Whatsup fello WH40k nerds!

Last night my best friend and I were discussing who the best Primarchs were in regards to fighting. This turned out to be a very fun 2 hour conversation over drinks and smokes. We ultimately decided that Russ was the best... But of course I know everyone here will disagree and rip into me with their reason why hahah

SOOOOOOOOO

I decided to do a fun Bracket of the primarchs just like in March Madness...

We have to seed the Primarchs 1-18 and then pair them off into a final battle.

Feel free to rank your Primarchs based on a 1on1 hand to hand combat. This includes weapons, just not physic activity (Magnus)

Enjoy and nerd out

What kind of "arena" would they get? I imagine some environments would benefit certain primarchs more than others.

At peak of powers, Horus.
Theres just no debate on that.

You mean like the FW stats?

 Ratius wrote:
At peak of powers, Horus.
Theres just no debate on that.

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back. All we know is that he bested an exhausted Sanguinius who just took out an army of Daemons.

Although in terms of shear damage, Magnus can probably kill everyone by doing something like dumping the planet they're currently on into the warp.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
At peak of powers, Horus.
Theres just no debate on that.

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back. All we know is that he bested an exhausted Sanguinius who just took out an army of Daemons.

Although in terms of shear damage, Magnus can probably kill everyone by doing something like dumping the planet they're currently on into the warp.

No psychic stuff, OP even pointed out magnus when he said it

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
At peak of powers, Horus.
Theres just no debate on that.

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back. All we know is that he bested an exhausted Sanguinius who just took out an army of Daemons.

Although in terms of shear damage, Magnus can probably kill everyone by doing something like dumping the planet they're currently on into the warp.

No psychic stuff, OP even pointed out magnus when he said it

I ignored it on grounds of it being completely stupid. You don't decide who is the best by tying their arms behind their backs and telling them to headbutt each other to death. Especially when psychic powers is how ALL of the Primarchs draw their strength and general absurdity from. Primarchs without any psychic mojo get pasted like that clone of Horus by Abaddon before he even became the Warmaster of Chaos.

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

Except Horus has demonstrated no impressive combat feats at all, we have zero evidence on his duel with the Emperor (meaning it's useless), and the only explanaiton for him say, beating Sanguinius is that Sanguinius was weakened. Otherwise, as Sanguinius has demonstrated the ability to fly at supersonic/hypersonic speeds, he could have simply slammed into Horus at such speeds that Horus may have even been launched over the channel.

I agree there is no concrete evidence of his powers yet. But if one extrapolates from the older fluff pre BL HH series, he was essentially fighting a God in a duel. Yes it could have been handbags at dawn but realistically it was truely titanic.

I'd be surprised to say the least if when BL write the final scene its not of fairly epic proportions and should give us a more concrete feel for Horus powers and abilities.

 Ratius wrote:
I agree there is no concrete evidence of his powers yet. But if one extrapolates from the older fluff pre BL HH series, he was essentially fighting a God in a duel. Yes it could have been handbags at dawn but realistically it was truely titanic.

I'd be surprised to say the least if when BL write the final scene its not of fairly epic proportions and should give us a more concrete feel for Horus powers and abilities.

I'd have expected the Emperor not holding back to have probably rekt Horus' battle barge.

However if I recall the Emperor wanted to face him face to face no?
To see what he had become.

Besides its possible the Barge had some sort of super shielding or warding.

If we are doing 1 on 1 battles giving horus the assistence of 4 gods seems a bit unfair.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Although in terms of shear damage, Magnus can probably kill everyone by doing something like dumping the planet they're currently on into the warp.

Magnus "lacks feats" for anything on that scale.

He doesn't, however, "lack feats" for getting his butt handed to him by a non-psychic Primarch, in spite of all his supposed might.

So either way he is clearly out of the running for the top spot.

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

There is evidence that the Emperor was holding back. Whichever version of the story you read, Ollanius Pius or a Custodes, it is depicted as the Emperor immediately seeing that Horus was truly lost. At which point he obliterates Horus with a single attack.

Besides, if we're going to hamstring Magnus' psychic powers then we should also only be looking at Horus without his Chaos empowerment.

 Ratius wrote:
However if I recall the Emperor wanted to face him face to face no?
To see what he had become.

Besides its possible the Barge had some sort of super shielding or warding.

I was referring to Asura's wrath esque collateral damage as the battle barge gets torn to shreds by the power wielded by the two as they slam fists into each other with atomic bomb like force and mind bullet spam like gods.

 Ratius wrote:
the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.

I thought Sangy opened that chink in his armour.

tgjensen wrote:


Magnus "lacks feats" for anything on that scale.
He doesn't, however, "lack feats" for getting his butt handed to him by a non-psychic Primarch, in spite of all his supposed might.

Except smacking around a couple of Eldar titans around like little babys. Or was that the legion that did that? I dont remember.
Yes Russ is a non Psyker, in the same way a rune priest isnt a psyker.

To be fair, when Russ showed up at Magnus' homeworld, Magnus sat back and watched at the beginning because he felt he deserved it, but once his libraries of vast knowledge got leveled, then he went onto the attack. Russ still would have won the fight, but Magnus let him do a bit of damage at first. (Russ then preceded to break Magnus' back after Magnus decides to fight)

In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

the ancient wrote:

Except smacking around a couple of Eldar titans around like little babys. Or was that the legion that did that? I dont remember.

That is orders of magnitude from dropping a planet into the warp, which was the claim in question.

Yes Russ is a non Psyker, in the same way a rune priest isnt a psyker.

Russ is a non-psyker compared to Magnus. Russ is no more psychic than many of his brothers. The point is, Magnus has a huge psychic advantage over his brothers - including Russ - and still lost to him. Or, if you want to be charitable, it was a close match and almost kinda a draw. Either way Magnus' psychic abilities are clearly not the magic win-button it is described as. By feats.

Bassline wrote:
In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

Except that we know that Angron beat Russ. Corax believes that only Horus and Sanguinius have a chance against Angron, and Horus believes only Angron has a chance against Sanguinius. That puts Angron and Sanguinius together at the top of the list, with Horus either with them or close behind.

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Although in terms of shear damage, Magnus can probably kill everyone by doing something like dumping the planet they're currently on into the warp.

Magnus "lacks feats" for anything on that scale.

He doesn't, however, "lack feats" for getting his butt handed to him by a non-psychic Primarch, in spite of all his supposed might.

So either way he is clearly out of the running for the top spot.

All Primarchs are psykers, they use it to different degrees in different ways, but all twenty were warp spawned creatures similar to Greater Daemons, only more fleshy. Plus Russ has a natural psyker dampening ability, and Magnus can do things like freeze time. Also, given that Malcador was able to kick Titan into the warp, I'm pretty certain Magnus could do the same as Magnus should at least be just as powerful as Malcador, if not more so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
However if I recall the Emperor wanted to face him face to face no?
To see what he had become.

Besides its possible the Barge had some sort of super shielding or warding.

Regular old psykers far weaker than the Emperor can fling multi kilometer objects like they're a stone. If Horus' Battle Barge had some protection from the Chaos Gods preventing it from being punted into Sol, the Emperor could have just as easily chucked another war-ship at it with little fuss. He definitely was holding back when looking at other psykers.

(For example, Betas and Alphas have chucked a starship and flown to space and cleaved capital ships in half [Khayon and Dak'ir])

As far as pure combat potential goes, it's definitely Sanguinius in terms of raw power. I remember somebody calcing his flying speed in one book as hypersonic (based off the time it took him to fly the distance of a capital ship), meaning he's tossing hypersonic haymakers at people.

 Orblivion wrote:

Bassline wrote:
In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

Except that we know that Angron beat Russ. Corax believes that only Horus and Sanguinius have a chance against Angron, and Horus believes only Angron has a chance against Sanguinius. That puts Angron and Sanguinius together at the top of the list, with Horus either with them or close behind.

Why should I care what Corax thinks?

 Great White wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Bassline wrote:
In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

Except that we know that Angron beat Russ. Corax believes that only Horus and Sanguinius have a chance against Angron, and Horus believes only Angron has a chance against Sanguinius. That puts Angron and Sanguinius together at the top of the list, with Horus either with them or close behind.

Why should I care what Corax thinks?

Why should I care whether or not you care?

 Wyzilla wrote:

All Primarchs are psykers, they use it to different degrees in different ways, but all twenty were warp spawned creatures similar to Greater Daemons, only more fleshy.

The Primarchs were made in a laboratory. They may certainly all have been exposed to the Warp, and that may certainly be the source of the mutations and psychic powers some of them exhibit, but that is not the same as being warp spawned. Dorn, Guilliman, Vulkan, Mortarion, Ferrus etc. never displayed any kind of psychic abilities that I am aware of.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus Russ has a natural psyker dampening ability, and Magnus can do things like freeze time. Also, given that Malcador was able to kick Titan into the warp, I'm pretty certain Magnus could do the same as Magnus should at least be just as powerful as Malcador, if not more so.

Well, then Magnus should have thought of that when the Space Wolves were running rampant on his home planet. It's not like Russ' natural psychic dampening covered the entire planet. He's only one man, and can only be in one place at a time. Unless of course it isn't as simple as just throwing out a magic spell willy-nilly.

tgjensen wrote:
The Primarchs were made in a laboratory. They may certainly all have been exposed to the Warp, and that may certainly be the source of the mutations and psychic powers some of them exhibit, but that is not the same as being warp spawned. Dorn, Guilliman, Vulkan, Mortarion, Ferrus etc. never displayed any kind of psychic abilities that I am aware of.

