ImAGeek wrote: I think less models should have it, not more.
This.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But if you're going to go by the Eldar precedent then you might as well give lasguns STR D. There's no sense in doing things halfway, just skip to the inevitable outcome and we can move on to giving out DD weapons for the really big guns.
The Klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork) could become S - D. Unless the Gorka/Morkanauts themselves become super-heavies, I doubt such a change would have a huge impact on the game. Even with Destroyer weapons, the 'nauts are slow to get into combat.
I am also in the less basket.
Though I think the IK should have a D ranged weapon, and SM/CSM bikes to be exactly like eldar ones, and devastators amd obliterators to have super cheap d weapons.
Oh wait, no I dont, then my armies get more boring.
Blacksails wrote:feth it, Guardsmen have S: D lasguns.
Put D back into Apoc only territory.
Charles Rampant wrote:Things in Epic.
I partially agree with these fellas. S: D is a step too big for common 40k... but acceptable in LoW. I just think LoW should have a minimum list points (like in 30k) before being fielded. Having 1 HQ, 2 Troops and a Titan in 1000p games is ridiculous.
I was told that in RTIG had underslug vortex launchers on every lasgun. I could settle for a str D small blast on every lasgun. Doesn't have to be a str D vortex.
Makumba wrote: I was told that in RTIG had underslug vortex launchers on every lasgun. I could settle for a str D small blast on every lasgun. Doesn't have to be a str D vortex.
Incidentally, it is beyond me why Combi-las isn't a thing for guard veterans. Lasgun with combi-grenade launcher (working exactly like a SM combi weapon) for 1 ppm on vets should be a thing. Oh, and obviously in this new world these grenades should be strength D, like, obviously.
I love how the question is all serious, and we've gotten so jaded with bad design choices that all we can do is joke about it... It's some "laugh-or-you'll-cry" stuff right there, let me tell you
No unit should have Strength D. It's stupid and random and game-breaking. S10, AP1, with Instant Death is more than enough to simulate super-powerful weaponry.
docdoom77 wrote: No unit should have Strength D. It's stupid and random and game-breaking. S10, AP1, with Instant Death is more than enough to simulate super-powerful weaponry.
I despise Strength D.
Instant Death does nothing against vehicles/buildings, which is partly the reason why S: D was introduced.
Also, Deathstrike should be S: D. It fires once per game, starting after the first turn, and can't move. If anything deserves D on a ranged attack, it's the Deathstrike.
docdoom77 wrote: No unit should have Strength D. It's stupid and random and game-breaking. S10, AP1, with Instant Death is more than enough to simulate super-powerful weaponry.
I despise Strength D.
Instant Death does nothing against vehicles/buildings, which is partly the reason why S: D was introduced.
Also, Deathstrike should be S: D. It fires once per game, starting after the first turn, and can't move. If anything deserves D on a ranged attack, it's the Deathstrike.
Simple way to fix that is to not introduce vehicles which require Strength D to be reliably taken care of.
It makes it unbalanced for any army which doesn't have as much access to the D.
I’ll agree that D belongs on LoW and in apocalypse. But if we are handing it out, here are my thoughts for the armies I play:
In the SM codex I don’t really see a place for it. The only thing that might work is for one of the brackets on the conversion beamer. If you want a melee option, the burning blade relic could go D, but probably shouldn’t. Same with the assault cent’s and/or Ironclad’s CC weapons. But that’s just shoehorning stuff in to say we’ve got some.
For Eldar, the big distort guns are both fluffy and mechanically closest. I don’t see it on the scythes without a re-work though. WK sword should be D. When the sword you are swinging is bigger then the tank you are hitting with it, you should cause some pain. And it’s not some random debris picked up to bludgeon foes, but a specific CC weapon designed by an advanced race.
Kanluwen wrote: There aren't very many vehicles which require D to be taken care of.
Volume of fire is an acceptable substitute in many cases for D.
So we didn't need Strength D in the first place then.
Not really.
Prior to Eldar it was really not widespread in terms of units and less so on units that can be taken in such large quantities(the Eldar FOC allows for you to take up to 12 Wraithknights for each Guardian host you take, which you can take a maximum of 3 Guardian Hosts. Two of the different Guardian Host formations mandate you take a Vaul's Wrath Support Battery, of which the D-Cannon is an option and seems to have been confirmed as having access to D. Another thing to twig to is that the Wraith-Constructs are standalone Wraithknights while the Wraith-Host Auxiliary option mandates a Wraithknight, 3 units of Wraithguard, a Wraithlord, and a Spirit Seer).
You had Knights with it on their melee weapon(not their ranged weapon), the Aquila Strongpoint had it on the Macro-Shell, and the Vortex Missile for the Strongpoint had it(with the caveat of it could 7 times over the course of the game but only once per turn).
