Of our loyalist brotherhood of demigods, who would(through machinations of their own or indirect impact) cause untold mayhem and destruction throughout the Imperium of Man with their return?
Assuming that the Black Library has every far-fetched theory sitting on a dusty shelf in the catacombs beneath Britain, let's entertain this question in two parts. 1) Assuming you had all loyalists to choose from, be it from the theory that Ferrus Manus was secretly made up of trillions of tiny Ferrus Manus's and they only JUST came back together or that Sanguinius was just kidding, who would be most destructive to the Imperium with a sudden return? 2) Of those left behind who are largely suspected or known to be alive, who would you choose to be this harbinger of doom?
And most importantly... Why?
While I know theories and suspicions abound, I would think the following are reasonably dead:
Ferrus Manus
Sanguinius
Rogal Dorn
Because the Loyalists are called loyal for good reason.
- Primarch of the 1. returns. > bad news for chaos. Most likely to get up, breakfast, kick Abby, go to sleep again...
- Primarch of the 2. returns. > everybody is confused.... this is one of them?
- Primarch of the 5. returns. > Horses become a thing again. Girls love horses. 50% of Humans on his side in seconds...
- Primarch of the 6. returns. > smells like wet dog, but generally he wouldn't be able to "destroy" the Imperium.
- Primarch of the 7. returns. > he knows how to serve.
- Primarch of the 9. returns. > the Angelic one would have it easy. Looks like an Angel, sold as 'saint' to the masses by the church...
- Primarch of the 10. returns. > has the support of the tech guys.
- Primarch of the 11. returns > who?
- Primarch of the 13. returns. > a lot of the current state is his fault already.. now he can write a whole series of books...the Administratum would have a nerdgasm.
- Primarch of the 18. returns. > reforges the realm of man. No more Grimdark. The unbound flame to light up the darkness..
- Primarch of the 19. returns. > They won't see him coming. And then, its too late. Wouldn't mess with the general setup of the IoM.
- Primarch of the 20 returns. > which one?
What exactly would destroy the Imperium? It survived civil wars, it survived with 0 High Lords, and the Emperor is still there.
I'm not sure who would really cause any destruction at all really. Well, not directly at least. Certain ones like Leman Russ or Gulliman would likely say "Screw this" and succeed from the imperium, while Rogal Dorn could possibly declare direct war against the current imperiums way, vowing to destroy it in its current form if people (such as the inquisition or high lords) refuse to reform
Because the Loyalists are called loyal for good reason.
- Primarch of the 1. returns. > bad news for chaos. Most likely to get up, breakfast, kick Abby, go to sleep again...
- Primarch of the 2. returns. > everybody is confused.... this is one of them?
- Primarch of the 5. returns. > Horses become a thing again. Girls love horses. 50% of Humans on his side in seconds...
- Primarch of the 6. returns. > smells like wet dog, but generally he wouldn't be able to "destroy" the Imperium.
- Primarch of the 7. returns. > he knows how to serve.
- Primarch of the 9. returns. > the Angelic one would have it easy. Looks like an Angel, sold as 'saint' to the masses by the church...
- Primarch of the 10. returns. > has the support of the tech guys.
- Primarch of the 11. returns > who?
- Primarch of the 13. returns. > a lot of the current state is his fault already.. now he can write a whole series of books...the Administratum would have a nerdgasm.
- Primarch of the 18. returns. > reforges the realm of man. No more Grimdark. The unbound flame to light up the darkness..
- Primarch of the 19. returns. > They won't see him coming. And then, its too late. Wouldn't mess with the general setup of the IoM.
- Primarch of the 20 returns. > which one?
What exactly would destroy the Imperium? It survived civil wars, it survived with 0 High Lords, and the Emperor is still there.
Sorry, you missed the question. The 'Why' was in regards to "Why would their return cause damage" and then you were to pick who would have the most damaging return.
Well, based on the loyalist who still have a chance of being alive (leaving out ferrus manus even if I personally believe some part of him sill exists)
Corax: might get angry but probably won't do anything, would probably just chill with the raven guard and do whatever his chapter wants to do.
Khan: probably not much either might get super mad with all the corruption of the high lords, but he doesn't seem to be a very charismatic or particularly bothered type
Guilliman: demand things to change and if not he might secede, and form his own empire.
Dorn: do Dorn things, get really angry and probably declare open war on the high lords.
Leman Russ: might not do anything at first, but if another armageddon incident happens, or if the high lords give him gak, the dogs of war would be unleashed
Vulkan: would definitely getting very angry about the treatment of normal humans, would probably be in between the spectrum, keep peace with the imperium so to speak but not take any of their nonsense.
Johnson: once again another middle spectrum guy I think, but I don't know much about him, never cared for the dreaded dark angles lol.
I'll throw some wood on the fires and pick an easy dead guy:
Sanguinius is worshipped as divine by a significant portion of the populace and has a holiday. His return would likely see a schism not of his own making across the Imperium and a lot of high tensions between the BA successor chapters and other space marines. The High Lords may take preemptive action to calm the populace that is mistaken as aggression(which it may well be) and the tinderbox goes up.
For a live guy? I think Guilliman is pretty easy. He likely would wall up Ultramar and effectively secede without saying it. His legion may be split into chapters, but the 500 worlds are hardly undermanned. Because he could be accused of legion-building in contrast to his own codex, the High Lords may let their paranoia drive them to stupidity.