The Emperor took knowledge from the Chaos Gods to actually give the Primarchs life though. They could very well be daemons given permanent host bodies for all we know. What we do know however, is that the warp was used in their making.

tgjensen wrote:
Well, then Magnus should have thought of that when the Space Wolves were running rampant on his home planet. It's not like Russ' natural psychic dampening covered the entire planet. He's only one man, and can only be in one place at a time. Unless of course it isn't as simple as just throwing out a magic spell willy-nilly.

IIRC, Magnus was using his psychic powers to assist his woefully outnumbered legion while physically fighting with Russ at the same time.

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

All Primarchs are psykers, they use it to different degrees in different ways, but all twenty were warp spawned creatures similar to Greater Daemons, only more fleshy.

The Primarchs were made in a laboratory. They may certainly all have been exposed to the Warp, and that may certainly be the source of the mutations and psychic powers some of them exhibit, but that is not the same as being warp spawned. Dorn, Guilliman, Vulkan, Mortarion, Ferrus etc. never displayed any kind of psychic abilities that I am aware of.

They're warp spawn made with knowledge stolen from the Chaos Gods. The God Emperor cut a deal with the Chaos Gods to get knowledge on how to create souls that would fuel each of his twenty sons, only to never pay the Chaos Gods back in return. Thus, cue the Horus Heresy.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus Russ has a natural psyker dampening ability, and Magnus can do things like freeze time. Also, given that Malcador was able to kick Titan into the warp, I'm pretty certain Magnus could do the same as Magnus should at least be just as powerful as Malcador, if not more so.

Well, then Magnus should have thought of that when the Space Wolves were running rampant on his home planet. It's not like Russ' natural psychic dampening covered the entire planet. He's only one man, and can only be in one place at a time. Unless of course it isn't as simple as just throwing out a magic spell willy-nilly.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They're warp spawn made with knowledge stolen from the Chaos Gods. The God Emperor cut a deal with the Chaos Gods to get knowledge on how to create souls that would fuel each of his twenty sons, only to never pay the Chaos Gods back in return. Thus, cue the Horus Heresy.

Say the Chaos daemons. And why would they ever lie?

I mean, the Horus Heresy caused a war on a scale scarcely ever seen before (Khorne) and great political upheaval, scheming and change (Tzeentch). Wars, and their aftermath, invariably cause a great deal of famine, crime and desolation, which is a fantastic breeding ground for diseases (Nurgle), and as a result we are pretty much cutting across the spectrum of emotions (Slaneesh). And then of course they each got a fancy Daemon Primarch in the deal. The Heresy in and of itself may well have been the goal of the Chaos Gods. They had every reason to say whatever lies they had to in order to cause it.

the answer is Russ. Assuming that this is a fist-fight, and Horus is not at the 'Infused-with-the-power-of-all-the-chaos-gods' stage.

We know that it is Russ because that was always his role - the Emperor's executioner. He had to be able to defeat the most powerful enemies the emperor could envision. Logically the Emperor created the primarchs to be as powerful as he could. Therefore the one he created to kill the toughest things must be the best fighter.

Others are smarter, bigger, psychicer, better tacticians, nicer, sneakier, more creative etc etc but Russ was the hard bastard.

Let's look at what we know (or is inferred) about Primarch vs Primarch.

Three primarchs have been killed, all by other primarchs.

2 by Russ
1 by Fulgrim

Curze has a good record, having defeated Dorn, Vulkan, Corax, and the Lion in fights, but he was also beaten by Lion too IIRC

Russ also beat Magnus in a fight. Magnus could probably have beaten him if he'd used psychic powers though - but the most powerful psychic abilities need time and space to cast - sacrifices, rituals etc etc that so probably not that useful in a one on one.

Horus was scared of Sanguinius as he thought that S was the only one who could beat him (and everyone liked him better). Given that a weakened S was no match for chaos Horus, we can assume that Horus's fears were based on his pre-chaos strength. Perhaps S is a challenger to Russ?

Who won the legendary fight between Russ and Lion though?

Russ beat Angron in a fight too, I am sure.

I mostly agree with that, though you forgot to mention Curze was killed by M'shen, so not every primarch was killed by another primarch.

 daddyorchips wrote:
the answer is Russ. Assuming that this is a fist-fight, and Horus is not at the 'Infused-with-the-power-of-all-the-chaos-gods' stage.

We know that it is Russ because that was always his role - the Emperor's executioner. He had to be able to defeat the most powerful enemies the emperor could envision. Logically the Emperor created the primarchs to be as powerful as he could. Therefore the one he created to kill the toughest things must be the best fighter.

Others are smarter, bigger, psychicer, better tacticians, nicer, sneakier, more creative etc etc but Russ was the hard bastard.

Let's look at what we know (or is inferred) about Primarch vs Primarch.

Three primarchs have been killed, all by other primarchs.

2 by Russ
1 by Fulgrim

Curze has a good record, having defeated Dorn, Vulkan, Corax, and the Lion in fights, but he was also beaten by Lion too IIRC

Russ also beat Magnus in a fight. Magnus could probably have beaten him if he'd used psychic powers though - but the most powerful psychic abilities need time and space to cast - sacrifices, rituals etc etc that so probably not that useful in a one on one.

Horus was scared of Sanguinius as he thought that S was the only one who could beat him (and everyone liked him better). Given that a weakened S was no match for chaos Horus, we can assume that Horus's fears were based on his pre-chaos strength. Perhaps S is a challenger to Russ?

Who won the legendary fight between Russ and Lion though?

Russ beat Angron in a fight too, I am sure.

Angron beat Russ in a fight.

We also don't know what happened to the two missing primarchs. The Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one of the missing legions, but we know nothing beyond that. It could be that Russ defeated the primarchs in single combat, it could be that the Space Wolves directed mass fire on the primarchs, or it could be that the primarchs were brought before the Emperor who disposed of them personally. We know too little about it to notch those as kills for Russ.

 daddyorchips wrote:

Who won the legendary fight between Russ and Lion though?

Lion wins the fist fight.

This invariably gets disputed though, with claiming that Russ wasn't going wholeheartedly.
Lion also beats Curze, though I've noticed that Curze's writing is a bit... schizophrenic, both in regards to him, and his abilities.

Take of that what you will.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Great White wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Bassline wrote:
In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

Except that we know that Angron beat Russ. Corax believes that only Horus and Sanguinius have a chance against Angron, and Horus believes only Angron has a chance against Sanguinius. That puts Angron and Sanguinius together at the top of the list, with Horus either with them or close behind.

Why should I care what Corax thinks?

Why should I care whether or not you care?

Why should I care about you caring or not caring about my level of caring?

No love for Loregar guys?

 GKTiberius wrote:
No love for Loregar guys?

Until his Chaos buffs, Lorgar would be sitting pretty at the bottom of the list, either right above or right below Horus.

Horus was one of the better hand-to-hand combatants.

I still have yet to see a 1-18 list....

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I mostly agree with that, though you forgot to mention Curze was killed by M'shen, so not every primarch was killed by another primarch.

But Curze only died to a Callidus assassin because he lowered all his defenses and let the assassin kill him. He also beat the crap out of Dorn in a very one sided hand to hand fight. I would say Curze is one of the better combatants. He has lots of experience killing with nothing but his bare hands.

The Lion would be top tier, due to his track record, along with Russ, Sanguinius, and Angron.

I would put Horus at mid tier, until he was pumped full of Chaos roids, at which point he became top tier. I don't know why some people seem to think that Horus was weaker in combat. Lack of feats? Only that we've seen. He was apparently good enough to become Warmaster. The other Primarchs seem to all have a healthy respect for him, and at least some of that comes from his combat skills. We know that Corax considered him a possible equal to Angron, and we know that he's eventually going to kill Sanguinius and put The Emperor in a permanent coma. As for why none of the super-psykers in the vicinity didn't just blow his ship to bits, did you ever consider that Horus was preventing it with his own warp-amped psychic powers? That's the simplest answer, and it would mean that the excuses everyone is making for Sangy and the Big E would hold less weight, because Horus had other things occupying him too.

After that, it takes a lot more guess work, with some more surely positioned than others

Mid tier- Fulgrim (for sure: killed Ferrus, put Guilliman in a coma), Curze, Vulkan, Magnus (psychic powers and still taking a near loss to Russ into account), possibly Khan, Corax, and Alpharius.

Low tier- Perturabo, Dorn, Guilliman (all more about tactics than brawn, and we have Guilliman and Dorn losing to other Primarchs on the record), Ferrus Manus (possibly mid-tier, but definitely lower than Fulgrim), Mortartian (I think I read somewhere that his combat skills weren't too hot in comparison with the other Primarchs, certainly nobody seemed particularly impressed with them), and Lorgar (pretty established in canon that he was always more of a speaker than a fighter)

 chuckz1487 wrote:
I still have yet to see a 1-18 list....

