he achieved more then Horus and any other Primarch

in the words of Abaddon, a student of Horus that admired him so much

"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away." - Abaddon


and its funny..that Abaddon not only has a greater legacy then Horus or any of the other primarchs, but he could 1 v1 beat the crap of any of them in a fight (that's current abaddon vs. pre-heresy primarchs)

Uh, no. Abaddon is not on the level of most of the Primarchs, and at best could possibly have taken the actual Horus pre-Chaos boon and Lorgar pre-Chaos boon, as they were both pretty pathetic in terms of combat capability.

But the Lion, Curze, Magnus, Sanguinius, Leman Russ, Angron, etc would wipe Abaddon off the map, even with Chaos empowerment. He isn't even close to their level.

Besides, Horus was never martially impressive, and Horus was never supposed to win either. He was destined to fail by Chaos itself.

How about that Crythe Cluster debacle, hmm?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Uh, no. Abaddon is not on the level of most of the Primarchs, and at best could possibly have taken the actual Horus pre-Chaos boon and Lorgar pre-Chaos boon, as they were both pretty pathetic in terms of combat capability.

But the Lion, Curze, Magnus, Sanguinius, Leman Russ, Angron, etc would wipe Abaddon off the map, even with Chaos empowerment. He isn't even close to their level.

Besides, Horus was never martially impressive, and Horus was never supposed to win either. He was destined to fail by Chaos itself.

could he at least be competitive with them in a fight...

so your saying essentially pre-heresy primarch>>>chaos empowered abaddon

LightKing wrote:
he achieved more then Horus and any other Primarch

in the words of Abaddon, a student of Horus that admired him so much

"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away." - Abaddon


and its funny..that Abaddon not only has a greater legacy then Horus or any of the other primarchs, but he could 1 v1 beat the crap of any of them in a fight (that's current abaddon vs. pre-heresy primarchs)

Chaos fueled Abbadon could beat non Chaos fueled pre heresy Primarchs? Naw probably not.

Also his Legacy sucks. Without Horus there is no Abbadon. That's like saying Hercules had more of a legacy than Zeus. Abbadon has achieved absolutely nothing. Lorgar tore a unified Imperium apart, and yes I consider it him, because it was him and his legion who started the heresy without question. Horus killed Sanguinius and confined big E to the Golden Throne. While Abbadon has done nothing but kill a handful of Cadians and few random Space Marine heroes invented solely for the purpose of giving Abbadon a hero to kill

Well to be fair Zeus' legacy was mostly with the hundreds of woman he slept with/ creating terrible monsters for the world to deal with While Hercules was more about rescuing damsels in distress and other innocents from said monsters.

LightKing wrote:


"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away." - Abaddon

So Abaddon says something and that means it MUST be true? I think someone might just be a tad bit too mesmerized by his top-knot...

I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

Your imagination is a little too dark for my tastes sir. ( scoots back nervously)

I'm sorry, anyone with a name like Failbbadon the Armless isn't as good as a primarch.

You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

Abaddon isn't dead yet so one can't sucessfully judge his legacy. right now? he has acheived less then Horus. but assuming you follow all the prophecy stuff as truth, Abaddon may succeed where Horus Failed

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

But he did win over the Imperium, of a sort. He successfully altered it to a state of bitter in-fueding and stagnation that's lasted 10,000 years. I'd call that some measure of success.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

But he did win over the Imperium, of a sort. He successfully altered it to a state of bitter in-fueding and stagnation that's lasted 10,000 years. I'd call that some measure of success.

Indeed, it's a HUGE legacy, even if not the one he nesscarily wanted

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

But he did win over the Imperium, of a sort. He successfully altered it to a state of bitter in-fueding and stagnation that's lasted 10,000 years. I'd call that some measure of success.

True, but in the grand scheme Horus was just a pawn. IMO Abaddon's better than Horus in that Abaddon understands and comprehends Chaos better than his father. He's physically inferior, but seems to be more cunning when it comes to Chaos politicking.

Doesn't he have 12 failed tries under his belt and working on his 13th? Gotta give him points for tenacity, he'd make a great Warboss.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Doesn't he have 12 failed tries under his belt and working on his 13th? Gotta give him points for tenacity, he'd make a great Warboss.

no, you gotta take into account that the idea that each Black crusade was a single differnt attempt to conquer the IoM is... untrue. rather then where wars fought for specific objectives. objectives Abbaddon met.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

But he did win over the Imperium, of a sort. He successfully altered it to a state of bitter in-fueding and stagnation that's lasted 10,000 years. I'd call that some measure of success.

True, but in the grand scheme Horus was just a pawn. IMO Abaddon's better than Horus in that Abaddon understands and comprehends Chaos better than his father. He's physically inferior, but seems to be more cunning when it comes to Chaos politicking.

Abaddon is no less a pawn than Horus. That line about Horus being a fool illustrates just how much Chaos has twisted Abaddon against himself IMO. Abaddon was closer to Horus than any of the Luna Wolves, he openly wept when Horus was injured on Davin and there was no hesitation do whatever it took, Imperial law be damned, to save Horus. Now, as a servant of Chaos he has nothing but contempt for Horus. Abaddon lost himself a very long time ago, and any ambitions he might believe to be his own are just delusions the Chaos Gods allow him to keep IMO.

At the moment dealing with any "certanties" when it comes to Abbadon would be a mistake, as his trilogy of books has not been finished, there will be a lot of retcons coming, the biggest of which is abbadon is actually not a bad guy, yes he may be corrupted by chaos somewhere along the line but in talon of horus it makes it pretty clear he isnt even slightly interested in chaos winning, just tearing the imperium down.

chaos is just the tool, and the fact he turned down deamondom shows that chaos doesnt quite have the influence it thinks it has over him.

Also failbaddon is a naff meme that needs to die, the only people who state it are the people who dont know or understand the fluff, he never failed in his black crusades, he got what he wanted and dropped the chaff as he left, he is a big picture bad guy, not a win every battle bad guy.

 Formosa wrote:
At the moment dealing with any "certanties" when it comes to Abbadon would be a mistake, as his trilogy of books has not been finished, there will be a lot of retcons coming, the biggest of which is abbadon is actually not a bad guy, yes he may be corrupted by chaos somewhere along the line but in talon of horus it makes it pretty clear he isnt even slightly interested in chaos winning, just tearing the imperium down.

chaos is just the tool, and the fact he turned down deamondom shows that chaos doesnt quite have the influence it thinks it has over him.

Also failbaddon is a naff meme that needs to die, the only people who state it are the people who dont know or understand the fluff, he never failed in his black crusades, he got what he wanted and dropped the chaff as he left, he is a big picture bad guy, not a win every battle bad guy.

Horus didn't care about Chaos winning either. He went against the plans of the Chaos Gods on several occasions to pursue his own plans. He also did not ascend to daemonhood either. In the end it didn't matter, he ended up achieving the goals of the Chaos Gods but not his own. Ultimately, Abaddon will be no different.

Any of the Primarchs that ascended to Deamonhood probably really don't give a rats ass right now about anyone's legacy TBF.

"What's that Abby? Sorry I can't hear you, too much Deamonette tit in my mouth!"

On a serious note, Horus was set up to fail so that Abby could have a swipe at the greater goal; which is a long term plan he has been slowly achieving through the other black crusades. I'd also aruge that Guilliman has the largest legacy, given the amount of space marine chapters are floating around up there!

Doesn't really matter if failing 12 times resulted in an undesirable meme. I'd call it well earned. His victories at best might have been beating the other chaos chapters into submission and joining him on his crusades but even that might still be credited to the chaos powers, Tzeentch most likely. Everyone always remembers you based on your last fight, Maybe this 13th crusade will set things straight and Abaddon wins. But that end game is as likely to pass as Nids eating the whole galaxy, Orks conquering the galaxy, or the Emporer snapping back to life and with a wave of his hand all of humanity is saved etc... Essentially, the day Abaddon stops being Failbaddon is the day GW has decided to bench 40k universe.

