Hey mates. Got into a huge debate recently with my mates which I wanted to run by you. If you are not aware, I am playing in a Apocalypse game coming up and I will be borrowing my mates stuff to run a 3,000 point Imperial Fist Sentinels of Terra Drop POd army lead by Pedro Kantor. However as we talked last night about the upcoming battle, I was asked why was I going Sentinels of Terra when there are so many armies that can do a Drop Pod list better. I countered that each Drop Pod list had it's strength's and weakness and that fluff is also something that can play a part, but some of my mates claimed that only a few can be successful Drop Pod lists and that I would be better off either with the Salamanders or Iron Hands. Needless to say, that got me thinking and I ask this question to all of you:

Players: Which Drop Pod list have you had the the most success playing as and why? Opponents: Which Drop Pod list have you struggled the most against and why?

* Salamanders: Obvious choice due to all of the Special Rules and benefits they get with Flamer and Melta Weaponry.

* Iron Hands: Tough as Nails with some of the Nastiest Dreadnoughts in the game, as well as FNP Marines.

* Blood Angels: Tac Squads with Heavy Flamers and the Best Assault Marines who are scoring and have access to both Flamers and Melta's.

* Space Wolves: Tac Squads can have 2x Special Weapons per 10x guys (3x counting there Sgt.), considered Best All-Around Troop Squad for Space Marines.

* Imperial Fists: Primarily Sentinels of Terra, who get Twin-Linked Bolter Weaponry at Half-Range, and Tank Hunters for all Elite and Heavy Choices. Scoring Sternguard thanks to Pedro Kantor.

* Black Templars: MSU Drop Pod Squads thanks to the Crusader Squads.

* Ultramarines: Very Tactically-Flexible with there Chapter Tactic.

These are the primary ones that pop into my head at the moment as they are the only ones I have come across, but if I missed any please feel free to share. Note, the point of this is to actually have a classic debate with a bunch of fellow gamers on why we feel a certain Chapter/Codex can field the most effective Drop Pod list, and it can be for both rules and fluff wise. Please share your reasoning instead of just voting. Would be better if I could offer you all a Pint of Beer to go with it due to Saint Patrick's day coming up but here is a toast for you all anyways .

For me for example, I voted the Imperial Fists through the Sentinels of Terra book. I have always been a huge fan of there fluff and background, and with there Close-Order Bolter Drill, these guys encourage an army of a lot of Tactical Marines, being supported by a few Elite units with specific roles. Plus, adding Pedro Kantor makes Sternguard, probably the best Drop Pod unit for Marines arguably, as Scoring, making them even more worth there points. To sum it all up: Great Shooting, Twin-Linked Bolter Shots at Half-Range, Scoring Sternguard, and lots of bodies on the table.

I voted Blood Angels because 5 man Assault squads with 3 meltagun shots on turn one is pretty freaking good.... and that only costs 115 points

Space wolves for 3 meltas in a squad and counter attack. Drop, pew pew, overwatch, get 3 attacks per when you get charged. Also access to fast attack pods to put all kinds of fun allies in them. Imperial fists are a close second and a good ally choice since they can take dev cents in elite and heavy slots.

Iron Hands. The IWND on the Dreads, and Pods, is nasty, but then you leverage that with IWND support vehicles, such as Predators, and Storm Talons.

Add to that, Chapter Master Smash-Whatever and a few Bike Squads, you can Drop Dreads all over objectives, providing tough support fire for the advancing Bikes. Toss a Master of the Forge with some Honour Guard in a Raven or Raider to have a nearly unkillable delivery system for a very efficient CC squad.

Let your MotF buff some ruins, and drop your Dreads into them for bonus to their cover save, with IWND. If you don't like bikes, go Sniper Scouts with Camo, and have 2+ cover saves on those objective grabbers.

It all stacks together to be sooooo damned tough.

Salamanders.

Space Wolves are easily the best. Use the Wolves Unleashed detachment to get it's benefit. Take Grey Hunters in pods with 3 Meltas. Ally some AM Veterans with 3 Meltaguns and a Democharge and put them into the FA pods ( that's a S8 AP3 Large Blast flying out of your pod the instant it arrives, along with 3 Melta Guns if I remember the stats correctly. The unit doesn't cost much so you won't even care when they die. ) Take 2 bare Rune Priests and some Wolf Guard with combi-meltas to give those 5+ melta shots reroll to hit ( cya tanks ) and maybe an axe for the counter charge + instant death. And yeah, then you have those drop podding 3++ melee monster dreadnoughts for quite a reasonable price for what they are capable of, plus being one of the best threats to land in your opponents deployment zone to scramble their gameplay.


BA doesn't come close to the alpha strike potential of Wolves ( with pods, that is ) and they are the only 2 codices currently who can share their pods with Battle Brothers. Hence leaving other marines far behind. Hence, the Wolves are the most powerful drop pod army.

IG are pretty insane with demolisher specialists in allied pods. Also, SOB with allied pods.

Chaos space marines. Oh, wait, no. Despite being prolific raiders they apparently left them all in the Eye...

100% Blood Angels!

I was going to ask a similar thing just the other day and got sidetracked, so i will put my points in.

I feel there is no right answer.

Salamanders
Salamanders are often the army i think will be the best at drop-podding. however their benefits only cover flamers (unless vulkan is about). This limits their strength to command squads with 5 flamers or assault squads with 2 flamers generically. With Vulkan you can get some more out of meltaguns but it's limited because of the limited number of meltas you can equip.

Blood Angels
I think these are your winners. There is a formation where you can take more assault squads apparently (i dont know what it is). Either way, tactical squads with 4 flamer templates and assault squads with 4 specials are very useful. Couple that with Pods that can carry anything, cheap HQs, and good dreadnoughts it's a good combo.

Space Wolves
An army i wish would be nuked, i just hate the space marines but better and wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf stuff. That being said they have the most logical tactical squads with dual weapons. Other than that i dont think they are great at it, i don't know enough though.

Iron Hands (or Clan Raukaan)
Useful durability i suppose. Other than that they dont shine.

Imperial fists (both kinds)
Useful bolter stuff, which is good because of the number of bolters. but bolters are still not very good so meh. lots of (expensive) sternguard.

Ultramarines
These guys are good but often under valued and too jack of all trades. pick and choose bonuses are useful for a number of reasons. Always take Calgar for pick and choose morale and bonus tactic for a pod list but build for empty pods to get the most out of other things.

Honestly I think i'd go BA for sheer massed specials.

Uhhhh Star Phantoms? Twin-linked everything for a turn I would say beats out a lot of the bonuses the other guys get.

Tyranids. Nothing says surprise like a surprise Dimachaeron, or Hive Tyrant, or 20 gaunts, hell anything surprise from Tyranids is something you'll have to immediately deal with. Sure they have weird drop pods, but still a drop pod.

BA are not a good drop list. I really wish this misconception would die. The BA chapter tactic is furious charge. The BA want to charge at close range. Drop pods turn off our chapter tactic. Furthermore, 3X BS melta shots are NOT that reliable anymore.

I go with Blood Angels. I play Blood Angels, and I will build a foamcore drop pod for them one day.

Flesh Tearer Detachment plus Sisters of Battle (for Dominions and HF Rets). Nasty.

I was thinking if you can put jump pack units in an allied drop pod you could make use of raven guard. Stealth save on turn 1 and move twice. But it's a bit limited.

I'm surprised that Blood Angels aren't winning the poll since they're far superior to other drop pod armies (especially Space Wolves).

SGTPozy wrote:
I'm surprised that Blood Angels aren't winning the poll since they're far superior to other drop pod armies (especially Space Wolves).

I agree especially if the flesh tearers thing is correct. 6 assault squads?

Does anyone know where the rules are for this?

Boniface wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
I'm surprised that Blood Angels aren't winning the poll since they're far superior to other drop pod armies (especially Space Wolves).

I agree especially if the flesh tearers thing is correct. 6 assault squads?

Does anyone know where the rules are for this?

Exterminatus, iirc.

SGTPozy wrote:
I'm surprised that Blood Angels aren't winning the poll since they're far superior to other drop pod armies (especially Space Wolves).

No, they're not. I'd be happy to demonstrate for any BA player that thinks they are gonna get over on me with pods. The fabled 3 X melta pod ASM are around 50/50 to pop a rhino. I'm quaking in my boots, let me tell you. They're really scary to an IK, because of the point differential, but against cheaper tanks they are meh.

 ultimentra wrote:
Uhhhh Star Phantoms? Twin-linked everything for a turn I would say beats out a lot of the bonuses the other guys get.

Thats quite the truth.

Still think the Allied ODST ig vets are way cooler though.

Space Wolves as they are close quarter fighters.
BA is still meh.

For a pod ARMY, I would probably go with wolves or dreadnought-spam Fleshtearer detachment BA. Furioso libbies as HQ, Cassor as necessary troop, a pod for him as a fast, and fragiosos in the elites. Sprinkle in some suicide asm 5man squads with the other 5 fast attacks to fill points, or drop over to heavy for some stormraven aerial power.


For some suicide squads in pods in an otherwise normal army, I'd take BA all the way.

Fragiosos, double melta/double inferno 5man asm, and heavy flamer/double hand flamer 5man tacs are my goto pod riders. They're fairly cheap, and the enemy HAS to kill them on their turn, else they face the wrath of a second wave of shots at another target plus a furious charge, and all this helps distract from the approaching army.

Haha Blood Angels are winning now!

SGTPozy wrote:
Haha Blood Angels are winning now!

I gave my vote to BA for the same reason that I'm modelling them right now -- they have the best tactical/assault/dreadnought models

However, I think the only way BA would be superior to SW is if you were playing 3500+ points, and took enough drop pods to seriously abuse Angel's Fury/Augur Triangulation.

