: I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.
This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.
Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.
Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.
On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.
From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)
They can't do that the turn they shunt. I only need that one turn usually to get out assault range or gun them down mercilessly. They have the same syndrome as deep striking assault units. The one turn delay assault lag is literally killer. There's a reason DoA went from meaning "Descent of Angels" to "Dead on arrival".
Gunning them down mercilessly: 3 IA/Fusion Riptides and 6 Missilesides do not on average put out enough damage to kill 2 Dreadknights with Sanctuary (about 6.9 hp without Marker support, which is not a given, he.might Incinetator/Psycannon them, might shunt with toe in terrain requiring ignore cover etc.).
Moving out of assault range: Riptides move 6 and jump 2d6. Broadsides move 6 and can run 1d6 if they forfeit shooting. Dreadknight moves 12 and charges 2d6. Not particularly great escape odds.
EDIT: I really am curious about a BA setup that guns down 3 Dreadknights in a round.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
I find it hard to swallow that Tau can't put out enough fire to stop some shunting Dreadknights. Hell, BA can do it. And that's a bottom 25% codex. Putting 4 units in someone's face is weak sauce compared to 5th ed SW drop lists. The would sometimes scheme up five or six.
Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DKOP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?
That's not surprising. 2+ armor is where missilesides stop being terrifying; especially against T6. The IA is also weak vs MCs so that's not surprising either. There has to be some weakness to a list that can burn down an entire marine list from 60" away and take no casualties in return. "
Sounds like Tau players have no problem handing out the turn 3 tablings, but can't accept them when they come their way.
I don't hate the Grey Knights book. For that matter I had a Daemonhunters army at one point.
I do hate the dreadknight, and for several seperate reasons.
a) It conflicts with one of the fundamental images of the grey knights - the lone paladin staring up at the monster towering over him. Have a look at the cover of Dark Heresy: Daemonhunter for the sort of thing I mean. They aren't an army which feels like it should be doing pacific rim impressions.
b) A big part of their effectiveness is an option which contradicts itself - the personal teleporter. Interceptor Squads wear powered armour rather than terminator plate because personal teleporters can't cope with the bulk of terminator armour. Apparently, if that terminator armour is strapped to a giant armoured baby carrier three times bigger still, everythings fine....
c) It's really not an especially nice model (personal taste, obviously).
d) The combination of 2+ armour save and T6 monstrous creature with-one-turn-to-kill-it-before-it-reaches-you which started with this is what prompted things like grav weapons being spammable for a ha'porth of points as a counter, which in turn rendered significant chunks of other armies (even more) useless.
e) Taking the above four points, the fact that it's so much damn better point for point than anything else in the codex means that every Grey Knight army I see is heavily built around what I think is an unfluffy, game-balance wrecking, ugly unit. To make matters worse, I have similar views of the Centurion Warsuit....and guess what any Grey Knight army has inevitably allied in and attached to Draigo?
Martel732 wrote: I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.
This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.
Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.
Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.
On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.
From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)
They can't do that the turn they shunt. I only need that one turn usually to get out assault range or gun them down mercilessly. They have the same syndrome as deep striking assault units. The one turn delay assault lag is literally killer. There's a reason DoA went from meaning "Descent of Angels" to "Dead on arrival".
Gunning them down mercilessly: 3 IA/Fusion Riptides and 6 Missilesides do not on average put out enough damage to kill 2 Dreadknights with Sanctuary (about 6.9 hp without Marker support, which is not a given, he.might Incinetator/Psycannon them, might shunt with toe in terrain requiring ignore cover etc.).
Moving out of assault range: Riptides move 6 and jump 2d6. Broadsides move 6 and can run 1d6 if they forfeit shooting. Dreadknight moves 12 and charges 2d6. Not particularly great escape odds.
EDIT: I really am curious about a BA setup that guns down 3 Dreadknights in a round.
Yeah and we are putting more than just DK forward - sometimes interceptors, usually terminators with a few libbies - my GK strategy is always to overwhelm turn 1. It works amazing against tau.
I don't need to kill all of them. Only the ones that will reach on their next turn. Or the one not being visited by the DC w/some power fists. BA speed is good for running away, too.
Martel732 wrote: I don't need to kill all of them. Only the ones that will reach on their next turn. Or the one not being visited by the DC w/some power fists. BA speed is good for running away, too.
Yeah against a BA army I wouldn't rush in like that. Most my army would be in reserve and I'd just take pot shots at you all game and use my mobilitiy. It would be a decent matchup. Idk what you run in BA but the BA I play against bring 3 SR so I usually am fighting an uphill battle - Usually I'm fighting allong side BA in 2v2's and I know DC aint nothing to mess around with.
As a faction, I like the Grey Knights, heck the Daemon Hunters were the army that I started 40k with. My main issue with them as present is that they lost alot of the stuff they had in the old 3e book, like Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, to gain Dreadknights.
I don't like Dreadknights, not because of rules, I just don't like the ascetic of the model, nor do I like the concept in the fluff. To me personally the Grey Knights used to be more about the strength of will, and one man against the odds can save the day. Now sure that one man can save the day, but now he's in a giant robot, rather than facing down a Blood Thirster while on foot in his Terminator armor.
That said, I think the Paladins are pretty cool, same for the Interceptor Squads. I had been wanting Teleporter Pack models since DoW: Dark Crusade.
Martel732 wrote: I don't need to kill all of them. Only the ones that will reach on their next turn. Or the one not being visited by the DC w/some power fists. BA speed is good for running away, too.
Yeah against a BA army I wouldn't rush in like that. Most my army would be in reserve and I'd just take pot shots at you all game and use my mobilitiy. It would be a decent matchup. Idk what you run in BA but the BA I play against bring 3 SR so I usually am fighting an uphill battle - Usually I'm fighting allong side BA in 2v2's and I know DC aint nothing to mess around with.
I usually run zero SR, but run a lot of AP 2 shooting, because most meqs, and lighter units I just punch in the face.
"Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DKOP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?"
I was referencing this post, not your post. I've been embarrassed by Taudar too many times to times to be completely objective here.
Martel732 wrote: "Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DKOP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?"
I was referencing this post, not your post. I've been embarrassed by Taudar too many times to times to be completely objective here.
Taudar was in 6th, we're in 7th now buddy. By the same logic we should all hate GKs because of their Ward dex.
Martel732 wrote: "Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DKOP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?"
I was referencing this post, not your post. I've been embarrassed by Taudar too many times to times to be completely objective here.
Taudar was in 6th, we're in 7th now buddy. By the same logic we should all hate GKs because of their Ward dex.
Dude I still hate hormagaunts because of 2nd.
"It's Martel, most of what he says makes no sense"
For those who don't like the aesthetic of the "baby carrier" Dreadknight, I have seen people change it, not putting on the Terminator and instead closing off the front with cool looking bits, and putting an Imperial Knight head on top, so it looks more like an over-sized terminator.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.
Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.
Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.
I saw a list with six grav cents do it. But yes, it's hard to kill 3-4 MCs in a single turn.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.
Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.
I saw a list with six grav cents do it. But yes, it's hard to kill 3-4 MCs in a single turn.
Well SM and their Grav Cents are extremely cheesy so I am not surprised.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.
Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.
Tau run a variety of things. It's a result of basically everything in the codex being good enough to play. Unlike GK which have libbies and DK and cheap troop termies.
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jreilly89 wrote: I have no sympathy for Tau, but seeing GK murder them without breaking a sweat sucks.
Also, the baby carrier is dumb.
I really don't have much sympathy for them ether. If I played any other way I'd get wiped out pretty quick and maybe not completely destroy any units in their army.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.
I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.
Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.
Tau run a variety of things. It's a result of basically everything in the codex being good enough to play. Unlike GK which have libbies and DK and cheap troop termies.
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jreilly89 wrote: I have no sympathy for Tau, but seeing GK murder them without breaking a sweat sucks.
Also, the baby carrier is dumb.
I really don't have much sympathy for them ether. If I played any other way I'd get wiped out pretty quick and maybe not completely destroy any units in their army.
As a DA player, I know that feeling bro. I have one or two lists that I run that can take Tsu. That's it.
I have yet to test my Daemons, but I think they have some more flexibility.
It sounds like I'm being called out for not understanding BA. Or that my posts about them make no sense. Is this correct? And if so, please provide some specifics.
Wow... That sounds extremely immature, don't you think maybe you should grow up and move on?
I'll say the same to you. You're stuck on a rage train against GKs that left the station when 6th edition came out.
The difference is that Martel loves to say about how his army sucks because he cannot play them whilst I hate on the most ridiculous army in the game as their net-list players.
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Martel732 wrote: It sounds like I'm being called out for not understanding BA. Or that my posts about them make no sense. Is this correct? And if so, please provide some specifics.
Drop pods suck because YOU cannot get them to work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about we not go down this road on this thread? I'll be happy to continue in pm but let's not derail this thread, okay?
Wow... That sounds extremely immature, don't you think maybe you should grow up and move on?
I'll say the same to you. You're stuck on a rage train against GKs that left the station when 6th edition came out.
The difference is that Martel loves to say about how his army sucks because he cannot play them whilst I hate on the most ridiculous army in the game as their net-list players.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: It sounds like I'm being called out for not understanding BA. Or that my posts about them make no sense. Is this correct? And if so, please provide some specifics.
Drop pods suck because YOU cannot get them to work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about we not go down this road on this thread? I'll be happy to continue in pm but let's not derail this thread, okay?
You brought it up, chief. I'm not going to run off to PM when I didn't start it.
"Drop pods suck because YOU cannot get them to work"
Not true. I don't think they are a good choice for a TAC environment. With a priori knowledge, I'd use them a lot more. I don't think BA are a good pod list in general though.
You brought it up, chief. I'm not going to run off to PM when I didn't start it.
Well, I've already said about how drop pods are 'useless'.
You say that your troops (so tactical marines) are 'useless' even though if used TACTICALLY, they are good.
You think that you have no useful fire power as it "isn't as good as xeno's".
You view terminators as being a storm bolter, when their main feature is their 2+ 5++.
Mephiston 'sucks' apparently.
Need I continue?
I don't own allies. I'm not giving GW that kind of jack. It's not THAT important. So if that's your big plan if we list swap, you are t-totally hosed.
Drop pods aren't useless, just not a good choice for TACBA lists. I seem to have a lot more success defending against drop lists than you. Who is complaining about their army now?
I hate tac marines. Lots of other posters find them terrible as well. Lots of posters think they are great. That seems like a split decision there.
Xeno dedicated firepower lists have a lot more firepower than most marine lists, and especially BA lists. In a shooting edition, that seems like a big advantage to me.
Tac Terminators are perhaps the worst unit in C:SM or BA and there is non-trivial level of consensus that they are, at best, poor.
Mephiston is terrific. Better than in the Wardex, imo.
locarno24 wrote: I don't hate the Grey Knights book. For that matter I had a Daemonhunters army at one point.
I do hate the dreadknight, and for several seperate reasons.
a) It conflicts with one of the fundamental images of the grey knights - the lone paladin staring up at the monster towering over him. Have a look at the cover of Dark Heresy: Daemonhunter for the sort of thing I mean. They aren't an army which feels like it should be doing pacific rim impressions.
This was explained in the 5th Ed DreadKnight unit entry, pre-Pacific Rim: <paraphrasing> "to fight the greatest of Greater Daemons, the Nemesis DreadKnight was created."
b) A big part of their effectiveness is an option which contradicts itself - the personal teleporter. Interceptor Squads wear powered armour rather than terminator plate because personal teleporters can't cope with the bulk of terminator armour. Apparently, if that terminator armour is strapped to a giant armoured baby carrier three times bigger still, everythings fine....
Also explained in the unit entry, Interceptors are Strikers with the mental fortitude to shield themselves whle transisting the Warp, because their Power Armor does not include the same shielding as Tactical Dreadnought Armor. While no further mention as made as to why TDA does not mount their own Personal Teleporters, it as implied that Nemesis DreadKnights have the power to use their own PTs. One could say its a power to mass issue.
c) It's really not an especially nice model (personal taste, obviously).
Aesthetics are a personal things, do can't fault you for that. On the other hand, as a huge Shirow Masamune fan, I quite like the look.
d) The combination of 2+ armour save and T6 monstrous creature with-one-turn-to-kill-it-before-it-reaches-you which started with this is what prompted things like grav weapons being spammable for a ha'porth of points as a counter, which in turn rendered significant chunks of other armies (even more) useless.
DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature. 2+/5+++ T6 is nothing special when most AP1-2 is S8+. Being a Jump MC at 200-230 points is a huge nerf when all the other Jump MC ftom 5th got promoted to Flying MCs in 6th. Add to that Grav weapons, hidden powerklaws, Riptide-Broadside-Marklight shenanigans, and WraithKnights, all solid DK-Killers, knocking the DK down even further. At this point, if you are afraid of a couple DreadKnights, you need to switch to a different game of toy soldiers. Yes, people can still field 8 DKs at 1850 in a Battleforged list, but you can also field 5 Imperial Knights at 1850, or an entire Flying Nid army, or an entire T5 Grav Marine list. I mean seriously, either play better, or play better people.
e) Taking the above four points, the fact that it's so much damn better point for point than anything else in the codex means that every Grey Knight army I see is heavily built around what I think is an unfluffy, game-balance wrecking, ugly unit. To make matters worse, I have similar views of the Centurion Warsuit....and guess what any Grey Knight army has inevitably allied in and attached to Draigo?
Taking all the above points, the fact that you are adverse to change is pretty clear. Sorry to hear.
Grey Knights were to 5th edition what Daemons of Chaos were to 7th in Fantasy, namely, they were the single army that utterly ruined the game for a majority of players & simply left you with a bad taste in your mouth.
While they didn't cause an excessive case of 'power-creep', (due to them being the last "true" 5th edition codex, unlike DoC which were only the 4th book of 7th), they certainly did force multiple armies to pretty much just quit and sit on the sidelines...
1. Daemons were actually unable to even legally deploy against GK's due to Warp Quake. Even just a single Quake-capable squad, used properly, would utterly bone the entire Daemon army due to the massive bubble of instant mishap it created. RAW, 'juggling' misshaping units between/within quake bubble(s) was possible to ensure a 50/50 shot at auto-killing any unit that had the misfortune of scattering into a quake zone.
On top of all the other obnoxious crap GK's got to help pick on Daemons (and by extension other Psykers), specifically.
2. Tyranids were rendered completely harmless by both Coteaz armies and min/maxed Purifyer spam. They had no defense other than their SitW to guard against the aptly named "Winning Flame" which would outright decimate their units.
Those walls of Psybacks were a pain as well, due to 5th making even light transports 'uber, combined with a sickening lack of viable anti-tank within the Tyranid codex.
All those massed Psycannons everywhere, on top of S5 Storm Bolters helped to chew up their supposed numbers advantage. The frankly broken as feth I6! Pointy-Death-Sticks simply made all the medium & monstrous bugs, bar the Swarmlord cry... I guess they still had the Doom as well, but, overall, Knights simply laughed at the bugs.
3. Orks were shoehorned into playing a 'Kanwall' + max Lootas army, occasionally sprinkled with a Battlewagon or two. But again, a Xenos close combat army was utterly neutered simply by the combinations (and popularity) of Purifyers, who had an answer for absolutely anything the Orks could throw at them. (flamez da Boyz, force da Toyz)
4. BA's were forced into playing av11/av13 wall. All their uniqueness of being the 'close combat Marine army' and 'jump pack specialists' were nerfed to Kingdom Come simply because GK's in combat were BA's +1000. Power toys for almost everyone to remove saves & FnP, I6 to auto-counter even charging BA's, Warp Quake to remove any DoA potential...
GK's sucked for BA's more so than any other updated Marine Chapter.
Plus all the additional gimmicks such as 'suck-my-****' grenades that could auto-win any combat, obnoxiously undercosted upgrades such as 5pts Psybolts on dual Autocannon Dreads, Fortitude on Rhinos/Razorbacks...
Draigo allowing GK's to build the ultimate Deathstar unit at the time, during a point in the game where not only were counters to a multi-wound 2+/5++ models lacking, but the missions for most part also heavily favoured such as unit as well. (Kill Points for example was pretty much an auto-win for Draigowing!)
All this epicness meant that seemingly every single power gamer, cheesehead and/or TFG flocked to GK's en mass. They were all you ever seemed to see, and there was no such thing for the most part of a 'fun' GK list to face.
Most of the time, it seemed you ended up fighting one of the 3 staple power lists, (Draigowing/Crowewing/Henchmen spam), and most games simply turned into an exercise in how to get tabled & handle it with grace.
While Grey Knights are nothing like that anymore, it does take a long time for people to forget, let alone forgive 'That One Army' which ended up ruining the game for them... Hell, look at Fantasy! Daemons of Chaos are the outright most abysmal book of 8th edition. (you think GK's is lacking in choice - try playing Tzeentch of Khorne in Fantasy!)
Yet because of 'that one summer' where a minority of ***hats trolled everyone with abusive DoC armies, every single Daemon player is still taking a large amount of flack because of it.
Martel732 wrote: "DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature"
Aneurysms in 3... 2... 1...
I wouldn't say weak, but they are certainly nothing special at all. Especially given the range of their weapons.
Okay, Martel, I was thinking they're crazy for caling you crazy, but c'mon. Breaking down the statline, a DK is pretty good. It's too bad their range sucks, if only they could move clo-oh wait, they can do exactly that!
When DKs were pushing 270pts, no one ran them with more than one range weapon, which was the Incinerator, and the all important Great Sword, which was totally overpowered.
