So I was wondering what the worst unit in each codex was, what are peoples thoughts?
I'll kick us off with the Tyranid Pyrovore. Whilst the pyrovore has a reasonable model it suffers from such terrible rules that I've never seen one in action! I struggle to find anything worse in the nid dex, even with the slight buff last years book provided this little guy.
Eldar Codex: Storm Guardians. What is the deal with these S3 T3 5+ guys fighting in close combat anyway? Compared to Guardian Defenders, they exchange 1 shot at 12" S4 AP5 Bladestorm for 1 more melee attack at S3 AP-.
Grey Knights Codex: Rhinos ad Razorbacks. The whole army is better off Deepstriking or Shunting around. These units are not even Psychic Pilot.
For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.
Orks: probably Gorkanaut. Too expensive and too fragile - every army packs guns that can kill it in a turn without much trouble. It gets killed in the first turn or two like any walker. At least the Morkanaut has a 5++ and can give it to a wide area around the base.
Tyranids: Tyrant Guard. I was tempted by the Pyrovore and Genestealers, but base Tyrant Guard can't even get into a pod with the Hive Tyrant they need to protect. They give you some extra wounds, but that's not what you need to make a walking Tyrant worthwhile.
Orks: Just... just so many options for worst. Where to begin? Umm, classic Deff Dreads. Even worse than the Orkanauts. Bad shooting, not even that good in close combat, no buffs.
Space Marines: The poor Tactical Marine's got nothing without that Drop Pod. Used to be one of the most reliable units in the game for being able to take on anything, now their only function seems to be meeting the minimum troop requirement while still giving you a couple good guns in a pod.
Necrons: Scarab Swarms (took a hit to the face with the nerfbat in February)
Imperial Guard: Ogryns with either Rippers (expensive and barely any damage output) or Power Mauls and 5++ shields (hideously expensive and still suffer from gak initiative, WS, and no real armor save). Also, cannot function without investing another 25 points for a priest. At least the Rough Riders are cheap and can cripple a non-terminator unit if they get the charge. Ogryns never kill enough to make their points back. Only Bullgryns are sorta good in that they can be used as a mobile ADL for Pask and his squad though at the price you might as well just buy another Leman Russ with upgrades.
Chaos: Cultists. Sitting on objectives completely out of LoS is all they are good at.
Space Marines: Scout Bikers.
Tau: Vespid Stingwings. Only good in one situation: catching 3+ save infantry in the open.
Here's my thoughts on the worst units in each codex I own:
Dark Angels: Land Speeder Vengeance. Come on, 140 points for a vehicle with a land speeder profile and a weapon that will cause it to kill itself easier than the enemy?
Tau Empire: Aun'shi. This guy is pretty worthless. He doesn't buff your army, and he only does anything at all if he is in CC, something Tau generally try to avoid.
Chaos Space Marines: Warp Talons. Too expensive for what they do, and too fragile to actually make it into combat.
Khorne Daemonkin: Bloodcrushers. Expensive, and despite 3 wounds are pretty easy to kill since there are plenty of S8 weapons out there that can ID them.
Sir Arun wrote: Chaos: Cultists. Sitting on objectives completely out of LoS is all they are good at.
You really think Cultists are the worst? They're only 50 points for a squad, so they're the most cost efficient way in the codex of getting around your troop tax. If nothing else, that gives them some sort of edge in the codex. The real problem is what you spend those saved points on - there's not too much that's worth it. The true worst unit in the codex needs to be worse in pretty much every way.
I'd say the worst unit in the Chaos Space Marine codex is the Dreadnaught. Just take a Defiler if you really want a walker. Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, and Khorne Berserkers are all pretty terrible too, though they are all better than the Dark Apostle and Warpsmith. The Chaos Dreadnaught is the real bottom of the barrel. Not even a Drop Pod would make me want to take them.
Surprised nobody mentioned the canoness. Especially if you restrict yourself to not using special characters or have no intention of buying fortifications. My beloved jump canoness went to...technically I can't even field her due to jump conversion and the way I play means I have no use for her...at all. Which is why I'm still waiting for a that shiny new dex.
