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 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Vindicare Assassin's turbo-penetrator round should definately be St D.

I think I'd disagree on this. But Fleshbane with Shred, Instant-Death, and to-wound rolls of 6 not allowing any saves of any kind (like StrD) would make sense (at the strongest level). They're strong, but I don't think the Turbo-Penetrator could take out a Stompa.

 Yarium wrote:
Tau
- Hammerhead's Rail-cannon. That's it. Str D is ancient or mystical stuff that's almost beyond technology.

Ancient or mystical stuff like the Basilisk, which is just a WWII-era artillery gun?

Wraithknights do NOT have Strength D. The Strength D on the Bloodthirster is a stupid design, because he cannot even revert pack to his normal attacks and will always strike at I1 while over-killing everything.

Both suggestions make no sense. Tau are already powerful enough without Strength D. Strength D should be reserved for especially powerful and important characters/units or super-heavies.

Also, Strength D is now more popular than before, with Vortex of Doom available to most psykers.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Tau
- Hammerhead's Rail-cannon. That's it. Str D is ancient or mystical stuff that's almost beyond technology.

Ancient or mystical stuff like the Basilisk, which is just a WWII-era artillery gun?

You got me there!

I see a very interesting idea put forward here. The Vanquisher is indeed a candidate to be converted into Strength D. The ammunition type right now is just bs. Given how the damage table on vehicles have been changed, it would take forever for a Vanquisher to bring down a Monolith.

With the vanquisher, it would be tempered by a low BS and the fact that if it missed, nothing happens. It is designed to be the super "hole puncher to blast holes through whatever but when it misses, there is no template. All the template D weapons mean that chances are, that if you miss, your still hitting and killing something. Might even make it worthwhile to take.

Hadnt thought of master of ordinance. I agree, blasts hitting that are designed to kill spaceships would indeed do a number on someone. I'd say up the cost of the guy on the ground and make it so it hits something once in a while. I think its the blast weapon least likely to ever hit anything.

Strength D should be restricted to massive superheavy weapons, and relatively rare even there.

Expanding such weaponry to lesser units devalues the larger units dramatically, makes for "i-win" buttons with cheaper units, and is nothing but power bloat.

Handing out D weapons, pathetically, is still weaker than scatter bikes.

they should be kept to only the specific special heavy equipment. But I have noticed that the eldar players are really keen on saying they shouldnt be handed out like candy and only super heavies should get them...AFTER they got their candy handed to them. Things that make you go "hmmmm...".

Whatever is done with them in regards to armies should be done evenly across the board to keep at least some semblance of power balance. NOT give one single army an abundance of them and then cut them off from all others. if you think you hear players crying about the power of the eldar now, just think how bad it would be if the eldar players got their way and only they ad access to D weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Handing out D weapons, pathetically, is still weaker than scatter bikes.

Mwaha! Strength D scatter bikes Sir!

bibotot wrote:
Wraithknights do NOT have Strength D. The Strength D on the Bloodthirster is a stupid design, because he cannot even revert pack to his normal attacks and will always strike at I1 while over-killing everything.

Actually, Wraithknights will have Str D with the new codex, the picture from the new WD confirming this is all over the internet.

As for the BT rules, I think it was purely intentional and is good game design. You get a combat beast that hits w/Str D but as a balance, he ALWAYS strikes last, even if you give him another weapon to try and circumnavigate the intended balancing rule. Mine managed to kill Shrike and an assault squad in one round, and blew up a predator the next, so he earned his points back and then some (the resulting explosion actually killed the BT sadly, piss poor save rolling on my part)

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Handing out D weapons, pathetically, is still weaker than scatter bikes.

Mwaha! Strength D scatter bikes Sir!

I stand corrected.

NauticalKendall wrote:
Tau should have S CC fists.

That was the best typo you could ever make in that context.

Berzerkers with Str D Khornate Heavychainaxes of Gore, in the shooting phase they can throw the Axes at their targets, the profil is 2D6 Hits with Str D at 16"...

More seriously, a part for Warlord Titan, and equivalant units, no one should have D Str weaponry.

bibotot wrote:
I see a very interesting idea put forward here. The Vanquisher is indeed a candidate to be converted into Strength D. The ammunition type right now is just bs. Given how the damage table on vehicles have been changed, it would take forever for a Vanquisher to bring down a Monolith.