At 225-230 points, they are reasonably priced for what you get, which is neither overpriced nor overpowered. The Great Sword was nerfed with a huge price cut to match. The H Psycannon was made usable, and the Psiliencer was made interesting. The Hammer was made worthwhile. The Personal Teleporter was priced correctly. All in all, the DK is much better than it was, and still the only Heavy option worth taking.
Martel732 wrote: "DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature"
Aneurysms in 3... 2... 1...
I wouldn't say weak, but they are certainly nothing special at all. Especially given the range of their weapons.
Okay, Martel, I was thinking they're crazy for caling you crazy, but c'mon. Breaking down the statline, a DK is pretty good. It's too bad their range sucks, if only they could move clo-oh wait, they can do exactly that!
Jeffersonian made the original claim. Not me. I said "nothing special". They aren't. So I'm crazy for saying they are nothing special? Okay.
" It's too bad their range sucks,"
This is actually a non-trivial problem, as they have to put themselves within range of every AP 2 gun in the game to use their weapons. Most AP 2 weapons wound T6 just fine.
Martel732 wrote: "DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature"
Aneurysms in 3... 2... 1...
I wouldn't say weak, but they are certainly nothing special at all. Especially given the range of their weapons.
Okay, Martel, I was thinking they're crazy for caling you crazy, but c'mon. Breaking down the statline, a DK is pretty good. It's too bad their range sucks, if only they could move clo-oh wait, they can do exactly that!
Jeffersonian made the original claim. Not me. I said "nothing special". They aren't. So I'm crazy for saying they are nothing special? Okay.
" It's too bad their range sucks,"
This is actually a non-trivial problem, as they have to put themselves within range of every AP 2 gun in the game to use their weapons. Most AP 2 weapons wound T6 just fine.
Right, a 2+ 5++ T6 with a 30" jump is nothing special. Yeah, they may put themselves in range of the AP 2, but they either a) kill said AP 2 weapons or b) throw up Sanctuary and laugh.
Martel732 wrote: "DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature"
Aneurysms in 3... 2... 1...
I wouldn't say weak, but they are certainly nothing special at all. Especially given the range of their weapons.
They are a good breaching unit - that is all. Their toughness for their points is seriously lacking - though they do have excellent weapons. I'd much rather centurions and yeah...i usually take them too lol.
Going from 5++ to 4++ is NOT enough to make them laugh at incoming fire. That's actually more incoming wounds cleared than a TH/SS terminator. They are not laughing at my BA lists, which means they are not laughing at C:SM or Eldar, either. I'll take everyone's word on Tau, I guess.
Martel732 wrote: "DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature"
Aneurysms in 3... 2... 1...
I wouldn't say weak, but they are certainly nothing special at all. Especially given the range of their weapons.
They are a good breaching unit - that is all. Their toughness for their points is seriously lacking - though they do have excellent weapons. I'd much rather centurions and yeah...i usually take them too lol.
Thats why Centurions with GK are so common. DKs are great in your face units, then you just sit back and pelt them with whatever: TF Cannons, Centurions, etc.
jreilly89 wrote: Right, a 2+ 5++ T6 with a 30" jump is nothing special. Yeah, they may put themselves in range of the AP 2, but they either a) kill said AP 2 weapons or b) throw up Sanctuary and laugh.
It is a fact that there is a lot of AP2 on the table this edition. That 2+ save isn't going to be used much. A 5++ invul only has a 1/3 chance of saving you from any AP2 shot, and as others have said, most AP2 weaponry is Strength 8 or higher, so that T6 isn't going to help beyond making most shots not Instant Death, but he only has 4 wounds to begin with anyway. And a successful casting of Sanctuary without perils and not denied only raises his invul to a 50% chance of blocking each incoming wound.
Dreadknights may be the best unit in the Codex, but anyone who says they're over-powered or unstoppable must be really bad at list building and/or initial setup. Dreadknights are good, and the Grey Knights have to pay for them. Each Dreadknight reduces the number of models the Grey Knights can field, in an army that is already quite small compared to everyone else.
jreilly89 wrote: Right, a 2+ 5++ T6 with a 30" jump is nothing special. Yeah, they may put themselves in range of the AP 2, but they either a) kill said AP 2 weapons or b) throw up Sanctuary and laugh.
It is a fact that there is a lot of AP2 on the table this edition. That 2+ save isn't going to be used much. A 5++ invul only has a 1/3 chance of saving you from any AP2 shot, and as others have said, most AP2 weaponry is Strength 8 or higher, so that T6 isn't going to help beyond making most shots not Instant Death, but he only has 4 wounds to begin with anyway. And a successful casting of Sanctuary without perils and not denied only raises his invul to a 50% chance of blocking each incoming wound.
Dreadknights may be the best unit in the Codex, but anyone who says they're over-powered or unstoppable must be really bad at list building and/or initial setup. Dreadknights are good, and the Grey Knights have to pay for them. Each Dreadknight reduces the number of models the Grey Knights can field, in an army that is already quite small compared to everyone else.
Don't forget there are units that can assault them and kill them and/or tarpit them forever. I suspect that Wraiths or TWC would eventually kill the thing, though.
I'm surpized no one has complained about GOI. The truely OP spell that only GK can take. To go along with vortex of doom witch is an incredibly strong power. Usually when it lands on something juicy the gods will favor you with a 6 or two and make you do a little jigg - for example when you one shot an IK or some other really expensive unit.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm surpized no one has complained about GOI. The truely OP spell that only GK can take. To go along with vortex of doom witch is an incredibly strong power. Usually when it lands on something juicy the gods will favor you with a 6 or two and make you do a little jigg - for example when you one shot an IK or some other really expensive unit.
I personally don't use a lot of expensive units, so that scheme wouldn't bother me too much.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm surpized no one has complained about GOI. The truely OP spell that only GK can take. To go along with vortex of doom witch is an incredibly strong power. Usually when it lands on something juicy the gods will favor you with a 6 or two and make you do a little jigg - for example when you one shot an IK or some other really expensive unit.
in fairness everyone can use it, Grey Knights are just much more reliable with it
jreilly89 wrote: Right, a 2+ 5++ T6 with a 30" jump is nothing special. Yeah, they may put themselves in range of the AP 2, but they either a) kill said AP 2 weapons or b) throw up Sanctuary and laugh.
It is a fact that there is a lot of AP2 on the table this edition. That 2+ save isn't going to be used much. A 5++ invul only has a 1/3 chance of saving you from any AP2 shot, and as others have said, most AP2 weaponry is Strength 8 or higher, so that T6 isn't going to help beyond making most shots not Instant Death, but he only has 4 wounds to begin with anyway. And a successful casting of Sanctuary without perils and not denied only raises his invul to a 50% chance of blocking each incoming wound.
Dreadknights may be the best unit in the Codex, but anyone who says they're over-powered or unstoppable must be really bad at list building and/or initial setup. Dreadknights are good, and the Grey Knights have to pay for them. Each Dreadknight reduces the number of models the Grey Knights can field, in an army that is already quite small compared to everyone else.
Still, the plan is to kill them before they can retaliate. DK can do that well, especially with Allies or Psychic powers. DKs are at least on par with Riptides in terms of effectiveness. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many Dreadknights in every GK army.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm surpized no one has complained about GOI. The truely OP spell that only GK can take. To go along with vortex of doom witch is an incredibly strong power. Usually when it lands on something juicy the gods will favor you with a 6 or two and make you do a little jigg - for example when you one shot an IK or some other really expensive unit.
in fairness everyone can use it, Grey Knights are just much more reliable with it
Only Ahriman truly abuses the crap out of it though, since he can combo it with 3x Psy Shrieks and allow you to effectively auto-delete whatever the hell you want that doesn't have an AV value...
Plus him getting Sanctuary with an escort of MoT Termies gives CSM's their own 3++ unit!
Now if people really want to do a proper job of making Grey Knights overpowered as feth, then it's all about milking Santic + key allies...
The Tiggy + Draigo Centstar is one, but then you can also build an equally nasty unit out of 5 Pallies w/double Psycannons + Libby + IG Priest. Add in Draigo for even more lols. Cast Sanctuary for the +1 to invulns, then use the Priest's ability to re-roll all saves in combat. Shove in a Land Raider and have some fun.
Or else go for the =I= version utilising Crusaders for wound soaking, Deathcults w/Hammerhand for pasting things, (taking power mauls gives them S8!lol), the requisite GK Libby to gain upto 4 rolls on Santic, and the IG Priest for re-rolling saves in combat.
Or take the Azreal Infantry Platoon one step further by throwing in a GK Libby w/Book for near guaranteed Sanctuary, and build a blob of 50 grunts all sporting a 3++...
Another fun one that drives flyer heavy armies crazy is a unit of Purifyers led by an allied psyker running even more Santic, potentially allowing a single Rhino to pull of a double Cleansing Flame! (did this once through Ahriman - outright nuked 2 Nurgle Daemon Princes right out of the sky thanks to 4D6/S5, cover ignoring auto-hits to each! )
Dreadknights are cool and all, but seriously, Santic spam is where the GK's real cheddary goodness lies!
jreilly89 wrote: Right, a 2+ 5++ T6 with a 30" jump is nothing special. Yeah, they may put themselves in range of the AP 2, but they either a) kill said AP 2 weapons or b) throw up Sanctuary and laugh.
It is a fact that there is a lot of AP2 on the table this edition. That 2+ save isn't going to be used much. A 5++ invul only has a 1/3 chance of saving you from any AP2 shot, and as others have said, most AP2 weaponry is Strength 8 or higher, so that T6 isn't going to help beyond making most shots not Instant Death, but he only has 4 wounds to begin with anyway. And a successful casting of Sanctuary without perils and not denied only raises his invul to a 50% chance of blocking each incoming wound.
Dreadknights may be the best unit in the Codex, but anyone who says they're over-powered or unstoppable must be really bad at list building and/or initial setup. Dreadknights are good, and the Grey Knights have to pay for them. Each Dreadknight reduces the number of models the Grey Knights can field, in an army that is already quite small compared to everyone else.
Still, the plan is to kill them before they can retaliate. DK can do that well, especially with Allies or Psychic powers. DKs are at least on par with Riptides in terms of effectiveness. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many Dreadknights in every GK army.
Or, as many people have stated, they are the only viable HS slot choice. They don't need to be on par with Riptides if that is the case. I personally don't think they are nearly as good.
jreilly89 wrote: Still, the plan is to kill them before they can retaliate. DK can do that well, especially with Allies or Psychic powers. DKs are at least on par with Riptides in terms of effectiveness. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many Dreadknights in every GK army.
That isn't quite true. The number of Dreadknights used in GK armies has nothing to do with how they stack up against Riptides. It has everything to do with them being the most cost-effective unit in the codex. And after a shunt, the Dreadknights can only shoot, which means the enemy has an entire shooting phase before it can get into the (relative) safety of close combat.
If you haven't played Grey Knights for yourself, I would reccomend it. I believe you would find Dreadknights not to be nearly as powerful as you seem to believe.
jreilly89 wrote: Right, a 2+ 5++ T6 with a 30" jump is nothing special. Yeah, they may put themselves in range of the AP 2, but they either a) kill said AP 2 weapons or b) throw up Sanctuary and laugh.
It is a fact that there is a lot of AP2 on the table this edition. That 2+ save isn't going to be used much. A 5++ invul only has a 1/3 chance of saving you from any AP2 shot, and as others have said, most AP2 weaponry is Strength 8 or higher, so that T6 isn't going to help beyond making most shots not Instant Death, but he only has 4 wounds to begin with anyway. And a successful casting of Sanctuary without perils and not denied only raises his invul to a 50% chance of blocking each incoming wound.
Dreadknights may be the best unit in the Codex, but anyone who says they're over-powered or unstoppable must be really bad at list building and/or initial setup. Dreadknights are good, and the Grey Knights have to pay for them. Each Dreadknight reduces the number of models the Grey Knights can field, in an army that is already quite small compared to everyone else.
That there is a lot of AP2 on the table this edition (not in my codex by the way ) does not mean that the 2+ is not going to be used much. In fact it will be used most of the time in fighting against most armies. Who on Earth has an army where AP2 weapons are more than a small minority?
Alcibiades wrote: That there is a lot of AP2 on the table this edition (not in my codex by the way ) does not mean that the 2+ is not going to be used much. In fact it will be used most of the time in fighting against most armies. Who on Earth has an army where AP2 weapons are more than a small minority?
In my experience, Whatever AP2 they have will be directed at the Dreadknight, and the rest of the shots are used on squishier units.
They are mono build,
People mostly don't understand that you have mediocre(with a few good options)
or crap that is so bad it would be tough to beat kroot.
And our codex barely beats out the harlequin dex for units.
Slayer222 wrote: They are mono build,
People mostly don't understand that you have mediocre(with a few good options)
or crap that is so bad it would be tough to beat kroot.
And our codex barely beats out the harlequin dex for units.
Sisters have less units than Grey Knights. Thats even counting Land Raiders as one unit and not 3 distinct ones or counting your dedicated transports. They also have no non apocalypse formations or even any special detachments. I'm just saying there are codexes worse off without trunign this into another Sisters martyr thread. I don't think Grey Knights is really intended to be a stand alone codex much like Sisters. They don't function like an army in the fluff for the most part.
I know I'm on the tail end of this, but I am genuinely curious about the Codex GK units. It seems like many people in this thread have said that the GK Codex only has specific good units, while the rest are trash.
I guess what I'm curious about it, "just how bad are we talking?"
The thing is, most codexes seem to have both good and bad units, and while I'm not taking total amount of units into consideration for your dex, if you take the quote, bad units, and compare them to units available in other Codexes, are your bad units actually bad only because of comparison to your good units, or are they actually technically worse than comparable units in other dex's?
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the desire for more variety in your dex, but I wanna know if your bad units really are unviable for some reason. I have bad units in both my Codexes for BA and DA for instance, but it doesn't stop me from taking them if they're the only option I have if I want to play without allies. I could "technically" only limit myself to certain units, just like many GK players seem to be saying they do, but I imagine I'd get bored super fast.
I also ask this because I would love to know if what you consider a "bad" unit is actually just as good as my regular units. If higher points are the reason, your unit might have something mine does not, but like I said, I'm really curious about this whole "bad unit" position, but I don't have a GK dex myself to use for comparisons.
1) The only special weapons PA units have access to are Incinerators, Psylincers, and Psycannons. Psycannons are only good on relentless platfroms because they're Salvo weaponry. Unless you stand still, you are effectively only range 12 and 2 shots. And even if you do stand still, you're still only range 24. Old psycannons still got 2 shots at max range if you moved, so you could still move and hit enemy units with some shots. Now PA units with psycannons are basically limited to either moving or shooting.
2) PA units are significantly more expensive than other PA units, yet have no increased durability and their offensive increase is limited to melee or very short range shooting. We also don't have access to Drop Pods to get our guys close.
Basically, we're overpaying for force weapons that are only useful in very rare cases(otherwise they're just power weapons) and we have limited number of attacks to benefit from those force weapons.
3) Our vehicle options are really bad compared to every other codex. Land Raiders are universally overpriced and taking Rhinos or Razorbacks is making expensive units even more expensive. And Rhinos and Razorbacks stopped being a thing long ago. Only good vehicle is the Storm Raven.
Strike Squads are just overpriced for their effectiveness compared to Terminators as troops, and our Terminators are actually fairly costed given our lack of AP2. If you want a GKT with the same melee potential as a Tactical Terminator, you have to pay 10 points for a Hammer. Which is a fair thing, you pay 3 points more than a regular PF/SB terminator for Force Weapon and Hammer Hand, and you have the option to be cheaper.
Purifiers are the only PA unit that can be useful. They have enough attacks in melee to actually take advantage of their force weapons, they're ML2, and they have Cleansing Flame which is an amazing power at clearing light vehicles and infantry swarms. It can also kill flyers. Their only problem is they can't deep strike, so you're forced to ally in some Drop Pods for them.
Purgation Squads are just terrible, they always have been. They're Devastator squads who can't take any gear Devastators need, IE: range greater than 24. They're also competing with the Dreadknight for a HS slot.
Slayer222 wrote: They are mono build,
People mostly don't understand that you have mediocre(with a few good options)
or crap that is so bad it would be tough to beat kroot.
And our codex barely beats out the harlequin dex for units.
Sisters have less units than Grey Knights. Thats even counting Land Raiders as one unit and not 3 distinct ones or counting your dedicated transports. They also have no non apocalypse formations or even any special detachments. I'm just saying there are codexes worse off without trunign this into another Sisters martyr thread. I don't think Grey Knights is really intended to be a stand alone codex much like Sisters. They don't function like an army in the fluff for the most part.
maybe, thing is most GK players aren't complaining persay, but simply noting that you see a lotta dreadknights because the codex enchourages it. the Nemisis Strikeforce detachment enchourages a deep strike focused Alpha strike list. the Dreadknight is, notable as our only heavy support option capable of deepstriking.
1) The only special weapons PA units have access to are Incinerators, Psylincers, and Psycannons. Psycannons are only good on relentless platfroms because they're Salvo weaponry. Unless you stand still, you are effectively only range 12 and 2 shots. And even if you do stand still, you're still only range 24. Old psycannons still got 2 shots at max range if you moved, so you could still move and hit enemy units with some shots. Now PA units with psycannons are basically limited to either moving or shooting.
2) PA units are significantly more expensive than other PA units, yet have no increased durability and their offensive increase is limited to melee or very short range shooting. We also don't have access to Drop Pods to get our guys close.
Basically, we're overpaying for force weapons that are only useful in very rare cases(otherwise they're just power weapons) and we have limited number of attacks to benefit from those force weapons.
3) Our vehicle options are really bad compared to every other codex. Land Raiders are universally overpriced and taking Rhinos or Razorbacks is making expensive units even more expensive. And Rhinos and Razorbacks stopped being a thing long ago. Only good vehicle is the Storm Raven.
