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Hating them for being a 4 unit codex, that beats my no matter what I do. The person that thought that giving draigo gate was a good idea, must have been a master designer

Grey Knights were especially broken in 5th edition (though I'd say less so than Eldar/Tau/Daemons/Necrons are now). Just consider how many "Counts as Grey Knights" armies were cropping up in that era; everyone wanted to be them and it made the game quite uninteresting; the super-rare specialist Grey Knights in every. single. battle. At least the current crop of broken is diverse.

A lot of people still hold on to that frustration, it wouldn't surprise me as well to learn they're primarily players of the current power-codexes, as all four of them were quite weak in that era, and haven't had their ire raised by subsequent balance screw-ups due to being on the winning side of it. I don't mean this in a malicious way, purely a case of not being victim to bad balancing since GK means they're less likely to be particularly angry about the current state of affairs versus the past, at least not as passionately.

I don't feel especially bad for GK themselves; the one thing I really dislike is the simplfiication of their close combat weapons, it was one of the more interesting things about them, choosing between initiative, attacks, invulns or strength was a good piece of design in a game where "choice" usually boils down to not taking the obvious points trap, and made a codex of otherwise similar units have very different roles purely from their choice of melee weapons.

What I do feel bad for is people who liked the idea of Inquisition armies; Witchunters and Daemonhunters. Thematically, GKs should be rare and obscenely powerful, and having them as a very limited but powerful support unit in a larger army worked mechanically and thematically, even if the overall dex wasn't very strong. Considering those armies still exist if you buy 4 codexes also strikes me as shameful.

The reason people hate Gk is force weapons and generally ap2/3 on every model. That twinned with a good psy dice pool makes them generally fairly good at killing other marines which makes up a large amount people's armies.

On the whining side not sure why interceptors get so much hate, yes they are expensive but loading them with psycanons or psilencers is really amusing and makes rear armouring vehicles really easy and when you have 4-8 s7 rending shots hitting av10 you will generally always take it out with a few storm bolters helping out

While on a practical level the GK codex is ( I guess ) supposed to be a standalone one, in my mind it's basically an ally -oriented book. It's so monotonous that it almost seems it was inteded for the players to take detachments from Inquisition, Assassins, and other imperial forces.

"Powerlevel" -wise I haven't had issues with them, and I mainly play CSM at that. There's much worse things out there.

Why do people hate them?

Ridiculous concept - space marines are supposed to be the 'best of the best' but Grey Knights are space marines +1 which is idiotic because if how OP space marines are in the fluff.

Ap3 everywhere - why do they even need ap weapons when they fight Daemons predominantly and Daemons don't really wear armour.

Draigo - hate that guy; his fluff and his rules.

The player base (IME) - all feel sorry for themselves and don't think that the Dreadknight is extremely OP.
- they fix all of their problems with more Dreadknights.
- they get extremely annoyed if you say something bad about their codex, shouting:
Ally dex, mono-build, snooty edition etc.

Alpha striking - is the most boring list to play against.

They make ridiculous combinations with allies.

They only spam the best units (yet complain if other armies do *cough* Riptide spam *cough*).

I could continue but I think you get the point.

Riptide spam isn't that great. Easily beaten, countered. I agree grey knights are pretty good which is what stems a lot of hate. I play orks and grey knights. I own 4 dreadknights, buying a fifth.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Riptide spam isn't that great. Easily beaten, countered. I agree grey knights are pretty good which is what stems a lot of hate. I play orks and grey knights. I own 4 dreadknights, buying a fifth.

Exactly, Riptide spam is easily beaten but Dreadknight spam isn't (because of how cheap they are).

I'm agreeing bro, not disagreeing. 2+5++(4++possible) is hard to get through.

The one 'issue' I ever had with grey knights was the nemesis dreadknight. Not the rules mind you, but the concept - I couldn't stand the fact the thing wasn't a walker! But then, I realized it's a matter of perspective. The NDK is not a close combat dreadnought, it's literally an oversized suit of terminator armor. It's basically a grey knight paladin with a few stat boosts. I just wish it actually looked like an oversized termie... That would've been cool!

If I ever start a GK army, I'll have to convert the NDK pretty heavily before I'll be satisfied with it.

I can sort of understand the hate for Draigo but then... Aren't all 40K special characters kinda ridiculous? I mean, us orks have Ghaz who's apparently the most psychic ork in the galaxy. He's a religious fanatic whose armor is basically the size of a battle tank and he can telepathically communicate with all the orks he has met in person and he's a tough as all hell, etc. To me, that's just about as outrageous as Draigo, but Ghaz gets a free pass because he's been around longer. I'm not criticizing Ghaz here, just pointing out that most SCs are over the top.

