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I lol'd with the 'beside the conclave' part. Do people still field those?

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Six Grey Knights Interceptors with hammers should do the job. S8 attacks with force. Fast enough to catch the WK and hit hard enough to wound it. Then force to insta-kill it.

First, you cannot insta-kill a gargantuan creature. You will instead do 2 wounds on average (D3) per "instal-kill". Wraith knight attacks first and kills on average will kill 2 interceptors first. That leaves 4 left to attack. 8 attacks on charge, 4 hits, 2 D3 wounds = ~4 wounds. This is of course assuming you get off force which Eldar will have a good chance of stopping.

Second, how do you plan on catching it? Heavy Wraith cannons have 36 in range and it moves 12 inches and will auto run 6 inches even if firing if in the wraith host formation/craftworld war host detachment.

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

notredameguy10 wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Six Grey Knights Interceptors with hammers should do the job. S8 attacks with force. Fast enough to catch the WK and hit hard enough to wound it. Then force to insta-kill it.

First, you cannot insta-kill a gargantuan creature. You will instead do 2 wounds on average (D3) per "instal-kill". Wraith knight attacks first and kills on average will kill 2 interceptors first. That leaves 4 left to attack. 8 attacks on charge, 4 hits, 2 D3 wounds = ~4 wounds. This is of course assuming you get off force which Eldar will have a good chance of stopping.

Second, how do you plan on catching it? Heavy Wraith cannons have 36 in range and it moves 12 inches and will auto run 6 inches even if firing if in the wraith host formation/craftworld war host detachment.

Half the people talking in this thread don't even know the units...

I mean I agree with you, thats literally 200 point unit that is dead-on-arrival.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Regarding Tau, someone in ATT reminded us that a full school of Piranhas with Seeker Missiles cost sless than the WK and could give it quite the kick in the guts. You'll need only 2 markerlights. Sadly, they won't kill it in one volley, though.

2 Skyrays at BS5 will deal 5 uW on it (3.33 if with 5++) and cost less than it.

I'm bringing fliers in my upcoming game. Barracuda + 2 Remoras. Hopefully I will put a few wounds on it first round with Skyrays, missilesides, etc and get good reserve rolls.

 Quickjager wrote:


Half the people talking in this thread don't even know the units...

I mean I agree with you, thats literally 200 point unit that is dead-on-arrival.

Agreed, I did not know the Wraith Knight was now a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature.

wtnind wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

however, I did just think of this. Grey knights ... storm raven. A storm raven and put a very heavy amount of high str low ap concussive dakka on a wraithknight. Soften it up for the charge of the interceptors/dreadknight.

whats nice, is once the first round of shooting from the stormraven is complete it can just go dakka mode and pick on smaller targets. I think most grey knights forget how useful concussive is to us and we have 4 missiles on a stormraven.

wtnind wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

You can also squeeze out nine S10 AP1 large blasts (between 24" and 48") a turn for a mere 675 points with the CSM Cyclotrathe Conversion Beamer Rapier Batteries. I mean, it might hurt something before they get wiped out...

 Smotejob wrote:

wtnind wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What do CSM do?

Ah, I know! Possessed! I can get eleven Possessed for the price of a Wraithknight, should deal with it handily. Someone do the mathhammer?

Ha ha ha, have an Exalt

Chaos warhound, bring all the turbolasers and hope for 6s

however, I did just think of this. Grey knights ... storm raven. A storm raven and put a very heavy amount of high str low ap concussive dakka on a wraithknight. Soften it up for the charge of the interceptors/dreadknight.

whats nice, is once the first round of shooting from the stormraven is complete it can just go dakka mode and pick on smaller targets. I think most grey knights forget how useful concussive is to us and we have 4 missiles on a stormraven.

With 4 storm strike missiles, you will be lucky to do one wound. 2.67 hits, 1.33 wounds, 33% cover (most likely) = 0.88 wounds 33% feel no pain = 0.6 wounds.

10 Possessed in the Blood Host or whatever it's called with Furious Charge active and the AP3 claws will statistically kill a Wraithknight on the charge, actually, I think.

Do its Stomps hit at I1?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other mutations bring the WK down by about half.

Alcibiades wrote:
10 Possessed in the Blood Host or whatever it's called with Furious Charge active and the AP3 claws will statistically kill a Wraithknight on the charge, actually, I think.Automatically Appended Next Post:

The other mutations bring the WK down by about half.

I think maybe your maths is off.