I don't think I could bring myself to buying 10, 15, or whatever number of drop pods and painting them all one faction, so I think it's irrelevant for me, hehehe. But for anyone that does, I'm sure Games Workshop is very happy with you

I'm a fan of Imperial Fist Sentinels of Terra. Twin linked is great, especially seeing how you're dropping near them! Who exactly are you playing against though?

 luky7dayz wrote:
I'm a fan of Imperial Fist Sentinels of Terra. Twin linked is great, especially seeing how you're dropping near them! Who exactly are you playing against though?

For the Apocalypse game, not 100% sure but all I do know is that I expect to see Necrons and some Chaos Space Marines. That being said, looks like the Salamanders are still considered one of the top Drop Pod lists, however for the BA, surpised by the number of votes they are getting, however then again it seems that the main reason is due to that Flesh Tearers Formation, where you can have 4x Tac Squads and 6x Assault Squads. Space Wolves are a good Drop Pod Army, but I feel that giving Grey Hunters Melta and have them go after tanks is a waste of 7x Guys with Bolters, hence why I never really looked at them.

Reason I love the Imperial Fists Sentinels of Terra Drop Pod list is that my Tac Squads job is to go after the opponents Infantry and claim objectives, while the Command Squad and Sternguard Squads, along with the flyer focus on killing vehicles. Which is great as ALL Imperial Fists Heavy and Elite Units have the Tank Hunter Special Rule, making them even nastier when Alpha Striking and giving the Fire Raptor some extra punch against vehicles and other Flyers. And although it's not much, there have been times where Plasma has been able to do some damage to both vehicles and troops so the Tac Squads can also go after some things that is usually only reserved for Melta's. OVerall, SOT to me are just a very easy, flexible, effective Drop Pod Army that can do a lot and I have had good success trying them out.

SW has a nifty little formation of drop pod WG and teleporting WGT they arrive first turn and close to one another they get twin linked on all shooting attacks.

pay the points for it and you unleash a metric feth tonne of dakka into something that is probably dead

with 3000 points if you had the models to run it then it becomes BA almost hands down thanks to Angels Fury Spearhead force formation

3x Storm raven + 3x Tac squad that then allow the drop pods to DS without scattering, so long as they land within 12in of two Stormravens (the formation rolls for reserves from turn 1 and can re-roll) and the unit inside can then Assault turn 1.

a Bunch of assaulting units out of pods plus 3 Stormravens and 3 tac sqauds in your face turn 1 is a lot to deal with, however it only works in large games of really at least 2000 points.

Lower than that and the BA really only have the 4x melta drop pods which while nice aren't enough to make it the best at all.

BTW, Ultramarines with Calgar have proven to be the most effective full droppod army in GT.

 koooaei wrote:
BTW, Ultramarines with Calgar have proven to be the most effective full droppod army in GT.

I think the reason they're not so prominent in the poll is the cost of Calgar and the relative difficulty of running them. They're more finesse than point and click.
The plus side for Ultras is empty pods for offsetting the initial deployment (devastators with pod). Calgar is also a beast and has an orbital bombardment.

I still prefer BA personally, but that's because they're easier to play generically.

When i do a drop pod army i will magnetise and paint in a generic colour to mix and match.

Find space wolves to be a solid drop pod army, especially when you use the wolves unleashed detachment so you can count on getting at least one unit on a turn. Given they have counter attack, and Grey Hunters can take a CCW for 2pts, it means that should your opponent decide to charge your packs, you are have three attacks in the first round, so having to drop down, shoot and wait isn't as big a problem as it can be for other chapters

 BlackArmour wrote:
with 3000 points if you had the models to run it then it becomes BA almost hands down thanks to Angels Fury Spearhead force formation

3x Storm raven + 3x Tac squad that then allow the drop pods to DS without scattering, so long as they land within 12in of two Stormravens (the formation rolls for reserves from turn 1 and can re-roll) and the unit inside can then Assault turn 1.

a Bunch of assaulting units out of pods plus 3 Stormravens and 3 tac sqauds in your face turn 1 is a lot to deal with, however it only works in large games of really at least 2000 points.

Lower than that and the BA really only have the 4x melta drop pods which while nice aren't enough to make it the best at all.

Yes, this is what I was referring to. The more points your game, the more this can be abused, because Angel's Fury scales exceptionally well with some great BA detachments that are drop pod friendly in high point games -- Flesh Tearer's strikeforce and Archangel's strikeforce both come to mind as highly abusable (especially combining them).

3000 points is really where it gets scary, and 3500+, you can drop enough furiosos and killy charge units to just pick out extremely disruptive T1 kills.

Just with troops choice sw hands down. Overall though I'd say blood angels edge it. 5man heavy flamer or 10man quad flame with 5man double meltas assault squads gives you good cheap options at minimal size. Even the furioso with frag canon and heavy flamer can be quite effective vs some forces.
Play it right and have dc or dc dreads pod close and line up a charge next turn you give your opponent a real headache of target ppriority.
They have a lot of tools for a lot of armies.


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That's from both a guard/ork perspective of playing them and from a sw ba perspective of using them.
Luckily I often play sw and ba together anyway which since the new codex doesn't feel like the sw are carrying the ba

Let me make this more clear: I have never lost to a BA drop list. Ever. Not in 5th. Not in 6th. The one I faced in 7th, I tabled it. Not enough has really changed for them since 5th for it to be viable. Yes, they get a few extra guns, but that's not enough.

In contrast, I have lost to SW drop lists at a high rate. They are just better at it because of how they work.

Going for SW, not just because of the 2x special weapons, and 30 attacks when charged or on the charge. I am putting in for SW because they also have some of, if not the, best dreadnoughts for a drop pod list.
Axe/Shield dreadnoughts are amazing in drop pod lists. They are very durable threats that must be dealt with, or they will walk through just about anything in their path.
Wolves also have the less popular option of Wolf Guard with full combi weapons. It gets expensive, but you can really make sure something dies on turn 1.
Drop pods also allow you to drop where you want, making the wolf standard amazingly useful (suddenly each GH squad has 40 attacks each)
I also feel that if you wanted areal support, the Stormwolf is better than a Stormraven.

Martel732 wrote:
Let me make this more clear: I have never lost to a BA drop list. Ever. Not in 5th. Not in 6th. The one I faced in 7th, I tabled it. Not enough has really changed for them since 5th for it to be viable. Yes, they get a few extra guns, but that's not enough.

In contrast, I have lost to SW drop lists at a high rate. They are just better at it because of how they work.

Thats what I have heard about the Blood Angels, however I feel that they can be successful, just depends on what you decide to run for there units. The reason I have had so much success with the Sentinels of Terra is that unlike most Drop Pod Armies such as BA and Salamanders that make use of Dreadnoughts usually, the Imperial Fists is primary a troop heavy force. Granted Dreadnoughts have there uses, but not many armies in the game can stand up to having 50x to 60x Marines Drop in Turn 1 right in there face. SW I do like, but like I mentioned earlier, sometimes I find it kinda wasteful that running 3x w/Melta wastes the other 7x's chance to do anything that round of shooting, but they do by far have the best Tactical Squad in the game as they can do everything very well.

Martel732 wrote:
Let me make this more clear: I have never lost to a BA drop list. Ever. Not in 5th. Not in 6th. The one I faced in 7th, I tabled it. Not enough has really changed for them since 5th for it to be viable. Yes, they get a few extra guns, but that's not enough.

In contrast, I have lost to SW drop lists at a high rate. They are just better at it because of how they work.

Bit of an ignorant post, I've beaten a three wraithknight list with orks recently, this doesn't makes orks better just meant the eldar player was tactically unless. Like wise I've beaten serpent spam lists with guard loads of times, same again.

I think sw have the better army overall but playing both I've found ba slightly better for pudding. Just my opinion as they fit my play style of loads of pods with mostly 5man teams teams or dread. That and mephiston podded causes havoc

dark_red wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let me make this more clear: I have never lost to a BA drop list. Ever. Not in 5th. Not in 6th. The one I faced in 7th, I tabled it. Not enough has really changed for them since 5th for it to be viable. Yes, they get a few extra guns, but that's not enough.

In contrast, I have lost to SW drop lists at a high rate. They are just better at it because of how they work.

Bit of an ignorant post, I've beaten a three wraithknight list with orks recently, this doesn't makes orks better just meant the eldar player was tactically unless. Like wise I've beaten serpent spam lists with guard loads of times, same again.

I think sw have the better army overall but playing both I've found ba slightly better for pudding. Just my opinion as they fit my play style of loads of pods with mostly 5man teams teams or dread. That and mephiston podded causes havoc

I guess I'm just not getting at all what BA are supposed to be doing better than SW at drop pods. Is the marginal increase in firepower worth turning off the chapter tactic?

I just feel ba fit the specific rolls better where as sw are more of an all rounder so it depends what you want from an army

I always see this game like chess and each unit has it roll On the table. If I want to take a tank out 5man ba assault squad is 115 for three meltas which has a very good chance of taking out a vehicle. To me that's a fair trade and I don't mind if they die But being a small team I can hide them If needs be.
Sw on the other hand you pay much more for the same unit as you need 10 guys but they then have assault capabilities next turn. It's all a trade off and each fits a play style. Just feel ba are more flexible overall with pods. I happily play both so as long as one wins I'm happy

Martel732 wrote:

dark_red wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let me make this more clear: I have never lost to a BA drop list. Ever. Not in 5th. Not in 6th. The one I faced in 7th, I tabled it. Not enough has really changed for them since 5th for it to be viable. Yes, they get a few extra guns, but that's not enough.

In contrast, I have lost to SW drop lists at a high rate. They are just better at it because of how they work.

Bit of an ignorant post, I've beaten a three wraithknight list with orks recently, this doesn't makes orks better just meant the eldar player was tactically unless. Like wise I've beaten serpent spam lists with guard loads of times, same again.

