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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Given Eldar seem to have had just one bad edition, the chances of the, being nerfed in 8th seem remote.

Agreed. Assuming you refer to 5th, they weren't even the bottom of the heap in that edition.

Martel732 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Given Eldar seem to have had just one bad edition, the chances of the, being nerfed in 8th seem remote.

Agreed. Assuming you refer to 5th, they weren't even the bottom of the heap in that edition.

That would be it, I remember 4th edition's Falconholo Skimmerspam and 3rd editions Altoic and craftworld lists.

They still had Eldrad fortuning and guiding warwalkers stomping around in ruins. I saw that combo table many lists that were considered "superior" in 5th. Scatterlasers were still broken, and 4+++ rerollable was pretty apocalyptic in 5th. How naive we were.

Fun fact: they were 'bad' for more of 6th than they were "good".

For the first half (little more than half), they were a low-tier army with a few shenanigans that kept them from being bottom.

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!

Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.

He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.

Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?

The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!

For example, most people agree that Strikes need something to make them compete alongside Terminators in the Troops slot. The most popular "idea" is to give them the Infiltrate rule and call it done.
However, all you've done is to give Grey Knights the game's outright best Alpha Strike capabilities, which can be combined into a power gaming monster with the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment and cheap as chips Terminators. (alongside those additional shunting units to boot...)
Rather, if Infiltrate comes into play, then Termies need a slight pts increase to compensate (or else no T1 Deep Striking unless the GK player is going 2nd.) OR, instead of Infiltrate, suggest giving Strikes the Scout rule instead, which while still a solid ability, keeps the 100% risk-free DS'ing out of the opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1!


Another big gripe is Purgations. (and really, this is almost entirely due to the Dreadknight being so stupid-good now, and Purifyers still being such an outstanding min/maxing unit! )

Again, you don't "balance the codex" by leaving Dreadknights as they are, while giving Purgations buffs such as longer ranged guns + Perfect Timing + Missile launchers/Lascannons/whatever. All that's doing is now giving Grey Knights 2 ridiculously amazing units, which will simply result in everyone and their mother running 2 NSF detachments to go double DK's + 'Super Devies.'
Instead, up the cost slightly on the Dreadknight, and perhaps suggest a boost such as Prescience in place of Night Vision. (or even something such as giving the unit Monster Hunter or Pinning to their shooting attacks?!)

What you do not do however is suggest things like, "give the Dreadknight the option for a Storm Shield for +20pts" and expect people not to call you out on it! (seriously, give one of the game's already most economic MC's, who comes with Sanctuary as standard to boot, the ability to ensure himself a 2++ save - that's crazy talk!?!) That would be akin to me trying to suggest that in order to "improve" Bloodcrushers they should cost only 40pts/model and come with a 2+ save & Adamantium Will, while Fiends should drop to 25pts/model and gain +2A.
Or else try to suggest giving Pallies Storm Shields when it's easy to near-guarantee Sanctuary by taking an already very efficient Lv3 Libby + The Good Book for 4 rolls on Santic... (and because you're an Imperial, it's also easy to ally in IG Priests who can allow for re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, which as we already know, has left every single DoC & Eldar player being labled as TFG...)


Balance is a two-way street. While the no-so-good stuff needs help, you also have to at least slightly dial back the already ridiculously good stuff. Otherwise you simply end up with 5th edition Grey Knights/7th edition Daemons of Chaos all over again... (and Daemon players are still trying to live THAT one down - nearly 7 years & counting! )

Experiment 626 wrote:
The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!

Please express some understanding of the words "internal" and "external" in regards to balance. You haven't yet addressed this distinction.

Internal balance is NOT a matter of overall power. It is making the various units unique enough and applying sufficiently proper pricing on them that all units are equally viable WITHIN the codex. It doesn't matter if it is scaled up or down, so long as the final product is a set of equally viable units. This is the only sort of balance I have been trying to discuss, and I have made it painfully clear.

External balance is the balance between codexes, and so far this is the only sort of "balance" you have referred to. It's not a matter of holding a different opinion on the same topic so much as arguing on a different topic and calling it the same.

