I am not offering any ideas beyond my Orky one which is an infantry spam. Green tide all the way and hope you get enough PK's close enough to it that you can kill it. I would really like everyone else to post how they intend to counter the WK (AND THE WK ONLY!) if you want to start another topic for a different unit go for it. otherwise keep it simply on how to counter WK's by each race.

Green tide could be ugly now that the Serpent Shield is one use only with a far more limited range. The thing you want to keep in mind is opening a hole for it through the possible wall of jet bikes.

Dark Angels:

Bring a war hound Titan as even if the wk is superior to his old self he is still inferior to a Titan proper. Black Knights with rad grenades would also help bop him

 ionusx wrote:
Dark Angels:

Bring a war hound Titan as even if the wk is superior to his old self he is still inferior to a Titan proper. Black Knights with rad grenades would also help bop him

Better not let the wraithknight get into close combat with your warhound. He is actually a good melee unit as well and will stomp a warhound to the ground in melee.

For Dark Angels, it would be a knight for a knight, whether that be Black Knights with Rad grens and plasma talons or Deathwing Knights. Of course, surviving the rest of the army could be a chore.

Not a whole lot has changed for the vs SM matchup. Scarans are still a great choice against Eldar skimmers. Grav weapons still annihilate wraith units and heavy armor aspect warriors. Bolters still rip apart guardians.

Tac spam is going to have it rough. Windriders can beat them at the MSU game, and outshoot them. I think Eldritch Storm is going to be a hidden gem for wiping out marines en masse. Tacs cannot effectively tarpit WK's anymore (since it can just stomp it's way out).

Marine beatsticks with EW are going to have it rough against D weapons that can strip off multiple wounds.

Hammernators have decent odds if you can get them in with it, but Grav-guns are a more points-efficient approach for Space Marines. Literally any other ranged D-strength weapon works but there aren't many that are inexpensive enough to be an efficient approach. As to spammable small arms Radium Carbines on BS-boost turn and Markerlighted Pulse Rifles aren't particularly points-inefficient but you need a lot of them. You'd need ten Black Knights plus the rad shell to kill it if it had an Inv, ML Devastators would need to live long enough to get a few volleys off to kill them.

Sisters : change army; change game; change company editing the game just to be sure.

Grey Knights have to get three ID effects through the T8/3+ gate, that'd be eighty Psilencer shots so melee attacks would work better; if Hammerhand is brought into play that's only 27 halberd attacks, if you can get a GK squad into melee with the thing. Hammers, Hammerhand, and Paladins for higher WS brings it down to only about eight attacks, that might actually be effective if you can get four or five Paladins with hammers into a fight with it (to account for surviving its attacks before I1).

Yay, another Eldar thread. We really needed one.

This should be in 40k Tactics, though, which is set up specifically for questions like this.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sisters : change army; change game; change company editing the game just to be sure.

Under the current Codex? Toss the Exorcists at it and pray they don't die before it's dead.

(That or get Dominions up in its face with meltaguns and pray they don't die before it's dead)

(Or Allies. That's the solution GW seems intent on pushing as the answer to Codex imbalance.)

(Sisters do provide part of one of the sillier deathstars in the game, if you have Hammernators, Stern, and a Ministorum Priest you have a 2+ rerollable Inv)

What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights have to get three ID effects through the T8/3+ gate, that'd be eighty Psilencer shots so melee attacks would work better; if Hammerhand is brought into play that's only 27 halberd attacks, if you can get a GK squad into melee with the thing. Hammers, Hammerhand, and Paladins for higher WS brings it down to only about eight attacks, that might actually be effective if you can get four or five Paladins with hammers into a fight with it (to account for surviving its attacks before I1).

...Psilencers can't hurt it, literally melee with Hammers and Force is our only recourse.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Under the current Codex? Toss the Exorcists at it and pray they don't die before it's dead.

Nah, play another game.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(Sisters do provide part of one of the sillier deathstars in the game, if you have Hammernators, Stern, and a Ministorum Priest you have a 2+ rerollable Inv)

I ain't playing no marines.

In 30k Iron Tyrants, a full squad, and Sicarians. Otherwise, 20 man assault squads, Night Raptors with chainblade halberds.

 Quickjager wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights have to get three ID effects through the T8/3+ gate, that'd be eighty Psilencer shots so melee attacks would work better; if Hammerhand is brought into play that's only 27 halberd attacks, if you can get a GK squad into melee with the thing. Hammers, Hammerhand, and Paladins for higher WS brings it down to only about eight attacks, that might actually be effective if you can get four or five Paladins with hammers into a fight with it (to account for surviving its attacks before I1).

...Psilencers can't hurt it, literally melee with Hammers and Force is our only recourse.

The Dreadknight-scale Psilencer can.

As to CSM...Kasyr Lutien Typhon, Daemon allies, drown it in Screamers? Be'lakor and fly circles around it Shrieking repeatedly?

Well Khorne Daemonkin warp talons will tear it a new one.
Or CSM (Khorne) Warp Talons if you somehow manage to give them +1S, not sure how you'd do that though. Or reduce the WK's toughness a little.

Possesed could do the same if you get lucky and hit Ap3, in which case they'd be even better, but that's luck and getting possessed to charge a WK isn't exactly going to be easy.

If you're feeling lucky, a sorcerer could kill it with the right biomancy spell(s) and force.

A fire raptor/storm eagle might work due to it not being able to retaliate and it's size. Otherwise all you can do really is whittle it down to size. Lascannon Rapiers aren't half bad.

Tyranids have it rough. I am thinking I might have to roll out a true swarm list again... 2 or 3 'Endless Swarm' formations, a few Trygons for re entry, and Zoeys or Warriors for fearless. I think I could put down at least 30 fearless units in a 1850 point game.

-edit: not to say that I would even try to kill it, hahaha. Ahahaha. Ahh. The plan is to ignore it, because Wraithknight.

Vanilla Marines. Grav Guns!

*drops mic and walks away

Tau:

AP4 is enough to deal with Swooping Hawks, Banshees (be sure to run from them or kill them before they charge) and Dire Avengers.

3+ stuff will need either volume of fire or plasma. Warp Spiders will be quite a chore to kill, with their 2d6 jump everytime they get targetted and damaging on Init (!!). I think Missile Pods will deal with them, as even jumping 2d6 will keep them inside MPs' range.
Plasma on Striking Scorpions will need Ignore Cover unless they already fought something.

Guardians die to Fire Warriors (inside a devilfish is enough to ferry them close)

The flyers fall for VTs or Barracudas/Remoras, but they're dangerous.

The Wraithguards will fall for plasma/missile pod/HYMP, but if they catch you...

Wraithknight... I don't have a good answer. Many Sky Rays and/or many Melta Crisis. A Y'vahra could help.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights have to get three ID effects through the T8/3+ gate, that'd be eighty Psilencer shots so melee attacks would work better; if Hammerhand is brought into play that's only 27 halberd attacks, if you can get a GK squad into melee with the thing. Hammers, Hammerhand, and Paladins for higher WS brings it down to only about eight attacks, that might actually be effective if you can get four or five Paladins with hammers into a fight with it (to account for surviving its attacks before I1).

...Psilencers can't hurt it, literally melee with Hammers and Force is our only recourse.

The Dreadknight-scale Psilencer can.

As to CSM...Kasyr Lutien Typhon, Daemon allies, drown it in Screamers? Be'lakor and fly circles around it Shrieking repeatedly?

No it can't. You really want to argue this with me?

BA: I need Mephiston with a good quickening, force, and sanguine sword all turned on. And of course he has to reach the thing in melee somehow. Stars aligned moment.

Grav bikers can do a bit of damage, but i have like 2 in my collection, because I don't really like the "marines on bikes" aesthetic.

Can't think of much else that wouldn't just get stomped in melee, fnp negated with a low rate of fire, etc. I don't own any sicarans, but happily accept donations!

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I am not offering any ideas beyond my Orky one which is an infantry spam. Green tide all the way and hope you get enough PK's close enough to it that you can kill it. I would really like everyone else to post how they intend to counter the WK (AND THE WK ONLY!) if you want to start another topic for a different unit go for it. otherwise keep it simply on how to counter WK's by each race.

Math shows 40 scatbikers kill 90 orks in the first turn of shooting. And that's only 1080 points, leaving plenty of points for other things. Try again.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights have to get three ID effects through the T8/3+ gate, that'd be eighty Psilencer shots so melee attacks would work better; if Hammerhand is brought into play that's only 27 halberd attacks, if you can get a GK squad into melee with the thing. Hammers, Hammerhand, and Paladins for higher WS brings it down to only about eight attacks, that might actually be effective if you can get four or five Paladins with hammers into a fight with it (to account for surviving its attacks before I1).