Doesn't all of GW fluff result in undesirable MEMEs?

abbadon has had 12 crusades and hasn't even touched the emporer, horus almost killed him and a primarch 1st try

 Formosa wrote:
Also failbaddon is a naff meme that needs to die, the only people who state it are the people who dont know or understand the fluff, he never failed in his black crusades, he got what he wanted and dropped the chaff as he left, he is a big picture bad guy, not a win every battle bad guy.

Hear, hear!

12 successful Black Crusades and he's now working on his ultimate one, the one those other 12 have been preparing for, the one where he actually tries to reach Terra.

People who keep saying he's failed 12 times are either are players who haven't actually read the background and just pick it up from terrible 40K memes/1d4chan or players who have read it and willfully ignorant because reasons.

We''ll stop insulting Failbaddon as soon as you stop calling us ultrasmurfs, and acknowledge our superiority as Space Marines!
But seriously your right, and technically he "won" the 13th but it was retconned and now we are perpetually stuck.

Well, Chaos won on the ground, but the Imperium won in space.

So he wasn't ever going to get to Terra, but he was going to be able to get out of the Eye of Terror...

The imperium was going to "win" the 13th crusade for obvious reasons

As it is his 12 crusades are all set up as different objectives to prepare one, grand crusade (the 13th) but it is VERY important to remember that is not how it always was
Originally, he simply had done the whole crusade against the IoM on cadia 13 times, with it being the same old song and dance.
We did not have much information on the original twelve because it was assumed they were just the same as the 13th, but obliviously didn't succeed since he had to keep retrying
He gained the nickname and horrible reputation for a good reason, and that simply being that he had poor, and one dimensional fluff
GW later retconed his past and changed the crusades up to make them have a greater purpose for being spread out, and that was all just an attempt to make him see more menacing then the Saturday morning villain he originally was
Personally, I would love to see him rise high due to having a large number of allies gathered and then stabbed in the back by someone like Huron, Erebus, or maybe even Fabius Bile

So people have reason to mock him, and changing some words in a book isn't often enough to change someones mind very quickly (and the ever slowing change of pace in the timeline isn't going to help that anytime soon)

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

Horus fought his way to terra, brought death and doom to anyone who stood in his way turned half his brothers to Chaos killed the Primarch of the blood angels and then proceeded to cripple a god like super psyker, turning the emperor into a tomato.
Abaddon tried the same thing and got whipped by Cadians.
Even if it was the will of the chaos gods that is still damn impressive

In 200 years, Horus conquered the known galaxy. In 10,000 years, Abaddon hasn't even managed to fully open the door of his prison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all.

Horus definitely was close to conquering the Imperium. The only part he didn't conquer was the part before the Emperor found him. Then Horus conquered the rest.

After that, he went traitor and didn't do as much conquering.

Of course, during the Great Crusade Horus never did get into a single conflict where his forces weren't at a substantial material, technological, and manpower advantage. After he lost that advantage, he did certainly seem much less effective.

GW needs to man up and accept the Eye of Terror campaign as canon. Abaddon's 13th crusade took Cadia. Then they need to have another big event where Terra is besieged, like it hints will happen in the latest CSM codex. Of course, this time GW can't let it be player decided and will have to have the Imperium pull a victory out of their behinds through some Primarch's return, the Emperor ascending to full godhood, or something, so they don't lose their biggest faction. And then we'd get a restructuring of the status quo, with all the factions still preserved but a few big changes to the special characters and setting.

Not perfect, but at least the story would DO SOMETHING. And Abaddon would be less easy to make fun of.

I'm pretty happy with the idea of moving the time line up a bit, let Abby do some damage. It'd be interesting if a primarch could come back, if it is written well. Most primarchs that left are supposedly coming back only in the end times, and I hope 40k hasn't reached that yet (though it kinda is end times in itself right now). Maybe a bunch of orks swarm the gate, making it an orky fortress on Cadia, and stopping major chaos reinforcements from helping Abby out at Terra. (Really unlikely GW would make Cadia orky though)

Goge Vandire legacy was bigger.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well to be fair Zeus' legacy was mostly with the hundreds of woman he slept with/ creating terrible monsters for the world to deal with While Hercules was more about rescuing damsels in distress and other innocents from said monsters.

You mean his legacy was more being the ruler of the Gods


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

Nope just mortally wounded the emperor and killed almost every loyal primarch while leaving the traitor ones living. Not close at all just basically right on the very edge.

Also Wyz the chaos wanting him to lose thing. Is that canon or theory? It used to just be theory not even hinted at in the literature did something change? The Kabal(one of them) are the only ones who said if Horus wins chaos loses, but I don't remember that being verified at any point.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm pretty happy with the idea of moving the time line up a bit, let Abby do some damage. It'd be interesting if a primarch could come back, if it is written well. Most primarchs that left are supposedly coming back only in the end times, and I hope 40k hasn't reached that yet (though it kinda is end times in itself right now). Maybe a bunch of orks swarm the gate, making it an orky fortress on Cadia, and stopping major chaos reinforcements from helping Abby out at Terra. (Really unlikely GW would make Cadia orky though)

Ghazghkull is currently looking for another scrap to get the orks involved in and there is no scrap going on like the black crusades. Ghazzy vs. Abaddon vs. Creed. Done well, this could advance the story and finally give Abaddon a legacy he can be proud of.

Doesnt cadia have some necron pylon tech that keeps the Eye from expanding? If abbadon wins cadia on the ground and trashes these things the eye would expand to consume much more of the galaxy, giving Abbadon and his allies that much more leverage against the IoM. If GW did decide to take the results of the EoT campaign as cannon wouldn't that effectively cave in the imperium? Having a gaping, un-conquerable hole in the middle of your empire where enemy forces are constantly assaulting from does tend to put a damper on things.

jakejackjake wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well to be fair Zeus' legacy was mostly with the hundreds of woman he slept with/ creating terrible monsters for the world to deal with While Hercules was more about rescuing damsels in distress and other innocents from said monsters.

You mean his legacy was more being the ruler of the Gods


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

Nope just mortally wounded the emperor and killed almost every loyal primarch while leaving the traitor ones living. Not close at all just basically right on the very edge.

Also Wyz the chaos wanting him to lose thing. Is that canon or theory? It used to just be theory not even hinted at in the literature did something change? The Kabal(one of them) are the only ones who said if Horus wins chaos loses, but I don't remember that being verified at any point.

Pandorax. The Cabal has and always will be full of gak, which isn't surprising considering their contents. The Horus Heresy was rigged from the start, and Horus was just supposed to wound the Emperor enough to put him on the throne. He never was going to kill him, Chaos saw to that.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
We''ll stop insulting Failbaddon as soon as you stop calling us ultrasmurfs, and acknowledge our superiority as Space Marines!

Yeah, you Ultrasmurfs deserve your mockery. Stuck up little . Other Chapters do exist you know.

Abaddon will always be Failbaddon!!!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Goge Vandire legacy was bigger.

What legacy is that? He inspired the creation of a faction nobody plays or cares about except a rabid few who pollute every unrelated thread with some whinge about aforementioned uncared about and unplayed faction?

Nice legacy.

On topic: Abaddon commands more now than Horus did 10k years ago. He's still alive, isn't crying alone on some daemon world, and represents the greatest threat to the Imperium.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Well, Chaos won on the ground, but the Imperium won in space.

So he wasn't ever going to get to Terra, but he was going to be able to get out of the Eye of Terror...

The funny thing is by current fluff chaos winning the ground war is actually a loss for Abaddon; he wants to throw the path from The Eye to Terra into a state of constant, terrible war in order to ensure his daemonic allies are able to manifest at will without the need for ritual or sorcery.

A win for Abaddon by current fluff would actually be a stalemate in the ground war, but being able to spread the ground war to other systems.

PS On the other hand, having read the second page, perhaps winning the ground war is good as it will give him a chance to destroy the pylons holding the eye at bay? Didn't he want to use his blackstone fortresses to do this though? Which I guess will be difficult if he lost the space war for the system.