My belief is that say Leman Russ returns, and decides the IoM needs some fixing, it could cause a bit of damage if the Lords of Terra didn't agree with the changes. Many civilians would see the Russ as the next best thing to the Emporer returning, and would probably start worshipping him as well. With all of the religiousness ingrained into their heads, it would be hard for Russ to stop all of the worshipping, if that was what he wanted. There's no saying how many Sm chapters would join a primarch, and it likely depends on which primarch returned. It would also be hard to stop a primarch without any on the IoM's side. This is all assuming that the High Lords don't agree to changes, which they probably would agree with to a point, seeing as they are speaking to someone who a descendant to the Emperor himself.
Sorry, you missed the question. The 'Why' was in regards to "Why would their return cause damage" and then you were to pick who would have the most damaging return.
If the damage of the return of 99% of the known Loyalists isn't even close to " destroy the Imperium level" ?
Because thats my guess.
One of the 2 "expunged from all records" could cause some Problems if he returned.. he shouldn't exist, can't provide proof of his 'primarchness' etc pp;
Or one of the 20th Legion, if loyal, would cause serious Problems as a "known Traitor";
But IMO the IoM is going to endure even a return of 9 Primarchs at once. That is its role. ( disclaimer: until GW does a bubbleverse in space ).
Sorry, you missed the question. The 'Why' was in regards to "Why would their return cause damage" and then you were to pick who would have the most damaging return.
If the damage of the return of 99% of the known Loyalists isn't even close to " destroy the Imperium level" ?
Because thats my guess.
One of the 2 "expunged from all records" could cause some Problems if he returned.. he shouldn't exist, can't provide proof of his 'primarchness' etc pp;
Or one of the 20th Legion, if loyal, would cause serious Problems as a "known Traitor";
But IMO the IoM is going to endure even a return of 9 Primarchs at once. That is its role. ( disclaimer: until GW does a bubbleverse in space ).
True, it's hard to think progressive in GW's stagnant rate of story-telling. Still, I believe in you. You can do it.
Gulliman's return would be the most disruptive, as he would probably try to take over and "fix" the imperium. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions. Johnson might do the same, plus would probably start legion-building again (Johnson never signed on to the Codex Astartes).
The others don't seem as predisposed to wrangling with government, and so would probably take up the mantle of warmaster and fight the many enemies of mankind. If anything, that would be a stabilizing factor (the Primarchs were excellent generals).
For a live guy? I think Guilliman is pretty easy. He likely would wall up Ultramar and effectively secede without saying it. His legion may be split into chapters, but the 500 worlds are hardly undermanned. Because he could be accused of legion-building in contrast to his own codex, the High Lords may let their paranoia drive them to stupidity.
there was a supplement that was put out by bolter and chain sword called the Dornian heresy that talks about this. it is a good read. you should check it out if you haven't already.
DanielBeaver wrote: Gulliman's return would be the most disruptive, as he would probably try to take over and "fix" the imperium. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions. Johnson might do the same, plus would probably start legion-building again (Johnson never signed on to the Codex Astartes).
The others don't seem as predisposed to wrangling with government, and so would probably take up the mantle of warmaster and fight the many enemies of mankind. If anything, that would be a stabilizing factor (the Primarchs were excellent generals).
I agree with you except I tnink Guilliman returning and taking over the Imperium would actually be beneficial.
Guilliman would cause serious damage, he'd be straight to Terra to topple the corrupt government that grossly mirrors what he put in place. I would be surprised if he attacked Terra, denounced the Ecclesiarchy on every planet he passed, and waltzed straight into the Throne Room to see what remained of his Father. He'd then be reorganising the ENTIRE Imperium. No other Primarch would do that, they may topple the High Lords, they may attack Terra, they may dissolve the Ecclesiarchy, but none would try to rebuild the Imperium again.
How many would be straight to Cadia to face their traitorous brothers? I know the Lion would.
DanielBeaver wrote: Gulliman's return would be the most disruptive, as he would probably try to take over and "fix" the imperium. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions. Johnson might do the same, plus would probably start legion-building again (Johnson never signed on to the Codex Astartes).
The others don't seem as predisposed to wrangling with government, and so would probably take up the mantle of warmaster and fight the many enemies of mankind. If anything, that would be a stabilizing factor (the Primarchs were excellent generals).
I agree with you except I tnink Guilliman returning and taking over the Imperium would actually be beneficial.
DanielBeaver wrote: Gulliman's return would be the most disruptive, as he would probably try to take over and "fix" the imperium. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions. Johnson might do the same, plus would probably start legion-building again (Johnson never signed on to the Codex Astartes).
The others don't seem as predisposed to wrangling with government, and so would probably take up the mantle of warmaster and fight the many enemies of mankind. If anything, that would be a stabilizing factor (the Primarchs were excellent generals).
I agree with you except I tnink Guilliman returning and taking over the Imperium would actually be beneficial.
Beneficial, perhaps. Bloodless?
I'm sure he'd have to fight to do so. The High Lords of Terra aren't gonna give up their power easily. But I think him in charge would be far better for humanity than the state they're in now.
I think any of em could, but not the way we think. all of the loyalist primarchs are considered divine individuals as such if they returned I imagine you'd see a lot of arguement over if they where geniune. hell one source IIRC refers to a "war of the false primarch" for all we know a Primarch had ALREADY returned
Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
I don't think so. It's been like 10,000 years, I really don't think they'd give up their power without a fight.
Shidank wrote: True, it's hard to think progressive in GW's stagnant rate of story-telling. Still, I believe in you. You can do it.
You must not have followed the End Times series. GW blew up the entire Warhammer world in a few months.
I can see quite a few of the Primarchs causing damage when they return and decide the Imperium sucks and they could do a better job (which at least Guilliman, Russ, Vulkan, Dorn would think) The High Lords would probably disagree et voila, civil war. Of course, that is only if anyone is still paying attention to the High Lords at that point. Who would you rather follow? A living god or a stuffy old dude?