Strike Squads are just overpriced for their effectiveness compared to Terminators as troops, and our Terminators are actually fairly costed given our lack of AP2. If you want a GKT with the same melee potential as a Tactical Terminator, you have to pay 10 points for a Hammer. Which is a fair thing, you pay 3 points more than a regular PF/SB terminator for Force Weapon and Hammer Hand, and you have the option to be cheaper.
Purifiers are the only PA unit that can be useful. They have enough attacks in melee to actually take advantage of their force weapons, they're ML2, and they have Cleansing Flame which is an amazing power at clearing light vehicles and infantry swarms. It can also kill flyers. Their only problem is they can't deep strike, so you're forced to ally in some Drop Pods for them.
Purgation Squads are just terrible, they always have been. They're Devastator squads who can't take any gear Devastators need, IE: range greater than 24. They're also competing with the Dreadknight for a HS slot.
Pretty much sums it up there! Our HQ is pretty good though! even Grand Masters are pretty boss. Are lvl 2 Psykers and can take a psycannon with bs 5...no ability to get eternal warrior though...we just aren't cool enough to have the shield eternal.
1) The only special weapons PA units have access to are Incinerators, Psylincers, and Psycannons. Psycannons are only good on relentless platfroms because they're Salvo weaponry. Unless you stand still, you are effectively only range 12 and 2 shots. And even if you do stand still, you're still only range 24. Old psycannons still got 2 shots at max range if you moved, so you could still move and hit enemy units with some shots. Now PA units with psycannons are basically limited to either moving or shooting.
2) PA units are significantly more expensive than other PA units, yet have no increased durability and their offensive increase is limited to melee or very short range shooting. We also don't have access to Drop Pods to get our guys close.
Basically, we're overpaying for force weapons that are only useful in very rare cases(otherwise they're just power weapons) and we have limited number of attacks to benefit from those force weapons.
3) Our vehicle options are really bad compared to every other codex. Land Raiders are universally overpriced and taking Rhinos or Razorbacks is making expensive units even more expensive. And Rhinos and Razorbacks stopped being a thing long ago. Only good vehicle is the Storm Raven.
Strike Squads are just overpriced for their effectiveness compared to Terminators as troops, and our Terminators are actually fairly costed given our lack of AP2. If you want a GKT with the same melee potential as a Tactical Terminator, you have to pay 10 points for a Hammer. Which is a fair thing, you pay 3 points more than a regular PF/SB terminator for Force Weapon and Hammer Hand, and you have the option to be cheaper.
Purifiers are the only PA unit that can be useful. They have enough attacks in melee to actually take advantage of their force weapons, they're ML2, and they have Cleansing Flame which is an amazing power at clearing light vehicles and infantry swarms. It can also kill flyers. Their only problem is they can't deep strike, so you're forced to ally in some Drop Pods for them.
Purgation Squads are just terrible, they always have been. They're Devastator squads who can't take any gear Devastators need, IE: range greater than 24. They're also competing with the Dreadknight for a HS slot.
Pretty much sums it up there! Our HQ is pretty good though! even Grand Masters are pretty boss. Are lvl 2 Psykers and can take a psycannon with bs 5...no ability to get eternal warrior though...we just aren't cool enough to have the shield eternal.
That Dragio jerk's been hogging all the stormshields
1) The only special weapons PA units have access to are Incinerators, Psylincers, and Psycannons. Psycannons are only good on relentless platfroms because they're Salvo weaponry. Unless you stand still, you are effectively only range 12 and 2 shots. And even if you do stand still, you're still only range 24. Old psycannons still got 2 shots at max range if you moved, so you could still move and hit enemy units with some shots. Now PA units with psycannons are basically limited to either moving or shooting.
2) PA units are significantly more expensive than other PA units, yet have no increased durability and their offensive increase is limited to melee or very short range shooting. We also don't have access to Drop Pods to get our guys close.
Basically, we're overpaying for force weapons that are only useful in very rare cases(otherwise they're just power weapons) and we have limited number of attacks to benefit from those force weapons.
3) Our vehicle options are really bad compared to every other codex. Land Raiders are universally overpriced and taking Rhinos or Razorbacks is making expensive units even more expensive. And Rhinos and Razorbacks stopped being a thing long ago. Only good vehicle is the Storm Raven.
Strike Squads are just overpriced for their effectiveness compared to Terminators as troops, and our Terminators are actually fairly costed given our lack of AP2. If you want a GKT with the same melee potential as a Tactical Terminator, you have to pay 10 points for a Hammer. Which is a fair thing, you pay 3 points more than a regular PF/SB terminator for Force Weapon and Hammer Hand, and you have the option to be cheaper.
Purifiers are the only PA unit that can be useful. They have enough attacks in melee to actually take advantage of their force weapons, they're ML2, and they have Cleansing Flame which is an amazing power at clearing light vehicles and infantry swarms. It can also kill flyers. Their only problem is they can't deep strike, so you're forced to ally in some Drop Pods for them.
Purgation Squads are just terrible, they always have been. They're Devastator squads who can't take any gear Devastators need, IE: range greater than 24. They're also competing with the Dreadknight for a HS slot.
The only PA unit you didn't mention was the Interceptor, which I think is actually pretty useful. They add mobility to a Grey Knight list that is quite immobile after they have come in from DS. They also allow for a on-the-board Alpha Strike that doesn't risk a 200+ point Dreadknight. Could they be better? Sure. Should you take them over a Storm Raven? Depends on what you want that Fast Attack slot to do. I would say that a squad of Interceptors will generally improve any list you put them in.
I totally agree that the Puragation squad is pointless. It doesn't have the range to stay stationary like Devestators, but becomes basically useless if they move.
I think the Strike squad isn't that bad, but there is just a better Troop option for GK in the Terminator squad. If they had some gimmick like every other good GK unit, then they would probably be worth it.
strike squads are in fluff the unit the GKs send in first to secure the beach head etc. problem is that cause GKTs can also take teleport homers, why not just use GKTs in that role? if Strike Squads all had teleport homers as a unique peice of war gear they'd have a better place. barring that give strike squads Scout.
I wouldnt engage in conversation with Pozy, hes the type of person the OP was referring too, unsubstantiated hate.
The fluff may be a bit silly, but the reason you see the same units from the GK codex pop up is because the other units really arent worth taking in our 7th ed codex.
Loss of psybolt hurt our vehicles and even troops to some degree, salvo psycannons hurt power armor GKs. Terminators are still terminators. Dreadknights are one of the few units to get better.
BrianDavion wrote: strike squads are in fluff the unit the GKs send in first to secure the beach head etc. problem is that cause GKTs can also take teleport homers, why not just use GKTs in that role? if Strike Squads all had teleport homers as a unique peice of war gear they'd have a better place. barring that give strike squads Scout.
I've said before that giving Strikes the Scout USR would solve every supposed problem they currently have, while also letting them function in-game in a way that's very close to their background...
That pre-game move could be used to help set-up an instant spearhead for teleporting down Termies/whatever, or else they could come in from their opponent's rearward flank and set-up some solid firepower including those oft lamented Psycannons in some tricky areas.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I wouldnt engage in conversation with Pozy, hes the type of person the OP was referring too, unsubstantiated hate.
The fluff may be a bit silly, but the reason you see the same units from the GK codex pop up is because the other units really arent worth taking in our 7th ed codex.
Loss of psybolt hurt our vehicles and even troops to some degree, salvo psycannons hurt power armor GKs. Terminators are still terminators. Dreadknights are one of the few units to get better.
Psybolt under its last incarnation made absolutely 0 sense. If it were to stay/comeback, it should have some kind of added effect vs. Daemons & Psykers. (perhaps granting something like Shred or Rending vs. those specific targets?)
But +1S because... "mind bullets" was frankly utterly stupid. Ditto with Psyflame.
Arguably Salvo as a rule needs some work, but that said, PA Psycannons aren't quite as woefully useless as the vocal minority claim. Interceptors who can T1 shunt 30" to pretty much wherever the damn well please can get those bad boys easily staring down the rear and/or side armour of vehicles.
Strikes can still Deep Strike, (into terrain for added bonus), or else use cheap transports to get set-up and ready to lay down some hurt by T2/T3 at the latest.
The only time the codex really becomes nothing more than 'Codex: Dreadknights + allied friends' is if you're aiming purely for flat-out "Tournament" optimisation. And arguably, every single army in the game becomes similarly limited when playing such a game.
Salvo should be that you get the higher amount of shots if you didn't move, effectively a heavier version of Rapid Fire. The current incarnation of Salvo is useless.
changemod wrote: Oh, and it's also the only army to encourage a single one true paint job that's drab grey, so there's that too.
That's unfair. GK are super ornate models. If the people you play with choose to just paint then grey, they would probably paint ultramarines all blue or blood angels all red
I am relatively new to 40k. I have only played against GKs on a few occasions, and really, it wasn't cheese, just no variety, only a few viable units, if anything its the opposite. I think that when people see this they immediately think spam and cheese. I think thats where the hate is coming from
The irony is that GK players can take one each of three units ,and two DKs, and get accused of spamming. Because two of the same unit means spamming these days, I guess.
I have another thread where I proposed changes to round out the Grey Knight Codex (as a hypothetical to make all of the units equally viable, and assuming that other codexes recieve similar fixes), yet a couple individuals are stuck on the idea that if the unusable units were fixed that it would make the Codex over-powered.
As it stands, the Grey Knights lose as many games as they win, and only field a small portion of the units competitively. So as long as fixing the other units doesn't make them more powerful than the units currently being used, it would add diversity, but not overt power. The biggest advantage it would give would be one that most codexes already have, which is the opponent wouldn't know exactly what your bringing and what tactic you're going to try just by glimpsing the codex.
Draigo-star (usually with allies) is called too uber, yet other codexes have the same. Multiple Dreadknights is complained about, yet other armies have no qualms about spamming Drop Pods, or Fliers, or Daemonprinces or even spawning lists that spawn additional Daemons or Tyranids.
Some individuals just seem to have an irrational fear and hatred of the Grey Knights.
Bill1138 wrote: I have another thread where I proposed changes to round out the Grey Knight Codex (as a hypothetical to make all of the units equally viable, and assuming that other codexes recieve similar fixes), yet a couple individuals are stuck on the idea that if the unusable units were fixed that it would make the Codex over-powered.
Every unit in the codex is currently quite "usable."
Just because like every other codex, Grey Knights get whittled down to a handful of optimised units when going full-on 110% "Tournament" competitive is no reason to think you only ever have just 3-4 things to choose from.
Bill1138 wrote: As it stands, the Grey Knights lose as many games as they win, and only field a small portion of the units competitively. So as long as fixing the other units doesn't make them more powerful than the units currently being used, it would add diversity, but not overt power. The biggest advantage it would give would be one that most codexes already have, which is the opponent wouldn't know exactly what your bringing and what tactic you're going to try just by glimpsing the codex.
A 50/50 win/loss rate is actually the definition of "well balanced."
Again, stop looking at things from only a narrow definition of what's the "most competitive". All armies are equally limited under such a field. Codex Marines for example may as well just become 'Codex White Scars & Iron Hands + occasionally Tiggy.' However, if you brought everything else up to the level of Scars Grav Bikers & IH's Dev Cents, the Vanilla codex would be broken as hell!
Same deal for Grey Knights. If you bring for example Purgations up to the same level as Dreadknights, (with most suggestions being to give the guns +12" range AND guaranteed Perfect Timing), Purgation Squads are now god mode, able to pretty much point and delete most anything they want with better Psycannons and cover being completely pointless.
Bill1138 wrote: Draigo-star (usually with allies) is called too uber, yet other codexes have the same. Multiple Dreadknights is complained about, yet other armies have no qualms about spamming Drop Pods, or Fliers, or Daemonprinces or even spawning lists that spawn additional Daemons or Tyranids.
Please, there's just as many, and typically a lot more complaining about the likes of Wave Serpents, Grav Biker lists, 'uber Centstars, Wave Serpents, Riptides, 'Nids flying circus, Wave Serpents, Daemons in general... did I mention Wave Serpents?!
Bill1138 wrote: Some individuals just seem to have an irrational fear and hatred of the Grey Knights.
Right, because there's never, ever been community wide outrage & hatred directed at Daemon or Eldar players...
(like the mass cries & wails of despair that DoC would auto-win every game ever unless people agreed to ban the Grimoire, limit Summoning into non-existence and cap the army to 12 WC's - THAT kind of irrational fear & hatred?!!)
jeffersonian000 wrote: The irony is that GK players can take one each of three units ,and two DKs, and get accused of spamming. Because two of the same unit means spamming these days, I guess.
SJ
I think around the start of 7th spaming changed its meaning from army has 5+ of it, someone takes 1+ of a good unit. I seen people say that cent star are being spamed when unless someone is using IF as ally there is no way to get more then one unit.
All armies are equally limited under such a field
tell me which army plays with 4 models other then GK? even SW use more, just because they have access to pods.
I don't get why so much venom for GK. With all that 2+, Raiders would be better.
On a more serious note, its more:
1) Monobuild. With such a tiny codex, its hard to avoid. Relatively weak internal balance just further sucks the life out of it.
2) Dreadknight. Not alone in the too-good-at-everything department, not even the craziest offender, but still pretty dumb. Designed to make half your list almost irrelevant. And taken often, and in multiples.
3) WC Spam. Holy crap.
Not the most broken Dex, surely. But it does certain things rediculously.
Bill1138 wrote: I have another thread where I proposed changes to round out the Grey Knight Codex (as a hypothetical to make all of the units equally viable, and assuming that other codexes recieve similar fixes), yet a couple individuals are stuck on the idea that if the unusable units were fixed that it would make the Codex over-powered.
Every unit in the codex is currently quite "usable."
Just because like every other codex, Grey Knights get whittled down to a handful of optimised units when going full-on 110% "Tournament" competitive is no reason to think you only ever have just 3-4 things to choose from.
Virtually every other Codex can field multiple strategies, so their opponents can't list-build to counter them, just by knowing their Codex. That isn't the case for the Grey Knights. If we don't Deep Strike or Shunt tons of Interceptors and Dreadknights in to the same effect, we are sunk. It isn't hard for most armies to list-build to defend against that.
Virtually every unit being a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, does not work. Every unit is too similar and not powerful enough at anything, and the Grey Knights need some of their units to diversify and specialize so they can measure up to other codexes specialized units (shooty units out shoot us, fighty units outfight us, and where we pay more for a unit that can do a bit of both, other factions may have twice as many models, with back lines that obliterate at range, and a front line we can't match in close combat.
Bill1138 wrote: As it stands, the Grey Knights lose as many games as they win, and only field a small portion of the units competitively. So as long as fixing the other units doesn't make them more powerful than the units currently being used, it would add diversity, but not overt power. The biggest advantage it would give would be one that most codexes already have, which is the opponent wouldn't know exactly what your bringing and what tactic you're going to try just by glimpsing the codex.
A 50/50 win/loss rate is actually the definition of "well balanced."
Again, stop looking at things from only a narrow definition of what's the "most competitive". All armies are equally limited under such a field. Codex Marines for example may as well just become 'Codex White Scars & Iron Hands + occasionally Tiggy.' However, if you brought everything else up to the level of Scars Grav Bikers & IH's Dev Cents, the Vanilla codex would be broken as hell!
Same deal for Grey Knights. If you bring for example Purgations up to the same level as Dreadknights, (with most suggestions being to give the guns +12" range AND guaranteed Perfect Timing), Purgation Squads are now god mode, able to pretty much point and delete most anything they want with better Psycannons and cover being completely pointless.
The BEST units in our codes are balanced decently with other codexes. That doesn't mean our other units aren't crap. The Codex needs to be balanced internally as well as externally, Bringing up the weak units to match the strong ones rounds out the Codex, making all of the units equally viable. Other Codexes besides the Grey Knights would benefit from this as well.
Bill1138 wrote: Draigo-star (usually with allies) is called too uber, yet other codexes have the same. Multiple Dreadknights is complained about, yet other armies have no qualms about spamming Drop Pods, or Fliers, or Daemonprinces or even spawning lists that spawn additional Daemons or Tyranids.
Please, there's just as many, and typically a lot more complaining about the likes of Wave Serpents, Grav Biker lists, 'uber Centstars, Wave Serpents, Riptides, 'Nids flying circus, Wave Serpents, Daemons in general... did I mention Wave Serpents?!
If the Codexes were fixes and rounded out instead of deliberately leaving them broken, this wouldn't be a problem.
Bill1138 wrote: Some individuals just seem to have an irrational fear and hatred of the Grey Knights.
Right, because there's never, ever been community wide outrage & hatred directed at Daemon or Eldar players...
(like the mass cries & wails of despair that DoC would auto-win every game ever unless people agreed to ban the Grimoire, limit Summoning into non-existence and cap the army to 12 WC's - THAT kind of irrational fear & hatred?!!)
Sensationalizing much? Grey Knights break even at best, and any suggestion that would make the codex more fun to play, and to play against, gets shouted down by people like you. And I'm not saying this as a slur against you, you actually ended your post with double exclamation points. And I've seen more complaints about the Grey Knights being a mono-build from their opponents than I have from the players. It gets boring if you know your opponent is going to use the same tactic every time, and you can refine your defenses to completely shut him down.
It's one thing to hate an army if it's winning every game, but if they just manage to break even, then yes, I would call that irrational.
If there was any question, Experiment 626 is exactly the type of person I was referring to for the topic of this thread.
SGTPozy wrote: Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!
Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.
He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.
Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?
You're in the wrong because you singled him out and said that he "is exactly the type of person I was referring to for the topic of this thread."
