Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!
I basically play them because I like 4*Deep Striking meltas and their models (both old and new), and because I neededn a force disciplined enough to be at the orders of an Inquisitorial conclave who want to fight the notoriously untrustworthy deathwing.

I've been talking about them with a friend, who basically considers them useless space marine wannabees who have no place in 40k :(
I'll admit that their recent codex undermined their "Inquisitorial" aspect a bit, although it is still very possible; and did tone up the grimdark in their formation process (although I do find it reasonable enough for troops who will accompany Inquisitors around and fight daemonhosts and stuff like those guys in Eisenhorn). However, I still love them.
Any chance of some counterarguments?

The guys who accompanied Eisenhorn into fighting Cherubael(or so he thought) in the second novel?

They weren't Tempestus. They were Kasrkin, Cadia's version of Stormtroopers.
Tempestus do an awful job of representing the Kasrkin as well.

Same difference, really, its just their planet of origin that changes.

Scions are pretty cool, but their codex is ass :(

Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Same difference, really, its just their planet of origin that changes.

It's really not.

The descriptions we have of Kasrkin is less of the "Special Operations" bend that the Scions/standard Stormtroopers were famed for. It's also been the case that the Kasrkin aren't really looked at with jealousy or the whole "toy soldiers" angle that the Scions/Stormtroopers have been described as.

Kasrkin have been described as what amounts to heavy infantry and taking up the role of anchoring battle lines or serving as bodyguards for commanders in the thick of it during combat.

Give "Gunheads" a good read, or the Eisenhorn series, or "Cadian Blood" and you'll see what I'm referring to.

Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

So much this.

What a silly idea and execution of a codex.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Same difference, really, its just their planet of origin that changes.

It's really not.

The descriptions we have of Kasrkin is less of the "Special Operations" bend that the Scions/standard Stormtroopers were famed for. It's also been the case that the Kasrkin aren't really looked at with jealousy or the whole "toy soldiers" angle that the Scions/Stormtroopers have been described as.

Kasrkin have been described as what amounts to heavy infantry and taking up the role of anchoring battle lines or serving as bodyguards for commanders in the thick of it during combat.

Give "Gunheads" a good read, or the Eisenhorn series, or "Cadian Blood" and you'll see what I'm referring to.

Been there, done that, someone mistakes the Kasrkins for Stormtroopers in Cadian Blood

They really should just be in Codex:Minor imperial factions along with inquisiton, ass and thew new ad mec stuff.

 Desubot wrote:
They really should just be in Codex:Minor imperial factions along with inquisiton, ass and thew new ad mec stuff.

I'd be okay with this.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!

Beep Beep Get in the Jeep, fellow Loyalist!

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

The Taurox is a decent idea, just that the model is godawful. But the Imperial Guard could use a special IFV that's amphibious and actually has suspension unlike the Chimera.

I like everything about the rox except the wheels. but now vic and zing both have pretty decent conversion kits.

I think Scions themselves are cool, since they're really just the Stormtroopers of old with a cheesy new name that GW feels it has better ownership of.

Their codex, on the other hand, is grade A trash. It's the IG codex with a fourth of the units, a couple of formations, and the same price.

I'm going to take out the Tech Marines, Master of the Forge, Thunderfire cannon and Rhino and put them all in a new codex while still keeping them in the old dex...while charging $50 for the new book.

 Lobukia wrote:
Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

Well I'm glad that you think I shouldn't be allowed to have fun by allying LotD to my guard force. You've opened my eyes to how having that sort of fun is just wrong.

Not interested in the fluff, but they are an army without power units or overpowered weapons to abuse. They have no armour above AV11. You are going to use the Command Squads and never the LC, so your only Warlord choice is 2W T3 with no Invul save. Your units are never going to win on the table through the power of your list. You are only going to win if you, the player, can outwit and outplay your opponent by taking advantage of your deployment options, speed, and flexibility.

Playing MT lets you enjoy challenge, tactics, originality and innovation. There's no "winning formula" for copycats to latch onto. You will never be one of those guys pushing AdLance across the table. Plus it's always fun, either winning or losing, squeezing as much performance as possible out of a codex which gets so much disrespect. Basically you are punking trash-talkers every time you win.

What's not cool about that?

Here is how I would sell Tempestus Scions to others:

1) Tempestus Scions are unique amongst IoM armies because they are the only ones who offer great Glass Hammer style of play which is both challenging and rewarding. Their vehicule are fast, well armed and fragile. Scions themselves are great for Deep Strike deployement, have powerful yet specilised weapons have a low resistence overall, but reliable on the offensive.

2) They have access to unique orders allowing them to improve their specialised weapons for their task without beeing has random than psychic powers.

3) In term of model design, they have excellent models with a lot of possible conversion, kit bashing and options. They have a definite Science Fiction theme, yet still have little bit of gothic/fantasy design in them, but much less than Space Marines for exemple.

4) Their fluff makes them dehumanised elite soldiers raised and trained much like Space Marines (if not in a even more brutal and competitive environment) yet with a little more sexual diversity and option for more hidden humanity for they never transcendated their human nature. You can have the perfect souless killing machine side by side with the elite soldiers plagued by memories of a distant more peaceful life who tries to retain his sanity or the perfect imperial servant who will do anything for mankind.

The current codex offer good options for small scale armies (500 to 1000 points). Of course, has it his currently, it's not enough for anything more than that. But it's not impossible to see them leave the Imperial Guard codex completly and gain a few options unique to them like special snipers, light vehicule squadron like Tauros engines, their own flyer, boarding teams and commandos or mobile stealth generator. I like to see them like gestalting team that may grow with time.

Scions are the only 'umies I would ever consider playing. They look dead 'ard.

 God In Action wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

Well I'm glad that you think I shouldn't be allowed to have fun by allying LotD to my guard force. You've opened my eyes to how having that sort of fun is just wrong.

Right, cause making every IoM unit its own codex, so you can ally it into your guard is good game design.

....or they could just make a formation that allows 1 elite from an IoM to join another IoM force (or some similar mechanic). By your snide reasoning, if I think its "fun" to make a "Codex: Centurion" so my Sisters can have three follow them around, than someone else is impeding on my fun if they point out how silly that is?

...or just pay the HQ/Troop tax like everyone else for their allies

No need to separate, just roll em into guard and inquisition.

And bring back old Karskin models!

 Lobukia wrote:

 God In Action wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Pointless codex, never should have existed (along with legion of the damned codex and IK)

Any codex that has units still in another valid codex is silly. IK should just be an IoM LoW.

Well I'm glad that you think I shouldn't be allowed to have fun by allying LotD to my guard force. You've opened my eyes to how having that sort of fun is just wrong.

Right, cause making every IoM unit its own codex, so you can ally it into your guard is good game design.

....or they could just make a formation that allows 1 elite from an IoM to join another IoM force (or some similar mechanic). By your snide reasoning, if I think its "fun" to make a "Codex: Centurion" so my Sisters can have three follow them around, than someone else is impeding on my fun if they point out how silly that is?

...or just pay the HQ/Troop tax like everyone else for their allies

Of course that already does exist with unbound, but sure if you want to run 3 centurions with your army, that's your fun and sure won't complain about it. Sure, LoTD could also have been a formation, I wouldn't care either way. But don't ignore the obvious fact that it is perfectly within the fluff to have lone LotD squads turning up at an IoM force's party, since that's exactly how they operate. Conclusion: if that's fun for someone, then yes it is fun, and Unbound exists for it. I am glad that I can have a Battleforged army though, especially since it fits the fluff to ally a LoTD to Guard.

None of that means you can't criticize the book for being hilariously over priced for incredibly little content. Rules for a squad and some recycled fluff and pictures for $50 when a single line in Codex Space Marines could have done the exact same thing is pretty pointless if you ask me.