Psilencer shots can't wound a Wraithknight. Str 4, T8.

You won't ever get into assault with GK infantry without them getting pretty well shot up first*, which leaves you with Dreadknights. Dreadknights are fast enough to catch Wraithknights, but now that WKs have access to Str D and hit at a higher initiative, you're more likely to lose the Dreadknight than anything else. So, really, you have to take a bunch of Psycannons and pray you roll a ton of Rends, and that your opponent fails their FNP. Which is a terrible plan. It didn't work against Wraithknights before**, and they've only gotten tougher.


*Paladins are durable enough to walk across the board and get into assault, but he'll get several rounds of Str D shooting at you, still hits first, will get to Stomp, so congratulations, you just used a 1000pts of your army for half the game to kill a 300pt model, and probably lost most of your dudes doing it. Meanwhile, those Jetbikes you've been ignoring trying to catch the Wraithknight will shoot up the rest of your army and jump on objectives.

**Previously, you had to use Dreadknights to catch Wraithknights in assault, which was kind of iffy since the Dreadknights tended to get shot to death first but at least it was a decent approach.

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Belakor to mind control it. Use his crap against him.

Space Marines:

Centurions with grav, in blood angels drop pods

Grab a sang priest in your BA allies, grab some scouts,

Throw the sang priest in the pods with your grav centurions, now you have T5 2+save 5+FNP units that with grav cannons and Missiles deal 7 unsaved wounds average to the WK. rendering it ded.

Even with your centurions out of position and lets say... under 120 scatter lasers shots, with the 5+ FNP they SHOULD have atleast 1 wound left on a single centurion left, the the rest of your army can move up (Including that land raider so it can massacre the rest of the enemy)

and after this you have 1100 pnts left to throw into land raiders. (3 land raiders!)

 Quickjager wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights have to get three ID effects through the T8/3+ gate, that'd be eighty Psilencer shots so melee attacks would work better; if Hammerhand is brought into play that's only 27 halberd attacks, if you can get a GK squad into melee with the thing. Hammers, Hammerhand, and Paladins for higher WS brings it down to only about eight attacks, that might actually be effective if you can get four or five Paladins with hammers into a fight with it (to account for surviving its attacks before I1).

...Psilencers can't hurt it, literally melee with Hammers and Force is our only recourse.

The Dreadknight-scale Psilencer can.

As to CSM...Kasyr Lutien Typhon, Daemon allies, drown it in Screamers? Be'lakor and fly circles around it Shrieking repeatedly?

No it can't. You really want to argue this with me?

Not base no, but how about with the minus toughness biomancy power? Oh and misfortune gives rending does it not?

Why wouldn't I just use regular psycannons who have rending naturally?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why wouldn't I just use regular psycannons who have rending naturally?

psilencers have force, don't cost twice as much(not sure of this) and have more shots

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why wouldn't I just use regular psycannons who have rending naturally?

psilencers have force, don't cost twice as much(not sure of this) and have more shots

psilencers can't wound t8

 CrownAxe wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why wouldn't I just use regular psycannons who have rending naturally?

psilencers have force, don't cost twice as much(not sure of this) and have more shots

psilencers can't wound t8

they can however wound t7, and if have misfortune on the wraithknight can wound with rending even if he's t8

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why wouldn't I just use regular psycannons who have rending naturally?

psilencers have force, don't cost twice as much(not sure of this) and have more shots

psilencers can't wound t8

they can however wound t7, and if have misfortune on the wraithknight can wound with rending even if he's t8

So i have to roll a psychic power to make the pscilencer do anything.

That's not good. What if you don't roll the pertinent power?

Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

If I figure right for Space Marines, a 21 Grav salute. (20.25 shots).

A full squad of Vanguard Veterans with jump packs, all Grav-slingers (very expensive) gives you 20 shots, add a character for 22 shots.

Just a thought.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why wouldn't I just use regular psycannons who have rending naturally?

psilencers have force, don't cost twice as much(not sure of this) and have more shots

psilencers can't wound t8

they can however wound t7, and if have misfortune on the wraithknight can wound with rending even if he's t8

So i have to roll a psychic power to make the pscilencer do anything.

That's not good. What if you don't roll the pertinent power?

I'm not saying they're the go-to choice against WK, I'm just saying maybe to grab one as a second weapon on the DK, or if you're low on points to grab one instead because a single 6 to wound with misfortune means d3 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eadartri wrote:
If I figure right for Space Marines, a 21 Grav salute. (20.25 shots).

A full squad of Vanguard Veterans with jump packs, all Grav-slingers (very expensive) gives you 20 shots, add a character for 22 shots.

Just a thought.

looks pretty cool actually, model all as boba-fett.
how many points are they?

Boba Fett? Why so that can all die embarrassing deaths?

For BA that would be 505 pts.

It will be fairly easy to list most counters, as the number of them dropped dramatically,
(I am considering the WK to come with ranged D weapons, as that is the best loadout.

First of all, psychic counters:
Rending psychic power
Psychic shriek (especially with LD modifiers)
Invisibility + a unit that wants to get close to the WK

SM: Grav weapons.
Eldar: D weapons, other WK, pseudo rending or rending psychic power + scatbikes
D. Eldar: Next to nothing. Some stuff with fleshbane or taloi perhaps, good luck getting them into cc. LD modifiers + psychic allies perhaps.
IG: Nothing. Punisher Pask might do a few wounds. Rending psychic power + IG blob.
Tau: lots of fusion or missilesides + buffmander with MC hunter. Lots of firewarriors + ethereal can hurt it.
SW: TWC will take casualties, but should still go straight over a WK if given the chance.
IK: Nothing. If you can catch the WK in cc then great. But the WK costs less, is more maneuverable, and its ranged D weapons are more dangerous to you than your battlecannon is to it. Even in cc it i no sure thing.
Sisters: Nothing.
tyrannids: Nothing.
Daemons: Be'lakor or Nurgle Iron arm DP with balesword, + a lot of buffs. Grimoire, invis etc will all help even the odds. Daemonettes also remain a great option.
Harlequins: Caresses and kisses all have potential. The fleshbane pistol would work good, but nobody takes it as it's over priced.
Orks: Power Klaws. Getting them there is the problem. Scatbikes will shred a greentide in a few turns. MANZ can still get the job done, particularly bully boyz, but it is very luck dependent.
Khorne daemons: Practically nothing. Lots of fleshhounds with an axe of khorne of PF character maybe?
Skitarii: Radiation guns. The elite choices have a few things that can hurt the WK in cc, but i wouldn't hold my breath over them making it there.
Necrons: Not a lot. Lychguard with shields are one of the few units that will tarpit in a reasonable manner. Might also do a few wounds with an overlord in there. Deathmarks can do a few wounds on the turn they come in.

Ok, I thing that covers most of them.

I've probably missed a few things and some of the more obscure FW choices.

It's best to tarpit it. If you can get past the rest of the codex. Cause investing points in actually killing a WK is a waste of time considering how low it's cost is.

I'd rather focus on the rest of the undercosted overpowered gak first.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

GW just screwed up here at a monumental level. There is no counter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
at least not yet.

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

I played against Eldar yesterday with my Dark Harlies, and while i didn't win i did kill of the Wraith Knight in my alpha strike.I believe i was forcing Psy-Shriek on a -5 through various modifiers, took off 6 wounds and plinked the last few off with Blasters and Splinter Fire.

But then again, should a model that costs under 300pts need my ENTIRE alpha strike just to kill this model?

 koooaei wrote:
It's best to tarpit it.

Before I would have agreed with you.
Now however it is difficult to tarpit. Stomp attacks mean that most viable tarpits get removed quickly, and won't hold for more than a few turns.
They also allow the WK to snipe out important models, like priests and powerfists.

Most armies are simply not capable of tarpitting them effectively anymore.

Some people in other threads have brought up gauss as a method for necrons. Let me just throw out some numbers for various units to show why I disagree, and give people a better understanding of what weapons do and do not work.

Number of shots on target to kill a WK with various weapons (presuming no cover save or other outside effects)
Lascannons: 12
Grav weapons (no re-roll wounds): 12
Krak missiles: 16
Shuriken weapons (or any rending hit needing a 6 to wound): 48
Radium carbine: 72
Guass, poison, pulse rifles (and other weapons needing a 6 to wound without ap3 or better): 144

Some things to note:
1) The listed damage for ap1-3 weapons will in practice be lower than listed, due to cover and invulnerable saves.

2) The listed values are for number of hits. Factoring in BS hit percentages will increase all numbers.

