I was writing for a Deathwatch campaign and the party must deal with gene stealer colt, and then must stop a nid invasion, but it came to my attention how does one do that? Is it that you kill the hive mind and all the bugs die off or what, if so where is the hive mind is it part of the hive ship, if so is it like cutting the brain of a giant organisms. Last question how do tyranids do ship to ship space combat. I didn't realize until now how ignorant I am on the exact details of nids other than their bugs that want to eat everything.

If I understand correctly...You want to either A. Kill every single last one of them (Unpractical for obvious reasons) or B. Destroy or infiltrate the hive ship(s) and kill the Norn-Queen(s), causing the remainder of the Tyranid forces to basically become wild animals. Either way, you're gonna need a lot more firepower than a single squad has.

Your planet has a local population consisting of Ultramarines.

yeah a squad of deathwatch troops won't win the battle single handedly. they'd likely be used to strike the norn queen.

Might be an idea to read the novel "defenders of Ultramar"

Even if the squad goes to assassinate the queen, they WILL need support getting there since the Tyranids aren't just going to watch a lone gunship fly up to their VIP ship and board it. There need to be either a fleet supporting them or really big guns on the ground. I think the fleet idea is a lot more reasonable, and makes sense since you know...there's a freaking Tyranid invasion going on, of course reinforcements are going to come.

First, see what the players come up with and go with it. if they want to infiltrate the hive ship, let them go with it. If they can find a plausible way of sneaking on to the hive ship then go with it, or if they want support then let them go with that, they will need to work out how to get the support thy need.

They may be a loan ship dodging and weaving past flack then fighting to the heart of the ship to make a one in a billion shot on the hive queen, or having to persuade the fleet commander that they need to make a frontal assault on the hive rather than just evacuating the planet as ordered. See what they want to do and say yes. Never say "no that won't work". This is a roleplay game, not a realistic depiction of life. The players will find a way to do something totaly unexpected no matter what you do. Don't write them a plan on how to do it and hope they find it. They may decide that actually a hive fleet is unstoppable and they just need to limit the losses.

As for ship to ship, I imagine nid will have troops specifically for that. Perhaps small flying nids that attack ships like dragons and start ripping them apart or living missiles that bore in to ships hulls and release thousands of mini nids to rip the inhabitants apart, or whale like nids that try and swallow small ships whole to dissolve them in acid. It's not a well fleshed out area so let your imagination run wild.

Exterminatus is a pretty good way of stopping the nids from getting a meal.

Take off and exterminatus the planet from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure...

They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Option 1: Exterminatus
Option 2: Have a huge fleet and army and outlast the Tyranids.
Option 3: While your huge fleet and armies keep the Tyranids distracted, send in special forces to all Tyranid capital ships to assassinate all the Norn Queens (the creatures which give birth to new Tyranids) simultaneously (that part is important). With the Norn Queens gone, the Tyranid fleet won't be able to generate new creatures anymore, thus allowing the planetside troops to finish them of.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Option 1: Exterminatus
Option 2: Have a huge fleet and army and outlast the Tyranids.
Option 3: While your huge fleet and armies keep the Tyranids distracted, send in special forces to all Tyranid capital ships to assassinate all the Norn Queens (the creatures which give birth to new Tyranids) simultaneously (that part is important). With the Norn Queens gone, the Tyranid fleet won't be able to generate new creatures anymore, thus allowing the planetside troops to finish them of.

I feel like the norn queen is more a giant hive tyrant, its a link to the hive mind more than an actual queen. They birth new bugs planetside while queens are confined to space fleets, so that would be impossible to do if the queen was the one birthing them. Killing them would be like killing a tyrant, it would result in a frenzy among the smaller bugs as they lose their connection the the Hive, but tyrants may be able to force control over them again. The hive fleets would be screwed though, they dont have a backup connection to the Hive Mind (afaik) and would rip into everything blindly.

Read the novella Catechism of Hate, Chaplain Cassius of the Ultramarines leads a company sized force against what remains of a hive fleet tendril after it gets blasted out of space onto a planet. It's very interesting to see how the Norn Queens fare outside of their ships.

The marines aren't going to take out an entire nid hive ship alone I'm not Mat Ward, they would have plenty of help from the PDF, Inquisitor, and local sisters of battle.

Burn it to ash!

On a storyline scope to be accurate to 40k fluff, the biggest problem is adaptability. The life eater virus would work one maybe 2 times before the tyranids evolved to be immune. The cyclonic torpedoes, if they could be fired accurately at something size of a hive ship could work if they figured out which ship the queen was on. But basically this is a death star type mission in that smaller scale is better. A large group (small on the space combat scale) of terminators, centurions and support squads breach a hive ship and execute the Norn queen (the campaign writes itself at that point, apart from designing what basically amounts to a dungeon crawl through the hive ship.)
But the real GM Leg work would come from getting the party there. After the party becomes aware of the issue and kills the genestealer cult, You would have to get them a source of knowledge (deathwatch repository, tyranid survivor, magos biologist who specializes in nids) to even know what to do about the hive fleet (much like you are asking the dakka community). Then convince a local chapter (Deathwatch wouldn't have enough men in the area to do it alone, and the PDF's and Inquisitors wouldn't really have access to the equipment necessary), to assist and put those elements at the players command. The players would then make their way through the halls of the hive ship using the other terminators and stuff as “allies and cohorts” (think d&d leadership feat). And probably for dramatic pacing have the cohorts die off at significant times so that the party is the last group alive when they reach the Norn queen. If there are not rules for her (which, given the little fluff on them as there is, I suspect is the case) id run her as a conjuration specialist (she summons other tyranids to fight for her, some of which may need special weapons to kill. Also if there is a librarian and they have a maguffin that overrides shadow of the warp, it shouldn’t work for at least a portion of the fight, like if she takes so much damage she can’t maintain the connection and the shadow dissipates.) all the while they have to figure out how to kill her from her protected and elevated position. It should be a pretty challenging and epic game.
I don’t mean to tell you how to GM, but this was what i though would be the way to do it.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Option 1: Exterminatus
Option 2: Have a huge fleet and army and outlast the Tyranids.
Option 3: While your huge fleet and armies keep the Tyranids distracted, send in special forces to all Tyranid capital ships to assassinate all the Norn Queens (the creatures which give birth to new Tyranids) simultaneously (that part is important). With the Norn Queens gone, the Tyranid fleet won't be able to generate new creatures anymore, thus allowing the planetside troops to finish them of.

I feel like the norn queen is more a giant hive tyrant, its a link to the hive mind more than an actual queen. They birth new bugs planetside while queens are confined to space fleets, so that would be impossible to do if the queen was the one birthing them. Killing them would be like killing a tyrant, it would result in a frenzy among the smaller bugs as they lose their connection the the Hive, but tyrants may be able to force control over them again. The hive fleets would be screwed though, they dont have a backup connection to the Hive Mind (afaik) and would rip into everything blindly.

The giant hive tyrant would be the Dominatrix, not the Norn Queen. What little fluff there is on the Norn Queens makes it clear that their only function is to give birth and lead the swarm and decide the evolutionary paths of the Tyranid subspecies. All the biomatter that the Tyranids harvest from a planet is pumped up to the Norn Queen so that they can birth more creatures.
The Tyranids do not birth planetside afaik. They are birthed aboard the Hive Ships and then sent down by way of spores.
Also, what may be of importance is that during space travel, Tyranids are in a dormant state. Only Tervigons stay awake as guards.

 chazz huggins wrote:
I was writing for a Deathwatch campaign and the party must deal with gene stealer colt, and then must stop a nid invasion, but it came to my attention how does one do that? Is it that you kill the hive mind and all the bugs die off or what, if so where is the hive mind is it part of the hive ship, if so is it like cutting the brain of a giant organisms. Last question how do tyranids do ship to ship space combat. I didn't realize until now how ignorant I am on the exact details of nids other than their bugs that want to eat everything.