I think sw have the better army overall but playing both I've found ba slightly better for pudding. Just my opinion as they fit my play style of loads of pods with mostly 5man teams teams or dread. That and mephiston podded causes havoc

I guess I'm just not getting at all what BA are supposed to be doing better than SW at drop pods. Is the marginal increase in firepower worth turning off the chapter tactic?

The way I look at it it boils down to what the BA player is fielding. Sure 5x Man Suicide Squads allow you come down and pop a vehicle, but they have a lot of other things going for them that make them to many people serious contenders for being one of the top Drop Pod Armies. To start off:

* Flesh Tearers Formation: Allows you to toake 6x Assault Marine Squads and 4x Tac Squads still in Drop Pods, giving you access to more Pods and more bodies which are crucial in a Drop Pod List.

* Tac Squads come equipped with Heavy Flamers base, which is very nasty against anything that isnt a 3+ armor save, and can be kitted out with even more Flamers or even Plasma giving you a Jack-of-All Trades unit when they come out of the Drop Pod.

* Furioso Dreadnoughts: Can have Frag Cannons or Blood Talons w/a Heavy Flamer and a Meltagun built in, giving you another solid unit both good against Infantry and Anti-Tank.

* Assault Marines seem to be the biggest reason for all of the Blood Angel Hype. Granted they are only equipped with BP's and Chainswords, however they are the only Assault Squad with access to Meltaguns and Inferno Pistols, making them a very useful, cheap anti-tank unit which allows you to use your Tac Squads purely for Anti-Infantry. Plus as mention, the Flesh Tearers FOC makes them even more flexible.

Thats what stands out to me anyways about the Blood Angels and why people like them so much. Plus they are the new "Hot" Army at the moment for Space Marines so that also has to play a factor. I have looked at Space Wolves but the issue I keep running into is on what other units besides Grey Hunters should I run and how would I equip my Grey Hunter Squads, as I am loathe to waste shots, even if they are from regular Bolters. And like dark_red mentioned, BA just overall are more Tacitcally Flexible compared to the SW, which is why I currently am going with the SOT book for my Drop Pod list.

 koooaei wrote:
BTW, Ultramarines with Calgar have proven to be the most effective full droppod army in GT.

*Insert Marneus Calgar Spongebob Squarepants song here*

ODST Vets are quite fun, triple meltaguns/plasma guns with a 2x plasma pistol Sergeant if you want. Cheap cannon fodder with the extra guys. Add in a Demo charge for extra fun. How has this not had many more suggestions?

I have lost 100% of my games against Blood Angels (1 game) and I have never lost a game against Space Wolves (since I haven't played against them) so does that mean that everyone should agree with me and take my experience for truth?

Sisters must be Schrödinger's army. I've simultaneously never lost to them, and never beaten them. They must therefore be both OP and trash at the same time!

On a more serious note, if there was an army I'd never lost to, but played regularly, I think my list would probably change.

I'm still not seeing BA as a good drop list. Someone is going to have to prove it to me. All the bullet points above just seem very meh to me.


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SGTPozy wrote:
I have lost 100% of my games against Blood Angels (1 game) and I have never lost a game against Space Wolves (since I haven't played against them) so does that mean that everyone should agree with me and take my experience for truth?

Okay then, I'll entertain a thought experiment. Explain to me how they are so good and why they should be feared.

It's an Apoc game. FOC or allies doesn't matter. You can bring whatever Ultramarine force you want or imperial fist unit you want and drop pod them. It doesn't matter if it's a SW or BA drop pod. It's apoc!


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Put your dreadnoughts in lucioius pattern drop pods. Drop them turn one, keep them in the drop pod and assault out of it turn two

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still not seeing BA as a good drop list. Someone is going to have to prove it to me. All the bullet points above just seem very meh to me.


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SGTPozy wrote:
I have lost 100% of my games against Blood Angels (1 game) and I have never lost a game against Space Wolves (since I haven't played against them) so does that mean that everyone should agree with me and take my experience for truth?

Okay then, I'll entertain a thought experiment. Explain to me how they are so good and why they should be feared.

Just because you cannot see it it doesn't mean it isn't true. 33 people believe that Blood Angels are the best drop pod list. Just accept that your opinion isn't the dominant opinion.

They are Space Marines+1 when it comes to drop pod lists. That is why they should be feared.
Another point is that half of the armies in the game have an armour save of a 4+ or worse on their basic troop, so heavy flamers on every squad will make back its points 50% of the time in one turn.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still not seeing BA as a good drop list. Someone is going to have to prove it to me. All the bullet points above just seem very meh to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
I have lost 100% of my games against Blood Angels (1 game) and I have never lost a game against Space Wolves (since I haven't played against them) so does that mean that everyone should agree with me and take my experience for truth?

Okay then, I'll entertain a thought experiment. Explain to me how they are so good and why they should be feared.

Just because you cannot see it it doesn't mean it isn't true. 33 people believe that Blood Angels are the best drop pod list. Just accept that your opinion isn't the dominant opinion.

They are Space Marines+1 when it comes to drop pod lists. That is why they should be feared.
Another point is that half of the armies in the game have an armour save of a 4+ or worse on their basic troop, so heavy flamers on every squad will make back its points 50% of the time in one turn.

If it's true then please explain specifically why it's true. Don't just say they are marines +1 for drop lists and not explain why. I still think that there is no list that can be made from C:BA that can't be done better with C:SM or C:SW. Kinda why I don't like the codex much.

There's 26 votes for SW and 26 for Salamanders, so 34 votes is far from a "dominant" opinion.

And to make my previous comment more general let me rephrase it this way. I'd much rather face drop BA than drop SW. I don't understand what drop BA are doing that's so great to make up for turning off their chapter tactics when drop SW gets the most out of theirs.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still not seeing BA as a good drop list. Someone is going to have to prove it to me. All the bullet points above just seem very meh to me.


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SGTPozy wrote:
I have lost 100% of my games against Blood Angels (1 game) and I have never lost a game against Space Wolves (since I haven't played against them) so does that mean that everyone should agree with me and take my experience for truth?

Okay then, I'll entertain a thought experiment. Explain to me how they are so good and why they should be feared.

Just because you cannot see it it doesn't mean it isn't true. 33 people believe that Blood Angels are the best drop pod list. Just accept that your opinion isn't the dominant opinion.

They are Space Marines+1 when it comes to drop pod lists. That is why they should be feared.
Another point is that half of the armies in the game have an armour save of a 4+ or worse on their basic troop, so heavy flamers on every squad will make back its points 50% of the time in one turn.

If it's true then please explain specifically why it's true.

The majority agree so YOU need to discredit the common view that Blood Angel drop pod armies > Space Marine drop pod armies with some facts and information that isn't just from your own experience.


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Dominant = ruling, so yes, yes Blood Angels are dominant.

Because Heavy Flamers, tripple Melta, and en-masse S5 charge threats podding in are all things many armies fear. A lot. And Blood Angels can do all three cheaply and in decent/large numbers. And their special Dreads are just a little extra

The advantages of other Chapters don't add up to those.

Bharring wrote:
Because Heavy Flamers, tripple Melta, and en-masse S5 charge threats podding in are all things many armies fear. A lot. And Blood Angels can do all three cheaply and in decent/large numbers. And their special Dreads are just a little extra

The advantages of other Chapters don't add up to those.

That's it? Okay.

Can't charge from drop pods, and the turn after a drop is usually a massacre for the drop list.

Triple melta is significanlty less reliable than in 6th, and so I'm not sure why non-LR lists are scared of that.

Blood angels can charge out of drop pods after toasting the unit, flamer hits will destroy xeno armies with ease due to ap4 and the fact your basic troops have access to them is silly powerful.

The common view is they are the best, youre entitled to your view of course (though it is wrong as the poll shows). Saying that blood angels arnt good at drop pods is like saying tau arnt good at shooting, or grey knights don't all included 2 dk minimum its just the way they are

Sallies are up there because of their flamer/melta affinities. BAs simply do both better.

Space Wolves offer some competition.
10man Tacs with double Special are better for Melta dropping than 2x 5man Tacs, but 5man ASMs do the same Melta, but for cheaper.

Double special Flamers are OK, but can't compare to heavy flamer/flamer Tacs. And then there are Hand Flamers.

For Melee, against melee armies, SW might kill a few more when charged, but BA will kill more when charging, and have massively better overwatch with more/better flamers. Against generalists or snooty armies, BA are *much* better on the charge.

SW podded Dreads may be better distractions, but I'd think BA dreads would be much better at dakka. I'd call this one a wash.

So, of their two competitors, it dominates the first one (Salamanders - the podding Codex Astartes purists), and is basically the other competitor +1 when Podding (SW, the SM+1 army for furries!).

I don't see how they aren't the best podders.


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If they kill every t4 3+ you pod in t1, after you torched your targets, you probably aren't running a real drop pod army. If you are, they either got lucky, or something is very, very wrong.

Bharring wrote:
Sallies are up there because of their flamer/melta affinities. BAs simply do both better.

Space Wolves offer some competition.
10man Tacs with double Special are better for Melta dropping than 2x 5man Tacs, but 5man ASMs do the same Melta, but for cheaper.

Double special Flamers are OK, but can't compare to heavy flamer/flamer Tacs. And then there are Hand Flamers.

For Melee, against melee armies, SW might kill a few more when charged, but BA will kill more when charging, and have massively better overwatch with more/better flamers. Against generalists or snooty armies, BA are *much* better on the charge.

SW podded Dreads may be better distractions, but I'd think BA dreads would be much better at dakka. I'd call this one a wash.

So, of their two competitors, it dominates the first one (Salamanders - the podding Codex Astartes purists), and is basically the other competitor +1 when Podding (SW, the SM+1 army for furries!).