Khorne Possessed have 4 attacks each on the charge
= 40 attacks
= 20 hits
= 6+ to wound (S5 or even S6 against T8 is 6 to wound regardless of Furious charge) = 3 wounds at AP 3 (possessed either reroll to wound or get AP3 not both)
= 2 wounds after FnP (gargantuan)

Its been a while since I played, but I ran the Iyanden list forever with a pair of the pre Gargantuan WKs. Most of what worked then still works now. It depends most on what version of WK is being run.

Shield Version-
Never played this one myself, but have seen it run from the other side. It is not as dangerous at range to harder targets, so you can pummel it at range for another turn or two. Massed fire, especially of the S7+ variety, brings it down pretty reliably, but you are forced to ignore many other likely threats. Now that Serpent guns are one use only, this is less of a concern, since just about every other target in the elder army is killable by mass bolter fire. Guard against the gun with decent deployment, hose it down, and let bolters carry the load elsewhere.

Double D version-
This is the one I always took. For armies that have them, reserving and then bringing on Exorcists, Storm Ravens, and any sort of grav gun unit will do a number on these guys, particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover. Plasma is too hard to spam to get decent mileage out of it, so your better off using it elsewhere.

Army By Army-
SMs of all Flavors- Grav Guns, Hamminators, and Storm Ravens
Orks- Lootas who are the bane of all Eldar.
IG and varients- Infantry Blobs, Vendettas, and massed autocannons
Daemons- Kinda dorked without allies, but mass fire.
Dark Eldar- Lost poison, but diverse lance spam still gets the job done
Tau- Basic infantry can do the job, if needed. Missile Broadsides with shield drones and MLs make fast work of them, too. Probably need allies for Psychic defense here.
Necrons- Take your pick, but Wraith Spam and massed gaus are going to work just fine.
Nids- No easy option, but some things that can work ugly.

Really though, it comes down to target priority. Sometimes you just have to ignore then thing and focus on the rest of the army. I think Orks have the roughest deal, because their best solution to all Eldar problems can be surgically removed by a good Eldar player. Well, Nids are worse off, but unless they are stuffing their entire army with big stuff, they can just ignore it and move on to the rest of the army.

For me, the biggest problem with the WK is that it is the Jaws of the World Wolf of this edition. Specifically, the mere presence of long range D weapons like this make taking any kind of MC or dread without a ludicrous invulnerable save or flight a huge gamble. I much preferred the old 3rd ed D-Cannon Rule of "Wounds on 2+, Remove from Play on a 6" which still punished death stars but left larger models viable.

Considering the WK gets no inv because that's not D and no cover because why bother with terrain when playing against skilldar, here's what it costs to kill the thing in a turn for Armies of the Imperium :

24 IG Heavy Weapons Teams with Lascannons to kill it in one turn. You get 18 for ~700 points since you have to take non-lascannon models too, so the minimum for 24 Lascannons is ~1000 points. One of the lascannon squads should get monster hunter from platoon command, which makes it a bit more effective.

24 Lascannon Scout Sentinels costs only 70 points more, and if you're having them as single units, they're much more difficult to kill than the crappy HW teams.

6 Devastator Squads can output 15 Lascannon hits (with the signum helping, IIRC), that's something like ~900 points.

In Vendettas, killing the thing is over 1000 points.

It's possible to oneshot it with a Shadowsword, if you're super lucky, and it's like 150% of the WK cost, and much more easily gets killed by it than the other way around.

I have no idea what Grav anything costs or how many shots do they output. I'm guessing Grav cents in drops are more cost effective against WK's than anything Lascannon?

 Galef wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Arent DreadKnights in the GK codex? If one of those gets to the WK, WK is dead (assuming wraithcannon WK).

I have actually play tested this. 1v1 DK w/ sword, teleported & psycannon vs WK. Over 3 matches, the DK only died once because the WK got a lucky 6 while shooting. In the other 2 games the DK got into CC on turn 2 (turn 1 shunt into 1" of the WK means the WK is NOT getting away). The Psycannon reliably did 1-2 wound to the WK in each match, doing 4 wound in one of the games. The DK lost half its wounds before getting to strike, but once it hit, killed the WK in both games with Force.

DK needs 3s to hit, 2s to wound and the WK takes D3 wounds for each and does not get FNP. DK is almost 100pts cheaper than the WK. Most "competitive" GK list will (or should) have 2 DKs

I dont know man, that seems a bit happy case. I think its a little bleaker than that.