Russ would probably be the most damaging. Under his rule, no human in the Imperium would ever be sober again
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
Well said. To me, Sanguinius would be the most reasonable and most damaging. His divinity transcends the other primarchs and his following would be truly massive, despite his protests. The Ecclesiarchy would adapt or react violently. They may even split.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
I think Gulliman would work with the high lords as well. he seems more the type to work within the system and reform it, then to go renegade.
that said I think it's worth dividing the loyalist primarchs between "politicans" and ummm "not politicans" a primarch who is p;olitically inclined, like Gulliman, or maybe Dorn are apt to get involved with the running of the IoM. a Primarch like Russ? is more apt to just do his own thing and basicly play the role of a charismatic chapter master
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede? No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage.
I don't know about that. Leman Russ is pretty popular in the Imperium, and so are the Space Wolves. You have to look at it from the point of an Imperial citizen. Leman Russ is a living god, and one that is said to be very kind to the average guy on top of that. The alternative is an opressive, genocidal government led by snobbish old men with too much cybernetics. I think Russ would gain lots of influence really quickly as most of the Imperium's population and its military defects to him. Imagine if most of the Earths population was made up of devout Christians and Jesus would suddenly return. Would the people follow Jesus or Barack Obama and other world leaders? It is the same for the other Primarchs. All of them are basically gods to the Imperium's population, so all of them would naturally have massive influence and following.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede? No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
I think Gulliman would work with the high lords as well. he seems more the type to work within the system and reform it, then to go renegade.
that said I think it's worth dividing the loyalist primarchs between "politicans" and ummm "not politicans" a primarch who is p;olitically inclined, like Gulliman, or maybe Dorn are apt to get involved with the running of the IoM. a Primarch like Russ? is more apt to just do his own thing and basicly play the role of a charismatic chapter master
Guilliman is an empire builder. He would want things to be done his way, without others telling him how he is supposed to run stuff. Even when the Emperor himself was still around Guilliman was already thinking about making his own seperate empire. Also, Guilliman and Dorn were not the only politically minded Primarchs. Most of them were. Remember that most of them were planetary rulers before the Emperor arrived. Certainly Russ often concerned himself with politics, though he generally was too direct and confrontational to be a proper ruler of anything but a bunch of Vikings.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
I think Gulliman would work with the high lords as well. he seems more the type to work within the system and reform it, then to go renegade.
that said I think it's worth dividing the loyalist primarchs between "politicans" and ummm "not politicans" a primarch who is p;olitically inclined, like Gulliman, or maybe Dorn are apt to get involved with the running of the IoM. a Primarch like Russ? is more apt to just do his own thing and basicly play the role of a charismatic chapter master
I think Guilliman would certainly be willing to work with the High Lords, as would the Lion, but I think they would both be slightly more standoffish about the whole thing than someone like Sanguinius. Sanguinius, being the type of person he is, would likely go before the High Lords and kneel, pledging his loyalty as his first order of business. Guilliman would stand a better chance than the Lion at finding common ground with the High Lords, but there is still a decent chance for the situation to ignite IMO.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage.
I don't know about that. Leman Russ is pretty popular in the Imperium, and so are the Space Wolves. You have to look at it from the point of an Imperial citizen. Leman Russ is a living god, and one that is said to be very kind to the average guy on top of that. The alternative is an opressive, genocidal government led by snobbish old men with too much cybernetics. I think Russ would gain lots of influence really quickly as most of the Imperium's population and its military defects to him. Imagine if most of the Earths population was made up of devout Christians and Jesus would suddenly return. Would the people follow Jesus or Barack Obama and other world leaders?
It is the same for the other Primarchs. All of them are basically gods to the Imperium's population, so all of them would naturally have massive influence and following.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I meant that he would be too belligerent to bother getting anyone on his side. I think he would basically go to Fenris, then bring the Space Wolves right to Terra and tell the High Lords off immediately. That would not end in his favor.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage.
I don't know about that. Leman Russ is pretty popular in the Imperium, and so are the Space Wolves. You have to look at it from the point of an Imperial citizen. Leman Russ is a living god, and one that is said to be very kind to the average guy on top of that. The alternative is an opressive, genocidal government led by snobbish old men with too much cybernetics. I think Russ would gain lots of influence really quickly as most of the Imperium's population and its military defects to him. Imagine if most of the Earths population was made up of devout Christians and Jesus would suddenly return. Would the people follow Jesus or Barack Obama and other world leaders?
It is the same for the other Primarchs. All of them are basically gods to the Imperium's population, so all of them would naturally have massive influence and following.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
I think Gulliman would work with the high lords as well. he seems more the type to work within the system and reform it, then to go renegade.
that said I think it's worth dividing the loyalist primarchs between "politicans" and ummm "not politicans" a primarch who is p;olitically inclined, like Gulliman, or maybe Dorn are apt to get involved with the running of the IoM. a Primarch like Russ? is more apt to just do his own thing and basicly play the role of a charismatic chapter master
Guilliman is an empire builder. He would want things to be done his way, without others telling him how he is supposed to run stuff. Even when the Emperor himself was still around Guilliman was already thinking about making his own seperate empire. Also, Guilliman and Dorn were not the only politically minded Primarchs. Most of them were. Remember that most of them were planetary rulers before the Emperor arrived. Certainly Russ often concerned himself with politics, though he generally was too direct and confrontational to be a proper ruler of anything but a bunch of Vikings.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
I think Gulliman would work with the high lords as well. he seems more the type to work within the system and reform it, then to go renegade.
that said I think it's worth dividing the loyalist primarchs between "politicans" and ummm "not politicans" a primarch who is p;olitically inclined, like Gulliman, or maybe Dorn are apt to get involved with the running of the IoM. a Primarch like Russ? is more apt to just do his own thing and basicly play the role of a charismatic chapter master
Most of the tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs after the heresy was with Guilliman I believe. I don't think their relationship would be as easy as you think it would.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage.