 Accolade wrote:
I think Scions themselves are cool, since they're really just the Stormtroopers of old with a cheesy new name that GW feels it has better ownership of.

Their codex, on the other hand, is grade A trash. It's the IG codex with a fourth of the units, a couple of formations, and the same price.

And yet, still, it has way more substantive content than Codex Imperial Knights How did they pull that off?!

I think the problem like a lot of people mentioned is that it is a poorly designed codex. It isn't a bad thing to separate and flesh out armies, but Stormtroopers were a test bed and GW ended up crapping that testbed with it. Stormtroopers like Ad Mech or Assassins are factions a lot people wanted to see and be able to play on their own so this pissed people off even more than normal.

One of the biggest mistakes is the way their theme is out of place with standard IG. If you are an IG player, the main appeal is fielding a quasi historical army or just regular humans within the future 40k setting. Scions are needlessly blingy and resemble wanna be space marines in style. As already mentioned the fluff is poor as well.

The models still do look pretty good and even the short bus can be converted with better wheels to look okay. However, the rules are bad. They were blatantly nerffed and left at a high price. There are a lot of options in the codex that don't really help or make sense. Some of the problems were inherited from mistakes in the IG core book. However, why are my Stormtrooper HQ choices so weak compared to a regular company commander? Why do they only get one order and no refractor field? Why is their leadership so low? Why can't they take a Vendetta as a dedicated transport? None of this makes any sense rules wise or in fluff.

Worse off they can't function as a competitive stand alone army. The formations they have are so poor and don't utilize the fluff and instead focus on making me buy more Valkyries and Taurox.

You couldn't even buy the stupid codex forever without going onto lame itunes. The book itself really just needs to be redone. Right now they are really just a shadow of what they should be.

nedTCM wrote:
I think the problem like a lot of people mentioned is that it is a poorly designed codex. It isn't a bad thing to separate and flesh out armies, but Stormtroopers were a test bed and GW ended up crapping that testbed with it. Stormtroopers like Ad Mech or Assassins are factions a lot people wanted to see and be able to play on their own so this pissed people off even more than normal.

I totally agree with this sentiment. On the other hand, I simply photocopied the important pages from a friend that loves IG, so I can't really complain too much. The mini-dexes would be fine if they were softcover and $20; but being full priced hardcovers makes them hard to swallow.

Storm troopers aren't a bad idea, they just shouldn't have been their own codex and the Taurox is a god damned ugly pile of excrement. A storm trooper list should have just been an optional extra of the main guard codex, a 1 page "you can build an elite force, limited to these units, have access to this extra unit or two, and gain these special rules". Did not need to be its own codex.

Any unit worth a damn probably only shaves when the commissar inspects and routinely trash-talks the Schola to help salvage the poor FNGs that live through training to make it to the unit, like every military everywhere. Agree with the test bed angle, it looks to me like the same writers on AdMech from reading the unit descriptions.

The codex needed a proper gun truck with wheels, a cheap open-topped Hilux equivalent to ride around in, a Kiowa equivalent rather than the Valk to reward close support and some kind of Vector Striking UAV that buffs the troops and get about 2 missiles as a "Finger of God" attack. War has changed a lot since the 80's, some kind of force that represents modern irregular warfare was an enormous missed opportunity for GW.

I still like the Scions though, and homebrew makes them a lot more fun.

Which army is the cheapest, that can bring the most number of Deep Striking suicide Melta / Plasma, and is Objective Scoring?

Scions.

Helldivers as they should be.

I feel that if they decide to push forward with them more units and relics table are a must perhaps a battalion commander as an hq unit or something to that affect as an alternative to the lc or the pcs.

This army really needs to build up and out but it's not that bad it's really ment as an ally codex to compliment another army like I could see them doing well paired with grey knights or blood angels. Heck they have solid synergy with dark angels and offer an alternative to generic marines everyone who owns that codex seems to think are the second thing to blasphemy to ever do (because reasons)

Imperial knights are fine I don't get why people rag on them the paperwork is already down for the next codex for them and it will be awesome once the models get pushed up and out from forgeworld to mainstream plastic. (which the mechanics will be the testbed for).

And I think that admech will join this roster and be pretty cool as well I could see them replacing many units in other lineups as an allied detachment. And still have several tools to handle themselves. Heck I could see tempestus with admech being pretty beast mode because the scions can't stand and fight and are very mobile while the admech can dig in really well and are hopelessly immobile. The yang to the scion ying if you will.

That Taurox looks like Postman Pats van...

More to the point... I don't know anything about Imperial Guard, just think they have cool minis, I'm looking at you Marbo, and I know that one day, but not today, I'd like to build and play me some IG. So for me to read this thread was kind of a letdown. They replaced Storm Troopers with Scions? Kind of makes both those new codices lose their appeal for me.

I like the Taurox with the wheel conversion kits from third party companies.
Plus mentioning that will hopefully encourage more people to do that and sell me the track assemblies

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

If that is the way op wants to enjoy the game you should not force your opinions or thoughts on the game on them. Let them enjoy what they enjoy.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

So much this.
What a silly idea and execution of a codex.

I cannot agree more.
The best of the IG and go to for Inquisition.
I have two squads of each generation for giggles (these last 3, the first ever set I only have 1 guy)

The issue with them is they lack the ability to take territory from other armies.

They drop in and basically hold out for 2 turns before dying horribly.

It's the same issue as all IG vets lists, they don't have staying power for the points....you are just getting +1 BS and armor, which is outdone for less points in almost every shooty armies troops slots.

Firewarriors are better then these guys, it's embarressing.

I can't bring myself to do that. I don't really think they belong either. Their models are either ugly, uninspired or both and they've never struck me as intimidating on the table. They could vanish tomorrow and the game wouldn't be any worse off for it.

 Toofast wrote:
I can't bring myself to do that. I don't really think they belong either. Their models are either ugly, uninspired or both and they've never struck me as intimidating on the table. They could vanish tomorrow and the game wouldn't be any worse off for it.

Seconded.

Regarding the Taurox, I thought the idea of treads was to cross trenches and gaps in terrain. The Taurox's treads somehow seem ill-suited to accomplish such a thing. I think it'd function better with wheels or with a lengthened rear track and frontal wheels.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

If that is the way op wants to enjoy the game you should not force your opinions or thoughts on the game on them. Let them enjoy what they enjoy.

Dang, how can you have this mindset and play a war game?!

The OP asked us to change others opinions... and we have the opinion that those people are right. Then you give us your opinion that our expressing our opinions is wrong... because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

How far into that before you could smell your own hypocrisy?

BTW: asking Dakkadakka for its opinion has a fairly predictable outcome by now.

I love the Tempestus, great models and can be Chaosified.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

Jebus. I hadn't read the MT codex and didn't realize it was that bad.

I thought it was just them porting over the old stormtroopers with a fancy latinized name.


And yeah, everything about the Taurox is awful. Not sure how they manage to pile so much fail up in the design group at GW. And it's mostly Imperial stuff too. Stormguppies, Centurions, Taurox, new Hydaa/mortarbungle, Flying Freeze Ray Clown Shoe, Logan Claus, William Murderfang Murderfang Murderfang...

They're a port of Stormtroopers with a latin-ish name.

The old fluff is no invalidated, they're still orphans, still trained in the Schola Progenium and still the elite force of the IG, the IG still holds them in contempt.

All the 'dex was go in deeper, might not be for the better for some, I like it, and you can certainly fit most if not all previous fluff in the 'dex without issue.

There's a number of issues with MT/Stormtroopers.

First, is the silly renaming of Imperial Stormtroopers to Tempestus Scions. It's an awful change.

Second, the fluff in the MT book is abysmal, and reads like Harry Potter torture porn, with children at nightmare hogwarts being killed by instructors for disobedience, sealed into walls alive, etc.