Shunt to WK turn 1, shoot it with psycannon doing a wound or two. Then WK shoots with 2 dcannons doing 1d3 wounds each, hitting on 3's, with a DK's 4+ (with psykic power) is still roughly 40% chance of 1d3 wounds on the DK (ignoring a 1 result and 6 result on the d table). Then the WK does not charge because he doesnt want to get butchered by S10 ID sword. So next round you shoot him more and do a couple more wounds and then one of two things happen. (It would be best for option 3, charge WK with at least 3 demon hammers but lets stick with just a solo DK vs a solo WK)

1) DK does not charge WK (in which case the above repeats and the DK is likely to lose. or

2) DK charges WK (no overwatch for GMC, if DK has less than 4 wounds remaining this is super risky cause WK can still kill it before it gets to attack but if DK lives and WK is down to 4 or less wounds then the DK is likely to win.

This whole scenario is best case for the DK as it would need the +1 invuln power every turn and the Force power for the turn it assaults. Note that if the Force power is stopped, then I'd charge the DK with the WK as the WK will win without the DK ID'ing it.

Personally, if you jumped your DK towards my WK, I'd wound the DK 2-ish times withwith shuriCannons then charge the WK in, force or not, but thats just me.

Disclaimer: I am an eldar and Dark Angel player with 2 WK's that I rarely run (I have zero other wraith stuff though, so maybe I'm wierd) defending the fact that a DK isnt likely to kill a WK in most scenarios.

There is another option for IG : the Beast Hunter Shell, from IA Volume1 2nd Ed.

It is a +15pts upgrade for Leman Russes Vanquisher taken as HQ / Elites on the Armoured battlegroup army list. It comes with 72'' S8 A2 Instadeath, blast. Command tanks in your HQ slot and Commissar tanks in your Elite slot (both can"t squadroned) can have BHS.

The pros :
- You wound a WK on a 4+, no armor save, and -1D3 W on GC. You also can one-shot a Wraithlord as it is simply a Monstrous Creature. With some psyker support and BS4, you have good chances to hit even though it's only a 3'' blast.
- This is certainly a good weapon, some will say OP. But regarding the current GW move towards Lords of War and unbalanced stuff, you can defend yourself for using it. Eldar can have quite OP units, why not IG?

The cons (infortunately, there are many):
- Forgeworld is still Forgeworld and will always be subject to fierce debate regarding its legality on the TT: This is coming from a 6th Ed book which not every player knows and which rules are aging.
- Balance issue : Because of its cheap cost and its sheer power, you'll certainly be yelled at for using it. No one will likes to see one's masterpiece dying suddenly on the battlefield because of an obcure weapon. Which is not even on the 7th IG Codex.
- These tanks are not cheap; a naked CC Tank with shells is 175. You will need more to reliably take down a WK.
- 3'' blasts.
- If you want more than two LR Vanquisher kitted with BHS, you have to go Unbound or play Armoured BG as primary detachment, which is not recommended.


My thoughts : just like powerful weapons, BHS can be funny to field if you agree with your opponent and don"t spam them. I feel like IG is not favoured by GW, so why not using FW rules, who are Imperial Tanks enthusiasts?
What do you think?

 Phazael wrote:
Its been a while since I played, but I ran the Iyanden list forever with a pair of the pre Gargantuan WKs. Most of what worked then still works now. It depends most on what version of WK is being run.

Shield Version-
Never played this one myself, but have seen it run from the other side. It is not as dangerous at range to harder targets, so you can pummel it at range for another turn or two. Massed fire, especially of the S7+ variety, brings it down pretty reliably, but you are forced to ignore many other likely threats. Now that Serpent guns are one use only, this is less of a concern, since just about every other target in the elder army is killable by mass bolter fire. Guard against the gun with decent deployment, hose it down, and let bolters carry the load elsewhere.

Double D version-
This is the one I always took. For armies that have them, reserving and then bringing on Exorcists, Storm Ravens, and any sort of grav gun unit will do a number on these guys, particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover. Plasma is too hard to spam to get decent mileage out of it, so your better off using it elsewhere.

Army By Army-
SMs of all Flavors- Grav Guns, Hamminators, and Storm Ravens
Orks- Lootas who are the bane of all Eldar.
IG and varients- Infantry Blobs, Vendettas, and massed autocannons
Daemons- Kinda dorked without allies, but mass fire.
Dark Eldar- Lost poison, but diverse lance spam still gets the job done
Tau- Basic infantry can do the job, if needed. Missile Broadsides with shield drones and MLs make fast work of them, too. Probably need allies for Psychic defense here.
Necrons- Take your pick, but Wraith Spam and massed gaus are going to work just fine.
Nids- No easy option, but some things that can work ugly.