I don't see how they aren't the best podders.


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If they kill every t4 3+ you pod in t1, after you torched your targets, you probably aren't running a real drop pod army. If you are, they either got lucky, or something is very, very wrong.

They don't have to kill them all. Just cripple the list and in the case of BA, spoiling assaults make the list completely fall apart.


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 total0 wrote:
Blood angels can charge out of drop pods after toasting the unit, flamer hits will destroy xeno armies with ease due to ap4 and the fact your basic troops have access to them is silly powerful.

The common view is they are the best, youre entitled to your view of course (though it is wrong as the poll shows). Saying that blood angels arnt good at drop pods is like saying tau arnt good at shooting, or grey knights don't all included 2 dk minimum its just the way they are

I don't think they are a good drop list. I stand by this. Furious charge is basically wasted in a drop list, as they can NOT charge out of pods. 70+ people voted NOT BA. BA is the plurality vote, but far, far from a majority. It's a very split decision.

They try to spoil assaults, sure. But you, first, get your podded dakka, where you should be crippling the enemy. Then, they have to spoil your assault. Unless they move 12" or more, just walking away from the nearest squad shouldn't be enough. And even if they do, any heavy/etc weapon just moved. So they need to kill enough to keep you back, too. Or enough to not fear an assault. And it doesn't take many BAs to threaten things from most armies.

If they do move 12"+, then it only really helps if they weren't surrounded.

I'm not saying podding is an always-winning strategy. I'm just saying that its not suicide if most of the list pods in. Against lots of pods, there should be plenty of assault threats on turn 2. And that is one more place where BAs simply do podding better.

I haven't seen a list that would be crippled by BA drop dakka in quite a while. That's precisely my point! BA can't cram enough dakka into their drop pods to do enough alpha strike damage. There is almost always going to be enough left alive to shoot the BA out of assault range and/or spoiling assault.

Remember that Serpent Shields in defense mode (yes, it exists!) completely neuters melta drops.

"70+ people voted NOT BA. BA is the plurality vote, but far, far from a majority. It's a very split decision."

so what if 70+ people voted not BA? BA are still winning! Like I've said earlier, Blood Angels ARE the majority as they have the most votes!

You do not compare BA voters with non-BA voters as that is not how it works.

Indeed but 34 people voted for blood angels, so obviously there all wrong and youre right because... Reasons right?

As said you're entitled to your opinion but obviously most disagree with you. Even if they cannon charge they still are excellent at what they do, what do you expect from them if you think they are that bad? I can only think you're using them wrong and hunting t6 models with flamers

 total0 wrote:
Indeed but 34 people voted for blood angels, so obviously there all wrong and youre right because... Reasons right?

As said you're entitled to your opinion but obviously most disagree with you. Even if they cannon charge they still are excellent at what they do, what do you expect from them if you think they are that bad? I can only think you're using them wrong and hunting t6 models with flamers

Most don't disagree with me. 70+ people voted for non-BA. There is no majority.


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SGTPozy wrote:
"70+ people voted NOT BA. BA is the plurality vote, but far, far from a majority. It's a very split decision."

so what if 70+ people voted not BA? BA are still winning! Like I've said earlier, Blood Angels ARE the majority as they have the most votes!

You do not compare BA voters with non-BA voters as that is not how it works.

That's a plurality, not a majority.

34>26 so yes, BA are the majority...


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the greater number.
"in the majority of cases all will go smoothly"
synonyms: larger part/number, greater part/number, major part, best/better part, main part, most, more than half;

That is the definition of majority... So yes, I was right.

.... You don't compare 1 army compared to the collective rest.... You're saying, like on all the other threads that ba are an awful codex yet here we are with them being the best drop pod army so yes they DO disagree with you because they ARE the best.

Please don't derail rail this thread with this woe is me blood angels because you're the only one who thinks it

Let me explain why your 'BA vs everyone else' view is incorrect:

As of 2011, London's White British population was 44.9%, so by your logic White British people are the minority because there are more non-White British people than White British people, but you cannot just combine all of the other responses/ethnicities just to suit your view.

SGTPozy wrote:
34>26 so yes, BA are the majority...

SGTPozy, words have specific meanings. Use them correctly. A majority is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set's elements. Majority means >50%. Period.

Plurality means the largest number of votes received by one candidate (or any proposal in a referendum) out of the entire group of candidates. Who got the most votes, but not necessarily the majority of votes.

Clearly, Blood Angels have the Plurality in this highly scientific poll, but not the majority.

 kronk wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
34>26 so yes, BA are the majority...

SGTPozy, words have specific meanings. Use them correctly. A majority is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set's elements. Majority means >50%. Period.

Plurality means the largest number of votes received by one candidate (or any proposal in a referendum) out of the entire group of candidates. Who got the most votes, but not necessarily the majority of votes.

Clearly, Blood Angels have the Plurality in this highly scientific poll, but not the majority.

You're just using a different definition of the word 'majority'. I've already quoted the definition that I used, so I am correct. How about you quote where you are getting your definition from?

If your argument is 'BA are not the best podding army', saying 'BA podded armies are bad' is only relevant if you're showing them to be bad in a way another podding army is not.

If BAs might get shot off the table after delivering more dakka than another podding army, how does that army either (a) not get shot off the table, or (b) somehow still be better while doing less damage and dying just as fast?

Saying BA podding armies are not the best podding armies because Davu/WK armies beat all podding armies doesn't address the question.

Asked again, in the face of BAs benefits (heavy flamer, hand flamers, triple meltas, etc) how is any other chapter *better* at podding than they are? Which chapter(s)?

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/majority

SGTPozy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
34>26 so yes, BA are the majority...

SGTPozy, words have specific meanings. Use them correctly. A majority is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set's elements. Majority means >50%. Period.

Plurality means the largest number of votes received by one candidate (or any proposal in a referendum) out of the entire group of candidates. Who got the most votes, but not necessarily the majority of votes.

Clearly, Blood Angels have the Plurality in this highly scientific poll, but not the majority.

You're just using a different definition of the word 'majority'. I've already quoted the definition that I used, so I am correct. How about you quote where you are getting your definition from?

5 years of being a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt and using advanced statistics and analytical tools.

(In academia, both stats and political science, Plurality is what we are seeing, not Majority. As such, Abraham Lincoln won the plurality, but not the majority of votes. Outside acadamia, Majority is often used to mean Plurality. See the concept, 'Majority-minority' populations.)

 kronk wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
34>26 so yes, BA are the majority...

SGTPozy, words have specific meanings. Use them correctly. A majority is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set's elements. Majority means >50%. Period.

Plurality means the largest number of votes received by one candidate (or any proposal in a referendum) out of the entire group of candidates. Who got the most votes, but not necessarily the majority of votes.

Clearly, Blood Angels have the Plurality in this highly scientific poll, but not the majority.

You're just using a different definition of the word 'majority'. I've already quoted the definition that I used, so I am correct. How about you quote where you are getting your definition from?

5 years of being a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt and using advanced statistics and analytical tools.

Me too!

Then you should know the difference between Plurality and Majority. You're welcome for the reminder.

Edit: You're 19. Liar.

I think BA has the best drop squads ATM. You can get the pistolier and 2 meltaguns for a grand 4 meltashots for about 150 points. That as well as heavy flamer tacs, and the FnP they can get make them a solid choice.


I mostly say BA though because they can buy a drop pod in FA and through that make the drop assault better by gifting it to some IG vets ETC

Bharring wrote:
(In academia, both stats and political science, Plurality is what we are seeing, not Majority. As such, Abraham Lincoln won the plurality, but not the majority of votes. Outside acadamia, Majority is often used to mean Plurality. See the concept, 'Majority-minority' populations.)

Is a forum for a wargame something that requires academic language? I think not otherwise how would the younger players join in with our jargon-filled conversations?


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 kronk wrote:
Then you should know the difference between Plurality and Majority. You're welcome for the reminder.

Edit: You're 19. Liar.

You got me I'm a black belt in karate, does that count?

SGTPozy wrote:

Bharring wrote:
(In academia, both stats and political science, Plurality is what we are seeing, not Majority. As such, Abraham Lincoln won the plurality, but not the majority of votes. Outside acadamia, Majority is often used to mean Plurality. See the concept, 'Majority-minority' populations.)

Is a forum for a wargame something that requires academic language? I think not otherwise how would the younger players join in with our jargon-filled conversations?

Use hammers until they get it, obviously.

I've got my hammer right here!

Well in this case, they'd get a lesson in Greater vs Greatest.

Then they'd realise the difference between Majority and Plurality.

Then we'd get back to deciding whether the beleif that BAs will always be fail as a drop pod army, right or wrong, necessarily means they aren't the best at it.

Hopefully, then, we'll start discussing who's the best drop pod army.

I think that the poll is pretty conclusive of who's the best (I don't think that Martel likes the answer though).

Bharring wrote:
If your argument is 'BA are not the best podding army', saying 'BA podded armies are bad' is only relevant if you're showing them to be bad in a way another podding army is not.

If BAs might get shot off the table after delivering more dakka than another podding army, how does that army either (a) not get shot off the table, or (b) somehow still be better while doing less damage and dying just as fast?

Saying BA podding armies are not the best podding armies because Davu/WK armies beat all podding armies doesn't address the question.

Asked again, in the face of BAs benefits (heavy flamer, hand flamers, triple meltas, etc) how is any other chapter *better* at podding than they are? Which chapter(s)?

The SWs are far superior against the spoiling assaults. They fare no better against the return fire. Their dakka is very, very comparable. That's why I give them the nod. The spoiling assaults are catastrophic for BA.


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SGTPozy wrote:
I think that the poll is pretty conclusive of who's the best (I don't think that Martel likes the answer though).