I don't know about that. Leman Russ is pretty popular in the Imperium, and so are the Space Wolves. You have to look at it from the point of an Imperial citizen. Leman Russ is a living god, and one that is said to be very kind to the average guy on top of that. The alternative is an opressive, genocidal government led by snobbish old men with too much cybernetics. I think Russ would gain lots of influence really quickly as most of the Imperium's population and its military defects to him. Imagine if most of the Earths population was made up of devout Christians and Jesus would suddenly return. Would the people follow Jesus or Barack Obama and other world leaders?
It is the same for the other Primarchs. All of them are basically gods to the Imperium's population, so all of them would naturally have massive influence and following.
Khonsu wrote: Haha you really think that if a single loyalist Primarch will return he will secede?
No matter how reluctant the High Lords are they'd have to give him authority and let him change almost as much as he'd like.
No they wouldn't, there was already tension between the primarchs and the High Lords even before the Heresy.
Personally, I think it'd be either Guilliman or the Lion. I think Russ would be belligerent, but in the end wouldn't have enough of a following to do any serious damage. Guilliman and the Lion are the ones who could rally the Imperium, and if the High Lords or Ecclesiarchy had any reservations there would be serious trouble. Sanguinius could rally the Imperium as well, but being the Mary Sue that he is I think he would work with the High Lords as much as possible and try to keep everything smooth.
I think Gulliman would work with the high lords as well. he seems more the type to work within the system and reform it, then to go renegade.
that said I think it's worth dividing the loyalist primarchs between "politicans" and ummm "not politicans" a primarch who is p;olitically inclined, like Gulliman, or maybe Dorn are apt to get involved with the running of the IoM. a Primarch like Russ? is more apt to just do his own thing and basicly play the role of a charismatic chapter master
Guilliman is an empire builder. He would want things to be done his way, without others telling him how he is supposed to run stuff. Even when the Emperor himself was still around Guilliman was already thinking about making his own seperate empire. Also, Guilliman and Dorn were not the only politically minded Primarchs. Most of them were. Remember that most of them were planetary rulers before the Emperor arrived. Certainly Russ often concerned himself with politics, though he generally was too direct and confrontational to be a proper ruler of anything but a bunch of Vikings.
One of the main issues is that the era of the primarchs is literally ancient history to the high lords of the 40th millenium, and so I don't think that they would be particularly thrilled that these legendary heroes would come back. We as an audience "know" and like the primarchs - the 30th millenium is basically as familiar to us as the 40th. It would be like if the historical Achilles rose from the dead, walked into the UN, and said "Okay guys, I'm really awesome, I'm in charge now, the way you're doing things sucks". It would take incredible political skill for that historical resurrected person to take control of things and project his will. And granted, the Primarchs are truly exceptional and did just that on their home worlds (and even small star empires in the case of Gulliman). But... to do the same thing to the Imperium of Man, one of the most paranoid, sclerotic, vast and entrenched governments in all of science fiction? I don't think that transition would be smooth... and with Abaddon, the Necrons, Ork Waaghs and Tyranids breathing down the Imperium's throat, I think the last thing they need is the political turmoil that would come with a re-emergent Primarch.
I think most of the Primarchs would resign themselves to fighting the enemies of mankind. They would see that the modern Imperium is obviously evil and corrupt, but they might just grit their teeth and bear it because of a sense of loyalty or a sense of pragmatism. But Gulliman... he would try to effect change in the Imperium and become defacto Emperor. He did it before, and it would be out of character if he didn't do it again. But even with his superhuman political skills, could he really do it without significant (and dangerous) political turmoil? In the wake of the Heresy, there was a power vacuum that he stepped into (people wanted an emperor-like figure). No such power vacuum exists in 40k - the government structures are firmly cemented in place. Gulliman would have to tear things down before he could rebuild them.
Leman Russ: might not do anything at first, but if another armageddon incident happens, or if the high lords give him gak, the dogs of war would be unleashed
.
I disagree, Russ is not Grimnar and would probably De-throne the wolf lord quickly.
Russ was an instrument of death the emperor called upon many times (dog jokes aside) and was used to remove two other primarchs before he was tricked into hunting down magnus (damn you horus!!!!)
Russ wasn't stupid, he had been called to remove primarchs before and didn't question the call when it came again. He was a murderer and his brothers knew it. I don't think Russ really gave half a gak about humans just getting his mission done through violence.
IE:
Protect the human city!
Russ murders all of the attackers while using the city as bait allowing minimal casualties
He might snap at the high lords giving him gak, but really why would they? A first founding chapter that already demonstrated they will fight the inquisition without the primarch, what could the high lords possibly say about russ other than calling him a heretic that would bother him?
Leman Russ: might not do anything at first, but if another armageddon incident happens, or if the high lords give him gak, the dogs of war would be unleashed
.
I disagree, Russ is not Grimnar and would probably De-throne the wolf lord quickly.
Russ was an instrument of death the emperor called upon many times (dog jokes aside) and was used to remove two other primarchs before he was tricked into hunting down magnus (damn you horus!!!!)
Russ wasn't stupid, he had been called to remove primarchs before and didn't question the call when it came again. He was a murderer and his brothers knew it. I don't think Russ really gave half a gak about humans just getting his mission done through violence.
