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That Taurox looks like Postman Pats van...

More to the point... I don't know anything about Imperial Guard, just think they have cool minis, I'm looking at you Marbo, and I know that one day, but not today, I'd like to build and play me some IG. So for me to read this thread was kind of a letdown. They replaced Storm Troopers with Scions? Kind of makes both those new codices lose their appeal for me.

I like the Taurox with the wheel conversion kits from third party companies.
Plus mentioning that will hopefully encourage more people to do that and sell me the track assemblies

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

If that is the way op wants to enjoy the game you should not force your opinions or thoughts on the game on them. Let them enjoy what they enjoy.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

So much this.
What a silly idea and execution of a codex.

I cannot agree more.
The best of the IG and go to for Inquisition.
I have two squads of each generation for giggles (these last 3, the first ever set I only have 1 guy)

The issue with them is they lack the ability to take territory from other armies.

They drop in and basically hold out for 2 turns before dying horribly.

It's the same issue as all IG vets lists, they don't have staying power for the points....you are just getting +1 BS and armor, which is outdone for less points in almost every shooty armies troops slots.

Firewarriors are better then these guys, it's embarressing.

I can't bring myself to do that. I don't really think they belong either. Their models are either ugly, uninspired or both and they've never struck me as intimidating on the table. They could vanish tomorrow and the game wouldn't be any worse off for it.

 Toofast wrote:
I can't bring myself to do that. I don't really think they belong either. Their models are either ugly, uninspired or both and they've never struck me as intimidating on the table. They could vanish tomorrow and the game wouldn't be any worse off for it.

Seconded.

Regarding the Taurox, I thought the idea of treads was to cross trenches and gaps in terrain. The Taurox's treads somehow seem ill-suited to accomplish such a thing. I think it'd function better with wheels or with a lengthened rear track and frontal wheels.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

If that is the way op wants to enjoy the game you should not force your opinions or thoughts on the game on them. Let them enjoy what they enjoy.

Dang, how can you have this mindset and play a war game?!

The OP asked us to change others opinions... and we have the opinion that those people are right. Then you give us your opinion that our expressing our opinions is wrong... because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

How far into that before you could smell your own hypocrisy?

BTW: asking Dakkadakka for its opinion has a fairly predictable outcome by now.

I love the Tempestus, great models and can be Chaosified.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. Their fluff is stupid and there's no reason for them to have a separate codex. Put them back into the IG codex, rename them "storm troopers", and restore the old fluff where they are elite soldiers with the best equipment instead of the brainwashed victims of a bizarre torture cult. Oh, and delete the Taurox and forget that it ever existed.

Jebus. I hadn't read the MT codex and didn't realize it was that bad.

I thought it was just them porting over the old stormtroopers with a fancy latinized name.


And yeah, everything about the Taurox is awful. Not sure how they manage to pile so much fail up in the design group at GW. And it's mostly Imperial stuff too. Stormguppies, Centurions, Taurox, new Hydaa/mortarbungle, Flying Freeze Ray Clown Shoe, Logan Claus, William Murderfang Murderfang Murderfang...

They're a port of Stormtroopers with a latin-ish name.

The old fluff is no invalidated, they're still orphans, still trained in the Schola Progenium and still the elite force of the IG, the IG still holds them in contempt.

All the 'dex was go in deeper, might not be for the better for some, I like it, and you can certainly fit most if not all previous fluff in the 'dex without issue.

There's a number of issues with MT/Stormtroopers.

First, is the silly renaming of Imperial Stormtroopers to Tempestus Scions. It's an awful change.

Second, the fluff in the MT book is abysmal, and reads like Harry Potter torture porn, with children at nightmare hogwarts being killed by instructors for disobedience, sealed into walls alive, etc.

Third, their rules are just naff. They've got the statline of a basic IG trooper, except BS4 and Carapace armor, roughly equivalent to that of a 7.5pt IG Veteran, but cost almost double that. Most of that is their AP3. Well, not only do their guns remain S3, but they have shorter range as well, meaning they can't make effective use of that AP3 because it has too difficult a time hurting anything, same issue with Thousand Sons and Vespids.

The new Skitarii units really are what Stormtroopers/Scions should have been, with enhanced leadership, high RoF assault-type weapons, etc.




That said, they have their place in 40k, and in fact Scions are much closer to what Space Marines originally were in the first iteration of the game than what Space Marines are now. The problem is that their execution has just been awful.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They're a port of Stormtroopers with a latin-ish name.