2 options:

Kill off the 'nids. Destroy the splinter fleet, and they no longer pose a threat

Fight the 'nids so hard they chose to go somewhere else to harvest biomass. They aren't set into a course, they will move somewhere else if the resistance is stiff enough.

Deathwatch armed with this... lots of this...

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Option 1: Exterminatus
Option 2: Have a huge fleet and army and outlast the Tyranids.
Option 3: While your huge fleet and armies keep the Tyranids distracted, send in special forces to all Tyranid capital ships to assassinate all the Norn Queens (the creatures which give birth to new Tyranids) simultaneously (that part is important). With the Norn Queens gone, the Tyranid fleet won't be able to generate new creatures anymore, thus allowing the planetside troops to finish them of.

I feel like the norn queen is more a giant hive tyrant, its a link to the hive mind more than an actual queen. They birth new bugs planetside while queens are confined to space fleets, so that would be impossible to do if the queen was the one birthing them. Killing them would be like killing a tyrant, it would result in a frenzy among the smaller bugs as they lose their connection the the Hive, but tyrants may be able to force control over them again. The hive fleets would be screwed though, they dont have a backup connection to the Hive Mind (afaik) and would rip into everything blindly.

The giant hive tyrant would be the Dominatrix, not the Norn Queen. What little fluff there is on the Norn Queens makes it clear that their only function is to give birth and lead the swarm and decide the evolutionary paths of the Tyranid subspecies. All the biomatter that the Tyranids harvest from a planet is pumped up to the Norn Queen so that they can birth more creatures.
The Tyranids do not birth planetside afaik. They are birthed aboard the Hive Ships and then sent down by way of spores.
Also, what may be of importance is that during space travel, Tyranids are in a dormant state. Only Tervigons stay awake as guards.

I could be wrong but i thought a dominatrix was the biofrom that houses the norn queen when she is not on the hive ship. there was BL story about them.

Short of Exterminatus, you have to kill all of the Nids, and that is basically impossible,

You can drive the Hive fleet away, but some biomorphs are capable of living without the hive mind. They become basically animals and will begin subverting the native lifeforms till the hive fleet builds again.

Deploy several chapters of Astartes, Imperial Guard and other troops. Then proceed to kill every single organism with fire and other weapons

Nid ships are living organism, some unable to even land on a planet. Some are kinda like space krakens and will just latch onto an end ship and tear it to shreds with claws, tentacles, and their beak.

Eldrad gives candy to young races.
And that candy will contain a slow-spreading gingivitis virus that will fester in the new race and slowly spread amongst their entire species. The gum pain will be considered a normal part of everyday life, and they will regularly take painkillers.

When the ’Nids invade them in 3000 years, they too will be infected by the gingivitis disease – but they are mindless beasts, who know not of painkillers. Surviving in constant pain, only made worse by eating, this entire massive hive of ’Nids will simply become extinct, a result of their own adaptation abilities.

And of course, Eldrad’s craftworld would have been the next one in line from that particular hive. Just. As. Planned.

Lure a bunch of Orks into the conflict. Tyranids won't give up fighting, Orks will attract more Orks. If you establish the cycle proppa, the two matched forces will engage in eternal battle.

Proven ways:

- Completely destroy the tendril.
- infest planet with orks
- infest planet with deamons

1. Fly Strike Cruiser into heart of Hive Fleet.
2. Detonate Warp Drive, tearing open a massive hole in Reality, which sucks the Nids into the Warp, never to be seen again.
3. Be honored in legends for thousands of years... but you're certainly not surviving the event.

 Psienesis wrote:
1. Fly Strike Cruiser into heart of Hive Fleet.
2. Detonate Warp Drive, tearing open a massive hole in Reality, which sucks the Nids into the Warp, never to be seen again.
3. Be honored in legends for thousands of years... but you're certainly not surviving the event.

Why is that every marines solution to everything "lets crash our irreplaceable Cruiser into that seemingly indestructible thing" lol thats what he smurfs did.

Mainly because there isn't really any other option. There is no poison or chemical weapon that works against the Tyranids more than once. There are no Imperial weapons that can wipe out fleets that are billions of vessels in size, with the possible exception of a Nova Cannon, but the platform required to deliver such a weapon is exceedingly rare, and the Cannon itself cannot fire fast enough to survive the counter-attack, assuming it can pull off the first shot.

Fighting them on the ground is a complete waste of time, since the Tyranids begin terraforming the planet before the first bug hits the ground, converting the atmosphere into something more bug-friendly... and if the Fleet is close enough to make planet-fall, then you've basically already lost without seriously drastic measures.

About the only feasible idea I can think of is some sort of installation on the planet, such as a Chaos Relic or perhaps a device of Necron, Eldar, or some other advanced Xenos culture (perhaps even one that is now extinct) that creates some sort of wave-effect that extends across a system, which disrupts the Shadow in the Warp, fries the Synapse Creatures, or otherwise produces some little-understood effect that causes the Hive Fleet to either flee or devour itself.

A Blackstone Fortress could probably hold its own too, I've just remembered those bad boys. But do the Imperium hold any of then, or are all the remaining ones property of Abaddon?

I don't see why toxins and biological warfare can't work.

If you kill them quick enough, their individual bodies won't have time to adapt - therefore you can keep re-using them.

Prolonged contact with them leads to resistance. Rapidly kill them and they won't have time to adapt.

Tyranids share their genetic information (and traits for resistance) when they 'digest' their bodies in those biopools - they can't do this in battle so the trait cannot be shared immediately.

Also, NEW Tyranids can have the trait put into their cells, but existing ones will NOT have the trait in their cells and so will be susceptible. Its the next wave that will be immune/resistant once they hatch

I believe most people are under the mistaken assumption that Tyranids adapt immediately like the Borg in Star Trek do to phase weapons Cells don't work that way.

 Psienesis wrote:
Mainly because there isn't really any other option. There is no poison or chemical weapon that works against the Tyranids more than once. There are no Imperial weapons that can wipe out fleets that are billions of vessels in size, with the possible exception of a Nova Cannon, but the platform required to deliver such a weapon is exceedingly rare, and the Cannon itself cannot fire fast enough to survive the counter-attack, assuming it can pull off the first shot.

Fighting them on the ground is a complete waste of time, since the Tyranids begin terraforming the planet before the first bug hits the ground, converting the atmosphere into something more bug-friendly... and if the Fleet is close enough to make planet-fall, then you've basically already lost without seriously drastic measures.

About the only feasible idea I can think of is some sort of installation on the planet, such as a Chaos Relic or perhaps a device of Necron, Eldar, or some other advanced Xenos culture (perhaps even one that is now extinct) that creates some sort of wave-effect that extends across a system, which disrupts the Shadow in the Warp, fries the Synapse Creatures, or otherwise produces some little-understood effect that causes the Hive Fleet to either flee or devour itself.

You could always just use a gamma ray burst, although there won't really be any lift left in a couple star systems after it's detonated.

The Tyranids do more than just become resistant to individual weapons or toxins. They also learn and adapt their tactics, through observation. Their enemies classically keep underestimating the Tyranid race's intelligence based on the lack of intelligence in individiual low level Tyranids. However the Hive Mind is intelligent and its learning is not dependent on actually digesting either the enemy or its own individual Tyranid creatures.