IE:
Protect the human city!
Russ murders all of the attackers while using the city as bait allowing minimal casualties
He might snap at the high lords giving him gak, but really why would they? A first founding chapter that already demonstrated they will fight the inquisition without the primarch, what could the high lords possibly say about russ other than calling him a heretic that would bother him?
He wouldn't de throne grimnar. Grimnar would jump out of the position at first sight of Russ
I think that if any Primarch were to return it could cause issues for the Imperium depending on how they went about rejoining it. Also it would all depend on how the High Lords themselves react seeing as how none would have been around when there were Primarchs. Would they just accept the news or would they be extremely suspect and go to eliminate the Primarch. They might attempt to do that anyway to try and hold on to their power. Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity. I think the Primarchs returning wouldn't cause the issues, it would be the High Lords and the Inquisition.
Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.
Pilau Rice wrote: Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.
That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?
Khonsu wrote: Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.
Pilau Rice wrote: Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.
That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?
Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.
How lame. So the chaos gods can buff a mortal up to near godlike status, but making a chibi-Primarch is beyond their reach? Jeez, where’s Fabius when you need him.
Khonsu wrote: Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.
True, but you might have a Reign of Blood situation start, or something along those lines.
And who would be succeeding who? The High Lords have maintained the Imperium for the past 10 thousand years, would the Primarchs have a claim to it after such a long period of absence? Of course they do, being the sons of the Emperor, but would the High Lords see it like that?
Khonsu wrote: Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.
True, but you might have a Reign of Blood situation start, or something along those lines.
And who would be succeeding who? The High Lords have maintained the Imperium for the past 10 thousand years, would the Primarchs have a claim to it after such a long period of absence? Of course they do, being the sons of the Emperor, but would the High Lords see it like that?
The Primarchs are living Gods by 40k standards, If you think the High Lords have the pull to resist them you are sorely mistaken.
I doubt Regiments and Marines would fight a true, Living son of the Emperor, A Demi-God.
That is unless they'd somehow convince them he's Chaos consumed or spin some bs tale.
Khonsu wrote: Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.
True, but you might have a Reign of Blood situation start, or something along those lines.
And who would be succeeding who? The High Lords have maintained the Imperium for the past 10 thousand years, would the Primarchs have a claim to it after such a long period of absence? Of course they do, being the sons of the Emperor, but would the High Lords see it like that?
I'm not sure the primarchs ever had a claim to lead the Imperium. The Emperor was giving the High Lords power over the primarchs during the Great Crusade, Horus still had operational command of the crusade but policy was being set by the High Lords regardless of the primarchs' protests. I think Guilliman was given as much power as he was after the Heresy because the High Lords were scared, more or less.
EDIT: I forget which HH novel it was in, but there was a mention of how in the Emperor's absence the High Lords speak with his authority, that means over the primarchs as well.
I'm not sure the primarchs ever had a claim to lead the Imperium. The Emperor was giving the High Lords power over the primarchs during the Great Crusade, Horus still had operational command of the crusade but policy was being set by the High Lords regardless of the primarchs' protests. I think Guilliman was given as much power as he was after the Heresy because the High Lords were scared, more or less.
EDIT: I forget which HH novel it was in, but there was a mention of how in the Emperor's absence the High Lords speak with his authority, that means over the primarchs as well.
Pilau Rice wrote: Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.
That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?
Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.
Wasn't it more like Mephiston doubted that Arkio was Sanguinus reborn and challenged him to test if it could be true? Then the tactical marine -Arkio's brother, right? - steps forward and asks the for the right to challenge Arkio first, which Mephiston allows, and is able to wound Arkio - the blood angel with wings - and black blood spills forth revealing his corruption which Arkio himself was unaware of. Arkio then fled the scene, and long story short, Arkio accepts death as the only possible course of redemption?
Pilau Rice wrote: Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.
That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?
Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.
Wasn't it more like Mephiston doubted that Arkio was Sanguinus reborn and challenged him to test if it could be true? Then the tactical marine -Arkio's brother, right? - steps forward and asks the for the right to challenge Arkio first, which Mephiston allows, and is able to wound Arkio - the blood angel with wings - and black blood spills forth revealing his corruption which Arkio himself was unaware of. Arkio then fled the scene, and long story short, Arkio accepts death as the only possible course of redemption?
No, Mephiston knew Arkio was tainted. But he wanted to prove to all of the Blood Angels that had chosen to follow Arkio that he was not Sanguinius reborn, that is why Mephiston challenged him to single combat. If Arkio was truly the primarch reborn than he would have no trouble defeating Mephiston. Rafen stepped forward and asked for the privilege, which Mephiston gave him.
ImAGeek wrote: He didn't know if the Emperor was around or not. It was a contingency plan for if Terra had already fallen.
Well exactly, but don't you think he will consider terra in its current state fallen already? If he was considering leaving before the emperor was dead, why would he stick around now?
ImAGeek wrote: He didn't know if the Emperor was around or not. It was a contingency plan for if Terra had already fallen.
Well exactly, but don't you think he will consider terra in its current state fallen already? If he was considering leaving before the emperor was dead, why would he stick around now?
He wasn't considering leaving. He was basically making a new Terra, a new nexus point for the Imperium if Terra and the Emperor had fallen. He wasn't making a new empire, he was making a plan to continue the Imperium if Terra had been lost.
The Inquisitiorial Representative would be automatically suspicious of any freshly returned Primarch. Their reasoning would be simple:- primarchs have fallen before, which means they can fall again. What's more, it's been 10,000 years since the Heresy, plenty of time for a Primarch's character to change. The primarchs are now unknown quantities. They have a store of moral credit from their past heroism, but would be as suspect as any Marine.