Not really. The vanquisher is just a LRBT with a longer barrel and anti-tank shells, it shouldn't have the same firepower as a Shadowsword (a massive superheavy tank with the main gun of a titan). The real fix the vanquisher needs is to get its old rules back where it had a coax gun option (twin-link the main gun if the coax gun hits) and could still fire the standard LRBT's blast shells. Then it's a LRBT with a bonus (and a price to match), not a cheap single-purpose specialist.


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 EVIL INC wrote:
Hadnt thought of master of ordinance. I agree, blasts hitting that are designed to kill spaceships would indeed do a number on someone. I'd say up the cost of the guy on the ground and make it so it hits something once in a while. I think its the blast weapon least likely to ever hit anything.

Since when is the MoO firing blasts designed to kill spaceships? The MoO is just a guy with a radio and a Basilisk on the other end.

SGTPozy wrote:
Due to the rise of Strength D in normal 40k (Bloodthirster and Wraithknight), which units from your armies do you think should gain it?

For Tau:
Hammerhead's railgun becomes S D and Broadside's heavy rail rifle becomes S 10.

For Tyranids:
Tyrannofexes should gain S D on rupture cannons and S D combat.

For DE:
Void Raven's Void Lances and Void Mines should be Str D.

Well actually I think they should just be AP1, but Str D works.

since it seems to be something supported by people for some reason, I propose a limit: 1 attack/spell/equipement can be s: D per detachement.

if I remember correctly, the blasts are coming from orbit as the ships fire down at locations called in by the MoO.

The vanquisher is more than just a longer barrel with a bigger shell. it is a specific shell designed to punch holes. if it was just a longer barrel with a bigger shell, it would be a blast template weapon. The damage output is the same as a shadowsword just covering a fine point instead of a large blast. The shadowsword is able to fire a larger version of the shell that covers a large area instead of just the small point the vanquisher cannon is capable of.

 EVIL INC wrote:
if I remember correctly, the blasts are coming from orbit as the ships fire down at locations called in by the MoO.

You don't remember correctly. The MoO is just an officer from an IG artillery unit attached to a CCS to act as a spotter and improve the artillery's accuracy.

The vanquisher is more than just a longer barrel with a bigger shell. it is a specific shell designed to punch holes. if it was just a longer barrel with a bigger shell, it would be a blast template weapon. The damage output is the same as a shadowsword and all, just condensed to a fine point as the chassis of the tank carrying the weapon and the barrel size is not large enough to do it on the same scale as the shadowsword. This is why its weaker in that instead of a large blast, it can only do that damage on a small point thus the non-blast hit or miss.

1) You're ignoring the fluff of the LR vanquisher. Since it was first invented it has been a LRBT with a longer barrel and sabot rounds. It's more effective at killing vehicles than a normal LRBT, but not by a huge margin. In the original rules it had 2D6 added together armor penetration vs. 2D6 pick the highest for a standard LRBT firing (non-blast) anti-tank shells vs. 2D6 pick the lowest for a LRBT firing (5" blast) explosive shells. That's clearly better firepower against vehicles, but it was never supposed to be some kind of magic armor-ignoring gun that nothing can stop.

2) You're ignoring the fact that we have an example of a non-blast D-weapon already: the heavy railguns on the Tigershark and Manta. These are massive titan-scale weapons that are almost as big as an entire LRBT. The vanquisher clearly doesn't have that kind of weapon, so STR D is not appropriate.

Can you cite page numbers and books to enlighten us?
Nm, I see, I misread the MoO It has been a while since I dug out the older guard codex. i had "mentally merged" the mention of lance batteries on ships with the master of fleet with the MoO.
However, with the inconsistance of the fluff GW has maintained (or not lol), the source of those shots could easily be swapped to be from the support ships and still make sense adding a D weapon to the arsenal of the guard witch could help them out. Of course, with it's inaccuracy, I wouldnt bet on them being used a lot as it would be paying for a D shot that MIGHT hit something and be sourced in a paper squad and easily be removed.