For example in the novel Warriors of Ultramar, the Imperial space fleet used a tactic of detonating a refinery packed with explosives and volatile plasma. It destroyed a Tyranid hive ship and caused disruption in the fleet. When the Imperials tried to use a second refinery, not only did the Tyranids not take the bait (the other hive ship deliberately stayed well clear of the danger zone), they turned the tables on the humans by taking the refinery and towing it back to detonate it in the middle of the Imperial fleet, taking care to protect it from Imperial fire until it was well and truly in range. Only when it was where it would do the most damage to the Imperial fleet did the expendable Tyranids turn on the refinery to detonate it. The Hivemind had learned not to attempt to consume the refinery, learned how to use it against its enemies, and had innovated to develop creatures to haul and protect the refinery. All this action took place in space, and there was no consumption to pass on direct genetic information, so the learning was all through direct observation and then modification of behavior.

The Tyranids are actually the diametric opposite to the Imperium in that the Tyranids are innovating and changing constantly, whereas the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus are as a whole against innovation. That is why the Imperium struggles so much because its classic strength of brute force numbers is useless against the even more numerous Tyranids, and because what works one time against Tyranids is unlikely to yield the same results repeatedly.

You just have to sever the connection to the hive mind then clean up the rest. Nowhere near as simple as that sounded.

Regarding ship-to-ship action, these are the two most salient points from Battlefleet Gothic (GW's late lamented space combat game):

Pyro-acidic Batteries
These Tyranid weapons work by launching compact organic shells containing virulent toxins and pyro-acids. These can cause considerable damage on impact, but it is the release of their ravening payloads into the confines of a ship that can prove the most deadly. Pyro-acidic battery fire is worked out in the same way as an ordinary ship’s weapon battery. Any ship which is hit by pyro-acid weapons has a chance that they will continue to be eaten away by the deadly bio-agents. (they also have short range Carnifex style Bio-Plasma for burning through hardened targets)

Spores
Tyranid ships do not have turrets or shields in the normal sense, and instead rely on emitting a constantly replenished physical barrier of spore clouds. Every spore is a Pandora’s box of viral compounds, acids and even nucleonic mutagens capable of eating through hull armour with alarming speed. The combined effect of the millions of spores produces an ablative armour effect as they absorb weapons fire and ordnance directed at the bio-ship they surround.

As for boading a Hive Ship, Tyranids as we know them today actually first appeared that way in Advanced Space Crusade, a (rather complicated) boardgame representing the killing of a Hive Ship by a sub-company* sized boarding force. Although Norn Queens were mentioned they weren't a target, instead the objectives were the ships Energy Cortex, Sensory Cluster** and Respiratory Vent. Destroy all three and the ship dies, along with every Tyranid on board, including any norn queens.

* Maximum sized game was 30 marines if all Terminators, 90 marines if all Scouts, or somewhere between for a mixed force.

** This particular objective had a rather cool special rule that would fit well into the narrative of an RPG boarding action: "If the Space Marines capture this objective, they can tap into the energy flows around the ship and follow Tyranid movements. Techpriests of the Adeptus Mechanicus probe the Cluster and detect concentrations of energetic activity. Although the actual thought processes of the huge alien ship are completely incomprehensible to a human, it is possible to recognise certain patterns, such as those that occur when doors are opened or fluids diverted to leave a passage clear. In this way, the Space Marines can get some idea of how the Tyranids are moving around the hive ship, even though they don't know which Tyranids are where."

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Viruses don't work against Tyranids, they just adapt to them. Even Nurgle's viruses are powerless against the Tyranids.


You should hire the Dark Eldar. They are super effective vs Tyranids. Just be wary of any offers of 'cultural exchange'.

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Because it will work once. If they fail to kill every Tyranid present, survivors may be devoured by another Fleet, which then becomes immune to the Life-Eater Virus, which then passes that immunity along to other Hive Fleets. Worse? The Tyranids metabolize the Virus and turn it into one of their own weapons.

You save a world from Tyranids the same way you save them from heretics and xenos.

Nuke them from orbit.

Salvation in death.

 Psienesis wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Because it will work once. If they fail to kill every Tyranid present, survivors may be devoured by another Fleet, which then becomes immune to the Life-Eater Virus, which then passes that immunity along to other Hive Fleets. Worse? The Tyranids metabolize the Virus and turn it into one of their own weapons.

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

Call up O'vesa from the Farsight Enclave.

From what I've read (very little) It's been the only successful use of a (*Aghem*) "suite of self-replicating poisons."

Which O'vesa created and had three Earth Cast members ingest. After these three scientists were eaten and taken back to the fleet, the poisons spread and killed off the entire Hive Fleet attacking Vior'los.

It took only an hour for the entire fleet to be destroyed.
Now, I don't know if any of the Hive survived to make them immune again, but given that it was a "self Replicating" poison, I rather think it would work a few more times. The poisons would have some slight evolutionary effects, which may not outpace the Tyrnids own Evolution, but at least give it a bit of a run. Meaning this tactic should work at least more then once, but not indefinitely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: I forgot to mention, In that one hour the Hive managed to:

"Tyranids had even stripped most of Vior'los' atmosphere away"

So your planet will probably be very wrecked no matter what you did.

Send an ork waagh to fight the hive fleet a few planets away from the planet you want to save. The orks will be a problem afterwards though.
That's what the inquisition did at least.

Random thought: I thought I read somewhere that the Hive Mind is the gestalt consciousness of the Old Ones seeking revenge on the Necrons and C'Tan. Is this true? Because maybe leading the Nids to a Tomb world and letting them destroy each other could be an option.

Where the heck did you read that? There's actual examples in the fluff of Hive fleets bypassing Tomb Worlds...

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Send an ork waagh to fight the hive fleet a few planets away from the planet you want to save. The orks will be a problem afterwards though.
That's what the inquisition did at least.

Random thought: I thought I read somewhere that the Hive Mind is the gestalt consciousness of the Old Ones seeking revenge on the Necrons and C'Tan. Is this true? Because maybe leading the Nids to a Tomb world and letting them destroy each other could be an option.

Tyranids intentionally avoid tomb worlds. They get nothing out of killing Necrons except casualties, and unless its a tomb world hidden within an imperial planet. Even so, tyranids avoid crons like a plague.

I might just be crazy or tired or something. I could have sworn I read that somewhere though...
But I guess the point still stands: Getting the Necrons to engage the Tyranids would be a good way to stop a hive fleet

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I might just be crazy or tired or something. I could have sworn I read that somewhere though...
But I guess the point still stands: Getting the Necrons to engage the Tyranids would be a good way to stop a hive fleet

True enough, especially with the Guass flayer weapons. Necrons > everything

jakejackjake wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Because it will work once. If they fail to kill every Tyranid present, survivors may be devoured by another Fleet, which then becomes immune to the Life-Eater Virus, which then passes that immunity along to other Hive Fleets. Worse? The Tyranids metabolize the Virus and turn it into one of their own weapons.

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

Quite certain by it's nature that the life eater virus requires an atmosphere to work within. It makes a hole in the hull, it releases and is sucked straight into a vacuum without doing anything.

If that wasn't the case, torpedo's with the life eater virus, or even shells infused with it would be the single most useful and effective anti-ship weaponry in the imperial fleet, bar attacking necrons, daemons (not flesh right?) and anything that is so cybernetic in nature it wouldn't be worth the cost, and they would still be mostly effective even if it landed anyway. Land one torpedo and that ship is done for.