Third, their rules are just naff. They've got the statline of a basic IG trooper, except BS4 and Carapace armor, roughly equivalent to that of a 7.5pt IG Veteran, but cost almost double that. Most of that is their AP3. Well, not only do their guns remain S3, but they have shorter range as well, meaning they can't make effective use of that AP3 because it has too difficult a time hurting anything, same issue with Thousand Sons and Vespids.

The new Skitarii units really are what Stormtroopers/Scions should have been, with enhanced leadership, high RoF assault-type weapons, etc.




That said, they have their place in 40k, and in fact Scions are much closer to what Space Marines originally were in the first iteration of the game than what Space Marines are now. The problem is that their execution has just been awful.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They're a port of Stormtroopers with a latin-ish name.

The old fluff is no invalidated, they're still orphans, still trained in the Schola Progenium and still the elite force of the IG, the IG still holds them in contempt.

All the 'dex was go in deeper, might not be for the better for some, I like it, and you can certainly fit most if not all previous fluff in the 'dex without issue.

Ahh, okay. Peregrine does have a tendency for hyperbole, lol.

I dunno. The ones I have are a mix of the 2nd wave and Kasrkin and I'd just use them (fluff-wise) as heavy troops. Technically I have some of the berets, but they are just mixed in with the line troopers since they didn't have Carapace armor originally.

I have every variation of dudes with hellguns, from Rogue Trader to DKoK Grenadiers

as for why they got their own codex, it's the same reason why Legion of the damned has therir own codex, harliquins ahve their own etc. they're a stand alone force that yes are most OFTEN seen working along side the IG and thus have a place in the IG 'dex. but they are a force that doesn't apper exclusivly with them. and therefore are seen as deserving their own 'dex. this way one can build an inqusitional storm trooper unit. or have a game where stormtroopers are working alongside space marines etc.


as for why the name change, gee I dunno... why might GW have decided to back away from using the name IMPERIAL STORMTROOPERS!?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Ahh, okay. Peregrine does have a tendency for hyperbole, lol.

It's not hyperbole, the fluff is really that bad. Storm troopers used to be the elite of the elite, recruited from the orphans of important families because they would (presumably) have the best qualities to start from. And they were the best because they were given the best possible training and equipment (well beyond the investment a normal guardsman would receive). Now they're all mind-wiped as soon as they're recruited so any useful qualities they might have had are destroyed, and then they're handed over to a ridiculous torture cult where badly behaved children are hunted down and killed by their comrades, generic torture and abuse are the default, commissars are given a "shoot your best friend" loyalty test, etc. And why are they the best soldiers? Because they obey orders without question. All of their initiative and skill from the previous fluff is gone and replaced with mindless robots.

i think the scion troopers look awesome, and love the book for its fluff and art, especially those color plates of the different regiments...
that's all i need to enjoy my toys...

cheers
jah

Not competitive, but still think they are cool for Suicide Plasma Deep Strike:

I have close to 70 Kasrkin I was hoping to find a use for when this Codex came out... Than I read it, and realized how much of a slap in the face it was to people who actually got excited for it. Yea, I knew it wouldn't be amazing, but holy cow, as a stand alone army it is laughable at how little it brings to the table. I didn't even bother to read the fluff, figuring it got the same GW treatment I have been seeing since 3rd Edition ended. Glad I didn't read it now after reading these comments.

And sad now it still isn't worth using the Kasrkin again when Veteran Squads do so much better, especially when supported by Yarrick.

@Kilo -- I think that looks a lot like a Cougar MRAP, way to go with the color choice and wheels.

MT are fine. The make an ass standalone Codex, it's "let's take one unit and one vehicle out of the Guard book and call it a full Codex by adding the dumbest-looking vehicle in the game to them".

@Peregrine

Erasing the memories of noble children between the age of 6 and 12 (the age you most have to enter the Schola Progenium else you are sent elsewere) isn't stupid. What incredible skills would a 8 years old have that need to be preserved even if they risk being traumatised by the potential brutal death of their parents (murdered, poisonned, killed in combat, executed, etc.)? Then again, they erase their memory with an ancient drug. They still seems to retain their kinestesic skills, their ability to speak, read and write, they just loose their memory (and sometimes not completly). It's functionaly a amnesia drug. You loose your identity not your skills.

When they talked about the best and most harsh training when describing the training of the Stormtrooper (and kasrkin) in the previous litterature about them what did you expected? They say they have a better and more gruelling training than Cadians, who start to train at age 6, go in full combat zone at age 14 and use live ammunitions for most if not all their training exercices. Don't you think many of these children are completly fethed up by this treatment? That many of them died very pointlessly? What do you think happens to a Cadian kid who says Feth you! to a drill instructor? Are you going to be surprised and disgusted when you realise that anti mutant pogrom means they kill all the mutants in a specific zone including their children?

When Space Marines recruit children of age 8 to 13 to submit them to a battery of test, trainings and genetic modification, only a small fraction succed. Many will die in those test and it won't trouble their Space Marines lords who will wach them fail and die while they very well could save them since most teachers knows when you are going to fail well before you do. Those who survive and don't make the cut have the «priviledge» of being slaves we like to call serfs and if you know the origin of that term, you will realise that the difference between the two is almost only sementic. That's actually more cruel than what happen to student of the Scholam who failed to make the cut to became Scions, but survived in good shape. They will became Arbites, priest, clercs, administrator, magistrate or any other task the Imperium might need them for and these are very well respected duties.

I don't see either how the Millitarum Tempestus codex is so horrible next to things like the Space Marine codex which implies if not clearly state that their training and recruitment technics are almost identical. Then, you have people who are even more horribile like Chaos Space Marines codex, Dark Eldars and Orks. Who blatantly describe civilisations of murderous psychopaths in nightmarish dimention. A normal teenagerhood for dark eldar is joining an Hellion gang and skinning people alive in the streets to feel joy and power (the thirst isn't such a big deal when they are young).

Yes it his very violent, dogmatic and sometime stupid, but that's how the entire 40K univers work. It's ruled by violence, survive through dogma and led by mad men and women and in no way was it described in another way since late 90's. I would even say that their codex is the single best piece of dark litterature they ever produced in codex format (their best in novel format would be The Armour of Contempt in my opinion). In a world dominated by ancient killer robots, murederous almost quicker than bullets space elves, giant-like supersoldiers in almost indestructible plates and bloodthirsty fungus, the fairly fragile human needs to be trained in a very inhuman fashion to simply survive let alone compete with them.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a number of issues with MT/Stormtroopers.

First, is the silly renaming of Imperial Stormtroopers to Tempestus Scions. It's an awful change.

Second, the fluff in the MT book is abysmal, and reads like Harry Potter torture porn, with children at nightmare hogwarts being killed by instructors for disobedience, sealed into walls alive, etc.

Third, their rules are just naff. They've got the statline of a basic IG trooper, except BS4 and Carapace armor, roughly equivalent to that of a 7.5pt IG Veteran, but cost almost double that. Most of that is their AP3. Well, not only do their guns remain S3, but they have shorter range as well, meaning they can't make effective use of that AP3 because it has too difficult a time hurting anything, same issue with Thousand Sons and Vespids.

The new Skitarii units really are what Stormtroopers/Scions should have been, with enhanced leadership, high RoF assault-type weapons, etc.




That said, they have their place in 40k, and in fact Scions are much closer to what Space Marines originally were in the first iteration of the game than what Space Marines are now. The problem is that their execution has just been awful.

Well the fluff in the TS codex is classically grimdark, and I read it as a parody on British schools. Which are also the model for Hogwarts...

Alcibiades wrote:


Well the fluff in the TS codex is classically grimdark, and I read it as a parody on British schools. Which are also the model for Hogwarts...

You're a Scion Harry

 Desubot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:


Well the fluff in the TS codex is classically grimdark, and I read it as a parody on British schools. Which are also the model for Hogwarts...