Of the listed weapons the grav and radium carbines strike me as being particularly effective.
3 centurions will still take down a WK a turn, 6 gravguns on bike will do the same thing.
Skitarii need 30 vanguard firing to bring a WK down in 1 turn. That's only 300 points, and does not rely on getting the WK out of cover.

With Nids just tarp it them with endless swarm..

What is the chance that in an eldar army with a WK it won't be under the effect of invisibility?

 Vector Strike wrote:
Tau:

AP4 is enough to deal with Swooping Hawks, Banshees (be sure to run from them or kill them before they charge) and Dire Avengers.

3+ stuff will need either volume of fire or plasma. Warp Spiders will be quite a chore to kill, with their 2d6 jump everytime they get targetted and damaging on Init (!!). I think Missile Pods will deal with them, as even jumping 2d6 will keep them inside MPs' range.
Plasma on Striking Scorpions will need Ignore Cover unless they already fought something.

Guardians die to Fire Warriors (inside a devilfish is enough to ferry them close)

The flyers fall for VTs or Barracudas/Remoras, but they're dangerous.

The Wraithguards will fall for plasma/missile pod/HYMP, but if they catch you...

Wraithknight... I don't have a good answer. Many Sky Rays and/or many Melta Crisis. A Y'vahra could help.

Ion Accelerator Riptide would do well against Warp Spiders. I doubt they can jump outside the range of it, and the models pretty big so could look over LoS terrain.

Buffmander with something that can dish out a lot of shots would do quite well against a WK.

Just shoot the WK. Will you kill it before it blows up it's points in return? Probably not...ranged D son.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Tau:

AP4 is enough to deal with Swooping Hawks, Banshees (be sure to run from them or kill them before they charge) and Dire Avengers.

3+ stuff will need either volume of fire or plasma. Warp Spiders will be quite a chore to kill, with their 2d6 jump everytime they get targetted and damaging on Init (!!). I think Missile Pods will deal with them, as even jumping 2d6 will keep them inside MPs' range.
Plasma on Striking Scorpions will need Ignore Cover unless they already fought something.

Guardians die to Fire Warriors (inside a devilfish is enough to ferry them close)

The flyers fall for VTs or Barracudas/Remoras, but they're dangerous.

The Wraithguards will fall for plasma/missile pod/HYMP, but if they catch you...

Wraithknight... I don't have a good answer. Many Sky Rays and/or many Melta Crisis. A Y'vahra could help.

Ion Accelerator Riptide would do well against Warp Spiders. I doubt they can jump outside the range of it, and the models pretty big so could look over LoS terrain.

Buffmander with something that can dish out a lot of shots would do quite well against a WK.

With so easy access to D weaponry, I'm reluctant to bring a Riptide against Eldar. I'm more prone to bring more models to reduce the D impact on me.

Skitarii onagers with that neutron gun?

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Any thoughts for pure CSM?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Any thoughts for pure CSM?

Flip the table and walk away?

No, actually, if you can get there without getting annihilated (a big if), a DP with the Mace should be able to make short work of it. A Juggerlord with the Axe and an escort of Spawn might manage it as well. Again, though, that's assuming you don't just eat a bunch of D shots on the way there.

I do also like the idea of Be'lakor just flying around it shrieking.

Just opened a thread in tactica for that. So far Black mace prince seems to be your best bet :S

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Lol not quite, remember it has uses against other MC too.

No counter for Necron, wat?

Wraiths w/ beamers
Vault (<--- Hits harder, hits further, hits bigger, can be repaired, natural iWND on top)
Burning One Enclave
Pylon

Given, 2/4 are pretty much Apoc-level (But hey, Wraithknight.) but the other two work pretty well. BOC has a chance in melee due to Fleshbane but that initial shooting face has a good chance to be gruesome, and Wraiths with Beamers need two six's or one six and a bit of luck.

Or just mass Warriors and Ghost Arks.

For Necrons the Canoptek harvest would be fine, just make sure the scarabs get into combat with the knight and then just tarpit it.

Opponent will most likely just focus on the wraiths.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sisters : change army; change game; change company editing the game just to be sure.

Under the current Codex? Toss the Exorcists at it and pray they don't die before it's dead.

(That or get Dominions up in its face with meltaguns and pray they don't die before it's dead)

Mostly this.

3 Exos and 3 Doms. 10.5 Exo shots, 12 Dom shots. 15 Hits. 7.5 Wounds. 5 After FNP. I assume you can throw something else to get that last wound (are they six now?)

oz of the north wrote:
For Necrons the Canoptek harvest would be fine, just make sure the scarabs get into combat with the knight and then just tarpit it.

Opponent will most likely just focus on the wraiths.

Stomp, plus isn't it Jump?
It'll just blast the Spyder on the way in.
I mean with their Invul saves they're resilient enough, by why bother with the Scarbas or Spyder if the D-weapon ignores reanimation anyway? Just put in more wraiths with more beamers - depending on how much of the rest of his army you expect to focus on your guys.

 pretre wrote:
Mostly this.

3 Exos and 3 Doms. 10.5 Exo shots, 12 Dom shots. 15 Hits. 7.5 Wounds. 5 After FNP. I assume you can throw something else to get that last wound (are they six now?)

So use everything in the army to kill one model. Seems about right. Especially given how the 3 dominions are least are not going to be shooting first turn, and likely will die after the turn they shoot.

Best counter to a wraithknight is a wraithknight. That's how Eldar do it, anyways.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Lol not quite, remember it has uses against other MC too.

Sooo, Tyranids? Oh wait they fly. Psilencers are PoS, quit trying to make them good.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It will be fairly easy to list most counters, as the number of them dropped dramatically,
(I am considering the WK to come with ranged D weapons, as that is the best loadout.
...snip...
Tau: lots of fusion or missilesides + buffmander with MC hunter. Lots of firewarriors + ethereal can hurt it.
...snip...
I've probably missed a few things and some of the more obscure FW choices.

It takes 324 Pulse shots to kill a wraithknight. Even if these were Pulse Rifle shots at 1/2 range with an ethereal, that's 108 fire warriors shooting. That is assuming no markerlights used to increase BS. If, somehow, you had enough markerlights to make every pulse shot fire at BS5, it drops to 195 shots, which at triple tap range is 65 fire warriors (6 squads, needs 12 marker lights and 1/2 range for all 65 fire warriors). Still not an 'answer'.

Fusion suits are the cheapest way to get fusion in range to range without losing them to the rest of the army. It's 156 pts for 3 xv8 suits with fusion. They will cause the following damage
BS3, WK in 4+ cover : 0.5 wounds.
BS3, WK in open : 1 wound.
BS5, WK in 4+ cover : 0.833 wounds.
BS5, WK in open (or ML/d to no cover) : 1.667 wounds.
And, the most likely scenario, BS5, WK has 5++ (because ranged D is banned): 1.111 wounds.
Fusion drop suits are not the answer, as it will take more than 3 squads to down the WK, and they will cost more than double the WK price.

Missile/railsides with buffmander is arguably the best choice to hurt it.
BS3 Missilesides (BS2 Missile Drones) with MH and Twin Linked : 1.934 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.611 from SMS, total of 2.545 wounds.
BS5 Missilesides (BS5 Missile Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 2.811 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.792 from the SMS, total of 3.603 wounds.
BS5 Railsides (BS5 Marker Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 1.44w from drones, 0.792 wounds from SMS, and 1.458w from Heavy Rails. Total of 3.690 wounds
This unit costs 417 pts and needs to fire multiple times in order to attempt to kill the WK. Ideally this unit will have 2-3 marker lights for increased BS, which against a competent player wont happen. The Eldar should be able to easily deny marker lights from the Tau player, so there shouldn't be any ML's left after turn 1.

The Y'Varha is even worse against the WK, as its guns are 12" or less, meaning it will get punched to death in melee by the WK easily. The 2 shot flamer it has is only str 6, so is hoping for 6's, and the main gun is S8 AP3 3 shot (unless nova charge, then +1D3 more shots). 5 shots of S8 AP3 against a WK (BS4 model base, so unlikely to get marker lights to use) is 1.111 wounds. And costs just about as much as a WK.
The R'Varna is still bad. If it gets 2 hits with its guns, thats 6 S8 AP4 hits, which the WK will shrug off and only take 0.667 wounds.

There really are not good answers for a WK from the Tau side, and there have never really been any the entire time. Tau don't get the easy wound grav option, and plasma isn't an answer as it's only str 6.