Obviously it's a suicide mission with a squad of people. You don't just shoot the life eater virus in to the void and cross your fingers. If 40k was logical they would do absolutely nothing the way they do so the fact they dont make use of one of their most devastating weapons is so surprising?

According to fluff simply drive a battle barge into the middle of the hive fleet and blow it up. Imperial Navy Battleship would work just as well.

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

And half a light year that way, in one other section of the Hive Fleet, another ship poops out a Norn Queen and the Hive Fleet rolls on.

There is also the fact that the LEV requires something like wind to move it around a planet. It is, after all, a virus... and, as we learned in the Second Armageddon War, it has a shelf-life, and is not commonly seen in the galaxy anymore (being a GC/Heresy-era weapon).

So you throw it into a Hive Ship, which starts to rapidly dissolve... hoping that you found the ship with a Norn Queen in it, and not just some other huge Tyranid vessel, and then the ship farts out a huge cloud of Life-Eater Virus into space, because Tyranid vessels are living creatures, with plenty of organisms that act like an immune system (in addition to its actual, robust immune system).

As is described earlier in the thread, the ship is also capable of flooding compartments with fluids. Much like humans do, this can be used as a way of purging the body of viri and bacteria... meanwhile allowing the Tyranids to sample the LEV.

Would it work? Maybe... once. Once the ship dissolves (and here we will assume it does work), all you're left with is a cloud of flammable gas in space, and whatever amount of the virus was left, spreading through the void of space from the outwardly-escaping gases from the dying Hive Ship.

Now you have dilute LEV in space, ripe for the sampling.

This has never ever occured to me, until just. It may be explained in the fluff, but if it has, I haven't read it.

The hive ships with the Nord queen, they are the centre of mass of the fleet effectively, take that out and the whole thing falls apart.

Usually, they are well guarded, and difficult to get a decent line of sight on, let alone actually approach it with proximity.

So, how the hell do they get biomass? Do one of the ships who do the eating, in turn get eaten by the hive ship? Otherwise they are attaining biomass from the planet directly, in which case that is the perfect moment to strike them, which sort of makes me think that isn't the case. As explained previously, the LEV most probably wouldn't work for various reasons, but, if it were to work and the hive ships do extract it's own biomass from a planet, that is the perfect vehicle for the weapon, and well, any form of ship boarding action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously I am sacrificing the planet by using the LEV against a hive ship that would be feeding directly from the planet, but to be honest, once numerous ships are already extracting a planets biomass, it's only a matter of time until that planet is lost anyway, I'd argue at that point it would be inevitable in fact.

LEV would be an effective way to prevent the taking of a world, but it is a Pyrrhic victory, indeed, as the planet is left a lifeless rock.

But, as far as feeding the ships go, that's basically how it works. The ground forces dissolve themselves in digestion pools which are then fed to the ships in orbit via capillary towers, which are likewise consumed, being sucked up into the last ships to feed, before the Fleet moves on.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
This has never ever occured to me, until just. It may be explained in the fluff, but if it has, I haven't read it.

The hive ships with the Nord queen, they are the centre of mass of the fleet effectively, take that out and the whole thing falls apart.

There isn't yust one ships there are norn queens trueout the whole fleet, and more will be created in nearby ships whenn you do kill one.

Two interesting possibilities!

1) The world is actually a Necron Tomb World. Tyranids cannot consume the Necrons, the Necrons have the firepower to kill all the Tyranids. Plot develops into Imperials having to escape out from in between the two titanic forces.

2) Radical Inquisitor appears on scene, with plan to defeat tyranids which uses something heretical- xeno-tech or warp sorcery, etc. etc. The plot develops into an interesting tensions over whether the Deathwatch characters acquiesce in the heretical plan and save the world, or refuse the Inquisitor and forsake the doomed world.

Alternatively:

3) Combine the two! World turns out to be a Tomb World. Radical Inquisitor works out how to use Necron tech to defeat Tyranids. Deathwatch must choose between heresy/victory versus purity/defeat, whilst escaping from the backdrop of the warring Necron Vs Tyranids!

 Psienesis wrote:

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

And half a light year that way, in one other section of the Hive Fleet, another ship poops out a Norn Queen and the Hive Fleet rolls on.

There is also the fact that the LEV requires something like wind to move it around a planet. It is, after all, a virus... and, as we learned in the Second Armageddon War, it has a shelf-life, and is not commonly seen in the galaxy anymore (being a GC/Heresy-era weapon).

So you throw it into a Hive Ship, which starts to rapidly dissolve... hoping that you found the ship with a Norn Queen in it, and not just some other huge Tyranid vessel, and then the ship farts out a huge cloud of Life-Eater Virus into space, because Tyranid vessels are living creatures, with plenty of organisms that act like an immune system (in addition to its actual, robust immune system).

As is described earlier in the thread, the ship is also capable of flooding compartments with fluids. Much like humans do, this can be used as a way of purging the body of viri and bacteria... meanwhile allowing the Tyranids to sample the LEV.

Would it work? Maybe... once. Once the ship dissolves (and here we will assume it does work), all you're left with is a cloud of flammable gas in space, and whatever amount of the virus was left, spreading through the void of space from the outwardly-escaping gases from the dying Hive Ship.

Now you have dilute LEV in space, ripe for the sampling.

You're thinking of all of the problems a kill team would have to solve but absolutely not proving it impossible. Also you don't have it in space for the sampling and the reason why has already been explained by someone else in this thread

Any large ship in a Hive Fleet is/may be capable of birthing Tyranid bio-forms, to include a Norn Queen(s). Unless you release the space-delivered LEV torpedo on the right ship, all you've done is expose a degree of the Fleet to the LEV, which will not kill every Tyranid present... and if that is the situation you find yourself in, then it is probably, if not inevitable, that one or more Tyranid bio-forms will be exposed to the virus but not killed by it... and in that scenario, you've just rendered this Hive Fleet immune to the LEV, eventually, and if this DW killteam does not then take other steps to wipe out the Tyranids, then both this world, and this Killteam, are dead.

And, again, worse still, this Hive Fleet has assimilated the genetic signature of the Life Eater Virus, and will eventually share that with other Hive Fleets, thus rendering Tyranid Bio-forms immune to it. It may still be used to render planets lifeless, but will not be as effective against Tyranids as it currently is, so is not an ideal weapon in the scenario presented.

Why are we discussing that. Finding the right ship would obviously be essential. Duh. Moving on.

All of your points are not points. You're just bringing up what would be involved in the mission. All those things are obvious issues. You don't just shoot the virus at any ol' ship and then leave the sector.

@Sir Samuel - I'm pretty sure out of the original 6 Blackstone Forresses - Abaddon has 2, Imperium has 3 and 1 is destroyed

 Azaghâl wrote:
@Sir Samuel - I'm pretty sure out of the original 6 Blackstone Forresses - Abaddon has 2, Imperium has 3 and 1 is destroyed

Incorrect. The Imperium has 0, as all the remaining ones self-destructed at the end of the Gothic War, as described in the BFG rulebook. Of the 2 that Abaddon escaped with, one was rumored to be destroyed by Necrons during the 13th Black Crusade (i.e. not confirmed) while the other one bombarded Cadia then left after Eldrad was sucked into its depths and killed.

Curse you Lexicanum!! *shakes fist*

In any case, an activated Blackstone Fortress alone if you go by its rules in BFG would not do that well against Tyranids. The reason is because its shots were individually powerful and had the bonus of ignoring shields, however this is not good against a more numerous fleet like the Tyranids as it cannot deal out damage fast enough. Also the Fortress lacked any point defense so would be vulnerable to any small craft like torpedoes or bombers or assault craft equivalents.