I just don't want people to be misinformed. I know how the BA play in 7th. I don't need a poll for that.

"I just don't want people to be misinformed. I know how the BA play in 7th. I don't need a poll for that."

Yet the majority (yes, I will keep using my definition) disagree with you. I highly doubt that the majority (yep, still using it) are misinformed but rather that you are.

SGTPozy wrote:
"I just don't want people to be misinformed. I know how the BA play in 7th. I don't need a poll for that."

Yet the majority (yes, I will keep using my definition) disagree with you. I highly doubt that the majority (yep, still using it) are misinformed but rather that you are.

I'll let people make their own decisions on whether to listen to you or me. The vote is still 2:1 against BA.

The vote is still 11% in Blood Angel's favour so yes, they are winning.

SW are more capable receiving the charge. BAs are more capable when charging. True.

But the opponent gets to pick what to assault. He has some, but much less, say in what gets assaulted.

I think we disagree on how likely it is for a massed podded at to still have some models on the table, and for units that should be just an inch or three away to get out of charge range in one round.

And on the difference in firepower. Might be I love heavy flamers a bit too much.

So, do you see BAs as the #2 podding army? If not, then who?

SGTPozy wrote:
The vote is still 11% in Blood Angel's favour so yes, they are winning.

I'm going to have to defer to Martel in this one, he's definitely one of the more knowledgeable Blood Angels players on this forum, and simply having a "majority" percentage of the forum vote in favour of Blood Angels rather than Space Wolves does not discredit Martel's experience nor insight into the Blood Angels flaws. This is not to say that Blood Angels are bad at drop-podding, its just that Space Wolves have that extra edge that pushes them ahead of the BA in terms of this specific build.

Then why aren't Space Wolves winning the poll? If what you both say is true then wouldn't the poll reflect that?

Bharring wrote:
SW are more capable receiving the charge. BAs are more capable when charging. True.

But the opponent gets to pick what to assault. He has some, but much less, say in what gets assaulted.

I think we disagree on how likely it is for a massed podded at to still have some models on the table, and for units that should be just an inch or three away to get out of charge range in one round.

And on the difference in firepower. Might be I love heavy flamers a bit too much.

So, do you see BAs as the #2 podding army? If not, then who?

There are no Salamanders to my knowledge where I play anymore. Given your analysis of the Salamanders above, I'd have to say the BA are the #2 pod army. There might be a FW chapter I don't know about. If IH could take BA weaponry, I'd give it to them.

And all pod armies have the problem of their own pods getting in the way of each other and disembarking models. I'm really not a fan with BA.


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 Grimskul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The vote is still 11% in Blood Angel's favour so yes, they are winning.

I'm going to have to defer to Martel in this one, he's definitely one of the more knowledgeable Blood Angels players on this forum, and simply having a "majority" percentage of the forum vote in favour of Blood Angels rather than Space Wolves does not discredit Martel's experience nor insight into the Blood Angels flaws. This is not to say that Blood Angels are bad at drop-podding, its just that Space Wolves have that extra edge that pushes them ahead of the BA in terms of this specific build.

I'd feel a lot better about BA drop pod lists with the 6th ed vehicle table. As it stands, a triple melta team has approx a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino or comparable transport. Compare this to a S6/7 spam unit. The melta drop just isn't scary enough.

SGTPozy wrote:
Then why aren't Space Wolves winning the poll? If what you both say is true then wouldn't the poll reflect that?

Just because the "majority" thinks something is true doesn't mean it is. Just like how most people back then used to believe that the sun orbited the earth rather than the other way around and Galileo was imprisoned for saying otherwise. Also in terms of "winning" with BA only having 11% more than SW or Salamanders I think its only a marginal lead, not as much as you seem to claim it to be.

Sanity is not statistical.

You could probably find some easily documented facts for which the average person would assume otherwise, and see overwhelming majorities be wrong.

That said, are Space Wolves really better at podding than BA? Charging SW is a bit scarier than charging BA, but a lot of things can't really charge either. And will die much faster being charged by BA than SW. And this is after BA unleash better shooting.

I suppose SW just haven't done as much when I've faced them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I don't think we disagree by much on this point, Martel. Not even sure I still disagree with you. Just with parts of the arguments)

"Charging SW is a bit scarier than charging BA"

They have triple the attacks. That's more than a "bit".

All this being said, though, I think the same kinds of lists fold to drop lists and the same kinds weather the storm and crush drop lists regardless of who is dropping.

By personal biggeest fear is a drop list that draws assault Orks, Nids, or Chaos Demons. There is literally zero chance I can do enough damage with a BA alpha strike to not get erased on turn two. SW, on the other hand, are right at home.

BA Pod armies are based on Assault Squads.
The problem is that
a) you can't expect for two Meltaguns to actually do what you want
b) the small squad gets shot down rather easily
c) you can get the charge, but by no means can you assume that you're going to get it. The enemy isn't an idiot, he knows that the BA are superior in charge so why would he let you to do it?
You will most likely recieve no benefit from either BSF or FC.

SW has the strenght to withstand the coming firepower much better and have three attacks per model no matter if he charges or gets charged.

BA aren't bad, I just wouldn't and didn't personally vote them to be the best Drop Pod army.
IMO their biggest advantage over the other armies are Fragiosos.

 soomemafia wrote:
BA Pod armies are based on Assault Squads.
The problem is that
a) you can't expect for two Meltaguns to actually do what you want
b) the small squad gets shot down rather easily
c) you can get the charge, but by no means can you assume that you're going to get it. The enemy isn't an idiot, he knows that the BA are superior in charge so why would he let you to do it?
You will most likely recieve no benefit from either BSF or FC.

SW has the strenght to withstand the coming firepower much better and have three attacks per model no matter if he charges or gets charged.

BA aren't bad, I just wouldn't and didn't personally vote them to be the best Drop Pod army.
IMO their biggest advantage over the other armies are Fragiosos.

while I agree with your point when It comes to C generally. However when your drop pods don't scatter (using the right formations of course) then there's a really good chance you can put yourself in a great position to get a charge off almost 100% of the time.

again I go back to my point of the points value of the game being key to this discussion ( the OP did say he was playing 3000) almost anything above 2000 starts to swing it greatly in favor of BA.

1. Turn 1 Charges
2. ASM 4x melta pods
3. 4x flamer Tac squads

and again this includes 3x Stormravens with 3x tac. squads arriving on turn 1 with those pods.

Sub 2000 point games, say 1850-1500 point games I give it to SW

Martel732 wrote:
"Charging SW is a bit scarier than charging BA"

They have triple the attacks. That's more than a "bit".

All this being said, though, I think the same kinds of lists fold to drop lists and the same kinds weather the storm and crush drop lists regardless of who is dropping.

By personal biggeest fear is a drop list that draws assault Orks, Nids, or Chaos Demons. There is literally zero chance I can do enough damage with a BA alpha strike to not get erased on turn two. SW, on the other hand, are right at home.

As you have clearly pointed out it depends on the army you'd vs. I'd argue I'd rather have ba vs orks and Daemons as flamers are magic vs them.

Also why fear charging sw. Last game I played I just rotated my force to get my sang guard to charge the most dangerous looking pod unit, needless to say they all died before having a chance to hit me. The others I just shot at and made sure they couldn't charge me. Just dont charge sw unless your i5 or more resilient than then.

Not all armies have I5 charge on 2+ armor units with power weapons. Change your opponent to a BA list and charge them with the sang guard; the slaughter is even worse.

The difference is that a spoiling assault from practically any unit ruins the BA's day; your opponent doesn't have to be more resilient or I5.

As for Orks and Daemons, I personally find it difficult to bring large numbers of flamers to bear that are spread across many units. At any rate, SW get flamers too, just not as many heavy flamers.

SGTPozy wrote:
Then why aren't Space Wolves winning the poll? If what you both say is true then wouldn't the poll reflect that?

Do you know what a appeal to majority fallacy is? Your entire argument hinges on it, which makes it kind of suck.

Don't worry, it's not even a real majority.

How about we agree both sw and ba are the best depending on what you are facing or what your game plan is. Combined wolf blood wins

dark_red wrote:
How about we agree both sw and ba are the best depending on what you are facing or what your game plan is. Combined wolf blood wins

Fair enough. If it were a poll option, I'd choose it.

I like the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics, with Pedro Cantor's Stenrguard jumping out of drop pods.

Crimson Fists definitely deserve a mention for super Sternies.

IH 6+ FNP helps a little, too.

If you're podding a ton of Tacs, twin linking them t1 with UM can be great. Throw in Tiggy or Calgar if you want, too.

Sallies love their Flamers and Meltas. Which are great for Pods.

Each of these can be quite nice, but I think most agree SW and BA are the two best? With disagreement therein?

(It looks like the majority would probably say BA, as they have the majority between those two, but it isn't a strong majority, and good points are being made on both sides.)

Does that concisely describe the discussion so far?

Yes, it does.

What a surprise, Blood Angels are still winning with 31% of people having the correct opinion

SGTPozy wrote:
What a surprise, Blood Angels are still winning with 31% of people having the correct opinion

Congrats on not being able to refute the points that were made by me, Martel and BlaxicanX regarding the issue of majority fallacy.

"majority fallacy
Strategy error which leads to the mistaken belief that the largest segment of a market is the most lucrative. In reality, however, it may be the least profitable one due to the intense rivalry among a large number of competitors."

It's hardly intense rivalry since BA are far more popular than the next two.

That's BlaxicanX's point addressed.

Ultras is the best. 2 rounds of full twin linked on all tactical is game changing. Reroll snap shots another turn to nape flyers. Then chose to pass or fail any moral check.

 Grimskul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Then why aren't Space Wolves winning the poll? If what you both say is true then wouldn't the poll reflect that?