My position is that External balance cannot be satisfactorily achieved until each Codex has a proper Internal balance. My intended topic was to tackle only the Grey Knights Codex, because my base of knowledge includes primarily the Grey Knights and Astra Militarum, and I think AM is just fine at the moment. I leave it to the Xenos, or Chaos, or Vanilla Marine players to open their own threads as to how their Codexes' internal balance can be fixed.

Once all of the Codexes are internally balanced, they can then be compared to each other and their point costs scaled up or down in regards to their relative overall power in relation to other codexes.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!

Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.

He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.

Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?

The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!

For example, most people agree that Strikes need something to make them compete alongside Terminators in the Troops slot. The most popular "idea" is to give them the Infiltrate rule and call it done.
However, all you've done is to give Grey Knights the game's outright best Alpha Strike capabilities, which can be combined into a power gaming monster with the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment and cheap as chips Terminators. (alongside those additional shunting units to boot...)
Rather, if Infiltrate comes into play, then Termies need a slight pts increase to compensate (or else no T1 Deep Striking unless the GK player is going 2nd.) OR, instead of Infiltrate, suggest giving Strikes the Scout rule instead, which while still a solid ability, keeps the 100% risk-free DS'ing out of the opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1!


Another big gripe is Purgations. (and really, this is almost entirely due to the Dreadknight being so stupid-good now, and Purifyers still being such an outstanding min/maxing unit! )

Again, you don't "balance the codex" by leaving Dreadknights as they are, while giving Purgations buffs such as longer ranged guns + Perfect Timing + Missile launchers/Lascannons/whatever. All that's doing is now giving Grey Knights 2 ridiculously amazing units, which will simply result in everyone and their mother running 2 NSF detachments to go double DK's + 'Super Devies.'
Instead, up the cost slightly on the Dreadknight, and perhaps suggest a boost such as Prescience in place of Night Vision. (or even something such as giving the unit Monster Hunter or Pinning to their shooting attacks?!)

What you do not do however is suggest things like, "give the Dreadknight the option for a Storm Shield for +20pts" and expect people not to call you out on it! (seriously, give one of the game's already most economic MC's, who comes with Sanctuary as standard to boot, the ability to ensure himself a 2++ save - that's crazy talk!?!) That would be akin to me trying to suggest that in order to "improve" Bloodcrushers they should cost only 40pts/model and come with a 2+ save & Adamantium Will, while Fiends should drop to 25pts/model and gain +2A.
Or else try to suggest giving Pallies Storm Shields when it's easy to near-guarantee Sanctuary by taking an already very efficient Lv3 Libby + The Good Book for 4 rolls on Santic... (and because you're an Imperial, it's also easy to ally in IG Priests who can allow for re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, which as we already know, has left every single DoC & Eldar player being labled as TFG...)


Balance is a two-way street. While the no-so-good stuff needs help, you also have to at least slightly dial back the already ridiculously good stuff. Otherwise you simply end up with 5th edition Grey Knights/7th edition Daemons of Chaos all over again... (and Daemon players are still trying to live THAT one down - nearly 7 years & counting! )

balance is a two way street but that doesn't mean things that are solid IMMEDIATLY need to be nerfed. case in point Purgation squads aren't "bad" because they compare poorly to the dreadknight. they're just bad, and don't fill any role. THAT'S the problem with both purgation squads and strike squads. they simply don't fill any noticable role.

I agree infiltrate for strikes would be OP. but Scout seems fair. it gives strike squads a distinct ROLE in the GK line of battle. (give them teleport homers, advance them ahead. it plays well with the NSF while also being fluffy strike squads are SUPPOSED to go in first and "spot" for the terminators)


Likewise purgation squads simply lack any real role. sure they can carry more special weapons, but GK special weapons being what they are, aren't really something you need to pack together. and replacing deep strike with nightfighting is just a joke. they need SOMETHING to make them worth taking. yet again it's not that the dreadknight is uber. it's just that there's no real useful role for them in the line of battle.