That is all I can think of off the top of my head with referencing Forge World stuff.
I can see the argument for the Deathstrike having it. It only fires once a game, and that's if you get the right roll (I assume that's still the case). I mean it's a warhead almost the size of the vehicle carrying it, strD would make sense there.
It's also not so bad on melee weapons for big scaries like the Knight, because you can mitigate it by avoiding combat where possible.
docdoom77 wrote: No unit should have Strength D. It's stupid and random and game-breaking. S10, AP1, with Instant Death is more than enough to simulate super-powerful weaponry.
I despise Strength D.
Instant Death does nothing against vehicles/buildings, which is partly the reason why S: D was introduced.
Also, Deathstrike should be S: D. It fires once per game, starting after the first turn, and can't move. If anything deserves D on a ranged attack, it's the Deathstrike.
Well, it's simple, really... We kill the Vehicle rules.
I could see deathstrikes getting it, but I would love to see a 4th range band on Conversion Beamers - 72+" StrD, which seems to be a logical conclusion.
Yea uh hellooooo, deathstrike? I thought this would be pretty obvious but I don't think it will ever happen. Can't have IG getting good things unless there's a new kit can we?
In my opinion, Strength D, just as a 2++ save or W: 5+ models shouldn't be present in Warhammer 40k. It should be Apocalypse only, with some exceptions (Escalation etc). We shouldn't need Str: D to blast stuff open or to show that a unit is friggin' strong. There are tons of options that can be included in the design of a model to show its overwhelming firepower or earth-shattering cannonballs it spews, not just a static "anything touched by it gets fethed to oblivion". We're already planning to slowly troll the Eldar players into a guilt-ridden selling spree. Or we might just end up being adults about it and settle for playing something else and doing something else with our time.
im with the less models should get it rather than more.
However, rather than waiting for my army to get a load of D weapons and THEN saying that to try to keep it all to myself, I think if its gonna be there, you should at least be fair about it.
For guard I'm seeing the vanquisher cannon. Maybe the deathstrike missile launcher.
welshhoppo wrote: Why don't we just get rid of strength values and just have strength d across the board.
If everyone has the same thing. Then it must be perfectly balanced.
Would that turn 40K into 40D? 40 being the average number of S - D weaponry an army can bring.
While your at it CCWs could also be S - D. The we can call it 40DD. Would fit because it seems the a couple of the newer codexes(codexi?) were written by a couple bit ole' boobs.
Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your 40k captain speaking, we are approaching a patch of rules turbulence, a quick check under your seats will reveal str D weapons for one and all.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your 40k captain speaking, we are approaching a patch of rules turbulence, a quick check under your seats will reveal str D weapons for one and all.
Thank you for flying with airGW.
One the aircraft has levelled out, an AirGW RedShirt Rep will pass through the cabin to offer a selection of premium models. All major credit cards are accepted.
Since Eldar set a precedent, it goes without saying that every army will now need some access to it. Perhaps not to the same level that Eldar are rumored to be getting it, but at least one or 2 options.
If not for Eldar I'd say the only place these weapons should be found is on the terrain pieces that could be purched and things like that.
I'm honestly concerned about the books that came out before the Eldar book. It's not like Eldar is the first 8th edition book. Only Chaos and Dark Angels are left, right? So what are the other armies to do now?
Nvs wrote: Since Eldar set a precedent, it goes without saying that every army will now need some access to it. Perhaps not to the same level that Eldar are rumored to be getting it, but at least one or 2 options.
If not for Eldar I'd say the only place these weapons should be found is on the terrain pieces that could be purched and things like that.
I'm honestly concerned about the books that came out before the Eldar book. It's not like Eldar is the first 8th edition book. Only Chaos and Dark Angels are left, right? So what are the other armies to do now?
That assumes that GW has any idea about balance or that they buff each army equally. Which was demonstrably false considering in 6th we had Tau (strong), Eldar (strong), Space Marines (strong) then Tyranids.
[EDIT]: Misread your post to be that GW will give access to it to every army.
hmm, possibly death strike, I'm somewhat okay with it on the knights and similar set ups, though beyond that, this shouldn't become an acceptable norm.
If there is one relic in the space marine armory that should have strength D, then it is the Holy Orb Of Antioch. A one use grenade that you can throw 12" small blast. You can also use it against MC or vehicles at initiative. All chapters can buy one per army. Black Templars can get one per IC. 20 pts per orb.
I could see the Ork Killa Klaw from the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement having it for its special one hit attack. Same thing for the Hand of Darkness in the Black Legion supplement as well. Other than those really specific one hit cases in CC, where it is nowhere near reliable like consistent ranged D weapons, do I find it acceptable at some level.