The old fluff is no invalidated, they're still orphans, still trained in the Schola Progenium and still the elite force of the IG, the IG still holds them in contempt.

All the 'dex was go in deeper, might not be for the better for some, I like it, and you can certainly fit most if not all previous fluff in the 'dex without issue.

Ahh, okay. Peregrine does have a tendency for hyperbole, lol.

I dunno. The ones I have are a mix of the 2nd wave and Kasrkin and I'd just use them (fluff-wise) as heavy troops. Technically I have some of the berets, but they are just mixed in with the line troopers since they didn't have Carapace armor originally.

I have every variation of dudes with hellguns, from Rogue Trader to DKoK Grenadiers

as for why they got their own codex, it's the same reason why Legion of the damned has therir own codex, harliquins ahve their own etc. they're a stand alone force that yes are most OFTEN seen working along side the IG and thus have a place in the IG 'dex. but they are a force that doesn't apper exclusivly with them. and therefore are seen as deserving their own 'dex. this way one can build an inqusitional storm trooper unit. or have a game where stormtroopers are working alongside space marines etc.


as for why the name change, gee I dunno... why might GW have decided to back away from using the name IMPERIAL STORMTROOPERS!?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Ahh, okay. Peregrine does have a tendency for hyperbole, lol.

It's not hyperbole, the fluff is really that bad. Storm troopers used to be the elite of the elite, recruited from the orphans of important families because they would (presumably) have the best qualities to start from. And they were the best because they were given the best possible training and equipment (well beyond the investment a normal guardsman would receive). Now they're all mind-wiped as soon as they're recruited so any useful qualities they might have had are destroyed, and then they're handed over to a ridiculous torture cult where badly behaved children are hunted down and killed by their comrades, generic torture and abuse are the default, commissars are given a "shoot your best friend" loyalty test, etc. And why are they the best soldiers? Because they obey orders without question. All of their initiative and skill from the previous fluff is gone and replaced with mindless robots.

i think the scion troopers look awesome, and love the book for its fluff and art, especially those color plates of the different regiments...
that's all i need to enjoy my toys...

cheers
jah

Not competitive, but still think they are cool for Suicide Plasma Deep Strike:

I have close to 70 Kasrkin I was hoping to find a use for when this Codex came out... Than I read it, and realized how much of a slap in the face it was to people who actually got excited for it. Yea, I knew it wouldn't be amazing, but holy cow, as a stand alone army it is laughable at how little it brings to the table. I didn't even bother to read the fluff, figuring it got the same GW treatment I have been seeing since 3rd Edition ended. Glad I didn't read it now after reading these comments.

And sad now it still isn't worth using the Kasrkin again when Veteran Squads do so much better, especially when supported by Yarrick.

@Kilo -- I think that looks a lot like a Cougar MRAP, way to go with the color choice and wheels.

MT are fine. The make an ass standalone Codex, it's "let's take one unit and one vehicle out of the Guard book and call it a full Codex by adding the dumbest-looking vehicle in the game to them".

@Peregrine

Erasing the memories of noble children between the age of 6 and 12 (the age you most have to enter the Schola Progenium else you are sent elsewere) isn't stupid. What incredible skills would a 8 years old have that need to be preserved even if they risk being traumatised by the potential brutal death of their parents (murdered, poisonned, killed in combat, executed, etc.)? Then again, they erase their memory with an ancient drug. They still seems to retain their kinestesic skills, their ability to speak, read and write, they just loose their memory (and sometimes not completly). It's functionaly a amnesia drug. You loose your identity not your skills.

When they talked about the best and most harsh training when describing the training of the Stormtrooper (and kasrkin) in the previous litterature about them what did you expected? They say they have a better and more gruelling training than Cadians, who start to train at age 6, go in full combat zone at age 14 and use live ammunitions for most if not all their training exercices. Don't you think many of these children are completly fethed up by this treatment? That many of them died very pointlessly? What do you think happens to a Cadian kid who says Feth you! to a drill instructor? Are you going to be surprised and disgusted when you realise that anti mutant pogrom means they kill all the mutants in a specific zone including their children?

When Space Marines recruit children of age 8 to 13 to submit them to a battery of test, trainings and genetic modification, only a small fraction succed. Many will die in those test and it won't trouble their Space Marines lords who will wach them fail and die while they very well could save them since most teachers knows when you are going to fail well before you do. Those who survive and don't make the cut have the «priviledge» of being slaves we like to call serfs and if you know the origin of that term, you will realise that the difference between the two is almost only sementic. That's actually more cruel than what happen to student of the Scholam who failed to make the cut to became Scions, but survived in good shape. They will became Arbites, priest, clercs, administrator, magistrate or any other task the Imperium might need them for and these are very well respected duties.