You're a Scion Harry

You're a Hairy Scion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!

Do you enjoy painting them?

Do you enjoy playing them?

Everyone else can go to hell.

Rock on, Talon.

If only the Scions could get Psyker named Harry :(

Scions are a waste of a book and army. The models are nice for Stormtroopers, but as a separate force they're useless. The only good thing that came from it was that toad of a vehicle the Taurox, and only because it makes a great Trukk alternative for my Blood Axes (with Zinge parts, those stock treads are absolutely awful).

 Peregrine wrote:
commissars are given a "shoot your best friend" loyalty test, etc

So you set aside a load of money and resources on training up a corps of Commissars then kill half your candidates? Not "grimdark," just daft.

As for the army itself, the Codex seems like a cash grab that could've been seamlessly folded into the main IG book, but the infantry models are done well and very useful to have for conversions.

 Fezman wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
commissars are given a "shoot your best friend" loyalty test, etc

So you set aside a load of money and resources on training up a corps of Commissars then kill half your candidates? Not "grimdark," just daft.

As for the army itself, the Codex seems like a cash grab that could've been seamlessly folded into the main IG book, but the infantry models are done well and very useful to have for conversions.

Honestly though the test makes sense. Commissars NEED to be brutal. they NEED to be willing to pull the trigger on a man they may have served beside for years, gotten to know, and be well disposed towards. besides, it's been awhile sicne we read the book, but do they actually end up killing these people? cause the logical thing would be to give them an empty gun, tell em it's loaded and say "go kill your buddy" (course thats not as Grimdark)

Orks had to get their gak from somewhere... And MT is no where near as Lore Broken as Tau are and their stupid crap. So I like MT

Yeah, as I noted in another thread, there's a difference between Grimdark and brutality just for its own sake.

Grimdark can take many flavors, from Schindler's List to Dredd, but the MT book started veering more into Hostel/SAW type territory where it's shock just to be shocking, and that just doesn't work for what's supposed to be the elite of the Imperial forces outside of the Space Marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
Honestly though the test makes sense. Commissars NEED to be brutal. they NEED to be willing to pull the trigger on a man they may have served beside for years, gotten to know, and be well disposed towards. besides, it's been awhile sicne we read the book, but do they actually end up killing these people? cause the logical thing would be to give them an empty gun, tell em it's loaded and say "go kill your buddy" (course thats not as Grimdark)

Yes, they kill the person, and it's incredibly stupid. A sadistic loyalty test like that undermines the entire concept of the commissar. They aren't just mindless executioners, they're the embodiment of loyalty to the Imperium. A commissar doesn't kill you because killing is fun, they do it because it's they're sacred duty to maintain order (the only hope for success in the IG) and you are threatening that order. It's harsh justice, but you've indisputably done something wrong. But this idiotic loyalty test lacks that element entirely. The victim isn't guilty of any crimes, they're just a convenient victim. The correct response would be to execute the person demanding the loyalty test for failing in their duties, not to mindlessly execute whoever they're told to kill without even considering if they're guilty or not. And it gets even worse because there's a first-person account from a commissar where his motivation for completing the test is explicitly "all I have to do to escape this torture cult is go kill my best friend!". The old commissar is now replaced entirely with a selfish coward who will do whatever it takes to protect their own life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, as I noted in another thread, there's a difference between Grimdark and brutality just for its own sake.

Grimdark can take many flavors, from Schindler's List to Dredd, but the MT book started veering more into Hostel/SAW type territory where it's shock just to be shocking, and that just doesn't work for what's supposed to be the elite of the Imperial forces outside of the Space Marines.

Exactly. Modern GW seems to have forgotten that grimdark can be about more than just shocking the audience with graphic violence and sadism. But I guess it's easier to add a scene of IG soldiers using babies for bayonet practice than to figure out how to include subtle references to how hopeless the world is.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!
I basically play them because I like 4*Deep Striking meltas and their models (both old and new), and because I neededn a force disciplined enough to be at the orders of an Inquisitorial conclave who want to fight the notoriously untrustworthy deathwing.

I've been talking about them with a friend, who basically considers them useless space marine wannabees who have no place in 40k :(
I'll admit that their recent codex undermined their "Inquisitorial" aspect a bit, although it is still very possible; and did tone up the grimdark in their formation process (although I do find it reasonable enough for troops who will accompany Inquisitors around and fight daemonhosts and stuff like those guys in Eisenhorn). However, I still love them.
Any chance of some counterarguments?

I guess the angle should be that the Tempestus are the tip of the spear, halo-jumping into hot zones and unleashing a torrent of plasma fire before the enemy can even react. The don't have the durability of Space Marines, so they sure as feth better kill whatever they're targeting, and they'll look cooler doing it. Jumping out of a zooming valkyrie is so much cooler than a clunky drop pod hitting the dirt and letting you out like it's a bus stop. I have liked every incarnation of the storm-trooper models, I don't think the Scions are necessarily better than the kasrkin models, or my 3rd edition spec ops models, or even the old green beret models, but the Scions still look pretty darn cool. Scions are much more practical than the old storm-troopers with their reduced points and streamlined mission, it was never worth paying 16 ppm for BS4 4+ guardsmen. Perhaps their best and often overlooked asset is move through cover, which allows them to auto-pass dangerous terrain tests, so you can deep strike them right into any piece of cover on the battlefield, making them much more likely to survive to the next turn.

Except for maybe Dark Eldar, or an unbound valkyrie list with IG, the Tempestus are the only army that can really pull off the air-cavalry game. Whisking units from point to point, maximizing their impact, grabbing relics or maelstrom points. Ok, so those are the pros...

All that said, they're still not that great. They're deep striking veterans at a 40% markup (when accounting for carapace armor), will always be out of range for orders, and only have 18" shooting range. Even a minor scatter will take them out of rapid-fire range of the target, hot-shot lasguns are mediocre even against their preferred target (MEQ) and they're rarely of any use against what you want your special weapons to target. You basically need to pay 85 points for a MT command squad just to get them voice of command when using the AM codex, and that's still just the junior officer orders.

The MT codex is a skeleton next to everything except the IK codex, and shows a complete lack of imagination. Literally any story about special forces will offer great inspiration about their missions: sniping, demolitions, search and rescue, night assaults, breach and clear, etc. Each of which could have inspired a cool unit for the codex, but instead it's just the basic 5 man Scion squad with special weapons options. There's really no value-added over the AM codex except objective secured, which just as easily could have been part of an AM formation or upgrade. Just making a Tempestor Prime an HQ choice in the AM codex would have done the job.

Two simple changes would make the MT codex completely redundant and make Scions a very cool unit.
- Allow Militarum Tempestus Command Squads to be taken as an HQ choice in the AM codex. If the Tempestor Prime is your warlord, then Scions may be taken as troops choices.
- All Scions squads may carry a tele-vox caster for 10 points, allowing them to receive orders wherever they are on the battlefield. A model with voice of command may issue orders to units with a tele-vox from any distance (not just 12") provided that the ordering model's unit has a vox or is embarked on a mobile command vehicle.

MT command squads as HQs in the AM codex would make the MT codex redundant. Tele-vox casters would allow Scions to receive powerful orders after deep-striking making them potentially much more dangerous.

@Peregrine

You could also see it this way. Commissar are human being. The officers and troopers they survey and fight with can very well be their friends. In fact they share a lot with these people. They fight together, win and lose together, eat the same food suffer the same hardship. You can imagine that this force them to create close bonds. Hell, in some cases they might even fall in love with a one of them. But at any point they might be called to kill them without any hesitation or bad things will happen. Even a brave and competent officer can break under pressure, make terrbile decisions or flee in terror at some point. This doesn't make them less friendly or even competent. It's the sort of thing that happen. A commissar has the duty to kill them quickly to ensure their momentary lapse doesn't spread to the rest of the troop and shock them back into blind obediance. He cannot refuse least it spreads and he cannot hesitate because he has no time and the weigth of his authority could be questionned after. A commissar needs to be able to kill his best friend or secret lover at any point and any time. That's their life. Killing a good recruit to have a better one may seem harsh, but their isn't a lot of ways to prove if a men or women his capable of the worst. For comparision, child soldiers in central Africa are frequently forced to kill their own family and/or friends if they want to stay alive (note that their family were going to get killed anyway, but that doesn't make it easier or less abominable).