Just because the "majority" thinks something is true doesn't mean it is. Just like how most people back then used to believe that the sun orbited the earth rather than the other way around and Galileo was imprisoned for saying otherwise. Also in terms of "winning" with BA only having 11% more than SW or Salamanders I think its only a marginal lead, not as much as you seem to claim it to be.

Now your point:

Just because a few 'veterans' believe something it doesn't mean that's true either. Why should I believe Martel and you over the majority of voters?

Martel seems to believe that you combine everything (so all non-BA armies) against the one that someone is arguing for. I showed how idiotic that was with my London population example.

Now on to Martel... What has he said that's relevant (not being rude but I geniunly don't know what I am supposed to address).

Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

For myself, if the other guy was bring pods, I personally would rather it be BA over pretty much anything else.

The thing is, when you know its coming, surviving that turn one alpha strike is manageable. And with BA, once the alpha hits, now, I only have to deal with small squads of guys. This can even be made easier if I have anything that has interceptor as you can make those small squads even smaller before they do anything.

However, with any of the other armies your looking at having to deal with squads of 8-10 guys. Some have a 2+ armor guy in there to tank return fire / assaults.

Its possible that BA might have the stronger inital hit, but come turns 4 - 7, I think the other drop pod armies have a much stronger chance to continue the hurt all game long.

Some of this might also be because back when I played, one of my regular opponents was BA, so I know them pretty well. And BA are just not scary when they don't charge.

 Jayden63 wrote:
For myself, if the other guy was bring pods, I personally would rather it be BA over pretty much anything else.

The thing is, when you know its coming, surviving that turn one alpha strike is manageable. And with BA, once the alpha hits, now, I only have to deal with small squads of guys. This can even be made easier if I have anything that has interceptor as you can make those small squads even smaller before they do anything.

However, with any of the other armies your looking at having to deal with squads of 8-10 guys. Some have a 2+ armor guy in there to tank return fire / assaults.

Its possible that BA might have the stronger inital hit, but come turns 4 - 7, I think the other drop pod armies have a much stronger chance to continue the hurt all game long.

This is my experience against other BA lists as well. That's why I don't do that.

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

I had to respond because I was asked why I hadn't.

I'm aware that certain people disagree with some definitions (eventhouh they are still correct) hence why I only responded when I was asked to as I've given up on convincing certain members since their views will never change.

SGTPozy wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

I had to respond because I was asked why I hadn't.

I'm aware that certain people disagree with some definitions (eventhouh they are still correct) hence why I only responded when I was asked to as I've given up on convincing certain members since their views will never change.

The main issue that me and the others are pointing out is that there isn't an argument from you that isn't based on the polls being edged towards the BA. Its all semantics on definitions rather than real input with regards to how BA are better than Space Wolves. I don't seem to recall you giving us a concrete rebuttle as to how BA are much more suspectible to being charged and countered by charging/shooting enemies after their initial drop (due to lacking the initiative and strength boost from FC since they can't charge after coming in via drop-pod) whereas the Space Wolves have counter-attack and the ability to take CCW on their Grey Hunters so they are more risky and harder to mop up with CC. Both have issues with interceptor and shooting but Space Wolves also have damage soakers that BA lack like Storm-Shield toting Dreadnoughts.

We would be much more receptive to your posts if you did more than keep pointing at the poll numbers and saying "Look I'm right!"

He's not going to give an argument.

Blood Angels because you can take ASM give them 2 meltas, a combi melta and a mb + drop pod for cheaper than any of the other Marines.

I'm going to say Space Wolves over Blood Angels, though I haven't really gamed much this edition, just glancing over the rules the Space Wolves seem much more flexible of an army to go drop podding about. BA seems more like a game of rock-paper-scissors that you'll lose against many (most?) opponents.

I'm obviously not familiar enough with Salamanders because I'm not sure why they have been voted so high?

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

Yeah well I was kinda assuming that calgar is included in this best drop army tactic. Calgar is expensive no doubt - but he gives you so much. In terms of brutishness his sheer CC power is right up there with some of the most beastly units in all armies - and an ap2 storm bolter lol and Relentless for his orbital bombardment. His main value comes from the double doctrine and leadership functions for your whole army. The biggest fall of marine hordes is CC squads hiding in CC with unbreakable marine squads. The ability to chose to fail is huge, if you do and they don't catch you - your whole army can now shoot them. If they catch you, so what! ATSKNF says I don't care. Finally, ATSKNF does something useful for a change. In any case I think the Ultra drop works the best because it gives you the option to TL all heavy and special weapons in your tactical s - so it's kinda like salamanders +1.

Grimskul, that's fair enough then. I haven't provided facts myself because others have done it and I see no need in repeating it. For example LValx has given a reason which I agree with.

Now you Martel, if you have nothing useful to contribute other than personally attacking me, I suggest not posting at all.

I can understand where people are coming from with the Space Wolves, however I have seen 10x man Assault Squads of BA do very well, either equipped with Melta's and Inferno Pistols or Plasma and Flamers. Both have there strengths and weaknesses but again it can boil down to a persons meta or a persons experience with a particular army.

And to Clarify: THIS WAS MADE TO SEE PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHY THEY FEEL THIS PARTICULAR ARMY IS THE BETTER DROP POD ARMY, NOT WHICH ONE IS THE BEST.

Everyone is entitled to there opinions but I agree you can't say that is sucks without an evidence or a valid Argument so I feel thats what people need to understand. Me personally, I think Space Wolves are a good Drop Pod List, but I feel that a lot of there stuff gets wasted, as the only way to get 3x Special Weapons in a Squad of Grey Hunters is to take 10x of them and then upgrade a model to a Wolf Guad for there Sgt. The appeal of the Blood Angels is that yes, they can field 5x man suicide squads of melta with there Assault Marines, but why run them only as 5x man? 10x Man Assault Squads w/Plasma is pretty nasty and I have seen and tested this out while running the Fleash Tearers formation, as you can get 10x Squads of Scoring Units (4x Tactical, 6x Assault) and equip them however you want depending on the opponent.

Or one way to look at it is simply this: SW have the more solid Tactical Squad unit with Grey Hunters, but Blood Angels have a lot more Flexibility with there's. One big factor many people seem to forget is that the more bodies you have in a Drop Pod list, the better off you will be. And between SW and BA, BA will win that one. BA Drop Pod Armies think can have a lot of success, but people need to realize that your not limited to run just 5x man squads with them. They can be equipped for Anti-Tank and Anti-Infantry very easily and I guarantee many opponents wouldn't have enough shooting to take out all of the Assault Squads before being hit in CC.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with other Drop Pod Armies but you can't say that it's BA vs Everyone else, as each Chapter has something different to bring. Currently, most people feel that BA can be a nasty Drop Pod list, and I have tested them out and so far I have done very well with them. SW are a good Drop Pod Army, but I think BA can easily be just as good as they are, just in a different way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm going to say Space Wolves over Blood Angels, though I haven't really gamed much this edition, just glancing over the rules the Space Wolves seem much more flexible of an army to go drop podding about. BA seems more like a game of rock-paper-scissors that you'll lose against many (most?) opponents.

I'm obviously not familiar enough with Salamanders because I'm not sure why they have been voted so high?

Salamanders have Twin-Linked Flamer weapons and with Vulcan as your HQ, you get Twin-Linked Flamers and Melta's, as well as Master Crafted Weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ultras is the best. 2 rounds of full twin linked on all tactical is game changing. Reroll snap shots another turn to nape flyers. Then chose to pass or fail any moral check.

It's taking unnaturally long for a comment "bolters suck, marines suck" to take place. I'm starting to worry.

Bolters do suck, but I think the UM twin link all tactical weapons right?

Correct.

And the rest of your army re-rolls ones.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm going to say Space Wolves over Blood Angels, though I haven't really gamed much this edition, just glancing over the rules the Space Wolves seem much more flexible of an army to go drop podding about. BA seems more like a game of rock-paper-scissors that you'll lose against many (most?) opponents.

I'm obviously not familiar enough with Salamanders because I'm not sure why they have been voted so high?

Salamanders have Twin-Linked Flamer weapons and with Vulcan as your HQ, you get Twin-Linked Flamers and Melta's, as well as Master Crafted Weapons.

I think you mean reroll to wound flamers and mastercrafted meltas with Vulkan? It's better than nothing but I don't really see why it's going to catapult them up to being a great drop pod army.

I think it puts them behind SW and BA by a bit, probably ahead of UM, but not by much. Because Flamers and Meltas are what pod armies care about most.

Sallies are the poster child of droppod lists in the vanilla codex. I think that's why they get votes.

 koooaei wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ultras is the best. 2 rounds of full twin linked on all tactical is game changing. Reroll snap shots another turn to nape flyers. Then chose to pass or fail any moral check.

It's taking unnaturally long for a comment "bolters suck, marines suck" to take place. I'm starting to worry.

Marines do suck but hordes of marines on your face turn 1 is not that bad. Alpha strike with something like 5-6 pods turn 1 and a lot of viable top tier armies get wrecked in the process - you can hit draigo star before they get spells off. Kill several hive tyrants on the ground. Kill several knights turn 1. Alpha hits like these are almost auto win turn 1. Ofc they can go badly but the ability to focus your entire army exactly where you want it without any chance of counter attack is pretty dang hard to beat.

Then why isn't the bat reps across the net filled with reports of round two tableings by BA drop pods if they are all that. I play drop pods and ill be first to say the alpha strike is kinda fun, but you won't win many games if that is all your focused on. Turns 2-5 are probably more important.

I got bored of reading the arguments for and against specific terminology, so if I've missed some points addressed in this thread i apologise.

I believe Blood angels are one of the better options because they are small squads with multiple specials.

My reasoning, it is easier to get a small squad where you want them, they are less of a concern when they die, and numerous small targets is difficult for target priority.