Space Marines: - Vortex Grenades. They'll be in the next codex. There's literally no reasons for it not to be now.
- Vortex Missiles. Vehicle upgrade. Should replace the Hunter-Killer Missile.
- Force Commander. Orbital Strike is definitely a D-level of an attack.
Chaos Space Marines - Bolt of Change Psychic Power. It's been a Lascannon, a Beam Lascannon, and now should be changed up to Str D Beam.
- Abaddon's Sword. It used to be "I touch you and you die". Maybe it'll go back to being that.
- Mutilators. They have to move this plastic off the shelves somehow...
- Super-Ascended Daemon Princes. New more-Uber Daemon Prince that stands as tall as a Wraithknight or Mawloc. Gargantuan Creature that gains Stomp.
Imperial Guar - Basilisk Cannon, Earthshaker Rounds. Only firable in Barrage Mode, but they get rid of the whole minimum range thing.
- Deathstrike Missile. Can fire any turn after the first, one-use only.
- Master of the Fleet. Same as Force Commander.
Orks - Morkanaught/Gorkanaught. How else are they supposed to sell?
- Zzap Gunz that roll an 11 or 12 become Str D.
Master of the Fleet for Guard affects Reserve rolls.
Master of Ordnance is the one with the artillery strike; and yeah it should totally be Strength D.
It doesn't even Ignore Cover right now. Bump the price of the Master of Ordnance up, just give me MOAR PIEPLATE!
Kanluwen wrote: Master of the Fleet for Guard affects Reserve rolls.
Master of Ordnance is the one with the artillery strike; and yeah it should totally be Strength D.
It doesn't even Ignore Cover right now. Bump the price of the Master of Ordnance up, just give me MOAR PIEPLATE!
lol, man I immediately shortened this in my own head to "Give me MOAR PIE!"
ClassicCarraway wrote: Vindicare Assassin's turbo-penetrator round should definately be St D.
I think I'd disagree on this. But Fleshbane with Shred, Instant-Death, and to-wound rolls of 6 not allowing any saves of any kind (like StrD) would make sense (at the strongest level). They're strong, but I don't think the Turbo-Penetrator could take out a Stompa.
Wraithknights do NOT have Strength D. The Strength D on the Bloodthirster is a stupid design, because he cannot even revert pack to his normal attacks and will always strike at I1 while over-killing everything.
Both suggestions make no sense. Tau are already powerful enough without Strength D. Strength D should be reserved for especially powerful and important characters/units or super-heavies.
Also, Strength D is now more popular than before, with Vortex of Doom available to most psykers.
I see a very interesting idea put forward here. The Vanquisher is indeed a candidate to be converted into Strength D. The ammunition type right now is just bs. Given how the damage table on vehicles have been changed, it would take forever for a Vanquisher to bring down a Monolith.
With the vanquisher, it would be tempered by a low BS and the fact that if it missed, nothing happens. It is designed to be the super "hole puncher to blast holes through whatever but when it misses, there is no template. All the template D weapons mean that chances are, that if you miss, your still hitting and killing something. Might even make it worthwhile to take.
Hadnt thought of master of ordinance. I agree, blasts hitting that are designed to kill spaceships would indeed do a number on someone. I'd say up the cost of the guy on the ground and make it so it hits something once in a while. I think its the blast weapon least likely to ever hit anything.
Strength D should be restricted to massive superheavy weapons, and relatively rare even there.
Expanding such weaponry to lesser units devalues the larger units dramatically, makes for "i-win" buttons with cheaper units, and is nothing but power bloat.
they should be kept to only the specific special heavy equipment. But I have noticed that the eldar players are really keen on saying they shouldnt be handed out like candy and only super heavies should get them...AFTER they got their candy handed to them. Things that make you go "hmmmm...".
Whatever is done with them in regards to armies should be done evenly across the board to keep at least some semblance of power balance. NOT give one single army an abundance of them and then cut them off from all others. if you think you hear players crying about the power of the eldar now, just think how bad it would be if the eldar players got their way and only they ad access to D weapons.
bibotot wrote: Wraithknights do NOT have Strength D. The Strength D on the Bloodthirster is a stupid design, because he cannot even revert pack to his normal attacks and will always strike at I1 while over-killing everything.
Actually, Wraithknights will have Str D with the new codex, the picture from the new WD confirming this is all over the internet.