And I am of the opinion that the Taurox should be destroyed.

Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

"Hey guys we need a new model APC to go with the elite imperial storm troopers. Let's look at some modern military APCs for inspiration...



"Cool!"


"Looking good!"



"Another good choice!"



"Dear god, what is that atrocious abomination!? Let's not go with that..."

"Sorry man, management says it needs to look like an MRAP. Oh, and no wheels..."

I seem to be one of the few people who actually like the MT book. The fluff was decent, it wasnt exceptional, but it made sense that you would have to bring someone down to baseline in order to make them the elite soldiers they need. The Shield of Bhaal Leviathan book also does a cool job of showing how scions work in combat. Mostly I like the fact that they work in almost complete coordination, each person covering each angle of fire, moving with purpose and speed all with a few hand signals or transmissions from the commanders dataslate. Frankly they should have had some extra rules to back it up (maybe something like battle focus).

The codex itself does have some issues. One of the things I think could be done to fix it would be to drop the cost of Taurox Prime by 20 or more points, that way they are in "sweet spot" of being high firepower and no survivability. Additionally I think that IN THE MT CODEX, and not the AM codex, the Primes in all units, not just the HQ unit should be able to give orders, and the Command Squad would be able to issue 2 orders. This would seem redundant but I could see it working if they made it so you could reissue failed orders, that way the commander makes sure his troops are in line. Or we could go as previously mentioned making it so that all Scion squads could receive orders at unlimited range with Voxs. Other than that the only thing I think they are missing is in codex access to air support, which should have been avenger striker fighters and Vultures, but at the time we know that GW was not "officially" doing Forge World.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

Ceterum autem censeo Taurox esse delendam.

epronovost wrote:
@Peregrine

You could also see it this way. Commissar are human being. The officers and troopers they survey and fight with can very well be their friends. In fact they share a lot with these people. They fight together, win and lose together, eat the same food suffer the same hardship. You can imagine that this force them to create close bonds. Hell, in some cases they might even fall in love with a one of them. But at any point they might be called to kill them without any hesitation or bad things will happen. Even a brave and competent officer can break under pressure, make terrbile decisions or flee in terror at some point. This doesn't make them less friendly or even competent. It's the sort of thing that happen. A commissar has the duty to kill them quickly to ensure their momentary lapse doesn't spread to the rest of the troop and shock them back into blind obediance. He cannot refuse least it spreads and he cannot hesitate because he has no time and the weigth of his authority could be questionned after. A commissar needs to be able to kill his best friend or secret lover at any point and any time. That's their life. Killing a good recruit to have a better one may seem harsh, but their isn't a lot of ways to prove if a men or women his capable of the worst. For comparision, child soldiers in central Africa are frequently forced to kill their own family and/or friends if they want to stay alive (note that their family were going to get killed anyway, but that doesn't make it easier or less abominable).

That isn't necessary and is a stupid waste of resources. Your example is of a murdering band of thugs masquerading as an army. Not a professional military organization. There are far better methods for inspiring loyalty. And there are plenty of opportunities before a commissar is a commissar for them to prove they are capable of doing so without this silly kill random friend who could be a potential candidate for no reason. It undermines the idea of it just like Peregrine said. Think perhaps, that a hero like Creed's son is chosen after his death. Guy one of the best military commanders since Machanirus so his kid is naturally chosen to see if his legecy can be carried on. Then he gets killed to satisfy the test requirement for some other dude.

In the regular fluff, Commissars are simply indoctrinated from such an early age. They are singled out for their extreme dedication. People who wouldn't make the cut would be weeded out far before by their own execution if they showed any such weakness or lack of dedication. This is where their idea loyalty comes from. It is the success at all cost by persevering mentality.

Then they would be attach to a Senior Commissar for training in as a Cadet Commissar. You don't become a Commissar until the Senior guy says so. That means plenty of real life situations are then provided to ensure they are able to make this decision. If you fail in a real life situation you are executed which could be an opportunity to train another commissar in the very thing you are describing while making complete sense. Unlike what you are describing.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

An exalt to you, Senator!

As for Scions...

The tabletop power of Rogue Trader marines was rather similar to the fluff for said marines. Their power was toned down in succeeding editions. The same kind of thing happened to genestealers - 2nd Ed genestealers were absolutely horrifying in close combat, but this was scaled down. It took time for the gaping difference between fluff and tabletop representation to form.
Enter the scions. 99% of the book is spent on telling you how these scions are incredibly disciplined - brainwashed, conditioned, broken down and rebuilt from scratch. They. Will. Obey. Orders.
The other 1% of the book tells you that their leadership is no better than the regular Guard, that they lose access to all the morale- and leadership-bolstering items/orders (e.g. regimental banners, "Get back into the fight!", etc), and their officers can issue fewer orders per turn than their Guard counterparts. Their profile is no better than regular veterans.



I also think that the fluff went in a strange direction.
The Guard are utterly expendable. The ordinary lasgun is rugged, simple, utilitarian.
Marines are super-soldiers. Even their physical creation - let alone training - is time-consuming, expensive, complicated.
The Scions seem to embrace Marine-levels of complexity and expense but are, at the same time, expended in vast numbers. They wear fancy baroque outfits and suffer appalling loses. It's as if GW can't make up their mind on whether to emphasize their high cost or their low cost.

Mallich wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Furthermore, I consider that Taurox must be destroyed.

- Brother Cato

An exalt to you, Senator!

As for Scions...

The tabletop power of Rogue Trader marines was rather similar to the fluff for said marines. Their power was toned down in succeeding editions. The same kind of thing happened to genestealers - 2nd Ed genestealers were absolutely horrifying in close combat, but this was scaled down. It took time for the gaping difference between fluff and tabletop representation to form.
Enter the scions. 99% of the book is spent on telling you how these scions are incredibly disciplined - brainwashed, conditioned, broken down and rebuilt from scratch. They. Will. Obey. Orders.
The other 1% of the book tells you that their leadership is no better than the regular Guard, that they lose access to all the morale- and leadership-bolstering items/orders (e.g. regimental banners, "Get back into the fight!", etc), and their officers can issue fewer orders per turn than their Guard counterparts. Their profile is no better than regular veterans.



I also think that the fluff went in a strange direction.
The Guard are utterly expendable. The ordinary lasgun is rugged, simple, utilitarian.
Marines are super-soldiers. Even their physical creation - let alone training - is time-consuming, expensive, complicated.
The Scions seem to embrace Marine-levels of complexity and expense but are, at the same time, expended in vast numbers. They wear fancy baroque outfits and suffer appalling loses. It's as if GW can't make up their mind on whether to emphasize their high cost or their low cost.

There is a lot of problems with it and this is the worst. They are just unfluffy. There is a lot that needs to be done differently. The idea that they should be prices more than scouts is laughable right now.

Yea no, I think they're useless.

They are awesome! Granted though I have always liked Storm Troopers and always wanted an army of them as I love the fluff. Even if I don't agree with all the new rules, fluff ect. I still am able to create my own thanks to the fact that my Elysians have their own Storm Trooper Regiments and there is nothing saying you cant run them as Cadian Kassirkin or another Regiments Storm Troopers. The Taurox gets a bad rap but its really not as bad as people make it out to be, especially with a few conversions such as wheels really making a difference in how they look. Really man who cares what anyone else says, if you think they are cool then run them! Any boring old player can play Space Marines or Guard but I like the flavorful niche these guys bring to the table, even if its not the most competitive of books. I also have to laugh at some of the comments being made in regards to "they could have put it all in the Guard Book, ect". Well two things gentlemen, 1. It was a chance for GW to get more money and 2. the same could be said for a lot of the Space Marine armies and Imperium in general.