You attacked him personally saying that he is the type of person that you are complaining about but you cannot say that as how do you know this? You've read two of his posts and because his view is different to yours then he is automatically this type of person?
How can he be in the wrong for having a different view? Sure, people might hate him for it (like many Grey Knight players do towards me) but it doesn't make him in the wrong.
Experiment 626 wrote: The only time the codex really becomes nothing more than 'Codex: Dreadknights + allied friends' is if you're aiming purely for flat-out "Tournament" optimisation. And arguably, every single army in the game becomes similarly limited when playing such a game.
So "the only time this is an issue is when you're not handicapping yourself on purpose"? Thanks for proving our point, I guess?
The fact that this is also the case with other Codices does not mean that it's not a problem. Two wrongs do not make a right.
luky7dayz wrote: Just wait until 8th edition drops and Eldar and Tau are nerfed to hell and the next group is all complaining. I hope Orks become the new OP next!
They've already been through one edition change that nerfed them, and they're still really good.
Martel732 wrote: Eldar needs a codex change, not an edition change.
Depends, if the edition change makes melee more powerful relative to shooting somehow, the Wave Serpent won't be as egregiously bonkers as it currently is.
Martel732 wrote: Eldar needs a codex change, not an edition change.
Depends, if the edition change makes melee more powerful relative to shooting somehow, the Wave Serpent won't be as egregiously bonkers as it currently is.
I'm assuming that never happens. They need to nerf melee some more so Xeno players can keep telling me how awesome grenades on marines are.
Martel732 wrote: Eldar needs a codex change, not an edition change.
Depends, if the edition change makes melee more powerful relative to shooting somehow, the Wave Serpent won't be as egregiously bonkers as it currently is.
I'm assuming that never happens. They need to nerf melee some more so Xeno players can keep telling me how awesome grenades on marines are.
It doesn't matter what xenos have when you're playing the best drop pod army (Blood Angels).
They still had Eldrad fortuning and guiding warwalkers stomping around in ruins. I saw that combo table many lists that were considered "superior" in 5th. Scatterlasers were still broken, and 4+++ rerollable was pretty apocalyptic in 5th. How naive we were.
SGTPozy wrote: Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!
Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.
He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.
Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?
The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!
For example, most people agree that Strikes need something to make them compete alongside Terminators in the Troops slot. The most popular "idea" is to give them the Infiltrate rule and call it done.
However, all you've done is to give Grey Knights the game's outright best Alpha Strike capabilities, which can be combined into a power gaming monster with the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment and cheap as chips Terminators. (alongside those additional shunting units to boot...)
Rather, if Infiltrate comes into play, then Termies need a slight pts increase to compensate (or else no T1 Deep Striking unless the GK player is going 2nd.) OR, instead of Infiltrate, suggest giving Strikes the Scout rule instead, which while still a solid ability, keeps the 100% risk-free DS'ing out of the opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1!
Another big gripe is Purgations. (and really, this is almost entirely due to the Dreadknight being so stupid-good now, and Purifyers still being such an outstanding min/maxing unit! )
Again, you don't "balance the codex" by leaving Dreadknights as they are, while giving Purgations buffs such as longer ranged guns + Perfect Timing + Missile launchers/Lascannons/whatever. All that's doing is now giving Grey Knights 2 ridiculously amazing units, which will simply result in everyone and their mother running 2 NSF detachments to go double DK's + 'Super Devies.'
Instead, up the cost slightly on the Dreadknight, and perhaps suggest a boost such as Prescience in place of Night Vision. (or even something such as giving the unit Monster Hunter or Pinning to their shooting attacks?!)
What you do not do however is suggest things like, "give the Dreadknight the option for a Storm Shield for +20pts" and expect people not to call you out on it! (seriously, give one of the game's already most economic MC's, who comes with Sanctuary as standard to boot, the ability to ensure himself a 2++ save - that's crazy talk!?!) That would be akin to me trying to suggest that in order to "improve" Bloodcrushers they should cost only 40pts/model and come with a 2+ save & Adamantium Will, while Fiends should drop to 25pts/model and gain +2A. Or else try to suggest giving Pallies Storm Shields when it's easy to near-guarantee Sanctuary by taking an already very efficient Lv3 Libby + The Good Book for 4 rolls on Santic... (and because you're an Imperial, it's also easy to ally in IG Priests who can allow for re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, which as we already know, has left every single DoC & Eldar player being labled as TFG...)
Balance is a two-way street. While the no-so-good stuff needs help, you also have to at least slightly dial back the already ridiculously good stuff. Otherwise you simply end up with 5th edition Grey Knights/7th edition Daemons of Chaos all over again... (and Daemon players are still trying to live THAT one down - nearly 7 years & counting! )
Experiment 626 wrote: The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!
Please express some understanding of the words "internal" and "external" in regards to balance. You haven't yet addressed this distinction.
Internal balance is NOT a matter of overall power. It is making the various units unique enough and applying sufficiently proper pricing on them that all units are equally viable WITHIN the codex. It doesn't matter if it is scaled up or down, so long as the final product is a set of equally viable units. This is the only sort of balance I have been trying to discuss, and I have made it painfully clear.
External balance is the balance between codexes, and so far this is the only sort of "balance" you have referred to. It's not a matter of holding a different opinion on the same topic so much as arguing on a different topic and calling it the same.
My position is that External balance cannot be satisfactorily achieved until each Codex has a proper Internal balance. My intended topic was to tackle only the Grey Knights Codex, because my base of knowledge includes primarily the Grey Knights and Astra Militarum, and I think AM is just fine at the moment. I leave it to the Xenos, or Chaos, or Vanilla Marine players to open their own threads as to how their Codexes' internal balance can be fixed.
Once all of the Codexes are internally balanced, they can then be compared to each other and their point costs scaled up or down in regards to their relative overall power in relation to other codexes.
SGTPozy wrote: Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!
Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.
He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.
Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?
The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!
For example, most people agree that Strikes need something to make them compete alongside Terminators in the Troops slot. The most popular "idea" is to give them the Infiltrate rule and call it done.
However, all you've done is to give Grey Knights the game's outright best Alpha Strike capabilities, which can be combined into a power gaming monster with the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment and cheap as chips Terminators. (alongside those additional shunting units to boot...)
Rather, if Infiltrate comes into play, then Termies need a slight pts increase to compensate (or else no T1 Deep Striking unless the GK player is going 2nd.) OR, instead of Infiltrate, suggest giving Strikes the Scout rule instead, which while still a solid ability, keeps the 100% risk-free DS'ing out of the opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1!
Another big gripe is Purgations. (and really, this is almost entirely due to the Dreadknight being so stupid-good now, and Purifyers still being such an outstanding min/maxing unit! )
Again, you don't "balance the codex" by leaving Dreadknights as they are, while giving Purgations buffs such as longer ranged guns + Perfect Timing + Missile launchers/Lascannons/whatever. All that's doing is now giving Grey Knights 2 ridiculously amazing units, which will simply result in everyone and their mother running 2 NSF detachments to go double DK's + 'Super Devies.'
Instead, up the cost slightly on the Dreadknight, and perhaps suggest a boost such as Prescience in place of Night Vision. (or even something such as giving the unit Monster Hunter or Pinning to their shooting attacks?!)
What you do not do however is suggest things like, "give the Dreadknight the option for a Storm Shield for +20pts" and expect people not to call you out on it! (seriously, give one of the game's already most economic MC's, who comes with Sanctuary as standard to boot, the ability to ensure himself a 2++ save - that's crazy talk!?!) That would be akin to me trying to suggest that in order to "improve" Bloodcrushers they should cost only 40pts/model and come with a 2+ save & Adamantium Will, while Fiends should drop to 25pts/model and gain +2A. Or else try to suggest giving Pallies Storm Shields when it's easy to near-guarantee Sanctuary by taking an already very efficient Lv3 Libby + The Good Book for 4 rolls on Santic... (and because you're an Imperial, it's also easy to ally in IG Priests who can allow for re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, which as we already know, has left every single DoC & Eldar player being labled as TFG...)
Balance is a two-way street. While the no-so-good stuff needs help, you also have to at least slightly dial back the already ridiculously good stuff. Otherwise you simply end up with 5th edition Grey Knights/7th edition Daemons of Chaos all over again... (and Daemon players are still trying to live THAT one down - nearly 7 years & counting! )
balance is a two way street but that doesn't mean things that are solid IMMEDIATLY need to be nerfed. case in point Purgation squads aren't "bad" because they compare poorly to the dreadknight. they're just bad, and don't fill any role. THAT'S the problem with both purgation squads and strike squads. they simply don't fill any noticable role.
I agree infiltrate for strikes would be OP. but Scout seems fair. it gives strike squads a distinct ROLE in the GK line of battle. (give them teleport homers, advance them ahead. it plays well with the NSF while also being fluffy strike squads are SUPPOSED to go in first and "spot" for the terminators)
Likewise purgation squads simply lack any real role. sure they can carry more special weapons, but GK special weapons being what they are, aren't really something you need to pack together. and replacing deep strike with nightfighting is just a joke. they need SOMETHING to make them worth taking. yet again it's not that the dreadknight is uber. it's just that there's no real useful role for them in the line of battle.
TLDR strike squads and purgation squads lack any synergy to make them desireable. they need to have something that'll make em useful. even if as a force multiplier.
SGTPozy wrote: Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!
Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.
He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.
Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?
The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!
For example, most people agree that Strikes need something to make them compete alongside Terminators in the Troops slot. The most popular "idea" is to give them the Infiltrate rule and call it done.
However, all you've done is to give Grey Knights the game's outright best Alpha Strike capabilities, which can be combined into a power gaming monster with the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment and cheap as chips Terminators. (alongside those additional shunting units to boot...)
Rather, if Infiltrate comes into play, then Termies need a slight pts increase to compensate (or else no T1 Deep Striking unless the GK player is going 2nd.) OR, instead of Infiltrate, suggest giving Strikes the Scout rule instead, which while still a solid ability, keeps the 100% risk-free DS'ing out of the opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1!
Another big gripe is Purgations. (and really, this is almost entirely due to the Dreadknight being so stupid-good now, and Purifyers still being such an outstanding min/maxing unit! )
Again, you don't "balance the codex" by leaving Dreadknights as they are, while giving Purgations buffs such as longer ranged guns + Perfect Timing + Missile launchers/Lascannons/whatever. All that's doing is now giving Grey Knights 2 ridiculously amazing units, which will simply result in everyone and their mother running 2 NSF detachments to go double DK's + 'Super Devies.'
Instead, up the cost slightly on the Dreadknight, and perhaps suggest a boost such as Prescience in place of Night Vision. (or even something such as giving the unit Monster Hunter or Pinning to their shooting attacks?!)
What you do not do however is suggest things like, "give the Dreadknight the option for a Storm Shield for +20pts" and expect people not to call you out on it! (seriously, give one of the game's already most economic MC's, who comes with Sanctuary as standard to boot, the ability to ensure himself a 2++ save - that's crazy talk!?!) That would be akin to me trying to suggest that in order to "improve" Bloodcrushers they should cost only 40pts/model and come with a 2+ save & Adamantium Will, while Fiends should drop to 25pts/model and gain +2A. Or else try to suggest giving Pallies Storm Shields when it's easy to near-guarantee Sanctuary by taking an already very efficient Lv3 Libby + The Good Book for 4 rolls on Santic... (and because you're an Imperial, it's also easy to ally in IG Priests who can allow for re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, which as we already know, has left every single DoC & Eldar player being labled as TFG...)
Balance is a two-way street. While the no-so-good stuff needs help, you also have to at least slightly dial back the already ridiculously good stuff. Otherwise you simply end up with 5th edition Grey Knights/7th edition Daemons of Chaos all over again... (and Daemon players are still trying to live THAT one down - nearly 7 years & counting! )
If you think Purgation squads are bad because they compete with the DK you sir, are suffering from insanity. Purges pay for power weapons and storm bolters... that are replaced with special weapons (ranging from 5-15 points) that alone we are looking at a 25 point model at least OR a 35 point one, horrible point distribution. Then factor in you could take a 10-man Purifier squad, combat squad them, and for a paltry 15 point, you get double the amount of attacks, ML2, Flame, Soulblaze. Purgation squads outright suck because they have heavy and salvo weapons on a overpriced unit.
BrianDavion wrote: I agree infiltrate for strikes would be OP. but Scout seems fair. it gives strike squads a distinct ROLE in the GK line of battle. (give them teleport homers, advance them ahead. it plays well with the NSF while also being fluffy strike squads are SUPPOSED to go in first and "spot" for the terminators)
Please explain this to me, as I don't see how Scout could allow Strike Squads with their teleport homer role any better than not having it.
pg171 "After both sides have deployed (including Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy. If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker, or Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6" of its current position... Durring this redeployment, Scouts can move outside the owning player's deployment zone, but must remain more than 12inches away from an enemy unit."
That is useless as it doesn't let the Terminators Deep Strike anywhere they couldn't have just walked to (skipping the risks of Deep Strike altogether).
pg171 "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contans at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy. When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player's own table edge; on a 3-4, they come in from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves."
This doesn't help with teleport homers either, as they can't outflank sooner than turn 2, which means they can't help reduce scatter until turn 3. The Grey Knights are sunk if you throw points into Strike Squads that don't come in until turn 2, and your Terminators are still off the table until turn 3.
Scout doesn't help Strike Squads fulfill their role any better than Night Vision helps the Purgation Squads, with Night Fighting being what it is. My intention was not to slap Infiltrate on the current Strike Squads. Strike Squads need to be re-worked to fill the same role as Space Marine Scouts, with whatever Special Rule changes or gear changes would come with that. (Note: they are still Grey Knights, so they shouldn't take a hit to stats, because they aren't the rookies, and their gear was hand-picked by the Emperor, so they'd still have base Storm Bolters rather than Bolters or Bolt pistols, which means they would cost more than base Space Marine Scouts).
Let's say you have 3 homers on the board. Sure, you could have walked on to one of them (not exactly true, should give you +radius even without scout), and protect your DSers from any Alpha). But now, you can chose any of three locations with no scatter, instead of being stuck with where you deployed. Based on everything that has happened, that choice could easily change.
And having that homer be a safe choice doesn't prevent you from not using it if you really want to deep strike behind their lines.
Ideally, you're paying for choice. Potentially overpaying, but it is a benefit.
Bharring wrote: Let's say you have 3 homers on the board. Sure, you could have walked on to one of them (not exactly true, should give you +radius even without scout), and protect your DSers from any Alpha). But now, you can chose any of three locations with no scatter, instead of being stuck with where you deployed. Based on everything that has happened, that choice could easily change.
And having that homer be a safe choice doesn't prevent you from not using it if you really want to deep strike behind their lines.
Ideally, you're paying for choice. Potentially overpaying, but it is a benefit.
But what good is not scattering when the Terminators could WALK to the location just as easily?
GK page 66, "At the onset of battle, a Grey Knight commander will invariably task one or more Strike Squads with the capture of vital locations and key objectives, deploying them via fixed teleporter to ensure a swift seizure of isolated or inaccessible locations."
The whole point of Strike Squads it to allow the Terminators to Deep Strike behind enemy lines reliably, in "inaccessible locations". Making Strike Squads a better trained/equipped version of the Space Marine Scouts with Infiltrate and Teleport Homers would allow them to do this. Scout does not.
Strike Squads need to be completely re-worked into a BS4 version of Space Marine Scouts, complete with Infiltrate.
I can see your point. I'm not refuting your need for it (don't know enough about GK, but would caution making it too easy to get super tough decently killy stuff anywhere they want to be!).
My point is that, (1) you couldn't necessarily walk there, as you have the distance of the Homer radius (also, what's the Rhino situation for them?), and (2), you could walk to any one, sure, but you'd have to pick that one at deployment, whereas with DS, you get to pick it when you come in. Or decide to not use it at all. Those options aren't allowed when walking to there.
(WS4 3+ guys, plus don't they have power weapons, are a very different animal from Scouts. Granted, there are other melee threat infiltrators, but unless I'm wrong about what Strike Squads are, they are very different from Scouts. So should cost a boatload more to get infiltrate + scout)
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I read that, they get into place traditionally, and place homers in places where GK Termies *might* be needed, but:
1) No real mention of 'Behind enemy lines'. If anything, it sounds like the homers are for mid-range and/or flank objectives that are too cluttered to be safe to teleport into.
2) It sounds like the Strike Squad locks down the objective, only diverting the Termies/Pallies/whatever to their location if they might fail. So, typically, DSing GKs deploy in the thick of it, only using the homers if the Strike Squad can't handle what they've encountered.
3) Precision deepstrikeing a DS-heavy army that wreaks most in CC so close that they can't run away should be absurdly costly, if possible. Doing it cheaply would be auto-win against many codexes
4) Strike Squads might be the first ones in, and might be a little better than most at getting into position, but they arent DSing in, if they are the ones making DS safe for that location. So you have a unit of giant Power-armored super-soldiers in super-shiny armor sneaking through enemy territory? How could they match, much less exceed, things like Dire Avengers, Kalabite Warriors, or Fire Warriors at this? So how are they infiltrating/scouting?
Bharring wrote: I can see your point. I'm not refuting your need for it (don't know enough about GK, but would caution making it too easy to get super tough decently killy stuff anywhere they want to be!).
My point is that, (1) you couldn't necessarily walk there, as you have the distance of the Homer radius (also, what's the Rhino situation for them?), and (2), you could walk to any one, sure, but you'd have to pick that one at deployment, whereas with DS, you get to pick it when you come in. Or decide to not use it at all. Those options aren't allowed when walking to there.