I'm not sure if people interpreted it correctly, I found the wording confusing personally, if you want a list 1-18 I can make one, but it won't be of whom I think is the best cc fighter, as eventually I would get to a point where I don't know enough of the primarchs to know who is better. Instead, I'm going off of the order when each primarch took to their legion. (Courtesy of the wiki)

1) Horus
2) Leman Russ
3) Ferrus Manus
4)Fulgrim
5) Vulkan
6) Rogal Dorn
7) Roboute Guilliman
8) Magnus the Red
9) Sanguinius
10) Lion El'Jonson
11) Perturabo
12) Mortarion
13) Lorgar
14) Jaghatai Khan
15) Konrad Curze
16) Angron
17) Corvus Cora
18) Alpharius Omegon

 fallinq wrote:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I mostly agree with that, though you forgot to mention Curze was killed by M'shen, so not every primarch was killed by another primarch.

But Curze only died to a Callidus assassin because he lowered all his defenses and let the assassin kill him. He also beat the crap out of Dorn in a very one sided hand to hand fight. I would say Curze is one of the better combatants. He has lots of experience killing with nothing but his bare hands.

The Lion would be top tier, due to his track record, along with Russ, Sanguinius, and Angron.

I would put Horus at mid tier, until he was pumped full of Chaos roids, at which point he became top tier. I don't know why some people seem to think that Horus was weaker in combat. Lack of feats? Only that we've seen. He was apparently good enough to become Warmaster. The other Primarchs seem to all have a healthy respect for him, and at least some of that comes from his combat skills. We know that Corax considered him a possible equal to Angron, and we know that he's eventually going to kill Sanguinius and put The Emperor in a permanent coma. As for why none of the super-psykers in the vicinity didn't just blow his ship to bits, did you ever consider that Horus was preventing it with his own warp-amped psychic powers? That's the simplest answer, and it would mean that the excuses everyone is making for Sangy and the Big E would hold less weight, because Horus had other things occupying him too.

After that, it takes a lot more guess work, with some more surely positioned than others

Mid tier- Fulgrim (for sure: killed Ferrus, put Guilliman in a coma), Curze, Vulkan, Magnus (psychic powers and still taking a near loss to Russ into account), possibly Khan, Corax, and Alpharius.

Low tier- Perturabo, Dorn, Guilliman (all more about tactics than brawn, and we have Guilliman and Dorn losing to other Primarchs on the record), Ferrus Manus (possibly mid-tier, but definitely lower than Fulgrim), Mortartian (I think I read somewhere that his combat skills weren't too hot in comparison with the other Primarchs, certainly nobody seemed particularly impressed with them), and Lorgar (pretty established in canon that he was always more of a speaker than a fighter)

I would put Sanguinius and Angron in the top tier by themselves. Russ, the Lion, Fulgrim, Horus and maybe Magnus* in the second tier. After that it gets a lot muddier I think.

The reason I put an asterisk next to Magnus is because I'm not certain if I'm remembering the fight properly. Was Magnus using his psychic powers to help his legion and only fighting Russ physically, or was he also using psychic powers against Russ? If he was just fighting with Russ physically than he fared very well and should be in the same tier I think.

According to Horus and corax the only one to stand against sanguinius would be Angron so those 2 would be the top fighting wise.

Of the 2 Angron has the better record fighting primarchs, Easily beating both russ and guilleman.

I might be remembering this wrong but didn't perturabo beat fulgrim in angel exterminatus while having his power drained? that would place him very high aswell.

Magnus could win but not without his phycic power.

 fallinq wrote:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I mostly agree with that, though you forgot to mention Curze was killed by M'shen, so not every primarch was killed by another primarch.

But Curze only died to a Callidus assassin because he lowered all his defenses and let the assassin kill him. He also beat the crap out of Dorn in a very one sided hand to hand fight. I would say Curze is one of the better combatants. He has lots of experience killing with nothing but his bare hands.

I wasn't saying M'Shen was capable of killing him in a fight, I was merely pointing it out that Curze hadn't died to a primarch. M'Shen was good, but not good enough to take out a primarch

I submit that Horus' primary success was as a strategist, coordinator, commander and inspiring leader. That's why he was chosen as Warmaster, not because he was the toughest, meanest fighter. Well, that and being the Emperor's trusted lieutenant and favorite.

That's not to say he wasn't a bad customer in personal combat, of course. Comparing any Primarch, even Lorgar, to a lesser entity is an exercise in futility.

My personal feeling is that Angron should be the most skilled personal combatant. From a storytelling perspective he's pretty much a one-trick pony. To rank anyone ahead of ol' Nails-in-the-Brain does him a disservice.

Sanguinus has his hypersonic wings and Angelic perfection, so he doesn't need to be tops in bada$$ery. Again, from a storytelling perspective he has other things going for him.

Russ is the Emperor's Executioner not because he's the biggest bada$$, but because he's unswervingly loyal to the Emperor's command and perfectly willing to do the dirty jobs.

Full disclosure - I loathe Russ. That said, while the Lion beat Russ, even I have to admit it was because Jon'son sucker punched Russ after a long, inconclusive struggle.

From Prospero Burns I got the impression that Magnus lost in large part because of his mental state (rather important to a psyker). The Wolves, including Russ himself, came completely tooled up for the prey they were hunting. By contrast, the K-Sons, including Magnus, were completely and deliberately unprepared. Even when Magnus comes to face Russ he appears reluctant, and we know he felt he deserved his fate. It's entirely possible that a fully prepared and motivated Magnus would have fared far better against Russ.

Still, I'd put Russ in the top tier along with Angron and Sanguinus. Counting psychic power I'd put Magnus on the first rank. With respect to other posters, Magnus clearly did not need prep to rip Titans in half. Ritual and ceremony were tools to enhance psychic power, not prerequisites.

Since the OP for some reason disallowed psyker abilities I'd drop Magnus to bottom rank alongside Lorgar. Both were more scholars than warriors.

Curze would be a wicked opponent if he had the chance to sow terror and uncertainty in advance. Even without that edge in a straight up arena fight I'd rank him right behind Angron, Sanguinus and Russ based on the way he handled Dorn. I think too many fans dismiss Dorn too easily based on that fight; I prefer to give Curze credit instead. Curze (who I also dislike) cut his teeth on the arts of stealth, terror and murder, which gives him extensive experience in one-on-one combat compared to more unit-oriented Primarchs like Guilliman and Dorn, but not as applicable to an arena fight as the gladiator Angron.

I'd personally rank Fulgrim highly as well. The way he honed his skills to perfection pre-Anathame would be an edge in a one-on-one duel, where it might not be applicable in the wild melee of mass combat. Again, I wouldn't rely much on his victories over a distraught Ferrus or post-Heresy Guilliman due to demonic influence. Not that he couldn't have beaten them in a fair pre-Heresy fight, it's just that with the demonic influence we can't be sure how much of the victory was actually Fulgrim.

I couldn't begin to rate most of the rest, but I'll take the words of Corax et. al. with a grain of salt. Prior to the Heresy most of the Primarchs viewed Horus with either envy or adoration that would skew their assessment of his fighting abilities.

In any case I'd be willing to bet the gap between the greatest and worst fighters among the Primarchs was a matter of scant degree. It would only matter if they were up against a peer or a being of equivalent power.

I know I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of any of 'em.

My two cents.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
In any case I'd be willing to bet the gap between the greatest and worst fighters among the Primarchs was a matter of scant degree. It would only matter if they were up against a peer or a being of equivalent power.

That's perhaps the best comment yet. :-)

Still, even if it's just a one vs one fight with no psychic powers allowed there's many variables to think of. IIRC Sanguinius was said to be the best swordsman of them all, which would serve him well in an honorable duel where you follow rules and act all gentlemanly. Someone more rabid like Angron or Leman Russ would have a slight advantage in a no-holds barred fight due to their aggressive fighting styles. But what if you start the fight on bikes and go at each other with power lances? And so on...

 daddyorchips wrote:
the answer is Russ. Assuming that this is a fist-fight, and Horus is not at the 'Infused-with-the-power-of-all-the-chaos-gods' stage.

We know that it is Russ because that was always his role - the Emperor's executioner. He had to be able to defeat the most powerful enemies the emperor could envision. Logically the Emperor created the primarchs to be as powerful as he could. Therefore the one he created to kill the toughest things must be the best fighter.

Others are smarter, bigger, psychicer, better tacticians, nicer, sneakier, more creative etc etc but Russ was the hard bastard.

Let's look at what we know (or is inferred) about Primarch vs Primarch.

Three primarchs have been killed, all by other primarchs.

2 by Russ
1 by Fulgrim

Curze has a good record, having defeated Dorn, Vulkan, Corax, and the Lion in fights, but he was also beaten by Lion too IIRC

Russ also beat Magnus in a fight. Magnus could probably have beaten him if he'd used psychic powers though - but the most powerful psychic abilities need time and space to cast - sacrifices, rituals etc etc that so probably not that useful in a one on one.

Horus was scared of Sanguinius as he thought that S was the only one who could beat him (and everyone liked him better). Given that a weakened S was no match for chaos Horus, we can assume that Horus's fears were based on his pre-chaos strength. Perhaps S is a challenger to Russ?

Who won the legendary fight between Russ and Lion though?

Russ beat Angron in a fight too, I am sure.

I think its a daft question really, at the end of the day martial arts are too dependent on luck. Look at professional boxers, they regularly fight and win, then lose the rematch. Anything can happen, a lucky wayward punch, a slip or trip... I think you would probably pick 10-12 of them (the particularly martial ones) and say on any given day the one could beat the other.