I don't see either how the Millitarum Tempestus codex is so horrible next to things like the Space Marine codex which implies if not clearly state that their training and recruitment technics are almost identical. Then, you have people who are even more horribile like Chaos Space Marines codex, Dark Eldars and Orks. Who blatantly describe civilisations of murderous psychopaths in nightmarish dimention. A normal teenagerhood for dark eldar is joining an Hellion gang and skinning people alive in the streets to feel joy and power (the thirst isn't such a big deal when they are young).

Yes it his very violent, dogmatic and sometime stupid, but that's how the entire 40K univers work. It's ruled by violence, survive through dogma and led by mad men and women and in no way was it described in another way since late 90's. I would even say that their codex is the single best piece of dark litterature they ever produced in codex format (their best in novel format would be The Armour of Contempt in my opinion). In a world dominated by ancient killer robots, murederous almost quicker than bullets space elves, giant-like supersoldiers in almost indestructible plates and bloodthirsty fungus, the fairly fragile human needs to be trained in a very inhuman fashion to simply survive let alone compete with them.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a number of issues with MT/Stormtroopers.

First, is the silly renaming of Imperial Stormtroopers to Tempestus Scions. It's an awful change.

Second, the fluff in the MT book is abysmal, and reads like Harry Potter torture porn, with children at nightmare hogwarts being killed by instructors for disobedience, sealed into walls alive, etc.

Third, their rules are just naff. They've got the statline of a basic IG trooper, except BS4 and Carapace armor, roughly equivalent to that of a 7.5pt IG Veteran, but cost almost double that. Most of that is their AP3. Well, not only do their guns remain S3, but they have shorter range as well, meaning they can't make effective use of that AP3 because it has too difficult a time hurting anything, same issue with Thousand Sons and Vespids.

The new Skitarii units really are what Stormtroopers/Scions should have been, with enhanced leadership, high RoF assault-type weapons, etc.




That said, they have their place in 40k, and in fact Scions are much closer to what Space Marines originally were in the first iteration of the game than what Space Marines are now. The problem is that their execution has just been awful.

Well the fluff in the TS codex is classically grimdark, and I read it as a parody on British schools. Which are also the model for Hogwarts...

Alcibiades wrote:


Well the fluff in the TS codex is classically grimdark, and I read it as a parody on British schools. Which are also the model for Hogwarts...

You're a Scion Harry

 Desubot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:


Well the fluff in the TS codex is classically grimdark, and I read it as a parody on British schools. Which are also the model for Hogwarts...

You're a Scion Harry

You're a Hairy Scion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Help me convince people that Militarum Tempestus are awesome and deserve to be part of 40K!

Do you enjoy painting them?

Do you enjoy playing them?

Everyone else can go to hell.

Rock on, Talon.

If only the Scions could get Psyker named Harry :(

Scions are a waste of a book and army. The models are nice for Stormtroopers, but as a separate force they're useless. The only good thing that came from it was that toad of a vehicle the Taurox, and only because it makes a great Trukk alternative for my Blood Axes (with Zinge parts, those stock treads are absolutely awful).

 Peregrine wrote:
commissars are given a "shoot your best friend" loyalty test, etc

So you set aside a load of money and resources on training up a corps of Commissars then kill half your candidates? Not "grimdark," just daft.

As for the army itself, the Codex seems like a cash grab that could've been seamlessly folded into the main IG book, but the infantry models are done well and very useful to have for conversions.

 Fezman wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
commissars are given a "shoot your best friend" loyalty test, etc

So you set aside a load of money and resources on training up a corps of Commissars then kill half your candidates? Not "grimdark," just daft.

As for the army itself, the Codex seems like a cash grab that could've been seamlessly folded into the main IG book, but the infantry models are done well and very useful to have for conversions.

Honestly though the test makes sense. Commissars NEED to be brutal. they NEED to be willing to pull the trigger on a man they may have served beside for years, gotten to know, and be well disposed towards. besides, it's been awhile sicne we read the book, but do they actually end up killing these people? cause the logical thing would be to give them an empty gun, tell em it's loaded and say "go kill your buddy" (course thats not as Grimdark)