The Fabricator-General would likely be neutral. The Mechanicus worship the Emperor as the Machine God, and so they owe no deference to any mere Primarch necessarily. But logic would dictate that a Primarch could be a powerful ally, with potential knowledge of long lost designs and technologies, especially if the returned Primarch is Vulkan. So benign neutrality would be their position, with bias in favour of Vulkan.
The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorium would be in the same position as the Inquisitorial Representative.
The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica would be completely neutral in most cases, but potentially opposed to Russ due to his bias against psykers.
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Arbites would be sympathetic, neutral, or biased against depending on the Primarch. Khan and Russ would be wild cards they wouldn't like, Dorn, Guilliman and the Lion would represent law and order that they'd approve of, and Vulkan or Corax would be neutrals.
The Master of the Astronomican would be in the same position of the Master of the Astra Telepathica, as would the Envoy of the Navigators.
The Ecclesiarch of the Ministorum would be in a dicey position. If he was a true believer, he would instantly make way for and side with any primarch. If he's not, they're the greatest threat to his position. So either devoutly allied with, or opposed to, no in the middle.
The Master of the Administratum would be in general favour of any primarch that did not generally interfere with the smooth administrative running of the Imperium. So they'd most likely be biased against Dorn and Guilliman, but totally cool with someone like Vulkan.
Meanwhile the more transitional members would be reasonably well inclined. So the Sororitas Abbess would be a dedicated Ally of any Primarch as a true believer, the Lord Commander and Admirals would automatically defer to a Primarch as the most skilled commander possible, the Custodes Commander would be a positively inclined neutral, and so on.
As such, Vulkan would seem to be the least disruptive, as he has more natural allies, and few natural enemies, followed by Corax. Russ and Khan would have enemies, but only a large range of them if they started interfering (turning neutral dislike into opposition), which is debatable on whether they would. Guilliman, Dorn, and the Lion on the other hand, whilst they'd naturally receive tremendous opposition from the Master of the Administratum, would actually not have that many enemies. The Master of the Administratum would despise them, but the psykers and mechanicum would be neutral, the Arbites in favour, and the inquisition/assassinorium no better or worse than they would be with any other Primarch.
So to conclude:-
The absolute worse possibility would be Russ deciding he wants to run things. He'd raise practically every Lord against him. The Inquisition/Assassinorium would view him as a threat to the very Imperium, the Masters of the Astronomican, Telepathica, and Navigator Envoy are psykers and have massive issues with him as a result, the Administraum Master would oppose the interference, the Arbites Marshall would dislike the chaos, and the Mechanicus would logically side with the majority.
Pilau Rice wrote: Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.
That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?
Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.
I really think this thread is missing something.
IF one of the primarchs came back. First he would come back and first take control of his chapter right. All of the chapters would figure out if he was in fact him and would embrace him. Any chapter that wouldnt?(I cant think of any).
All right, great. Some of the successor chapters might have some deference to their geneseed, but they arent gonna cross the high lords for it(doing so is what made the traitor marines traitor. They followed primarch over Empire)
So now what. Is it assumed that any primarch coming back is going to automatically be installed as a high lord of terra? Are each and every one of the primarchs going to make an issue of things and try and force themselves into power?
Some of the primarchs left. They likely left because they didnt like the way the IoM was being run under the high lords. If they had wanted to try and press the issue and run more of the Empire themselves, they would have done it 10,000 years ago. They are only going to return when the time is desperate.
Some of the primarchs are dead, or close to dead. Even if they came back, I doubt they would immidiately quest for power over all of mankind.
They are the loyalist primarchs because they elected to ultimately serve rather than rule. If they come back, they would probably still elect to serve rather than rule.
Now if they did come back, I think that would cause some counter movements in the EoT. Some of the traitor primarchs that have been sitting around not doing much might band together and work with Abby to renew the long war. That might FORCE the high lords hands into giving any able bodied loyalist primarch some power to fix things.
You're also assuming they would come back with the intention of destroying the Imperium and arguing against that point. That wasn't the question asked.
Think how their return would cause problems that could be catastrophic to the workings of the Imperium.
The return of Roboute Guilliman would throw the biggest wrench into the working of the Imperium. He would see that the system of government that he set up had failed and would begin a reformation. When the high lords of terra resist, this could lead to a destructive conflict as he recalls his legion, the Ultramarines and all of their numerous successor chapters.
None of the other primarchs, except perhaps Dorn, would bother trying to reform the Imperium. They would either continue to serve it while upholding their own ideals or would secede. If Dorn were to try and change the Imperium, he would be defeated. The breakup of his legion and the control of which legions make successor chapters would prevent him from mustering a force. It would be a repeat of the events following the Horus Heresy.
Guiliman's return would alter the Imperium as we know it, whether it turns out better or worse than it is now depends on who wins the inevitable conflict.
None of the other primarchs, except perhaps Dorn, would bother trying to reform the Imperium.
Russ might consider it, if he felt the High Lords had grown corrupt. If the Inquisition tried to pull a trick on him like they did the Great Wolf on Armageddon, Russ might very conclude they needed to be disbanded, and begin to take....steps.
Remember, Russ is loyal only to the Emperor. If he sees them as having deviated from what he thinks the Emperor would have wanted, he wouldn't hesitate to strike them down.
Khonsu wrote: Russ destroys knowledge, As any common simpleton would, I doubt the Mechanicus would favor him in any way.
If ordered or necessary, sure. This isn't Angron, after all.
No, he did, during the Heresy. It was one of Magnuses main beefs with him, that he didn't care for the preservation of knowledge, and the Space Wolves would just destroy any receptacles of knowledge they came across.