@nedTCM

What you are describing is still true. Scholam student leave it after their Complience Test (the kill your best friend test for commissar) at teenagerhood. They are then send to their new duties has junior commissar and aren't fullfledge ones until they got the approval of their teacher. Here are a few questions that you should trie to answer.

How would you test the abilitie of someone to kill his best friend or lover without hesitation because he needs to in a difficult situation while knowing that if he fails not only will he be responsible of a terrible misconduct that could causes hundred of lives, but also that you would also pay for his crime because you were resonsible of him to a large extend?

What do that student of yours would need to demonstrate and how would you evaluate him on that specific skill?

epronovost wrote:
@nedTCM

What you are describing is still true. Scholam student leave it after their Complience Test (the kill your best friend test for commissar) at teenagerhood. They are then send to their new duties has junior commissar and aren't fullfledge ones until they got the approval of their teacher. Here are a few questions that you should trie to answer.

How would you test the abilitie of someone to kill his best friend or lover without hesitation because he needs to in a difficult situation while knowing that if he fails not only will he be responsible of a terrible misconduct that could causes hundred of lives, but also that you would also pay for his crime because you were resonsible of him to a large extend?

What do that student of yours would need to demonstrate and how would you evaluate him on that specific skill?

You are so wrapped up in the idea killing a loved one is so difficult or that it is some sort of ultimate test. This test literally proves nothing of the sort. It simply says when someone is watching you will save your own skin instead of making a hard choice which is standing up for principles in the face of death.

If you wanted to see what he would do you would monitor their actions over time in real world situations. You put a person in training and his personal life in tough situations requiring him to make hard decisions and sacrifices. Especially sacrifices of his own body. These are the technique people use to see measure peoples character. And then you indoctrinate that your organization is worth fighting for. From then you monitor them, especially when they think no one is watching, to see how they act and find out if they are genuine. That is the best indicator of loyalty you can have.

I want to help you,... but I honestly can't.

Tempestus are horrible. Just grab 10 Veterans and give them carapace armor.

They are a cleaner, more high-tech and independent version of Stormtroopers. I would rather they just give the new model and retain the name. Or at least make a distinction between the two, as stormtroopers were already in the lore and there are many differences.

 gmaleron wrote:
They are awesome! Granted though I have always liked Storm Troopers and always wanted an army of them as I love the fluff. Even if I don't agree with all the new rules, fluff ect. I still am able to create my own thanks to the fact that my Elysians have their own Storm Trooper Regiments and there is nothing saying you cant run them as Cadian Kassirkin or another Regiments Storm Troopers. The Taurox gets a bad rap but its really not as bad as people make it out to be, especially with a few conversions such as wheels really making a difference in how they look. Really man who cares what anyone else says, if you think they are cool then run them! Any boring old player can play Space Marines or Guard but I like the flavorful niche these guys bring to the table, even if its not the most competitive of books. I also have to laugh at some of the comments being made in regards to "they could have put it all in the Guard Book, ect". Well two things gentlemen, 1. It was a chance for GW to get more money and 2. the same could be said for a lot of the Space Marine armies and Imperium in general.

Yea, but each Space Marine release comes with new units. How many unique units do Space Wolves have? The Tempestus codex was completely half-baked. It's not like it was simply underpowered, they just let the mold dry on the Taurox kicked it out the door and said, "ok go field a Guard army, except you can only take Scions, valkyries, and this av 11 apc."

In a CAD Imperial Guard force (still bound mind you) you can field like 120 scions using their platoon structure. You can field 9 valkyries. It would have taken so little effort to come up with a handful of interesting Scion units if they were keen on making money...they can have these ones for free:
- Scion sniper squads
- Scion heavy weapon squads
- Scion demolition squads
- Scion artillery/orbital strike spotters
- Scions in riot gear (assaulty squad with power mauls and slab shields)

The MT book treads no ground that the IG book doesn't already have, because we've had storm-trooper/grenadier forces as an option since forever. As I mentioned in a previous post, just slotting Tempestor Command Squads into the IG HQ slot would have been enough to replace the MT codex if that allowed Scions as troops. It's just so disappointing, like the Imperial Knights codex, they lack any kind of creativity or planning, and just feel empty as anything except money grabs or ally data slates.

epronovost wrote:
You could also see it this way. Commissar are human being. The officers and troopers they survey and fight with can very well be their friends. In fact they share a lot with these people. They fight together, win and lose together, eat the same food suffer the same hardship. You can imagine that this force them to create close bonds. Hell, in some cases they might even fall in love with a one of them. But at any point they might be called to kill them without any hesitation or bad things will happen. Even a brave and competent officer can break under pressure, make terrbile decisions or flee in terror at some point. This doesn't make them less friendly or even competent. It's the sort of thing that happen. A commissar has the duty to kill them quickly to ensure their momentary lapse doesn't spread to the rest of the troop and shock them back into blind obediance. He cannot refuse least it spreads and he cannot hesitate because he has no time and the weigth of his authority could be questionned after. A commissar needs to be able to kill his best friend or secret lover at any point and any time. That's their life. Killing a good recruit to have a better one may seem harsh, but their isn't a lot of ways to prove if a men or women his capable of the worst.

But you're still missing the point. Having to execute your innocent friend to prove how loyal you are is a fine test if the goal is to create mindless killing robots who will unquestioningly kill whoever you tell them to kill. But commissars aren't mindless thugs. They exist to punish the guilty, not to execute random innocents to prove how awesome they are. Telling a commissar to execute an innocent person as a test of loyalty is a blatant rejection of everything a commissar is supposed to be. The correct response is to ignore the order, declare the person issuing it a traitor, and execute them for attempting to needlessly waste the Imperium's resources.

Plus, don't forget that we have the first-person account of this loyalty test from a commissar who passed it. Their motivation for killing their friend was explicitly "this is what I have to do to escape this hellish torture cult, it's a small price to pay", not "my friend is guilty and so I must Do What Must Be Done as much as it hurts me to do it". That isn't the living embodiment of duty and loyalty, it's a selfish coward who would rather kill innocent people to protect their own life than take responsibility for refusing an unjust order. IOW, not what a commissar is supposed to be.

For comparision, child soldiers in central Africa are frequently forced to kill their own family and/or friends if they want to stay alive (note that their family were going to get killed anyway, but that doesn't make it easier or less abominable).

And I really don't think that "child soldiers in Africa" is a good source of inspiration for the IG. They're supposed to be the best recruits from an entire planet's military, not a band of murderous thugs who spend most of their time slaughtering unarmed civilians.

[MOD EDIT - ABSOLUTLEY Inappropriate for Dakka Dakka - Alpharius]

bibotot wrote:
I want to help you,... but I honestly can't.

Tempestus are horrible. Just grab 10 Veterans and give them carapace armor.

They are a cleaner, more high-tech and independent version of Stormtroopers. I would rather they just give the new model and retain the name. Or at least make a distinction between the two, as stormtroopers were already in the lore and there are many differences.

Veterans can't Deep Strike.

Scions with 4 Plasma or Melta Deep striking will wreck much. Just give them an OM TDA with Servo Skulls and it is still one heck of an Alpha Strike.

 KiloFiX wrote:

bibotot wrote:
I want to help you,... but I honestly can't.

Tempestus are horrible. Just grab 10 Veterans and give them carapace armor.

They are a cleaner, more high-tech and independent version of Stormtroopers. I would rather they just give the new model and retain the name. Or at least make a distinction between the two, as stormtroopers were already in the lore and there are many differences.