For CSM it wold have to be possessed for me and the predator. Mainly because I hate randumb and I've forgotten the predator even exists at times XD even before IA13.
Roknar wrote: Surprised nobody mentioned the canoness. Especially if you restrict yourself to not using special characters or have no intention of buying fortifications. My beloved jump canoness went to...technically I can't even field her due to jump conversion and the way I play means I have no use for her...at all. Which is why I'm still waiting for a that shiny new dex.
I thought about it, but skipped her. She at least can be used if you need a super cheap HQ to get a detachment.
Cirronimbus wrote:For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.
Desubot wrote:Tau is vespids.
SM:...Techmarine and servitor????
CSM cant really find a use for mutilators personally
IG: Various ogryns
Dunno Guys, I think it's Aun'shi. Melee is no place for a S3 T3 model costing 60p more than the base model - who already does the important stuff.
CSM: Rubric Marines - Simply cost too much and not enough firepower. They should get 2x heavy weapon choice imo.
SM: Dreadnaughts - No saving these things. Cost too much especially with obligatory pod, too fragile due to vehicle rule instead of being a MC. Need to be cheaper or walkers need a new damage table or something.
Dark Eldar: Incubi - No grenades and need an aspect power.
Nids: Melee Fex or Warriors - Big melee bugs just don't work in general. Warriros still overcosted.
Cirronimbus wrote:For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.
Desubot wrote:Tau is vespids.
SM:...Techmarine and servitor????
CSM cant really find a use for mutilators personally
IG: Various ogryns
Dunno Guys, I think it's Aun'shi. Melee is no place for a S3 T3 model costing 60p more than the base model - who already does the important stuff.
To be fair the majority of special characters are terrabad.
But aun'shi can be used to make some silly IC units.
Verviedi wrote: Necrons- Scarabs
Guard- Hellhound
Skitarii- Ironstrider Balistarii
Space Marines- Terminators
Orks- Gorka/Morkanaut
Tyranids- Tyrant Guard
Harlequins- Voidweaver
Eldar- Storm Guardians
Chaos Space Marines- Thousand Sons
Grey Knights- Purgation Squads
Dark Angels- Dark Talon
Dark Eldar- Succubus
Hellhound vs orks, guard, Nids and even daemons are pretty good. Your saying you rate roughriders as better than them.
Also i know terminators are pricy but thss with a good hq or two smash face vs most things. For marines I'd say numerous things are worse but to pick one I'd have to go with scout bikers
Roknar wrote: Surprised nobody mentioned the canoness. Especially if you restrict yourself to not using special characters or have no intention of buying fortifications. My beloved jump canoness went to...technically I can't even field her due to jump conversion and the way I play means I have no use for her...at all. Which is why I'm still waiting for a that shiny new dex.
I thought about it, but skipped her. She at least can be used if you need a super cheap HQ to get a detachment.
I suppose there is that. Then again, I can't think of a unit that puts (me) off an entire codex all on it's own ^^. The codex is still very much viable, at least in my group. Totally wrecked a friends dark angels. But to me the HQ is the leader of my army and should feel appropriately important/valuable/characterful. And since I'm not big on gearing my sisters for melee, except repentia or penitents (and we all know how well that works without allies). She's little more than glorified leadership buff to me lol.
MWHistorian wrote: SOB: Penitent Engine or Repentia. They're both working really hard to beat the other in crapiness.
SM: Dreadnaught. Tac termies, assault marines.
CSM: Mutilators, warp talons, dark apostles, stock land raider, Thousand Sons, Khorne 'Zerkers, Defilers.
Does access to melta really take BA ASM from one of the worst units in the SM to a "must take" that every one seems to think they are? Or are ASM not bad enough to be on this list really?
SM: Almost every iconic unit: Tac marines, Dreadnoughts, ASM, Tac Termies, Devestators, pretty much all the stuff which comes to mind when one thinks "Space Marines"
Instead the army is strongest with Centurions, Assault Terminators, Sternguard, vindicators, Storm Ravens
Imperial Guard: Commissar. Don't get me wrong, Rough Riders are bad, Ogryn are basically worthless, but in a codex where so many units are bad, it helps to focus on one truly ultimate useless unit. Commissars take the cake; compared to a Priest they aren't ICs, can only be added to certain units, grant stubborn rather than fearless, kill a model which, in some cases, the enemy can choose when the squad fails a leadership test and cost the same as a Priest who grants fearless, re-roll to hit on the first round of melee, and can grant his unit re-roll failed saves.
