Everyone complained about white scar bikes when they came out, particularly with grav. A grav biker is 36 points. An eldar scatbike is 27 points and is every bit as good.
In all honesty windrider units are one of the best troop units in the game right now. They are both extremely fast and damaging. However what many in the online community are not seeing or saying is that they are on the high end for pts cost for troops, have poor durability and morale (they are extremely easy to kill enough for a morale check and then they run 3d6"), they get no extreme MSU ObjSec option like IG or SM both have, and they don't have any assured alpha or beta strike ability (ie SM have an assured alpha strike for drop pod marines). They are perhaps undercosted but I like that GW are actually trying to make troops something other than a tax or grunts to hide in reserves until the spend a single turn alive on an objective.
As for the massive panic attack the online community had... They are not worth even a tenth of the whining from when they came out. Even against their ideal targets they deal marginally more damage than 6ed waveserpents used to and are a fraction as durable. The major reason that they freak people out about them is just a sheer lack of experience and double think. By double think I mean the jetbikes always have a 4+ jink, fire at full BS, never fail morale, stay 36"+ away but never within 3d6" of their board edge, never get alpha striked, etc. ALL at the same time. Admittedly it IS possible to make perfect matchups like greentide without a rerollable 2+ save IC to tank the shots or ironically foot skitarii without so serious reserves shenanigans (though TBH serpent spam was just as toxic to both builds and more some in most cases as you now get your cover saves).
Somewhat of a rant in the spoiler. In summary a lot of the hysterics are caused by not discussing specific lists and assuming abilities that wouldn't all fit within a 1850 pts army.
Spoiler:
Overall there has been a tremendous amount of hysterics around this codex. There are a lot of people that are assuming a single army will have all the abilities of 2 farseers (245 pts, assumed guide, invisibility, and eldritch storm), 1 autarch (~110 pts, people constantly assume reliable reserves), 5+ warlock + 5 scatter bike units (185 pts each, 925+ pts, people keep quoting 2+ cover jetbike units and 100+ S6 shots), 1 WWP + D scythe wraithguard in raider (~400 pts, many people keep bringing this or the 350 pts wraithcannon versions up in the same breath as the 100+ scatter laser shots), 2+ Wraithknights (640+ pts, 320 pts each in the preferred configurations how people discuss ObjSec windrider units in the same conversation as 2+ wraithknights I don't know but they do), assorted aspect hosts (300+ pts for 3 units of 5 models), and a crimson death formation (440 pts). As you can see the 3000+ pts army that includes all the most powerful stuff is indeed unbelievably broken when compared to 1850 pts of any other army.
Even against their ideal targets they deal marginally more damage than 6ed waveserpents used to
Really? To get a 6th ed. serpent on the field you need to spend 200 points. Minimum squad of DA + the serpent and upgrades.
The serpent with scatter laser, shuriken cannon and firing the shield averages around 3.25 MEQ casualties per turn.
200 points gets slightly more than 7 bikes. 7 scatbikes deal 5.2 MEQ casualties per turn.
That is a 66% increase in damage for the same cost. It operates to full efficiency out to 36 inch range, and can be further buffed by guide.
Marginal increase? lol.
and are a fraction as durable.
This is debatable and highly dependent on your army.
If you don't have a good alpha strike or barrage weapons, then the bikes with the right terrain are practically untouchable.
Compare them to a space marine, the most prevelant unit analog and central balancing point, and you'll see just how miscosted they are. A Marine analog and an EJB have identical toughness and A couple of points removes your need for a transport, gives you obscene mobility, reduces your minimum point investment for a unit, gives you easier access to phenomenal heavy weaponry, gives you relentless, cannot be pinned, and gives you access to jink. And it doesn't cost much.
They are just as good as they were, and they were the single best troop in the game by a wide margin, but now they have limitless access to a cheap and phenomenal heavy weapon, which can be taken full advantage of with their mobility thanks to relentless. Where other armies are taxed by troops, Eldar would be silly not to include them.
Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
T4 Durability. Basic Troop. PA analog unit ie Marine is a troop in many codices(SM, DA, BA, SW, CSM, GK).
Comparing them to White Scars, an unbalanced Chapter Tactic applied in a single Dex, is bad when looking at the entire scope of the game where balance is concerned. Now, comparing them to Biker Marines does have merit, but using unbalanced White Scars as a general balancing point is not effective.
And it's also good to compare the Biker Marine to the Basic Marine as well. Good balancing comparisons can be made, but the PA Marine is the fundamental balancing point, it's the most common thread to tie the game together.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
I have two words for you: firepower, and mobility.
-Firepower
A GravBiker, as taken from a "Troops"* choice Biker squad, costs, IIRC, 36 points. ~10 points more than a Scatterbiker. In terms of armament alone, you'll trade a Grav-gun (18" range, 3 shots), and the TL Bolter (Rapid Fire/24" range), for a Scatter Laser (heavy 4, 36", S6). In terms of firepower alone, the GravBiker is, realistically, at a bit of a disadvantage to the Scatterbiker. Sure, Grav-guns can and will gak all over 3+/2+ armor units, but they also have to get close. And sure, a Biker gives that Grav-gun a Relentless platform, T5, and a 12" move for a total 30" threat range... but the Scatterbiker has a whopping 48" threat range, that they can technically move out of by JSJ'ing behind LoS-blocking terrain.
Which brings us to...
-Mobility
Scatterbikers are Jetbikes. More specifically, they are Eldar Jetbikes. EJBs have all the terrain-ignoring benefits of regular Jetbikes, on top of a JSJ move. Oh, and things like H&R, Skilled Rider, and S5 HoW? They require the White Scars Chapter Tactics and/or Korsarro Khan in order to gain those benefits.
What happens when I, for example, take Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists, or Black Templars Chapter Tactics? Or maybe the FW Raptors, Carcharadons, or Red Scorpions (the latter of which provides no benefit whatsoever to Bikes)? I don't get any of those bonuses- I mean sure, Iron Hands get 6+ FNP for everyone, and IF get some accuracy benefits for bolter fire and BTs get Crusader and AW... but how important are these benefits for Bikers, who want to be shooting things, are T5/3+, and have TL bolters anyways?
You're also ignoring that you do still need a Bikerboss to make SM Bikers a Troops choice- common as such a choice is, it's still a choice that must be made... and not all armies can make it; for example a MotF to bring lots of FW Relic vehicles along with a Librarian would prevent the use of a Bikerboss... and thus prevent SM Bikers from ever seeing any great use.
As an example, 6 Windriders vs 6 SM Bikers with Grav-guns, which is 162 points vs 157 points. Sure, the Windriders are more expensive... but they'll kill ~3.55 GravBikers per turn. From 36", even. In contrast, at 18", so as to be in Grav-gun range, the GravBikers will have ~2.67 kills from Grav-guns and ~0.59 from their bolters, for 3.26 dead Windriders. Which sounds great... until you realize that they have to do so from anywhere from 50-33% the range of the Windriders. In the two turns that the GravBikers need to get into range, the Windriders can pretty much render them combat-ineffective at best. Worst case? GravBikers get wiped.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
Yeah, totally absurd to compare them to troop choices rather than FA squads that can only be troops if you buy a specific HQ. Also, bikes don't get increased S, cost more and have no long range option, can't turbo boost as far, can't fly over impassable terrain. And of course, everyone fears the D-weapon spam SM can bring to back it the bikes up...
Ejb's run by an at-least competent player are game-wrecking, and worth every iota of internet griping they get.
I mean, if you're a bad player, and you deploy them where they will get killed against an enemy army that has a decent method of killing them on turn 1, then no amount of brokenness from a unit is going to help you.
If you're decent enough to look across the table before you wildly throw them into your deployment zone, it's pretty easy to place them well or even just reserve them if you want to make sure they don't get bale flamer'd or battle cannon'd before they shoot. They have enough firepower that not being able to fire all 5 turns doesn't really hurt you all that much if it means guaranteeing that they get to shoot once before being hit, and they can simply kill the units that were hoping to kill them.
White Scar bikers are about the closest comparison to Eldar Jetbikes, and as demonstrated above they are still grossly inferior. Regular marine bikers are much lower on the totem pole, and spare a thought for Ravenwing, who pay almost the same as a scatbike for... well nothing really.
Cost-wise, they are an Assault Marine. Even using the chapter tactics that best suit assault marines, there's no comparison. And that's BEFORE factoring the heavy weapon on every last bike.
If I could bring Assault Marines as troops, and every single guy could bring a Melta Gun or Flamer, then maybe we'd have some Marine comparisons with the power level of Windriders.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
Why people even say that windriders have low leadership? Its is good and solid 8, as much as marines have.
Windriders in fact do not have exploidable weakneses anleas we are talking about ignor cover/ap3 staff wich is not so common.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
Why people even say that windriders have low leadership? Its is good and solid 8, as much as marines have.
Windriders in fact do not have exploidable weakneses anleas we are talking about ignor cover/ap3 staff wich is not so common.
Because they so desperately want scatbikes not to be as good as they really are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deFl0 wrote: Also, white scars have hit and run which is enormous and they have ATSKNF. Compared to LD8 that's a huge deal.
No, it's not. Neither rule functions when you're dead. And scat bikes make you dead.
You know 30 eldar scatter bikes have a really hard counter that can kill it in one turn... 30 opposing eldar scatter bikes!
Everyone who wanted game balance is going to get it, we'll all just play eldar, because I'm sure as heck not going to put marines on the table against eldar I'd rather just sit there for 3 hours and do nothing.