TLDR strike squads and purgation squads lack any synergy to make them desireable. they need to have something that'll make em useful. even if as a force multiplier.

Grey Knights can take Venoms now?

Unbound lists are really out of control!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!

Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.

He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.

Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?

The problem with many of your suggestions is similar to many other people's suggestions; you're only buffing things. If you really want to balance the current Grey Knights book, then you need to equally apply changes to both ends of the spectrum!

For example, most people agree that Strikes need something to make them compete alongside Terminators in the Troops slot. The most popular "idea" is to give them the Infiltrate rule and call it done.
However, all you've done is to give Grey Knights the game's outright best Alpha Strike capabilities, which can be combined into a power gaming monster with the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment and cheap as chips Terminators. (alongside those additional shunting units to boot...)
Rather, if Infiltrate comes into play, then Termies need a slight pts increase to compensate (or else no T1 Deep Striking unless the GK player is going 2nd.) OR, instead of Infiltrate, suggest giving Strikes the Scout rule instead, which while still a solid ability, keeps the 100% risk-free DS'ing out of the opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1!


Another big gripe is Purgations. (and really, this is almost entirely due to the Dreadknight being so stupid-good now, and Purifyers still being such an outstanding min/maxing unit! )

Again, you don't "balance the codex" by leaving Dreadknights as they are, while giving Purgations buffs such as longer ranged guns + Perfect Timing + Missile launchers/Lascannons/whatever. All that's doing is now giving Grey Knights 2 ridiculously amazing units, which will simply result in everyone and their mother running 2 NSF detachments to go double DK's + 'Super Devies.'
Instead, up the cost slightly on the Dreadknight, and perhaps suggest a boost such as Prescience in place of Night Vision. (or even something such as giving the unit Monster Hunter or Pinning to their shooting attacks?!)

What you do not do however is suggest things like, "give the Dreadknight the option for a Storm Shield for +20pts" and expect people not to call you out on it! (seriously, give one of the game's already most economic MC's, who comes with Sanctuary as standard to boot, the ability to ensure himself a 2++ save - that's crazy talk!?!) That would be akin to me trying to suggest that in order to "improve" Bloodcrushers they should cost only 40pts/model and come with a 2+ save & Adamantium Will, while Fiends should drop to 25pts/model and gain +2A.
Or else try to suggest giving Pallies Storm Shields when it's easy to near-guarantee Sanctuary by taking an already very efficient Lv3 Libby + The Good Book for 4 rolls on Santic... (and because you're an Imperial, it's also easy to ally in IG Priests who can allow for re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, which as we already know, has left every single DoC & Eldar player being labled as TFG...)


Balance is a two-way street. While the no-so-good stuff needs help, you also have to at least slightly dial back the already ridiculously good stuff. Otherwise you simply end up with 5th edition Grey Knights/7th edition Daemons of Chaos all over again... (and Daemon players are still trying to live THAT one down - nearly 7 years & counting! )

If you think Purgation squads are bad because they compete with the DK you sir, are suffering from insanity. Purges pay for power weapons and storm bolters... that are replaced with special weapons (ranging from 5-15 points) that alone we are looking at a 25 point model at least OR a 35 point one, horrible point distribution. Then factor in you could take a 10-man Purifier squad, combat squad them, and for a paltry 15 point, you get double the amount of attacks, ML2, Flame, Soulblaze. Purgation squads outright suck because they have heavy and salvo weapons on a overpriced unit.

BrianDavion wrote:
I agree infiltrate for strikes would be OP. but Scout seems fair. it gives strike squads a distinct ROLE in the GK line of battle. (give them teleport homers, advance them ahead. it plays well with the NSF while also being fluffy strike squads are SUPPOSED to go in first and "spot" for the terminators)

Please explain this to me, as I don't see how Scout could allow Strike Squads with their teleport homer role any better than not having it.

pg171 "After both sides have deployed (including Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy. If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker, or Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6" of its current position... Durring this redeployment, Scouts can move outside the owning player's deployment zone, but must remain more than 12inches away from an enemy unit."