As for the BT rules, I think it was purely intentional and is good game design. You get a combat beast that hits w/Str D but as a balance, he ALWAYS strikes last, even if you give him another weapon to try and circumnavigate the intended balancing rule. Mine managed to kill Shrike and an assault squad in one round, and blew up a predator the next, so he earned his points back and then some (the resulting explosion actually killed the BT sadly, piss poor save rolling on my part)
Berzerkers with Str D Khornate Heavychainaxes of Gore, in the shooting phase they can throw the Axes at their targets, the profil is 2D6 Hits with Str D at 16"...
More seriously, a part for Warlord Titan, and equivalant units, no one should have D Str weaponry.
bibotot wrote: I see a very interesting idea put forward here. The Vanquisher is indeed a candidate to be converted into Strength D. The ammunition type right now is just bs. Given how the damage table on vehicles have been changed, it would take forever for a Vanquisher to bring down a Monolith.
Not really. The vanquisher is just a LRBT with a longer barrel and anti-tank shells, it shouldn't have the same firepower as a Shadowsword (a massive superheavy tank with the main gun of a titan). The real fix the vanquisher needs is to get its old rules back where it had a coax gun option (twin-link the main gun if the coax gun hits) and could still fire the standard LRBT's blast shells. Then it's a LRBT with a bonus (and a price to match), not a cheap single-purpose specialist.
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EVIL INC wrote: Hadnt thought of master of ordinance. I agree, blasts hitting that are designed to kill spaceships would indeed do a number on someone. I'd say up the cost of the guy on the ground and make it so it hits something once in a while. I think its the blast weapon least likely to ever hit anything.
Since when is the MoO firing blasts designed to kill spaceships? The MoO is just a guy with a radio and a Basilisk on the other end.
if I remember correctly, the blasts are coming from orbit as the ships fire down at locations called in by the MoO.
The vanquisher is more than just a longer barrel with a bigger shell. it is a specific shell designed to punch holes. if it was just a longer barrel with a bigger shell, it would be a blast template weapon. The damage output is the same as a shadowsword just covering a fine point instead of a large blast. The shadowsword is able to fire a larger version of the shell that covers a large area instead of just the small point the vanquisher cannon is capable of.
EVIL INC wrote: if I remember correctly, the blasts are coming from orbit as the ships fire down at locations called in by the MoO.
You don't remember correctly. The MoO is just an officer from an IG artillery unit attached to a CCS to act as a spotter and improve the artillery's accuracy.
The vanquisher is more than just a longer barrel with a bigger shell. it is a specific shell designed to punch holes. if it was just a longer barrel with a bigger shell, it would be a blast template weapon. The damage output is the same as a shadowsword and all, just condensed to a fine point as the chassis of the tank carrying the weapon and the barrel size is not large enough to do it on the same scale as the shadowsword. This is why its weaker in that instead of a large blast, it can only do that damage on a small point thus the non-blast hit or miss.
1) You're ignoring the fluff of the LR vanquisher. Since it was first invented it has been a LRBT with a longer barrel and sabot rounds. It's more effective at killing vehicles than a normal LRBT, but not by a huge margin. In the original rules it had 2D6 added together armor penetration vs. 2D6 pick the highest for a standard LRBT firing (non-blast) anti-tank shells vs. 2D6 pick the lowest for a LRBT firing (5" blast) explosive shells. That's clearly better firepower against vehicles, but it was never supposed to be some kind of magic armor-ignoring gun that nothing can stop.
2) You're ignoring the fact that we have an example of a non-blast D-weapon already: the heavy railguns on the Tigershark and Manta. These are massive titan-scale weapons that are almost as big as an entire LRBT. The vanquisher clearly doesn't have that kind of weapon, so STR D is not appropriate.
Can you cite page numbers and books to enlighten us?
Nm, I see, I misread the MoO It has been a while since I dug out the older guard codex. i had "mentally merged" the mention of lance batteries on ships with the master of fleet with the MoO.
However, with the inconsistance of the fluff GW has maintained (or not lol), the source of those shots could easily be swapped to be from the support ships and still make sense adding a D weapon to the arsenal of the guard witch could help them out. Of course, with it's inaccuracy, I wouldnt bet on them being used a lot as it would be paying for a D shot that MIGHT hit something and be sourced in a paper squad and easily be removed.
"The Master of Ordinance, for example, utilises complex equipment to coordinate devastating long range artillery strikes from support weapons for beyond the front line;", (Codex: Astra Militarum, pg. 31)
Sorry custom, I ninjad you as I went and dug out my older codex where they were introduced as units to be used.
Were you able to find the source that says that the vanquisher cannon just fires a mere battle cannon round from a longer barrel? Not that I'm saying the vanquisher should have a D strength of course. it seems some are intentionally misreading my post as though i am in order to have an excuse to instigate an argument. I put the vanquisher out (and someone else put out the Moo but I supported) as being the units that would be the easiest to give a D strength to if they were going to be added in order to maintain a balance between codices.