Tau (possibly the undisputed kings of intercept) can have intercept on most units due to it being a 5 point upgrade, however even they would simply not have enough interceptor to stop that many units (assuming no list tailoring).

I would say the average is about 2-3 units intercepting in any army.
This leaves your 10+ 5 man squads of BA in a good position. Not only are they cheap enough that losing them isn't the end of the world, but you have reserves to fill in for the ones that do get killed.

I fail to see how Space Wolves bring anything new to the party here. Yes they can receive a charge better in terms of attacks but BA have the advantage here too.
more small squads encourages the opponent to make disordered charges to get both squads. This means more overwatch and also puts you back on an even playing field.
Even if this isn't the case the unit assaulting will take more overwatch hits from flamers (where applicable) and may kill the unit outright leaving them vulnerable to return fire.

In the space wolf argument it was posed that a 10 man squad is better, i personally disagree. This game is, as we're so often reminded, a shooting game, therefore a protracted melee is not always a preference.

Still to each their own, i see the flaw in lots of small squads too.

I think Ultras are the best in a lot of terms but Calgar costs so much it skews their capability.

If i had to rate them at 1500 points it would be:
1. BA - tons of specials, loads of targets, redundancies covered.
2. SW - good specials and counter attack
3. Sal - good specials (TL)
4. UM - awesome tactics and beat-stick.

Those BA squads are really easy to mop up after they drop, however. The BA aren't THAT cheap. And you run out of reserves quickly when you aren't doing any damage back to your foes. BA alpha strike damage is not so great as to ensure that they won't be wiped out in future turns. That's why I don't think BA drop lists are that strong compared to SW, much less in the spectrum of all possible lists.

Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

Martel732 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

I don't know how to respond to this.
There are several concepts here that totally throw me.
1) that 2-3 meltas can't reliably pop a rhino - I'm sure I've done so a number of times with 1. Still varagies of fate I suppose but assuming you drop in and move, you're likely to be in melta range. Is it just BA that have this issue? SW and Sallies seem fine.
2) the idea that an army across the table with intervening terrain it more threatening than an army that it in optimal range for its weapons and mostly in 12" of you - I understand foot slogging across the table can be an issue but all guns in your face unmolested is pretty heavy.
3) you state assaulting a space wolf pod list is bad then state something that sounds like you do it (although I may be misinterpreting you)
4) you play BA and have to cross the table when in this thread it's clear BA are rated as a good pod army by many people.

All this said I'm happy for you to believe whatever, it's your game dude. Just some observations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, I totally got sucked into this discussion. I don't like arguing with single people on their opinion. It is after all your opinion.

"that 2-3 meltas can't reliably pop a rhino - I'm sure I've done so a number of times with 1"

This is a math problem. Work it out. The odds are about 50/50 for 3 BS 4 meltas.

" the idea that an army across the table with intervening terrain it more threatening than an army that it in optimal range for its weapons and mostly in 12" of you - I understand foot slogging across the table can be an issue but all guns in your face unmolested is pretty heavy. "

The marines simply don't have enough guns. The Xenos do. Again, math. Also, getting within optimal range of YOUR guns puts you within optimal range of MY guns. And, I can assault you on my turn. You can't assault me after deep strike. The Xenos burn down meq lists from well outside the optimal range of marine guns.

As for SW, there is a very short list of units that can assault GH and win. The list for assaulting BA tacs and ASM is much, much longer.

I don't play pods because the players in my meta are mainly from 5th and all have extensive experience against pods. Additionally, pods backfire quite a bit in a TAC environment. One might draw a Nid list, or assault Orks, or Khorne marines. I find hybrid mech backfires less frequently, but is still an uphill battle for BA.

" I don't like arguing with single people on their opinion. It is after all your opinion."

It never hurts to ask people to justify their opinion. Otherwise, they are just spewing hot air. Please let me know if you need a more detailed justification. To be more specific, this quote: " I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on" is a critical assumption in your argument. I think you are vastly overestimating how much firepower the BA can actually bring to bear in a drop list. And underestimating the retaliation turn of your opponent.

@martel -- I think it would be foolish to stick melta in 13 pods. The melta pods are really there to take on targets like Knights. There are also Fragiosos with heavy flamers, DC dreads, and Tac with flamer sergeants and heavy flamers. And of course, you can take plasma.

Also, it depends on how many points you're playing with. At 3,500+, that null deploy T1 alpha charge from drop can be unsurmountable for certain enemies.

I'm not really advocating for Blood Angels (as I said earlier, I'd probably give it to SW, if I didn't like BA models more ); I'm just saying, there's more to it than melta ASM.

 Talys wrote:
@martel -- I think it would be foolish to stick melta in 13 pods. The melta pods are really there to take on targets like Knights. There are also Fragiosos with heavy flamers, DC dreads, and Tac with flamer sergeants and heavy flamers. And of course, you can take plasma.

Also, it depends on how many points you're playing with. At 3,500+, that null deploy T1 alpha charge from drop can be unsurmountable for certain enemies.

I'm not really advocating for Blood Angels (as I said earlier, I'd probably give it to SW, if I didn't like BA models more ); I'm just saying, there's more to it than melta ASM.

All those flamer templates are useless against units that are meched up or standing behind mech. Initial set up is critical against a drop list. 3,500+ pts completely changes the complexion of the game, I agree. But you also run into the problem even more of your own pods getting in your way.

Martel732 wrote:

All those flamer templates are useless against units that are meched up or standing behind mech. Initial set up is critical against a drop list. 3,500+ pts completely changes the complexion of the game, I agree. But you also run into the problem even more of your own pods getting in your way.

I don't disagree at all. However, the drop pod army has the advantage of choosing the attack strategy after the non-pod army has deployed. If there is bubblewrap, hose it down first with flamer/frag, then assault (or melta) the mech. If they're in armor or behind, assault the vehicle, then hose down afterwards. Obviously, there are cases where it's inefficient to use a pod to assault, so the person who does that is just not a very good commander It doesn't make sense to take 2 drop pods to kill 1 troop in a rhino, right?

More intelligently: don't go all in; squat objectives with your some of your pods, and send in just a couple to take out the threats which you are confident you can gain a strategic advantage, or destroy more points than you'll lose. In many cases, squatting objectives forces your enemy to blow a turn doing nothing more than moving around to kill pods, because otherwise, they'll never catch up in points. It doesn't even tie up your ASM; just ditch the pod. Plus, it makes it so they have to move things, sometimes into non-optimal positions, and then your T2 drops can wreak some havoc.

Depending on your adversary (if they are weak in skyfire), you can use a Stormraven just to block LOS to the pod, too. In my opinion, the whole idea of a successful drop army is to be the one controlling the tempo and dictating where and when battles are fought.

You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

Martel732 wrote:
You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

Well there is that formation

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

Well there is that formation

I guess. But it takes away of lot of options for the list unless the game is very, very large.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

I was referring to Angel's fury (and augur triangulation), on large enough games where you can abuse this with pods. (also, remember, I mentioned 3500+ -- I also mentioned that BA specials scaled well in an earlier post on this thread)

Ravens are a great way to prevent knights from gaining LOS to drop pods -- especially if your opponent doesn't have FW castigators. Also, where there is meaningful terrain and depending on the setup, stormravens can be very useful obstacles (either to movement or LOS). It's just something perhaps unexpected that you can do to force your opponent to reposition, perhaps into a trap of yours.

I wasn't suggesting that these are I Win strategies -- just pointing out that just because you have drop pods and specials that encourage drop/assault doesn't mean that a player should be uncreative and just do that. There many ways drop pods can ruin someone's day other than melts spam... That's all.

3500 points changes the game immensely. The game just doesn't play the same. The table is bigger, the super heavies more numerious, etc. But at 1500 points you just don't have the points to make some of these special formations even work. As such the base rules, tactics, etc of the codex need to shine. And in that regard I just don't see BA as the drop pod list that has the staying power to win out.

 Jayden63 wrote:
3500 points changes the game immensely. The game just doesn't play the same. The table is bigger, the super heavies more numerious, etc. But at 1500 points you just don't have the points to make some of these special formations even work. As such the base rules, tactics, etc of the codex need to shine. And in that regard I just don't see BA as the drop pod list that has the staying power to win out.

I agree completely. Hence, my original comment that the poll question is difficult without knowing what size of army, and whether "drop pod army" meant a homogenous, drop-pod only army, or if it meant an army that just had a large number of drop pods.

Obviously, Angel's Fury doesn't work for a 1500 points and under drop pod army, since you'd only have 2-3 drop pods

The purpose of this post isn't about running drop pods in Apocalypse Size games. It was because I decided to Run a Drop Pod list that the debate occurred, nothing on the point value. Purpose was to just see people's opinions on which drop pod list they like the best or which one is the most competitive and there reasons why they think or like it the best.

Thank you, Ironwolf, for starting this thread. 3-4 pages of discussion, where I learned quite a bit!

[qu cote=B harring 640138 7693671 null]Thank you, Ironwolf, for starting this thread. 3-4 pages of discussion, where I learned quite a bit!

I can still get more out of a SW drop list than a BA drop list, though, I think. BA are #2, but sacrificing the chapter tactic really stinks.

Since Blood Angels are clearly #1, who is #2?

I'd say Salamanders personally as whilst Space Wolves are decent, they don't have TL flamers and free master crafted an shenanigans.

30k Legion with Orbital assault rite of war. Everybody that gets a rhino as a transport, instead gets a drop pod. If it cant deploy by deepstrike, you cannot bring it. This RoW allows terminators to deepstrike.