(WS4 3+ guys, plus don't they have power weapons, are a very different animal from Scouts. Granted, there are other melee threat infiltrators, but unless I'm wrong about what Strike Squads are, they are very different from Scouts. So should cost a boatload more to get infiltrate + scout)
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I read that, they get into place traditionally, and place homers in places where GK Termies *might* be needed, but:
1) No real mention of 'Behind enemy lines'. If anything, it sounds like the homers are for mid-range and/or flank objectives that are too cluttered to be safe to teleport into.
2) It sounds like the Strike Squad locks down the objective, only diverting the Termies/Pallies/whatever to their location if they might fail. So, typically, DSing GKs deploy in the thick of it, only using the homers if the Strike Squad can't handle what they've encountered.
3) Precision deepstrikeing a DS-heavy army that wreaks most in CC so close that they can't run away should be absurdly costly, if possible. Doing it cheaply would be auto-win against many codexes
4) Strike Squads might be the first ones in, and might be a little better than most at getting into position, but they arent DSing in, if they are the ones making DS safe for that location. So you have a unit of giant Power-armored super-soldiers in super-shiny armor sneaking through enemy territory? How could they match, much less exceed, things like Dire Avengers, Kalabite Warriors, or Fire Warriors at this? So how are they infiltrating/scouting?
Vanilla Marines get Drop Pods, we don't. The other Marines with their own Codexes (BA & SW) get Drop Pods, and we don't. Every other Marine faction can put homers behind enemy lines, and insert powerful Space Marines and Dreadnoughts behind enemy units safely and reliably, with their Drop Pods. They all also have Scouts, which, you guessed it, Grey Knights don't have.
The Grey Knights having their own Infiltrating unit is the next best thing to getting Drop Pods (and honestly, Grey Knights don't need new units so much as we need the ones we have to be worth taking).
Strike Squads having scout would only expand the no-scatter bubble by 6". At the end of turn 1, if they move 6" forward, that's 12" ahead of the Deployment Zone that Terminators can Deep Strike safely at the start of turn 2. If they had deployed and just walked forward they'd get that far on their turn 2 movement. Or if they ran they'd have the chance to get that far on turn 1. And putting the Strike Squad in a Dedicated Transport would just extend that another 6", which is still the middle of no-man's land. Either way, they'd have to foot-slog through enemy fire to get where they need to go. Deep Strike is the only high mobility available to most of the Grey Knights units, and it is only when they arrive.
"Inaccessible" means they can't get there. Strike Squads are supposed to open new locations to the rest of the Grey Knights that they can't simply walk to.
Better Gear = higher cost. That's why the Strike Squads are currently not viable, they have all of the nice gear, yet die just as easily as vanilla marines, before they have the chance to use most of it. I'd be fine with dropping the Force weapons from the Strike Squads if they could Infiltrate. there are a lot of changes I'd accept if they could just be changed to fill this role that they are supposedly designed for, yet utterly fail at. As for BS4, Space Wolf Scouts are their elite units rather than recruits, so they have BS4, so it's not unheard of. And the thinning process for recruits of the Grey Knights before they even begin training would kill most Space Marines, so there is no reason for any of their units to have less than BS4, regardless of their role.
Bharring wrote: Let's say you have 3 homers on the board. Sure, you could have walked on to one of them (not exactly true, should give you +radius even without scout), and protect your DSers from any Alpha). But now, you can chose any of three locations with no scatter, instead of being stuck with where you deployed. Based on everything that has happened, that choice could easily change.
And having that homer be a safe choice doesn't prevent you from not using it if you really want to deep strike behind their lines.
Ideally, you're paying for choice. Potentially overpaying, but it is a benefit.
But what good is not scattering when the Terminators could WALK to the location just as easily?
GK page 66, "At the onset of battle, a Grey Knight commander will invariably task one or more Strike Squads with the capture of vital locations and key objectives, deploying them via fixed teleporter to ensure a swift seizure of isolated or inaccessible locations."
The whole point of Strike Squads it to allow the Terminators to Deep Strike behind enemy lines reliably, in "inaccessible locations". Making Strike Squads a better trained/equipped version of the Space Marine Scouts with Infiltrate and Teleport Homers would allow them to do this. Scout does not.
Strike Squads need to be completely re-worked into a BS4 version of Space Marine Scouts, complete with Infiltrate.
1. You still get the fling your Termies roughly 13.5-15'ish inches forwards when aiming for a Turn 1 Deep Strike. That's still very powerful and allows you to get your heaviest troops into the thick of it and get the drop on opponents before they can react.
Also, keep in mind that with the Nemesis Strikeforce rules, you can actively Run and then shoot to full effect (or vice-versa). That can give you an additional 1-6" before you shoot, thus giving you ever more reach. (on a 'perfect' roll, your Termies are suddenly roughly 19" up the field - that's pretty damn good!)
Infiltrate on the other hand is utterly game breaking, especially when combo'ed with the NSF detachment. You'd get the ability to 100% risk-free pull off the game's ultimate Alpha Strike, even before your opponent can react.
Landing Termies + Interceptors + Dreadknights with 100% accuracy inside your opponent's deployment zone, possibly before they get a single turn is just too godly. It's moving into Turn 1 auto-win territory, similar to what Warp Quake did last edition.
2. Strike Squads are traditionally the Vanguard of the Grey Knights forces. They are not true infiltrators who operate behind enemy lines!! They're more akin to a flanking or forward operating force, not stealthy dudes who run amok within enemy territory.
Making them "Super Scouts" would make them utterly broken filth.
Rhinos give you a lot more than just +6" movement.
Grey Knights are not vanilla marines. They don't have scouts to infiltrate. They don't have pods raining from a battle barge above.
What they do have is much more TDA. And psykers. And power weapons.
'Inaccessible', I would think, would mean three things in this regard:
-Impassible/difficult terrain - Strike Squads can make their way through difficult, and the homer isn't blocked by Impassible
-Within-engagement-range - Strike Squads move in T1 to where the GKs couldn't stage before the battle
-Unsafe for DS - perhaps debris everywhere. Perhaps lots of enemies. At any rate, if its ~50+ chance of failure, it'd be seen as 'impossible to get to' for DSing. Homing beacons fix this.
Behind enemy lines might also be considered 'impossible', but (1) it would be called out specifically, and (2) its already not inaccessible, you just risk a bad scatter.
Deep strikers don't *require* precision. Just hedge your bets. If you want to start within 6" of the enemy, it should be a risk.
If you drop their Force weapons, they aren't GKs. If they keep them, they are going to be quite nasty. In addition to being psykers.
Being anywhere you want with almost anything you want t2 should be risky.
If you want SM scouts, field SM scouts. If you want Strike Squads, field Strike Squads. But you can't just give Strike Squads abilities that fit neither their fluff nor play style, then be surprised that not everybody likes it.
Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.
Bill1138 wrote: Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.
What are you referring to? The Grey Knights codex contains all of the GREY KNIGHTS units. The 5th Edition codex was an aberration of unrelated, and quite frankly game breaking (at that time), unit combinations.
Bill1138 wrote: Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.
What are you referring to? The Grey Knights codex contains all of the GREY KNIGHTS units. The 5th Edition codex was an aberration of unrelated, and quite frankly game breaking (at that time), unit combinations.
Every other Codes allows the player to build armies to achieve different strategies by choosing the different units without those choices being handicaps.
The Grey Knights are currently designed to be a Deep Strike, Alpha Strike List. Deep Strike is dangerous as the units can scatter up to 12", and just about any other army can fairly easily position their units to deny the Grey Knights the ability to Deep Strike in any sort of flanking position. An entire Codex built around Deep Strike without any reliable means of Deep Striking any more accurately than anything else in the entire game, is absurd. The only quasi-reliable way to use Teleport Homers is if you stick Strike Squads in a Nemesis Strike force and the successfully arrive on turn 1 and their Justicars survive until your turn 2, and you stick the rest of your Deep Striking units in a Combined Arms Detachment and they successfully arrive on turn 2, and this is supposing there's still enough open space between your Strike Squads and the enemy units for them to have a place to land.
If you took an exact copy of Space Marine Scouts, and plastered it over the Strike Squad profile, right down to the pt costs and options, it would be an improvement. Ideally the Strike Squads would have something that makes them more Grey Knight-y which would likely involve some sort of price increase.
Bill1138 wrote: Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.
What are you referring to? The Grey Knights codex contains all of the GREY KNIGHTS units. The 5th Edition codex was an aberration of unrelated, and quite frankly game breaking (at that time), unit combinations.
Every other Codes allows the player to build armies to achieve different strategies by choosing the different units without those choices being handicaps.
The Grey Knights are currently designed to be a Deep Strike, Alpha Strike List. Deep Strike is dangerous as the units can scatter up to 12", and just about any other army can fairly easily position their units to deny the Grey Knights the ability to Deep Strike in any sort of flanking position. An entire Codex built around Deep Strike without any reliable means of Deep Striking any more accurately than anything else in the entire game, is absurd. The only quasi-reliable way to use Teleport Homers is if you stick Strike Squads in a Nemesis Strike force and the successfully arrive on turn 1 and their Justicars survive until your turn 2, and you stick the rest of your Deep Striking units in a Combined Arms Detachment and they successfully arrive on turn 2, and this is supposing there's still enough open space between your Strike Squads and the enemy units for them to have a place to land.
If you took an exact copy of Space Marine Scouts, and plastered it over the Strike Squad profile, right down to the pt costs and options, it would be an improvement. Ideally the Strike Squads would have something that makes them more Grey Knight-y which would likely involve some sort of price increase.
So your complaint is that they can't deep strike more accurately than everything else in the game that deep strikes normally?
Deep Striking is a huge tactical advantage especially for a midrange shooting army. With those advantages come certain risks. Good players can mitigate those risks very easily by accounting for average scatter and placing DS'ing units accordingly.
I can also mitigate the effects of a deep strike, especially against a striking list with no ranged blast weapons. I can clump up huge parts of my list with impunity and present a tiny footprint. Then leave a picket force that absorbs flamer templates. My counter strike turn will be devastating to the GK.
Martel732 wrote: I can also mitigate the effects of a deep strike, especially against a striking list with no ranged blast weapons. I can clump up huge parts of my list with impunity and present a tiny footprint. Then leave a picket force that absorbs flamer templates. My counter strike turn will be devastating to the GK.
Nuggz, other factions have things like Infiltrate, and units like Drop Pods, which are far better options for getting units behind enemy lines, and some units in the game reduce their own scatter (I believe the BA have at least one at the moment). The Grey Knights don't.
The problem is that the Grey Knights DS better than absolutely no one, and there are other codexes that have better DS than average.
We have one tactic available to us and it is easily shut down. That's not tactics, that's our codex not measuring up.
Bill1138 wrote: Nuggz, other factions have things like Infiltrate, and units like Drop Pods, which are far better options for getting units behind enemy lines, and some units in the game reduce their own scatter (I believe the BA have at least one at the moment). The Grey Knights don't.
The problem is that the Grey Knights DS better than absolutely no one, and there are other codexes that have better DS than average.
We have one tactic available to us and it is easily shut down. That's not tactics, that's our codex not measuring up.
That and the only other people who DS without something easily available are sacrificial units, like CSM's termi-cide units, trying to DS a strong unit tends to get it killed from a variety of factors.
As someone that plays pure GK most of the time, giving Strikes Infiltrate and teleport homers is a terrible idea. As others have pointed out, it takes them to a level where you have no risk for very valuable units being dropped into your opponents face. If you are looking for balance (internally or externally) this is not where you find it.
Scout is an interesting idea, as it allows you to "redeploy" your army to where ever you need them to be to counter your opponents deployment, no mater what turn you get.
As another option, you could give them a rule that if placed in DS reserve, they automatically come in on turn 1. This follows the theme of them creating the beachhead for the rest of the army. I have also been toying around with the idea that they have some sort of reduced scatter when they come in on turn 1 (maybe only d6), but I haven't come to a amount that I really think is good but not busted yet. The reason I think that this could work are that Strike squads are limited in their special weapons (1 per 5 models), so actually make a lackluster alpha strike( unless you have a ten man squad, but then you are looking at a well over 200 point unit with only a 3+ save). However, the much lower price for Strike Squads over Terminators means that you could theoretically drop 3-4 units of them, each with a teleport homer, turn one so that on turn 2 all of your heavy hitters can come in close to your opponent with little danger. This fit the fluff and gives your opponent a chance to react to the first deployment, instead of just watching half of their army disappear turn one without being about to do anything about it.
Bill1138, I've read your other thread and, though I agree with you on a lot of the units that need help, I disagree entirely with how you want to fix them. If you give Purgation Squads Relentless (or something like it), then they can use all of our special weapons to full effect as a fire support unit. Being about to have 4 special weapons in a 5 man squad would actually make them better than Purifiers in this roll, as you don't have to pay for the extra 5 guys. Also, if you have a proper platform for it, the psilencer becomes a weapon that is useful for what it was designed for (throwing down a large rate of fire to crush hordes and T3/4/5 multi-wound models). You also get around the 24" range of our weapons by making them now mobile so they can support the army as it moves. That one changes makes Puragation squads something I would strongly consider taking. If Dreadnaughts got a Skyfire option, that would be good enough to make them usable. I won't go in to the other changes you suggest, but I generally disagree with them as well.
Trying to turn the Grey Knights in to a vanilla SM army is not a good idea. We are different and play different. Puragation squads aren't Devestators, nor should they be. Strike squads aren't Scouts, nor should they be. We have our own strengths, weaknesses, and play style. Trying to change that loses who we are. I don't want to end up just playing grey Space Marines, or go back to when the words "Grey Knight" were seen as a synonymous to TFG.
Bill1138 wrote: Nuggz, other factions have things like Infiltrate, and units like Drop Pods, which are far better options for getting units behind enemy lines, and some units in the game reduce their own scatter (I believe the BA have at least one at the moment). The Grey Knights don't.
The problem is that the Grey Knights DS better than absolutely no one, and there are other codexes that have better DS than average.
We have one tactic available to us and it is easily shut down. That's not tactics, that's our codex not measuring up.
GK have other advantages like Nemesis Strike Force, teleporting Dreadknights, Interceptors, etc. It's not just about DS, it's about getting in your opponent's face early in the game. GK have tools to do this - all I'm reading in these threads is, "But we want moooore!"
This reasoning is exactly why I don't think drop pods are all that, particularly for BA. Oh, look! Assault Orks! We can drop close and die, or drop further away, and die two turns later.
Shunting as the primary trick has the exact same problem.
Nuggs,
If an opponent can easily shut down Deep Strike, it doesn't matter if I'm doing it on turn 1 or turn 2. Grey Knights have flashy things that usually don't work as well as other players like to claim.
Freezerassassin,
If you've read my other thread as you claim, you should have encountered my counter-argument for slapping Scouts onto Strike Squads, yet you make the very same argument without addressing the issues I have with it.
And as I'm getting tired of saying, Deep Strike isn't "no risk" And Infiltrators typically have to deploy 18+" from enemy units. The arriving units are dropping into the lion's den, and if the opponent deployed properly, something should be able to shoot at and/or assault the arriving units. The reduced scatter just cuts the chance to kill themselves by teleporting into an enemy unit (The Grey Knight army is small enough as it is without us dying before reaching the battlefield).
Auto-turn 1 DS with reduced scatter was an early attempt I made for the Strike Squads, but people freaked out about that just as much as any other suggestion I've made.
Ideally Strike Squads would be unique. The idea of swapping them out for Scouts is making a point that the unit changes I was suggesting would not be overpowered, because it already exists in other Codexes. But you are objectively wrong when you say that Purgation Squads aren't the Grey Knights' Devestator Squads, as their datapage says that's what they are outright.
Your solutions don't fix the problems I was trying to address.
ZebioLizard2,
You are correct that other codexes have cheap units they can Deep Strike as "sacrificial units", while the Grey Knights don't have any units cheap enough to be able to afford to sacrifice in such a manner.
Personally, I have hated deep strike since 5th. By hated, I mean, hated using it for my own list. Not hated played against it. Although that's true in the case of SW, it's mostly not true for any other list.
Bill1138 wrote: Nuggs,
If an opponent can easily shut down Deep Strike, it doesn't matter if I'm doing it on turn 1 or turn 2. Grey Knights have flashy things that usually don't work as well as other players like to claim.
Freezerassassin,
If you've read my other thread as you claim, you should have encountered my counter-argument for slapping Scouts onto Strike Squads, yet you make the very same argument without addressing the issues I have with it.
And as I'm getting tired of saying, Deep Strike isn't "no risk" And Infiltrators typically have to deploy 18+" from enemy units. The arriving units are dropping into the lion's den, and if the opponent deployed properly, something should be able to shoot at and/or assault the arriving units. The reduced scatter just cuts the chance to kill themselves by teleporting into an enemy unit (The Grey Knight army is small enough as it is without us dying before reaching the battlefield).
Auto-turn 1 DS with reduced scatter was an early attempt I made for the Strike Squads, but people freaked out about that just as much as any other suggestion I've made.
Ideally Strike Squads would be unique. The idea of swapping them out for Scouts is making a point that the unit changes I was suggesting would not be overpowered, because it already exists in other Codexes. But you are objectively wrong when you say that Purgation Squads aren't the Grey Knights' Devestator Squads, as their datapage says that's what they are outright.
Your solutions don't fix the problems I was trying to address.
ZebioLizard2,
You are correct that other codexes have cheap units they can Deep Strike as "sacrificial units", while the Grey Knights don't have any units cheap enough to be able to afford to sacrifice in such a manner.
The data page for Purgation Squads say they look like Devestartors, but have a very different doctrine. That manifests now in shorter range weaponry, where we used to have unique psychic powers. If they became effective close-in fire support (which my suggestions would do), then I would use them and I think other people would too. you are entitled to your opinion however, so I'm sorry we disagree.