Not to mention the fact that in their latest codex, Draigo's fluff has actually been changed slightly. While he's still the most awesome GK ever, his banishment to the Warp makes him seem like a pretty tragic character all around, especially once you consider that the Chaos Gods can undo any damage he does in the Warp with a snap of their fingers. He's doomed to battle his archenemies forever and never get anywhere. I dig that sort of stuff myself.

@SGTPozy Their weapons are AP4 or better because all force weaponry is based on power weapons. They've had AP3 or better weapons since they were created. Even in the old Daemonhunter book, they were running around with power weapons. Hell, in 5th edition all of their stuff was AP2 even!

Honestly, I don't get why people hate them so much either. Then again, I was never around for 6th edition, so maybe that's the explanation. Bring on da shiny beakies I say! I'll krump dem like da rest o' da lot!

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I'm agreeing bro, not disagreeing. 2+5++(4++possible) is hard to get through.

I know, but I just hate Grey Knights too much (try not to take it personally).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"@SGTPozy Their weapons are AP4 or better because all force weaponry is based on power weapons. They've had AP3 or better weapons since they were created. Even in the old Daemonhunter book, they were running around with power weapons. Hell, in 5th edition all of their stuff was AP2 even!"

Just because it has always been like that it doesn't mean that it's right.

Take Imperial Knights, they've always been a super heavy only army but it doesn't mean that they're not annoying.

SGTPozy wrote:

Ridiculous concept - space marines are supposed to be the 'best of the best' but Grey Knights are space marines +1 which is idiotic because if how OP space marines are in the fluff.

Fair point, but poor fluff is a poor reason to yell hate at an army.

SGTPozy wrote:

Ap3 everywhere - why do they even need ap weapons when they fight Daemons predominantly and Daemons don't really wear armour.

Thats a very good point, ill give you that one.

SGTPozy wrote:

Draigo - hate that guy; his fluff and his rules.

His fluff is terrible, but I think rules wise he is easily comparable with many other top level HQs.

SGTPozy wrote:

The player base (IME) - all feel sorry for themselves and don't think that the Dreadknight is extremely OP.

I dont feel sorry for myself (but thanks for the free condescension!). And I don't think dreadknights are extremely OP. They used to be but they got justifiably toned down. Now they are "powerful" not "over powerful". You are living in the wrong edition.

SGTPozy wrote:

- they fix all of their problems with more Dreadknights.

That's because that is one of only a few options we have. Yell at GW, not us.

SGTPozy wrote:

- they get extremely annoyed if you say something bad about their codex, shouting:

If all you ever here is whining even after receiving balance, I think you would get annoyed too. And you cant even have an adult discussion about it. Its just "OMFG GK are OP and their players are arseholes!!!" which is pretty much your post in a nutshell.

SGTPozy wrote:

Ally dex, mono-build, snooty edition etc.

Again, yell at GW, not us. We would love more variety too.

SGTPozy wrote:

Alpha striking - is the most boring list to play against.

K. Sorry for the tactics bro.

SGTPozy wrote:

They make ridiculous combinations with allies.

Not quite sure what this means.

SGTPozy wrote:

They only spam the best units (yet complain if other armies do *cough* Riptide spam *cough*).

Again, would love variety. Our armies look like spam cause of the lack of variety. I personally would not run 3 x dreadknights cause anyone who does that in any army is cheese.

I don't get the hate towards dreadknights, don't really use my gk as much More than allies to mix things up now but last few games I've had vs gk they were easily dealt with.

Last game I took 2 down with a single 8 man deathcompany squad one after another, ended up with 2 guys left but that was a fair trade for me. Game before I played guard and faced 3 and none of them made it into combat.
There fear factor from previous editions is half there weaponry I swear, people either over commit to take them out and much up there game plan or run from them. It's just a big t6 s10 tterminator, shoot it, swamp it or throw i5+ models at it.

Also with regards to the person who said why do they need ap3 to kill daemons, it's the force part they need, the ap3 is just along for the ride. Also the inquisition use them to hunt traitor legions so the ap3 comes in handy.

With draigo his fluff is lame and I don't know why they couldn't bring other grandmasters into the last codex as isn't there ment to be a few. Equally for a Low he's about right, dante can give him a run for his money and I'm sure future codex will have a draigo of there own. Just not sw your guy kinda sucks, sorry


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and while people are commenting on overpowered monsterous creatures don't forget bel'akor, he would smash most of the others every day.