The last idea I can think of is a fully buffed Farsight Ball (Shadowsun, Farsight, 6 Suits with dual Fusion and Raven Bodyguard, 14 Gun Drones). This unit is designed to not need marker lights, but it needs them against the WK.
The 6 fusion suits (BS3, TL, MH) do 4.5 wounds. Shadowsun does 0.972 wounds. Farsight does 0.396 wounds. The 14 (BS3, because raven suit) gun drones do 1.426 wounds. Totalled to 7.294 wounds. This unit costs 792 points. 2.69 times the cost of the WK for the Tau player to kill it in a reasonable manner. This unit, however, must start in reserve to get range, and it is totally possible for the eldar player to bubble wrap with bikes or other units to mitigate the potential of this unit.

 Quickjager wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Lol not quite, remember it has uses against other MC too.

Sooo, Tyranids? Oh wait they fly. Psilencers are PoS, quit trying to make them good.

Indeed.

I have no issue killing MCs with my melee force weapons and just psycannons. Why would I take a weapon that is basically useless outside of very corner-case scenarios?

Psilincers having force is cute, but they're still lacking something to make them actually useful.

For any forces of the Imperium, the best bet against Eldar is taking the infamous Drigo - Grav Cent - Tiggy Star. That is the only thing we have can down a Wriath Knight in 1turn and cost less than 800pts....

 Ferros wrote:
No counter for Necron, wat?

Wraiths w/ beamers
Vault (<--- Hits harder, hits further, hits bigger, can be repaired, natural iWND on top)
Burning One Enclave
Pylon

Given, 2/4 are pretty much Apoc-level (But hey, Wraithknight.) but the other two work pretty well. BOC has a chance in melee due to Fleshbane but that initial shooting face has a good chance to be gruesome, and Wraiths with Beamers need two six's or one six and a bit of luck.

Or just mass Warriors and Ghost Arks.

To add on with necron counters for the WK. Full unit of Deathmarks and a D.lord on average kills it and has a chance to make it blind if the D.lord has the solar staff

niv-mizzet wrote:
BA: I need Mephiston with a good quickening, force, and sanguine sword all turned on. And of course he has to reach the thing in melee somehow. Stars aligned moment.

Grav bikers can do a bit of damage, but i have like 2 in my collection, because I don't really like the "marines on bikes" aesthetic.

Can't think of much else that wouldn't just get stomped in melee, fnp negated with a low rate of fire, etc. I don't own any sicarans, but happily accept donations!

Death company can handle a wraithknight. Striking at the same initiative with a ton of attacks. Yeah, wounding on 6s sucks, but gets better with Astorath in the equasion. A couple of power fists should finish the job, though you risk losing the unit to an unlucky stomp.

10 death co with 2 power fist will deal about 3-4 unsaved wounds to a wraithknight on the charge. Assuming you shot at it even a little with melta guns, grav bikes, stormravens, or predators, itll bring him down.

DC has to live through all the scatter laser fire, though.

^Careful though, if your opponent has any suspicion that this list will be present it wouldn't take much for him to switch out some bikes or other units for more WC-producing units. All he needs is one denied invisibility to wreck you that unit's viability.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It will be fairly easy to list most counters, as the number of them dropped dramatically,
(I am considering the WK to come with ranged D weapons, as that is the best loadout.
...snip...
Tau: lots of fusion or missilesides + buffmander with MC hunter. Lots of firewarriors + ethereal can hurt it.
...snip...
I've probably missed a few things and some of the more obscure FW choices.

It takes 324 Pulse shots to kill a wraithknight.

I agree pulse rifles are certainly not a counter, but they can add a few wounds.

I also agree that tau are lacking a truly efficient option.

 Quickjager wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Lol not quite, remember it has uses against other MC too.

Sooo, Tyranids? Oh wait they fly. Psilencers are PoS, quit trying to make them good.

Jeez man, I'm just saying that they're not completely useless, I know they're bad.

Relapse wrote:
Green tide could be ugly now that the Serpent Shield is one use only with a far more limited range. The thing you want to keep in mind is opening a hole for it through the possible wall of jet bikes.

Bu they will just get stomped by the Wraithknight. Any unit with Stomp will crush the Greentide mercilessly because of I1 Powa Klaws.

So only the IoM, Eldar and Necrons have answers to the Wraithknight... Great

Other Eldar (with no knight):
Warp spiders; wound him on a 3 (S6 against I5) hit on 2s with an aspect host and ignores armour on a 6. Also they are faster than him so can avoid CC and the D canons can only kill 2 spiders a turn. You would need just under 18 spiders to kill it in one turn on average.

Thats about it for hard counters - wraithguard have the fire power but not the range without a WWP

Scatter bikes can catch it but you would need 40 bring it down in one turn and bringing 40 scatter bikes is a lot worse than bringing 1 wraithknight!

As others have mentioned farseers with mind war or psychic shriek also work and on a bike he is fast enough.

Regarding Tau, someone in ATT reminded us that a full school of Piranhas with Seeker Missiles cost sless than the WK and could give it quite the kick in the guts. You'll need only 2 markerlights. Sadly, they won't kill it in one volley, though.

2 Skyrays at BS5 will deal 5 uW on it (3.33 if with 5++) and cost less than it.

Deathmarks for necrons, It's their job.
10 deepstriking will do 5 wounds before FNP. 180 points to remove more than half it's wounds is pretty good, then they either put on another 2 wounds next turn, or find a better target.

If they get gunned down, they are surprisingly resilient. WK at range will kill 2. then there are still 8 3+/4+++ wounds to get through. It would take ~20 scatbikes to finish them, or 540 points worth, to remove a little under 180 points.

Also, honorable mention, Doom scythes, at least 1 wound from each.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Mostly this.

3 Exos and 3 Doms. 10.5 Exo shots, 12 Dom shots. 15 Hits. 7.5 Wounds. 5 After FNP. I assume you can throw something else to get that last wound (are they six now?)

So use everything in the army to kill one model. Seems about right. Especially given how the 3 dominions are least are not going to be shooting first turn, and likely will die after the turn they shoot.

Why wouldn't they shoot first turn? And I run my Doms in Repressors, so they live through turn 1. But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

harkequin wrote:
Deathmarks for necrons, It's their job.
10 deepstriking will do 5 wounds before FNP. 180 points to remove more than half it's wounds is pretty good, then they either put on another 2 wounds next turn, or find a better target.

Except when you do account for FNP then they only do about 3 wounds and this is all assuming you succesfully deep strike next to the WK so that they all get rapid fire.

Absolutely, but 1 unit removing half of a wraithknight is pretty good. It's a lot easier for your army to remove 3 wounds than 6.

Then they still have 10 deathmarks in backfield to deal with.

Deepstriking them in 12" isnt that bad, they have a surprisingly small footprint.

Also, that 5 wounds pre FNP turns into 6 when a D-lord comes with.
Taking 2 wounds from a 3+ gmc shouldn't be that hard. Destroyers/Hdestroyers/Doomscythes etc. can do that easily.

Dark Eldar and Harlequins can perfect deepstrike with a Shadowseer and an Archon with 5 Players and a Deathjester. With Neuro Pistols, Armor of Misery and Mask of the Laughing God these do an average of 6 wounds to a Wraithknight without an invuln save (Psy Shriek + Neuro Pistols + Blast Pistols + Raider Lance) or 4 to one with an invuln save.

If you have rolled another Shriek variant on the Harlequin table you will, on average, kill the Wraith Knight with the shadowseer alone, with or without an invuln. (The Armour of Misery plus Mask give a -4 leadership penalty)

That unit costs 435 points, but it can one shot a wraithknight and is still very useful against other units. Having this land and kill the wraithknight then all you need to do is cause leadership tests on the inevitable nearby scatterbikes with the rest of your army, as with leadership 4 they are very likely to simply run away.

If you add extra pistols (and players) at 25 points each you push your wounds up further (the pistols are Fleshbane AP2)

yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
For any forces of the Imperium, the best bet against Eldar is taking the infamous Drigo - Grav Cent - Tiggy Star. That is the only thing we have can down a Wriath Knight in 1turn and cost less than 800pts....

That'll last for as long as codex: SM is unchanged... Which might be pretty soon.

All I can pray for is:

Grav cents largely unchanged
Tiggy not nerfed to the ground
Drops pods as generic FA (very likely, my purifiers will like this...)

 pretre wrote:
Why wouldn't they shoot first turn?

Out of range or in reserve for flank attack.

 pretre wrote:
But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

Using your whole 1500 points army to deal with one model at how many points exactly?

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Arent DreadKnights in the GK codex? If one of those gets to the WK, WK is dead (assuming wraithcannon WK).