Angron could conceivably beat Russ one day and lose the next, the fluff is so vast now there are tons of instances of them winning and losing to the other. The Angel beat Kurze then Kurze gave both Gulliman and the Angel a bit of a pasting. Gulliman did pretty well against both Angron and Lorgar and then got beat by a regular Space Marine, Russ got knocked out by the Angel and then snapped Magnus' back.

I won three fights during my boxing career and then lost cos I ducked into one and caught me right on the chin, the last bloke was definately weaker than at least two of the guys I beat earlier.

Fightin is messy business, I don't think you can ever say with a degree of certainty who is going to win a free-for all, and certainly not when you throw all of those insane powers into the mix.

Although, I suppose perpetual like Vulkan would technically outlast everyone.

If we're taking away major abilities like Magnus' psychic abilities we might as well go the whole hog and say Russ isn't allowed to use his rage or his axe. Sanguinius isn't allowed to use his wings, etc.

Horus is the best followed by Guilliman bow to your liege thinbloods.

I apologize, under the given parameters I think it would be next to impossible to rank the Primarch on martial ability, because I think the parameters artificially handicap certain ones over others. In an effort to post as close to what the OP wants I will ignore the given parameters and post a list based on what I think an accurate ranking would be. This is solely based on my knowledge of the Primarchs and their abilities. I put Horus first to represent is empowerment by chaos, and Magnus second because his sorcery powers (despite being unfairly outlawed by the OP) would allow him to probably incapacitate or kill most of the others given the opportunity. The following 4 are pinnacles of marital prowess in one form or another, and the remaining 12 are ranked based on my perception of them. I am in no way claiming this to be a canonically accurate list, this is just what I think based on my knowledge, interpretation, and if I am to be honest, personal wishes and bias. Please be kind.

1. Horus
2. Magnus the Red
3. Angron
4. Sanguinius
5. Lion El'Jonson
6. Leman Russ
7. Fulgrim
8. Mortarion
9. Konrad Curze
10. Corvus Corax
11. Jaghatai Khan
12. Roboute Guilliman
13. Rogal Dorn
14. Ferrus Manus
15. Alpharius Omegon
16. Vulkan
17. Perturabo
18. Lorgar

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

Do you actually believe that horse manure about the chink in the armor? That is...... less than likely. The heroic custodes as you put it is more like imperial propaganda to make every insignificant man out of trillions that sacrifices their life on the battlefield think that their individual sacrifice could amount to something. To further add there is also a fluff writing crediting that stupid chink in armor theory to Sanguinius. To humor the chink in armor idea lets say that for arguments sake the Emperor mightiest of men who smacks around the Chaos Gods keeping them at bay in the warp over 10,000 years after his actual demise through sheer willpower and manliness needed a chink in Horus' "armor" to beat him. This would mean that they would have to "chink" his daemonic protection not his physical armor. The Emperor blamed his soul not his body so breaking his armor doesn't amount to anything. That being said the Custodes or whatever would have to be a pretty powerful psyker and gotten Horus off guard which could never happen because he could psychically sense the custodes. The more likely answer being Sanguinius could have pulled off this "chink" but even still it is hardly likely the Emperor needed that. Fact is that the Emperor probably did want to save 1 of his 20 genetic demigod experiments that actually succeeded (also he had already lost 2 at this point) so he was testing to see if there was any hope for Horus. It is true that Horus probably would have demolished him had he let his guard down completely but in a "toe to toe" no holds barred match big E would have blamed Horus so fast and so hard that he would have never even existed. I don't deny this would have taken no less than his full power, but Horus couldn't win unless the man as stated above who still keeps the entire god damn warp at bay for the past 10,000 years wasn't as powerful as they say he is.

P.S.
The Emperor did do it that fast when ass wipe Horus was distracted by a Custodes or if you believe certain texts an imperial soldier (what an ass) thinking he had bested the greatest psyker period in single combat.

If we're talking the literal peak of their powers, Horus ranks 1 and Magnus 2, because at the peak of his powers, Horus had 4 Gods backing him up, as opposed to Magnus being able to draw off an absurdly large portion of the Warp which the Gods rule.






I would say Curze is a top 5 combatant though. He beat Corax with zero effort on Isstvan, brutalised Dorn and killed Vulkan multiple times.

@Yavva
#shrug.
Until GW finish the HH series or FW HH books we'll never know.
I certainly dont discount the possibility that Horus, backed by all 4 Chaos Gods and at the peak of his power could have stood toe to toe with the Emperor even if for a short time. And that the Emperor maybe did need that chink in the armor to vanquish him.
But you're welcome to disbelief it just as Im welcome to consider it

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

Do you actually believe that horse manure about the chink in the armor? That is...... less than likely. The heroic custodes as you put it is more like imperial propaganda to make every insignificant man out of trillions that sacrifices their life on the battlefield think that their individual sacrifice could amount to something. To further add there is also a fluff writing crediting that stupid chink in armor theory to Sanguinius. To humor the chink in armor idea lets say that for arguments sake the Emperor mightiest of men who smacks around the Chaos Gods keeping them at bay in the warp over 10,000 years after his actual demise through sheer willpower and manliness needed a chink in Horus' "armor" to beat him. This would mean that they would have to "chink" his daemonic protection not his physical armor. The Emperor blamed his soul not his body so breaking his armor doesn't amount to anything. That being said the Custodes or whatever would have to be a pretty powerful psyker and gotten Horus off guard which could never happen because he could psychically sense the custodes. The more likely answer being Sanguinius could have pulled off this "chink" but even still it is hardly likely the Emperor needed that. Fact is that the Emperor probably did want to save 1 of his 20 genetic demigod experiments that actually succeeded (also he had already lost 2 at this point) so he was testing to see if there was any hope for Horus. It is true that Horus probably would have demolished him had he let his guard down completely but in a "toe to toe" no holds barred match big E would have blamed Horus so fast and so hard that he would have never even existed. I don't deny this would have taken no less than his full power, but Horus couldn't win unless the man as stated above who still keeps the entire god damn warp at bay for the past 10,000 years wasn't as powerful as they say he is.

P.S.
The Emperor did do it that fast when ass wipe Horus was distracted by a Custodes or if you believe certain texts an imperial soldier (what an ass) thinking he had bested the greatest psyker period in single combat.

If you take the chink in the armour to mean that Custodes or the immortal guardsman, it could refer to a metaphorical chink where Horus' focus was distracted, allowing the Emperor to land the telling blow.

Can't remember which hh book it is (think it's scars) but aren't a bunch of primarchs sitting around a table having this exact same discussion?

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Can't remember which hh book it is (think it's scars) but aren't a bunch of primarchs sitting around a table having this exact same discussion?

were they passing a joint around too?

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

Do you actually believe that horse manure about the chink in the armor? That is...... less than likely. The heroic custodes as you put it is more like imperial propaganda to make every insignificant man out of trillions that sacrifices their life on the battlefield think that their individual sacrifice could amount to something. To further add there is also a fluff writing crediting that stupid chink in armor theory to Sanguinius. To humor the chink in armor idea lets say that for arguments sake the Emperor mightiest of men who smacks around the Chaos Gods keeping them at bay in the warp over 10,000 years after his actual demise through sheer willpower and manliness needed a chink in Horus' "armor" to beat him. This would mean that they would have to "chink" his daemonic protection not his physical armor. The Emperor blamed his soul not his body so breaking his armor doesn't amount to anything. That being said the Custodes or whatever would have to be a pretty powerful psyker and gotten Horus off guard which could never happen because he could psychically sense the custodes. The more likely answer being Sanguinius could have pulled off this "chink" but even still it is hardly likely the Emperor needed that. Fact is that the Emperor probably did want to save 1 of his 20 genetic demigod experiments that actually succeeded (also he had already lost 2 at this point) so he was testing to see if there was any hope for Horus. It is true that Horus probably would have demolished him had he let his guard down completely but in a "toe to toe" no holds barred match big E would have blamed Horus so fast and so hard that he would have never even existed. I don't deny this would have taken no less than his full power, but Horus couldn't win unless the man as stated above who still keeps the entire god damn warp at bay for the past 10,000 years wasn't as powerful as they say he is.

P.S.
The Emperor did do it that fast when ass wipe Horus was distracted by a Custodes or if you believe certain texts an imperial soldier (what an ass) thinking he had bested the greatest psyker period in single combat.

Also, the Emperor didn't even kill Horus with a physical attack. He blew him away with psychic mind bullets that completely bypass armor. No chink in armor is needed to simply destroy their soul.

but it does lead to the question, if he is capable of doing such things and truly was a diefic level creature, why did he need the legions and primarchs to begin with?

Because he couldn't be everywhere at once, and with the human webway, he couldn't lead the crusade, being too busy not telling his kids what he was doing and helping mankind with the project. Each primarch had a person, for example I've heard it mentioned Magnus was originally meant to stay on the Throne.

Out of curiosity, how powerful is Alpharius physically? There seems to be mention that he is the same size as regular marines to blend in. Would that mean he relies more on deception rather than direct application of force?

 Deadshot wrote:

I would say Curze is a top 5 combatant though. He beat Corax with zero effort on Isstvan, brutalised Dorn and killed Vulkan multiple times.

At the peak of his power, he also held his own against the Lion and Girlyman- simultaneously. I don't think another Primarch has done such a thing.