Really though, it comes down to target priority. Sometimes you just have to ignore then thing and focus on the rest of the army. I think Orks have the roughest deal, because their best solution to all Eldar problems can be surgically removed by a good Eldar player. Well, Nids are worse off, but unless they are stuffing their entire army with big stuff, they can just ignore it and move on to the rest of the army.

For me, the biggest problem with the WK is that it is the Jaws of the World Wolf of this edition. Specifically, the mere presence of long range D weapons like this make taking any kind of MC or dread without a ludicrous invulnerable save or flight a huge gamble. I much preferred the old 3rd ed D-Cannon Rule of "Wounds on 2+, Remove from Play on a 6" which still punished death stars but left larger models viable.

I beg to differ in regards to Tau. it takes 350 Pulse Rifle Shots to kill a Wraithknight at BS3. That is 175 Firewarriors in rapid fire range. It takes 27 broadsides to kill a wraith knight lol

Grav cannons, invisibility, perfect timing and a prayer that you go first.

effreem wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Arent DreadKnights in the GK codex? If one of those gets to the WK, WK is dead (assuming wraithcannon WK).

I have actually play tested this. 1v1 DK w/ sword, teleported & psycannon vs WK. Over 3 matches, the DK only died once because the WK got a lucky 6 while shooting. In the other 2 games the DK got into CC on turn 2 (turn 1 shunt into 1" of the WK means the WK is NOT getting away). The Psycannon reliably did 1-2 wound to the WK in each match, doing 4 wound in one of the games. The DK lost half its wounds before getting to strike, but once it hit, killed the WK in both games with Force.

DK needs 3s to hit, 2s to wound and the WK takes D3 wounds for each and does not get FNP. DK is almost 100pts cheaper than the WK. Most "competitive" GK list will (or should) have 2 DKs

I dont know man, that seems a bit happy case. I think its a little bleaker than that.

Shunt to WK turn 1, shoot it with psycannon doing a wound or two. Then WK shoots with 2 dcannons doing 1d3 wounds each, hitting on 3's, with a DK's 4+ (with psykic power) is still roughly 40% chance of 1d3 wounds on the DK (ignoring a 1 result and 6 result on the d table). Then the WK does not charge because he doesnt want to get butchered by S10 ID sword. So next round you shoot him more and do a couple more wounds and then one of two things happen. (It would be best for option 3, charge WK with at least 3 demon hammers but lets stick with just a solo DK vs a solo WK)

1) DK does not charge WK (in which case the above repeats and the DK is likely to lose. or

2) DK charges WK (no overwatch for GMC, if DK has less than 4 wounds remaining this is super risky cause WK can still kill it before it gets to attack but if DK lives and WK is down to 4 or less wounds then the DK is likely to win.

This whole scenario is best case for the DK as it would need the +1 invuln power every turn and the Force power for the turn it assaults. Note that if the Force power is stopped, then I'd charge the DK with the WK as the WK will win without the DK ID'ing it.

Personally, if you jumped your DK towards my WK, I'd wound the DK 2-ish times withwith shuriCannons then charge the WK in, force or not, but thats just me.

Disclaimer: I am an eldar and Dark Angel player with 2 WK's that I rarely run (I have zero other wraith stuff though, so maybe I'm wierd) defending the fact that a DK isnt likely to kill a WK in most scenarios.

I haven't got the time to type it right now, but what's the chances of the WK killing a DK with sword variant?

 Phazael wrote:
***snip***
particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover.
***snip***

That's actually incorrect. GMCs claim cover the same way a MC claims cover. Toe in. The WK will most likely have a 4+ ruin or 5+ forest or something similar to stand on.

Good thing that a WK cost 120euro, you won't see that much around, except for the nutjobs who like to have 6 of everything for their Apocs games...

Lets hope that GW increase the price for the WK to 300$, so we will never see them again...

That awkward moment when you hope that GW increases prices...

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
***snip***
particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover.
***snip***

That's actually incorrect. GMCs claim cover the same way a MC claims cover. Toe in. The WK will most likely have a 4+ ruin or 5+ forest or something similar to stand on.

I thought area terrain was gone.

Martel732 wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
***snip***
particularly since Gargantuans almost never get to claim cover.
***snip***

That's actually incorrect. GMCs claim cover the same way a MC claims cover. Toe in. The WK will most likely have a 4+ ruin or 5+ forest or something similar to stand on.

I thought area terrain was gone.

