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Taffy17 wrote:
I haven't read enough to be an expert, I just feel like Kurze has and would have a go at anyone without remorse and do pretty well

Thing is if we're going to try to compare the Primarchs they have to both be willing to go all the way (or both have the same psychological limitations). Otherwise one is being handicapped.

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Curze for all his combat prowess could not take down the Lion. I would put the Lion and Russ ahead of him. Of course, Curze is definitely in that top group, the man is/was just amazing

 Slaphead wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Curze for all his combat prowess could not take down the Lion. I would put the Lion and Russ ahead of him. Of course, Curze is definitely in that top group, the man is/was just amazing

Except for that time he totally did take down Lion-o. He would have killed him had he not been literally stabbed in the back.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Curze for all his combat prowess could not take down the Lion. I would put the Lion and Russ ahead of him. Of course, Curze is definitely in that top group, the man is/was just amazing

Except for that time he totally did take down Lion-o. He would have killed him had he not been literally stabbed in the back.

The whole Curze/Lion thing is a good representative of a major problem with the HH series. Too many writers, with too many different visions leads to hell in trying to sort out all the directly opposing statements and facts.

It's a real pain.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

Except for that time he totally did take down Lion-o. He would have killed him had he not been literally stabbed in the back.

In fairness the author of that scene did say that he didn't mean for people to view the battle as basically over with Curze undoubtedly winning. It was supposed to be more of a one gaining the advantage, then the other does, winner undetermined style thing.

I personally think Lion El Jonson is the best fighter (but I do play Dark Angels). Although he did trade blows with Russ for 3 days with neither side backing down and he knocked Russ the hell out when Russ decided to forget the fight (which he started throwing a tantrum) and start laughing! So bing bam boom the lion!!!

Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

I am no expert...but I do have a few things to say, During the battle on Prospero, there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus. As for Vulkan being low on the list, an unarmored, brutally tortured and Psychically assaulted Vulkan, wielding nothing but his hammer beat Konard (night lords guy) who was in full gear. As a guy said earlier, Immortality is the best tool and out of the Primarchs, only Vulkan had it.

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus.

The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus.

The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Apparently he had soon sort of lantent psyker power that manifested as a psychichm-dampening howl. Basically, he howls and shuts down powers briefly. Not sure where it came from, can't remember from reading Prospero Burns all those years ago. Perhaps its any the SW codex anti-psyker stuff+rumours and stuff?

When Russ turned up he had the power of Fenris behind him, all stormy, storm frost stuff. Sounds alot like how rune priests and the scars use their powers. Or not powers, what ever they call them.
Khan thought he could take Fulgrim because he was a peacock, which was enough to piss Fulgrim off. He got a admirably draw with Morty.
But Its got to be Sangy for the win, The only one that could go toe to toe with all, enough so the traitors thought they needed a daemon Angron to deal with him, or horus needed him out of the picture.

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

While technically true Luther was being greatly empowered by the Ruinous Powers. He'd have killed any other first captain in seconds. Any non-psyker Marine, too.

thenoobbomb wrote:The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Russ' scream was capable of outright killing Thousand Sons using their powers if I recall correctly. Naturally it had much less of an effect on Magnus himself. Magnus was however also causing damage to the rest of the Space Wolves whilst fighting Leman Russ.

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
I am no expert...but I do have a few things to say, During the battle on Prospero, there was an army of female people (sorry don't remember their names) who dampened all the Thousand Son's Pychic Powers. That plus Russ's psyker dampening power = not much fun for Magnus. As for Vulkan being low on the list, an unarmored, brutally tortured and Psychically assaulted Vulkan, wielding nothing but his hammer beat Konard (night lords guy) who was in full gear. As a guy said earlier, Immortality is the best tool and out of the Primarchs, only Vulkan had it.

If by "beat him" you mean "ran like a bitch using a teleporter" then yes, Vulkan beat Konrad.

No, by beat I mean kicked his ass then teleported away.

I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

 Naberiel wrote:
I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

Yeah, but there's only 2 ways to do that. The Emperor psycho-fethed Horus so bad his soul was eviscerated. And the lfulgarite the Cabal gave to another perpetual, who removed his own Perpetual status to save Vulkan.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Naberiel wrote:
I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

Yeah, but there's only 2 ways to do that. The Emperor psycho-fethed Horus so bad his soul was eviscerated. And the lfulgarite the Cabal gave to another perpetual, who removed his own Perpetual status to save Vulkan.