Keep in mind, though, Rowboat was nearly killed by ten Alpha Legionnaires. He clearly belongs in the bottom 5, at best.

Angron could conceivably beat Russ one day and lose the next, the fluff is so vast now there are tons of instances of them winning and losing to the other.

The only example of him meeting Russ I'm aware of is the Night of the Wolf, and whilst there are arguments in who won the battle (i.e. the fight between the two legions), there is no question who won the fight; Russ ended up face down in the mud looking for his teeth. If there's another example of the two squaring off I don't recall reading it.

Alpharius really isn't that great. A human swordsman (admittedly a Lucifer Black) was able to break through his guard in a fair fight. Granted, said sword-wound did virtually nothing and then Alpharius killed him, but it doesn't speak much for his skill with a blade on a scale of the Primarchs.

The 'chink in the armour' thing - the weakness in horus' armour (and yes, it's going to be more a 'psychic protection' thing than just a gap in the plates) was opened by Sangunius. The Intervening Custodes/Army Trooper didn't open the gap, instead doing two things: first, buying the Emperor a couple of seconds so Horus didn't finish him off (as he was being quite badly stabbed prior to this) and second, convincing him not to hold back anymore.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

I would say Curze is a top 5 combatant though. He beat Corax with zero effort on Isstvan, brutalised Dorn and killed Vulkan multiple times.

At the peak of his power, he also held his own against the Lion and Girlyman- simultaneously. I don't think another Primarch has done such a thing.

Keep in mind, though, Rowboat was nearly killed by ten Alpha Legionnaires. He clearly belongs in the bottom 5, at best.

And Polux was able to stand up against Curze and wound him, meaning that Polux is better than most Primarchs

As time has progressed i've begun to realise that there isn't really any teliing as to who is the best Primarch in fighting as a lot of it is down to writing and circumstance. In Savage Weapons Curze and the Lion fight, Curze getting the upper hand. In Prince of Crows Curze has been put into a coma by the Lion. In Unremebered Empire Curze is able to take on both the Lion and Guilliman, in Betrayer Guilliman is able to take on both Angron and Lorgar. So what does this mean if Angron is top tier? It's likely that Angron is the best combatant but I don't think that means he would win in every fight.

Circumstance, Guilliman was unarmoured and attacked in his own home. Dorn was assaulted unawares and unarmoured. Fulgrim was assaulted in a meeting by Perturabo. Was the fight between Angron and Russ a full blown duel, we know that Russ had a point to make so was he fighting to kill Angron. Fulgrim was beaten by Ferrus until the Daemon took over, is that a victory for Fulgrim or for the Daemon.

Corax reflects in Ravens Flight that only Horus and Sanguinius could beat Angron, but then in Deliverance Lost thinks that he isn't worried about Angron. He also says how he and Horus were evenly matched in their sparing matches. So if only Horus and Sanguinius can beat Angron, and Corax can hold his own with Horus, that must mean that he can also take on Angron. Do we also take confidence into account, Dorn goes out to take on Horus after Istvaan as does Russ, they don't seem too concerned that they won't be able to deal with Horus. Scars has been mentioned. I think it is Mortarion thinking on who would win in a sword fight between Sanguinius and Fulgrim, recognising that their skill is the best, but then the Khan says to Fulgrim that he will beat him. Do we take this as fact or just bravado?

Without a list of who faced who and who did what it's pretty difficult to determine who is the best fighter, we just do not have enough about their individual feats or reports on their prowess to really formulate any form of order. Sure we can use what we have, but it's not so straight forward, as Polux is the answer

locarno24 wrote:

Alpharius really isn't that great. A human swordsman (admittedly a Lucifer Black) was able to break through his guard in a fair fight. Granted, said sword-wound did virtually nothing and then Alpharius killed him, but it doesn't speak much for his skill with a blade on a scale of the Primarchs.

Was it Alpharius though or was it Ingo, Herzog or Sheed?

locarno24 wrote:

The 'chink in the armour' thing - the weakness in horus' armour (and yes, it's going to be more a 'psychic protection' thing than just a gap in the plates) was opened by Sangunius. The Intervening Custodes/Army Trooper didn't open the gap, instead doing two things: first, buying the Emperor a couple of seconds so Horus didn't finish him off (as he was being quite badly stabbed prior to this) and second, convincing him not to hold back anymore.

Well it could be either an actual chink in his armour or a chink in his psyche or both maybe

Fear to Tread: P443
And so again, in the halls of the Vengeful Spirit, as Sanguinius struck out at his brother, cutting a fearsome crack in the Warmaster's nigh impregnable armour. But it was not enough, and the Angel's great red blade broke.

The Outcast Dead: P443
Bloody tears on golden features, a necessary death, the most infinitesimal crack in the most impregnable armour.

And from 2nd Edition Wargear

The Death of Sanguinus

As he flew he spotted a damaged link of armour on the Warmaster's neck, and Sanguinius stabbed out with all his remaining strength. His blade lodged at once in the Warmaster's armour. Horus screamed more with anger than with pain, and reached out to strike the winged Primarch. Steel talons dripping with plasmic energy closed upon the winged Angel of Baal. According to some versions of the tale it was this wound that Sanguinius struck which opened a chink through the armour of Horus, enabling the Emperor to slay his enemy.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Out of curiosity, how powerful is Alpharius physically? There seems to be mention that he is the same size as regular marines to blend in. Would that mean he relies more on deception rather than direct application of force?

His discovery goes like this;

Horus flagship gets boarded by raiders whonsomehow managae to make it to the bridge. Horus turns and downs the first 4 with a single Bolt pistol shot each, but Alpharius dodges the rest, reaching Horus and then they all have a big laugh off because they realise rhey are the same.


As to whether he is weaker, doubt it. His rudles in HH are the closest we have to see him in a fight where he is generally on par, but overall he is a fierce strategist, not a fighter.



Girlyman did pretty decently in Betrayer. He was beating Lorgar (post-superpowering) before Angron jumped him and held his own against Angron for a good 3 or 4 pages whilst Angron was full on gakface crazy and in the process of hulking out into DP mode.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
At the peak of his power, he also held his own against the Lion and Girlyman- simultaneously. I don't think another Primarch has done such a thing.

Keep in mind, though, Rowboat was nearly killed by ten Alpha Legionnaires. He clearly belongs in the bottom 5, at best.

Curze held his own for a short while, and then cut the fight short with his grenades. That doesn't really prove very much (except that he is tricky and cunning). He'd previously lost against just the Lion, so in all likelihood he would have lost against both the Lion and Guilliman.

Similarly, Guilliman held his own for a while against Lorgar and Angron - he just didn't have the luxury of the fight ending prematurely before a winner could be called.

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Although in terms of shear damage, Magnus can probably kill everyone by doing something like dumping the planet they're currently on into the warp.

Magnus "lacks feats" for anything on that scale.

He doesn't, however, "lack feats" for getting his butt handed to him by a non-psychic Primarch, in spite of all his supposed might.

So either way he is clearly out of the running for the top spot.

Leman Russ has and uses psychic powers in combat, Magnus wasn't giving his all (Lorgar says as much), Magnus was fighting the entire Space Wolf Legion and not just Russ, and Magnus was still dominating Russ for most of the fight.

Magnus is far and away the most powerful Primarch, discounting Horus with the full backing of Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bassline wrote:
In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

Angron has already dominated Leman Russ in single combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


As far as pure combat potential goes, it's definitely Sanguinius in terms of raw power. I remember somebody calcing his flying speed in one book as hypersonic (based off the time it took him to fly the distance of a capital ship), meaning he's tossing hypersonic haymakers at people.

Normal Space Marines have the occasional book feat better than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daddyorchips wrote:

Russ beat Angron in a fight too, I am sure.

The opposite, actually.

A few minutes with Angron left Russ unable to walk unaided.

Angron ruled Russ because Russ was trying to keep him alive, Angron was trying to kill Russ. Big frakking difference.

Sanguinius was probably the best fighter amongst the Primarches until Horus got souped up.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Angron was trying to kill Russ.

There is no reason to assume this.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Angron was trying to kill Russ.

There is no reason to assume this.

That has been my impression of the fight.

I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

They were infused by Chaos by that time, and he broke the spine of of Magnus then Magnus got the favor from Tzeentch. So Russ is still awesome and still up there when it comes to fighting other primarches.

Also Russ could be controlled, not everyone of the primarches could be that. You have seen what happened to the sociopaths, they rebelled.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

Have you considered that the Emperor did not, in fact, make Russ the executioner?

The emperor never called Russ his executioner thats something russ appointed himself as. More likely he was send to get magnus ( not kill him that was horus his doing) because they knew he was loyal.

Angron had russ crawling before him and made no move to attack, it was also russ not angron wo attacked first in that fight. Nothing to indicate angron was out to kill, he was actualy suprisingly calm.

Magnus was fighting a whole legion and Tzeench planned for this outcome. He also wasn't commited to the fight.

Not to sound to much like hating on russ i do believe he is in the top half of primarchs, yust not at the top.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

Its explained in Prospero Burns. Whereas other legions might balk at the role, the SW know what needs to be done and their role, and take the role of the executioner because they are the ones who can, and so others don't have to basically.

Yes, it's more about the attitude of the Primarch and the legion. They are generals and commanders in charge of astonishing amounts of firepower; personal prowess counts for practically nothing. It doesn't matter whether Russ could kill Angron in personal combat, because he has battle barges that can do that from orbit if necessary. What matters is that, if he was given the order to do so, he wouldn't flinch or hesitate for even a second.