Kisada II wrote: You know 30 eldar scatter bikes have a really hard counter that can kill it in one turn... 30 opposing eldar scatter bikes!
Everyone who wanted game balance is going to get it, we'll all just play eldar, because I'm sure as heck not going to put marines on the table against eldar I'd rather just sit there for 3 hours and do nothing.
Ah come on, you'll get to do something. You'll get to pick up your models.... as I roll fist fulls of dice. On the bright side, it isn't going to take 3 hours.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
T4 Durability. Basic Troop. PA analog unit ie Marine is a troop in many codices(SM, DA, BA, SW, CSM, GK).
Comparing them to White Scars, an unbalanced Chapter Tactic applied in a single Dex, is bad when looking at the entire scope of the game where balance is concerned. Now, comparing them to Biker Marines does have merit, but using unbalanced White Scars as a general balancing point is not effective.
And it's also good to compare the Biker Marine to the Basic Marine as well. Good balancing comparisons can be made, but the PA Marine is the fundamental balancing point, it's the most common thread to tie the game together.
So now SM bikers are unbalanced as well and therefore invalid for comparison? Would you like to move the goalposts a little futher? Why you would consider the PA marine to be a better comparison than you know, another bike trooper is beyond me. I'm comparing apples to apples. You want to compare apples to gravitational anomalies.
Whiskey144 wrote:
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
I have two words for you: firepower, and mobility.
-Firepower
A GravBiker, as taken from a "Troops"* choice Biker squad, costs, IIRC, 36 points. ~10 points more than a Scatterbiker. In terms of armament alone, you'll trade a Grav-gun (18" range, 3 shots), and the TL Bolter (Rapid Fire/24" range), for a Scatter Laser (heavy 4, 36", S6). In terms of firepower alone, the GravBiker is, realistically, at a bit of a disadvantage to the Scatterbiker. Sure, Grav-guns can and will gak all over 3+/2+ armor units, but they also have to get close. And sure, a Biker gives that Grav-gun a Relentless platform, T5, and a 12" move for a total 30" threat range... but the Scatterbiker has a whopping 48" threat range, that they can technically move out of by JSJ'ing behind LoS-blocking terrain.
Which brings us to...
-Mobility
Scatterbikers are Jetbikes. More specifically, they are Eldar Jetbikes. EJBs have all the terrain-ignoring benefits of regular Jetbikes, on top of a JSJ move. Oh, and things like H&R, Skilled Rider, and S5 HoW? They require the White Scars Chapter Tactics and/or Korsarro Khan in order to gain those benefits.
What happens when I, for example, take Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists, or Black Templars Chapter Tactics? Or maybe the FW Raptors, Carcharadons, or Red Scorpions (the latter of which provides no benefit whatsoever to Bikes)? I don't get any of those bonuses- I mean sure, Iron Hands get 6+ FNP for everyone, and IF get some accuracy benefits for bolter fire and BTs get Crusader and AW... but how important are these benefits for Bikers, who want to be shooting things, are T5/3+, and have TL bolters anyways?
You're also ignoring that you do still need a Bikerboss to make SM Bikers a Troops choice- common as such a choice is, it's still a choice that must be made... and not all armies can make it; for example a MotF to bring lots of FW Relic vehicles along with a Librarian would prevent the use of a Bikerboss... and thus prevent SM Bikers from ever seeing any great use.
As an example, 6 Windriders vs 6 SM Bikers with Grav-guns, which is 162 points vs 157 points. Sure, the Windriders are more expensive... but they'll kill ~3.55 GravBikers per turn. From 36", even. In contrast, at 18", so as to be in Grav-gun range, the GravBikers will have ~2.67 kills from Grav-guns and ~0.59 from their bolters, for 3.26 dead Windriders. Which sounds great... until you realize that they have to do so from anywhere from 50-33% the range of the Windriders. In the two turns that the GravBikers need to get into range, the Windriders can pretty much render them combat-ineffective at best. Worst case? GravBikers get wiped.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
Actually none of those things need Khan to run in an army, he's just for scout. Maybe you're not familiar with the army. Also the maximum number of bikers, ever, that can have grav guns is 2 in a troop squad, with 1 combi grav, or 4 in a command squad. So the 6 to 6 comparison is impossible in this ruleset. Again are you familiar with the SM army? The idea that you would take a MotF and librarin over a Smashmaster or Bike Captain... isn't seriously entertained at the competitive level. If you're talking about a friendly game then this entire conversation is moot. If you run a legal bike squad of 6, you'll find it's dramatically cheaper than the Windriders and compares well against them point for point in a shoot-out (although it will eventually loose, because it's cheaper) and absolutely savages them in assault. You also overlook that SM bikers are a serious threat to vehicles in assault, which is a great part of their utility. Windriders are pathetic in assault without a 50 point warlock upgrade who helps a little bit against vehicles and hardly at all against anything else. Compare this to SM bikers who can easily wreck squadroned russes or anything with AV-10-12 armor, which is most of the vehicles in the game. White scars ignore terrain, which is a hell of a lot better than a jetbike move, as EVERY time you JSJ with your dudes you're going to be taking 6 dangerous terrain checks, possibly more. You also assume that it will take two full turns of unopposed shooting before the bikers can return fire. Have you ever seen a 40k game? There isn't enough board space to avoid bikers like that. They can cover too significant a portion of the board, too rapidly. You have at most one turn before you start taking return fire. And that is pretty optimistic. If you manage to set that up somehow you can be pretty confident that not all the windriders were able to shoot as JSJing a 6 man unit in and out of LOS terrain is actually pretty much impossible on a normal board.
Mavnas wrote:
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
Yeah, totally absurd to compare them to troop choices rather than FA squads that can only be troops if you buy a specific HQ. Also, bikes don't get increased S, cost more and have no long range option, can't turbo boost as far, can't fly over impassable terrain. And of course, everyone fears the D-weapon spam SM can bring to back it the bikes up...
Nice try. Smashmasters are a default HQ choice even outside of the fact that they unlock all bike troops. And it's not a specific HQ, it's any captain or master with a bike, including special characters. SM bikers have St 4, Windriders have St 3, you are aware of this, yes? If you want to say SM bikers cost more, then fine, but then you don't get to assume that the windriders have any heavy weapons. In which case the SM bikers will absolutely SAVAGE them. Point for point unupgraded white scars run train on unupgraded windriders. Bikers can take attack bikes as part of their squads, giving them a long range weapon if they want, so you're wrong there. And Scars ignore difficult terrain check which is a million times more useful than being able to fly over the (extremely rare) impassible terrain pieces. A windrider squad used in the manner that most people are suggesting here with constant JSJing into terrain will loose a non-trivial number of riders to terrain checks over the game. Whereas scar bikers can ride over anything, no problem and therefore get the maximum benefit of cover and LOS screening on their way to assault.
SRSFACE wrote:Cost-wise, they are an Assault Marine. Even using the chapter tactics that best suit assault marines, there's no comparison. And that's BEFORE factoring the heavy weapon on every last bike.
If I could bring Assault Marines as troops, and every single guy could bring a Melta Gun or Flamer, then maybe we'd have some Marine comparisons with the power level of Windriders.
Outrageously false comparison. If you want to factor in a heavy weapon on every bike, then they aren't an assault marine cost anymore! You just gave them a free ten point upgrade in your comparison to assault marines, which even before this codex dropped were considered garbage for like 3 editions in a row. Transparent attempt at a strawman argument.
Martel732 wrote:
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
Why people even say that windriders have low leadership? Its is good and solid 8, as much as marines have.
Windriders in fact do not have exploidable weakneses anleas we are talking about ignor cover/ap3 staff wich is not so common.
Because they so desperately want scatbikes not to be as good as they really are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deFl0 wrote: Also, white scars have hit and run which is enormous and they have ATSKNF. Compared to LD8 that's a huge deal.
No, it's not. Neither rule function when you're dead. And scat bikes make you dead.
Do you mind if I sig that? I think a lot of non-IOM players would find your belief that ATSKNF is not advantageous to be freaking hilarious.
By the way-- since these are such nonadvantages, why don''t you give every army you play against blanket ATSKNF and Hit and Run? I mean, they are weak, useless rules, so it shouldn't be any problem, right? Right?
Windriders have double range, are more mobile, are cheaper and are troops. 108pts of Windrider (16 BS4 shots non-twin linked) easily outshoots a single Flyrant, whose exact points currently escape me, I think they're usually around 240pts, right?
Eldar apologists seem to think that people will only take 2 squads of 3 when it's my understanding its more effective to build a list with multiples of 5.
The kind of unit that is good at removing jetbikes would pretty much have to be something that's good at wiping out most things, like a Heldrake, but scatbikes could potentially be so numerous that a single Heldrake hardly makes a dent.
I think it would be neat if every space marine bike could take an assault cannon, or destroyers could take tesla destructors.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
T4 Durability. Basic Troop. PA analog unit ie Marine is a troop in many codices(SM, DA, BA, SW, CSM, GK).
Comparing them to White Scars, an unbalanced Chapter Tactic applied in a single Dex, is bad when looking at the entire scope of the game where balance is concerned. Now, comparing them to Biker Marines does have merit, but using unbalanced White Scars as a general balancing point is not effective.
And it's also good to compare the Biker Marine to the Basic Marine as well. Good balancing comparisons can be made, but the PA Marine is the fundamental balancing point, it's the most common thread to tie the game together.