I have actually play tested this. 1v1 DK w/ sword, teleported & psycannon vs WK. Over 3 matches, the DK only died once because the WK got a lucky 6 while shooting. In the other 2 games the DK got into CC on turn 2 (turn 1 shunt into 1" of the WK means the WK is NOT getting away). The Psycannon reliably did 1-2 wound to the WK in each match, doing 4 wound in one of the games. The DK lost half its wounds before getting to strike, but once it hit, killed the WK in both games with Force.

DK needs 3s to hit, 2s to wound and the WK takes D3 wounds for each and does not get FNP. DK is almost 100pts cheaper than the WK. Most "competitive" GK list will (or should) have 2 DKs

GodDamUser wrote:
With Nids just tarp it them with endless swarm..

Um..... Stomp?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Why wouldn't they shoot first turn?

Out of range or in reserve for flank attack.

 pretre wrote:
But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

Using your whole 1500 points army to deal with one model at how many points exactly?

I didn't say it was a good choice, just that it was an option.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It will be fairly easy to list most counters, as the number of them dropped dramatically,
(I am considering the WK to come with ranged D weapons, as that is the best loadout.
...snip...
Tau: lots of fusion or missilesides + buffmander with MC hunter. Lots of firewarriors + ethereal can hurt it.
...snip...
I've probably missed a few things and some of the more obscure FW choices.

It takes 324 Pulse shots to kill a wraithknight. Even if these were Pulse Rifle shots at 1/2 range with an ethereal, that's 108 fire warriors shooting. That is assuming no markerlights used to increase BS. If, somehow, you had enough markerlights to make every pulse shot fire at BS5, it drops to 195 shots, which at triple tap range is 65 fire warriors (6 squads, needs 12 marker lights and 1/2 range for all 65 fire warriors). Still not an 'answer'.

Fusion suits are the cheapest way to get fusion in range to range without losing them to the rest of the army. It's 156 pts for 3 xv8 suits with fusion. They will cause the following damage
BS3, WK in 4+ cover : 0.5 wounds.
BS3, WK in open : 1 wound.
BS5, WK in 4+ cover : 0.833 wounds.
BS5, WK in open (or ML/d to no cover) : 1.667 wounds.
And, the most likely scenario, BS5, WK has 5++ (because ranged D is banned): 1.111 wounds.
Fusion drop suits are not the answer, as it will take more than 3 squads to down the WK, and they will cost more than double the WK price.

Missile/railsides with buffmander is arguably the best choice to hurt it.
BS3 Missilesides (BS2 Missile Drones) with MH and Twin Linked : 1.934 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.611 from SMS, total of 2.545 wounds.
BS5 Missilesides (BS5 Missile Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 2.811 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.792 from the SMS, total of 3.603 wounds.
BS5 Railsides (BS5 Marker Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 1.44w from drones, 0.792 wounds from SMS, and 1.458w from Heavy Rails. Total of 3.690 wounds
This unit costs 417 pts and needs to fire multiple times in order to attempt to kill the WK. Ideally this unit will have 2-3 marker lights for increased BS, which against a competent player wont happen. The Eldar should be able to easily deny marker lights from the Tau player, so there shouldn't be any ML's left after turn 1.

The Y'Varha is even worse against the WK, as its guns are 12" or less, meaning it will get punched to death in melee by the WK easily. The 2 shot flamer it has is only str 6, so is hoping for 6's, and the main gun is S8 AP3 3 shot (unless nova charge, then +1D3 more shots). 5 shots of S8 AP3 against a WK (BS4 model base, so unlikely to get marker lights to use) is 1.111 wounds. And costs just about as much as a WK.
The R'Varna is still bad. If it gets 2 hits with its guns, thats 6 S8 AP4 hits, which the WK will shrug off and only take 0.667 wounds.

There really are not good answers for a WK from the Tau side, and there have never really been any the entire time. Tau don't get the easy wound grav option, and plasma isn't an answer as it's only str 6.

The last idea I can think of is a fully buffed Farsight Ball (Shadowsun, Farsight, 6 Suits with dual Fusion and Raven Bodyguard, 14 Gun Drones). This unit is designed to not need marker lights, but it needs them against the WK.
The 6 fusion suits (BS3, TL, MH) do 4.5 wounds. Shadowsun does 0.972 wounds. Farsight does 0.396 wounds. The 14 (BS3, because raven suit) gun drones do 1.426 wounds. Totalled to 7.294 wounds. This unit costs 792 points. 2.69 times the cost of the WK for the Tau player to kill it in a reasonable manner. This unit, however, must start in reserve to get range, and it is totally possible for the eldar player to bubble wrap with bikes or other units to mitigate the potential of this unit.

Only option is Sky Rays. 3 sky rays (345 points) can shoot 18 seeker missiles turn one (shot normally, not "seeker" rule). Most likely they will be shot at BS5 with network marker lights. that is 15 hits, 7/8 wounds. Yes they will be out of missiles, but can still fly around markering things and using SMS

 pretre wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Mostly this.

3 Exos and 3 Doms. 10.5 Exo shots, 12 Dom shots. 15 Hits. 7.5 Wounds. 5 After FNP. I assume you can throw something else to get that last wound (are they six now?)

So use everything in the army to kill one model. Seems about right. Especially given how the 3 dominions are least are not going to be shooting first turn, and likely will die after the turn they shoot.

Why wouldn't they shoot first turn? And I run my Doms in Repressors, so they live through turn 1. But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

So, if you have to use half your army to take out one unit, I think we can say there is a disparity of power levels and not a small one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Why wouldn't they shoot first turn?

Out of range or in reserve for flank attack.

 pretre wrote:
But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

Using your whole 1500 points army to deal with one model at how many points exactly?

I didn't say it was a good choice, just that it was an option.

I wouldn't call that an option at all.

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Six Grey Knights Interceptors with hammers should do the job. S8 attacks with force. Fast enough to catch the WK and hit hard enough to wound it. Then force to insta-kill it.

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, if you have to use half your army to take out one unit, I think we can say there is a disparity of power levels and not a small one.

Half of your army? We are talking all the 3 possible FA and the 3 possible HS slots, and even then spamming the best unit on each slot. FA and HS being the only good slots in the codex beside the conclave. And even then, it is with counting on the rest of the army to remove the remaining health point. That is more like using your whole army!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, if you have to use half your army to take out one unit, I think we can say there is a disparity of power levels and not a small one.

Half of your army? We are talking all the 3 possible FA and the 3 possible HS slots, and even then spamming the best unit on each slot. FA and HS being the only good slots in the codex beside the conclave. And even then, it is with counting on the rest of the army to remove the remaining health point. That is more like using your whole army!

Very true, good sir.
Using most and the best part of one's army to counter a single unit is not a viable strategy. Especially when the rest of the army has the potential to be even scarier.
T3 sisters won't really last long against scatterbikes. Or D weapons...or all those psychic powers flying around that SOB don't have.

I lol'd with the 'beside the conclave' part. Do people still field those?

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Six Grey Knights Interceptors with hammers should do the job. S8 attacks with force. Fast enough to catch the WK and hit hard enough to wound it. Then force to insta-kill it.

First, you cannot insta-kill a gargantuan creature. You will instead do 2 wounds on average (D3) per "instal-kill". Wraith knight attacks first and kills on average will kill 2 interceptors first. That leaves 4 left to attack. 8 attacks on charge, 4 hits, 2 D3 wounds = ~4 wounds. This is of course assuming you get off force which Eldar will have a good chance of stopping.

Second, how do you plan on catching it? Heavy Wraith cannons have 36 in range and it moves 12 inches and will auto run 6 inches even if firing if in the wraith host formation/craftworld war host detachment.

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

notredameguy10 wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Six Grey Knights Interceptors with hammers should do the job. S8 attacks with force. Fast enough to catch the WK and hit hard enough to wound it. Then force to insta-kill it.

First, you cannot insta-kill a gargantuan creature. You will instead do 2 wounds on average (D3) per "instal-kill". Wraith knight attacks first and kills on average will kill 2 interceptors first. That leaves 4 left to attack. 8 attacks on charge, 4 hits, 2 D3 wounds = ~4 wounds. This is of course assuming you get off force which Eldar will have a good chance of stopping.

Second, how do you plan on catching it? Heavy Wraith cannons have 36 in range and it moves 12 inches and will auto run 6 inches even if firing if in the wraith host formation/craftworld war host detachment.

Half the people talking in this thread don't even know the units...

I mean I agree with you, thats literally 200 point unit that is dead-on-arrival.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Regarding Tau, someone in ATT reminded us that a full school of Piranhas with Seeker Missiles cost sless than the WK and could give it quite the kick in the guts. You'll need only 2 markerlights. Sadly, they won't kill it in one volley, though.