PPS someone else mentioned the details for the first 12 crusades were thin which made it appear that Abaddon was always failing; I'm sure there has actually been details for some of the crusades for a long time; the destruction of that guy and his fortress. Finding the sword and so on were always a part of Abaddon's fluff, right?

And didn't the 2nd ed codex only go up to 11? 12 was added with Battlefleet Gothic, which was a space crusade aimed at capturing the 6 Blackstone Fortresses (he captured three but lost one on his way back to the eye I believe).

MarsNZ wrote:
What legacy is that?

Huge changes to how the Administratum, Ministorum, Assassinorum, Inquisition, and High Lords work.

On topic: Abaddon commands more now than Horus did 10k years ago. He's still alive, isn't crying alone on some daemon world, and represents the greatest threat to the Imperium.

Your absolutely right. He DOES command more than Horus did, and he still hasn't made a reasonable dent in the Imperium.

If Horus was around right now instead of Failbaddon then the Imperium would be on its knees and chaos would be everywhere. The only thing that stopped Horus was the Emperor himself ( which of course he also managed to kill his greatest god-warrior son, and mortally wound the Emperor so by your logic Horus actually had a huge victory.)

What legacy is that? He inspired the creation of a faction nobody plays or cares about except a rabid few who pollute every unrelated thread with some whinge about aforementioned uncared about and unplayed faction?

Abbadon has had access to superweapons, a larger army, more understanding/ time spent with chaos and he STILL hasn't come close to the impact Horus has had, and he never will the way GW is going.

Talk about rabid fans defending their faction.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
What legacy is that?

Huge changes to how the Administratum, Ministorum, Assassinorum, Inquisition, and High Lords work.

The Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition was created after his reign to monitor the Ecclesiarchy and search for any future heretics.

Abaddon is ultimately a silly git with a topknot and some tryhard Lore made by a company desperately trying to get them to take a Villain who cannot succeed anymore than any comic book villain can seriously when ultimately; he's still a silly git with a stupid hair and daddy issues and a god awful model.

He can have all the tryhard lore to pump up his reputation that he wants, but he'll never be as cool looking as Archaon and because of the way the setting is set up, he'll never be half the man Horus or Archaon ever were.



This is a badass Chaos Lord.



This is a Dork.

 the Signless wrote:
The Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition was created after his reign to monitor the Ecclesiarchy and search for any future heretics.

Yeah. It was created because of him. Is that not the meaning of legacy? (Genuine question, not a native speaker here)

In a way, a legacy is what they left behind, so his legacy could be the Ecclesiarchy.

No, the Ecclesiarchy was present before him.

Lol so some Black Crusades add up to more than the Great Crusade which reunited most of lost humanity?

That might just be sementic, but Abbadon cannot have a legacy yet for he his not dead or even about to be. A legacy is by definition what you leave behind you when you pass away (or at least leave from a particular lifestyle or work). Horus has a legacy and ironnicaly Abbadon is part of it, just like Horus himself his part of the legacy of the Emperor.

by the very nature of being a traitor, outlaw, and chaos warlord, that fact that he is still around to do allo f those thing after 10000 years is a legacy unto itself. Him, Ahriman, Typhus, and to a lesser extent Lucious and kharn are on equal footing with him and this point, despite that abaddon has a larger following than the others. I think by Legacy you mean Impact on the galaxy. from a certain point yes, because he has done more than horus or any other primarchs by simple factors of time, but I would say from another point of view no because the magnitude of the events of the heresy and acts of the primarchs over shadow all the events of the subsequent 10000 years.

but the question is kind of moot. as Abbadon wouldn't be able to do what he is doing without horus or the other primarchs,

Tbh the first time I was reading about warhammer fluff and was getting addicted to chaos and learning everything about them, I thought that the first 12 crusades were actually designed by abbadon to succeed and lead up to his 13th one instead of him failing 12 timesXD. Just made a lot more sense when I first read of the crusades until I saw that everyone said he just ended up falling flat on his face everytime. Still though abaddon is more of the tough BA leader that horus was with manipulating and manoeuvring the largest remaining groups of chaos space marines. Anyone who gets in his way he bullies or 'persuades' into joining him and is elusive enough to get the chaos gods to tag along too. He's not a primarch so he obviously won't be able to match them. But he's the only thing that holds all that remains of chaos's heavy hitter and without him they'd probably not be much of a problem for the IOM.

 GKTiberius wrote:
by the very nature of being a traitor, outlaw, and chaos warlord, that fact that he is still around to do allo f those thing after 10000 years is a legacy unto itself. Him, Ahriman, Typhus, and to a lesser extent Lucious and kharn are on equal footing with him and this point, despite that abaddon has a larger following than the others. I think by Legacy you mean Impact on the galaxy. from a certain point yes, because he has done more than horus or any other primarchs by simple factors of time, but I would say from another point of view no because the magnitude of the events of the heresy and acts of the primarchs over shadow all the events of the subsequent 10000 years.

but the question is kind of moot. as Abbadon wouldn't be able to do what he is doing without horus or the other primarchs,

I actually think Typhus and Kharn have a greater legacy than Abaddon. Yes, they retconned Abaddon's 12 failed Crusades, but that still doesn't make him seem like the biggest threat to the IoM.

Abbaddon is a fantastic fighter and bully, but other than that he falls fairly short. He is not a great general. Even at the TT he is a monster-fighter, but poffers no additional aid to his army. Right now he seems to be a guy walking around collecting amazing trophies but never doing much like a level 30+ char in Fallout 2 due to the recent change in fluff. Of course I'm aware of that the IOM throws anything they have at him, and the Warp makes simple logistics for him impossible, but still he seems to be amazing as a failure as general, but then again GW never seem to want to paint him as a very competent general even during the HH-novels.

 jreilly89 wrote:
they retconned Abaddon's 12 failed Crusades

"Abaddon has led twelve Black Crusades against the Imperium. Some have been great invasions of whole Legions of the lost and the damned, others have been vicious raids with only a few companies of the most deadly Chaos Space Marines at his command. Each attack has sent the Imperium reeling and ravaged worlds close to the Eye of Terror. The High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago."

"Abaddon dreams of forging a diabolic empire of his own from the blazing ruins of the shattered Imperium. Each world, each city destroyed, is a step closer to wiping the canvas clean so he can make his mark upon the galaxy."

"Abaddon the Despoiler, most feared adversary of the Imperium, has slowly but surely marshalled the forces of countless Traitor Legions to the point where he stands on the brink of challenging the Emperor himself as Warmaster Horus did before him."

To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I feel like GW's trying way too hard to make Abaddon respectable when I will never respect him until he shaves his stupid top knot and puts on a big horned helmet and a human skin cape like a proper chaos lord. :V

 Kain wrote:
I feel like GW's trying way too hard to make Abaddon respectable when I will never respect him until he shaves his stupid top knot and puts on a big horned helmet and a human skin cape like a proper chaos lord. :V

If I ever break down and by that damned model I will be converting and adding a helmet. I Don't wanna see the face of any of my soldiers. Also, the top knot is stupid.

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.

Exactly. Abaddon's mode of operation seems to be have a smoke screen of fake objectives, allowing him to accomplish his own secret objective (acquiring his daemonsword, finding the psyker on Pandorax, etc).

nareik wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.

Exactly. Abaddon's mode of operation seems to be have a smoke screen of fake objectives, allowing him to accomplish his own secret objective (acquiring his daemonsword, finding the psyker on Pandorax, etc).

Honestly I preferred Abbaddon as a failure as a general. I mean now he move around looking for trinkets like a bored player character in a video-game instead of even trying to defeat his enemies. Finding daemon-swords, Blackstone-fortresses and other stuff. I know its supposed to be awesome, but he comes across to me as even more incompetent than before due to that.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

nareik wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.

Exactly. Abaddon's mode of operation seems to be have a smoke screen of fake objectives, allowing him to accomplish his own secret objective (acquiring his daemonsword, finding the psyker on Pandorax, etc).