So now SM bikers are unbalanced as well and therefore invalid for comparison? Would you like to move the goalposts a little futher? Why you would consider the PA marine to be a better comparison than you know, another bike trooper is beyond me. I'm comparing apples to apples. You want to compare apples to gravitational anomalies.
Whiskey144 wrote:
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
I have two words for you: firepower, and mobility.
-Firepower
A GravBiker, as taken from a "Troops"* choice Biker squad, costs, IIRC, 36 points. ~10 points more than a Scatterbiker. In terms of armament alone, you'll trade a Grav-gun (18" range, 3 shots), and the TL Bolter (Rapid Fire/24" range), for a Scatter Laser (heavy 4, 36", S6). In terms of firepower alone, the GravBiker is, realistically, at a bit of a disadvantage to the Scatterbiker. Sure, Grav-guns can and will gak all over 3+/2+ armor units, but they also have to get close. And sure, a Biker gives that Grav-gun a Relentless platform, T5, and a 12" move for a total 30" threat range... but the Scatterbiker has a whopping 48" threat range, that they can technically move out of by JSJ'ing behind LoS-blocking terrain.
Which brings us to...
-Mobility
Scatterbikers are Jetbikes. More specifically, they are Eldar Jetbikes. EJBs have all the terrain-ignoring benefits of regular Jetbikes, on top of a JSJ move. Oh, and things like H&R, Skilled Rider, and S5 HoW? They require the White Scars Chapter Tactics and/or Korsarro Khan in order to gain those benefits.
What happens when I, for example, take Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists, or Black Templars Chapter Tactics? Or maybe the FW Raptors, Carcharadons, or Red Scorpions (the latter of which provides no benefit whatsoever to Bikes)? I don't get any of those bonuses- I mean sure, Iron Hands get 6+ FNP for everyone, and IF get some accuracy benefits for bolter fire and BTs get Crusader and AW... but how important are these benefits for Bikers, who want to be shooting things, are T5/3+, and have TL bolters anyways?
You're also ignoring that you do still need a Bikerboss to make SM Bikers a Troops choice- common as such a choice is, it's still a choice that must be made... and not all armies can make it; for example a MotF to bring lots of FW Relic vehicles along with a Librarian would prevent the use of a Bikerboss... and thus prevent SM Bikers from ever seeing any great use.
As an example, 6 Windriders vs 6 SM Bikers with Grav-guns, which is 162 points vs 157 points. Sure, the Windriders are more expensive... but they'll kill ~3.55 GravBikers per turn. From 36", even. In contrast, at 18", so as to be in Grav-gun range, the GravBikers will have ~2.67 kills from Grav-guns and ~0.59 from their bolters, for 3.26 dead Windriders. Which sounds great... until you realize that they have to do so from anywhere from 50-33% the range of the Windriders. In the two turns that the GravBikers need to get into range, the Windriders can pretty much render them combat-ineffective at best. Worst case? GravBikers get wiped.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
Actually none of those things need Khan to run in an army, he's just for scout. Maybe you're not familiar with the army. Also the maximum number of bikers, ever, that can have grav guns is 2 in a troop squad, with 1 combi grav, or 4 in a command squad. So the 6 to 6 comparison is impossible in this ruleset. Again are you familiar with the SM army? The idea that you would take a MotF and librarin over a Smashmaster or Bike Captain... isn't seriously entertained at the competitive level. If you're talking about a friendly game then this entire conversation is moot. If you run a legal bike squad of 6, you'll find it's dramatically cheaper than the Windriders and compares well against them point for point in a shoot-out (although it will eventually loose, because it's cheaper) and absolutely savages them in assault. You also overlook that SM bikers are a serious threat to vehicles in assault, which is a great part of their utility. Windriders are pathetic in assault without a 50 point warlock upgrade who helps a little bit against vehicles and hardly at all against anything else. Compare this to SM bikers who can easily wreck squadroned russes or anything with AV-10-12 armor, which is most of the vehicles in the game. White scars ignore terrain, which is a hell of a lot better than a jetbike move, as EVERY time you JSJ with your dudes you're going to be taking 6 dangerous terrain checks, possibly more. You also assume that it will take two full turns of unopposed shooting before the bikers can return fire. Have you ever seen a 40k game? There isn't enough board space to avoid bikers like that. They can cover too significant a portion of the board, too rapidly. You have at most one turn before you start taking return fire. And that is pretty optimistic. If you manage to set that up somehow you can be pretty confident that not all the windriders were able to shoot as JSJing a 6 man unit in and out of LOS terrain is actually pretty much impossible on a normal board.
Mavnas wrote:
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
Yeah, totally absurd to compare them to troop choices rather than FA squads that can only be troops if you buy a specific HQ. Also, bikes don't get increased S, cost more and have no long range option, can't turbo boost as far, can't fly over impassable terrain. And of course, everyone fears the D-weapon spam SM can bring to back it the bikes up...
Nice try. Smashmasters are a default HQ choice even outside of the fact that they unlock all bike troops. And it's not a specific HQ, it's any captain or master with a bike, including special characters. SM bikers have St 4, Windriders have St 3, you are aware of this, yes? If you want to say SM bikers cost more, then fine, but then you don't get to assume that the windriders have any heavy weapons. In which case the SM bikers will absolutely SAVAGE them. Point for point unupgraded white scars run train on unupgraded windriders. Bikers can take attack bikes as part of their squads, giving them a long range weapon if they want, so you're wrong there. And Scars ignore difficult terrain check which is a million times more useful than being able to fly over the (extremely rare) impassible terrain pieces. A windrider squad used in the manner that most people are suggesting here with constant JSJing into terrain will loose a non-trivial number of riders to terrain checks over the game. Whereas scar bikers can ride over anything, no problem and therefore get the maximum benefit of cover and LOS screening on their way to assault.
SRSFACE wrote:Cost-wise, they are an Assault Marine. Even using the chapter tactics that best suit assault marines, there's no comparison. And that's BEFORE factoring the heavy weapon on every last bike.
If I could bring Assault Marines as troops, and every single guy could bring a Melta Gun or Flamer, then maybe we'd have some Marine comparisons with the power level of Windriders.
Outrageously false comparison. If you want to factor in a heavy weapon on every bike, then they aren't an assault marine cost anymore! You just gave them a free ten point upgrade in your comparison to assault marines, which even before this codex dropped were considered garbage for like 3 editions in a row. Transparent attempt at a strawman argument.
Martel732 wrote:
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
Why people even say that windriders have low leadership? Its is good and solid 8, as much as marines have.
Windriders in fact do not have exploidable weakneses anleas we are talking about ignor cover/ap3 staff wich is not so common.
Because they so desperately want scatbikes not to be as good as they really are.
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deFl0 wrote: Also, white scars have hit and run which is enormous and they have ATSKNF. Compared to LD8 that's a huge deal.
No, it's not. Neither rule function when you're dead. And scat bikes make you dead.
Do you mind if I sig that? I think a lot of non-IOM players would find your belief that ATSKNF is not advantageous to be freaking hilarious.
By the way-- since these are such nonadvantages, why don''t you give every army you play against blanket ATSKNF and Hit and Run? I mean, they are weak, useless rules, so it shouldn't be any problem, right? Right?
"Do you mind if I sig that? I think a lot of non-IOM players would find your belief that ATSKNF is not advantageous to be freaking hilarious.
By the way-- since these are such nonadvantages, why don''t you give every army you play against blanket ATSKNF and Hit and Run? I mean, they are weak, useless rules, so it shouldn't be any problem, right? Right? "
I'd be fine with that actually. Then they can behold ATSKNF in all its crappy glory. It wouldn't change the outcome of 90% of my games, which involve huge firepower lists making me pick up huge amounts of models. Who cares if the two remaining stragglers from a 10-man group automatically regroup? They'll be dead the next turn. The standard marine lacks firepower/pt efficacy in a game about firepower. The bells and whistles don't matter after that flawed concept. Why are grav cents good? They have good firepower for their cost.
I've done the opposite quite a few times; that is, turned off ATSKNF voluntarily upon Xeno complaining. They still shot me to death just like they did before. It matters not.
White scar bikes are powerful.
Eldar bikes are powerful.
Scatter lasers are powerful.
Each is a competitive entity in its own right. And each could receive nerfs that the 40k community as a whole would understand.
The problem with the new jetbikes is that they combined an already powerful unit that regularly saw competitive play, with a powerful weapon that normally saw competitive play.
Most people were expecting some kind of nerf, especially if you consider that harlequin bikes are 4+ save.
Problems are:
1) No heavy weapon limit: self explanatory.
2) 10 points per scatter laser is very good value. Its basically an assault cannon that swaps rending for +12 range. But costs 10 points less than SM pay for it.
3) 36 range synergises very well with 2d6 assault phase move.
4) Already the best objective capper in the game with an obscene movement speed.
Whitescar bikes are competitive, and more durable in a straight up fight. But the eldar bikes are categorically better when it comes to intelligent play.
Better damage output, better speed, better range, and if LoS blocking terrain is present then infinitely more durable.
Letting every SM bike take an assault cannon on their bikes for 10 points a model would make them a fair comparison.
Truth118 wrote: Some people consider a Flyrant to be competitive.
Windriders have double range, are more mobile, are cheaper and are troops. 108pts of Windrider (16 BS4 shots non-twin linked) easily outshoots a single Flyrant, whose exact points currently escape me, I think they're usually around 240pts, right?