If I may redirect this thread away from proposed rules and back to the original topic, which I'm not certain was completely answered. Either that, or let this thread fade into obscurity.
Why do some people hate the Grey Knights so much?
As best as I can tell, some people just played against the Grey Knights at the end of 5th edition when the Grey Knights were actually overpowered, and they've carried that hatred through the rest of time for some reason. And the other people played against the Grey Knights before whatever faction they were playing got it's new beefed up Codex capable of easily matching the Grey Knights, yet they too retained a deep seated hatred for the Grey Knights that they'll take to their graves.
Some hate the Grey Knights players for fielding the same cookie-cutter army every other Grey Knight player fields, but don't acnowledge that even when the Grey Knight players only field the absolute best their Codex has to offer, they are only a match for other codexes with enough internal variety to field a plethora of different army builds. This reason doesn't seem any more justified than the other two.
Are harbored jealousy, and current boredom the only reasons Grey Knights players take so much grief?
anyway infiltrate is too powerful, but scout would certinly work. The thing is to add CHOICES, not "obvious must takes" (which is what infiltrate would be. it'd be a blatent no brainer. we want to open GKs up to a mix of tatical options. not further enchourage a single mono-build) Scout would give GKs a choice. "take a risk and drop right in my enemies face. or drop a little bit off but still be must closer to them"
Yet again the idea is to give options and variaty. Strike squads need something to make em useful... this doesn't mean they should be "auto-take" good
BrianDavion wrote: anyway infiltrate is too powerful, but scout would certinly work. The thing is to add CHOICES, not "obvious must takes" (which is what infiltrate would be. it'd be a blatent no brainer. we want to open GKs up to a mix of tatical options. not further enchourage a single mono-build) Scout would give GKs a choice. "take a risk and drop right in my enemies face. or drop a little bit off but still be must closer to them"
Yet again the idea is to give options and variaty. Strike squads need something to make em useful... this doesn't mean they should be "auto-take" good
Dude, I just posted a reminder that that wasn't the topic of this thread.
As best as I can tell, some people just played against the Grey Knights at the end of 5th edition when the Grey Knights were actually overpowered, and they've carried that hatred through the rest of time for some reason. And the other people played against the Grey Knights before whatever faction they were playing got it's new beefed up Codex capable of easily matching the Grey Knights, yet they too retained a deep seated hatred for the Grey Knights that they'll take to their graves.
Shockingly, people are quite loath to forgive overnight the fact that Grey Knights singlehandedly ruined the game for them... And yes, I get it - I play Daemons for feth's sake! We're still the ultimate group of automatic TFG's because of the whole, "well they're Daemons - they should be overpowered" bs Ward spouted.
And whether Grey Knight players care to admit or not, their 5th edition codex did outright destroy the game for a goodly number of players. Not the least of which, being Daemon, Tyranids, Blood Angels & Chaos Marine who pretty much got relegated to shelf decorations.
There was nothing more depressing and rage inducing than getting to sit around for an infuriating 20+ minutes, while your opponent painstakingly measures out their full 2" coherency across 30 dudes in order to ensure almost the entire table bar a tiny little corner is covered by Warp Quake... and then finished off by "juggling" your auto-misshaping units between Quake bubbles in order to either auto-wipe your entire army, or else keep units in perpetual Reserves. (and this wasn't even a tournament game!)
And the attitude in general when called out on this kind of flagrant nonsense? No cries of re-balancing obviously broken gak, no admitting that comp was needed to reign in the seriously stupid crap, just a derisive comment about "Xenos whining" and "durp, L2P noob!lolz." (or my personal favourite, "they're Grey Knights stupid - they should be auto curbstomp Daemons!lol"
Then suddenly Xenos in general finally start getting updated, (including some equally broken & un-fun stupidity), and suddenly, the cries of the game being beyond broken and armies like GK's are no longer playable/woefully underpowered, etc...
So yeah, a good number of Xenos players especially can't help but feel that Grey Knight players are chief among the pot calling the kettle black.
Bill1138 wrote: Some hate the Grey Knights players for fielding the same cookie-cutter army every other Grey Knight player fields, but don't acnowledge that even when the Grey Knight players only field the absolute best their Codex has to offer, they are only a match for other codexes with enough internal variety to field a plethora of different army builds. This reason doesn't seem any more justified than the other two.
Personally, I think every single army is equally guilty of this, or rather, that people have put far too much emphasis on purely winning games only as efficiently as possible.
If your main goal is to have some fun, throw some dice, and just play a silly game of toy soldiers, then suddenly all those supposedly "useless" units are nowhere near as lamentable as the all mighty Internets make them out to be.
For example, I have a blast playing either mono or mostly Tzeentch. I even use Flamers - in units of 9. (and yes, they even actively kill gak every single game, despite Internet "wisdom" claiming that they're unplayable piles of rank monkey poo.) I also won't ever pull the re-rolled 2++ shenanigans outside of a one-time joke, just so we could enjoy a laugh at how stupid it really is.
The point is, I take units to fit my theme, and I aim to take every unit in either their God's relevant Sacred Number, or a multiple of it because it's cool and fluffy. I don't care if a second Soul Grinder is a million times more points efficient than a Burning Chariot, because I'm no out to build an unbeatable 1,000,000/0/0 record to base my ego around.
Do I win games? Sometimes. Do I care if I get tabled? Only if the game wasn't fun in the least. At the end of the day, as long as lots of stuff died in suitably horrific ways and my opponent and I got to share some good laughs, then that's all that matters.
Bill1138 wrote: Are harbored jealousy, and current boredom the only reasons Grey Knights players take so much grief?
Uh, you think Grey Knights have it bad... try playing DoC in Fantasy. (you occasionally still have to duck a flying case or table!)
Freezerassasin wrote: Also, if you have a proper platform for it, the psilencer becomes a weapon that is useful for what it was designed for (throwing down a large rate of fire to crush hordes and T3/4/5 multi-wound models).
I just wanted to single this part out, because I've actually run the numbers for it, and came to the following conclusion:
There is only one thing that Psilencers can do better than Psycannons, from a practical standpoint; this one thing is killing T4- and only T4- multi-wound models, like Nobs or Tyranid Warriors.
Against literally every other target type the Psycannon ranges from nearly equal to flat-out better. I've done the math- the Psycannon is the equal (or better!) of the Psilencer against any other target type. T3 infantry standing in the open like a bunch of gormless idiots? Psycannons inflict more wounds than Psilencers, every time- oh, and Psycannons double out T3 infantry, so Psilencers with Force are actually worse against multi-wound T3 infantry (which exists.... where?). Against T4, the Psycannon generates more wounds against the likes of Ork Boyz or Tac Marines, while a Psilencer will be better for killing masses of Nobs and Tyranid Warriors- T4 is a sweet spot of sorts; you're not doubled out by S7, but it's not so high as to have low wounding rates from S4. Against T5, the Psycannon pulls ahead massively.
Against anything T6+ or with any kind of AV, the Psycannon is completely superior. It's the sad truth- if you want anti-horde, then you're going to either Incinerators, or Psycannons... but not Psilencers.
Experiment - you could not juggle between, as you were placed in a valid deepstrike formation; they themselves did not deepstrike. Sorry if your local meta didnt understand this distinction, but it was thrashed out at the time.
And whether Grey Knight players care to admit or not, their 5th edition codex did outright destroy the game for a goodly number of players. Not the least of which, being Daemon, Tyranids, Blood Angels & Chaos Marine who pretty much got relegated to shelf decorations.
What? This sounds more like Eldar then GK, considering Tyranids were awful in that edition to begin with (Want real cries of Cheese, 5th edition Tyranids vs Dark Eldar!) Blood angels was doing quite well for itself with razorbackspam alongside space wolves while Daemons weren't winning much anyways, let alone just against GK (it's what happens when your codex is forced to deepstrike and has a chance not to get it's primary wave!)
So yeah, a good number of Xenos players especially can't help but feel that Grey Knight players are chief among the pot calling the kettle black.
Or they aren't remembering well enough at all, 5th edition was the major Mech edition and if you couldn't output mech you were pretty much lost by the end of it, with the SM/SW/BA/GK devolving into razorback/double autocannon Dreadnoughts with killa kan Ork Armies alongside spammed Chimera's and the major problem was CSM and others couldn't really deal with it or had too expensive mech to deal with that.
When it comes to the 'proposed rules' thread, and the hate therein, that was less GK-specific, and more a kneejerk reaction to the proposals themselves.
When there were a few threads about Orkz, either using the old Mob Rule with the new Dex, or trying to avoid risking their Nobs in challenges, there was a lot of push back to them, too. And most players love Orkz.
I once suggested Bladestorm get removed or replaced with Shred, and everything went crazy. Or the Bolt weapons get shred thread. Or the Termies get Assault Cannons stock.
There is certainly some hatred towards GK. As discussed, its mostly around NDKs, monobuild (via crappy internal balance/thin 'dex), WC spam, and Mary Sue Better Than You fluff. But the reactions in the other thread was mostly about people looking at potential GK changes, and being unable to see it work.
We certainly have a problem with vitrol in the Proposed Rules section (more than other sections) (I know I'm one of the biggest offenders - I'm trying to be constructive). It would be nice if we had more reasonable conversations. But that is really hard.
Freezerassasin wrote: Also, if you have a proper platform for it, the psilencer becomes a weapon that is useful for what it was designed for (throwing down a large rate of fire to crush hordes and T3/4/5 multi-wound models).
I just wanted to single this part out, because I've actually run the numbers for it, and came to the following conclusion:
Spoiler:
There is only one thing that Psilencers can do better than Psycannons, from a practical standpoint; this one thing is killing T4- and only T4- multi-wound models, like Nobs or Tyranid Warriors.
Against literally every other target type the Psycannon ranges from nearly equal to flat-out better. I've done the math- the Psycannon is the equal (or better!) of the Psilencer against any other target type. T3 infantry standing in the open like a bunch of gormless idiots? Psycannons inflict more wounds than Psilencers, every time- oh, and Psycannons double out T3 infantry, so Psilencers with Force are actually worse against multi-wound T3 infantry (which exists.... where?). Against T4, the Psycannon generates more wounds against the likes of Ork Boyz or Tac Marines, while a Psilencer will be better for killing masses of Nobs and Tyranid Warriors- T4 is a sweet spot of sorts; you're not doubled out by S7, but it's not so high as to have low wounding rates from S4. Against T5, the Psycannon pulls ahead massively.
Against anything T6+ or with any kind of AV, the Psycannon is completely superior. It's the sad truth- if you want anti-horde, then you're going to either Incinerators, or Psycannons... but not Psilencers.
While your math is cool and all, no one takes a Psilencer instead of a Pscannon. On Nemesis DreadKnights, the Heavy Psycannon is a must. The question, however, is which to take as the second weapon, the Heavy Incinerator or the Heavy Psilencer. Anecdotal evidence is showing the on two different NDKs, both should have H Psycannons, yet one should have a H Incinerator and Great Sword, while the other has a H Psilencer and Daemonhammer. Please re-run your numbers for Heavy Incinerator versus Heavy Psilencer. Or better yet, run the numbers for a Psycan-Incin-Sword verse Psycan-Psi-Hammer, and tell us which is better verse infantry, MC, and/or vehicle.
jeffersonian000 wrote: While your math is cool and all, no one takes a Psilencer instead of a Pscannon. On Nemesis DreadKnights, the Heavy Psycannon is a must. The question, however, is which to take as the second weapon, the Heavy Incinerator or the Heavy Psilencer. Anecdotal evidence is showing the on two different NDKs, both should have H Psycannons, yet one should have a H Incinerator and Great Sword, while the other has a H Psilencer and Daemonhammer. Please re-run your numbers for Heavy Incinerator versus Heavy Psilencer. Or better yet, run the numbers for a Psycan-Incin-Sword verse Psycan-Psi-Hammer, and tell us which is better verse infantry, MC, and/or vehicle.
SJ
The problem with doing that is I never ran the numbers for the Dreadknight-specific variants. I was focusing exclusively on the infantry-portable variations, that you can stick into a Strike Squad or on some GKTs.
Incidentally, I was using the math to prove your opening statement- nobody takes Psilencers instead of Psycannons. The reason for this is because the Psilencer has only one target type that it kills better than Psycannons- T4/2W/4+ (or poorer save) models. T4/2W/3+ is probably manageable with a Psilencer, again due to Force, but anything 2+ or better, the Psycannon's Rending wins out.
Also, it's my initial opinion that the Heavy Incinerator is better against infantry, on account of AP4+Ignore Cover, while the Gatling Psilencer, realistically, is pretty bad against MCs. The Gatling Psilencer, against a T6 MC will average ~1.34 wounds before saves. Most T6 MCs have 3+ armor (or better... damn Riptides), so you end up with ~0.44 unsaved wounds versus T6/3+, and ~0.22 unsaved wounds versus T6/2+. In contrast, the Psycannon starts at ~2.64 wounds before saves, and before accounting for Rending. Assuming I've done the numbers right, Rending will add around 0.67 unsaved wounds, in addition to the ~0.87 unsaved from the Psycannon itself against T6/3+, with ~0.44 unsaved wounds versus T6/2+.
Heavy Psycannon T6/3+: ~0.87 unsaved wounds, + 0.67 unsaved from Rending, for a total of ~1.54 unsaved wounds
T6/2+: ~0.44 unsaved wounds, + 0.67 unsaved from Rending, for a total of ~1.11 unsaved wounds
So I must conclude that the Psycannon is more consistent and reliable against MCs. The Psilencer can- and presumably does- "win big" and manage to push even one unsaved wound with Force to gib a MC, but it's an unreliable effect. What really kills Psilencers against pretty much everything except T4 multi-wound is that they're S4. While there are some who believe that making Psilencers S5 and retaining Force would make T4 multi-wound models never be seen on the table, I would really contend that T4/multi-wound hasn't been popular on the table for several editions now; in 5th the plethora of S8+ weapons being thrown around- mostly meltas- meant that it wasn't cost-effective to field T4 multi-wound. 6th didn't really change that, while 7th has made T4 multi-wound slightly more attractive... if it's got a really good save, like MANz or Paladins do.
S5 Psilencers mean that they can gun down light T3 infantry with greater or equal effectiveness- against T3/6+, the S5 Psilencer exceeds the Psycannon, the two are equal against T3/5+, and the Psycannon very slightly pulls ahead against T3/4+ or T3/3+. The catch is that that's before factoring in cover, which then makes Psycannons markedly inferior at killing light infantry compared to an S5 Psilencer. A Gatling Psilencer at S5 also has greater potential for anti-MC duty, thanks to S5 wounding T6 on 5+, instead of S4 vs T6 on 6+; that's a really big difference.
In fact, an S5 Gatling Psilencer will average ~0.87 unsaved wounds against a T6/3+ MC- pretty much double the lethality of the S4 Gatling Psilencer.
I'm a proponent for S6 Psilencers, actually. With an AP-, S4 is just not not worth it for anything other than a Hail Mary failed save on something that should be ignoring S4 AP-. At S6, the AP is mostly irrelevant, due to wounding on 2's, allowing saves to count (reversing the low AP, high Str paradigm).
jeffersonian000 wrote: I'm a proponent for S6 Psilencers, actually. With an AP-, S4 is just not not worth it for anything other than a Hail Mary failed save on something that should be ignoring S4 AP-. At S6, the AP is mostly irrelevant, due to wounding on 2's, allowing saves to count (reversing the low AP, high Str paradigm).
You cannot say it is grey knights, or Eldar players fault for the venom, now a days it will be necrons.
The reason for the venom is that the power gamers buy the best most Op, spam it and ruin the "brand" for everyone else.
In the 6th edition book i've played striking scorpions with kroot support, got obliterated but had fun games.
But their will always be power gamers that jump on a codex and ruin it, while the fluff player or middle player will have to
take the punishment even if their list is subpar. (looking at Grey knights now they are mid level with their best units)
People still remember what they were and so will dislike it. Also their is only a handful of builds from thindex/overcosted,
meaning even in non competitive if you want to win 50% their are mandatory things you must bring.
To bring a purgation squad or strike squad is suicide, but you can get away with bringing a landraider.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I'm a proponent for S6 Psilencers, actually. With an AP-, S4 is just not not worth it for anything other than a Hail Mary failed save on something that should be ignoring S4 AP-. At S6, the AP is mostly irrelevant, due to wounding on 2's, allowing saves to count (reversing the low AP, high Str paradigm).
SJ
Are you serious?
I'm sure he is serious that he believes Psilencers should be S6, but I rather disagree. Incidentally, if you did make Psilencers S6, the chances of killing a Riptide using:
Psilencer
6 shots, 4 hits due to BS4, 2 wounds before saves, ~0.33 unsaved wounds vs a Riptide's 2+ armor. In other words, S6 Psilencers are still bad at killing Riptides.
Gatling Psilencer
12 shots, 8 hits due to BS4, 4 wounds before saves, ~0.67 unsaved wounds vs Riptide's 2+ armor. Not terrible, but a Psycannon- let alone a Heavy Psycannon- is still probably better.
Grey Templar wrote: It would make psilincers a viable alternative to psycannons and incinerators. They would need to have a point increase.
TBQH, I'm of the opinion that Psilencers need a buff- I favor just a flat increase to S5 and no other change profile-wise (pricing is can be determined via testing). Incinerators are perfectly fine as-is, IMO, while Psycannons actually need a nerf, and a new weapon designed around being anti-armor/-MC/-TEQ is necessary. I'd probably say that the following changes would be good:
Incinerator
As mentioned, I find this weapon to be in a good spot. Considering what it is- an S6 template that's widely available on infantry- and particularly Jump infantry- is pretty good. AP4 just sweetens the deal.