Iracundus wrote:

 Azaghâl wrote:
@Sir Samuel - I'm pretty sure out of the original 6 Blackstone Forresses - Abaddon has 2, Imperium has 3 and 1 is destroyed

Incorrect. The Imperium has 0, as all the remaining ones self-destructed at the end of the Gothic War, as described in the BFG rulebook. Of the 2 that Abaddon escaped with, one was rumored to be destroyed by Necrons during the 13th Black Crusade (i.e. not confirmed) while the other one bombarded Cadia then left after Eldrad was sucked into its depths and killed.

I though eldrad's death had been retconned in one of the recent eldar codex. IIRC, the 13th black crusade hasn't actually started yet in the fluff and the occurrences in that campaign have been ruled null in cannon. I could be wrong through. It isn't really relevant to our discussion.

What if there was a way using an artifact like The Pharos to back-channel and overload the synapses in the warp gestalt? If it can cut through warp storms it could probably cut through the shadow.

Something like that, some sort of artifact or relic of some sort, seems to me to be the most-likely chance, and possibly also the easiest to deploy in a Deathwatch game.

The Last Days of Ector mentions this. It's practically impossible to win without a fleet.

So I've compiled a list of resources the Inquisitor has
20 regular deathwatch guys npc
A 5 man Grey knight terminator squad
A Sisters of Battle convent
The Inquisitor himself
Platoons of pdf guys
Squads of Scions from the Inquisitors retinue
As far as vehicles go I thought the assault ram would be good for boarding the hive ship I also think drop pods can be used for boarding action (I have no proof of this I just saw another GM use them like that)
Is this enough to take out the Hive ship and any other tips on a boarding action would be nice.
Ps an ork blood axe Waaagh and a company of marines owe the Inquisitior a few favors

Drop pods can't be used for boarding actions.

You either need assault rams, boarding torpedoes, or assault boats (although in the latter case you get dropped on the outer hull and need to cut your way inside).

Taking over a ship - tyranid or not - with a couple of hundred people isn't viable, but then "taking over" a hive ship isn't possible anyway - it's a hostile living organism.

Killing it - by lobotmising it, or destroying its engines so it falls out of orbit, or setting off some sort of high-powered device by critical organs (vortex grenade[s] are good) is possible, but it's going to have to be very much a 'hit and run' strike.

Getting past defending drones and kraken patrolling around the outside of the ship can be a real trick - you might want a couple of destroyers to run escort (if you do, they're probably not coming back).

A good 'boarding a hive ship' mission actually already exists - although you'll need to tweak the difficulty level to match the power level of the party and allies. Look on Fantasy Flight's web page for a mission called Oblivion's Edge. It's a free .pdf download.

 chazz huggins wrote:
So I've compiled a list of resources the Inquisitor has
20 regular deathwatch guys npc
A 5 man Grey knight terminator squad
A Sisters of Battle convent
The Inquisitor himself
Platoons of pdf guys
Squads of Scions from the Inquisitors retinue
As far as vehicles go I thought the assault ram would be good for boarding the hive ship I also think drop pods can be used for boarding action (I have no proof of this I just saw another GM use them like that)
Is this enough to take out the Hive ship and any other tips on a boarding action would be nice.
Ps an ork blood axe Waaagh and a company of marines owe the Inquisitior a few favors

Sisters won't ally with Xenos. Ever. "Thou shalt not have truck with the Xenos" and all that sort of thing. Sisters would rather die, their purity and honor intact, than sully themselves with that heresy.
GK are not ideal against Xenos, most of their bag of tricks is centered on daemon-fighting.
Remember that Tyranids typically outnumber any force thousands to 1.
20 DW members is a lot of DW members... Killteams are normally 5 guys.

As mentioned, pods can't really be used as boarding torpedoes, though I suppose one could turn the Strike Cruiser or Battle Barge belly-facing to the Hive Ship and fire them that way... though, as Pods have basically no control systems or defenses, that's going to be a lot of dead Marines from the ones that miss and the ones that get taken out by the point-defense systems (spores and such mentioned previously) by the Hive Ship.

If you plan on fighting these bugs in space, you need Naval assets. Lots and lots of Naval assets.

In order to save a planet from Tyranids you need to exterminate every last organism, right down to the rippers. 5th Ed codex depicts a broken force of maybe a few hundred Nids, with a dozen Tyranid Warriors for synapse, replenishing and completely overriding the Ork held world of Gholora, including building ships to rejoin the fleet. You have to exterminate them all to be sure. In addition you have to do it before they start to build the big towers to assimilate the world, throw out spores to poison the world, so that even if you win the planet is uninhabitable, and before they start Terra-forming via ocean of Rippers

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't see why toxins and biological warfare can't work.

If you kill them quick enough, their individual bodies won't have time to adapt - therefore you can keep re-using them.

Prolonged contact with them leads to resistance. Rapidly kill them and they won't have time to adapt.

I have to agree with Wulfmar here. This is why hellfire rounds work.

Hellfire rounds contain a mutagenic acid. It's toxic, yes, but it's also highly, highly corrosive. That's the real strength in a Hellfire round.

It's a simple flow chart.

Did you win the space battle, Y/N?

Y: Yay, you're saved.

N: You gonna get nommed.

In the Skitarii codex there is a section in the time line titled; 748.M41 rain of fire - it says a skitarii cohort commander 'turns the tide' by outputting the planets promethium production into a strata of the planets atmosphere which is then set alight by Onagers with nuetron lasers. the burning sky sets fire to all tyrannid reinforcements as they are 'podded down, burning as they go through the atmosphere and then setting fire to the 'nids already on the ground.

It says the tactic was recorded and sent to 'Accatran' where it was filed away and frogotten!

 SirDonlad wrote:
In the Skitarii codex there is a section in the time line titled; 748.M41 rain of fire - it says a skitarii cohort commander 'turns the tide' by outputting the planets promethium production into a strata of the planets atmosphere which is then set alight by Onagers with nuetron lasers. the burning sky sets fire to all tyrannid reinforcements as they are 'podded down, burning as they go through the atmosphere and then setting fire to the 'nids already on the ground.

It says the tactic was recorded and sent to 'Accatran' where it was filed away and frogotten!

Given that this would probably set every organic being on fire too, this tactic is only really viable for the admech and necrons. Since well; humans aren't exactly fireproof.

"Purify" it.

Preferably from orbit.

 Kain wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
In the Skitarii codex there is a section in the time line titled; 748.M41 rain of fire - it says a skitarii cohort commander 'turns the tide' by outputting the planets promethium production into a strata of the planets atmosphere which is then set alight by Onagers with nuetron lasers. the burning sky sets fire to all tyrannid reinforcements as they are 'podded down, burning as they go through the atmosphere and then setting fire to the 'nids already on the ground.

It says the tactic was recorded and sent to 'Accatran' where it was filed away and frogotten!

Given that this would probably set every organic being on fire too, this tactic is only really viable for the admech and necrons. Since well; humans aren't exactly fireproof.

Considering the temperatures of burning the atmosphere, not even the Admech and Necrons would survive that.

Yeah, setting the atmosphere on fire is the opposite of "saving the planet". I mean, that's basically "part 2" of the Life-Eater Virus, when all that hydrogen released by the rapid decomposition of organic matter finds a heat source... fwoosh.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, setting the atmosphere on fire is the opposite of "saving the planet". I mean, that's basically "part 2" of the Life-Eater Virus, when all that hydrogen released by the rapid decomposition of organic matter finds a heat source... fwoosh.

Agreed. That's not "saving" a planet.

I think they overstate the power of the nids me, if only because humanity breeds like fething rats too.