Eldar apologists seem to think that people will only take 2 squads of 3 when it's my understanding its more effective to build a list with multiples of 5.
The kind of unit that is good at removing jetbikes would pretty much have to be something that's good at wiping out most things, like a Heldrake, but scatbikes could potentially be so numerous that a single Heldrake hardly makes a dent.
I think it would be neat if every space marine bike could take an assault cannon, or destroyers could take tesla destructors.
This.
Some people think flyrants are scary, but Scatbikes hugely outshoot them or Tyranid Dakkafexes for the same cost and can be spammed in far greater numbers. A tyranid player would need to start dipping into formations or additional CADs to get more than a handful of flyrants and even the Sky tyrant swarm comes with a two gargoyle swarm tax to get a single additional flyrant. An Eldar player can have up to six windrider squadrons before they need to look to more options to continue to get superscoring bikes.
Martel732 wrote: "Do you mind if I sig that? I think a lot of non-IOM players would find your belief that ATSKNF is not advantageous to be freaking hilarious.
By the way-- since these are such nonadvantages, why don''t you give every army you play against blanket ATSKNF and Hit and Run? I mean, they are weak, useless rules, so it shouldn't be any problem, right? Right? "
I'd be fine with that actually. Then they can behold ATSKNF in all its crappy glory. It wouldn't change the outcome of 90% of my games, which involve huge firepower lists making me pick up huge amounts of models. Who cares if the two remaining stragglers from a 10-man group automatically regroup? They'll be dead the next turn. The standard marine lacks firepower/pt efficacy in a game about firepower. The bells and whistles don't matter after that flawed concept. Why are grav cents good? They have good firepower for their cost.
I've done the opposite quite a few times; that is, turned off ATSKNF voluntarily upon Xeno complaining. They still shot me to death just like they did before. It matters not.
Good rule on bad model is the issue imo. Auto-rallying unsweepable necrons, for example, would be terrifying.
Martel732 wrote: "Do you mind if I sig that? I think a lot of non-IOM players would find your belief that ATSKNF is not advantageous to be freaking hilarious.
By the way-- since these are such nonadvantages, why don''t you give every army you play against blanket ATSKNF and Hit and Run? I mean, they are weak, useless rules, so it shouldn't be any problem, right? Right? "
I'd be fine with that actually. Then they can behold ATSKNF in all its crappy glory. It wouldn't change the outcome of 90% of my games, which involve huge firepower lists making me pick up huge amounts of models. Who cares if the two remaining stragglers from a 10-man group automatically regroup? They'll be dead the next turn. The standard marine lacks firepower/pt efficacy in a game about firepower. The bells and whistles don't matter after that flawed concept. Why are grav cents good? They have good firepower for their cost.
I've done the opposite quite a few times; that is, turned off ATSKNF voluntarily upon Xeno complaining. They still shot me to death just like they did before. It matters not.
Good rule on bad model is the issue imo. Auto-rallying unsweepable necrons, for example, would be terrifying.
I usually would prefer my models to be swept, actually. That allows me to shoot the enemy on my turn. It does me no good to stay locked in combat with tactical marines.
Martel732 wrote: I usually would prefer my models to be swept, actually. That allows me to shoot the enemy on my turn. It does me no good to stay locked in combat with tactical marines.
I'd say it varies based on the assaulting unit in question. Those that depend on varying combinations of Furious Charge / Rage / Hatred are unlikely to inflict measurable damage on the second round. Generally though - I see your point.
My, what a sparkling conversationalist you are! Sit down, I don't want you to over-exert yourself mentally by having to stand and breathe at the same time.
th3maninblak wrote: Everyone complained about white scar bikes when they came out, particularly with grav. A grav biker is 36 points. An eldar scatbike is 27 points and is every bit as good.
for 9 more points you get +1 s, +1 T , better LD (with sarge), ATSKNF, and a gun that is significantly better though shorter ranged, skilled rider. i would take grav gun white scar bikes over scat bikes every single time. both are some of the best troops in the game.
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Truth118 wrote: Some people consider a Flyrant to be competitive.
Windriders have double range, are more mobile, are cheaper and are troops. 108pts of Windrider (16 BS4 shots non-twin linked) easily outshoots a single Flyrant, whose exact points currently escape me, I think they're usually around 240pts, right?
Eldar apologists seem to think that people will only take 2 squads of 3 when it's my understanding its more effective to build a list with multiples of 5.
The kind of unit that is good at removing jetbikes would pretty much have to be something that's good at wiping out most things, like a Heldrake, but scatbikes could potentially be so numerous that a single Heldrake hardly makes a dent.
I think it would be neat if every space marine bike could take an assault cannon, or destroyers could take tesla destructors.
lets double those scatter shots making the squad 216 points. thats 32 bs4 shots, hitting on 6s, wounding on 4s, and saves are allowed, basically what 1.5 wounds or so? compared to 12 twinlinked s6 shots, wounding on 2s, allowing regular saves, say 3 or 4 wounds. I still like the tyrant in this scenario. Personally, ill be using the now insane 3 crimson hunter formation to kill tyrants.
th3maninblak wrote: Everyone complained about white scar bikes when they came out, particularly with grav. A grav biker is 36 points. An eldar scatbike is 27 points and is every bit as good.
are you high? for 9 more points you get +1 s, +1 T , better LD, ATSKNF, and a gun that is significantly better though shorter ranged. i would take grav gun bikes over scat bikes every single time. kill two T4 bikes from a 5-8 man squad and the eldar player is taking a leadership test on a 7, i dont like those odds on multiple tests.
Eldar bikes have LD8 base, which is the same as non-upgraded SM bikes.
Grav gun is significantly better? Half the range, +50% of the cost, and is only actually better vs some targets. Against marines in 5+ cover the grav gun does a grand total of 0.1 more wounds per turn.
Pretty comparable imo, especially when given the costs and especially when considering the range.
Remember, eldar can take as many as they like in a squad, SM are stuck with 2 + a combi.
I agree with the other guy, Eldar jetikes are easily as good as, and imo far better than, whitescar bikes.
th3maninblak wrote: Everyone complained about white scar bikes when they came out, particularly with grav. A grav biker is 36 points. An eldar scatbike is 27 points and is every bit as good.
are you high? for 9 more points you get +1 s, +1 T , better LD, ATSKNF, and a gun that is significantly better though shorter ranged. i would take grav gun bikes over scat bikes every single time. kill two T4 bikes from a 5-8 man squad and the eldar player is taking a leadership test on a 7, i dont like those odds on multiple tests.
Eldar bikes have LD8 base, which is the same as non-upgraded SM bikes.
Grav gun is significantly better? Half the range, +50% of the cost, and is only actually better vs some targets. Against marines in 5+ cover the grav gun does a grand total of 0.1 more wounds per turn.
Pretty comparable imo, especially when given the costs and especially when considering the range.
Remember, eldar can take as many as they like in a squad, SM are stuck with 2 + a combi.
I agree with the other guy, Eldar jetikes are easily as good as, and imo far better than, whitescar bikes.
ya only better against MC and vehicles, you know, the biggest threats in the game. Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.
I think the white scars bikers is a fair point to start a comparison. A white scars biker is 21 points base, must take 5 to be troops and only 2 of those 5 can have grav guns at 15 points (the serge can take a combi for 10). The range on grav guns is 18".
So for 145 points you can have 9 grav shots at 18". You can buy 5 Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers for those points (and have a few points left) and have 20 scatter laser shots at 36".
So at 36" the Eldar jetbikes kill 4 of the White scars bikers.
At 18" the White scars kill 4 of the eldar bikers (2 if the Eldar jink)
But the obvious is that the White Scars are never going to get within 18"
Maybe it will be faq'd that you can't take a scatter laser on every bike (I hope it's right after every WAAC player models their 30 jetbikes with them)
It's difficult to take such things in a vacuum. Yes, White Scar bikes are better against MC's and vehicles, but the Eldar have D-weapons for that. The scat lasers will more than take care of everything else.
Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.
Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.
So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.
Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.
Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?
If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.
Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
T4 Durability. Basic Troop. PA analog unit ie Marine is a troop in many codices(SM, DA, BA, SW, CSM, GK).
Comparing them to White Scars, an unbalanced Chapter Tactic applied in a single Dex, is bad when looking at the entire scope of the game where balance is concerned. Now, comparing them to Biker Marines does have merit, but using unbalanced White Scars as a general balancing point is not effective.
And it's also good to compare the Biker Marine to the Basic Marine as well. Good balancing comparisons can be made, but the PA Marine is the fundamental balancing point, it's the most common thread to tie the game together.
So now SM bikers are unbalanced as well and therefore invalid for comparison? Would you like to move the goalposts a little futher? Why you would consider the PA marine to be a better comparison than you know, another bike trooper is beyond me. I'm comparing apples to apples. You want to compare apples to gravitational anomalies.
I actually said SM bikers are a good point of comparison, and also said White Scars Bikers were not a good as a general balancing point comparison as they are also an unbalanced unit. White Scars are unequivocally better than SM Bikers and they are one of the best troops in the game. Comparing the best troop in the game to one of the other best troops in the game when discussing general troop balance is not very productive. But, comparing models with similar base points costs, identical toughness as well as saves when one is the most numerous troop analog in the game does have merit.
Also, comparing a 7th Edition Troop to a 6th Edition FA unit that can be made a troop and is likely to be soon be losing said FOC modification is less productive as well.