As I said, they shouldnt be handed out like candy and I would support them being apoc only or superheavyes and super heavy walkers (someone earlier suggested normal walkers along with super heavies) only. If they are going to include them in "normal" units as it appears so far they are doing with eldar and if they are going to do the same with other new codices as they come out, I feel it would be best to put them on units that either make sense as is or to units that can easily be "tweaked" without a large fluff change to "justify" it.
So, Peregrine, if the guard were to "have" to have a few D strength weapons put into the codex in this way, what weapons would YOU choose to have it put on? I chose the deathstrike and vanquisher and supported a nomination for MoO. What would be YOUR top 3 if you had to choose without having the option to not choose any?
EVIL INC wrote: So, Peregrine, if the guard were to "have" to have a few D strength weapons put into the codex in this way, what weapons would YOU choose to have it put on?
Lasgun (both melee and shooting profiles), mortar, and flamer. If we're at the point of putting multiple D-weapons on "normal" units just to satisfy some bizarre obsession with having lots of D-weapons then the game is utterly broken and I might as well break it so thoroughly that nobody can pretend things are ok.
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EVIL INC wrote: Were you able to find the source that says that the vanquisher cannon just fires a mere battle cannon round from a longer barrel?
No, because I never said that. The vanquisher has a long-barreled battlecannon with sabot rounds. It's more effective than (hard-tipped explosive) anti-tank rounds from a conventional battlecannon, but it's not in a completely separate class of weapon.
So you actually think that if we were forced to accept them that those weapons would be the most likely candidates. Ok, if you feel that those weapons are the most likely, your stance on that has been noted. I respectfully disagree.
The *only* Codex unit that I can possibly think of, at all, that should have Strength D, is the Deathstrike, and that really should come at an appreciable points hike.
For a one-shot ICBM that somehow has been hamfisted onto a front line battle, sure, that'd at least make sense, even if it's still piss poor game design.
Personally, I think Deathstrikes should be S: D apocalyptic blast with unlimited range but restricted to apoc only. It has no business being in your typival game of 40k.
I agree on the deathstrike. To me it seems to be something I would shoot as the rest of my army advanced in order to soften up the enemy for the rest of my army to mop up when they got there.
Ijust put it forth as one of the few options that could be tweaked to have a D strength with the least impact on the fluff IF we had to accept a D strength weapon in order to maintain some semblance of balance.
There honestly arent a lot of options within the currently available units in the codex that would justify it or be tweaked fluffwise to justify it. Unless your think as some do that the lasguns are really that powerfull. I have not had that much luck killing tanks with them and it would be a HUGE change in the fluff to suddenly change them to be that powerfull not to mention that IMHO, there are weapons such as the deathstrike that would be far better candidates.
Of course, knowing GW, they will likely introduce an all new weapon/vehicle which will have it that we wont currently have in order to force us to buy it to have somewhat of a chance at winning a game or two.
Philosophically, I think every faction needs a unit or a battle brother like Imperial Knight / Bloodthirster / Wraithknight -- a mini titan with strength D.
It's just unfair for one side to have this in their tools, and not another side, without some stupid fluff-destroying ally (like Tyranids or Necron with Imperial Knights... yeah, right).
By all means, let Eldar have sole Codex access to StrD. Then perhaps my fellow Tau players won't get grief over our armies. Especially if the rules for StrD gets removed from the 8th Edition Rulebook.
EVIL INC wrote: Unless your think as some do that the lasguns are really that powerfull.
Nobody thinks they're that powerful fluff-wise. The whole point of my "give lasguns STR D" argument is that the whole idea of giving out STR D to random "normal" units is so unbelievably stupid that you might as well just give it to lasguns and make "this game sucks, we're going to deliberately ruin it" official. Both STR D lasguns and STR D vanquishers are terrible ideas, so there's really no point in nitpicking about which one is just slightly worse.
There is a PM function for personal side conversations. Feel free to use them.
However, if you wish to join the topic, you have not answered the question at all
Fist, I agree with you in that they should not be handed out like candy. You are purposely ignoring that fact The question is..
IF the guard had to accept D weapons in order to maintain some sort of balance with your eldar army, what would be your choices that would be the most likely candidates without altering the fluff. You chose lasguns and flamers. Fair enough.
Others chose diferent options. We respectfully disagree with your choice of lasguns and flamers. Fair enough. We think others would be more likely candidates.
I think s d should not exist at all. That being said, if normal units are going to gain str d weapons the nids exocrine packs the bio plasmic cannon. Probably the gun that should be str d.
Thankfully, without FW, necrons only have one StrD attack and there is only a 1/6 chance of it happening everytime the C'tan shoots. Every codex can reasonably have one or two StrD weapons for stupid high costs, but other than that I say leave Str D to apoc.