Yeah, I killed a lot of Dreadknights before I knew the Internet thinks they're scary.

Like with any monstrous creature without T8, massed fire works. As does most anti terminator shooting, and whilst it hits pretty hard it doesn't have the raw attacks to take out elite combat units tough enough to hurt it back.

The biggest problem is people see their high stats and powerful weapons and just assume OP. The raw power of something isn't relevant to it being OP or UP, its the power for points value. GKs are very powerful but pay a high premium for it. Simple as.

Overpowered should be units or models which have high power for low cost. How about grav weaponry for example? Especially on bikes.

I'm not complaining, just trying to give an example of something which has high power for a low cost.

dark_red wrote:
I don't get the hate towards dreadknights, don't really use my gk as much More than allies to mix things up now but last few games I've had vs gk they were easily dealt with.

Last game I took 2 down with a single 8 man deathcompany squad one after another, ended up with 2 guys left but that was a fair trade for me. Game before I played guard and faced 3 and none of them made it into combat.
There fear factor from previous editions is half there weaponry I swear, people either over commit to take them out and much up there game plan or run from them. It's just a big t6 s10 tterminator, shoot it, swamp it or throw i5+ models at it.

Also with regards to the person who said why do they need ap3 to kill daemons, it's the force part they need, the ap3 is just along for the ride. Also the inquisition use them to hunt traitor legions so the ap3 comes in handy.

With draigo his fluff is lame and I don't know why they couldn't bring other grandmasters into the last codex as isn't there ment to be a few. Equally for a Low he's about right, dante can give him a run for his money and I'm sure future codex will have a draigo of there own. Just not sw your guy kinda sucks, sorry


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and while people are commenting on overpowered monsterous creatures don't forget bel'akor, he would smash most of the others every day.

I killed belakor with dakkaguns

was he invisible? That's what makes him so good now, hitting on 6 wounding on what ever but then he normally has a bloody good cover save of 2+ if you play him right. He's a tough cookie.

-5e
-we house rule grey knights to effectively cost 25% more (actually said the opponent gets 25% more points,) and I trounce 3 armies in a row with that handicap to seal the deal. One game going so far as to lose only one razorback and two power armor guys in a 2k vs 2500.
-tau 6e come out.
-we immediately toss the handicap away for grey knights.

niv-mizzet wrote:
-5e
-we house rule grey knights to effectively cost 25% more (actually said the opponent gets 25% more points,) and I trounce 3 armies in a row with that handicap to seal the deal. One game going so far as to lose only one razorback and two power armor guys in a 2k vs 2500.
-tau 6e come out.
-we immediately toss the handicap away for grey knights.

20pt MEQ wasn't enough for you?

The "we play what we have" defense makes me think of our tyranid guy, who will ALWAYS run max flyrants, and when we call him out on it in what's supposed to be a friendly non-competitive house game, he's all like "ITS MY ONLY GOOD UNIT GUYS, I CANT WIN WITHOUT THEM."

Not saying the GK are like this. I recognize that they actually do just have a severe shortage of selections, since I frequently go through codices and build lists for every army.

 Lobukia wrote:
I don't hate on GK, I feel bad for there GK players. Weak sauce codex.

Now fluff GK I can't stand. They kill innocents just to make a bolt gun round, allow the destruction of planets to keep their secret, and kidnap small children to raise them as sacrifices for their armor. Why do they do these horrendous acts?

Because they're pure.

Tzeentch is chuckling while Malcador turns in his stasis pod.

If we kill them - they can't turn them. It's the logical choice .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Losing psybolt and making psycannon salvo effectively removing strike squads/dreads/and razors from viability. Then they made terms cheaper as well as dreadknights. They did it to sell models...

This may be a local meta thing but the reason I dislike Gk at the moment is because the players say: 'All the unit choice got sliced out of the codex and now it's a mono-build dex'. Seriously, every GK list with 5th ed codex I encountered involved: Henchmen, assassins, dreadknights. The lists I faced were just as mono-build as they are now.

That and the fact that I've got people whining they 'need to bring 3 DK's in order to stand a chance' when I'm running Thousand sons.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Ridiculous concept - space marines are supposed to be the 'best of the best' but Grey Knights are space marines +1 which is idiotic because if how OP space marines are in the fluff.