I was making a point about general game and troop balance, using the most prevalent troop analog. Discussing only the most powerful units in a vacuum in comparison to each other is useless for general game balance. Overall game balance has to be died back to a common point, I choose the PA Space Marine analog due to its prevalence. Your frame of reference and comparison was very limited. You failed to read my posts with understanding choosing to insert your own assumptions. Your argument style was necessarily hostile.
But the obvious is that the White Scars are never going to get within 18"
WHAT!?!?! Um, how are you not getting in range. White scars will have range on the whole board on turn 1 (cuz scout from Khan). Turn 1 scout, plus move= White Scars have range to every corner of the Eldar Deployment, meaning the 48" move that the jetbikes have means nothing. The jetbike will then have to choose between turboboosting from in range of the Whitescars, to...still in range, but behind the Whitescars.
The only way for the jetbikes to stay truly out of range is to play Hammer & Anvil (the long deployment). And even then you will have range by turn 2 and the Jetbike now have NO place on the board to run.
I am not saying you wont loose a lot of bikes coming in, but stop pretending that the range makes THAT much of a difference on a 6x4 table
---------------------------
By the way, this assumes multiple units of White Scars vs multiple units of Scatterbikes. We cant look at a unit to unit comparision in a "complete" vaccum
Your assuming their is no way to deploy the eldar jetbikes out of sight ie. 0 line of sight blocking terrain and you include Khan to the conversation which I guess is semi-fair
Range does does make a difference when the majority of the opponents force is not a scouting 12' move unit.
Don't just compare WS vs Scatbikes (WS lose most the time anyway). Compare them in a variety of situations.
Most forces are not as fast as a WS bike army, and here the range difference is a huge advantage. 36 range, along with cover ignoring movement and an assault move, really forces the opponent to come to you and play by your rules. WS bikes on the other hand need to get closer.
It is a fact that using the WS bikes will take more planning, and require more losses to be taken, as they have to get within 18 of a target, and have no assault move to get out of dodge.
Comparing base stats has its uses, but by far the most powerful thing about the scatbikes is their range + assault move, and many people are ignoring this.
Actually none of those things need Khan to run in an army, he's just for scout. Maybe you're not familiar with the army. Also the maximum number of bikers, ever, that can have grav guns is 2 in a troop squad, with 1 combi grav, or 4 in a command squad. So the 6 to 6 comparison is impossible in this ruleset. Again are you familiar with the SM army? The idea that you would take a MotF and librarin over a Smashmaster or Bike Captain... isn't seriously entertained at the competitive level. If you're talking about a friendly game then this entire conversation is moot. If you run a legal bike squad of 6, you'll find it's dramatically cheaper than the Windriders and compares well against them point for point in a shoot-out (although it will eventually loose, because it's cheaper) and absolutely savages them in assault. You also overlook that SM bikers are a serious threat to vehicles in assault, which is a great part of their utility. Windriders are pathetic in assault without a 50 point warlock upgrade who helps a little bit against vehicles and hardly at all against anything else. Compare this to SM bikers who can easily wreck squadroned russes or anything with AV-10-12 armor, which is most of the vehicles in the game. White scars ignore terrain, which is a hell of a lot better than a jetbike move, as EVERY time you JSJ with your dudes you're going to be taking 6 dangerous terrain checks, possibly more. You also assume that it will take two full turns of unopposed shooting before the bikers can return fire. Have you ever seen a 40k game? There isn't enough board space to avoid bikers like that. They can cover too significant a portion of the board, too rapidly. You have at most one turn before you start taking return fire. And that is pretty optimistic. If you manage to set that up somehow you can be pretty confident that not all the windriders were able to shoot as JSJing a 6 man unit in and out of LOS terrain is actually pretty much impossible on a normal board.
Your wall of text is offensive to me. You should fix it.
With that out of the way, I made the comparison using the limitations provided by the SM book; IE, "Troops" Bikers may only have a maximum of 2 special weapons.
The point is that the GravBikers can only get two special weapons. Windriders get a Scatter Laser apiece, and cost 6 points more per model than a basic SM Biker. A GravBiker costs 36 points, about 10 points more than a Scatterbike.
So a legal squad of GravBikers isn't dramatically cheaper than Windriders, unless you're a total fething idiot and run 9 Windriders as a bigass squad. 6 Bikers with two Grav-guns and a Combi-grav is 166 points. 6 Scatterbikes is 162 points... wow, the Windriders are actually cheaper! Sure, it's a 4-point difference... but it's there.
Obviously I am not the one who has no fething clue what they're talking about.
Silverthorne wrote: Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.
I have two words for you: firepower, and mobility.
-Firepower
A GravBiker, as taken from a "Troops"* choice Biker squad, costs, IIRC, 36 points. ~10 points more than a Scatterbiker. In terms of armament alone, you'll trade a Grav-gun (18" range, 3 shots), and the TL Bolter (Rapid Fire/24" range), for a Scatter Laser (heavy 4, 36", S6). In terms of firepower alone, the GravBiker is, realistically, at a bit of a disadvantage to the Scatterbiker. Sure, Grav-guns can and will gak all over 3+/2+ armor units, but they also have to get close. And sure, a Biker gives that Grav-gun a Relentless platform, T5, and a 12" move for a total 30" threat range... but the Scatterbiker has a whopping 48" threat range, that they can technically move out of by JSJ'ing behind LoS-blocking terrain.
Which brings us to...
-Mobility
Scatterbikers are Jetbikes. More specifically, they are Eldar Jetbikes. EJBs have all the terrain-ignoring benefits of regular Jetbikes, on top of a JSJ move. Oh, and things like H&R, Skilled Rider, and S5 HoW? They require the White Scars Chapter Tactics and/or Korsarro Khan in order to gain those benefits.
What happens when I, for example, take Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists, or Black Templars Chapter Tactics? Or maybe the FW Raptors, Carcharadons, or Red Scorpions (the latter of which provides no benefit whatsoever to Bikes)? I don't get any of those bonuses- I mean sure, Iron Hands get 6+ FNP for everyone, and IF get some accuracy benefits for bolter fire and BTs get Crusader and AW... but how important are these benefits for Bikers, who want to be shooting things, are T5/3+, and have TL bolters anyways?
You're also ignoring that you do still need a Bikerboss to make SM Bikers a Troops choice- common as such a choice is, it's still a choice that must be made... and not all armies can make it; for example a MotF to bring lots of FW Relic vehicles along with a Librarian would prevent the use of a Bikerboss... and thus prevent SM Bikers from ever seeing any great use.
As an example, 6 Windriders vs 6 SM Bikers with Grav-guns, which is 162 points vs 157 points. Sure, the Windriders are more expensive... but they'll kill ~3.55 GravBikers per turn. From 36", even. In contrast, at 18", so as to be in Grav-gun range, the GravBikers will have ~2.67 kills from Grav-guns and ~0.59 from their bolters, for 3.26 dead Windriders. Which sounds great... until you realize that they have to do so from anywhere from 50-33% the range of the Windriders. In the two turns that the GravBikers need to get into range, the Windriders can pretty much render them combat-ineffective at best. Worst case? GravBikers get wiped.
People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.
BikerBoss?!?! That's OUR word, you can't use that! good summary though.
Kisada II wrote: You know 30 eldar scatter bikes have a really hard counter that can kill it in one turn... 30 opposing eldar scatter bikes!
Everyone who wanted game balance is going to get it, we'll all just play eldar, because I'm sure as heck not going to put marines on the table against eldar I'd rather just sit there for 3 hours and do nothing.
Ah come on, you'll get to do something. You'll get to pick up your models.... as I roll fist fulls of dice. On the bright side, it isn't going to take 3 hours.
Now everyone will know what it's like to be an Ork player against Tau and Grey Knights all these years.
If the Eldar player reserves his bikes (which I personally will be doing) Then you miss out on at least 1 turn, and possibly more turns, of shooting.
I wholeheartedly agree that Windriders are better than Whitescars in a "vs" comparison, but in their respective armies as a whole, the Whitescars are more versatile and the Windriders HAVE to behave in certain ways to survive.
Galef wrote: Check the White Scar chapter Tactics. That is how they get S5 HoW
Either way, his point doesn't really work. "Let's compare this standard troop choice to this other unit which has x, y and z characteristics in these extremely particular and non-standard circumstances." To which, of course, the answer should be: "...or not. Let's compare apples to apples." I play crimson fists, and my HQ is Pedro Kantor. I don't get S5 HOW biker troop choices. The standard marine troop choices are scouts and tactical marines. Let's compare the scatbikes to their point equivalency in tactical or scout marines.
So, 3 windrider scatbikes are roughly 85 points? Give or take 5 points? For 85 points, I get 5 marines with a veteran sarge and meltabombs. I don't even get to upgrade a guy to a flamer.
So...yeah. Before my 5 guys (who don't even get a rhino or a drop pod at 85 points) are even able to get into range to fire their bolters, they'll have been effortlessly gunned down by 12 shot volleys of S6 fire. Thanks, GW!
Big Blind Bill wrote: Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.
Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.
So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.
Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.
Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?
If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.
Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.
[spoiler]
id like to know how bikes do vs av 13 and 14, guess what, atleast if forced to grav bikes CAN strip it of hull points. scat bikes cant. So let me ammend my statement, grav a ridicuolosly better than scats vs MC, better vs elite infantry, better vs high av vehicles. Scat bikes are better vs light armour and light infantry. idk about you but on planet bowlingball where i live, one of those is better againstactual in game threats and its not the bikes.