Honestly I preferred Abbaddon as a failure as a general. I mean now he move around looking for trinkets like a bored player character in a video-game instead of even trying to defeat his enemies. Finding daemon-swords, Blackstone-fortresses and other stuff. I know its supposed to be awesome, but he comes across to me as even more incompetent than before due to that.

It could also be that he knows that unless he can unify all of chaos forces in the EOT that he cannot win, there fore these "trinkets" (including blackstone fortresses, some of the most powerful objects in the galaxy) are stepping stones to achieving that goal. As a warlord, he must prove his power to those he leads, unlike order who must follow the chain of command.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

nareik wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.

Exactly. Abaddon's mode of operation seems to be have a smoke screen of fake objectives, allowing him to accomplish his own secret objective (acquiring his daemonsword, finding the psyker on Pandorax, etc).

Honestly I preferred Abbaddon as a failure as a general. I mean now he move around looking for trinkets like a bored player character in a video-game instead of even trying to defeat his enemies. Finding daemon-swords, Blackstone-fortresses and other stuff. I know its supposed to be awesome, but he comes across to me as even more incompetent than before due to that.

It could also be that he knows that unless he can unify all of chaos forces in the EOT that he cannot win, there fore these "trinkets" (including blackstone fortresses, some of the most powerful objects in the galaxy) are stepping stones to achieving that goal. As a warlord, he must prove his power to those he leads, unlike order who must follow the chain of command.

Yeah thats supposed to be the story, yet it take him endlessly long to achieve it. The writers basically wrote themselves into a corner which seems bad no matter what they select. The best explanation is that time flows differently in the warp for the length of time, but even that seems cheap as far as explanations goes. Also he is a blood-tempered maniac even in their fluff, so I guess they weren't looking for the best general available as proven by his TT-rules.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Honestly I preferred Abbaddon as a failure as a general. I mean now he move around looking for trinkets like a bored player character in a video-game instead of even trying to defeat his enemies. Finding daemon-swords, Blackstone-fortresses and other stuff. I know its supposed to be awesome, but he comes across to me as even more incompetent than before due to that.

Abaddon's fluff always was he was collecting 'trinkets'. Getting the daemon sword in 1 to later be able to use it to permanently raze a strongpoint in the imperium's defences (the citadel of the Kromarch) in a later crusade (can't remember the number... looked it up, its 4) has always been part of the fluff. The only change is all of the crusades have now been detailed.

nareik wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Honestly I preferred Abbaddon as a failure as a general. I mean now he move around looking for trinkets like a bored player character in a video-game instead of even trying to defeat his enemies. Finding daemon-swords, Blackstone-fortresses and other stuff. I know its supposed to be awesome, but he comes across to me as even more incompetent than before due to that.

Abaddon's fluff always was he was collecting 'trinkets'. Getting the daemon sword in 1 to later be able to use it to permanently raze a strongpoint in the imperium's defences (the citadel of the Kromarch) in a later crusade (can't remember the number... looked it up, its 4) has always been part of the fluff. The only change is all of the crusades have now been detailed.

I covered that with my argument above.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

nareik wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.

Exactly. Abaddon's mode of operation seems to be have a smoke screen of fake objectives, allowing him to accomplish his own secret objective (acquiring his daemonsword, finding the psyker on Pandorax, etc).

Honestly I preferred Abbaddon as a failure as a general. I mean now he move around looking for trinkets like a bored player character in a video-game instead of even trying to defeat his enemies. Finding daemon-swords, Blackstone-fortresses and other stuff. I know its supposed to be awesome, but he comes across to me as even more incompetent than before due to that.

It could also be that he knows that unless he can unify all of chaos forces in the EOT that he cannot win, there fore these "trinkets" (including blackstone fortresses, some of the most powerful objects in the galaxy) are stepping stones to achieving that goal. As a warlord, he must prove his power to those he leads, unlike order who must follow the chain of command.

Yeah thats supposed to be the story, yet it take him endlessly long to achieve it. The writers basically wrote themselves into a corner which seems bad no matter what they select. The best explanation is that time flows differently in the warp for the length of time, but even that seems cheap as far as explanations goes. Also he is a blood-tempered maniac even in their fluff, so I guess they weren't looking for the best general available as proven by his TT-rules.

But he inst a general, he is a Warlord. there is a difference. He ins't supposed ot be the most tactical or strategic mind on the EOT, he is supposed to be the strongest and carry the favor of the gods. that favor is demonstrated by his powers and possessions. Imagine how difficult it would be for Marneus Calgar if he had to prove to each UM successor chapter that he was worthy of leadership, or if Lord commander Macharius had to personally recruit every regiment of guard in his crusade by beating the feth out of each other regiment commander. Under those circumstances, any united effort by chaos at his direction is a testament to his strength as a warlord, the fact that he could broker alliances and lead a sizable force twelve previous times is a pretty good track record. It is what sets him apart from typhus or Ahriman, or eve Huron. Sure they can lead their own factional forces, but abbadon is the only one who has come close to uniting any of the multitude of factions, let alone all of them. to say because he hasn't actively won against a larger, more organized, better equipped force he is a failure is to vastly undercut his ability and gravitas.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

nareik wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.

Exactly. Abaddon's mode of operation seems to be have a smoke screen of fake objectives, allowing him to accomplish his own secret objective (acquiring his daemonsword, finding the psyker on Pandorax, etc).

Honestly I preferred Abbaddon as a failure as a general. I mean now he move around looking for trinkets like a bored player character in a video-game instead of even trying to defeat his enemies. Finding daemon-swords, Blackstone-fortresses and other stuff. I know its supposed to be awesome, but he comes across to me as even more incompetent than before due to that.

It could also be that he knows that unless he can unify all of chaos forces in the EOT that he cannot win, there fore these "trinkets" (including blackstone fortresses, some of the most powerful objects in the galaxy) are stepping stones to achieving that goal. As a warlord, he must prove his power to those he leads, unlike order who must follow the chain of command.

Yeah thats supposed to be the story, yet it take him endlessly long to achieve it. The writers basically wrote themselves into a corner which seems bad no matter what they select. The best explanation is that time flows differently in the warp for the length of time, but even that seems cheap as far as explanations goes. Also he is a blood-tempered maniac even in their fluff, so I guess they weren't looking for the best general available as proven by his TT-rules.

But he inst a general, he is a Warlord. there is a difference. He ins't supposed ot be the most tactical or strategic mind on the EOT, he is supposed to be the strongest and carry the favor of the gods. that favor is demonstrated by his powers and possessions. Imagine how difficult it would be for Marneus Calgar if he had to prove to each UM successor chapter that he was worthy of leadership, or if Lord commander Macharius had to personally recruit every regiment of guard in his crusade by beating the feth out of each other regiment commander. Under those circumstances, any united effort by chaos at his direction is a testament to his strength as a warlord, the fact that he could broker alliances and lead a sizable force twelve previous times is a pretty good track record. It is what sets him apart from typhus or Ahriman, or eve Huron. Sure they can lead their own factional forces, but abbadon is the only one who has come close to uniting any of the multitude of factions, let alone all of them. to say because he hasn't actively won against a larger, more organized, better equipped force he is a failure is to vastly undercut his ability and gravitas.

He is betrayed by simple logistics and that his force is in nature chaotic, what is your argument BTW?

my argument is that to assess his lack of overall victory as his personal failure as many people have done is not only wrong it isn't fair to the character. It would be more accurate to say he hasn't achieved his goal yet, but he isn't a failure as a warlord. if he was that he would have been killed and replaced by now. plain and simple.

That aside, his legacy or impact on the galactic narrative is more substantial than any other non primarch, (ab)human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as an aside, i like the text pyramid thing.

 GKTiberius wrote:
my argument is that to assess his lack of overall victory as his personal failure as many people have done is not only wrong it isn't fair to the character. It would be more accurate to say he hasn't achieved his goal yet, but he isn't a failure as a warlord. if he was that he would have been killed and replaced by now. plain and simple.

That aside, his legacy or impact on the galactic narrative is more substantial than any other non primarch, (ab)human.