Think about it, in the fluff it says some hive worlds have 300 billion people on them. I reckon If I had 6 weeks notice I would square them away with enough gak to pwn the nids, we have opposable thumbs. An elderly human can kill a lion with a firearm.

Conscript everyone between the age of 14-60 and give them 4 weeks rudimentary training. Build massive fortifications and order 200 billion las-guns and 50 billion rocket launchers.

Easy.

 mattyrm wrote:
I think they overstate the power of the nids me, if only because humanity breeds like fething rats too.

Think about it, in the fluff it says some hive worlds have 300 billion people on them. I reckon If I had 6 weeks notice I would square them away with enough gak to pwn the nids, we have opposable thumbs. An elderly human can kill a lion with a firearm.

Conscript everyone between the age of 14-60 and give them 4 weeks rudimentary training. Build massive fortifications and order 200 billion las-guns and 50 billion rocket launchers.

Easy.

Lions do not have guns. Tyranids do.
The problem is that the Nids have more troops. Far more troops. The Nids will never run out of troops as long as there is stuff to eat. 300 billion people provide a whole lot of food, especially since civillians with 4 weeks training make for horrible soldiers against an enemy such as the Nids. They will not hold the line against a monstrous Tyranid onslaught, they will drop their weapon and run like hell.
Besides, unless you just happen to be on a Forgeworld that produces them, there is no way you are going to get hundreds of billions of weapons within the next decade, let alone 6 weeks. Not to mention that the Nids cut of all communications, making them impossible to order and even if you had them small arms will do you little good against carnifexes and bio-titans. You are going to need tanks, artillery, food, water and all the other supplies neccessary for keeping a Hive World running along with a huge army in wartime.
The Nids have your planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy, they poison your atmosphere and feed on every little molecule of biomass they can get their claws on to produce an endless wave of monstrosities. Good luck.

 mattyrm wrote:
I think they overstate the power of the nids me, if only because humanity breeds like fething rats too.

Think about it, in the fluff it says some hive worlds have 300 billion people on them. I reckon If I had 6 weeks notice I would square them away with enough gak to pwn the nids, we have opposable thumbs. An elderly human can kill a lion with a firearm.

Conscript everyone between the age of 14-60 and give them 4 weeks rudimentary training. Build massive fortifications and order 200 billion las-guns and 50 billion rocket launchers.

Easy.

That's not enough when you consider that the Tyranids have mountains worth of biomass to throw at the enemy.

 SirDonlad wrote:
In the Skitarii codex there is a section in the time line titled; 748.M41 rain of fire - it says a skitarii cohort commander 'turns the tide' by outputting the planets promethium production into a strata of the planets atmosphere which is then set alight by Onagers with nuetron lasers. the burning sky sets fire to all tyrannid reinforcements as they are 'podded down, burning as they go through the atmosphere and then setting fire to the 'nids already on the ground.

It says the tactic was recorded and sent to 'Accatran' where it was filed away and frogotten!

I like your thinking but unlike the mechanicus I think the imperial citizens prefer having a livable planet

Well Ciaphas Cain has been saving a few planets. from what he describes basically you need to take out the fleet. Same is confirmed by the Ultramarines as they had a battleship detonating its warp-drive. Then you need to ceaselessly patrol and burn anything remotely Tyranid. So it can be done, its just extremely hard to do.

Crassus wrote:
Well Ciaphas Cain has been saving a few planets. from what he describes basically you need to take out the fleet. Same is confirmed by the Ultramarines as they had a battleship detonating its warp-drive. Then you need to ceaselessly patrol and burn anything remotely Tyranid. So it can be done, its just extremely hard to do.

Same with the last engagements of the 1st Aurelian Crusade- Ravens 3rd had to poison the fleet itself, then corner the little bastards to kill the majority of them, thus ending the infestation.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Crassus wrote:
Well Ciaphas Cain has been saving a few planets. from what he describes basically you need to take out the fleet. Same is confirmed by the Ultramarines as they had a battleship detonating its warp-drive. Then you need to ceaselessly patrol and burn anything remotely Tyranid. So it can be done, its just extremely hard to do.

Same with the last engagements of the 1st Aurelian Crusade- Ravens 3rd had to poison the fleet itself, then corner the little bastards to kill the majority of them, thus ending the infestation.

Indeed, and the Last Chancers had one where they managed to scatter a Tyranid fleet. Which was noted as a non-ideal solution since they will be back.

Crassus wrote:
Well Ciaphas Cain has been saving a few planets. from what he describes basically you need to take out the fleet. Same is confirmed by the Ultramarines as they had a battleship detonating its warp-drive. Then you need to ceaselessly patrol and burn anything remotely Tyranid. So it can be done, its just extremely hard to do.

Really it's just like an post-Waaggghh! scenario. The planet, if saved, will try an destroy any feral orks they see, and attempt to eradicate any and all possible source of Ork infestation (since the fungus-theory is now thrown into ambiguity, what should be considered the source of infestation is anybody's guess). Similarly, the planets that survived a Tyranid Invasion (such as Macragge, which took years for the Ultramarines to supposedly annihilate the remnants of Hive Fleet Behemoth) would be under constant threat from potential Tyranid raids for perhaps forever. But as long as they survive and show the promise of fighting off the pocket resistance, the planets will be allowed to continue paying the Imperial tithe.

I imagine in time, the small stranded tyranids would be, like the Ymgarl genestealers, considered by the locals as just another deadly critter inhibiting their world. Of course, in this case, the officials would be well aware of the true nature of these creatures.

 lcmiracle wrote:

Crassus wrote:
Well Ciaphas Cain has been saving a few planets. from what he describes basically you need to take out the fleet. Same is confirmed by the Ultramarines as they had a battleship detonating its warp-drive. Then you need to ceaselessly patrol and burn anything remotely Tyranid. So it can be done, its just extremely hard to do.

Really it's just like an post-Waaggghh! scenario. The planet, if saved, will try an destroy any feral orks they see, and attempt to eradicate any and all possible source of Ork infestation (since the fungus-theory is now thrown into ambiguity, what should be considered the source of infestation is anybody's guess). Similarly, the planets that survived a Tyranid Invasion (such as Macragge, which took years for the Ultramarines to supposedly annihilate the remnants of Hive Fleet Behemoth) would be under constant threat from potential Tyranid raids for perhaps forever. But as long as they survive and show the promise of fighting off the pocket resistance, the planets will be allowed to continue paying the Imperial tithe.

I imagine in time, the small stranded tyranids would be, like the Ymgarl genestealers, considered by the locals as just another deadly critter inhibiting their world. Of course, in this case, the officials would be well aware of the true nature of these creatures.

Not all the stranded Nids would be small. Mind you the legend of Old One-eye. But you points stands. The Nids and Orks basically adapt the climate and many of the Nids can hibernate as Cain again shows, though the Orks doesn't do it to such extreme degrees.

The Ymgarl Genestealers are an unwelcome adaptation which is shunned by the Hive Mind, I don't know why and hate to fancy a guess.

And seeing the Nids as just another dangerous critter is a major mistake, they are feral outside the Hive Mind, sure, but under it. Then you better bring your brown pants.

Feral Tyranids are a threat that always must be kept in check.

There is always the risk that they spam synapse creatures and overrun the planet like happened in Beta Alphelion IV or Ghorala.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I think they overstate the power of the nids me, if only because humanity breeds like fething rats too.

Think about it, in the fluff it says some hive worlds have 300 billion people on them. I reckon If I had 6 weeks notice I would square them away with enough gak to pwn the nids, we have opposable thumbs. An elderly human can kill a lion with a firearm.