Nope, DE can capture and kill souls too and i am pretty sure that necrons and eldars can too..

 Naberiel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Naberiel wrote:
I could be wrong, but to be perpetual is not to be immortal, he regenerates the body, but if you "destroy" his soul then he dies.

Yeah, but there's only 2 ways to do that. The Emperor psycho-fethed Horus so bad his soul was eviscerated. And the lfulgarite the Cabal gave to another perpetual, who removed his own Perpetual status to save Vulkan.

Nope, DE can capture and kill souls too and i am pretty sure that necrons and eldars can too..

But would that remove Perpetual status though? The Cabal made a pretty huge deal of Grammaticus having to either save or kill Vulkan. Having never seen a perpetual be slain, its possible only the Fulgarite can do it (permanently) or Psycho-fething.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
In sheer skill with the blade? Id say Sanguinius or Fulgrim or maybe even Lion el Johnson come out on top.

In sheer power? Angron, Horus and Russ rival each other... But id go with Angron.. the bastard lifted a titan out of balance for christs sake...

Russ and Angron went at eachother once... Angron basically won the physical fight,.. while Russ took the moral victory...

But ill go with Sanguinius... because Horus felt insecure about him and Horus is bad.....ass

in what book does it mention angron lifted a titan out of balanace? Im asking for knowledge sake

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
In sheer skill with the blade? Id say Sanguinius or Fulgrim or maybe even Lion el Johnson come out on top.

In sheer power? Angron, Horus and Russ rival each other... But id go with Angron.. the bastard lifted a titan out of balance for christs sake...

Russ and Angron went at eachother once... Angron basically won the physical fight,.. while Russ took the moral victory...

But ill go with Sanguinius... because Horus felt insecure about him and Horus is bad.....ass

in what book does it mention angron lifted a titan out of balanace? Im asking for knowledge sake

Betrayer by ADB. Great read too, got a signed copy and mine at least has the odd illustration.

 Ratius wrote:
At peak of powers, Horus.
Theres just no debate on that.

Usually when people say there is no debate there are people who can find one


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

While technically true Luther was being greatly empowered by the Ruinous Powers. He'd have killed any other first captain in seconds. Any non-psyker Marine, too.

thenoobbomb wrote:The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Russ' scream was capable of outright killing Thousand Sons using their powers if I recall correctly. Naturally it had much less of an effect on Magnus himself. Magnus was however also causing damage to the rest of the Space Wolves whilst fighting Leman Russ.

You recall incorrectly. It just hurt their head for a second


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't the Lion have a hard time defeating his own first captain though? I mean first captains are good but they're not primarchs

While technically true Luther was being greatly empowered by the Ruinous Powers. He'd have killed any other first captain in seconds. Any non-psyker Marine, too.

thenoobbomb wrote:The Sisters of Silence. Never heard of Russ being a blank, where do you get that from?

Russ' scream was capable of outright killing Thousand Sons using their powers if I recall correctly. Naturally it had much less of an effect on Magnus himself. Magnus was however also causing damage to the rest of the Space Wolves whilst fighting Leman Russ.

You recall incorrectly. It just hurt their head for a second. It wasn't a blank thing though it was called "a psychic scream" more implying he was a latent psyker

Vulkan wins hands down. Because perpetual, and ridiculous strength.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Vulkan wins hands down. Because perpetual, and ridiculous strength.

Chaos Gods can do anything. His perpetuality can be stripped by things, and he'd never beat a superpowered Horus, who is undoubtedly the top of the food chain when God-powered. Horus just keeps crushing him over and over. Locks him up like Curze did. Sets him adrift in the void to eternally decompress and regenerate. Jettisen him into a star so that his cells disintegrate faster than they can regenerate, or else he spawns outside the star and gets dragged back in to be vaporised by gravity. Get an Alpha+ psyker to be possessed by a Daemon and evaporate his soul like Emperor did to Horus. Vulkan could never win.

Maybe he could last long enough for someone else to show up to double team Horus, or he could maybe somehow catch Horus off guard after he newly regenerates and get a cheap shot? Unlikely, yes, but there could be a chance. In a 1v1 fight thpugh, powered up Horus could ruin Vulkan again and again. Although this has gotten me thinking, a perpetual sounds like Khorne's best friend, infinite skulls from just one guy.