For me, is a great leader and warrior, he just doesn't cut it as an overall general as he fail despite even with the Planet killer to achieve everything. Sure some can be attributed to seasonal rot, but also Chaos is nothing if chaotic and even in the HH-novels its alluded to that they need humans. Plus even there he is a leader with flaws regarding his temper almost as bad as Eidolon.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
my argument is that to assess his lack of overall victory as his personal failure as many people have done is not only wrong it isn't fair to the character. It would be more accurate to say he hasn't achieved his goal yet, but he isn't a failure as a warlord. if he was that he would have been killed and replaced by now. plain and simple.

That aside, his legacy or impact on the galactic narrative is more substantial than any other non primarch, (ab)human.

For me, is a great leader and warrior, he just doesn't cut it as an overall general as he fail despite even with the Planet killer to achieve everything. Sure some can be attributed to seasonal rot, but also Chaos is nothing if chaotic and even in the HH-novels its alluded to that they need humans. Plus even there he is a leader with flaws regarding his temper almost as bad as Eidolon.

i fail to see how these things are his personal failings. I would understand your point of view if someone else could have done it better or could accomplish what he hasn't, but to say he is bad because he failed at a possibly un-doable task seems asinine. The same argument could be said of the inquisition for not rooting out the taint of chaos in the galaxy, or the Emperor of man kind for not completing the great crusade.

Im not saying he is amazing or worthy of veneration or the greatest thing since spiky sliced bread, but he isn't terrible and a total failure.

I honestly want to see from your point of view and want you to see it from mine. Please answer the three following questions and i think both things can be accomplished simultaneously:
The first I specifically about Abbadon and his accomplishments:
1. Who else in the entirety of the 40K Universe has accomplished as much with so little, and had to build every inch of what they have as opposed to having it handed to them by a fact of legacy or inheritance?
The other two are just in general about your view point on the requirements for greatness and success in this universe.
2. What is the yard stick by which we should measure success on the galactic scale?
3. What is your definition of a great warrior an leader?

The only answer that i could give to these three questions that come close to abaddon would be lord solar Marcharius.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
my argument is that to assess his lack of overall victory as his personal failure as many people have done is not only wrong it isn't fair to the character. It would be more accurate to say he hasn't achieved his goal yet, but he isn't a failure as a warlord. if he was that he would have been killed and replaced by now. plain and simple.

That aside, his legacy or impact on the galactic narrative is more substantial than any other non primarch, (ab)human.

For me, is a great leader and warrior, he just doesn't cut it as an overall general as he fail despite even with the Planet killer to achieve everything. Sure some can be attributed to seasonal rot, but also Chaos is nothing if chaotic and even in the HH-novels its alluded to that they need humans. Plus even there he is a leader with flaws regarding his temper almost as bad as Eidolon.

i fail to see how these things are his personal failings. I would understand your point of view if someone else could have done it better or could accomplish what he hasn't, but to say he is bad because he failed at a possibly un-doable task seems asinine. The same argument could be said of the inquisition for not rooting out the taint of chaos in the galaxy, or the Emperor of man kind for not completing the great crusade.

Im not saying he is amazing or worthy of veneration or the greatest thing since spiky sliced bread, but he isn't terrible and a total failure.

I honestly want to see from your point of view and want you to see it from mine. Please answer the three following questions and i think both things can be accomplished simultaneously:
The first I specifically about Abbadon and his accomplishments:
1. Who else in the entirety of the 40K Universe has accomplished as much with so little, and had to build every inch of what they have as opposed to having it handed to them by a fact of legacy or inheritance?
The other two are just in general about your view point on the requirements for greatness and success in this universe.
2. What is the yard stick by which we should measure success on the galactic scale?
3. What is your definition of a great warrior an leader?

The only answer that i could give to these three questions that come close to abaddon would be lord solar Marcharius.

Honestly I just think Abbaddon gets screwed by simple logistics mainly, and he was always a sub-par geneal as point one. He inherited the largest or second largest legion of superhumans and still fraks up.

Getting past a stumbling-block would be a start. But he is hindered a lot by like the mentioned logistics.

Abbaddon is a great leader and warrior, backed by fluff heis not a great supreme commander.

I would agree with that assessment.

 GKTiberius wrote:
I would agree with that assessment.

Thank you.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
my argument is that to assess his lack of overall victory as his personal failure as many people have done is not only wrong it isn't fair to the character. It would be more accurate to say he hasn't achieved his goal yet, but he isn't a failure as a warlord. if he was that he would have been killed and replaced by now. plain and simple.

That aside, his legacy or impact on the galactic narrative is more substantial than any other non primarch, (ab)human.

For me, is a great leader and warrior, he just doesn't cut it as an overall general as he fail despite even with the Planet killer to achieve everything. Sure some can be attributed to seasonal rot, but also Chaos is nothing if chaotic and even in the HH-novels its alluded to that they need humans. Plus even there he is a leader with flaws regarding his temper almost as bad as Eidolon.

i fail to see how these things are his personal failings. I would understand your point of view if someone else could have done it better or could accomplish what he hasn't, but to say he is bad because he failed at a possibly un-doable task seems asinine. The same argument could be said of the inquisition for not rooting out the taint of chaos in the galaxy, or the Emperor of man kind for not completing the great crusade.

Im not saying he is amazing or worthy of veneration or the greatest thing since spiky sliced bread, but he isn't terrible and a total failure.

I honestly want to see from your point of view and want you to see it from mine. Please answer the three following questions and i think both things can be accomplished simultaneously:
The first I specifically about Abbadon and his accomplishments:
1. Who else in the entirety of the 40K Universe has accomplished as much with so little, and had to build every inch of what they have as opposed to having it handed to them by a fact of legacy or inheritance?
The other two are just in general about your view point on the requirements for greatness and success in this universe.
2. What is the yard stick by which we should measure success on the galactic scale?
3. What is your definition of a great warrior an leader?

The only answer that i could give to these three questions that come close to abaddon would be lord solar Marcharius.

Honestly I just think Abbaddon gets screwed by simple logistics mainly, and he was always a sub-par geneal as point one. He inherited the largest or second largest legion of superhumans and still fraks up.

Getting past a stumbling-block would be a start. But he is hindered a lot by like the mentioned logistics.

Abbaddon is a great leader and warrior, backed by fluff heis not a great supreme commander.

He didn't actually inherit the Sons of Horus though. After the Heresy he went on a voyage of personal discovery (gap year) and when he returned the legion was broken and the other legions, lead by the Emperor's Children, had eyes on their destruction.

Abaddon had to take the legion by subverting or destroying by force it's remaining figure heads. He didn't actually default to Legion commander on account of being the first company captain.

When he took over the legion it was a fraction of his previous size and required extensive rebuilding.

Who else in the entirety of the 40K Universe has accomplished as much with so little, and had to build every inch of what they have as opposed to having it handed to them by a fact of legacy or inheritance?

That's the main point. He didn't take over the legion at all.

The Black Legion and the Sons of Horus aren't the same entities. The Sons of Horus had functionally ceased to exist with the fall of Lupercallia and the theft of Horus' corpse, and whilst many of the survivors ended up in the black legion, many (most?) of them aren't former sons. Certainly in their initial assault on the Emperor's Children they are a mixed bag of ex-justaerin, world eaters, thousand sons and emperor's children.

Abbadon's big legacy (to date, anyway) is that he's built his own damn legion from scratch.

locarno24 wrote:

Who else in the entirety of the 40K Universe has accomplished as much with so little, and had to build every inch of what they have as opposed to having it handed to them by a fact of legacy or inheritance?

That's the main point. He didn't take over the legion at all.

The Black Legion and the Sons of Horus aren't the same entities. The Sons of Horus had functionally ceased to exist with the fall of Lupercallia and the theft of Horus' corpse, and whilst many of the survivors ended up in the black legion, many (most?) of them aren't former sons. Certainly in their initial assault on the Emperor's Children they are a mixed bag of ex-justaerin, world eaters, thousand sons and emperor's children.

Abbadon's big legacy (to date, anyway) is that he's built his own damn legion from scratch.