That is useless as it doesn't let the Terminators Deep Strike anywhere they couldn't have just walked to (skipping the risks of Deep Strike altogether).

pg171 "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contans at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy. When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player's own table edge; on a 3-4, they come in from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves."

This doesn't help with teleport homers either, as they can't outflank sooner than turn 2, which means they can't help reduce scatter until turn 3. The Grey Knights are sunk if you throw points into Strike Squads that don't come in until turn 2, and your Terminators are still off the table until turn 3.

Scout doesn't help Strike Squads fulfill their role any better than Night Vision helps the Purgation Squads, with Night Fighting being what it is. My intention was not to slap Infiltrate on the current Strike Squads. Strike Squads need to be re-worked to fill the same role as Space Marine Scouts, with whatever Special Rule changes or gear changes would come with that. (Note: they are still Grey Knights, so they shouldn't take a hit to stats, because they aren't the rookies, and their gear was hand-picked by the Emperor, so they'd still have base Storm Bolters rather than Bolters or Bolt pistols, which means they would cost more than base Space Marine Scouts).

Let's say you have 3 homers on the board. Sure, you could have walked on to one of them (not exactly true, should give you +radius even without scout), and protect your DSers from any Alpha). But now, you can chose any of three locations with no scatter, instead of being stuck with where you deployed. Based on everything that has happened, that choice could easily change.

And having that homer be a safe choice doesn't prevent you from not using it if you really want to deep strike behind their lines.

Ideally, you're paying for choice. Potentially overpaying, but it is a benefit.

Bharring wrote:
Let's say you have 3 homers on the board. Sure, you could have walked on to one of them (not exactly true, should give you +radius even without scout), and protect your DSers from any Alpha). But now, you can chose any of three locations with no scatter, instead of being stuck with where you deployed. Based on everything that has happened, that choice could easily change.

And having that homer be a safe choice doesn't prevent you from not using it if you really want to deep strike behind their lines.

Ideally, you're paying for choice. Potentially overpaying, but it is a benefit.

But what good is not scattering when the Terminators could WALK to the location just as easily?

GK page 66, "At the onset of battle, a Grey Knight commander will invariably task one or more Strike Squads with the capture of vital locations and key objectives, deploying them via fixed teleporter to ensure a swift seizure of isolated or inaccessible locations."

The whole point of Strike Squads it to allow the Terminators to Deep Strike behind enemy lines reliably, in "inaccessible locations". Making Strike Squads a better trained/equipped version of the Space Marine Scouts with Infiltrate and Teleport Homers would allow them to do this. Scout does not.

Strike Squads need to be completely re-worked into a BS4 version of Space Marine Scouts, complete with Infiltrate.

I can see your point. I'm not refuting your need for it (don't know enough about GK, but would caution making it too easy to get super tough decently killy stuff anywhere they want to be!).

My point is that, (1) you couldn't necessarily walk there, as you have the distance of the Homer radius (also, what's the Rhino situation for them?), and (2), you could walk to any one, sure, but you'd have to pick that one at deployment, whereas with DS, you get to pick it when you come in. Or decide to not use it at all. Those options aren't allowed when walking to there.

(WS4 3+ guys, plus don't they have power weapons, are a very different animal from Scouts. Granted, there are other melee threat infiltrators, but unless I'm wrong about what Strike Squads are, they are very different from Scouts. So should cost a boatload more to get infiltrate + scout)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The way I read that, they get into place traditionally, and place homers in places where GK Termies *might* be needed, but:
1) No real mention of 'Behind enemy lines'. If anything, it sounds like the homers are for mid-range and/or flank objectives that are too cluttered to be safe to teleport into.
2) It sounds like the Strike Squad locks down the objective, only diverting the Termies/Pallies/whatever to their location if they might fail. So, typically, DSing GKs deploy in the thick of it, only using the homers if the Strike Squad can't handle what they've encountered.
3) Precision deepstrikeing a DS-heavy army that wreaks most in CC so close that they can't run away should be absurdly costly, if possible. Doing it cheaply would be auto-win against many codexes
4) Strike Squads might be the first ones in, and might be a little better than most at getting into position, but they arent DSing in, if they are the ones making DS safe for that location. So you have a unit of giant Power-armored super-soldiers in super-shiny armor sneaking through enemy territory? How could they match, much less exceed, things like Dire Avengers, Kalabite Warriors, or Fire Warriors at this? So how are they infiltrating/scouting?