I believe that that is something that, so far, it appears we all agree on. D weapons should be few and far between. some super heavies, super heavy walkers and apoc rather than being tossed like candy at a parade.
With the teaser leak of the eldar talking about D weapons being plentifull in the upcoming eldar, many people are wondering how other armies will be able to keep up.
First, I think we should not get overly excited without seeing the details. The D weapons mightbe super expensive in the eldar codex or nerfed in terms of delivery or a variety of other things. Also, having more than any other army doesnt mean there will be dozens of them in every list. A very small number of them is a lot. After all, currently, the only army I can think of where they are "plentiful" is knights with every model having one. But then, your looking at less than 6 and all of them being close combat only. Lets just see what the eldar have before making judgements....
Then, if we see, they do have the ability to reasonably take plenty of them, how will the other codices come back?
The thread is a discussion of "WHAT IF". It is NOT saying we agree ther should be plenty of them, it is designed to ask us our opinions of which weapons we (non-eldar) armies think would be the most likely candidates to get the D (that just sounds all kind of wrong but you know what i mean) IF (and ONLY if) we were forced to take the D (still sounding wrong but again, you know what i mean). Putting forth names of weapons doesnt mean we think they should get it, just mentioning ones we think would be the most likely candidates with the least fluff disruption.
EVIL INC wrote: IF the guard had to accept D weapons in order to maintain some sort of balance with your eldar army
And that's a broken premise because power creep is a terrible way to design a game. If we reach the point where we're giving out lots of balance mistakes (which aren't at all supported by the fluff) to make up for the Eldar balance mistake then the game is already ruined. The only sensible decision here is to change the Eldar rules to remove their excessive D-weapons and restore D-weapons to their proper place as rare LoW-only titan killers.
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EVIL INC wrote: most likely candidates with the least fluff disruption.
And the point is that hardly any of the proposed candidates are at all fluffy. There's no real fluff difference between guardsmen with STR D fists and LR Vanquishers with STR D guns, they're both completely unfluffy and nitpicking which one is slightly worse is pointless. If you put either of them in the game it's a concession that fluff no longer matters and it's all about power creep and stupid rules.
I would say, what other additions would be possible to even the field without adding D to a plethora of weapons? What other options could we have if the D is officially introduced to "normal armies" as the eldar leak leads us to believe? I've noticed that the skittarri offer us new weapons with special abilities, can we look at that route as an option for some armies?
We have one player that seems to think his eldar should be given D weaponry without balancing it among the other armies. That is fine. What do the rest of us think could be done to keep some sort of atleast a semblance of balance.
EVIL INC wrote: We have one player that seems to think his eldar should be given D weaponry without balancing it among the other armies.
Nice straw man. Let me repeat what I actually said:
The only sensible decision here is to change the Eldar rules to remove their excessive D-weapons and restore D-weapons to their proper place as rare LoW-only titan killers.
Are you watching the wizard of oz? thats the only place your going to see straw men outside of your own posts. But i think your more interested in trying to goad me than actually discuss the topic. For that, feel free to use the PM function.
But I do see you appear to have changed goal posts to use the nonsensicle football expression you see so often here)
The rest of us have been saying for several pages now that D weapons dont belong in normal games of 40k outside of apoc or super heavies and such (which many of us also dont believe belong in normal 40k outside of apoc or at least larger games but thats a different conversation).
Our FIST thought is that they should not be given out like candy as the eldar teaser suggests. We believe it should not be in the eldar codex in the first place.
We assume that GW being their pigheaded selves will not retract them at this time so while that would be the best option, we are resigned to it and are having a HYPOTHETICAL discussion of WHAT IFs.
IF other armies were to get D weapons, which weapons would be the easiest to "convert" with the least disruption to the fluff? That is not to say it would make sense or even not be a change to the fluff. Trust me, those of us who have been around for a while have seen that GW give exactly J and S (i'm sure you can figure out what words those letters represent) about the fluff.
On changes to the fluff, there are degrees of change. Some are large such as the change of ork history and fluff or the eradication of the squats and others are relatively minor such as the dropping of the lovable old ambull (although there may still be some somewhere to be later "found".
A new breakthrough of the cult mechanicus that allows the creation of a new vanquisher shell to be fired that would outdate the older sabot based vanquisher shells would be a minor addition to the fluff. One that would make sense with all the new mechanicus stuff coming out. Larger amounts of it being added to deathstrike shots could also be added in. Changing the source of the MoO "shots" would also be a minor change. Why not for a few more points or even the rerquirement that you also take a MoF (this would make more sense) have the "shots" come from orbit? Those would be relatively minor and unimportant changes compared to giving D shots to las guns and far less game changing.