2 Skyrays at BS5 will deal 5 uW on it (3.33 if with 5++) and cost less than it.

I'm bringing fliers in my upcoming game. Barracuda + 2 Remoras. Hopefully I will put a few wounds on it first round with Skyrays, missilesides, etc and get good reserve rolls.

 Quickjager wrote:


Half the people talking in this thread don't even know the units...

I mean I agree with you, thats literally 200 point unit that is dead-on-arrival.

Agreed, I did not know the Wraith Knight was now a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature.

wtnind wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

however, I did just think of this. Grey knights ... storm raven. A storm raven and put a very heavy amount of high str low ap concussive dakka on a wraithknight. Soften it up for the charge of the interceptors/dreadknight.

whats nice, is once the first round of shooting from the stormraven is complete it can just go dakka mode and pick on smaller targets. I think most grey knights forget how useful concussive is to us and we have 4 missiles on a stormraven.

wtnind wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

You can also squeeze out nine S10 AP1 large blasts (between 24" and 48") a turn for a mere 675 points with the CSM Cyclotrathe Conversion Beamer Rapier Batteries. I mean, it might hurt something before they get wiped out...

 Smotejob wrote:

wtnind wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

however, I did just think of this. Grey knights ... storm raven. A storm raven and put a very heavy amount of high str low ap concussive dakka on a wraithknight. Soften it up for the charge of the interceptors/dreadknight.

whats nice, is once the first round of shooting from the stormraven is complete it can just go dakka mode and pick on smaller targets. I think most grey knights forget how useful concussive is to us and we have 4 missiles on a stormraven.

With 4 storm strike missiles, you will be lucky to do one wound. 2.67 hits, 1.33 wounds, 33% cover (most likely) = 0.88 wounds 33% feel no pain = 0.6 wounds.

10 Possessed in the Blood Host or whatever it's called with Furious Charge active and the AP3 claws will statistically kill a Wraithknight on the charge, actually, I think.

Do its Stomps hit at I1?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other mutations bring the WK down by about half.

Alcibiades wrote:
10 Possessed in the Blood Host or whatever it's called with Furious Charge active and the AP3 claws will statistically kill a Wraithknight on the charge, actually, I think.Automatically Appended Next Post:

The other mutations bring the WK down by about half.

I think maybe your maths is off.

Khorne Possessed have 4 attacks each on the charge
= 40 attacks
= 20 hits
= 6+ to wound (S5 or even S6 against T8 is 6 to wound regardless of Furious charge) = 3 wounds at AP 3 (possessed either reroll to wound or get AP3 not both)
= 2 wounds after FnP (gargantuan)

Its been a while since I played, but I ran the Iyanden list forever with a pair of the pre Gargantuan WKs. Most of what worked then still works now. It depends most on what version of WK is being run.

Shield Version-
Never played this one myself, but have seen it run from the other side. It is not as dangerous at range to harder targets, so you can pummel it at range for another turn or two. Massed fire, especially of the S7+ variety, brings it down pretty reliably, but you are forced to ignore many other likely threats. Now that Serpent guns are one use only, this is less of a concern, since just about every other target in the elder army is killable by mass bolter fire. Guard against the gun with decent deployment, hose it down, and let bolters carry the load elsewhere.

Double D version-
This is the one I always took. For armies that have them, reserving and then bringing on Exorcists, Storm Ravens, and any sort of grav gun unit will do a number on these guys, particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover. Plasma is too hard to spam to get decent mileage out of it, so your better off using it elsewhere.

Army By Army-
SMs of all Flavors- Grav Guns, Hamminators, and Storm Ravens
Orks- Lootas who are the bane of all Eldar.
IG and varients- Infantry Blobs, Vendettas, and massed autocannons
Daemons- Kinda dorked without allies, but mass fire.
Dark Eldar- Lost poison, but diverse lance spam still gets the job done
Tau- Basic infantry can do the job, if needed. Missile Broadsides with shield drones and MLs make fast work of them, too. Probably need allies for Psychic defense here.
Necrons- Take your pick, but Wraith Spam and massed gaus are going to work just fine.
Nids- No easy option, but some things that can work ugly.

Really though, it comes down to target priority. Sometimes you just have to ignore then thing and focus on the rest of the army. I think Orks have the roughest deal, because their best solution to all Eldar problems can be surgically removed by a good Eldar player. Well, Nids are worse off, but unless they are stuffing their entire army with big stuff, they can just ignore it and move on to the rest of the army.

For me, the biggest problem with the WK is that it is the Jaws of the World Wolf of this edition. Specifically, the mere presence of long range D weapons like this make taking any kind of MC or dread without a ludicrous invulnerable save or flight a huge gamble. I much preferred the old 3rd ed D-Cannon Rule of "Wounds on 2+, Remove from Play on a 6" which still punished death stars but left larger models viable.

Considering the WK gets no inv because that's not D and no cover because why bother with terrain when playing against skilldar, here's what it costs to kill the thing in a turn for Armies of the Imperium :

24 IG Heavy Weapons Teams with Lascannons to kill it in one turn. You get 18 for ~700 points since you have to take non-lascannon models too, so the minimum for 24 Lascannons is ~1000 points. One of the lascannon squads should get monster hunter from platoon command, which makes it a bit more effective.

24 Lascannon Scout Sentinels costs only 70 points more, and if you're having them as single units, they're much more difficult to kill than the crappy HW teams.

6 Devastator Squads can output 15 Lascannon hits (with the signum helping, IIRC), that's something like ~900 points.

In Vendettas, killing the thing is over 1000 points.

It's possible to oneshot it with a Shadowsword, if you're super lucky, and it's like 150% of the WK cost, and much more easily gets killed by it than the other way around.

I have no idea what Grav anything costs or how many shots do they output. I'm guessing Grav cents in drops are more cost effective against WK's than anything Lascannon?

 Galef wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Arent DreadKnights in the GK codex? If one of those gets to the WK, WK is dead (assuming wraithcannon WK).

I have actually play tested this. 1v1 DK w/ sword, teleported & psycannon vs WK. Over 3 matches, the DK only died once because the WK got a lucky 6 while shooting. In the other 2 games the DK got into CC on turn 2 (turn 1 shunt into 1" of the WK means the WK is NOT getting away). The Psycannon reliably did 1-2 wound to the WK in each match, doing 4 wound in one of the games. The DK lost half its wounds before getting to strike, but once it hit, killed the WK in both games with Force.

DK needs 3s to hit, 2s to wound and the WK takes D3 wounds for each and does not get FNP. DK is almost 100pts cheaper than the WK. Most "competitive" GK list will (or should) have 2 DKs

I dont know man, that seems a bit happy case. I think its a little bleaker than that.

Shunt to WK turn 1, shoot it with psycannon doing a wound or two. Then WK shoots with 2 dcannons doing 1d3 wounds each, hitting on 3's, with a DK's 4+ (with psykic power) is still roughly 40% chance of 1d3 wounds on the DK (ignoring a 1 result and 6 result on the d table). Then the WK does not charge because he doesnt want to get butchered by S10 ID sword. So next round you shoot him more and do a couple more wounds and then one of two things happen. (It would be best for option 3, charge WK with at least 3 demon hammers but lets stick with just a solo DK vs a solo WK)

1) DK does not charge WK (in which case the above repeats and the DK is likely to lose. or

2) DK charges WK (no overwatch for GMC, if DK has less than 4 wounds remaining this is super risky cause WK can still kill it before it gets to attack but if DK lives and WK is down to 4 or less wounds then the DK is likely to win.

This whole scenario is best case for the DK as it would need the +1 invuln power every turn and the Force power for the turn it assaults. Note that if the Force power is stopped, then I'd charge the DK with the WK as the WK will win without the DK ID'ing it.

Personally, if you jumped your DK towards my WK, I'd wound the DK 2-ish times withwith shuriCannons then charge the WK in, force or not, but thats just me.

Disclaimer: I am an eldar and Dark Angel player with 2 WK's that I rarely run (I have zero other wraith stuff though, so maybe I'm wierd) defending the fact that a DK isnt likely to kill a WK in most scenarios.

There is another option for IG : the Beast Hunter Shell, from IA Volume1 2nd Ed.

It is a +15pts upgrade for Leman Russes Vanquisher taken as HQ / Elites on the Armoured battlegroup army list. It comes with 72'' S8 A2 Instadeath, blast. Command tanks in your HQ slot and Commissar tanks in your Elite slot (both can"t squadroned) can have BHS.