Veterans can't Deep Strike.

Scions with 4 Plasma or Melta Deep striking will wreck much. Just give them an OM TDA with Servo Skulls and it is still one heck of an Alpha Strike.

Point of order, only command squads can take 4 special weapons, so you're only dropping in with 2 special weapons or you're paying a 15 point tax just to squeeze in those 2 extra weapons. It'd be very cool if you could stack Scion squads with 4 special weapons, then they'd hit with a vengeance.

That 15 pts extra also gives you a solid chance to TL your weapons.

 TheSilo wrote:

Two simple changes would make the MT codex completely redundant and make Scions a very cool unit.
- Allow Militarum Tempestus Command Squads to be taken as an HQ choice in the AM codex. If the Tempestor Prime is your warlord, then Scions may be taken as troops choices.
- All Scions squads may carry a tele-vox caster for 10 points, allowing them to receive orders wherever they are on the battlfield. A model with voice of command may issue orders to units with a tele-vox from any distance (not just 12") provided that the ordering model's unit has a vox or is embarked on a mobile command vehicle.

MT command squads as HQs in the AM codex would make the MT codex redundant. Tele-vox casters would allow Scions to receive powerful orders after deep-striking making them potentially much more dangerous.

This is the best idea for TM i've heard for a while.

Stormtrooper Dream Codex:

General Changes:
Stormtrooper
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
3 4 3 3 1 4 1 8 4+
Sgt has LD 9
Special Operations: Each unit must choose one - Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Scout with Stealth First turn
Hot-shot Lasgun - Assault 3
Vox - Reroll Order, increase order range by 6
Stormtrooper Orders the same may only be used on Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers can also receive IG orders their army book.

HQ:
Commissar same stats
Stormtrooper Command Squad - 90 points base
Commander - Refractor Field
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
4 4 3 3 3 4 3 9 4+
Commander may issue two orders. Regimental Standard replaces Platoon Standard.

Elite:
Sniper Squad - Hot Shot Long Las - Range 36 - X AP 3 Heavy 1 Sniper
3-5 Stormtroopers. 25 Points Each
One Stormtrooper may trade his Rifle for a spotter scope for 5 points. To hit rolls of 1 may be rerolled, successful cover saves made by target unit must be rerolled.

Troops:
Stromtrooper Platoon - Entire platoon rolls for Reserves at the same time, Each platoon must use same Spec Ops choice
1-2 Squads - Squad 65 point Base
0-1 Platoon Command Squad - Current command squad stats, 1 order, 80 points base

Fast Attack:
Valkyrie, Vendetta, or Vulture 1+ BS upgrade for 10 points
Tarox Prime - Reduced to 65 Points Missile Upgrade 15, Gatling Cannon Upgrade 5

Heavy Support:
Stormtrooper Observer Team: 95 points
May fire either a Basilisk or Colossus Shell always scatters full 2d6.
Maybe take a Range Finder for 10 points - Scatter is reduced by Ballistic Skill if in line of sight.


Characters:
Major Mortensen – Stormtrooper Commander – 90 points
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
4 5 3 3 4 4 3 10 4+/5++
Rules: FNP, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, 2 Orders, Redemption Corps, Surgical Strike
Wargear – Hotshot Lasgun, Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Power sword
Redemption Corps – One squad is designated at the start of the game as the Redemption Corps. Major Mortensen must join this squad. That squad must pick the Deep Strike special operation and receives an extra attack in close combat.
Surgical Strike – If Major Mortensen and his squad successfully complete a charge each Stormtrooper gains HOW. These HOW attacks have the Rending special rule.

Add in one dual kit with snipers and observers. With these additions, you would have an answer to all their problems. Decent options for long range attack. Better anti-tank at long range. The infantry is still expensive and fragile, but harder hitting to ensure they do damage. Also they better reflect their fluff by having flexible deployment options and assault weapons. You also no longer need to worry about having to arrive directly next to your opponent since your weapon is assault and not rapid fire. Fluffy character and better standard commander model to utilize orders like you should. Cheaper Taurox makes it more useful.

I4?

4W EW SC?

Rending HoW?

No thanks.

TheSilo's idea is better.

I had a thought, people complain about them being marine wannabes, I have always thought about the scions in the fluff as being marine like because they are close to marines but they can be CONTROLLED. Normal space marines are so far from humanity they often go off to do their own thing, and show up when they want to. You call and ask for help from Space Marines and they can choose to accept. Scions are the marine-light specialists the Departmento Munitorum can call upon at will and use as they wish without question. I see them as a more accessible space marine who can fulfill the needs of the guard without all the fuss. Sure they arent as good as Marines, but they follow orders and they arent likely to fall to chaos or disappear whenever they feel like it (im looking at you Dark Angels).

 Ashiraya wrote:
I4?

4W EW SC?

Rending HoW?

No thanks.

TheSilo's idea is better.

3W, Scion commanders are already I4

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I had a thought, people complain about them being marine wannabes, I have always thought about the scions in the fluff as being marine like because they are close to marines but they can be CONTROLLED. Normal space marines are so far from humanity they often go off to do their own thing, and show up when they want to. You call and ask for help from Space Marines and they can choose to accept. Scions are the marine-light specialists the Departmento Munitorum can call upon at will and use as they wish without question. I see them as a more accessible space marine who can fulfill the needs of the guard without all the fuss. Sure they arent as good as Marines, but they follow orders and they arent likely to fall to chaos or disappear whenever they feel like it (im looking at you Dark Angels).

I figured it was always a matter of scions just being way more practical and affordable than marines. It'd be nice to have every guardsmen complete Space Marine training, but that's not practical and most wouldn't cut it. Scions seemed like the more reasonable solution than hoping for the million to one situation where marines are available to drop in to the rescue. Most developed worlds would be able to maintain a scion, kasrkin, or equivalent, but those worlds probably outnumber marine chapters 100:1.

They are probably also easier to control, as you say. But I assume that it's more a matter of resources.

 TheSilo wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I had a thought, people complain about them being marine wannabes, I have always thought about the scions in the fluff as being marine like because they are close to marines but they can be CONTROLLED. Normal space marines are so far from humanity they often go off to do their own thing, and show up when they want to. You call and ask for help from Space Marines and they can choose to accept. Scions are the marine-light specialists the Departmento Munitorum can call upon at will and use as they wish without question. I see them as a more accessible space marine who can fulfill the needs of the guard without all the fuss. Sure they arent as good as Marines, but they follow orders and they arent likely to fall to chaos or disappear whenever they feel like it (im looking at you Dark Angels).

I figured it was always a matter of scions just being way more practical and affordable than marines. It'd be nice to have every guardsmen complete Space Marine training, but that's not practical and most wouldn't cut it. Scions seemed like the more reasonable solution than hoping for the million to one situation where marines are available to drop in to the rescue. Most developed worlds would be able to maintain a scion, kasrkin, or equivalent, but those worlds probably outnumber marine chapters 100:1.

They are probably also easier to control, as you say. But I assume that it's more a matter of resources.

Forgot about that too, cost is a factor, not to mention that with marine they are just as much their equipment and their gene stock, both of which are in extremely short supply. I was in the mode of aloof marines since I just read the vraks book and the Marines would come and go as they pleased for what amounted to a major chaos incursion, leaving the guard to do most of the heavy lifting during the campaign.

I like the Guant/Cain take on Commisars (and not just those two, but the system and other Commisars shown in both series).

MT violates that lore in stupid Wardian ways... yet another reason to dislike Codex:Unit.

Gaunt and Cain were both exceptions to the rule, in that half-decent writers were responsible for their characterization.

MT fluff is bad because it's B-team writing. You could have written a second " Starship Troopers" following an orphan going from a Schola candidate to an officer. Incidentally, that book is better than any 40k fluff ever written.