Even as a DA fanboy I can't help but point out that he dind't beat Russ fair and square; this is in the codex. They fight it out to a draw, at which point Russ gets a good laugh out of it, considers the fight over, and turns to walk away. At which point the Lion sucker punches him in a fit of angsty rage.

OP wanted us to include weapons IN ADDITION to psychic powers, not to the exclusion of them, but even so I'm not sure that Magnus' sorcery necessarily makes him the overall winner. Their respective abilities also all change over time. At the peak of their powers, though? It depends so much on the arena. If you just lock them one on one in a sealed chamber and have an ultimate cage match, oh man... I'd have to make a top three. Angron, Horus, and Sanguinius. Powerful weaponry can be just as good as sorcery in a one-on-one fight, and is sometimes more reliable. Russ is evenly matched with the Lion, and I don't see either as particular powerhouses of individual combat among other Primarchs; much of their value was in their leadership ability, whereas Sanguinius seems to be the most crazy OP of all the loyalists, Horus has insane amounts of Chaos power and was a good all-rounder before that(I mean, he was Warmaster), and Angron, well....

Angron.

In sheer skill with the blade? Id say Sanguinius or Fulgrim or maybe even Lion el Johnson come out on top.

In sheer power? Angron, Horus and Russ rival each other... But id go with Angron.. the bastard lifted a titan out of balance for christs sake...

Russ and Angron went at eachother once... Angron basically won the physical fight,.. while Russ took the moral victory...

But ill go with Sanguinius... because Horus felt insecure about him and Horus is bad.....ass

I know very little about the HH and the fluff of the IOM, BUT, it would seem that horus would win right? I mean this guy betrayed the entire IOM, and almost got away with it too if it wasn't for that meddling emperor.

He is empowered with the combined might of all the chaos gods, I might be wrong, so don't attack me pls.

Happy wargaming,

-Mikey

This is how this tourney ends: Horus(or Russ/Angron/whoever) stands victorious over his slain rival. Suddenly Corax srikes from the shadows, laying low the weary champion. Before he can take a moment to enjoy his victory Kurze slides his blades though this back, then tears out his throat. In the background Vulkan awakes, fully healed, and makes his way out of the arena while Kurze is distracted. Aplharius smiles as he watches the glory of what he orchestrated.

Amoras wrote:
The emperor never called Russ his executioner thats something russ appointed himself as. More likely he was send to get magnus ( not kill him that was horus his doing) because they knew he was loyal.

Angron had russ crawling before him and made no move to attack, it was also russ not angron wo attacked first in that fight. Nothing to indicate angron was out to kill, he was actualy suprisingly calm.

Magnus was fighting a whole legion and Tzeench planned for this outcome. He also wasn't commited to the fight.

Not to sound to much like hating on russ i do believe he is in the top half of primarchs, yust not at the top.

You also have to consider if some primarchs might be better at denying the witch than others. I get the impression that Khorne Supercharged Angron could ignore quite a few psychic attacks, as well as quasiKorne quasiPsyker sanguinus. I think that Magnus would have less of an advantage over them than say, Perturbo or Dorn or someone without any sort of magical defense whatsoever. Magnus is significant though as I feel he is the only one that could permanently kill Vulkan. Still I think it would be hard for him to get a good fix on and crush Sanguinus given his speed, precognition, and unparalleled fighting skills. I think in terms of feats he is the most impressive primarch. Especially if you consider him slaughtering his way through the Vengeful Spirit off the tail end of like 100 days of nonstop beatdown distributing where he was pwning deamon princes and greater demons left and right. To be that physically and spiritually exhausted and then still practically solo a freaking space hulk filled with power from ALL FOUR of the chaos gods is pretty baller.

1) Angron
2) Sanguinius
3) Horus
4)Lion El'Jonson
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Leman Russ
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Jaghatai Khan
9) Corvus Cora
10) Fulgrim
11) Mortarion
12) Ferrus Manus
13) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
14) Rogal Dorn
15) Roboute Guilliman
16) Perturabo
17) Alpharius Omegon
18) Lorgar

Best I could do sorry if wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with this "normal" space marine from ALPHA Legion could have been Omegon. So he was hurt but a primarch and 9 space marines.

 VulkanKiller wrote:
1) Angron
2) Sanguinius
3) Horus
4)Lion El'Jonson
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Leman Russ
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Corvus Cora
9) Fulgrim
10) Mortarion
11) Ferrus Manus
12) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
13) Alpharius Omegon

Spoiler:

( in truth this is 2 separate people and very sneaky think you are fighting one then the other half back stabs)

14) Jaghatai Khan
15) Rogal Dorn
16) Roboute Guilliman
17)Perturabo
18) Lorgar

Best I could do sorry if wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with this "normal" space marine from ALPHA Legion could have been Omegon. So he was hurt but a primarch and 9 space marines.

The Khan should be massively higher, and the Twins lower. Khan was an immense swordsman, and its a 1v1, Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

 Deadshot wrote:

 VulkanKiller wrote:
1) Angron
2) Sanguinius
3) Horus
4)Lion El'Jonson
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Leman Russ
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Corvus Cora
9) Fulgrim
10) Mortarion
11) Ferrus Manus
12) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
13) Alpharius Omegon

Spoiler:

( in truth this is 2 separate people and very sneaky think you are fighting one then the other half back stabs)

14) Jaghatai Khan
15) Rogal Dorn
16) Roboute Guilliman
17)Perturabo
18) Lorgar

Best I could do sorry if wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with this "normal" space marine from ALPHA Legion could have been Omegon. So he was hurt but a primarch and 9 space marines.

The Khan should be massively higher, and the Twins lower. Khan was an immense swordsman, and its a 1v1, Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

Sorry never read much about him but how higher I know little about him only all up to HH but that more of a general knowledg.

Initially I thought it would be Angron, but then I thought some more about it and came up with Sanguinius being the best fighter. He managed to defeat the best Bloodthirster Khorne had to offer and if he can defeat a raging monster like that, then he would have a good chance in defeating the reckless Angron with his skill and control. Plus if Sanguinius ever went into a berserk rage (it is hinted at in the Heresy books about him keeping it in check) then he would definitely give Angron a run for his money.

This is my order:

1.) Sanguinius
2.) Angron/Horus
3.) Russ/Lion
4.) Fulgrim
5.) Corax/Curze
6.) Jaghatai Khan

 Deadshot wrote:
Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

Not disagreeing with you Deadshot but do we know this for sure? Do we have many examples of Alpharius getting in a fight with one of his brothers other than ol' green eyes on Eskrador after the Heresy. New fluff means that it might not have even been Alpharius, also might not have been him on Namatjira's ship facing that Lucifer Black.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

Not disagreeing with you Deadshot but do we know this for sure? Do we have many examples of Alpharius getting in a fight with one of his brothers other than ol' green eyes on Eskrador after the Heresy. New fluff means that it might not have even been Alpharius, also might not have been him on Namatjira's ship facing that Lucifer Black.

Asides the fact we've never seen him fight another Primarch in a novel, the only things we have to go on are HH game stats, with I think have been pretty accurate in terms of their relation to fluff. Now, the only noted time Alpharius (maybe) fought another Primarch was against Guilliman where he maybe died. Assuming it was one of the Twins, and they did die, looking at other Primarchs to see RG's ranking. In Betrayer Guilliman was going well against powered up Lorgar but they werè evenly matched. Lorgar, even after powering up, was still pretty wimpy (Isstvaan he got beat with ease by Corax, most of his impressive feats are psychic feats). Angron beat Guilliman with ease. Guilliman would lose to any top 10 Primarch (Angron, Sang, Horus, Khan, Lion, Kurze, Russ, Fulgrim [which he did], Corax, Vulkan). Hence he must be at least 11 out of 17 or lower. Alpharius lost to him so he must be lower. Alpharius would likely lose to Mortarion, Dorn, Perturabo or Manus, as would Guilliman. By rough estimates that puts Guilliman and Lorgar joint 16, and Alpharius therefore dead last at 17. Note I'm excluding Magnus as he is a special case.

Now, even if it wasn't Alpharius that Guilliman fought, Alpharius obviously knew he wouldn't beat Guilliman so organised a dummy.



Now, going to HH stats, Guilliman's leaks put his as nothing special, and Alpharius is likewise more tactically advanced rather than melee like Angron is (WS9, can challenge any number of characters at once)

Your reasoning is sound, I just don't think that there is enough out there to pigeonhole Primarchs into an order when there's other things to take into consideration that could affect their standing. But if I were to place Alpharius it's likely that I would put him to the lower end myself as well, due to the lack of detail and the 'not really a fight 'with Guilliman.

I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Fulgrim has the highest Primarch kill-count (Kurze only sort of counts as 1), but neither were fair, given that he was powered up by the Laeran Blade and in Daemon form.

Didn't Kurze have a good go at Vulkan and Corax as well?

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't Kurze have a good go at Vulkan and Corax as well?

He killed Vulkan, yeah, but Vulkan was tied up. It wasn't a fight. I don't count the numerous respawn kills either.