Conscript everyone between the age of 14-60 and give them 4 weeks rudimentary training. Build massive fortifications and order 200 billion las-guns and 50 billion rocket launchers.

Easy.

Lions do not have guns. Tyranids do.
The problem is that the Nids have more troops. Far more troops. The Nids will never run out of troops as long as there is stuff to eat. 300 billion people provide a whole lot of food, especially since civillians with 4 weeks training make for horrible soldiers against an enemy such as the Nids. They will not hold the line against a monstrous Tyranid onslaught, they will drop their weapon and run like hell.
Besides, unless you just happen to be on a Forgeworld that produces them, there is no way you are going to get hundreds of billions of weapons within the next decade, let alone 6 weeks. Not to mention that the Nids cut of all communications, making them impossible to order and even if you had them small arms will do you little good against carnifexes and bio-titans. You are going to need tanks, artillery, food, water and all the other supplies neccessary for keeping a Hive World running along with a huge army in wartime.
The Nids have your planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy, they poison your atmosphere and feed on every little molecule of biomass they can get their claws on to produce an endless wave of monstrosities. Good luck.

Not to mention they can rapidly adapt to enemy tactics, species and weaponry at a genetic level, literally poisoning the very air with spores and digesting you lungs first. Become completely invulnerable to your laser pointer lasguns (as they did against the Tau, whrre Gorgon was able to adapt near immunity to that version of Pulse Ammo to the basic gaunts and Warriors).

Stop them in space is is the most effective, kill everything, patrol for years to hunt down every last bug,ship or scrap of hull.

Complete and total destruction.

Once on land it's a awful lot harder.

Crassus wrote:
Well Ciaphas Cain has been saving a few planets. from what he describes basically you need to take out the fleet. Same is confirmed by the Ultramarines as they had a battleship detonating its warp-drive. Then you need to ceaselessly patrol and burn anything remotely Tyranid. So it can be done, its just extremely hard to do.

Sadly, not everyone can afford the expensive plot armor Commisar Cain has. Though to be fair he did discover some nice bits info on the nids, and he does do pretty good in combat and it's not like he goes waltzing with carnifexes at every corner.

2BlackJack1 wrote:

Crassus wrote:
Well Ciaphas Cain has been saving a few planets. from what he describes basically you need to take out the fleet. Same is confirmed by the Ultramarines as they had a battleship detonating its warp-drive. Then you need to ceaselessly patrol and burn anything remotely Tyranid. So it can be done, its just extremely hard to do.

Sadly, not everyone can afford the expensive plot armor Commisar Cain has. Though to be fair he did discover some nice bits info on the nids, and he does do pretty good in combat and it's not like he goes waltzing with carnifexes at every corner.

Colonel Schaeffer does that with his plasma pistol.

And Cain has gone up against ver bad stuff to come out alive, utter badass, or Marty Stu. I go by the former though.

The point is, that you can win against the Nids, but it would be really difficult.

Yes, but you need a way to take the Hive Fleet.

 Tyran wrote:
Yes, but you need a way to take the Hive Fleet.

You can surround it, or drive a battleship into the middle of it to detonate. The latter is described in Cain and the Last Chancers as the tactic to do away with Nids.

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Yes, but you need a way to take the Hive Fleet.

You can surround it, or drive a battleship into the middle of it to detonate. The latter is described in Cain and the Last Chancers as the tactic to do away with Nids.

The battleship tactic hasn't worked since Behemoth. And in Cain's case it was a crashed Hive Ship, not a Hive Fleet.

 Tyran wrote:

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Yes, but you need a way to take the Hive Fleet.

You can surround it, or drive a battleship into the middle of it to detonate. The latter is described in Cain and the Last Chancers as the tactic to do away with Nids.

The battleship tactic hasn't worked since Behemoth. And in Cain's case it was a crashed Hive Ship, not a Hive Fleet.

It was mentioned in Veil's footnotes actually. Wording being like: That for once the Imperial navy actually snared and surrounded a Hive Fleet. Cain awoke a crashed Hive Ship yes, but thats two different stories.

Once a world is overtaken by the shadow in the warp, it is probably too late. At that point, one must think of the next system.

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Yes, but you need a way to take the Hive Fleet.

You can surround it, or drive a battleship into the middle of it to detonate. The latter is described in Cain and the Last Chancers as the tactic to do away with Nids.

The battleship tactic hasn't worked since Behemoth. And in Cain's case it was a crashed Hive Ship, not a Hive Fleet.

It was mentioned in Veil's footnotes actually. Wording being like: That for once the Imperial navy actually snared and surrounded a Hive Fleet. Cain awoke a crashed Hive Ship yes, but thats two different stories.

It's worth noting that Cain is mostly fighting splinters of Behemoth, and in the case of The Greater Good, what is probably a splinter of Gorgon (which spent most of its time in and around Tau space).

The important difference is the scale of the fleet. A splinter of Behemoth or Gorgon is much easier to surround than one of Leviathan, which has started smashing systems with tendrils consisting of millions of hive ships, not to mention the swarms of drones and smaller escort-style creatures which form a living shield around the fleet.

The fleet that attacks the Shield of Baal is so monstrous that even the Necrons accept that there would be no victory in space or on the ground by conventional means, so they cut their losses and explode a gas giant to try and burn everything out of the system (and even that doesn't finish the job; though it does reduce the biomass the fleet takes with it and kill a decent chunk of the bio-ships nearest the gas giant).

Creative solutions like that are about all we've got left at the moment, and even then all tha thas to happen is for a wounded fleet to happen upon an un-defended system of delicious agri-worlds and suddenly all its losses are replenished with minimal effort.

Bugs Bunny would dress up as a girl Nid and lure all the love-smitten Nids off planet.

 Tyran wrote:

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Yes, but you need a way to take the Hive Fleet.

You can surround it, or drive a battleship into the middle of it to detonate. The latter is described in Cain and the Last Chancers as the tactic to do away with Nids.

The battleship tactic hasn't worked since Behemoth. And in Cain's case it was a crashed Hive Ship, not a Hive Fleet.

In addition to that, Leviathan is a hundred times the size of Behemoth, plus Behemoth nearly wiped out one of the most heavily defended aystems in the Imperium in the process. On top of that it cost the Imperium nearly a whole Battlefleet, the entire Ultramarines Chapter (which would have had desperate ramifications) and DID cost them an Emperor-class Battleship, which is probably irreplacable given their technological advancement and size.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xyptc wrote:

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Yes, but you need a way to take the Hive Fleet.

You can surround it, or drive a battleship into the middle of it to detonate. The latter is described in Cain and the Last Chancers as the tactic to do away with Nids.

The battleship tactic hasn't worked since Behemoth. And in Cain's case it was a crashed Hive Ship, not a Hive Fleet.

It was mentioned in Veil's footnotes actually. Wording being like: That for once the Imperial navy actually snared and surrounded a Hive Fleet. Cain awoke a crashed Hive Ship yes, but thats two different stories.

It's worth noting that Cain is mostly fighting splinters of Behemoth, and in the case of The Greater Good, what is probably a splinter of Gorgon (which spent most of its time in and around Tau space).

The important difference is the scale of the fleet. A splinter of Behemoth or Gorgon is much easier to surround than one of Leviathan, which has started smashing systems with tendrils consisting of millions of hive ships, not to mention the swarms of drones and smaller escort-style creatures which form a living shield around the fleet.

The fleet that attacks the Shield of Baal is so monstrous that even the Necrons accept that there would be no victory in space or on the ground by conventional means, so they cut their losses and explode a gas giant to try and burn everything out of the system (and even that doesn't finish the job; though it does reduce the biomass the fleet takes with it and kill a decent chunk of the bio-ships nearest the gas giant).