Agreed, that is what I am saying. He built everything he has to work with and as a result, any activity outside of the eye with him at the head of a large force is a pretty impressive accomplismnet

Just a point of contention against the pro-Abaddon side of the argument; he hasn't united all the legions every crusade; often it is not more than himself, some carefully chosen warriors and maybe a second traitor legion.

But those excursions have always been more than just his black legion. whether it is another warband, a daemon host or even just a horde of cultists, there are disparate groups he brings together.

Came here for failbaddon the armless, was not disappointed.

Abaddon to me seems like hes supposed to have tactical prowess, combat power, and the forces of chaos with him.

But he just isn't on the face smashing level of the Primarchs.

Hell, they are all have not returned yet to save the Imperium yet, so obviously there are far greater threats than Abaddon out there.

If Abaddon would force Leman Russ, Vulkan, or the Lion out of retirement, then maybe.

I'd take Sly Marbo over Abaddon.

aw_man wrote:


If Abaddon would force Leman Russ, Vulkan, or the Lion out of retirement, then maybe.

Except they are not in "retirement". Russ went onto the Eye and nothing has been seen of him since, Vulkan is missing and rumored to be the ccaptive of some necron or another, and Lion is in stasis barely even alive, iirc. If they could come back, they would have.

aw_man wrote:
Came here for failbaddon the armless, was not disappointed.

Abaddon to me seems like hes supposed to have tactical prowess, combat power, and the forces of chaos with him.

But he just isn't on the face smashing level of the Primarchs.

Hell, they are all have not returned yet to save the Imperium yet, so obviously there are far greater threats than Abaddon out there.

If Abaddon would force Leman Russ, Vulkan, or the Lion out of retirement, then maybe.

I'd take Sly Marbo over Abaddon.

I wonder how Vulkan can do anything if he is part of museum's exhibition and nothing else, and sudden return of Leman Russ would be the most idiotic thing that gw have done.

Still I am chaos player and I don't see abadon as aspiring or interesting character at all.

 Whiskered wrote:

aw_man wrote:
Came here for failbaddon the armless, was not disappointed.

Abaddon to me seems like hes supposed to have tactical prowess, combat power, and the forces of chaos with him.

But he just isn't on the face smashing level of the Primarchs.

Hell, they are all have not returned yet to save the Imperium yet, so obviously there are far greater threats than Abaddon out there.

If Abaddon would force Leman Russ, Vulkan, or the Lion out of retirement, then maybe.

I'd take Sly Marbo over Abaddon.

I wonder how Vulkan can do anything if he is part of museum's exhibition and nothing else, and sudden return of Leman Russ would be the most idiotic thing that gw have done.

Still I am chaos player and I don't see abadon as aspiring or interesting character at all.

Isn't that a blood Angel? There were Trazyn who somehow got away with telling Sicarus he wanted Robute Guilliman as a museum-piece because he would look better there. I must admit I so would like to look on Sicarus' face when he was told that.

For Vulkan I thought he was in Commorragh providing entertainment.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:

aw_man wrote:
Came here for failbaddon the armless, was not disappointed.

Abaddon to me seems like hes supposed to have tactical prowess, combat power, and the forces of chaos with him.

But he just isn't on the face smashing level of the Primarchs.

Hell, they are all have not returned yet to save the Imperium yet, so obviously there are far greater threats than Abaddon out there.

If Abaddon would force Leman Russ, Vulkan, or the Lion out of retirement, then maybe.

I'd take Sly Marbo over Abaddon.

I wonder how Vulkan can do anything if he is part of museum's exhibition and nothing else, and sudden return of Leman Russ would be the most idiotic thing that gw have done.

Still I am chaos player and I don't see abadon as aspiring or interesting character at all.

Isn't that a blood Angel? There were Trazyn who somehow got away with telling Sicarus he wanted Robute Guilliman as a museum-piece because he would look better there. I must admit I so would like to look on Sicarus' face when he was told that.

For Vulkan I thought he was in Commorragh providing entertainment.

If I recall properly, one of older necron codices mentioned Vulkan.
This makes me think.
Wouldn't all that stuff that abandon have accumulated would be good addition to said museum?

I think that the one in Commorragh was The Great Khan, or whatever his name is.. it escapes me at the moment.

I thought it was Corax, he is also MIA. And good point Abbaddon with his trinkets would make a nice addition for Trazyn.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I thought it was Corax, he is also MIA. And good point Abbaddon with his trinkets would make a nice addition for Trazyn.

Corax went into the Eye of Terror, so its unlikely to be him. Lord Blackscale is right, Jaghatai Khan was last seen chasing down Eldar raiders into the Webway so he'd the most likely candidate to have been captured by the Dark Eldar.

So what other marine, chaos or loyalist, can compare with Abbadon? Either through military might, accomplishments, or personal strength of arm? The Ultra-pimp Calgar? He as a ridiculous enough model to compete with Abby, that's certain.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So what other marine, chaos or loyalist, can compare with Abbadon? Either through military might, accomplishments, or personal strength of arm? The Ultra-pimp Calgar? He as a ridiculous enough model to compete with Abby, that's certain.

Doesn't they all (the Chapter Masters) have ridiculous models?

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So what other marine, chaos or loyalist, can compare with Abbadon? Either through military might, accomplishments, or personal strength of arm? The Ultra-pimp Calgar? He as a ridiculous enough model to compete with Abby, that's certain.

Draigo with his hand tied behind his back could beat Failbaddon even if his arms hadn't fallen off.

IDK, i have seen that fight go either way multiple times. Also Draigo is the hardest Mary sue that ever Mary Sued. I dont hold any love for Abaddon, as i think there are far more interesting chaos characters *cough* Huron *Cough* Ahriman *Cough*, but to say that Abaddon is a complete failure and incompetant is wrong too. You guys make it seem like any marine could wast abbadon and do a much better job. Like it would be a piece of cake to jsut waltz in at take Terra. IF there was a bigger, badder, Chaos warlord he would have kicked the crap out of Abadon and taken over as warmaster of chaos by this point.

I feel that Draigo could kill even primarchs by him self.
Didn't he actually ripped of Mortarion's heart?

And any one that I could compare to the Abbadon would be Eldrad.

The TT-fight is 66% in favor of Failabbaddon the Armless according to calculators.

You just have to love the thing about alone and unaided Draigo wiped the floor with a demigod of death and his bodyguard and then tortured him just because he got angry.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The TT-fight is 66% in favor of Failabbaddon the Armless according to calculators.

You just have to love the thing about alone and unaided Draigo wiped the floor with a demigod of death and his bodyguard and then tortured him just because he got angry.

As I was afraid.

Hell I know, Draigo will kill abandon and become new war master of chaos.

As I was afraid.

Hell I know, Draigo will kill abandon and become new war master of chaos.

I'd actually be interested in Draigo as a character if that happened.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

As I was afraid.

Hell I know, Draigo will kill abandon and become new war master of chaos.

I'd actually be interested in Draigo as a character if that happened.

I don't know if would be dumb or amazing, but at least chaos forces would had mary sue on their side.

Well, Draigo is already apparently in Slaanesh's pocket, so it's not that far off.

 curran12 wrote:
Well, Draigo is already apparently in Slaanesh's pocket, so it's not that far off.

Wait, wait WHAT? that's new to me, where this piece come from?

 Whiskered wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Well, Draigo is already apparently in Slaanesh's pocket, so it's not that far off.

Wait, wait WHAT? that's new to me, where this piece come from?

Some chaos fluff refers to a white knight that roamed the warp, but eventually was corrupted by Slaanesh. Some people (mostly Chaos players) speculate this is Draigo. Other people (mostly Grey Knight players) believe that this is simply lies spawned of the chaos gods.

 Whiskered wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Well, Draigo is already apparently in Slaanesh's pocket, so it's not that far off.

Wait, wait WHAT? that's new to me, where this piece come from?

He did something to some daemonettes that were special to Slaanesh. This is not a sexual comment.

 Whiskered wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Well, Draigo is already apparently in Slaanesh's pocket, so it's not that far off.