It's not a bad concept. It's just poor execution by a mediocre writing team. Disliking the unit is attributing responsibility in the wrong place. At the end if the day, it's just a piece of plastic.

Yoyoyo wrote:
At the end if the day, it's just a piece of plastic.

That is the end all of any wargaming argument They're little plastic man dollies that we push around a table going "pew pew" at each other. Of course they're little plastic man dollies that people waste thousands of hours and thousands of dollars on

 Lobukia wrote:
I like the Guant/Cain take on Commisars (and not just those two, but the system and other Commisars shown in both series).

MT violates that lore in stupid Wardian ways... yet another reason to dislike Codex:Unit.

In particular, the good part about those books is it demonstrated that Commissars are assigned to units which befit their particular style of Commissaryness, generally speaking (imperial incompetence is everywhere). A draconian task master is something reserved for mass conscripts, penal units and the like, for in a regiment of volunteers or disciplined professionals they'll only degrade performance. Inspiration, iron discipline, harsh punishment, even compassion are all valid tools of the commissariat, and a proper commissar is trained to use them based on what will get the best results from the given situation or encounter.

As Peregrine said, having them part of some kind of torture-hogwarts and off their best friend because they're told too doesn't build that kind of character, it's nonsensical. Doubly so due to how well received and important Commissars are in the fluff, both as their role in-universe and by being the most popular window into the Imperial Guard via the Ghosts and Cain novels (even if Cain is humour and doesn't take canon especially seriously). Screwing with that so shallowly makes no sense, and only demonstrates the poor quality of writing coming out the "GW Design Team." The core 'dexes might be copy-pastes, but at least they usually don't read like the edgy fan-fiction of an angsty teenager with a predilection for too many chains and spikes as their chief clothing accessory.

"Militarum Tempestus" had potential, but not only was it a total phone-in on the rules, but the fluff is objectively worse than that which came before. At least for the rebranded Imperial Guard codex they stuck with the copy-pastes, and kept that slap-in-the-face name change out of the actual book, aside from the cover.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Screwing with that so shallowly makes no sense, and only demonstrates the poor quality of writing coming out the "GW Design Team." The core 'dexes might be copy-pastes, but at least they usually don't read like the edgy fan-fiction of an angsty teenager with a predilection for too many chains and spikes as their chief clothing accessory.

That's the current GW writers team in a nutshell. Absolute disregard towards previously well stablished fluff, new fluff that reads like gakky fanfiction written by teenagers, "really cool guy" characters all over the place and moustache twirling villains.

With most codexes they're limiting themselves to copy and paste, but then you have certain writers that simply can't resist the urge to add their own silly contributions to everything they touch. The latest fantasy wood elf armybook is a good example of that, you have the usual copypaste which is fine and then... Waaaaaaaard.

@Peregrine

There only is one issue with your vision. While I will have to completly agree on you that the Compliance Test of the future commissar will encourage people to kill and have no attachment AKA develop psychotic behaviors, there is no escape out of the «torture cult». After passing your test you gain access to an even more violent, dangerous and terrorising environment: 40K warzone. You think the drill abbots were cruel? Wait until you meet an ork. You will find them refreshingly bloodthirsty. You thought you would never have to kill a friend again? Tough luck, it's now your most important dutie and you will have to do it again and again.

Plus that test isn't in the vacuum. Every teacher pass several tests to his student, the Complience Test is just the last one. It's the ultimate obediance test hence the name. The idea is to force the children to pass test of various skills that promote team work, cohesion, trust, faith, discipline and excellence and at the end you pull the nasty suprise for the would be commissar.

Of course from time to time, it will produce a falty recruit no test or method of schooling is perfect especially in the Imperium which is rules by mad men and women. Cain is good exemple of that. He is a coward, a drunk and a self centered individual and he is a commissar. You also get people like Gaunt: almost completly blind to reality and dedicated to the Imperial cause no matter what. Commissar aren't made to make sacrifice of their person. That the job of their officers. Their job is to sacrifice others to force the majority to do insane things out of fear. They are fonctionnaly the Guru of your Torture Cult we call The Guard,

 Lobukia wrote:
I like the Guant/Cain take on Commisars (and not just those two, but the system and other Commisars shown in both series).

MT violates that lore in stupid Wardian ways... yet another reason to dislike Codex:Unit.

I just finished First & Only, and honestly wasn't a huge fan. Spoilers to follow...

Pointless Codex
Ugliest transport EVER

On the plus side, the models are actually pretty sweet but they could have just been an elite choice in AM.

I think all of the comments have pointed to a fairly strong consensus regarding the Scions: the fluff is fine (if a bit daft, but that's 40k), the models are pretty darn cool, and the codex is entirely pointless. Even GW knew this codex was entirely inferior to Codex: Astra Militarum because they started selling it a couple of weeks before C:AM was available- seemed like an attempt to get as many compulsive buyers as possible. Since then it has been at intermittent levels of availability, I think because GW can't entirely cut support because that would be cutting out a fairly new codex without a replacement (although I think even they wish C:MT would just go away).

Their "Platoons" typo in the Codex hints that they copy-pasted from the upcoming AM book and spent almost no effort on the MT material. No follow-through on the elite glory-boys idea, no passion, no creativity, no effort. That's the problem -- not that it couldn't have been 100x better.

I don't mind the limited unit selection. Scions are fun to play due to the units they have. Buy they could have been great. More opportunity to customize your army and round out their inherent weaknesses. Choose Warlord traits, make them all amazing, and let them help you tailor your strategies to match your deployment flexibility. Give out more Orders and better synergy. Why not Hit and Run, Interceptor, Relentless, and Vehicle Orders that also play to mobility and the glass hammer theme? Let MT units sabotage uncontested enemy objectives on a D3 so the enemy can't just sit back and gunline from range. Throw in tons of cool wargear to buffer the weaknesses and enhance the capabilities of T3 human infantry. Make the nameless HQ's unique and interesting by giving them creative and effective gear nobody else can have.

Even without 2-3 extra units (Snipers, Forward Observers and a cheap Open-Topped Transport spring to mind) there is a ton of room to make a fun and completely original army. I don't see Scions as more expensive Vets, but the comparison is always springing up. GW didn't do enough to differentiate them to most people. Unfortunately it would have taken somebody who gives a damn to have gotten it right the first time!

 Accolade wrote:
I think all of the comments have pointed to a fairly strong consensus regarding the Scions: the fluff is fine (if a bit daft, but that's 40k), the models are pretty darn cool, and the codex is entirely pointless.

It depends which comments you are reading to obtain your "fairly strong consensus" It seems plenty of people don't like the fluff, don't like the Taurox and think the Scion models themselves are good. Personally I don't even like the Scion models themselves either, they're "okay" but not great and the pricing is insane at $7USD per model.

I am still waiting for the explosion of the 40k universe's "End Times", where it all blows up and they destroy all of their fluff for yet another game and try to redesign it so that they can copyright everything and anything so they can force us ALL to have sub par codices and sub par shiny new models... With the AM Codex leading the way in lowering the bar.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I think all of the comments have pointed to a fairly strong consensus regarding the Scions: the fluff is fine (if a bit daft, but that's 40k), the models are pretty darn cool, and the codex is entirely pointless.

It depends which comments you are reading to obtain your "fairly strong consensus" It seems plenty of people don't like the fluff, don't like the Taurox and think the Scion models themselves are good. Personally I don't even like the Scion models themselves either, they're "okay" but not great and the pricing is insane at $7USD per model.

I guess I should have probably said that there was a consensus that the codex itself was trash. The rest of it is, as you said, rather up for debate

There fluff makes them seem a little SS like just elite mindless goons who do what ever the god emperor tells them. As for the rox I personally think it is a well modeled APC unit with some decent options, Yes there codex is over priced for what it is and yeah we would love to see the kasrkin in a plastic form but I do also like the current models with either the helmets or barrett's option.