Psilencer
36" Salvo 4/6 S5 AP- Force
The range increase is purely to compensate for the terrible Salvo mechanics; this gives the weapon a half-range of 18", which isn't too much less than the "sweet spot" of most Grey Knight shooting, which tends to be 24".
Gatling Psilencer
24" Heavy 12 S5 AP- Force
This variant doesn't get the range buff, as said buff is purely to compensate for the crap Salvo mechanics. Moreover, the Salvo rule wouldn't make any difference- the Gatling Psilencer can only be deployed by Dreadknights... which are Monstrous Creatures... which are Relentless by default.
Psycannon
36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP4 Rending
While I am not a fan of Rending Psycannons at all, there's enough people who've lost their gak over stripping Psycannons of Rending (despite the fact that I offer a better solution to heavy armor and high-T MCs), that I thought I'd leave it for this iteration. However, once again, the range buff is purely to compensate for terrible Salvo mechanics, while the nerf to maximum RoF and Strength help keep it from being what is quite frankly an Assault Cannon +1 "because Grey Knights". Which always bugged the hell out of me- why is the Psycannon just a better AC? I mean, my proposed change is still pretty close... but it at least has the decency to be different- particularly in regards to how it functions on non-Relentless infantry models.
Heavy Psycannon
24" Heavy 6 S6 AP4 Rending
24" Heavy 1 S6 AP4 Rending, Large (5") Blast
The only changes here are the loss of a pip of Strength, and the wholesale change to Heavy rather then Salvo on the "rapid fire" mode, as it can only be field by the Dreadknight, so Salvo is actually redundant.
New Gun: the Psi-Melta
18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Force
Yeah, yeah, a "more better" melta. For the record, I envision this weapon costing between 15 and 20 points- which is around 50-100% more than a meltagun or multi-melta. This helps cover the cost of making it a sort of "long-barreled" meltagun, and adding Force. At 18", it's still difficult to get it into position without using DS or Jump Infantry- and while both options are available to the GKs, DS is far from the most reliable thing, and the Jump Infantry are relatively fragile for how expensive they are.
This is, incidentally, the "go-to" gun for countering MCs using a pure or GK-primary list. Trying to bring a few GKs along for the ride so as to leverage Psi-Meltas probably wouldn't work very well; GKs are already expensive and aren't really suited to being a sort of "torpedo/missile" or "meltacide" unit. CSM Termicide worked because it was about 100-110 points for 3 dudes with combi-meltas with DS deployment options. It wasn't an expensive option, and for the era in which it was predominant, it was also quite good at killing any kind of vehicle.
There's not really an option to do that with GKs, especially considering I'd start Psi-Meltas around 20 points, and then discount them if, and only if, it was necessary.
I'm not entirely sure why GKs need to get such weight of fire from Psycannons*- I mean, when it comes down to it, I think that Psycannons realistically need to pick two of the following- and no more:
1) Range
2) RoF 3) Strength 7
4) Rending
You can't have all of them- Psycannons are, quite frankly, just a better Assault Cannon right now. That shouldn't be the case.
Not only that, but the things which the Psycannon needs both S7, Rending andRoF against tend to be T6+ MCs or AV13+ heavy vehicles.
Introducing a "Psi-Melta"- as I proposed above- would provide an excellent option for the Psycannon to lose some of the ridiculous aspects it has- like S7 going to S6, or losing a shot when stationary, or losing Rending.
TBH what I really want to see is Psycannons going back to their Daemonhunter roots, where they're really not that special... until you notice that they ignore all Invulnerable saves.
But there's too many people that just lose their gak over that, that I've finally just given up on it.
EDIT: *By that I mean why Psycannons need to have such a high RoF when the job that they're currently called on to do- which is realistically everything, but in particular hunting AV13+ vehicles- would be filled by the edition of a GK-only variant of meltaguns.
Its because the psycannon has to do all the work all at the same time.
It needs to do anti-infantry, anti-horde, anti-elite infantry, anti-monstrous creature, and anti-tank.
If we had that psymelta that was put forth we could lose the strength on the psycannon as we would have some actual anti-tank, but it would still need to do everything else. So it would need to keep rof4, range 24, and rending.
Even with the psymelta, the psycannon wouldn't need a change. It wouldn't suddenly become op because there was an anti-tank option. And its not anywhere close to op now.
Well, if Psilencers are S5, and changed to Salvo 4/6 (and 36" range to compensate for stupid salvo mechanics), then anti-horde and anti-multi-wound infantry is covered by Psilencers.
With the Psi-Melta, anti-MC/-TEQ/-heavy armor is then covered, leaving the Psycannon as more of an anti-elite infantry and general purpose weapon.
So I understand your point, but the changes I proposed are really built on the premise that the inclusion of the "Psi-Melta" weapon to cover the bases of anti-MC and anti-vehicle is a done deal.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I'm a proponent for S6 Psilencers, actually. With an AP-, S4 is just not not worth it for anything other than a Hail Mary failed save on something that should be ignoring S4 AP-. At S6, the AP is mostly irrelevant, due to wounding on 2's, allowing saves to count (reversing the low AP, high Str paradigm).
SJ
Are you serious?
I'm sure he is serious that he believes Psilencers should be S6, but I rather disagree. Incidentally, if you did make Psilencers S6, the chances of killing a Riptide using:
Psilencer
6 shots, 4 hits due to BS4, 2 wounds before saves, ~0.33 unsaved wounds vs a Riptide's 2+ armor. In other words, S6 Psilencers are still bad at killing Riptides.
Gatling Psilencer
12 shots, 8 hits due to BS4, 4 wounds before saves, ~0.67 unsaved wounds vs Riptide's 2+ armor. Not terrible, but a Psycannon- let alone a Heavy Psycannon- is still probably better.
Not everything is about Riptides...
What about other mult-wound models like Crisis Suits, TWC, Spawn, all Tyranid MCs and Warriors, Shrikes etc?
Against 'Nids; wounding on 4s and if a single 3+ is failed the model dies...
The psilencer is just a badly designed weapon, it is literally all-or-nothing and isn't fun for either player.
"Oh look a lucky shot insta-gibbed your unit" "..." "Sorry about that, first time it has ever actually worked"
It fulfills absolutely no roles in the game, at this point the best thing that can happen to it is go die in a corner. Heavy 6 means you gotta be rooted (like hell I'm putting psilencers on my termies) and 24 inch range means you aren't hitting gak. Str 4 means it is a bolter and does nothing practically to high T monsters, the lack of an AP value means the lowliest of orks get saves. The only way I can see it ever becoming relevant is if GW decided instant death only is applied via force or specific weapon profiles, so we see more multi-wound models.
Here is an idea ignores Invuls, has rending, str4 AP- stays, feth the concept of a ranged force weapon.
36" range on both because Salvo sucks, and they need at least the 18 inches if they're moving, especially when you consider what they gave up for the weapons. and the stationary 36" is balanced by the rest of the unit not being able to fire if their Special Weapon uses its maximum range.
The Psilencer becomes Salvo 4/6 instead of Heavy 6, because Heavy weapons are next to useless unless they're in a static gunline, which 7th makes difficult to begin with, and the Grey Knights are less capable than most of establishing one.
Fleshbane on the Psilencer is a counter-balance to all units always being able to use their saves against it.
Armorbane gives the Psycannon a fair shot at taking down high AV like Soulgrinders.
This makes the Psilencer the weapon to have vs Monstrous Creatures, and the Psycannon the weapon to have against Vehicles, while both are comparably good at handling Infantry. Note that the Grey Knights will practically always be outnumbered.
What about other mult-wound models like Crisis Suits, TWC, Spawn, all Tyranid MCs and Warriors, Shrikes etc?
Against 'Nids; wounding on 4s and if a single 3+ is failed the model dies...
That is not balanced at all!
As you are widely recognized as a devoted Tau player- and in fact have commented about how the GKs have a gun that can "one-shot" Riptides, I figured that that was what you meant.
The biggest thing to remember is that you actually have to activate Force. Yes, I realize that there do exist some armies that either do not field psykers or do not have native access to psykers, and so popping Force is more likely to occur. Oh, and since Psilencers have no AP value whatsoever, you're still getting armor saves.
That's better than I can say for all those poor Marines facing down an IA 'Tide...
Quickjager wrote: The psilencer is just a badly designed weapon, it is literally all-or-nothing and isn't fun for either player.
"Oh look a lucky shot insta-gibbed your unit" "..." "Sorry about that, first time it has ever actually worked"
It fulfills absolutely no roles in the game, at this point the best thing that can happen to it is go die in a corner. Heavy 6 means you gotta be rooted (like hell I'm putting psilencers on my termies) and 24 inch range means you aren't hitting gak. Str 4 means it is a bolter and does nothing practically to high T monsters, the lack of an AP value means the lowliest of orks get saves. The only way I can see it ever becoming relevant is if GW decided instant death only is applied via force or specific weapon profiles, so we see more multi-wound models.
Here is an idea ignores Invuls, has rending, str4 AP- stays, feth the concept of a ranged force weapon.
I kind of like the idea that Psilencers ignore invulnerable saves, but I don't really see them making much sense to give Rending. The other problem with Psilencers is that they have only one target type- T4 multi-wound with 4+ or worse saves- that they do better against than Psycannons.
Bill1138 wrote: It would be pretty easy to fix the Psilencer into a good anti-wound-model weapon and the Psycannon into a good anti-vehicle weapon.
36" range on both because Salvo sucks, and they need at least the 18 inches if they're moving, especially when you consider what they gave up for the weapons. and the stationary 36" is balanced by the rest of the unit not being able to fire if their Special Weapon uses its maximum range.
The Psilencer becomes Salvo 4/6 instead of Heavy 6, because Heavy weapons are next to useless unless they're in a static gunline, which 7th makes difficult to begin with, and the Grey Knights are less capable than most of establishing one.
Fleshbane on the Psilencer is a counter-balance to all units always being able to use their saves against it.
Armorbane gives the Psycannon a fair shot at taking down high AV like Soulgrinders.
This makes the Psilencer the weapon to have vs Monstrous Creatures, and the Psycannon the weapon to have against Vehicles, while both are comparably good at handling Infantry. Note that the Grey Knights will practically always be outnumbered.
Oh God no, Psycannons shouldn't be Armorbane. Certainly not with Salvo 2/4- I can't even think of an Armorbane gun that has more than one shot.
Also, a note about Psilencers being good at handling infantry....
Spoiler:
Psilencer, T3 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 5.28 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~4.4 unsaved wounds 5+ Armor, we get ~3.5 unsaved wounds 4+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds 3+ Armor, we get ~1.7 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T3 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4 5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4 4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4 3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds; Rending adds ~0.88 wounds, assuming I've done my math right
Psilencer, T4 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~3.3 unsaved wounds 5+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds 4+ Armor, we get 2 unsaved wounds 3+ Armor, we get ~1.3 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T4 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4 5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4 4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4 3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds, due to Rending
As we see, the Psycannon- at worst- will equal a Psilencer in performance against T3/T4 infantry. In practice, the Psycannon will vastly outperform the Psilencer against everything except T4 multi-wound, low-save models, like Ork Nobs or Tyranid Warriors, and that is only the case if you can activate Force.
Again, the simpler solution to Psycannons being the "god gun" of the Grey Knights is to introduce a specialized anti-armor weapon- preferably a melta of some kind.
To plug my own opinion in shameless fashion- though amended because there are some people who just happen to lose their gak and get super-butthurt over some changes, here's a "compromise" of sorts:
Spoiler:
Psilencer 36" Salvo 4/6 S4 AP- Force 36" Salvo 4/6 S5 AP- Psi-Shock Psi-Shock: wounds caused by this weapon ignore invulnerable saves
Psycannon 36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP4 Rending
New Gun: Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force Note: Psi-Meltas would likely cost around 15 to 20 points.
This makes the Psycannon a versatile anti-light armor/elite infantry weapon, the Psilencer is either anti-infantry/-deathstar (S5, no invulns allowed), or anti-multi wound (S4, Force). The fancy new meltagun fulfills the anti-vehicle and anti-MC role, though it's geared more towards killing those particularly heavy/durable vehicles (and MCs), while Psycannons, with S6+Rending (though a lower RoF) would be good for de-meching an opponent and killing light vehicles that are really just glorified heavy weapon carriers.
Also worth noting that the "no invuln allowed" mode of the Psilencer is stillAP-, and does not have Force.
What about other mult-wound models like Crisis Suits, TWC, Spawn, all Tyranid MCs and Warriors, Shrikes etc?
Against 'Nids; wounding on 4s and if a single 3+ is failed the model dies...
That is not balanced at all!
As you are widely recognized as a devoted Tau player- and in fact have commented about how the GKs have a gun that can "one-shot" Riptides, I figured that that was what you meant.
The biggest thing to remember is that you actually have to activate Force. Yes, I realize that there do exist some armies that either do not field psykers or do not have native access to psykers, and so popping Force is more likely to occur. Oh, and since Psilencers have no AP value whatsoever, you're still getting armor saves.
That's better than I can say for all those poor Marines facing down an IA 'Tide...
Exactly, they CAN one-shot Riptides, just like a lucky smash attack COULD one-shot a Land Raider.
These things could happen, no matter how unlikely.
Activating force is no problem when you're playing Grey Knights and their warp charge shenanigans.
What is proposed is that the Psylincer becomes a TLDWBLW +1 since it has double the range AND force and only losing the TL... That is not okay!
If other armies can hug cover I'm pretty sure that Space Marine player can too.
SGTPozy wrote: Exactly, they CAN one-shot Riptides, just like a lucky smash attack COULD one-shot a Land Raider.
These things could happen, no matter how unlikely.
Let's actually consider the likelihood of a Psilencer one-shotting a Riptide:
Spoiler:
Psilencer 6 shots @ BS4 means 4 hits;
S4 vs Riptide's T6 means ~0.67 wounds inflicted
Riptide 2+ armor mitigates this to a paltry:
~0.11 unsaved wounds
Using a Gatling Psilencer:
Spoiler:
12 shots @ BS4 means 8 hits
S4 vs Riptide T6 is ~1.34 wounds inflicted
Riptide 2+ saves this to ~0.22 unsaved wounds
So tell me again how your Riptide is blapped by a gun with 24" range, that can only fire Snap Shots when used by non-Relentless, moving infantry (IE, PAGK), and that has no AP value to speak of? Especially when the Riptide has a 6+2D6" movement, and is most often fielded with the IA, a 60" range weapon!
SGTPozy wrote: Activating force is no problem when you're playing Grey Knights and their warp charge shenanigans.
At the same time, Grey Knights also have far more useful powers to be activating than "Force" so that they can have a miniscule chance to try and gib a T6 monster that's unlikely to even be damaged at all by the weapon in question.
SGTPozy wrote: What is proposed is that the Psylincer becomes a TLDWBLW +1 since it has double the range AND force and only losing the TL... That is not okay!
My recommendation is that Psilencers can choose one of two profiles- one is S4+Force, while the other is S5+no invulns allowed, and no Force. Oh, by the way, Psilencers have never been twin-linked. Range bonuses are not doubling- the weapon is currently 24", and the recommendation for the infantry-portable model is that it go to Salvo 4/6 36" instead of Heavy 6 24", as the latter is useful only on Relentless infantry (who should be carrying the far superior Psycannon) or in a gunline (which GKs suck at doing).
The only reason for the range buff is because of the gak mechanics of Salvo that cut range in half if you move an inch. If Salvo was changed to only use a reduced RoF when moving, then the Psilencer's 24" range wouldn't be a problem, and it would nicely sync with most other GK-specific shooting weapons.
I'll repeat myself (again), with the current iteration of my recommended Psilencer change:
Spoiler:
Psilencer 36" Salvo 4/6 S4 AP- Force
36" Salvo 4/6 S5 AP- Psi-Shock
Psi-Shock: wounds caused by this weapon ignore invulnerable saves
Which, as we can see- again- is a choice between S4+Force, or S5+denying invulns.
SGTPozy wrote: If other armies can hug cover I'm pretty sure that Space Marine player can too.
It's hard to hug cover against an enemy that can simply ignore it.
I'm not saying that the Psylincer will kill a Riptide, I was refering to how I had mentioned it in the past having a chance of doing so, even if it is extremely unlikely.
Why I meant was that the suggested S6 is way too much just to tackle one unit (just like you wouldn't give a Chimera a jink-ignoring auto-explode cannon just to tackle the Wave Serpent; however GW did create Grav Centurions...)
My comment on force was because you said that you needed to activate it, but if you wanted to activate it you could easily do so.
Your suggestion of either S4 w/ force or S5 w/ no invulnerables is perfectly fine (IMO) and the TL part was to do with the TLDWBLW comparison as they are only ever TL.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
True; however, I don't see much choice with the alternatives, when I envision such an ability being used to counter some of the 2++ re-rollable invuln shenanigans that are being thrown around. Short of removing the ability to pull that off (which IMO is a much better solution), I don't see much else that could be done that's as clean and simple as "no invulns".
To be fair, Psilencers are still AP-, so they always allow armor saves to be taken. Were the 2++ re-rollable BS not a problem (IE, didn't exist), then I would probably have just said "S5, or S4+Force". A -1 penalty to invulnerable saves (of all kinds, not just Psyker/Daemon specific) would be interesting... but I feel that that would be a better way to recapture the uniqueness of the Psycannon- that the Psycannon imposes a -1 penalty to invulnerable saves taken against it, while the Psilencer has Force and the Incinerator has Soul Blaze.
SGTPozy wrote: I'm not saying that the Psylincer will kill a Riptide, I was refering to how I had mentioned it in the past having a chance of doing so, even if it is extremely unlikely.