Wait, wait WHAT? that's new to me, where this piece come from?

It is inconclusive, but from the Daemon codex:



This is the more full story. Starts at "The Palace of Slaanesh"

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/23511111/images/1362440862960.jpg

Now while it is certain that there is no mention by name of identifying detail of Draigo, I think there is a pretty solid case to be made that it is him. For one, the mention of silver repeatedly lends a visual ideal of what this wanderer is. Also, the fact that it is a powerful wanderer indeed. A lot is made about his willpower, another trait needed if one was to wander the Realm of Chaos for long and one that Draigo has in abundance.

That's very interesting I have to say, maybe there is hope for chaos after all. ( who I am trying to lie to)

Still Abbodon is at least good in CQC.

 Whiskered wrote:
I feel that Draigo could kill even primarchs by him self.
Didn't he actually ripped of Mortarion's heart?

And any one that I could compare to the Abbadon would be Eldrad.

Draigo didn't beat Mortarion in a fight. Draigo was actually on the edge of death while Mortarion thrashed him, but Draigo then psychically ripped Morty's daemon name out of his mind and banished him.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
I feel that Draigo could kill even primarchs by him self.
Didn't he actually ripped of Mortarion's heart?

And any one that I could compare to the Abbadon would be Eldrad.

Draigo didn't beat Mortarion in a fight. Draigo was actually on the edge of death while Mortarion thrashed him, but Draigo then psychically ripped Morty's daemon name out of his mind and banished him.

So basically he Mary Sued him then?
I totally remember something about him carving the former Grey Knights chapter master's name into Mortarion's chest with a chainsword or something along those lines. Are you sure he that just magicked him away?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The TT-fight is 66% in favor of Failabbaddon the Armless according to calculators.

You just have to love the thing about alone and unaided Draigo wiped the floor with a demigod of death and his bodyguard and then tortured him just because he got angry.

I read that as "...and then tortured him because he got hungry."

Then it made me think of snickers. I think theres a viable GW-snickers tie in right there.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
I feel that Draigo could kill even primarchs by him self.
Didn't he actually ripped of Mortarion's heart?

And any one that I could compare to the Abbadon would be Eldrad.

Draigo didn't beat Mortarion in a fight. Draigo was actually on the edge of death while Mortarion thrashed him, but Draigo then psychically ripped Morty's daemon name out of his mind and banished him.

So basically he Mary Sued him then?
I totally remember something about him carving the former Grey Knights chapter master's name into Mortarion's chest with a chainsword or something along those lines. Are you sure he that just magicked him away?

Speaking the True Name of any Daemon binds them to your will and sends them back to the warp if so wished. After uttering it, Morty vanished in an explosion of gore as his physical body was destroyed and his soul kicked into the Warp. Draigo then picked up his heart from the pile of organs and scribbled his master's name into the tissue.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
I feel that Draigo could kill even primarchs by him self.
Didn't he actually ripped of Mortarion's heart?

And any one that I could compare to the Abbadon would be Eldrad.

Draigo didn't beat Mortarion in a fight. Draigo was actually on the edge of death while Mortarion thrashed him, but Draigo then psychically ripped Morty's daemon name out of his mind and banished him.

So basically he Mary Sued him then?
I totally remember something about him carving the former Grey Knights chapter master's name into Mortarion's chest with a chainsword or something along those lines. Are you sure he that just magicked him away?

Speaking the True Name of any Daemon binds them to your will and sends them back to the warp if so wished. After uttering it, Morty vanished in an explosion of gore as his physical body was destroyed and his soul kicked into the Warp. Draigo then picked up his heart from the pile of organs and scribbled his master's name into the tissue.

Well, it's still pretty silly to just pick up a heart and scribble someone's name in it with magic marker.

 Kain wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
I feel that Draigo could kill even primarchs by him self.
Didn't he actually ripped of Mortarion's heart?

And any one that I could compare to the Abbadon would be Eldrad.

Draigo didn't beat Mortarion in a fight. Draigo was actually on the edge of death while Mortarion thrashed him, but Draigo then psychically ripped Morty's daemon name out of his mind and banished him.

So basically he Mary Sued him then?
I totally remember something about him carving the former Grey Knights chapter master's name into Mortarion's chest with a chainsword or something along those lines. Are you sure he that just magicked him away?

Speaking the True Name of any Daemon binds them to your will and sends them back to the warp if so wished. After uttering it, Morty vanished in an explosion of gore as his physical body was destroyed and his soul kicked into the Warp. Draigo then picked up his heart from the pile of organs and scribbled his master's name into the tissue.

Well, it's still pretty silly to just pick up a heart and scribble someone's name in it with magic marker.

You're missing an important fact. The written form of a Grey Knight's name is itself a mark of warding. Draigo's successor had been bred for the purpose of defeating Mortarion and thus his name was keyed as a mark of warding against Mortarion specifically.

Oh I see. People just neglect to mention that Draigo barely won. I guess its impressive that he could rip his true name out of Mortarion's mind though.

TBH, I still don't get why Draigo put his former chapter master's name on the heart anyways. The obvious answer is honor him/ peeve off Mortarion, but I don't REALLY think that having your name on a Daemon's organ is all that honorable. In fact it would seem to me that it would DEFILE that person and their memory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
never mind. was typing when you posted

jareddm wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
I feel that Draigo could kill even primarchs by him self.
Didn't he actually ripped of Mortarion's heart?

And any one that I could compare to the Abbadon would be Eldrad.

Draigo didn't beat Mortarion in a fight. Draigo was actually on the edge of death while Mortarion thrashed him, but Draigo then psychically ripped Morty's daemon name out of his mind and banished him.

So basically he Mary Sued him then?
I totally remember something about him carving the former Grey Knights chapter master's name into Mortarion's chest with a chainsword or something along those lines. Are you sure he that just magicked him away?

Speaking the True Name of any Daemon binds them to your will and sends them back to the warp if so wished. After uttering it, Morty vanished in an explosion of gore as his physical body was destroyed and his soul kicked into the Warp. Draigo then picked up his heart from the pile of organs and scribbled his master's name into the tissue.

Well, it's still pretty silly to just pick up a heart and scribble someone's name in it with magic marker.

You're missing an important fact. The written form of a Grey Knight's name is itself a mark of warding. Draigo's successor had been bred for the purpose of defeating Mortarion and thus his name was keyed as a mark of warding against Mortarion specifically.

See, when you say "bred" my mind goes to dirty places.

Dont get me wrong. I love grey knights, which is why I play them, but Draigo is the biggest Mary sue that ever Mary sued. He is Ward's answer to the lack of Primarchs, and in all honesty under current rules could have a reasonable chance against any named character out there. But truth be told I hate him, and so do a lot of the Grey knights players I know. The main reason is because he is a Mary Sue, he didn’t really earn the respect the fluff affords him, and he isn’t the pinnacle of what a Grey Knight HQ character or Lord of War should be, mainly because while he should be awesome, he should be closer to what Mephsiton is/was. His Psyker powers should be the centerpiece rather than an afterthought IMO. My favorite character that the 5th ed codex had was Mordrak, Capt.PTSD. The fluff surrounding Draigo is awful too. He is lost in the Warp, but the chapter won’t nominate a new supreme grand master. I personally like the theory that the Silver Knight in the chaos codex is Draigo, but with the added layer that all of it is happening in his mind, and he is already broken and dying from being in the warp and Tzeench is just fething with him.

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

And then throwing axes at the paste.

 the shrouded lord wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

And then throwing axes at the paste.

All while screaming, cursing, and hurling insults like a call of duty player.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Oh I see. People just neglect to mention that Draigo barely won. I guess its impressive that he could rip his true name out of Mortarion's mind though.

TBH, I still don't get why Draigo put his former chapter master's name on the heart anyways. The obvious answer is honor him/ peeve off Mortarion, but I don't REALLY think that having your name on a Daemon's organ is all that honorable. In fact it would seem to me that it would DEFILE that person and their memory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
never mind. was typing when you posted

He didn't do that "fair" either. Draigo basically poked Mortarion in the eye, temporarily ripped his name out, then forgot it immediately after use because it's unknowable or something weird like that.