Creative solutions like that are about all we've got left at the moment, and even then all tha thas to happen is for a wounded fleet to happen upon an un-defended system of delicious agri-worlds and suddenly all its losses are replenished with minimal effort.

This as well. If the Necrons can't hack it in space, considering they are the most Navally advanced race in the Galaxy by a huge margin, are massivwly resilient and intelligent, AND don't replenish Nid losses, then the rest of the Galaxy is screwed.

 Manchu wrote:
Once a world is overtaken by the shadow in the warp, it is probably too late. At that point, one must think of the next system.

True, but in Dawn of War you save planets that has fallen under that. And still you save the worlds from them even when they are really corrupted. Speed is key when it comes to dealing with the Nids.

Crassus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Once a world is overtaken by the shadow in the warp, it is probably too late. At that point, one must think of the next system.

True, but in Dawn of War you save planets that has fallen under that. And still you save the worlds from them even when they are really corrupted. Speed is key when it comes to dealing with the Nids.

The infestations are never really completely eradicated, and in the Tyranid campaigns of Retribution a whole new Hive Fleet is spammed from those feral infestations.

 Tyran wrote:

Crassus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Once a world is overtaken by the shadow in the warp, it is probably too late. At that point, one must think of the next system.

True, but in Dawn of War you save planets that has fallen under that. And still you save the worlds from them even when they are really corrupted. Speed is key when it comes to dealing with the Nids.

The infestations are never really completely eradicated, and in the Tyranid campaigns of Retribution a whole new Hive Fleet is spammed from those feral infestations.

Mhm, you have Fenris and Catachan where lifeforms have developed from Tyranid ancestors. Though I'm only 90% certain of this. And to make matters worse, they might just go into hibernation, which means they might pop up at an inopportune time decades or even centuries later so good luck in getting rid of them and a single Genestealer can doom millions of people.

The only true way of getting rid of them is to basically destroy all life on the planet and hopefully do a Noah's Ark-solution with all plants as well. And you can imagine how practical this is.

Crassus wrote:
Mhm, you have Fenris and Catachan where lifeforms have developed from Tyranid ancestors

This is not confirmed.

Crassus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Crassus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Once a world is overtaken by the shadow in the warp, it is probably too late. At that point, one must think of the next system.

True, but in Dawn of War you save planets that has fallen under that. And still you save the worlds from them even when they are really corrupted. Speed is key when it comes to dealing with the Nids.

The infestations are never really completely eradicated, and in the Tyranid campaigns of Retribution a whole new Hive Fleet is spammed from those feral infestations.

Mhm, you have Fenris and Catachan where lifeforms have developed from Tyranid ancestors. Though I'm only 90% certain of this. And to make matters worse, they might just go into hibernation, which means they might pop up at an inopportune time decades or even centuries later so good luck in getting rid of them and a single Genestealer can doom millions of people.

The only true way of getting rid of them is to basically destroy all life on the planet and hopefully do a Noah's Ark-solution with all plants as well. And you can imagine how practical this is.

Tyranids also infest plants. There is even a bit of fluff somewhere of the Tyranids using local trees as birthing pods for more Tyranids IIRC.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your planet has a local population consisting of Ultramarines.

The best way I can think out is tricking some necrons to come and the fleet would theoretically bypass the planet.

Kill all the ones coming for the world, only way.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Crassus wrote:
Mhm, you have Fenris and Catachan where lifeforms have developed from Tyranid ancestors

This is not confirmed.

And even if its true, they would have been from earlier organisms that wouldn't necessarily have had the capability to respawn a hive fleet. Its possible that strategy hadn't been developed yet.

some Tau Earth caste scientists ate a advanced poison that was set on a chemical time delay. When they where devoured and brought into the hive ships and the poison activated it destroyed the entire fleet.

Also a Lictor's poison can be used. Kryptman and company once assassinated a Norm Queen with a dosage of that. in order to stop a tendril.

NauticalKendall wrote:
some Tau Earth caste scientists ate a advanced poison that was set on a chemical time delay. When they where devoured and brought into the hive ships and the poison activated it destroyed the entire fleet.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Also a Lictor's poison can be used. Kryptman and company once assassinated a Norm Queen with a dosage of that. in order to stop a tendril.

Those events only work by plot, as a counter example the IoM threw some viral bombs at a Hive Fleet, the Tyranids ate them and incorporate them in their weapons. Or that the virus that saved Tarsis Ultra has been useless against other Hive Fleets and splinter fleets. Or when the Tyranids out evolved Nurgle diseases.

 Tyran wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
some Tau Earth caste scientists ate a advanced poison that was set on a chemical time delay. When they where devoured and brought into the hive ships and the poison activated it destroyed the entire fleet.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Also a Lictor's poison can be used. Kryptman and company once assassinated a Norm Queen with a dosage of that. in order to stop a tendril.

Those events only work by plot, as a counter example the IoM threw some viral bombs at a Hive Fleet, the Tyranids ate them and incorporate them in their weapons. Or that the virus that saved Tarsis Ultra has been useless against other Hive Fleets and splinter fleets. Or when the Tyranids out evolved Nurgle diseases.

I never liked the story about Krypotman and company doing that. It seemed insane that a being develops a poison it can be affected by, but then again its not my place to judge and the Nids frakked up there. And was Tarsis Ultra saved? I was certain it was destroyed and evacuated.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
some Tau Earth caste scientists ate a advanced poison that was set on a chemical time delay. When they where devoured and brought into the hive ships and the poison activated it destroyed the entire fleet.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Also a Lictor's poison can be used. Kryptman and company once assassinated a Norm Queen with a dosage of that. in order to stop a tendril.

Those events only work by plot, as a counter example the IoM threw some viral bombs at a Hive Fleet, the Tyranids ate them and incorporate them in their weapons. Or that the virus that saved Tarsis Ultra has been useless against other Hive Fleets and splinter fleets. Or when the Tyranids out evolved Nurgle diseases.

I never liked the story about Krypotman and company doing that. It seemed insane that a being develops a poison it can be affected by, but then again its not my place to judge and the Nids frakked up there. And was Tarsis Ultra saved? I was certain it was destroyed and evacuated.

They developed a targetted bioweapon using an original strain lictor; ie, one of the first organisms on the planet. They made it target the original genes that all other Nids on the planet were based on, then injected it directly into the Norn Queen which immediately killed off the reinforcement embryoes because it targeted the basic DNA that tendril used. It hasn't worked on other fleets presumably because

A; the fleets now use a variety of DNA structures for their base troops (See Star Wars, where they changed from purely Fett clones to a variety of bases to prevent traitor genes).
B; The Killteams have no been able to get inside again
C; they kill.of first-strain creatures as soon as the fleet arrives.

They have been inside again. The Imperial Fisyts lost their previous Chapter Master Vladimir Pugh fighting a Nid-fleet.

The ONLY way is to destroy the hive ships first. As long as the fleet is in the system has hive ships in it more and more troops will be deployed to the surface. But that's actually not the biggest issue.

The moment a hive ship reaches low orbit it doesn't just deploy troops. It pumps out clouds of spores and microorganisms that begin to change the plant life and air to prep it for digestion. This causes capillary towers, digestion pools, and all that other stuff to start to form. It turns the sky red as it's choked with spore clouds and the whole planet begins to be terra formed.

So... Kill the hive ships. Kill the troops on the ground, you now have to fight against the still terraforming biosphere the tyranids started.

Easier to just blow the planet up.