To paraphrase Stan Lee, why ask such questions? The answer is... Whoever the author wants to win wins! If it's a Vulkan title the writer figures out a clever way for Vulkan to win. If it's a Horus title the big H goes all God Mode and crushes Vulkan.

Simple, no?

 VulkanKiller wrote:
1) Angron
2) Russ - tie for 2-4
3) Lion El'Jonson - tie for 2-4
4) Sanguinius - tie for 2-4
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Horus
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Jaghatai Khan
9) Corvus Cora
10) Fulgrim
11) Mortarion
12) Ferrus Manus
13) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
14) Rogal Dorn
15) Roboute Guilliman
16) Perturabo
17) Alpharius Omegon
18) Lorgar

Somewhere there is a passage talking about who should be warmaster (this is from a LONG time ago and my memory might be fuzzy.) It mentions that Horus is not the greatest combatant or tactician but is the best combination of all 3 categories (combat skill, tactics and leadership/personality.) It was noted directly that the Lion was better than Horus in combat skill and tactics but failed in leadership/personality. It was also noted that Russ and Sanguinius were roughly similar levels in combat skill.

The writer of the fight between curze and the lion has stated that the fight was intended as a draw. In the beginning of that fight, the lion was toying with curze and did have the fight under control. During the wrestling match (2nd part of this fight,) they were tied and the final part of the fight had curze catching up on points for the match.

I find it interesting how people keep using the russ vs angron fight as a measure of russ's skill. It was not, Russ was sent to show angron how fighting like a solo gladiator would put him at risk. Russ could not show him that lesson if he won the fight. Angron beat the crap out of russ, but russ didnt fight to his full ability. As such it shouldnt count against russ's fight history. (Do you honestly think that Russ's body guard that were sitting around them would let angron seriously mess Russ up if they hadnt been told to?)


EDITS: Lots of little edits on typos and stuff

You honestly believe any non-primarch could have stopped Angron in full "Angron Smash" mode? Russ's bodyguards would have made little difference.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
You honestly believe any non-primarch could have stopped Angron in full "Angron Smash" mode? Russ's bodyguards would have made little difference.

Doesn't matter. Space Marines are a special breed. They know they'd die in the attempt but it would not under any circumstances stop them trying to parry away Angron's attack if it meant Russ would live a moment longer.

Primarch power levels is a funny thing, because there's no official "power level" we can go on. One thing is the books, in which the power of the individual primarchs can be skewered to make them stand out as dramatic as possible, another thing is that each Primarch has his own strengths. I remember that Lorgar could keep Guilliman on his toes on Calth, because of his longer-ranged mace, where Roboute had shortranged weapons like the Fist and a Shortsword.

Anyway, my list - I'm not thinking about empowered version of the individual primarchs, but their Great Crusade apperances. No Chaos steroids here, only close combat fighting, including tricks and gadgets to help you win:

1) Angron
2) Horus
3) Leman Russ
4) Lion El'Jonson
5) Fulgrim
6) Sanguinius
7) Rogal Dorn
8) Jaghatai Khan
9) Konrad Curze
10) Roboute Guilliman
11) Corvus Corax
12) Vulkan
13) Perturabo
14) Ferrus Manus
15) Mortarion
16) Alpharius Omegon
17) Lorgar
18) Magnus the Red

The Primarchs were all great warriors, and I think ultimately anyone of them would have a chance of besting any other in a fight, especially given the right circumstances.
Nonetheless, it is clear some were regarded as better fighters than others, and based upon reputation and accomplishments during the Crusade and Heresy I think it is possible to make a ranging.
Here is my opinion on Primarch fighting strenght:

Greatest fighters:
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ

Great fighters:
3. Sanguinius
4. Fulgrim
5. Lion El'Johnson
6. Konrad Curze

Good fighters:
7. Horus (before corruption)
8. Perturabo
9. Roboute Guilliman
10. Corvus Corax
11. Rogal Dorn
12. Vulkan
13. Mortarion

Meh fighters
14. Ferrus Manus
15. Magnus
16. Lorgar

Unrankable
Horus (when powered by Chaos)
Jagathai Khan (anyone know anything about him?)
Alpharius Omegon (same as the Khan)