And i also know here on planetbowling bowl, aka reality, that no not every single unit infantry or itherwise aee getting cover saves. frankly if you play with that much scenery, dont the scat bikes have reduced effective movement and gun range avoiding all that? Guess not in made up land
Big Blind Bill wrote: Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.
Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.
So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.
Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.
Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?
If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.
Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.
[spoiler]
id like to know how bikes do vs av 13 and 14, guess what, atleast if forced to grav bikes CAN strip it of hull points. scat bikes cant. So let me ammend my statement, grav a ridicuolosly better than scats vs MC, better vs elite infantry, better vs high av vehicles. Scat bikes are better vs light armour and light infantry. idk about you but on planet bowlingball where i live, one of those is better againstactual in game threats and its not the bikes.
And i also know here on planetbowling bowl, aka reality, that no not every single unit infantry or itherwise aee getting cover saves. frankly if you play with that much scenery, dont the scat bikes have reduced effective movement and gun range avoiding all that? Guess not in made up land
And the damage WS bikers struggle to hurt things on the other side of the board unless the get closer, don't have a good answer to camo cloak scouts gone to ground or any other 2+ objective camper they can't get close to without being overwhelmed.
Oh and 3++ units. Scat bikers kill those much better from outside charge range, but really why would you want to kill TWC or Wraiths before they murder your dudes?
Big Blind Bill wrote: Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.
Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.
So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.
Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.
Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?
If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.
Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.
[spoiler]
id like to know how bikes do vs av 13 and 14, guess what, atleast if forced to grav bikes CAN strip it of hull points. scat bikes cant. So let me ammend my statement, grav a ridicuolosly better than scats vs MC, better vs elite infantry, better vs high av vehicles. Scat bikes are better vs light armour and light infantry. idk about you but on planet bowlingball where i live, one of those is better againstactual in game threats and its not the bikes.
And i also know here on planetbowling bowl, aka reality, that no not every single unit infantry or itherwise aee getting cover saves. frankly if you play with that much scenery, dont the scat bikes have reduced effective movement and gun range avoiding all that? Guess not in made up land
So, WS bikes are better because they can hurt AV 13 and 14 in a very mediocre fashion. What a ridiculous argument lol.
Cover saves are very easy to come by, hell you can make your own by inter weaving units. Not every unit will have a save, but a good opponent will try to make sure the units that matter do.
Let me show you some numbers, as you seem incapable of doing your own research and keep spouting false information.
Number of wounds caused by scatbikes Vs gravgun white scars against T4 targets
For the purpose of this test, we'll compare 5 scatbikes, against 5 WS bikes with 2 grav guns. Both are 135 points.
I am considering the WS bikes to be in rapid fire range for their bolters.
So, scatbikes are not 'better vs light infantry,' but are categorically better vs everything except 2+ saves.
Not only do they have a higher damage output, but they doing so at 3x the range.
Also please bear in mind that these numbers do not include any kind of invulnerable or cover saves. This will have a large effect on the WS values.
A 4+ cover save (a normal jink save) reduces WS damage output against 2+ saves to only 2 wounds a turn.
Scatbikes are better if a 3+ or better cover save can be found.
By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.
I play WS as one of my primary armies. They are very capable. But they have nothing on the raw damage output of scatbikes.
WS are more versatile, but as scatbikes are so powerful vs 90% of the targets in the game the eldar player has a lot of free points to deal with MCs and heavy vehicles.
My, what a sparkling conversationalist you are! Sit down, I don't want you to over-exert yourself mentally by having to stand and breathe at the same time.
You'll have to forgive me. I've seen a lot of Eldar and GW apologists, but you sir take the cake.
By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.
Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.
By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.
Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.
-Matt
Yes they definitely do.
They do have to be get into melee first though, which completely negates the argument that WS bikes are more durable, as they are going to have to eat a couple of rounds of shooting at point blank.
My response regarding the vehicles is to clarify that grav guns are not that great against them.
By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.
Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.
-Matt
Ah yes, the classic argument bringing up Krak grenades.
They're nice, but don't pretend they're that great an option.
By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.
Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.
-Matt
Ah yes, the classic argument bringing up Krak grenades.
They're nice, but don't pretend they're that great an option.
You can't discount them on a 12 inch move platform with str 5 HoW and hit and run. These guys made 6th ed serpent spam a breeze to deal with for me.
That said, I still don't find the utility of the WS to match the pure damage potential of the scatbikes.
You don't judge fire dragons on their ability to cook orks, similarly you shouldnt be judging scatbikes on their ability to deal with heavy armour.
Kisada II wrote: You know 30 eldar scatter bikes have a really hard counter that can kill it in one turn... 30 opposing eldar scatter bikes!
Everyone who wanted game balance is going to get it, we'll all just play eldar, because I'm sure as heck not going to put marines on the table against eldar I'd rather just sit there for 3 hours and do nothing.
Ah come on, you'll get to do something. You'll get to pick up your models.... as I roll fist fulls of dice. On the bright side, it isn't going to take 3 hours.
you have to roll a lot of dice against scatter bikes. Armor saves and FNP. If you have 50 models you might get to roll 200 dice before you pack up.
You know, after I played my first hardcore "nasty" Eldar list with my guard...I'm really not seeing it.
He ran: the Windrider host formation all Scatterbikes, 2 wraithknights with D cannons, and a Wraithfighter.
I ran guard, what I generally run for guard: one blob platoon with Lascannons, priest and divination Primaris, Paskisher with Battlecannon Pask Pal, 2 Wyverns, all sitting behind an aegis line with quad gun, then I take Tempestus squads to drop in and claim objectives.
He got turn 1, took D cannon shots at Pask's buddy, luckily it was night fight so he didn't take a scratch, the bikes took a half decent chunk out of the blob ( those scatter lasers do hurt no doubt about it) but the big thing was he opted to move forward with the WKs rather than stay in cover to try and get me in melee.
Wyverns chunked the bike squadrons hard with ignores cover, Pask, buddy and the blob smacked a WK for 5 wounds, and it basically just went downhill from there until the Eldar player got mad and packed up at the bottom of turn 2. Wraithfighter just ate quad fire, had to Jink and couldn't use his D flamers, Wraithlords both died, bikes for the most part died to Tempestus...
People always say "oh it takes X Lascannons to kill Y" but turn on Prescience, Bring it down/Ignore Cover through an order, those things are going to pack a punch.
This entire thread has gone off the deep end.
Comparing one totally broken unit to another doesnt mean anything. The main question is what to do about the clusterfeth GW have made of codex design recently.
The only reasonable answer is for a method of policing, either a variant of comp or restricting oneself to casual play. 40K is now unplayable without a gentleman's agreement not to cheese out.
I mean seriously if an ork player wants a game, what will Eldar players do? Bring a load of scatterbikes and table him by turn three, without even thinking about the scenario or tactical deployment. Just turn up with your Farseers, a mess of bikes and some D-cheese in case the ladz bring something S6 cant kill.
Any 12 year old can win with Eldar now, and there isn't much many armies can do about it.
This topic needs a purpose. Eldar = broken, don't even try to argue against that.
The question now is, how do we police the codex?
I think its time Dakka took matter into it own hands and wrote balanced codex guidelines. Supplementary rules for fairer better games. We shouldn't change the rules and costs , just work with them to form Dakka comp.
For Eldar we could start with.
1. No more than 1 unit with strength D ranged per 2000pts.
2. No more than 1 unit with strength D melee per 1000pts.
3. Jetbikes use the old restrictions on armament. For every jetbike squadron you take under the old restriction you may take another under the new armament restriction, this second unit may not cost more than the first.
4. Continued.
Yes we need to form Dakka Comp for all the armies, starting with Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Woofs.
We should start a new topic on this and work the lists through and make a Dakka Comp .pdf for all armies.
the_scotsman wrote: You know, after I played my first hardcore "nasty" Eldar list with my guard...I'm really not seeing it.
So, you got lucky by being protected by night fight on the first turn, then the opponent made a decision that you yourself admit was tactically poor, and somehow the army is at fault?
Martel732 wrote: Guardsman are more efficient at soaking scatterlaser fire. Much more efficient than meqs.
True that but MEQs are hardly points efficient at soaking any kind of fire. That's why they're almost always in transports or dropping in to mini maize their exposure to fire. If the scar bikes waste their turn as a 270 point unit popping a 35 point rhino, good. If you get to drop in and take the first shot at them even better.
Honestly the big thing I thought wasn't so hard to handle was the WK. I was thinking it had an invuln but no, it just gets a 5+. And the Strength D is only two shots, sure it sucks if a tank gets aced (Pasks buddy did die to a 6 turn 2) but it's like, okay, that's at best gonna be half his points value and it's the same odds as if someone shot me with a melta or something and one melta gunner is not even close to 300 points.
Martel732 wrote: Guardsman are more efficient at soaking scatterlaser fire. Much more efficient than meqs.
True that but MEQs are hardly points efficient at soaking any kind of fire. That's why they're almost always in transports or dropping in to mini maize their exposure to fire. If the scar bikes waste their turn as a 270 point unit popping a 35 point rhino, good. If you get to drop in and take the first shot at them even better.
Honestly the big thing I thought wasn't so hard to handle was the WK. I was thinking it had an invuln but no, it just gets a 5+. And the Strength D is only two shots, sure it sucks if a tank gets aced (Pasks buddy did die to a 6 turn 2) but it's like, okay, that's at best gonna be half his points value and it's the same odds as if someone shot me with a melta or something and one melta gunner is not even close to 300 points.