How are you walking to a position over 12" from the deployment zone? 6" scout plus ds within 6" +1.5" base plus second terminator base of 1.5"

It's not totally behind lines, but it's significantly better...

Bharring wrote:
I can see your point. I'm not refuting your need for it (don't know enough about GK, but would caution making it too easy to get super tough decently killy stuff anywhere they want to be!).

My point is that, (1) you couldn't necessarily walk there, as you have the distance of the Homer radius (also, what's the Rhino situation for them?), and (2), you could walk to any one, sure, but you'd have to pick that one at deployment, whereas with DS, you get to pick it when you come in. Or decide to not use it at all. Those options aren't allowed when walking to there.

(WS4 3+ guys, plus don't they have power weapons, are a very different animal from Scouts. Granted, there are other melee threat infiltrators, but unless I'm wrong about what Strike Squads are, they are very different from Scouts. So should cost a boatload more to get infiltrate + scout)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The way I read that, they get into place traditionally, and place homers in places where GK Termies *might* be needed, but:
1) No real mention of 'Behind enemy lines'. If anything, it sounds like the homers are for mid-range and/or flank objectives that are too cluttered to be safe to teleport into.
2) It sounds like the Strike Squad locks down the objective, only diverting the Termies/Pallies/whatever to their location if they might fail. So, typically, DSing GKs deploy in the thick of it, only using the homers if the Strike Squad can't handle what they've encountered.
3) Precision deepstrikeing a DS-heavy army that wreaks most in CC so close that they can't run away should be absurdly costly, if possible. Doing it cheaply would be auto-win against many codexes
4) Strike Squads might be the first ones in, and might be a little better than most at getting into position, but they arent DSing in, if they are the ones making DS safe for that location. So you have a unit of giant Power-armored super-soldiers in super-shiny armor sneaking through enemy territory? How could they match, much less exceed, things like Dire Avengers, Kalabite Warriors, or Fire Warriors at this? So how are they infiltrating/scouting?

Vanilla Marines get Drop Pods, we don't. The other Marines with their own Codexes (BA & SW) get Drop Pods, and we don't. Every other Marine faction can put homers behind enemy lines, and insert powerful Space Marines and Dreadnoughts behind enemy units safely and reliably, with their Drop Pods. They all also have Scouts, which, you guessed it, Grey Knights don't have.

The Grey Knights having their own Infiltrating unit is the next best thing to getting Drop Pods (and honestly, Grey Knights don't need new units so much as we need the ones we have to be worth taking).

Strike Squads having scout would only expand the no-scatter bubble by 6". At the end of turn 1, if they move 6" forward, that's 12" ahead of the Deployment Zone that Terminators can Deep Strike safely at the start of turn 2. If they had deployed and just walked forward they'd get that far on their turn 2 movement. Or if they ran they'd have the chance to get that far on turn 1. And putting the Strike Squad in a Dedicated Transport would just extend that another 6", which is still the middle of no-man's land. Either way, they'd have to foot-slog through enemy fire to get where they need to go. Deep Strike is the only high mobility available to most of the Grey Knights units, and it is only when they arrive.

"Inaccessible" means they can't get there. Strike Squads are supposed to open new locations to the rest of the Grey Knights that they can't simply walk to.

Better Gear = higher cost. That's why the Strike Squads are currently not viable, they have all of the nice gear, yet die just as easily as vanilla marines, before they have the chance to use most of it. I'd be fine with dropping the Force weapons from the Strike Squads if they could Infiltrate. there are a lot of changes I'd accept if they could just be changed to fill this role that they are supposedly designed for, yet utterly fail at. As for BS4, Space Wolf Scouts are their elite units rather than recruits, so they have BS4, so it's not unheard of. And the thinning process for recruits of the Grey Knights before they even begin training would kill most Space Marines, so there is no reason for any of their units to have less than BS4, regardless of their role.