 Kain wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

And then throwing axes at the paste.

All while screaming, cursing, and hurling insults like a call of duty player.

Well..... The Gods did make the surviving deamon primarchs swear loyalty to Abby....or something like that... I think..... Damn it, I need to brush up on my lore!

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

And then throwing axes at the paste.

All while screaming, cursing, and hurling insults like a call of duty player.

Well..... The Gods did make the surviving deamon primarchs swear loyalty to Abby....or something like that... I think..... Damn it, I need to brush up on my lore!

All except Magnus, who wouldn't grant Abaddon an audience so he had to settle for Ahriman's followers for his Thousand Sons contingent.

Good ol' magnus, he's my man.

nareik wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

And then throwing axes at the paste.

All while screaming, cursing, and hurling insults like a call of duty player.

Well..... The Gods did make the surviving deamon primarchs swear loyalty to Abby....or something like that... I think..... Damn it, I need to brush up on my lore!

All except Magnus, who wouldn't grant Abaddon an audience so he had to settle for Ahriman's followers for his Thousand Sons contingent.

Haha sounds like a good read, Where did you get that from?>?

aw_man wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The TT-fight is 66% in favor of Failabbaddon the Armless according to calculators.

You just have to love the thing about alone and unaided Draigo wiped the floor with a demigod of death and his bodyguard and then tortured him just because he got angry.

I read that as "...and then tortured him because he got hungry."

Then it made me think of snickers. I think theres a viable GW-snickers tie in right there.

Wouldn't that be really revolting, snacking on a follower of Nurgle?

Apparently Matt Ward thinks anger solves a lot of stuff as the Ultramarines in the fifth edition solved many a battle just by getting angry.

 Khonsu wrote:

nareik wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'd like to see Abaddon tell Angron he's a scrub. It would be like a great white shark throttling a human into paste

And then throwing axes at the paste.

All while screaming, cursing, and hurling insults like a call of duty player.

Well..... The Gods did make the surviving deamon primarchs swear loyalty to Abby....or something like that... I think..... Damn it, I need to brush up on my lore!

All except Magnus, who wouldn't grant Abaddon an audience so he had to settle for Ahriman's followers for his Thousand Sons contingent.

Haha sounds like a good read, Where did you get that from?>?

I think it is mentioned in a few places. The BL supplement definitely mentions it. One of the narrative scenarios in the back of the book is fighting in a colossal arena against khornate daemons in order to win the favour of the Daemon Primarch Angron.

For a while, I thought we were finally free from inane argument-bait LightKing threads. Oh well.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
For a while, I thought we were finally free from inane argument-bait LightKing threads. Oh well.

Oh come on, those were fun. Stupid, but fun. Then again, I feed on conflict and despair so that probably has something to do with my opinion of it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
In 200 years, Horus conquered the known galaxy. In 10,000 years, Abaddon hasn't even managed to fully open the door of his prison.
After that, he went traitor and didn't do as much conquering.

Read HH: Conquest! He no longer sits on his throne twiddling his thumbs for most of the Heresy.

Anyway, Abaddon's legacy ultimately depends on whether he succeeds or not. He's a different man in a different era, aiming to succeed where Horus failed in a vastly different time period. Comparisons are inevitable by virtue of Abaddon's past but they're pretty pointless, especially while we're still waiting for ADB to pump out a few more novels in the Black Legion series to flesh out his achievements/failures.

EDIT: ADB also pumped out a fantastic blog post on Abaddon

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
In 200 years, Horus conquered the known galaxy. In 10,000 years, Abaddon hasn't even managed to fully open the door of his prison.
After that, he went traitor and didn't do as much conquering.

Read HH: Conquest! He no longer sits on his throne twiddling his thumbs for most of the Heresy.

Anyway, Abaddon's legacy ultimately depends on whether he succeeds or not. He's a different man in a different era, aiming to succeed where Horus failed in a vastly different time period. Comparisons are inevitable by virtue of Abaddon's past but they're pretty pointless, especially while we're still waiting for ADB to pump out a few more novels in the Black Legion series to flesh out his achievements/failures.

EDIT: ADB also pumped out a fantastic blog post on Abaddon

"Failed"? I'd hardly say Horus failed. Sure, he didn't completely kill the Emperor or destroy the IoM but he definitely fethed it up. He did way more than Abaddon, turning several Legions traitor and nearly annihilating the other. What has Abaddon done in comparison?

So I'd think twice before saying Horus failed.

Abaddon>Horus as everything Horus has done is fictional.
Whereas Abaddon has a real legacy, his arms will forever be down the back of my couch.

ADB basically seem to talk smack about Horus in order to talk up Abbaddon.

 ferret61 wrote:
Abaddon>Horus as everything Horus has done is fictional.
Whereas Abaddon has a real legacy, his arms will forever be down the back of my couch.

Alright, I'm sold

LightKing wrote:
he achieved more then Horus and any other Primarch

in the words of Abaddon, a student of Horus that admired him so much

"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away." - Abaddon


and its funny..that Abaddon not only has a greater legacy then Horus or any of the other primarchs, but he could 1 v1 beat the crap of any of them in a fight (that's current abaddon vs. pre-heresy primarchs)

Well by "legacy" I'm going to assume you mean impact on the galaxy. If that is the case then you are very wrong because if Horus never wounded the emperor I doubt Abby would be alive (The emperor leads a crusade of vengeance vs all traitors is bond not to end well for abby) so Horus didn't only wound the emperor but he is the cause (Bring the traitor primarchs in) of the death/immobility of many loyalist primarchs. Arguably the best primarchs where out of action due to HH so Horus made the galaxy safer for abby to do what he did. Killing any primarch gives you a amazing legacy so that one that killed manus and the other one has a better one then even abby. Making the codex was undoubtedly the most altering thing post heresy done by a primarch so Girlyman has a better one.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
ADB basically seem to talk smack about Horus in order to talk up Abbaddon.

No he isn’t. What he is saying is that Abbaddon is human and wants to stay human. If he wanted to ascend he could, but that would mean that he loses himself to the will of the chaos gods. He is using the chaos gods to an end but doesn’t ultimately serve them. Meaning that in that point of view Abbaddon has done the one thing Horus couldn't, say no to the chaos powers, which makes him stronger. He is in it for himself and to a lesser and very perverted extent humanity. He wasn't detracting form Horus's accomplishment, but rather his motivations and the machinations that moved him. He was a pawn, who was being used by Chaos. Abbaddon saw this, learned form it, and understand the nature of chaos, which means, while Horus was doomed to fail, Abbadon, holding onto his humanity, means that there is a chance he could succeed. Chaos doesn't want to win the long war, they want it to keep going because it is what is most profitable for them. winning means that humanity is destroyed which will cut them off from the most potent source of power they have, humanity's emotions.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
ADB basically seem to talk smack about Horus in order to talk up Abbaddon.

No he isn’t. What he is saying is that Abbaddon is human and wants to stay human. If he wanted to ascend he could, but that would mean that he loses himself to the will of the chaos gods. He is using the chaos gods to an end but doesn’t ultimately serve them. Meaning that in that point of view Abbaddon has done the one thing Horus couldn't, say no to the chaos powers, which makes him stronger. He is in it for himself and to a lesser and very perverted extent humanity. He wasn't detracting form Horus's accomplishment, but rather his motivations and the machinations that moved him. He was a pawn, who was being used by Chaos. Abbaddon saw this, learned form it, and understand the nature of chaos, which means, while Horus was doomed to fail, Abbadon, holding onto his humanity, means that there is a chance he could succeed. Chaos doesn't want to win the long war, they want it to keep going because it is what is most profitable for them. winning means that humanity is destroyed which will cut them off from the most potent source of power they have, humanity's emotions.

Abbaddon want to be Empy, and replace him. I'm sorry but thats the agenda of Abbaddon as he can't be used by Chaos unlike Horus. according to ADB. Honestly all it lacked was: Abbaddon rules and Horus sucks.