He didn't kill Corax either. In First Heretic;

Taffy17 wrote:

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

From what we know Curze likely surprise attacked Dorn. He may even have been armed (or he had really sharp nails). Considering the lack of information on the situation I do not believe it should be used as evidence.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

From what we know Curze likely surprise attacked Dorn. He may even have been armed (or he had really sharp nails). Considering the lack of information on the situation I do not believe it should be used as evidence.

I haven't read enough to be an expert, I just feel like Kurze has and would have a go at anyone without remorse and do pretty well

Taffy17 wrote:
I haven't read enough to be an expert, I just feel like Kurze has and would have a go at anyone without remorse and do pretty well

Thing is if we're going to try to compare the Primarchs they have to both be willing to go all the way (or both have the same psychological limitations). Otherwise one is being handicapped.

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Curze for all his combat prowess could not take down the Lion. I would put the Lion and Russ ahead of him. Of course, Curze is definitely in that top group, the man is/was just amazing

 Slaphead wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Curze for all his combat prowess could not take down the Lion. I would put the Lion and Russ ahead of him. Of course, Curze is definitely in that top group, the man is/was just amazing

Except for that time he totally did take down Lion-o. He would have killed him had he not been literally stabbed in the back.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Curze for all his combat prowess could not take down the Lion. I would put the Lion and Russ ahead of him. Of course, Curze is definitely in that top group, the man is/was just amazing

Except for that time he totally did take down Lion-o. He would have killed him had he not been literally stabbed in the back.

The whole Curze/Lion thing is a good representative of a major problem with the HH series. Too many writers, with too many different visions leads to hell in trying to sort out all the directly opposing statements and facts.

It's a real pain.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

Except for that time he totally did take down Lion-o. He would have killed him had he not been literally stabbed in the back.

In fairness the author of that scene did say that he didn't mean for people to view the battle as basically over with Curze undoubtedly winning. It was supposed to be more of a one gaining the advantage, then the other does, winner undetermined style thing.

I personally think Lion El Jonson is the best fighter (but I do play Dark Angels). Although he did trade blows with Russ for 3 days with neither side backing down and he knocked Russ the hell out when Russ decided to forget the fight (which he started throwing a tantrum) and start laughing! So bing bam boom the lion!!!

Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

I am no expert...but I do have a few things to say, During the battle on Prospero, there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus. As for Vulkan being low on the list, an unarmored, brutally tortured and Psychically assaulted Vulkan, wielding nothing but his hammer beat Konard (night lords guy) who was in full gear. As a guy said earlier, Immortality is the best tool and out of the Primarchs, only Vulkan had it.

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus.

The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus.

The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Apparently he had soon sort of lantent psyker power that manifested as a psychichm-dampening howl. Basically, he howls and shuts down powers briefly. Not sure where it came from, can't remember from reading Prospero Burns all those years ago. Perhaps its any the SW codex anti-psyker stuff+rumours and stuff?

When Russ turned up he had the power of Fenris behind him, all stormy, storm frost stuff. Sounds alot like how rune priests and the scars use their powers. Or not powers, what ever they call them.
Khan thought he could take Fulgrim because he was a peacock, which was enough to piss Fulgrim off. He got a admirably draw with Morty.
But Its got to be Sangy for the win, The only one that could go toe to toe with all, enough so the traitors thought they needed a daemon Angron to deal with him, or horus needed him out of the picture.

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

While technically true Luther was being greatly empowered by the Ruinous Powers. He'd have killed any other first captain in seconds. Any non-psyker Marine, too.

thenoobbomb wrote:The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Russ' scream was capable of outright killing Thousand Sons using their powers if I recall correctly. Naturally it had much less of an effect on Magnus himself. Magnus was however also causing damage to the rest of the Space Wolves whilst fighting Leman Russ.

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
I am no expert...but I do have a few things to say, During the battle on Prospero, there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus. As for Vulkan being low on the list, an unarmored, brutally tortured and Psychically assaulted Vulkan, wielding nothing but his hammer beat Konard (night lords guy) who was in full gear. As a guy said earlier, Immortality is the best tool and out of the Primarchs, only Vulkan had it.

If by "beat him" you mean "ran like a bitch using a teleporter" then yes, Vulkan beat Konrad.

No, by beat I mean kicked his ass then teleported away.

I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

 Naberiel wrote:
I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

Yeah, but there's only 2 ways to do that. The Emperor psycho-fethed Horus so bad his soul was eviscerated. And the lfulgarite the Cabal gave to another perpetual, who removed his own Perpetual status to save Vulkan.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Naberiel wrote:
I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

Yeah, but there's only 2 ways to do that. The Emperor psycho-fethed Horus so bad his soul was eviscerated. And the lfulgarite the Cabal gave to another perpetual, who removed his own Perpetual status to save Vulkan.

Nope, DE can capture and kill souls too and i am pretty sure that necrons and eldars can too..

 Naberiel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Naberiel wrote:
I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

Yeah, but there's only 2 ways to do that. The Emperor psycho-fethed Horus so bad his soul was eviscerated. And the lfulgarite the Cabal gave to another perpetual, who removed his own Perpetual status to save Vulkan.

Nope, DE can capture and kill souls too and i am pretty sure that necrons and eldars can too..

But would that remove Perpetual status though? The Cabal made a pretty huge deal of Grammaticus having to either save or kill Vulkan. Having never seen a perpetual be slain, its possible only the Fulgarite can do it (permanently) or Psycho-fething.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
In sheer skill with the blade? Id say Sanguinius or Fulgrim or maybe even Lion el Johnson come out on top.

In sheer power? Angron, Horus and Russ rival each other... But id go with Angron.. the bastard lifted a titan out of balance for christs sake...

Russ and Angron went at eachother once... Angron basically won the physical fight,.. while Russ took the moral victory...

But ill go with Sanguinius... because Horus felt insecure about him and Horus is bad.....ass

in what book does it mention angron lifted a titan out of balanace? Im asking for knowledge sake

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
In sheer skill with the blade? Id say Sanguinius or Fulgrim or maybe even Lion el Johnson come out on top.

In sheer power? Angron, Horus and Russ rival each other... But id go with Angron.. the bastard lifted a titan out of balance for christs sake...

Russ and Angron went at eachother once... Angron basically won the physical fight,.. while Russ took the moral victory...

But ill go with Sanguinius... because Horus felt insecure about him and Horus is bad.....ass

in what book does it mention angron lifted a titan out of balanace? Im asking for knowledge sake

Betrayer by ADB. Great read too, got a signed copy and mine at least has the odd illustration.

 Ratius wrote:
At peak of powers, Horus.
Theres just no debate on that.

Usually when people say there is no debate there are people who can find one


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

While technically true Luther was being greatly empowered by the Ruinous Powers. He'd have killed any other first captain in seconds. Any non-psyker Marine, too.

thenoobbomb wrote:The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Russ' scream was capable of outright killing Thousand Sons using their powers if I recall correctly. Naturally it had much less of an effect on Magnus himself. Magnus was however also causing damage to the rest of the Space Wolves whilst fighting Leman Russ.

You recall incorrectly. It just hurt their head for a second


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

While technically true Luther was being greatly empowered by the Ruinous Powers. He'd have killed any other first captain in seconds. Any non-psyker Marine, too.

thenoobbomb wrote:The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Russ' scream was capable of outright killing Thousand Sons using their powers if I recall correctly. Naturally it had much less of an effect on Magnus himself. Magnus was however also causing damage to the rest of the Space Wolves whilst fighting Leman Russ.

You recall incorrectly. It just hurt their head for a second. It wasn't a blank thing though it was called "a psychic scream" more implying he was a latent psyker

Vulkan wins hands down. Because perpetual, and ridiculous strength.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Vulkan wins hands down. Because perpetual, and ridiculous strength.

Chaos Gods can do anything. His perpetuality can be stripped by things, and he'd never beat a superpowered Horus, who is undoubtedly the top of the food chain when God-powered. Horus just keeps crushing him over and over. Locks him up like Curze did. Sets him adrift in the void to eternally decompress and regenerate. Jettisen him into a star so that his cells disintegrate faster than they can regenerate, or else he spawns outside the star and gets dragged back in to be vaporised by gravity. Get an Alpha+ psyker to be possessed by a Daemon and evaporate his soul like Emperor did to Horus. Vulkan could never win.

Maybe he could last long enough for someone else to show up to double team Horus, or he could maybe somehow catch Horus off guard after he newly regenerates and get a cheap shot? Unlikely, yes, but there could be a chance. In a 1v1 fight thpugh, powered up Horus could ruin Vulkan again and again. Although this has gotten me thinking, a perpetual sounds like Khorne's best friend, infinite skulls from just one guy.

To paraphrase Stan Lee, why ask such questions? The answer is... Whoever the author wants to win wins! If it's a Vulkan title the writer figures out a clever way for Vulkan to win. If it's a Horus title the big H goes all God Mode and crushes Vulkan.

Simple, no?

 VulkanKiller wrote:
1) Angron
2) Russ - tie for 2-4
3) Lion El'Jonson - tie for 2-4
4) Sanguinius - tie for 2-4
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Horus
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Jaghatai Khan
9) Corvus Cora
10) Fulgrim
11) Mortarion
12) Ferrus Manus
13) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
14) Rogal Dorn
15) Roboute Guilliman
16) Perturabo
17) Alpharius Omegon
18) Lorgar

Somewhere there is a passage talking about who should be warmaster (this is from a LONG time ago and my memory might be fuzzy.) It mentions that Horus is not the greatest combatant or tactician but is the best combination of all 3 categories (combat skill, tactics and leadership/personality.) It was noted directly that the Lion was better than Horus in combat skill and tactics but failed in leadership/personality. It was also noted that Russ and Sanguinius were roughly similar levels in combat skill.