The pros :
- You wound a WK on a 4+, no armor save, and -1D3 W on GC. You also can one-shot a Wraithlord as it is simply a Monstrous Creature. With some psyker support and BS4, you have good chances to hit even though it's only a 3'' blast.
- This is certainly a good weapon, some will say OP. But regarding the current GW move towards Lords of War and unbalanced stuff, you can defend yourself for using it. Eldar can have quite OP units, why not IG?

The cons (infortunately, there are many):
- Forgeworld is still Forgeworld and will always be subject to fierce debate regarding its legality on the TT: This is coming from a 6th Ed book which not every player knows and which rules are aging.
- Balance issue : Because of its cheap cost and its sheer power, you'll certainly be yelled at for using it. No one will likes to see one's masterpiece dying suddenly on the battlefield because of an obcure weapon. Which is not even on the 7th IG Codex.
- These tanks are not cheap; a naked CC Tank with shells is 175. You will need more to reliably take down a WK.
- 3'' blasts.
- If you want more than two LR Vanquisher kitted with BHS, you have to go Unbound or play Armoured BG as primary detachment, which is not recommended.


My thoughts : just like powerful weapons, BHS can be funny to field if you agree with your opponent and don"t spam them. I feel like IG is not favoured by GW, so why not using FW rules, who are Imperial Tanks enthusiasts?
What do you think?

 Phazael wrote:
Its been a while since I played, but I ran the Iyanden list forever with a pair of the pre Gargantuan WKs. Most of what worked then still works now. It depends most on what version of WK is being run.

Shield Version-
Never played this one myself, but have seen it run from the other side. It is not as dangerous at range to harder targets, so you can pummel it at range for another turn or two. Massed fire, especially of the S7+ variety, brings it down pretty reliably, but you are forced to ignore many other likely threats. Now that Serpent guns are one use only, this is less of a concern, since just about every other target in the elder army is killable by mass bolter fire. Guard against the gun with decent deployment, hose it down, and let bolters carry the load elsewhere.

Double D version-
This is the one I always took. For armies that have them, reserving and then bringing on Exorcists, Storm Ravens, and any sort of grav gun unit will do a number on these guys, particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover. Plasma is too hard to spam to get decent mileage out of it, so your better off using it elsewhere.

Army By Army-
SMs of all Flavors- Grav Guns, Hamminators, and Storm Ravens
Orks- Lootas who are the bane of all Eldar.
IG and varients- Infantry Blobs, Vendettas, and massed autocannons
Daemons- Kinda dorked without allies, but mass fire.
Dark Eldar- Lost poison, but diverse lance spam still gets the job done
Tau- Basic infantry can do the job, if needed. Missile Broadsides with shield drones and MLs make fast work of them, too. Probably need allies for Psychic defense here.
Necrons- Take your pick, but Wraith Spam and massed gaus are going to work just fine.
Nids- No easy option, but some things that can work ugly.

Really though, it comes down to target priority. Sometimes you just have to ignore then thing and focus on the rest of the army. I think Orks have the roughest deal, because their best solution to all Eldar problems can be surgically removed by a good Eldar player. Well, Nids are worse off, but unless they are stuffing their entire army with big stuff, they can just ignore it and move on to the rest of the army.

For me, the biggest problem with the WK is that it is the Jaws of the World Wolf of this edition. Specifically, the mere presence of long range D weapons like this make taking any kind of MC or dread without a ludicrous invulnerable save or flight a huge gamble. I much preferred the old 3rd ed D-Cannon Rule of "Wounds on 2+, Remove from Play on a 6" which still punished death stars but left larger models viable.

I beg to differ in regards to Tau. it takes 350 Pulse Rifle Shots to kill a Wraithknight at BS3. That is 175 Firewarriors in rapid fire range. It takes 27 broadsides to kill a wraith knight lol

Grav cannons, invisibility, perfect timing and a prayer that you go first.

effreem wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Arent DreadKnights in the GK codex? If one of those gets to the WK, WK is dead (assuming wraithcannon WK).

I have actually play tested this. 1v1 DK w/ sword, teleported & psycannon vs WK. Over 3 matches, the DK only died once because the WK got a lucky 6 while shooting. In the other 2 games the DK got into CC on turn 2 (turn 1 shunt into 1" of the WK means the WK is NOT getting away). The Psycannon reliably did 1-2 wound to the WK in each match, doing 4 wound in one of the games. The DK lost half its wounds before getting to strike, but once it hit, killed the WK in both games with Force.

DK needs 3s to hit, 2s to wound and the WK takes D3 wounds for each and does not get FNP. DK is almost 100pts cheaper than the WK. Most "competitive" GK list will (or should) have 2 DKs

I dont know man, that seems a bit happy case. I think its a little bleaker than that.

Shunt to WK turn 1, shoot it with psycannon doing a wound or two. Then WK shoots with 2 dcannons doing 1d3 wounds each, hitting on 3's, with a DK's 4+ (with psykic power) is still roughly 40% chance of 1d3 wounds on the DK (ignoring a 1 result and 6 result on the d table). Then the WK does not charge because he doesnt want to get butchered by S10 ID sword. So next round you shoot him more and do a couple more wounds and then one of two things happen. (It would be best for option 3, charge WK with at least 3 demon hammers but lets stick with just a solo DK vs a solo WK)

1) DK does not charge WK (in which case the above repeats and the DK is likely to lose. or

2) DK charges WK (no overwatch for GMC, if DK has less than 4 wounds remaining this is super risky cause WK can still kill it before it gets to attack but if DK lives and WK is down to 4 or less wounds then the DK is likely to win.

This whole scenario is best case for the DK as it would need the +1 invuln power every turn and the Force power for the turn it assaults. Note that if the Force power is stopped, then I'd charge the DK with the WK as the WK will win without the DK ID'ing it.

Personally, if you jumped your DK towards my WK, I'd wound the DK 2-ish times withwith shuriCannons then charge the WK in, force or not, but thats just me.

Disclaimer: I am an eldar and Dark Angel player with 2 WK's that I rarely run (I have zero other wraith stuff though, so maybe I'm wierd) defending the fact that a DK isnt likely to kill a WK in most scenarios.

I haven't got the time to type it right now, but what's the chances of the WK killing a DK with sword variant?

 Phazael wrote:
***snip***
particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover.
***snip***

That's actually incorrect. GMCs claim cover the same way a MC claims cover. Toe in. The WK will most likely have a 4+ ruin or 5+ forest or something similar to stand on.

Good thing that a WK cost 120euro, you won't see that much around, except for the nutjobs who like to have 6 of everything for their Apocs games...

Lets hope that GW increase the price for the WK to 300$, so we will never see them again...

That awkward moment when you hope that GW increases prices...

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
***snip***
particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover.
***snip***

That's actually incorrect. GMCs claim cover the same way a MC claims cover. Toe in. The WK will most likely have a 4+ ruin or 5+ forest or something similar to stand on.

I thought area terrain was gone.

Martel732 wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
***snip***
particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover.
***snip***

That's actually incorrect. GMCs claim cover the same way a MC claims cover. Toe in. The WK will most likely have a 4+ ruin or 5+ forest or something similar to stand on.

I thought area terrain was gone.

It is, but the Wraithknight is still small enough to get 25% from some features so it having cover isn't unrealistic. And people still play with area terrain as a house rule.

Ummm, no. There is no chance I'd play with the old area terrain rules with all the MCs in the game now. Where I play, at least MCs struggle to get 25% coverage.

Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

Drager wrote:
Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

As I stated, I thought all cover was true LOS now; no area terrain.

Send in the marshmallow men (dev cents with gravs)

Go full hog with drop pods or tigger gates or whatever flavor of imperial best bros.

If the game really does devolve innocent this, I'm making an army of Thunderwolf cavalry. No matter what you do, you're getting charged turn two. With Champions of Fenris they can all be WS5. Take units of 6, all storm shields and two power fists per unit. Fill two obligatory elite slots with Iron Priests on Thunderwolves. At last year's ACT Masters I had a unit of Thunderwolves single handedly take out an entire army (after my grey hunters were wiped out in short order). Wraithknight is dead before he gets his stomp attacks.

 Kavish wrote:
If the game really does devolve innocent this, I'm making an army of Thunderwolf cavalry. No matter what you do, you're getting charged turn two. With Champions of Fenris they can all be WS5. Take units of 6, all storm shields and two power fists per unit. Fill two obligatory elite slots with Iron Priests on Thunderwolves. At last year's ACT Masters I had a unit of Thunderwolves single handedly take out an entire army (after my grey hunters were wiped out in short order). Wraithknight is dead before he gets his stomp attacks.