It is, but the Wraithknight is still small enough to get 25% from some features so it having cover isn't unrealistic. And people still play with area terrain as a house rule.

Ummm, no. There is no chance I'd play with the old area terrain rules with all the MCs in the game now. Where I play, at least MCs struggle to get 25% coverage.

Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

Drager wrote:
Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

As I stated, I thought all cover was true LOS now; no area terrain.

Send in the marshmallow men (dev cents with gravs)

Go full hog with drop pods or tigger gates or whatever flavor of imperial best bros.

If the game really does devolve innocent this, I'm making an army of Thunderwolf cavalry. No matter what you do, you're getting charged turn two. With Champions of Fenris they can all be WS5. Take units of 6, all storm shields and two power fists per unit. Fill two obligatory elite slots with Iron Priests on Thunderwolves. At last year's ACT Masters I had a unit of Thunderwolves single handedly take out an entire army (after my grey hunters were wiped out in short order). Wraithknight is dead before he gets his stomp attacks.

 Kavish wrote:
If the game really does devolve innocent this, I'm making an army of Thunderwolf cavalry. No matter what you do, you're getting charged turn two. With Champions of Fenris they can all be WS5. Take units of 6, all storm shields and two power fists per unit. Fill two obligatory elite slots with Iron Priests on Thunderwolves. At last year's ACT Masters I had a unit of Thunderwolves single handedly take out an entire army (after my grey hunters were wiped out in short order). Wraithknight is dead before he gets his stomp attacks.

Silly wolf.The scatbikes care not for your TWC. Mass S6 is the panacea. How many saves can you make? Not enough. They even cheat you out of your Storm shields. Beautiful in a way, really.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
If the game really does devolve innocent this, I'm making an army of Thunderwolf cavalry. No matter what you do, you're getting charged turn two. With Champions of Fenris they can all be WS5. Take units of 6, all storm shields and two power fists per unit. Fill two obligatory elite slots with Iron Priests on Thunderwolves. At last year's ACT Masters I had a unit of Thunderwolves single handedly take out an entire army (after my grey hunters were wiped out in short order). Wraithknight is dead before he gets his stomp attacks.

Silly wolf.The scatbikes care not for your TWC. Mass S6 is the panacea. How many saves can you make? Not enough. They even cheat you out of your Storm shields. Beautiful in a way, really.

I thought this thread was about killing Wraithknights. Scatbikes (what an appropriate name) can go to hell. If I face an army made up entirely of scatbikes and wraithknights I will swear at the guy and pack up my models. You must be an ass if you make an army like that. It's not even fluffy. You can't be Iyanden And Saim Hann at the same time. Don't give me that "they're working together" bull$#!+. Your a cheesy bastard! (Not you, the imaginary cheese king that plays this list. I'm happy with my one unit of TWC as well. If the game devolved into s#!+ like that, I would quit 40k rather than build a cheese fest army. Honestly I don't think it will. 10 boxes of jetbikes is a lot of money! And around my area at least, no one is that much of a jerk.

Martel732 wrote:

Drager wrote:
Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

As I stated, I thought all cover was true LOS now; no area terrain.

Martel, Drager is partly correct. There are two types of cover, "Models In" and "Models in Cover Behind". The former just requires any part of the model **standing on** the terrain, and does NOT require 25% cover (it specifically says so). The latter requires 25% LOS cover, unless there is a special rule to exempt it.

BRB gives ruins give cover for "models in" a 4+ save regardless of 25% cover, so toe in is correct.

Difficult terrain, however, which includes forest, gives a 5+ cover save, but uses the "Models in cover behind" rules, which requires 25% LOS cover.

I'm on the TV with my wife, so I can't look up the page number, but I'm 100% of the rule for Ruins and Difficult Terrain, and I'm 99.99% sure that forest counts as Difficult Terrain, without having special rules. For instance, Rubble is difficult terrain but gives you 5+ cover whether or not you are obscured.

I understand that this really makes no sense, so we house rule it with "common sense" and take the spirit of the rules. If it's infantry, we'll give him cover in the rubble (distinct from ruins), because it makes sense, and cover in the trees too (just like the BRB suggests). If it's a Wraithknight, it makes NO SENSE to have cover in rubble. I mean, WTF, the only thing a bunch of rocks will hide are his toes, and he's more likely to just Stomp those than anything. If it's in trees, we make jokes about whether they're tall trees or short trees, and will just give the person the cover roll, since it's unlikely that he would be 4x taller than a mature tree (so this would be the opposite of BRB).