Again, this is all hypothetical and no one is proposing anything. Just brainstorming ideas of what ifs. No need to get irate or bent out of shape. If someone has a different idea than you, so be it. No need to derail the thread.
I then ask the question, with the assumption that GW is not going to retract the number of D weapons to the eldar, what other things might "even the board" without resorting to just giving out more D weapons or going into the whole codex creep thing? addition of new types of shielding for vehicles that can negate D strength to be "10" instead such as ceremite negates melta? other possible options?
I kind of hate how every thread that Evil Inc posts in inevitably turns into a thread where he is the centre of attention. Sometimes it is ok to let a comment pass you by.
Strength D is a daft thing to add into normal 40k - I didn't mind it when it was mounted on mega-platforms like Stompas and Knights, since it made a certain sense - but giving it to dudes the size of Space Marines is really unpleasant. And arguably ranged is far worse than melee, given how the melee options require actual effort to use (and can be blocked with bubble wraps, etc). Unless Wraithguard cost 100pts each, I can't see how they would possibly be balanced against other units, both in their own book and in general.
Definitely D-emolisher cannons, D-oom Sirens, D-eathwind launchers and D-aggers.
D-aemons and D-readnoughts should probably get it, no matter what weapon they have. Still unsure about Siege D-rills, but Centurions could use the buff.
ImAGeek wrote: I can see the argument for the Deathstrike having it. It only fires once a game, and that's if you get the right roll (I assume that's still the case). I mean it's a warhead almost the size of the vehicle carrying it, strD would make sense there.
It's also not so bad on melee weapons for big scaries like the Knight, because you can mitigate it by avoiding combat where possible.
You obviously haven't played against knights. You can not avoid combat unless they only try to assault units you can avoid with. They tear through units with a Str 9 or 10(can't remember) then get stomp attacks, hammer of wrath, and then their attacks so they can squash another unit of 10 marines next turn. I've seen one take out a squad 30 models in a turn.
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Nvs wrote: Since Eldar set a precedent, it goes without saying that every army will now need some access to it. Perhaps not to the same level that Eldar are rumored to be getting it, but at least one or 2 options.
If not for Eldar I'd say the only place these weapons should be found is on the terrain pieces that could be purched and things like that.
I'm honestly concerned about the books that came out before the Eldar book. It's not like Eldar is the first 8th edition book. Only Chaos and Dark Angels are left, right? So what are the other armies to do now?
Eldar set a precedent? What strength D did they have before the Knights were released? The Knight is not balanced and is available to every imperial army. The rules come with it so you don't need an extra book or anything. You just buy the model and add it to your imperial army. How exactly is that fair? So every imperial army has access and that it.
D was nerfed when they changed it to allow invulnerable saves. i've had a knight tied up for several turns by a single unit of grey knights.
On the knights though, they are available to pretty much any army. I've seen tyranid versions of them ork versions and chaos versions (havnt seen a tau version yet but I'm sure theres one out there. That they are available to any army means that they are already there. I think that there is a difference between adding in something like knights that are available to anyone (although I think they should only be available in larger games) A knight army is a different story as it has huge glaring weaknesses when fielded alone but even then, I would only field in a large game. having a large number of troops that can have them in only a single army, is, I think a bad idea.
Sorry, I shoulda passed by the posts designed to troll and not responded to them. But your right, seems like a lot of threads do have someone trying to instigate an argument from me so that they can be the center of attention. geting along and following the site rules as I do would get them more positive attention. I love the Daemon, Dohnut ect posts. Reminded me of the Xanth books.
What other options can you think of to even the fiel that doesnt involve adding in more D weapons (assuming of course that GW wont retract them from eldar?
docdoom77 wrote: No unit should have Strength D. It's stupid and random and game-breaking. S10, AP1, with Instant Death is more than enough to simulate super-powerful weaponry.
I despise Strength D.
Instant Death does nothing against vehicles/buildings, which is partly the reason why S: D was introduced.
Also, Deathstrike should be S: D. It fires once per game, starting after the first turn, and can't move. If anything deserves D on a ranged attack, it's the Deathstrike.
yeah I've always thought the deathstrike should be strength D. it's a one shot uber missile.
Strength D should be changed to "This attack on the roll of a +4 is now strength 55, instant death, armor bane, flesh bane, remove the enemy model from play, leadership of the hit squad is reduced by d6" Done.
I agree that the Deathstrike should be S: D. Also when fired it should hit every model on the board. This would represent it being detonated in a final desperate suicidal act of mutually assured destruction. Because if the enemy have made it to within visual range of your ICBM then something has gone horribly wrong and you're likely totally screwed. And also because in general launching ICBMs at dudes in small arms fire range is pretty fething slowed.