They're paying to frag you from a safe range. Melta has a huge opportunity cost and usually results in the death of the user.
You are correct that meqs are not point efficient in general, but are particularly poor against S6+ High AP High ROF fire. This kind of fire ignores the T4 and allows units like guardsmen to still take an armor save. On top of this, it can kill marine transports.
So no one is going to address my problem that I need to pay out the ass for 12 TL'd S6 AP- shots with only twelve inch range for a single flyrant that has rather hard and fast limits on how many you can use (all options to get more than two from your first CAD come with substantial taxes) while the Eldar player gets a unit with a threat range pretty much identical in size that gets absurdly more dakka per points?
And before you point out TL, the Eldar have guide flying out their butts.
Martel732 wrote: Guardsman are more efficient at soaking scatterlaser fire. Much more efficient than meqs.
True that but MEQs are hardly points efficient at soaking any kind of fire. That's why they're almost always in transports or dropping in to mini maize their exposure to fire. If the scar bikes waste their turn as a 270 point unit popping a 35 point rhino, good. If you get to drop in and take the first shot at them even better.
Honestly the big thing I thought wasn't so hard to handle was the WK. I was thinking it had an invuln but no, it just gets a 5+. And the Strength D is only two shots, sure it sucks if a tank gets aced (Pasks buddy did die to a 6 turn 2) but it's like, okay, that's at best gonna be half his points value and it's the same odds as if someone shot me with a melta or something and one melta gunner is not even close to 300 points.
They're paying to frag you from a safe range. Melta has a huge opportunity cost and usually results in the death of the user.
You are correct that meqs are not point efficient in general, but are particularly poor against S6+ High AP High ROF fire. This kind of fire ignores the T4 and allows units like guardsmen to still take an armor save. On top of this, it can kill marine transports.
Won't kill Landraiders. Much harder to kill the Flying Landraiders, 6's to hit, 6's to glance, Jink.
Kain wrote: So no one is going to address my problem that I need to pay out the ass for 12 TL'd S6 AP- shots with only twelve inch range for a single flyrant that has rather hard and fast limits on how many you can use (all options to get more than two from your first CAD come with substantial taxes) while the Eldar player gets a unit with a threat range pretty much identical in size that gets absurdly more dakka per points?
And before you point out TL, the Eldar have guide flying out their butts.
They can't address it. Because the scatbike is indefensible. But they might try anyway.
MEQ are actually quite effective vs high-S high-AP. The problem is that ScatterBikes can spam so much of it. If it shoots MEQs off the table, it'll shoot most GEQs off the table, too.
Horde style GEQs might have it a little easier, because they are coated to be thrown away. But non-horde GEQs (Kalabites, Wyches, Guardians, Storm Troopers, Fire Warriors) have it much worse than MEQs.
Remember, for every 2 14ppm SM that die, 3 DAs or 4 Kalabites die.
Bharring wrote: MEQ are actually quite effective vs high-S high-AP. The problem is that ScatterBikes can spam so much of it. If it shoots MEQs off the table, it'll shoot most GEQs off the table, too.
Horde style GEQs might have it a little easier, because they are coated to be thrown away. But non-horde GEQs (Kalabites, Wyches, Guardians, Storm Troopers, Fire Warriors) have it much worse than MEQs.
Remember, for every 2 14ppm SM that die, 3 DAs or 4 Kalabites die.
Not quite. Each cleared wound against the guardsmen only removes 5 pts, whereas each cleared wound against meq removes 14 pts. The guardsmen is only twice as likely to die. This is the exact problem terminators face, except at a lower price point. That's more than a little easier; that's a LOT easier. Since it is impossible to survive against the scat bikes, all you can do is limit how much is lost, and meqs are miserable at that.
MEQs aren't effective against S6+ high ROF because the T4 they paid for goes right out the window. Everyone knows this and that's why S6+ is so popular.
I don't know about kalabites, but I don't expect to see a DA now for a long time. Why have them when you can have a scat bike?
What I wrote about guardsmen is absolutely correct. I didn't drag all those other units into the discussion. If the poster had been using those units. the outcome would likely have been different.
There's a reason I hardly ever see those units you listed other than scouts, pathfinder, and firewarriors.
"Heck, every Eldar troop - even EJB - die faster per shot per point than Marines. "
But the marines don't have the firepower to take advantage of this.
Orks, by the way, suffer tremendously against S6 as well because it ignores their T4.
"Guardsmen and Orks in decent cover - horde GEQ that rely on cheap bodies to soak firepower - don't. But that's what they pay for. "
As I said, the Orks not so much. But the guardsmen getting that 5+ is huge against scatterlasers.
Comparing geq and meq durability against scatbike spam is like comparing grot's and boy'z durability against a deathstrike missile launcher. It doesn't really matter if you loose a bit fewer points - you still loose it all.
Bharring wrote: Marines are poor soakers of S6 compared to Guardsmen. I'd agree with that. I wouldn't say they are generally poor soakers of S6 compared to most.
Then it becomes purely a function of armor save vs cost unless the unit in question is somehow T5. Our definition of "most" diverges at this point. I'm concerned about the units I actually play against, and you are looking at all possible units.
While S6 fire would be great against scatbikes, the marines are quite poor at generating high STR ranged fire. Even marine devastators are totally outclassed by scatbikes, which are troops.
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koooaei wrote: Comparing geq and meq durability against scatbike spam is like comparing grot's and boy'z durability against a deathstrike missile launcher. It doesn't really matter if you loose a bit fewer points - you still loose it all.
But if the IG loses fewer pts, they have more to shoot back on their turn. This is a compounding advantage over several turns.
Bharring wrote: I'm agreeing that ScatterBikes are OP. And that Marines aren't a counter to them.
We have very different metas. I see more Eldar, DE, Tau, and SM (Scouts) combined than IG and Orks.
When the BA codex came out, I was seeing a lot of pretty much everything. But now it's back to Eldar everywhere. Just like when Taudar ruled the roost. Not that the Eldar ever really stopped ruling. Come to think of it, I'd almost hail the Riptide as a counter the scatbikes if I didn't know that they were just going to be D-weaponed off the table. Everything that is strong against S6 is an ideal target for ranged-D. This situation puts me in brain-lock.
They have always been one of the best Troops in the game. Now they have teeth to back it up.
I love when people compare Eldar to Marines without considering how generalized Marines are supposed to be. Marines have ASKNF, grenades and access to Drop Pods. Eldar are very specialized. Unfortunately, this edition (and many previous editions) favors specialized units over generalized, all-comers units.
After some much of this complaining, I am actually glad Eldar are OP. Maybe it will encourage people to finally give up on the shooting game and focus on some CC units. My Daemons never lost a game against 6th ed Eldar because everything was in CC by turn 2-3.
Galef wrote: They have always been one of the best Troops in the game. Now they have teeth to back it up.
I love when people compare Eldar to Marines without considering how generalized Marines are supposed to be. Marines have ASKNF, grenades and access to Drop Pods. Eldar are very specialized. Unfortunately, this edition (and many previous editions) favors specialized units over generalized, all-comers units.
After some much of this complaining, I am actually glad Eldar are OP. Maybe it will encourage people to finally give up on the shooting game and focus on some CC units. My Daemons never lost a game against 6th ed Eldar because everything was in CC by turn 2-3.
You weren't playing the right Eldar. By turn 2-3, many opponents didn't have a list left against Eldar. 2++ rerollable Screamerstar being a notable exception for demons.
ATSKNF is almost a hindrance at this point, drop pods are a total crap shoot, and grenades rely on living to use them. Some generalists. More like shiny targets.
I thought the "right" 6th ed Eldar was Serpent Spam with multiple WKs? Yeah, my hound-rush flying circus hybrid list (that DID NOT have Screamerstar) tabled about 8 of those lists player by different people.
You cant tell me that I am "that" good of a player. Charge Eldar with fast stuff=win
Galef wrote: I thought the "right" 6th ed Eldar was Serpent Spam with multiple WKs? Yeah, my hound-rush flying circus hybrid list (that DID NOT have Screamerstar) tabled about 8 of those lists player by different people.
You cant tell me that I am "that" good of a player. Charge Eldar with fast stuff=win
Galef wrote: I thought the "right" 6th ed Eldar was Serpent Spam with multiple WKs? Yeah, my hound-rush flying circus hybrid list (that DID NOT have Screamerstar) tabled about 8 of those lists player by different people.
You cant tell me that I am "that" good of a player. Charge Eldar with fast stuff=win
I had exactly the same experience with my daemons in 6th edition too.
Hounds, grinders and Be'lakor could all handle it.
I'm not as confident in the chances of melee rush builds against the new dex though.
Jetbikes are a tougher challenge for daemon than serpent spam though, due to their increased firepower and better mobility. That 2d6 assault move count for a lot. Overwatch is something that serpents didn't do either.
New Wraithknights pose a bigger threat than ever, to daemons more than most.
Tarpits no longer work, and stomp attacks have the potential to cause some serious combat resolution scores.
Finally, D-scythes are a possibility now. They alone have the potential to stop many daemon units.
I am glad you brought up Belakor & the Grinders. My list had those as well.
I think it will definitely be harder to table the 7th ed Eldar, but that is a good thing. Daemon rush lists will still be a good counter to Eldar though.
Heck, I have seen Nids do some crazy things to scatterbikes. Drop Devilgaunts or DakkaFexes near the bikes and they die. Dakkaflyrants are an excellent counter to Scatterbikes.