Fair point, but poor fluff is a poor reason to yell hate at an army.

That's why it is only one of the points. Yet again I will refer to Tau; people the how they aren't 'grimdark' enough, so they hate them.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Ap3 everywhere - why do they even need ap weapons when they fight Daemons predominantly and Daemons don't really wear armour.

Thats a very good point, ill give you that one.

Yay

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Draigo - hate that guy; his fluff and his rules.

His fluff is terrible, but I think rules wise he is easily comparable with many other top level HQs.

He can get a 2++... I think that's OP.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

The player base (IME) - all feel sorry for themselves and don't think that the Dreadknight is extremely OP.

I dont feel sorry for myself (but thanks for the free condescension!). And I don't think dreadknights are extremely OP. They used to be but they got justifiably toned down. Now they are "powerful" not "over powerful". You are living in the wrong edition.

In my experience. I say that they are since Riptides and Wraithknights are, so Dreadknights are too.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

- they fix all of their problems with more Dreadknights.

That's because that is one of only a few options we have. Yell at GW, not us.

Tau don't have many more units than GK yet Tau use more than just Broadsides and Riptides.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

- they get extremely annoyed if you say something bad about their codex, shouting:

If all you ever here is whining even after receiving balance, I think you would get annoyed too. And you cant even have an adult discussion about it. Its just "OMFG GK are OP and their players are arseholes!!!" which is pretty much your post in a nutshell.

No, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't swear. GK players IN MY EXPERIENCE have all been dicks, and this thread is about GK hate, so I said why I hate them.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Ally dex, mono-build, snooty edition etc.

Again, yell at GW, not us. We would love more variety too.

GKs should be an ally dex since they are usually an aly in the fluff.
There are more builds but they aren't as powerful as Dreadknight spam and Draigo.
Close combat isn't that hard to get to.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Alpha striking - is the most boring list to play against.

K. Sorry for the tactics bro.

Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

They make ridiculous combinations with allies.

Not quite sure what this means.

Draigo, Tiggy and Grav Centurions.

 Diggory_x wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

They only spam the best units (yet complain if other armies do *cough* Riptide spam *cough*).

Again, would love variety. Our armies look like spam cause of the lack of variety. I personally would not run 3 x dreadknights cause anyone who does that in any army is cheese.

How many do you run?

I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.

This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.

Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.


Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.

"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

I find it hard to swallow that Tau can't put out enough fire to stop some shunting Dreadknights. Hell, BA can do it. And that's a bottom 25% codex. Putting 4 units in someone's face is weak sauce compared to 5th ed SW drop lists. The would sometimes scheme up five or six.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.

This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.

Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.


Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.

On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.

From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.

This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.

Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.


Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.

On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.

From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)

They can't do that the turn they shunt. I only need that one turn usually to get out assault range or gun them down mercilessly. They have the same syndrome as deep striking assault units. The one turn delay assault lag is literally killer. There's a reason DoA went from meaning "Descent of Angels" to "Dead on arrival".

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.

This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.

Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.


Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.

On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.

From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)

They can't do that the turn they shunt. I only need that one turn usually to get out assault range or gun them down mercilessly. They have the same syndrome as deep striking assault units. The one turn delay assault lag is literally killer. There's a reason DoA went from meaning "Descent of Angels" to "Dead on arrival".

Gunning them down mercilessly: 3 IA/Fusion Riptides and 6 Missilesides do not on average put out enough damage to kill 2 Dreadknights with Sanctuary (about 6.9 hp without Marker support, which is not a given, he.might Incinetator/Psycannon them, might shunt with toe in terrain requiring ignore cover etc.).

Moving out of assault range: Riptides move 6 and jump 2d6. Broadsides move 6 and can run 1d6 if they forfeit shooting. Dreadknight moves 12 and charges 2d6. Not particularly great escape odds.


EDIT: I really am curious about a BA setup that guns down 3 Dreadknights in a round.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

I find it hard to swallow that Tau can't put out enough fire to stop some shunting Dreadknights. Hell, BA can do it. And that's a bottom 25% codex. Putting 4 units in someone's face is weak sauce compared to 5th ed SW drop lists. The would sometimes scheme up five or six.

Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DK OP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?

That's not surprising. 2+ armor is where missilesides stop being terrifying; especially against T6. The IA is also weak vs MCs so that's not surprising either. There has to be some weakness to a list that can burn down an entire marine list from 60" away and take no casualties in return. "

Sounds like Tau players have no problem handing out the turn 3 tablings, but can't accept them when they come their way.