I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
True, the skepticism would be there. There would also be fanatics. In the event of any Primarch's return, chaos would reign for a while. I just wonder at which one would cause irreparable damage simply by stepping through the door.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
That's a really bad comparison. Primarchs are regularly described as having an almost palpable aura that sets them apart, not to mention their great physical size, quickness of intellect, and skill in battle. When you can make the breath of veteran space marines catch in their throat, and practically freeze mortals with your sheer presence, I don't think you're going to have many people saying, 'He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!', so to speak.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
That's a really bad comparison. Primarchs are regularly described as having an almost palpable aura that sets them apart, not to mention their great physical size, quickness of intellect, and skill in battle. When you can make the breath of veteran space marines catch in their throat, and practically freeze mortals with your sheer presence, I don't think you're going to have many people saying, 'He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!', so to speak.
Yeah but I'm sure other things could have that effect on people in 40k too, psychic stuff, Slaanesh daemons, and how many random citizens are going to see them in battle, or see their intellect and stuff? They'd just probably hear 'oh some guy turned up the other side of the planet claiming he's a primarch'.
Yeah but I'm sure other things could have that effect on people in 40k too, psychic stuff, Slaanesh daemons, and how many random citizens are going to see them in battle, or see their intellect and stuff? They'd just probably hear 'oh some guy turned up the other side of the planet claiming he's a primarch'.
Two points.
Firstly, if Dorn shows up with a thousand Imperial Fists and a thousand Crimson Fists in tow, nobody is really going to turn around and say, 'Yeah, but PROVE you're their Primarch!'.
Secondly, no leader needs to 'prove' their existence to that many people at the end of the day. Rogal Dorn will lock lock himself in with planetary governors and military commanders, who will then say, 'He's the real deal' (because no planetary governor is going to look at Rogal Dorn himself surrounded by his bodyguard and say, 'Prove it') and disseminate the facts to the rest of the populace with appropriate picts.
I mean, I've never seen David Cameron, but I'm reasonably sure he exists, and formulate my political views accordingly. The Imperium will be no different. You could say that DC is different to a figure not seen for ten millenia, but as you've so aptly pointed out, this is a different universe altogether, in which immortality/the next best thing is a known fact (i.e. every space marine). So it's really not that unbelievable.
None of the other primarchs, except perhaps Dorn, would bother trying to reform the Imperium.
Russ might consider it, if he felt the High Lords had grown corrupt. If the Inquisition tried to pull a trick on him like they did the Great Wolf on Armageddon, Russ might very conclude they needed to be disbanded, and begin to take....steps.
Remember, Russ is loyal only to the Emperor. If he sees them as having deviated from what he thinks the Emperor would have wanted, he wouldn't hesitate to strike them down.
Exactly. Russ was the Emperor's executioner. He was extremely loyal, but only to the Emperor himself. Russ would never serve anyone, he is the stubborn kind of guy that gaks on people telling him what to do. He even defied the Emperor when they first met.
If Russ were to return and feel that the High Lords no longer represent the Emperor's will, he would be very likely to take action against them. Not to mention that he also has quite a temper. When he hears what the Inquisition and Grey Knights attacked the Space Wolves, he could very well fly into a great rage and attempt to take revenge.
Desubot wrote: I want to agree with Russ being the worst possible one.
He would probably be a horrible politician and would probably grind it out with the HLoT.
His special snowflake legion would get big and freak out the rest of the imperium (although i forget if he was for or against rowboats book)
He was definitely against right? Or the SW would follow the codex, when they didn't even break the legion up.
Desubot wrote: I want to agree with Russ being the worst possible one.
He would probably be a horrible politician and would probably grind it out with the HLoT.
His special snowflake legion would get big and freak out the rest of the imperium (although i forget if he was for or against rowboats book)
He was definitely against right? Or the SW would follow the codex, when they didn't even break the legion up.
Then yeah
He is 100% the worst possible person to come back on the imperial side.
Melissia wrote: None of them. Though some would create more chaos (little c, not big C Chaos) than others.
I dont know
i think girly man was a decent politician. i think if anyone he could smooosh his way with the HLoT and actually work with them rather than against them.
The rest i can easily see plenty of friction with the powers at be.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
Yeah but the citizens of the imperium know of the primarchs existance. They know they were real. They honor the name of Sanguinius and go see the body of Roboute. In a world of 8 foot tall super humans and aliens, I might be more likely to believe it was a Primarch than if an angel showed up
Melissia wrote: None of them. Though some would create more chaos (little c, not big C Chaos) than others.
I dont know
i think girly man was a decent politician. i think if anyone he could smooosh his way with the HLoT and actually work with them rather than against them.
The rest i can easily see plenty of friction with the powers at be.
Oh, I coudl see tons of friction. But they wouldn't want to destroy the Imperium itself. Reform maybe, but not destroy. Some of them aren't competent enough to reform without harming the Imperium, but none of them would actually destroy it.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
Yeah but the citizens of the imperium know of the primarchs existance. They know they were real. They honor the name of Sanguinius and go see the body of Roboute. In a world of 8 foot tall super humans and aliens, I might be more likely to believe it was a Primarch than if an angel showed up
Yeah it was a bad analogy, that's been pointed out.
Melissia wrote: None of them. Though some would create more chaos (little c, not big C Chaos) than others.
I dont know
i think girly man was a decent politician. i think if anyone he could smooosh his way with the HLoT and actually work with them rather than against them.
The rest i can easily see plenty of friction with the powers at be.