 Bill1138 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Let's say you have 3 homers on the board. Sure, you could have walked on to one of them (not exactly true, should give you +radius even without scout), and protect your DSers from any Alpha). But now, you can chose any of three locations with no scatter, instead of being stuck with where you deployed. Based on everything that has happened, that choice could easily change.

And having that homer be a safe choice doesn't prevent you from not using it if you really want to deep strike behind their lines.

Ideally, you're paying for choice. Potentially overpaying, but it is a benefit.

But what good is not scattering when the Terminators could WALK to the location just as easily?

GK page 66, "At the onset of battle, a Grey Knight commander will invariably task one or more Strike Squads with the capture of vital locations and key objectives, deploying them via fixed teleporter to ensure a swift seizure of isolated or inaccessible locations."

The whole point of Strike Squads it to allow the Terminators to Deep Strike behind enemy lines reliably, in "inaccessible locations". Making Strike Squads a better trained/equipped version of the Space Marine Scouts with Infiltrate and Teleport Homers would allow them to do this. Scout does not.

Strike Squads need to be completely re-worked into a BS4 version of Space Marine Scouts, complete with Infiltrate.

1. You still get the fling your Termies roughly 13.5-15'ish inches forwards when aiming for a Turn 1 Deep Strike. That's still very powerful and allows you to get your heaviest troops into the thick of it and get the drop on opponents before they can react.
Also, keep in mind that with the Nemesis Strikeforce rules, you can actively Run and then shoot to full effect (or vice-versa). That can give you an additional 1-6" before you shoot, thus giving you ever more reach. (on a 'perfect' roll, your Termies are suddenly roughly 19" up the field - that's pretty damn good!)

Infiltrate on the other hand is utterly game breaking, especially when combo'ed with the NSF detachment. You'd get the ability to 100% risk-free pull off the game's ultimate Alpha Strike, even before your opponent can react.
Landing Termies + Interceptors + Dreadknights with 100% accuracy inside your opponent's deployment zone, possibly before they get a single turn is just too godly. It's moving into Turn 1 auto-win territory, similar to what Warp Quake did last edition.


2. Strike Squads are traditionally the Vanguard of the Grey Knights forces. They are not true infiltrators who operate behind enemy lines!! They're more akin to a flanking or forward operating force, not stealthy dudes who run amok within enemy territory.

Making them "Super Scouts" would make them utterly broken filth.

Rhinos give you a lot more than just +6" movement.

Grey Knights are not vanilla marines. They don't have scouts to infiltrate. They don't have pods raining from a battle barge above.

What they do have is much more TDA. And psykers. And power weapons.

'Inaccessible', I would think, would mean three things in this regard:
-Impassible/difficult terrain - Strike Squads can make their way through difficult, and the homer isn't blocked by Impassible
-Within-engagement-range - Strike Squads move in T1 to where the GKs couldn't stage before the battle
-Unsafe for DS - perhaps debris everywhere. Perhaps lots of enemies. At any rate, if its ~50+ chance of failure, it'd be seen as 'impossible to get to' for DSing. Homing beacons fix this.

Behind enemy lines might also be considered 'impossible', but (1) it would be called out specifically, and (2) its already not inaccessible, you just risk a bad scatter.

Deep strikers don't *require* precision. Just hedge your bets. If you want to start within 6" of the enemy, it should be a risk.

If you drop their Force weapons, they aren't GKs. If they keep them, they are going to be quite nasty. In addition to being psykers.

Being anywhere you want with almost anything you want t2 should be risky.

If you want SM scouts, field SM scouts. If you want Strike Squads, field Strike Squads. But you can't just give Strike Squads abilities that fit neither their fluff nor play style, then be surprised that not everybody likes it.

Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.

What are you referring to? The Grey Knights codex contains all of the GREY KNIGHTS units. The 5th Edition codex was an aberration of unrelated, and quite frankly game breaking (at that time), unit combinations.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.