Silly wolf.The scatbikes care not for your TWC. Mass S6 is the panacea. How many saves can you make? Not enough. They even cheat you out of your Storm shields. Beautiful in a way, really.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
If the game really does devolve innocent this, I'm making an army of Thunderwolf cavalry. No matter what you do, you're getting charged turn two. With Champions of Fenris they can all be WS5. Take units of 6, all storm shields and two power fists per unit. Fill two obligatory elite slots with Iron Priests on Thunderwolves. At last year's ACT Masters I had a unit of Thunderwolves single handedly take out an entire army (after my grey hunters were wiped out in short order). Wraithknight is dead before he gets his stomp attacks.

Silly wolf.The scatbikes care not for your TWC. Mass S6 is the panacea. How many saves can you make? Not enough. They even cheat you out of your Storm shields. Beautiful in a way, really.

I thought this thread was about killing Wraithknights. Scatbikes (what an appropriate name) can go to hell. If I face an army made up entirely of scatbikes and wraithknights I will swear at the guy and pack up my models. You must be an ass if you make an army like that. It's not even fluffy. You can't be Iyanden And Saim Hann at the same time. Don't give me that "they're working together" bull$#!+. Your a cheesy bastard! (Not you, the imaginary cheese king that plays this list. I'm happy with my one unit of TWC as well. If the game devolved into s#!+ like that, I would quit 40k rather than build a cheese fest army. Honestly I don't think it will. 10 boxes of jetbikes is a lot of money! And around my area at least, no one is that much of a jerk.

Martel732 wrote:

Drager wrote:
Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

As I stated, I thought all cover was true LOS now; no area terrain.

Martel, Drager is partly correct. There are two types of cover, "Models In" and "Models in Cover Behind". The former just requires any part of the model **standing on** the terrain, and does NOT require 25% cover (it specifically says so). The latter requires 25% LOS cover, unless there is a special rule to exempt it.

BRB gives ruins give cover for "models in" a 4+ save regardless of 25% cover, so toe in is correct.

Difficult terrain, however, which includes forest, gives a 5+ cover save, but uses the "Models in cover behind" rules, which requires 25% LOS cover.

I'm on the TV with my wife, so I can't look up the page number, but I'm 100% of the rule for Ruins and Difficult Terrain, and I'm 99.99% sure that forest counts as Difficult Terrain, without having special rules. For instance, Rubble is difficult terrain but gives you 5+ cover whether or not you are obscured.

I understand that this really makes no sense, so we house rule it with "common sense" and take the spirit of the rules. If it's infantry, we'll give him cover in the rubble (distinct from ruins), because it makes sense, and cover in the trees too (just like the BRB suggests). If it's a Wraithknight, it makes NO SENSE to have cover in rubble. I mean, WTF, the only thing a bunch of rocks will hide are his toes, and he's more likely to just Stomp those than anything. If it's in trees, we make jokes about whether they're tall trees or short trees, and will just give the person the cover roll, since it's unlikely that he would be 4x taller than a mature tree (so this would be the opposite of BRB).

Are we forgetting the forest in listed terrain that acts as area terrain of 5+... And ruins...

 Zagman wrote:
Are we forgetting the forest in listed terrain that acts as area terrain of 5+... And ruins...

Do you mean the terrain datasheet for Citadel Wood? That is pretty specific that the Dense Thicket Special Rule (which gives 5+ cover save regardless of 25% obscured) is only for "Models on the base of a Citadel Wood model".

If you go by RAW, regular "woods" or forest don't qualify as a "Citadel Wood model", so they are covered under Terrain Types/Difficult Terrain, p. 108. "It includes areas of rubble, woods.... Unless specifically noted otherwise, a model in cover behind difficult terrain has a 5+ cover save." Models in cover behind is defined as, "at least 25% obscured by scenery".

Ruins are specifically covered on the facing column and say that they get a 4+ regardless whether they meet 25% obscured.

Practically speaking, the "toe in" with Dense Thicket doesn't work on trees anyhow, unless you happen to base your trees like the Citadel Wood (it doesn't work with free standing trees).

covens DE

Ossefactors... Lots of them

my thoughts for my armies:

SM: a 5 drop pod assault with 3 pods of stern with combi melta/plasma. first turn, drop a pod either side of it, combat squad and all shots. might bring a WK down if not repeat with the last pod and hope to hell...

SOB: a combination of two exorcists and a squad of penitent engines. also might work.

have yet to try either of these.

So aside for FW and ally there is not much an IG can do to an eldar list,or is there a guide somewhere for it. I have been trying to find one, but no one does IG here aside of ally wyverns.

 captain bloody fists wrote:

SM: a 5 drop pod assault with 3 pods of stern with combi melta/plasma. first turn, drop a pod either side of it, combat squad and all shots. might bring a WK down if not repeat with the last pod and hope to hell...

Yikes.. that's 205 points per drop pod sternguard squad. Times 3, you've got 615 points... To take out 1 Wraithknight? Plus you have to pay for 2 more pods of something, so you'll end up near 900 points. If that's the measuring stick, just take two of the new knights with one of the long range weapons and be done with it

You're better off with Centurions -- they cost 80 points per model equipped grav cannon and grav amp; take 3-4, fish for Invisibility, and kill an annoying broken unit with another annoying broken unit. The invisible Centurions will cost more than the WK, but they are also pretty durable and still one of the best deathstars in the game.

For DA:

10 Ravenwing Black Knights with Grebade launcher (rad grenade) will deal 4.5 wounds on wraith knight on everage.
That's 420 points.

Melta Company Veteran Squad of 9 with Librarian on Drop Pod with Precience will deal 4 wounds on everage. That's 352 points.

Unit of Deathwing Knights will deal 6.6 wounds on charge on smite mode with Knight Master dealing another 0.5 wounds. And 4.4 wounds without charge. That's 235 points. Add another Knight to be shure and that become 8.3 on charge and 5.5 without for 281 points. That is my best bet.

Or add Int chaplain with MoR instead and Knights will deal 8.8 wounds on charge with chaplain adding 1.5 wounds. That's 345 points. Or with Prescience librarian 300 points.

 Talys wrote:

 captain bloody fists wrote:

SM: a 5 drop pod assault with 3 pods of stern with combi melta/plasma. first turn, drop a pod either side of it, combat squad and all shots. might bring a WK down if not repeat with the last pod and hope to hell...

Yikes.. that's 205 points per drop pod sternguard squad. Times 3, you've got 615 points... To take out 1 Wraithknight? Plus you have to pay for 2 more pods of something, so you'll end up near 900 points. If that's the measuring stick, just take two of the new knights with one of the long range weapons and be done with it

You're better off with Centurions -- they cost 80 points per model equipped grav cannon and grav amp; take 3-4, fish for Invisibility, and kill an annoying broken unit with another annoying broken unit. The invisible Centurions will cost more than the WK, but they are also pretty durable and still one of the best deathstars in the game.

Meh, i play a fluffy crimson fist list in that i spend a lot of point's in my elite's because that's where the fluff point's me. Most time's having 5 pods pay off though as i said i have yet to try it against the new eldar list's mainly because I've been using the sister's more.

 Talys wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Drager wrote:
Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

As I stated, I thought all cover was true LOS now; no area terrain.

Martel, Drager is partly correct. There are two types of cover, "Models In" and "Models in Cover Behind". The former just requires any part of the model **standing on** the terrain, and does NOT require 25% cover (it specifically says so). The latter requires 25% LOS cover, unless there is a special rule to exempt it.

BRB gives ruins give cover for "models in" a 4+ save regardless of 25% cover, so toe in is correct.

Difficult terrain, however, which includes forest, gives a 5+ cover save, but uses the "Models in cover behind" rules, which requires 25% LOS cover.

I'm on the TV with my wife, so I can't look up the page number, but I'm 100% of the rule for Ruins and Difficult Terrain, and I'm 99.99% sure that forest counts as Difficult Terrain, without having special rules. For instance, Rubble is difficult terrain but gives you 5+ cover whether or not you are obscured.

I understand that this really makes no sense, so we house rule it with "common sense" and take the spirit of the rules. If it's infantry, we'll give him cover in the rubble (distinct from ruins), because it makes sense, and cover in the trees too (just like the BRB suggests). If it's a Wraithknight, it makes NO SENSE to have cover in rubble. I mean, WTF, the only thing a bunch of rocks will hide are his toes, and he's more likely to just Stomp those than anything. If it's in trees, we make jokes about whether they're tall trees or short trees, and will just give the person the cover roll, since it's unlikely that he would be 4x taller than a mature tree (so this would be the opposite of BRB).

For Forests I was using the 'Twisted Copse' datasheet as that is the name of the GW forest terrain piece. Not got my book on me, so might have misread, but I'm pretty sure toe in is enough.