Oh, I coudl see tons of friction. But they wouldn't want to destroy the Imperium itself. Reform maybe, but not destroy. Some of them aren't competent enough to reform without harming the Imperium, but none of them would actually destroy it.
You're working under the impression that the loyalist who returns would intend to destroy the Imperium.
I would argue that both Russ and Guiliman would be equally disruptive. Russ for bellicose and belligerent reasons, and Guliman because of pride.
Russ would see the travesty that the imperium was in and either secede (best case scenario) or attempt to remove the HLOT and start a new Civil war (worse case scenario)
Guliman would be enraged at the state of the imperial government and would at best try to reorganize it by force of personality, and at worse by force of arms.
I base these speculations on the established fluff on russ' and Guiliman's personalities and the inherent pride arrogance and sense of entitlement that most (maybe excluding Corax or Vulkan) loyalist primarchs would have about the imperium and government in general (I'm going to catch a lot of hate for this comparison) similar to the way Viserys Targaryen views the Baratheons. Thile the HLOT are not usurpers, that have perverted guliman's setup and by extension the emperor's vision for his empire.
He literally wouldn't take the helm of his own empire because he knew that he wouldn't be able to command his forces and be a figure head at the same time. he rather had lionel or sanguine do it.
Edit: He also didnt want to do it because he didnt want to come off as taking over and "creating a new empire" by taking up the mantle of emperor. i doubt he would do cause any sort of trouble
I have a sneaky feeling Guilliman woiuld head straight to Terra, sit down with High Lords, and say, 'Right. I don't like the look of the Imperium, and it's not what me daddy would have wanted. So let's work out where the whole thing is going from now on with a minimum of strife, mmkay?'
Guilliman could be a diplomat as well as a soldier. He'd probably change things for the better, but it would take years of careful diplomacy. He wouldn't risk open conflict unless absolutely necessary, because being a strategic genius, he would well be able to grasp the implications for humanity of another galaxy wide civil war at this stage (anyone hear the word 'extinction'?).
Ketara wrote: He wouldn't risk open conflict unless absolutely necessary, because being a strategic genius, he would well be able to grasp the implications for humanity of another galaxy wide civil war at this stage (anyone hear the word 'extinction'?).
Except he almost did when Dorn refused to accept the Codex Astares and break up his legion. This was immediately following the Horus Heresy when the Imperium was arguably weaker than it is now. He was willing to use force to the point where another civil war looked inevitable, only stopping when Dorn backed down.
Roboute understands diplomacy, but he is still a man that lacks subtlety and patience. He would risk open conflict if he thought he could win.
Ketara wrote: He wouldn't risk open conflict unless absolutely necessary, because being a strategic genius, he would well be able to grasp the implications for humanity of another galaxy wide civil war at this stage (anyone hear the word 'extinction'?).
Except he almost did when Dorn refused to accept the Codex Astares and break up his legion. This was immediately following the Horus Heresy when the Imperium was arguably weaker than it is now. He was willing to use force to the point where another civil war looked inevitable, only stopping when Dorn backed down.
Roboute understands diplomacy, but he is still a man that lacks subtlety and patience. He would risk open conflict if he thought he could win.
But that's the key here. Open conflict, or in this case, civil war, would have no winners. With the Hive Fleets chomping at the bit, the traitor legions always plotting something, and half a dozen other xenos wildcards, the Imperium is too fragile to withstand a civil war. The amounts of resources it would consume would leave the Imperium wide open to being absorbed by the Hive Fleet.
Guilliman wouldn't take the risk of open conflict unless he had absolutely no choice, e.g. the Inquisition moving directly to purge him and Ultramar. He'd look at the situation, realise how precarious the existence of mankind has come to be, and use diplomacy instead. Guilliman is not an idiot, he's a Primarch with an eidetic memory, and a genius for grand strategy. As you yourself have put it, he would only risk open conflict if he thought he could win, but with the additional caveat of, 'If he thought it was necessary'.
I doubt he would find it necessary enough to immediately launch precipitate actions that would risk the extinction of all humanity.
For me the most likely loyalist primarch to return would be the Lion. He's just asleep deep within the Rock, waiting to be woken up by the Watchers in the Dark.
Really not sure what his agenda would be aside from helping to stop Chaos at the 11th hour. Outside of stopping chaos, it could possibly damage the Imperium if he decides to bring all his successor chapters 'officially' back together under a single Legion banner - Dark Angels do this anyway, but he would unlikely keep it hidden. The Lords of Terra certainly won't like that one bit and could potentially cause a kind of civil war throughout the Imperium.
On the tabletop, the return of the Lion would finally give Dark Angel players something to be happy about as the return of their primarch would really boost them. "Nephilim what? Who gives a s**t, I've got the Lion!"
ImAGeek wrote: Is it not Luther that's actually asleep in the Rock? Is that not their big secret? Or have I got that the wrong way?
Nope, they have both asleep in the Rock, but Lion is in a super secret cranny somewhere by the Watchers in the Dark
Yep that's correct. Also, where Luther's existence is known by the Chapter Master, i.e. Azrael, nobody within the Dark Angels (besides the watchers in the dark), know about the Lion's existence within their huge floating fortress monastery.
Miradorm wrote: In my opinion the first spot any returning Primarch coming to Terra would be is to have an audience with the Emperor first and not the High Lords.
I was making some assumptions in my statement, they are somewhat logical.
The Emperor "should" know one of his Primarchs is coming to Terra. That should be enough to get his attention to inform the leader of the Custodes to have him, and probably the High Lords as well brought before him. From there I have no idea the outcome.
If by chance the Emperor doesn't summon him then I do think the High Lords will try to stop or hinder the Primarch as much as possible.