What are you referring to? The Grey Knights codex contains all of the GREY KNIGHTS units. The 5th Edition codex was an aberration of unrelated, and quite frankly game breaking (at that time), unit combinations.

Every other Codes allows the player to build armies to achieve different strategies by choosing the different units without those choices being handicaps.

The Grey Knights are currently designed to be a Deep Strike, Alpha Strike List. Deep Strike is dangerous as the units can scatter up to 12", and just about any other army can fairly easily position their units to deny the Grey Knights the ability to Deep Strike in any sort of flanking position. An entire Codex built around Deep Strike without any reliable means of Deep Striking any more accurately than anything else in the entire game, is absurd. The only quasi-reliable way to use Teleport Homers is if you stick Strike Squads in a Nemesis Strike force and the successfully arrive on turn 1 and their Justicars survive until your turn 2, and you stick the rest of your Deep Striking units in a Combined Arms Detachment and they successfully arrive on turn 2, and this is supposing there's still enough open space between your Strike Squads and the enemy units for them to have a place to land.

If you took an exact copy of Space Marine Scouts, and plastered it over the Strike Squad profile, right down to the pt costs and options, it would be an improvement. Ideally the Strike Squads would have something that makes them more Grey Knight-y which would likely involve some sort of price increase.

 Bill1138 wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
Almost every other Codex functions as a Stand-alone. Grey Knights once had great variety, and now function better as an ally than a stand-alone army. No army should have to ally for something so basic, and so closely tied to the primary strategy the Codex is built around.

What are you referring to? The Grey Knights codex contains all of the GREY KNIGHTS units. The 5th Edition codex was an aberration of unrelated, and quite frankly game breaking (at that time), unit combinations.

Every other Codes allows the player to build armies to achieve different strategies by choosing the different units without those choices being handicaps.

The Grey Knights are currently designed to be a Deep Strike, Alpha Strike List. Deep Strike is dangerous as the units can scatter up to 12", and just about any other army can fairly easily position their units to deny the Grey Knights the ability to Deep Strike in any sort of flanking position. An entire Codex built around Deep Strike without any reliable means of Deep Striking any more accurately than anything else in the entire game, is absurd. The only quasi-reliable way to use Teleport Homers is if you stick Strike Squads in a Nemesis Strike force and the successfully arrive on turn 1 and their Justicars survive until your turn 2, and you stick the rest of your Deep Striking units in a Combined Arms Detachment and they successfully arrive on turn 2, and this is supposing there's still enough open space between your Strike Squads and the enemy units for them to have a place to land.

If you took an exact copy of Space Marine Scouts, and plastered it over the Strike Squad profile, right down to the pt costs and options, it would be an improvement. Ideally the Strike Squads would have something that makes them more Grey Knight-y which would likely involve some sort of price increase.

So your complaint is that they can't deep strike more accurately than everything else in the game that deep strikes normally?

Deep Striking is a huge tactical advantage especially for a midrange shooting army. With those advantages come certain risks. Good players can mitigate those risks very easily by accounting for average scatter and placing DS'ing units accordingly.

I can also mitigate the effects of a deep strike, especially against a striking list with no ranged blast weapons. I can clump up huge parts of my list with impunity and present a tiny footprint. Then leave a picket force that absorbs flamer templates. My counter strike turn will be devastating to the GK.

Martel732 wrote:
I can also mitigate the effects of a deep strike, especially against a striking list with no ranged blast weapons. I can clump up huge parts of my list with impunity and present a tiny footprint. Then leave a picket force that absorbs flamer templates. My counter strike turn will be devastating to the GK.

As you should be able to - it's called tactics.

Nuggz, other factions have things like Infiltrate, and units like Drop Pods, which are far better options for getting units behind enemy lines, and some units in the game reduce their own scatter (I believe the BA have at least one at the moment). The Grey Knights don't.

The problem is that the Grey Knights DS better than absolutely no one, and there are other codexes that have better DS than average.