If you string out a large unit of Guants (so that pile-in moves do not bring all of them clumped up around the WK) you can tie up the WK for at least a turn. 2 average stomps would not kill all the Guants this way. If only 1 Guant lives, then the unit has done its job.
Oh, good to know that daemons could handle them. I guess, it's ballance, eh. Too bad when you're playing IG, Orkses, Horde nids and guyz like that. They're not worthy of 'ballance'.
So looking back at that IG vs Eldar fight, it just occurred to me that the Eldar units all had 36" range and the IG had just wyverns that could reach that far, yet somehow the IG were able to stay behind their cover and shoot them up with their shorter range guns... see everything is fine. Just make a gentleman's agreement that the eldar have to charge forward to close range without taking cover.
Galef wrote: I am glad you brought up Belakor & the Grinders. My list had those as well.
I think it will definitely be harder to table the 7th ed Eldar, but that is a good thing. Daemon rush lists will still be a good counter to Eldar though.
Heck, I have seen Nids do some crazy things to scatterbikes. Drop Devilgaunts or DakkaFexes near the bikes and they die. Dakkaflyrants are an excellent counter to Scatterbikes.
If you string out a large unit of Guants (so that pile-in moves do not bring all of them clumped up around the WK) you can tie up the WK for at least a turn. 2 average stomps would not kill all the Guants this way. If only 1 Guant lives, then the unit has done its job.
Any ways I don't feel grinders are that good against 7ed daemons any more they are too slow. And if you DS him with cursed earth close to Eldars, he'll probably just get one turn of shooting in before biting the dust. Baleful torrent is only AP4, while jet bikes and WG has 3+ armor. Also D-scythes and D-cannons will eat him up and the jet bikes can easily jump behind and unload S6 on rear armor easily glancing him to death. Go with heldrakes instead, they'll roast the crap out of jet bikes and WGs and its S7 vector strike is good against Eldar paper airplanes and other invisible deathstars.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And ignore kooaei... posting this crap on a tactics thread.
"Thinking on tactix against eldar is like trying to penetrate a brick wall with your bare hands. Yep, it's probably possible but why bother?"
Grinders actually have a place - both slaanesh and nurgle (or plaguehulks in case of nurgle). Av13 makes them immune to scatbikes, 5++ and cover helps out against s: D and melta a bit. But cheap D-weapons will still be dangerous. However, WG have to get close so treat it as a trade-off and WK...well, pray he misses a lot and doesn't get a 6 while you pass your covers/invuls. Not much else you can really do.
And as mentioned above, slaanesh grinders are pretty fast for footsloging walkers and rending torrent works fine against eldar fleshy stuff. Nurgle grinders pack some shooting and good cover saves. On the other hand, if you're sitting in a ruin, getting 2+ cover and shooting a cannon across the board, it's highly probable that you'll get ignored while he eliminates the rest of the army. Still an option, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, ignore me, i'm posting crap and i'm a fethig troll
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: If you stopped playing Paper all the time and started playing Rock, you might actually beat Scissors every now and then
That's the exact problem i was referring to. You SHOULD be able to hold your ground with any tac force. This stuff about rocks and scissors is only good when you need everything in the army to make it fuction properly. Right now some armies need some specific rocks with allied rocks with going unbound for more rocks to beat other's tac list. I'm not saying it's impossible to beat eldar with orks, ig or nids. Nope, ofc it's possible and it's quite doable. But not with a tac list. I'm pretty sure that orks can handle mass bikes and WK with massed gunline artillery behind ADL and lots of single deffkoptas to fly around the map distracting, eating fire and capping points and a few truckboyz hidden behind blos to counter jetbikes willing to rush pesky grotgunners in mellee. Would it be a tac army for orks? Ofc not. It would work only in this and a few more cases. And that's what's wrong with it.
Don't know, just doesn't feel right. I believe that it's a game design mistake and not something good.
Galef wrote: If you stopped playing Paper all the time and started playing Rock, you might actually beat Scissors every now and then
That's the exact problem i was referring to. You SHOULD be able to hold your ground with any tac force. This stuff about rocks and scissors is only good when you need everything in the army to make it fuction properly. Right now some armies need some specific rocks with allied rocks with going unbound for more rocks to beat other's tac list. I'm not saying it's impossible to beat eldar with orks, ig or nids. Nope, ofc it's possible and it's quite doable. But not with a tac list. I'm pretty sure that orks can handle mass bikes and WK with massed gunline artillery behind ADL and lots of single deffkoptas to fly around the map distracting, eating fire and capping points and a few truckboyz hidden behind blos to counter jetbikes willing to rush pesky grotgunners in mellee. Would it be a tac army for orks? Ofc not. It would work only in this and a few more cases. And that's what's wrong with it.
Don't know, just doesn't feel right. I believe that it's a game design mistake and not something good.
This is exactly how I feel about Imperial Knights when they came out. Most armies have to tailor their list to have a chance at playing a decent game, much less be able to win. 7th ed has killed competitive play, but I still think it is the most "fun" edition I have ever played. I will miss the "all-comers" list, may it rest-in-peace.
Soul grinder is not immune to scatbikes... unless your putting it in a corner somewhere sitting on a objective. So we talking about using it to chase after scat bikes, it has rear AV11 it will be susceptible to shots by scat bikes. A unit of 5 scatbikes will glance it 2.96 times after saves from behind, 2 units will kill it in one turn. And its BS3, the only weapon its good with is the baleful torrent.
If it runs into D-scythes its dead and will easily lose to a WK in CC.
And its not very TAC against other MEQs armies either, too many grav, meltas, and tau fire power in the top meta. You have better chance DS a plague hulk(if FW is allow) tho, at least you can kill something with its AP3 template and hope it survive the turn to shoot again. Sorry you just don't see much soul grinders in top tourney lists.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Soul grinder is not immune to scatbikes... unless your putting it in a corner somewhere sitting on a objective. So we talking about using it to chase after scat bikes, it has rear AV11 it will be susceptible to shots by scat bikes. A unit of 5 scatbikes will glance it 2.96 times after saves from behind, 2 units will kill it in one turn. And its BS3, the only weapon its good with is the baleful torrent.
If it runs into D-scythes its dead and will easily lose to a WK in CC.
And its not very TAC against other MEQs armies either, too many grav, meltas, and tau fire power in the top meta. You have better chance DS a plague hulk(if FW is allow) tho, at least you can kill something with its AP3 template and hope it survive the turn to shoot again. Sorry you just don't see much soul grinders in top tourney lists.
What rubbish. Nobody is denying the efficiency of volume str 6 shots vs AV11, however the only way scatbikes should be hitting the rear of a grinder is if the daemon player is an idiot.
I find grinders to be very efficient in tac lists.
As if it's so easy to get to rear armor. Short range d-weapons put themselves in threat range too. Soulgrinders might not be top goodness, mainly due to gravguns as you've noticed, but you can't take away their effectiveness in this case.
The arguement: "You don't see unit X in top tourney lists" is a trap. You usually don't see massed scouts in top tourney lists. Yet, scout heavy list came second in the last big tourney. Same goes to tactical marines with Calgar. Lictorshame... There are examples of the common tourney netlisting ideology being not an all-end wisdom that's always true.
koooaei wrote: As if it's so easy to get to rear armor. Short range d-weapons put themselves in threat range too. Soulgrinders might not be top goodness, mainly due to gravguns as you've noticed, but you can't take away their effectiveness in this case.
The arguement: "You don't see unit X in top tourney lists" is a trap. You usually don't see massed scouts in top tourney lists. Yet, scout heavy list came second in the last big tourney. Same goes to tactical marines with Calgar. Lictorshame... There are examples of the common tourney netlisting ideology being not an all-end wisdom that's always true.
It's a good point. You don't see a lot of sisters of battle in the top list, but that has more to do with only 1 or 2 people showing up with sisters, if any.
Of course you'll see a good amount of scatter bikes in the top lists, especially when you consider that 1/3rd of the lists that show up will have them.
One word: Battlefocus. They'll move 12", then run again, then shoot you with 36" range. No "troop" unit in 40k is as mobile and heavy hitting as scatbikes, they'll get rear armor hits in if you decide to chase after them with a walker... There is a reason so many people are complaining about scatbikes.
Besides its not a soul grinder will be top priority for them anyways, AP4 weapons are not really a big deal. Scatbikes will most likely focus more on our flesh hounds and screamers, since those 2 units are more probable of catching them. D-scythes and fire dragons will take care of 1 or 2 grinders and wall of death is a betch.
Byte wrote: So now that's its been a little bit. Are the Eldar jetbikes really shaping up to be as game breaking as predicated by so many?
I don't know if they are "game breaking" but it is a major boost in their power and usefulness. I think time will tell, they can be spammed, but they cost a fair bit, so they take away other options if you do.
SonsofVulkan wrote: they'll get rear armor hits in if you decide to chase after them with a walker...
Even with 12" movement and 36" range it's still very difficult to get to rear armor.
But yep, you should be more concerned about other stuff ranther than a few walkers getting shot to death.
But i'm pretty sure that an unboud list of soulgrinders can pick on tac eldar.
But it's really easy to get side armor.
Which happens to be AV 13.
Which, for those of you slow on the pickup, means scatbikes can't hurt him at all, except from rear armor, which is extremely difficult to get to against a decent player.
good summary though. 
I think time will tell, they can be spammed, but they cost a fair bit, so they take away other options if you do. 