I think there should be less Strength D, but it seems as if Apocalypse only restrictions are being dismantled left, right and centre.
For Tau the Hammerhead Railgun is a good candidate. Indeed the nerfing of the Broadside Railguns to Strength 8 was due to the need to make the Hammerhead's Railgun stronger than the Broadsides due to the differing aesthetics. Of course, once you were at Strength 10, the only solutions were to either increase the Hammerhead to Strength D or bring the Broadsides down to Strength 8 or 9.
With no Strength D in standard 40k at the time, the result was the bitter, bitter tears of Tau players.
Elsewhere in Tau, I don't think there is a good candidate unless there is the decision to suddenly upgrade the Riptide into a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature or Super-heavy Walker. The Forgeworld units that should have Strength D already do.
Imperium in general, the various orbital bombardments should be D strength, which puts D in a lot of Imperium armies. Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).
I can't really comment too specfically on other codexes.
Edit to add: I recall Astra Militarium Deathstrike Missiles being theoretically available with Vortex warheads according to the Munitions book. So there's a plausible unit upgrade to Strength D.
Jefffar wrote: Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).
Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).
Jefffar wrote: Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).
Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).
Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?
Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?
The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.
Jefffar wrote: Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).
Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).
Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?
Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?
The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.
Funnily enough, none of those units have rules written by FW. The core GW studio wrote the current rules for the Thunderhawk, FW just casts the Resin. Likewise,only one IG Superheavy tank has a D weapon, and that's the Shadowsword, with both the rules and model made by core GW, not FW.
Jefffar wrote: Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).
Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).
Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?
Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?
The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.
Funnily enough, none of those units have rules written by FW. The core GW studio wrote the current rules for the Thunderhawk, FW just casts the Resin. Likewise,only one IG Superheavy tank has a D weapon, and that's the Shadowsword, with both the rules and model made by core GW, not FW.
I'm surprised that there aren't other AM choices from FW with Strength D. In any case, a model currently made by Forgeworld provides Strength D to all Marine chapters.
At any rate, my point still stands, the Imperium already has a number of units with access to Strength D available to all of their armies either in codex (sometimes via Forgeworld) or through fellow Imperium Allies. There's a couple of Imperium items that logically could have Strength D as a part of their baseline or an upgrade, but its not like the Imperium is lacking in opportunity to wield Destroyer level weaponry. .
Jefffar wrote: Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?
Nope. The Thunderhawk rules are in the "main GW" Escalation/Apocalypse books (Escalation was just a copy/paste of Apocalypse for another $50). FW casts and sells the models, but has nothing to do with the rules.
Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?
Nope. The only IG superheavy with a D-weapon is the Shadowsword, which has "main GW" rules in Escalation/Apocalypse and a plastic "main GW" kit. The only thing FW has to do with the Shadowsword is that they produce an aesthetic variant conversion kit.
Jefffar wrote: Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).
Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).
Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?
Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?
The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.
Those MODELS are for escalation games only and cost anywhere from 500 - 700 points. They can't be grouped up into a unit of 5 or 10 in a regular game. I think one of the major concerns that people have is what's to stop someone from filling up a wave serpent - moving real close to the enemy line (or DS) and putting in a lot of S hits to anything that's a threat. Strength D is Death as it can fairly reliably destroy anything if you get ONE or TWO lucky hits. You are giving players the chance to field 15+ units with that ability and that's IF you're not forging the narrative and going unbound
For anyone that feels "it's not that bad", I'd invite you to play against a space marine player who has bolters that shoot S weapons. No, that's not right. Increase the toughness to T6 on the space marine and give it fearless. Now reduce the range on the bolter to 18" and play against that.
Jefffar wrote: Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).
Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).
Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?
Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?
The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.
Funnily enough, none of those units have rules written by FW. The core GW studio wrote the current rules for the Thunderhawk, FW just casts the Resin. Likewise,only one IG Superheavy tank has a D weapon, and that's the Shadowsword, with both the rules and model made by core GW, not FW.
I'm surprised that there aren't other AM choices from FW with Strength D.
Yup, in fact, most of FW's IG superheavy tanks are largely all disappointingly unimpressive, and they don't make anything heavier than the Baneblade chassis tanks, GW took over everything else.
The shadowsword is only available as a lord of war and is a single shot. the knights are a formation (unless you go with the as an army unto themselves) and their d weapon is "only" a close combat weapon. These are far different than being able to pay points for "tom dick and harry" units within a base codex.
I'm still of the mind that adding them to 'normal" units is a bad idea but with the precedent set by GW with the eldar, something needs to be done to "restore balance". We will assume GW is too pigheaded to retract them from eldar so we are just doing a little "what if excersize".