We have one tactic available to us and it is easily shut down. That's not tactics, that's our codex not measuring up.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Nuggz, other factions have things like Infiltrate, and units like Drop Pods, which are far better options for getting units behind enemy lines, and some units in the game reduce their own scatter (I believe the BA have at least one at the moment). The Grey Knights don't.

The problem is that the Grey Knights DS better than absolutely no one, and there are other codexes that have better DS than average.

We have one tactic available to us and it is easily shut down. That's not tactics, that's our codex not measuring up.

That and the only other people who DS without something easily available are sacrificial units, like CSM's termi-cide units, trying to DS a strong unit tends to get it killed from a variety of factors.

As someone that plays pure GK most of the time, giving Strikes Infiltrate and teleport homers is a terrible idea. As others have pointed out, it takes them to a level where you have no risk for very valuable units being dropped into your opponents face. If you are looking for balance (internally or externally) this is not where you find it.

Scout is an interesting idea, as it allows you to "redeploy" your army to where ever you need them to be to counter your opponents deployment, no mater what turn you get.

As another option, you could give them a rule that if placed in DS reserve, they automatically come in on turn 1. This follows the theme of them creating the beachhead for the rest of the army. I have also been toying around with the idea that they have some sort of reduced scatter when they come in on turn 1 (maybe only d6), but I haven't come to a amount that I really think is good but not busted yet. The reason I think that this could work are that Strike squads are limited in their special weapons (1 per 5 models), so actually make a lackluster alpha strike( unless you have a ten man squad, but then you are looking at a well over 200 point unit with only a 3+ save). However, the much lower price for Strike Squads over Terminators means that you could theoretically drop 3-4 units of them, each with a teleport homer, turn one so that on turn 2 all of your heavy hitters can come in close to your opponent with little danger. This fit the fluff and gives your opponent a chance to react to the first deployment, instead of just watching half of their army disappear turn one without being about to do anything about it.

Bill1138, I've read your other thread and, though I agree with you on a lot of the units that need help, I disagree entirely with how you want to fix them. If you give Purgation Squads Relentless (or something like it), then they can use all of our special weapons to full effect as a fire support unit. Being about to have 4 special weapons in a 5 man squad would actually make them better than Purifiers in this roll, as you don't have to pay for the extra 5 guys. Also, if you have a proper platform for it, the psilencer becomes a weapon that is useful for what it was designed for (throwing down a large rate of fire to crush hordes and T3/4/5 multi-wound models). You also get around the 24" range of our weapons by making them now mobile so they can support the army as it moves. That one changes makes Puragation squads something I would strongly consider taking. If Dreadnaughts got a Skyfire option, that would be good enough to make them usable. I won't go in to the other changes you suggest, but I generally disagree with them as well.

Trying to turn the Grey Knights in to a vanilla SM army is not a good idea. We are different and play different. Puragation squads aren't Devestators, nor should they be. Strike squads aren't Scouts, nor should they be. We have our own strengths, weaknesses, and play style. Trying to change that loses who we are. I don't want to end up just playing grey Space Marines, or go back to when the words "Grey Knight" were seen as a synonymous to TFG.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Nuggz, other factions have things like Infiltrate, and units like Drop Pods, which are far better options for getting units behind enemy lines, and some units in the game reduce their own scatter (I believe the BA have at least one at the moment). The Grey Knights don't.

The problem is that the Grey Knights DS better than absolutely no one, and there are other codexes that have better DS than average.

We have one tactic available to us and it is easily shut down. That's not tactics, that's our codex not measuring up.

GK have other advantages like Nemesis Strike Force, teleporting Dreadknights, Interceptors, etc. It's not just about DS, it's about getting in your opponent's face early in the game. GK have tools to do this - all I'm reading in these threads is, "But we want moooore!"

The problem with a one-trick pony is that what if there is a list they DON'T want to be in the face of?

Martel732 wrote:
The problem with a one-trick pony is that what if there is a list they DON'T want to be in the face of?

Use better tactics to get better dice rolls than your opponent!

Better tactics solve everything! World hunger, AIDS, global warming, you name it and tactics can solve it!

Tactics are sadly rather limited in this game.