"The Master of Ordinance, for example, utilises complex equipment to coordinate devastating long range artillery strikes from support weapons for beyond the front line;", (Codex: Astra Militarum, pg. 31)

Sorry custom, I ninjad you as I went and dug out my older codex where they were introduced as units to be used.
Were you able to find the source that says that the vanquisher cannon just fires a mere battle cannon round from a longer barrel? Not that I'm saying the vanquisher should have a D strength of course. it seems some are intentionally misreading my post as though i am in order to have an excuse to instigate an argument. I put the vanquisher out (and someone else put out the Moo but I supported) as being the units that would be the easiest to give a D strength to if they were going to be added in order to maintain a balance between codices.
As I said, they shouldnt be handed out like candy and I would support them being apoc only or superheavyes and super heavy walkers (someone earlier suggested normal walkers along with super heavies) only. If they are going to include them in "normal" units as it appears so far they are doing with eldar and if they are going to do the same with other new codices as they come out, I feel it would be best to put them on units that either make sense as is or to units that can easily be "tweaked" without a large fluff change to "justify" it.
So, Peregrine, if the guard were to "have" to have a few D strength weapons put into the codex in this way, what weapons would YOU choose to have it put on? I chose the deathstrike and vanquisher and supported a nomination for MoO. What would be YOUR top 3 if you had to choose without having the option to not choose any?

Doomsday cannon for sure. Bigger than a Pulsar, and of comparable tech level.

 EVIL INC wrote:
So, Peregrine, if the guard were to "have" to have a few D strength weapons put into the codex in this way, what weapons would YOU choose to have it put on?

Lasgun (both melee and shooting profiles), mortar, and flamer. If we're at the point of putting multiple D-weapons on "normal" units just to satisfy some bizarre obsession with having lots of D-weapons then the game is utterly broken and I might as well break it so thoroughly that nobody can pretend things are ok.


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 EVIL INC wrote:
Were you able to find the source that says that the vanquisher cannon just fires a mere battle cannon round from a longer barrel?

No, because I never said that. The vanquisher has a long-barreled battlecannon with sabot rounds. It's more effective than (hard-tipped explosive) anti-tank rounds from a conventional battlecannon, but it's not in a completely separate class of weapon.

So you actually think that if we were forced to accept them that those weapons would be the most likely candidates. Ok, if you feel that those weapons are the most likely, your stance on that has been noted. I respectfully disagree.

The *only* Codex unit that I can possibly think of, at all, that should have Strength D, is the Deathstrike, and that really should come at an appreciable points hike.

For a one-shot ICBM that somehow has been hamfisted onto a front line battle, sure, that'd at least make sense, even if it's still piss poor game design.

Personally, I think Deathstrikes should be S: D apocalyptic blast with unlimited range but restricted to apoc only. It has no business being in your typival game of 40k.

I agree on the deathstrike. To me it seems to be something I would shoot as the rest of my army advanced in order to soften up the enemy for the rest of my army to mop up when they got there.
Ijust put it forth as one of the few options that could be tweaked to have a D strength with the least impact on the fluff IF we had to accept a D strength weapon in order to maintain some semblance of balance.
There honestly arent a lot of options within the currently available units in the codex that would justify it or be tweaked fluffwise to justify it. Unless your think as some do that the lasguns are really that powerfull. I have not had that much luck killing tanks with them and it would be a HUGE change in the fluff to suddenly change them to be that powerfull not to mention that IMHO, there are weapons such as the deathstrike that would be far better candidates.
Of course, knowing GW, they will likely introduce an all new weapon/vehicle which will have it that we wont currently have in order to force us to buy it to have somewhat of a chance at winning a game or two.

Philosophically, I think every faction needs a unit or a battle brother like Imperial Knight / Bloodthirster / Wraithknight -- a mini titan with strength D.

It's just unfair for one side to have this in their tools, and not another side, without some stupid fluff-destroying ally (like Tyranids or Necron with Imperial Knights... yeah, right).

By all means, let Eldar have sole Codex access to StrD. Then perhaps my fellow Tau players won't get grief over our armies. Especially if the rules for StrD gets removed from the 8th Edition Rulebook.