It's not so much "unlikely", or even "extremely unlikely", as "functionally impossible". Not only is the Psilencer going to have supreme difficulty in actually pushing even just one wound through a Riptide's T6/2+ armor, but the Psilencers have to actually get into range in the first place. Given that it's a 24" range weapon that, if the unit moves, must be Snap fired, and the supposed target is a Riptide that most likely has an Ion Accelerator (a 60" range weapon), then I find it hard to believe the Psilencer will actually get the chance to even fire at the Riptide, let alone to any useful effect.
There's also the issue that Psilencers are currently so terrible that they're functionally useless. On GKTs, you never take Psilencers- always Psycannons. The substantial increase in versatility and firepower simply outweighs any ability to gib T4 multi-wound with wild abandon- and even then it's not that great. On PAGKs, the only viable option (due to lawlSalvo rules) is really the Incinerator. It's hard to say "Psilencers can gib Riptides!" when the possibility is so remote (between hits necessary, to-wound rolls, activating Force, and getting past armor saves), and even worse, the Psilencer is so terrible that it's never actually taken.
SGTPozy wrote: Why I meant was that the suggested S6 is way too much just to tackle one unit (just like you wouldn't give a Chimera a jink-ignoring auto-explode cannon just to tackle the Wave Serpent; however GW did create Grav Centurions...)
Out of curiosity, I ran the numbers for an S6 Psilencer and S6 Gatling Psilencer versus a Riptide. Here's the results:
Spoiler:
S6 Psilencer 6 shots @ BS4 for 4 hits; S6 vs T6 is 2 wounds
2 wounds vs 2+ armor is ~0.33 unsaved wounds
S6 Gatling Psilencer 12 shots @ BS4 for 8 hits; S6 vs T6 is 4 wounds
4 wounds vs 2+ armor is ~0.67 unsaved wounds
Which is, I'm sure you'd agree, incredibly unimpressive- the amount of shots that must be fired to gib a Riptide is incredibly high, even with Strength 6.
It's also worth noting that Necron Warrior blobs spamming Gauss came long before the GravCent did, and realistically does the same job better when considering anti-vehicle usage. Nobody seems to complain about that aspect of 'Crons... or really that aspect of GravCents TBH.
SGTPozy wrote: My comment on force was because you said that you needed to activate it, but if you wanted to activate it you could easily do so.
And I pointed out that GKs have a notable number of far more useful/game-changing powers to spend Warp Charge on than activating Force just so some Psilencers can instagib something.
SGTPozy wrote: Your suggestion of either S4 w/ force or S5 w/ no invulnerables is perfectly fine (IMO) and the TL part was to do with the TLDWBLW comparison as they are only ever TL.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Not at all. There's many units with better invul than armour, or even only invul. Hesperax and her wyches, harlequins, Crusaders, PFG, any daemon, and so on and so forth.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Not at all. There's many units with better invul than armour, or even only invul. Hesperax and her wyches, harlequins, Crusaders, PFG, any daemon, and so on and so forth.
Those units already die to bolter fire. I don't need to ignore invuln saves to kill them.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Not at all. There's many units with better invul than armour, or even only invul. Hesperax and her wyches, harlequins, Crusaders, PFG, any daemon, and so on and so forth.
Those units already die to bolter fire. I don't need to ignore invuln saves to kill them.
sure but it'd be basicly a hard counter to some very specific builds. mostly by deamons.
not nesscarily a bad thing. if deamons have an ability that's a little too awesome, giving GKs a specific hard counter is an intreasting way to address it. GKs shou;dn't be a hard counter to deamons of any type. but allowing em to counter a few of their more rediculas tricks might be fair.
Psilencers should be Poison 4+, AP -, Heavy 6, Force, while the Heavy version is Poison 4+, AP -, Heavy 12, Force, because why not? It's a flashlight that rips the souls out of living things, making vehicles immune, and armor relevant (although S6 would be more balanced than Poison, IMO).
There's still the issue that a 24" range weapon with the Heavy type on infantry that's heavily incentivized to move around (IE, PAGKs) is a terrible combination.
It still relegates the infantry version to a halfway useless gunline weapon.
The real issue with Psilencers, IMO, actually comes from the fact that they can't fire on the move with any useful effect, since they're forced to snapfire.
It's honestly the same problem that the Heavy Bolter has- it's just that HBs are also overcosted, while Psilencers are overly short ranged for their current weapon type.
Reminder, I have another thread where this conversation was supposed to be.
Spoiler:
Bill1138 wrote: To get this train back on track, my most recent suggestion involves fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon to bring the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase.
Psilencer: 36", S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force
Psycannon: 36", S7, AP-, Salvo 2/4, Armorbane
Both are good against infantry, but the Psilencer is also good against Monstrous Creatures, while the Psycannon is good against vehicles, and neither is particularly good against the other's specialty.
Salvo for the Psilencer is because the current Heavy 6 is worthless.
36" range on both makes their half range a usable 18", while the maximum range sacrifices the rest of the unit's shooting as they have only a 24" range.
Fleshbane on the Psilencer is because all enemy units get their saves against it, so it needs most of its shots to wound to have more than a laughable chance of any of them being unsaved.
Armorbane on the S7, AP4 Psycannon gives the Psycannon a fair chance at damaging AV13 like Soulgrinders. And being AP4 without Rending means it can't cause explosions, so the 2 or 4 shots are justified.
This suggestion brings the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase, which is so heavily emphasized in 7th Edition. If you crunch the numbers, this makes the Psilencer and Psycannon pretty much on par with what other codexes have access to in terms of their potential to remove models from the table.
Also, it makes both weapons unique, the Psycannon having a distinct profile, rather than being a "better Assault Cannon", and my suggestion doesn't require adding another gun that's just a "better Meltagun". This means my suggestion doesn't require any new models, and makes the current ones viable, which I believe makes it the best option for a rules change.
Now to get this thread back on track (supposing people don't choose to let it fade into the background)...
Some people hold a grudge against the Grey Knights because of how powerful they were at the end of 5th Edition. This does not seem rational to me. Each Codex has been good, and has been bad, and right now, the Grey Knights are closer to bad than they are to good. If you ask a person what the best thing about the Grey Knights is, they'll likely tell you about some way of abusing the allies system. The Grey Knights are not over-powered if the best thing about them is what they give to another Codex. The broken combos people can make just mean the allies system is too open-ended.
Some people hate the Grey Knights for being to much of a Mary Sue. This does not seem rational to me either, as they are a military extention of the Emperor. The Emperor is about as much of a Mary Sue as you can make, yet only Chaos players seem to freely offer snarky comments about him. The Emperor is the Grey Knights' Primarch, and thus they share many of his traits. And while I'm on the topic of Mary Sues, Chaos is by definition the most powerful force in 40k, in that it doesn't matter how powerful or pure the Grey Knights or the Emperor is, because the Chaos gods will win in the end because they draw power from practically everything, including their enemies' hatred of them.
Some people hate the Grey Knights for "only spamming the same list of their best units". If one pays attention to the Grey Knight Codex, there aren't many good units in there, so there's going to be multiples in lists. Taking 2 of something does not constitute "spamming". And even when Grey Knights players do spam only the best models, they still lose half of their games, which means their ultimate cheese lists are only on-par with the regular lists other codexes can make. So this line of thought doesn't seem rational to me either.
It seems the Grey Knights are just simply the whipping-boy for the rest of the fandom.
Maybe its just because they trashed me last night, but I don't think GK are that low on the totem pole.
Moving a Rhino 12" then Cleansing Flaming? 9" bubble assault 2d6 -on each unit- ignores cover/los/combat status/etc? Took out 500 points of Harlequins on the bottom of 1! Can't handle at range. Can't get close. Oww.
And Interceptors with double S6 flamers? Some armies fry reap easy that way.
Not saying they are OP, but they aren't weak.
(Also, Fleshbane Force with high ROF? Even at AP-, you still drop a Wraithlord in single round on average dice. Are you sure that's right?)
Bharring wrote: Maybe its just because they trashed me last night, but I don't think GK are that low on the totem pole.
Moving a Rhino 12" then Cleansing Flaming? 9" bubble assault 2d6 -on each unit- ignores cover/los/combat status/etc? Took out 500 points of Harlequins on the bottom of 1! Can't handle at range. Can't get close. Oww.
And Interceptors with double S6 flamers? Some armies fry reap easy that way.
Not saying they are OP, but they aren't weak.
How can you not handle Grey Knights at range? They only have up to 24" on virtually everything. And aren't the Eldar a shooty army? They're less good at close combat because they have so much shooting potential. Am I right, or did I completely miss something?
And the Cleansing Flames taking out your Harlequins on the bottom of turn 1 means you moved up to them instead of staying back and shooting what you could to wreck the Rhino for an easy First Blood (or simply to deny the Purifiers that mobility), allowing them to do that, so that success was just tactics, not so much the overt power of the Cleansing flame.
and 2 Incinerators on an Interceptor Squad means he's fielding a 10 man squad of Interceptors, That's a pretty expensive unit, so its effectiveness is payed for.
(Also, Fleshbane Force with high ROF? Even at AP-, you still drop a Wraithlord in single round on average dice. Are you sure that's right?)
That's not the topic of this thread, and that suggestion was already scrapped for a new one. If you want to discuss that, it is on the "Proposed Rules" page under the title "Rounding out the Grey Knights Codex:".
Bharring wrote: Maybe its just because they trashed me last night, but I don't think GK are that low on the totem pole.
Moving a Rhino 12" then Cleansing Flaming? 9" bubble assault 2d6 -on each unit- ignores cover/los/combat status/etc? Took out 500 points of Harlequins on the bottom of 1! Can't handle at range. Can't get close. Oww.
And Interceptors with double S6 flamers? Some armies fry reap easy that way.
Not saying they are OP, but they aren't weak.
(Also, Fleshbane Force with high ROF? Even at AP-, you still drop a Wraithlord in single round on average dice. Are you sure that's right?)
Yeah - cleansing flame is one of our best tricks. Rhinos however are garbage and purfiers are just 24 point 1 W 3+ saves. The only time Cleansing flame really works is when you can get purfiers in drop pods through ally shenanigans or when you get it on your libby and go ham with GOI.
You know what other army has nothing longer than 24"?
Harlequins.
VoidWeavers and Skyweavers have some quite mild 24" antitank capabilities. Death Jesters, Shadow Seers, and Sky/Star/Void weavers have a little dakka at 24". But not much.
Most Harlequin shooting is capped at 12". Our only antitank infantry weapon is capped at 6".
GK get stormbolters at 24"
GK will routinely destroy harlequins if they try to stay at range.
How are Harlies going to hurt GK at range?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Our only antitank pistol infantry is 30point t3 5++...)
Shooting his Rhino with all my dakka that can hurt it outside 6"?
At 1000 points:
One S7 shot
2 Haywire blasts
A couple non-twinlinked ShuriCannons
Odds are, even if everything can get a clean shot with nothing intervening, its probably surviving. And now I've spent a full turn of dakka doing nothing, and leaving most of my army exposed.
I'm not saying there aren't things I can do. I'm just saying GK aren't bad right now.
Bharring wrote: Shooting his Rhino with all my dakka that can hurt it outside 6"?
At 1000 points:
One S7 shot
2 Haywire blasts
A couple non-twinlinked ShuriCannons
Odds are, even if everything can get a clean shot with nothing intervening, its probably surviving. And now I've spent a full turn of dakka doing nothing, and leaving most of my army exposed.
I'm not saying there aren't things I can do. I'm just saying GK aren't bad right now.
OK, so you're playing the Harlequin Codex and not the Harlequins from the Eldar Codex. I looked through the Harlequin codex, and unless I'm missing something, it looks like it is just objectively the weakest Codex in the game. It's more "meh" at everything than even the Grey Knights are, and the Grey Knights are pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none.
Bharring that is a such a flimsy argument it doesn't warrant nothing but a cursory reply.
You knew what you were getting into with Harlies, you knew they were a complimentary force to your other Eldar forces. Grey knights on the otherhand have history of being "standalone". The current dex has kneecapped certain options, rendering certain units useless, in a already small dex.
I'm *not* saying GK is OP. I'm saying they aren't bottom-of-the-stack either.
Not everything that isn't OP is trash.
Harlequins are quite 'meh', not really holding their own. But they aren't the only "army" feeling some pain from GK. I was just showcasing that they do have some nice options.
The claim that:
A) GK need a buff. Don't tell me to play something else, and
B) Anything weaker than GK? Go play a "real" 'Dex!
Rings a bit hollow.
GK definitely have too few options these days, and even among them, many are simply inferior. And there are armies that are basically better. But they do have some strong options, compared to most Dexes.
BrianDavion,
The point behind that comment was in response to the claim that, obviously GK wreaked if I got close, I should just destroy them at range. Because, apparently, Harlequins do that. Mostly, a misunderstanding (OP thought I was fielding CW Eldar).
Bharring, you're saying the Grey Knights aren't the bottom of the barrel by comparing them to the floor. Harlequins are an ally to Eldar, and were never intended to be a stand-alone army. The Grey Knights on the other hand have always been a stand-alone army. Compared to the other stand-alone Codexes, the Grey Knights are towards the bottom.
The claim that:
A) GK need a buff. Don't tell me to play something else, and
B) Anything weaker than GK? Go play a "real" 'Dex!
Rings a bit hollow.
A) The Grey Knights need balance, not a couple units being "must takes" and several others being handycaps on any army they're a part of. Fixing the weak and over-priced units isn't about buffing the Codex in relation to other Codexes, it's about re-introducing diversity to make it more fun to play, and to play against.
B) Other Codexes need fixes too. The problem of poor internal balance isn't just for the Grey Knights. But Harlequins have never been a stand-alone Codex any more than Inquisition, or Assassins (both of which I might point out were torn out of the Grey Knight Codex to make allied forces). If you're fielding an army that was created to be an ally, then you're going to be outmatched by any full stand-alone Codex. You knew what you were getting into, and a stand-alone 'dex being more powerful than an allied 'dex does not mean it's up to snuff when compared to the rest of the game.
I can beat GK with BA pretty consistently. That's not a ringing endorsement for the efficacy of GK, because I think the BA basically stink in the final analysis. BA also have bad firepower outside 24".
I used my most recent game with them to show that they do have things that can do things. Harlequins have less of a Dex than GK, definitely. And probably should be that way. It was an anecdote, not a body of data.
But how do GK stand up to Orkz? Dark Eldar? CSM? Dark Angels? Serpent Spam and Grav and Riptides aren't the only books around.
We got off topic where we started talking about my Harlequins needing to hang back and outshoot them. Got my back up a little, and wasted a lot of peoples' time.
Bharring wrote: I used my most recent game with them to show that they do have things that can do things. Harlequins have less of a Dex than GK, definitely. And probably should be that way. It was an anecdote, not a body of data.
But how do GK stand up to Orkz? Dark Eldar? CSM? Dark Angels? Serpent Spam and Grav and Riptides aren't the only books around.
We got off topic where we started talking about my Harlequins needing to hang back and outshoot them. Got my back up a little, and wasted a lot of peoples' time.
In my meta, my Orks have consistently beat GK largely because we act as a pretty heavy counter for their super-elite army status. Green Tide has too many bodies and hidden klaws for even multiple dreadknights to handle, and they can shunt all they want but they can't stop my horde from controlling at least half the board and its objectives. Even against Battlewagon Rush lists, GK are limited given their lack of melta weaponry and reliable anti-tank outside of CC, so I normally am able to pair up my battlewagon units to combo-charge Dreadknights and wipe them out. Their terminators pose an even smaller threat given the amount of dakka we have to torrent them down.
Martel732 wrote: " Serpent Spam and Grav and Riptides aren't the only books around. "
Might as well be from a quality perspective.
Because Daemons and Newcrons suck soo much, right?
Don't know about Daemons, but pretty sure the Newcrons spank GK as well. The point is that when talking about how good a codex is, the top lists are the bar, not the bottom lists.
Bharring wrote: I used my most recent game with them to show that they do have things that can do things. Harlequins have less of a Dex than GK, definitely. And probably should be that way. It was an anecdote, not a body of data.
But how do GK stand up to Orkz? Dark Eldar? CSM? Dark Angels? Serpent Spam and Grav and Riptides aren't the only books around.
We got off topic where we started talking about my Harlequins needing to hang back and outshoot them. Got my back up a little, and wasted a lot of peoples' time.
Grey Knights typically field the same monobuild of the best units in the Codex, using the one strategy allowed us (alpha strike), to achieve roughly a 50% success rate, whereas other Codexes can tailor their armies for a variety of strategies, and achieve the same success rate.
Why is it surprising? 24" shooting range sucks. Low model count sucks. The result of this is a high degree of sucking. I can't imagine taking on a grav star with GK.
Martel732 wrote: Why is it surprising? 24" shooting range sucks. Low model count sucks. The result of this is a high degree of sucking. I can't imagine taking on a grav star with GK.
It basically boils down to me praying I rolled Forewarning and Sanctuary on my two Librarians and my Grandmaster in some combination.
I suppose it depends on what you consider "normal". A lot of GK stuff looks like it would do well against a demi-company, but nothing reasonable stands up to the top stuff right now.
Bharring wrote: I suppose it depends on what you consider "normal". A lot of GK stuff looks like it would do well against a demi-company, but nothing reasonable stands up to the top stuff right now.
GK struggle against the mobile grav and plasma of BA. I can block their alpha strike with cheap rhino hulls and preds if necessary, protecting all my stuff that is real points. After the shunt, the turkey shoot begins. The init 5 assaults don't help either. None of this helps me against true power lists.
(try not to take it personally).
.
)
) does not mean that the 2+ is not going to be used much. In fact it will be used most of the time in fighting against most armies. Who on Earth has an army where AP2 weapons are more than a small minority?