The writer of the fight between curze and the lion has stated that the fight was intended as a draw. In the beginning of that fight, the lion was toying with curze and did have the fight under control. During the wrestling match (2nd part of this fight,) they were tied and the final part of the fight had curze catching up on points for the match.

I find it interesting how people keep using the russ vs angron fight as a measure of russ's skill. It was not, Russ was sent to show angron how fighting like a solo gladiator would put him at risk. Russ could not show him that lesson if he won the fight. Angron beat the crap out of russ, but russ didnt fight to his full ability. As such it shouldnt count against russ's fight history. (Do you honestly think that Russ's body guard that were sitting around them would let angron seriously mess Russ up if they hadnt been told to?)


EDITS: Lots of little edits on typos and stuff

You honestly believe any non-primarch could have stopped Angron in full "Angron Smash" mode? Russ's bodyguards would have made little difference.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
You honestly believe any non-primarch could have stopped Angron in full "Angron Smash" mode? Russ's bodyguards would have made little difference.

Doesn't matter. Space Marines are a special breed. They know they'd die in the attempt but it would not under any circumstances stop them trying to parry away Angron's attack if it meant Russ would live a moment longer.

Primarch power levels is a funny thing, because there's no official "power level" we can go on. One thing is the books, in which the power of the individual primarchs can be skewered to make them stand out as dramatic as possible, another thing is that each Primarch has his own strengths. I remember that Lorgar could keep Guilliman on his toes on Calth, because of his longer-ranged mace, where Roboute had shortranged weapons like the Fist and a Shortsword.

Anyway, my list - I'm not thinking about empowered version of the individual primarchs, but their Great Crusade apperances. No Chaos steroids here, only close combat fighting, including tricks and gadgets to help you win:

1) Angron
2) Horus
3) Leman Russ
4) Lion El'Jonson
5) Fulgrim
6) Sanguinius
7) Rogal Dorn
8) Jaghatai Khan
9) Konrad Curze
10) Roboute Guilliman
11) Corvus Corax
12) Vulkan
13) Perturabo
14) Ferrus Manus
15) Mortarion
16) Alpharius Omegon
17) Lorgar
18) Magnus the Red

The Primarchs were all great warriors, and I think ultimately anyone of them would have a chance of besting any other in a fight, especially given the right circumstances.
Nonetheless, it is clear some were regarded as better fighters than others, and based upon reputation and accomplishments during the Crusade and Heresy I think it is possible to make a ranging.
Here is my opinion on Primarch fighting strenght:

Greatest fighters:
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ

Great fighters:
3. Sanguinius
4. Fulgrim
5. Lion El'Johnson
6. Konrad Curze

Good fighters:
7. Horus (before corruption)
8. Perturabo
9. Roboute Guilliman
10. Corvus Corax
11. Rogal Dorn
12. Vulkan
13. Mortarion

Meh fighters
14. Ferrus Manus
15. Magnus
16. Lorgar

Unrankable
Horus (when powered by Chaos)
Jagathai Khan (anyone know anything about him?)
Alpharius Omegon (same as the Khan)

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Primarchs were all great warriors, and I think ultimately anyone of them would have a chance of besting any other in a fight, especially given the right circumstances.
Nonetheless, it is clear some were regarded as better fighters than others, and based upon reputation and accomplishments during the Crusade and Heresy I think it is possible to make a ranging.
Here is my opinion on Primarch fighting strenght:

Greatest fighters:
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ

Great fighters:
3. Sanguinius
4. Fulgrim
5. Lion El'Johnson
6. Konrad Curze

Good fighters:
7. Horus (before corruption)
8. Perturabo
9. Roboute Guilliman
10. Corvus Corax
11. Rogal Dorn
12. Vulkan
13. Mortarion

Meh fighters
14. Ferrus Manus
15. Magnus
16. Lorgar

Unrankable
Horus (when powered by Chaos)
Jagathai Khan (anyone know anything about him?)
Alpharius Omegon (same as the Khan)

Well Sanguinius should be in the top 2 by this list. The Primarchs widely agreed that Sanguinius would be the only one able to go toe to toe with Angron. Leman Russ is good but he's not top 2. Put him top 3 if you like.

Ferrus Manus was a great fighter too. That hammer of his was lethal and he was a raging train of detruction, who lost to Fulgrim because as you say, Fulgrim is a great swordsman.

Lorgar was actually pretty good in Betrayer. He's not shown fighting much. But as the guy above you mentioned, he was capable enough to use his long morning star to keep distance and momentum, so he's at less capable.

Khan was also a great swordsman I hear, but like you said not much to say about him.

Otherwise looks alright.

 Deadshot wrote:

Ferrus Manus was a great fighter too. That hammer of his was lethal and he was a raging train of detruction, who lost to Fulgrim because as you say, Fulgrim is a great swordsman.

The first time Mannus and Fulgrim fought Fulgrim won. The second time Manus was winning until the Daemon with the sword Fulgrim was wielding added to Fulgrim's strength. Which adds support to the "depends on the situation, mindset, luck or what have you" theory.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Ferrus Manus was a great fighter too. That hammer of his was lethal and he was a raging train of detruction, who lost to Fulgrim because as you say, Fulgrim is a great swordsman.

The first time Mannus and Fulgrim fought Fulgrim won. The second time Manus was winning until the Daemon with the sword Fulgrim was wielding added to Fulgrim's strength. Which adds support to the "depends on the situation, mindset, luck or what have you" theory.

I'll have to check that. I remember that Fulgrim won and then realized that he'd beat his best friend, hesitated, then the demon took over and pushed him over the edge.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Ferrus Manus was a great fighter too. That hammer of his was lethal and he was a raging train of detruction, who lost to Fulgrim because as you say, Fulgrim is a great swordsman.

The first time Mannus and Fulgrim fought Fulgrim won. The second time Manus was winning until the Daemon with the sword Fulgrim was wielding added to Fulgrim's strength. Which adds support to the "depends on the situation, mindset, luck or what have you" theory.

To be fair though, Manus wasn't completely aware of the situation th first time. He was just annoyed and disgusted with thoughts of betrayal, but he wasn't trying to kill Fulgrim. In the second fight Manus wasn't holding back, he was out for blood, and he did much better. You also have to take into account that Fulgrim was wielding Fireblade the first fight, and Forgebreaker the second. Fulgrim is an amazing swordsman, but evidently not as good with other weapons, even Forgebreaker. The novel, Fulgrim, has a line which says something similar "The warhammer felt good in his hands, like it was made for him and only him, which it was of course."

So basically, give them both the weapon they made for their own use, Forgebreaker to Fulgrim and Fireblade to Manus, and put both on even ground (trying to kill) and Ferrus wins.
Give Fulgrim a sword, either the Laeran Blade or Fireblade, and he wins.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Primarchs were all great warriors, and I think ultimately anyone of them would have a chance of besting any other in a fight, especially given the right circumstances.
Nonetheless, it is clear some were regarded as better fighters than others, and based upon reputation and accomplishments during the Crusade and Heresy I think it is possible to make a ranging.
Here is my opinion on Primarch fighting strenght:

Greatest fighters:
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ

Great fighters:
3. Sanguinius
4. Fulgrim
5. Lion El'Johnson
6. Konrad Curze

Good fighters:
7. Horus (before corruption)
8. Perturabo
9. Roboute Guilliman
10. Corvus Corax
11. Rogal Dorn
12. Vulkan
13. Mortarion

Meh fighters
14. Ferrus Manus
15. Magnus
16. Lorgar

Unrankable
Horus (when powered by Chaos)
Jagathai Khan (anyone know anything about him?)
Alpharius Omegon (same as the Khan)

Well Sanguinius should be in the top 2 by this list. The Primarchs widely agreed that Sanguinius would be the only one able to go toe to toe with Angron. Leman Russ is good but he's not top 2. Put him top 3 if you like.

Ferrus Manus was a great fighter too. That hammer of his was lethal and he was a raging train of detruction, who lost to Fulgrim because as you say, Fulgrim is a great swordsman.

Lorgar was actually pretty good in Betrayer. He's not shown fighting much. But as the guy above you mentioned, he was capable enough to use his long morning star to keep distance and momentum, so he's at less capable.

Khan was also a great swordsman I hear, but like you said not much to say about him.

Otherwise looks alright.

Leman Russ was the only Primarch that actually went toe to toe with Angron, and came out alive, so that is why I put him on 2 rather than Sanguinius. Sanguinius may be better than Russ, but apart from Ka'Bandha, I don't recall Sanguinius actually fighting any noteworthy foes.
Ferrus Manus is so low because he literally and figuratively lost his head in a duel with another primarch. He is very strong, but his emotions negatively impact his fighting ability.
Lorgar is a great fighter too, but when compared to the other Primarchs, he is probably the worst. Someone has to be in that last place.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Leman Russ was the only Primarch that actually went toe to toe with Angron, and came out alive, so that is why I put him on 2 rather than Sanguinius.

"Went toe to toe"? He got beat, and then he got saved by his legion. Just like Roboute Guilliman did. Although he was actually fighting two primarchs at once for a while there, so arguably his feat was more impressive.