Hello 2 ten man tac squads for 185 points each, and 4 support squads with meltas, plasma, flamers, volkite or rotary cannon. 5 man melta squads in a drop pods are 185 points if memory serves. 5 man plasma squads 210, and my personal favorite terminator squad killer 10 flamer guys in a drop pod for 210. Throw in a Praetor, a term squad escort, a fire raptor and Lightning, a Mortis Contemptor in a dreadclaw and there you go.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are not a good drop list. I really wish this misconception would die. The BA chapter tactic is furious charge. The BA want to charge at close range. Drop pods turn off our chapter tactic. Furthermore, 3X BS melta shots are NOT that reliable anymore.

Uh, what?

Their chapter tactic, for the purpose of a drop pod list, is access to better wargear in Tactical and Assault squads, which are what you're drop-podding in. Tactical squads with heavy flamers. Assault Squads with plasma or melta guns, and two of them.

Any squad left unengaged and not dead still gets to benefit from that Furious Charge on the next turn.

Also, Furioso Dreads with a heavy flamer fist and the frag launcher is better than most dreads you can drop-pod in if you want to go that route.

Seriously, try out a drop pod list where you bring a bunch of Heavy Flamer tactical squads. I actually prefer sticking a melta gun as the special weapon in said squads, so you can combat squad and have a few chances at chunking some armor. It's really efficient. Biggest weakness of Heavy Flamers normally is their lack of being able to get where you want them to go, but drop pods fix that issue, and it's a LOT cheaper bringing tac marines over sternguard.

I still have to go with Iron Hands. Being able to take a Master of the Forge and get 6 AV 13 (front/side) Dreads with IWND all coming in via drop-pod is terrifying. Give them Assault Launchers and two Heavy Flamers and even hoard armies will fall apart. Couple that with late-dropping Tac squads with FNP that go onto objectives later in the game and you're set.

Few people have enough melta to deal with that much AV 13.

I voted Iron Hands

I've structured my Sons of Medusa around the use of Drop Pods and aerial units. Pods bring in Tactical Marines, Sternguard, and a Dreadnought while Storm Talons and a Storm Raven provide fire support elsewhere. Plus the Storm Raven can bring in a second dread and transport a squad as well for greater mobility. Having IWND is great for that sort of usage and the Raukaan supplement has a few solid items that allow their HQs to project leadership and other bonuses across a wide bubble, a bubble that would be cut short if I were just playing them as a gun line.

Also I played against a Deathwing army once and it was the funniest game I've ever had. Between his deep striking and my drop podding combined with our scatters we had units flying all over the board. Both of us were absolutely rolling by turn 2.

 SRSFACE wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are not a good drop list. I really wish this misconception would die. The BA chapter tactic is furious charge. The BA want to charge at close range. Drop pods turn off our chapter tactic. Furthermore, 3X BS melta shots are NOT that reliable anymore.

Uh, what?

Their chapter tactic, for the purpose of a drop pod list, is access to better wargear in Tactical and Assault squads, which are what you're drop-podding in. Tactical squads with heavy flamers. Assault Squads with plasma or melta guns, and two of them.

Any squad left unengaged and not dead still gets to benefit from that Furious Charge on the next turn.

Also, Furioso Dreads with a heavy flamer fist and the frag launcher is better than most dreads you can drop-pod in if you want to go that route.

Seriously, try out a drop pod list where you bring a bunch of Heavy Flamer tactical squads. I actually prefer sticking a melta gun as the special weapon in said squads, so you can combat squad and have a few chances at chunking some armor. It's really efficient. Biggest weakness of Heavy Flamers normally is their lack of being able to get where you want them to go, but drop pods fix that issue, and it's a LOT cheaper bringing tac marines over sternguard.

Heavy flamers are useless against meched up opponents.

BA chapter tactix actually helps a lot here. Furious charge allows them to remain a better threat the next turn forcing your opponent to either charge them or kill to a man. Cause even 1-2 marines with 3 s5 attacks on the charge can be enough to sweep a non-mellee-oriented squad or wreck a vehicle.

Martel732 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

I think the rhino thing is a meta-issue. I haven't seen a well-performing competitive list with multiple rhinos in a couple editions. Kind of a prey-migration thing. Their predators have become too numerous and dwindled the rhino population, so I just can't see myself having a problem with a rhino with a pod list. I generally do half the pods as flamers, and half as melta. So flamers don't start coming in until I've had a chance to de-mech their dudes.

Another thing to remember is that flyers are popular, so not all of their army will be on the table on t1 to hit you back. Two of the lists I played against at the last itc tourney had 3 and 4 flyers respectively. Not only was their initial deployment too small to immediately kill a mere two pods worth of guys (I was only running 4 and not a full pod list,) but there's another upshot:

Flyers have an absolute pain of a time killing a drop pod/podded guys in their own deployment zone.

If I had been running a fleshtearers detachment pod spam list against the opponents I drew, I think things would've been a lot more in my favor. Probably would've still lost to taudar guy, but that's just too big of a fish for the BA fishing pole.

Went off on a tangent, but after reconsideration I'd say the 5 man 2 specials plus sarge weapon(s) with fragiosos, heavy flamer tacs, and furious charge if the opponent dares to leave any marines alive puts BA on top overall.

Both myself and opponents have a lot of trouble getting charges off after a drop. The squads get shredded.


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niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

I think the rhino thing is a meta-issue. I haven't seen a well-performing competitive list with multiple rhinos in a couple editions. Kind of a prey-migration thing. Their predators have become too numerous and dwindled the rhino population, so I just can't see myself having a problem with a rhino with a pod list. I generally do half the pods as flamers, and half as melta. So flamers don't start coming in until I've had a chance to de-mech their dudes.

Another thing to remember is that flyers are popular, so not all of their army will be on the table on t1 to hit you back. Two of the lists I played against at the last itc tourney had 3 and 4 flyers respectively. Not only was their initial deployment too small to immediately kill a mere two pods worth of guys (I was only running 4 and not a full pod list,) but there's another upshot:

Flyers have an absolute pain of a time killing a drop pod/podded guys in their own deployment zone.

If I had been running a fleshtearers detachment pod spam list against the opponents I drew, I think things would've been a lot more in my favor. Probably would've still lost to taudar guy, but that's just too big of a fish for the BA fishing pole.

Went off on a tangent, but after reconsideration I'd say the 5 man 2 specials plus sarge weapon(s) with fragiosos, heavy flamer tacs, and furious charge if the opponent dares to leave any marines alive puts BA on top overall.

I've been starting with my entire list on the table in 7th. Fliers have really fallen out of favor where I'm playing. Maybe that's the difference. The Rhino can be any cheap transport in my example.

I'm aware lol, however this is only for 40k armies. I was tempted to include 30k, however considering that not many people play it at this time I was more focused on the 40 k space marine armies in this regard. That being said, to those who play Space Wolves, what would be a good drop pod list? I could use an example because in all honesty I'm not sure what would be the best route for them to go in that regard. Do you run terminators, long fangs, a frost wolf, or any other different units besides Grey Hunters?

Martel732 wrote:


Heavy flamers are useless against meched up opponents.

No they're not. While they're not fantastic they're far from useless.

In the case of Blood Angels you can throw a Heavy Flamer in a squad and back it up with a Meltagun to give them some solid, all around potential regardless of your opponent. Add in a Combi-Flamer or Inferno pistol on the Sergeant and you're even better off. So if you drop in, scatter, and end up next to an enemy tank you can punch some holes in it or if you land next to a squad of infantry you're still good. Plus have you ever seen what Heavy Flamers can do to open topped vehicles? Sure it might leave the vehicle itself unscathed but anything inside isn't getting out unharmed. And if we're talking Dark Eldar then you've got a chance to ruin raiders as well as the units within.

In the case of Dreadnoughts, for anyone that can take them really, Heavy Flamers are still a fantastic option when Drop Podding because of their defensive use. You can position a Dread to negate return fire by using the pod as cover but there's plenty of armies that will happily charge a dreadnought, if not to kill it then to tie it up. A quick D3 from a Heavy Flamer OR TWO can thin things out enough to tip things in the Dread's favor.

5 man squads can't have heavy and special weapons. Or do you mean 10-man squads?

I still maintain that the BA can't cause enough damage to not be eviscerated the next turn. Unless, of course, your opponent has a lot of reserves, in which case, any drop list is pretty much a hard counter. I'll stick with SW, who are largely immune to counter-assaults. I can't help but think that these games where BA drop pods are doing well are because of opponents setting up very poorly or having a lot of reserves. I don't fear drop BA at all in a mirror match. To me, they're begging to be tabled.

yeah...those dang ultra marines placing in grand tournaments right now with drop pod lists getting only 8% of votes. LOL.

Didn't see Adepticon results, but highest LVO marines were IH/BA, but that was MSU boltgun spam, not pod spam. IIRC, most of the top-10 armies that were Marines (4?) were each different chapters.

UM places well with CentStar using Tiggy, which can't pod unless you include BA or SW anyways.

The last time I remember seeing a UM pod list do well was MSU tac spam in mostly pods pre-SW/BA update.

(How was Adepticon spread around the top 10? All I saw was top place was demons)

I don't know about best, But I get loads of amusement from my Ork drop pod

Ultramarines with pods I can see wing pretty good. I voted for salamanders due to nostalgia and the fact they are the best with close up weapons, but...

Then again, the idea in my head requires an allied pod of some kind to put the centurions in with Tigurius. Minimum tactical squads with melta/combi melta. Maybe a suicide command squad with meltas.

Maybe blood Angels, get a heavy flamer/flamer tac squad, an he that boosts warp charges, and a fa pod. Or wolves, for the fa pod. Double special grey hunters and a stormwolf/fang/whatever.

Maybe I'll look up these ultramarine pod lists. Not that I'm likely to run one, because building pods properly requires sacrificing children to satan.

Edit: forget centurions, playing around in battlescribe has seen some half decent lists.

Does anyone hae an example of a tournament ultramarines/Calgar drop list? A link or something would be appreciated.