Commissars are probably the most useless, redundant unit in a codex full of useless redundant units. At least hellhounds and Ogryns actually do something other units can't necessarily do, even if they do it poorly.
Chute82 wrote: Orks.. Deff dread, nobz unit, kans, gork naught, mega nobz, battle wagon, ect. Ect.
Mega nobz and battlewagons?!?!
Well I don't use meganobz myself, but I have seen them do some work.
But battlewagons? Battlewagons are easily one of the best units in the codex. Turn 2 charge with 40 boyz? Yes please.
Yeah, saying that Meganobz and BWs are bad units just means you either don't play orks or don't know how to use them properly. Even standard Nob units can be good at taking apart vehicles, ordinance and light infantry.
For Blood Angels..?
I feel like I should say things like Dreadnoughts, Scout Bikers, Vanguard Veterans, Baal Predator etc.
But then again, they're only considered bad when compared to similar choices in the same FOC slot.
VV's for example aren't really the worst unit that Blood Angels have, even tough no-one ever takes them.
They just happen to be in the same slot as DC, that get FnP, Fearless, Rage etc for 1 ppm more.
Ah, enough with the chit-chat, Captain Tycho, obviously!
Drager wrote: So I was wondering what the worst unit in each codex was, what are peoples thoughts?
I'll kick us off with the Tyranid Pyrovore. Whilst the pyrovore has a reasonable model it suffers from such terrible rules that I've never seen one in action! I struggle to find anything worse in the nid dex, even with the slight buff last years book provided this little guy.
Pyrovores are awesome.. drop them in burn stuff.. and when they die they hit everything on the table (actually have a read of their rules and laugh)
Drager wrote: So I was wondering what the worst unit in each codex was, what are peoples thoughts?
I'll kick us off with the Tyranid Pyrovore. Whilst the pyrovore has a reasonable model it suffers from such terrible rules that I've never seen one in action! I struggle to find anything worse in the nid dex, even with the slight buff last years book provided this little guy.
Pyrovores are awesome.. drop them in burn stuff.. and when they die they hit everything on the table (actually have a read of their rules and laugh)
I'm pretty sure most people would throw the BRB at your face if you legitimately tried to use the pyrovore A-bomb.
And eww, elite slot wastage, use those for malanthropes or neurothropes.
Guard: Choose from the elites slot, take your pick! After that it is sentinels, the hydra, the standard leman russ battle tank, the bassilisk, and to some degree the chimera and the taurox prime.
Gk: Rhinos and Razorbacks, still yet to find a place for them in my list.
IG: Had problems with a lot of things being sup par, a couple of the LR variants, maybe the nova cannon one, rough riders have never done much for me either and ogryns... Whoever said Hellhounds are bad has never used them against crons!
I'm gonna have to go with rough riders. They just simply don't have a function or role. Pretty much useless, don't synergize well with anything, don't hit hard enough in melee or shooting, die like an expensive guardsmen, and take away slots from much better options.
Ratlings aren't much further behind, same goes for Ogryn.
Savageconvoy wrote: For Tau it's a full unit of shield drones. Try and use that squad.
Is their 4++ against shooting only? 'Cause if not, they'd make a half decent assault unit. They get a reasonable amount of attacks on the charge at Str 4, I4 and that 4++ means they can hold out for a while.
CSM: Mutilators. In addition to having one of the worst models I've seen in ages, they have less CC than terminators, since the termies can use their chainfist in consecutive turns. The Defiler certainly give the Muties a run for their money, but then it does actually provide something: a long range AP3 pie plate to force those jetbikes to jink, or at least make the Eldar player hide out of LOS and pray for a botched assault move. (Dis)honourable mention to Warp Talons, since they're in the same slot as Raptors who can take melta guns and outdamage Talons on a point for point basis against everything bar marines, though at least Talons can get a 5++ (or 4++) save. If you doo need to kill MEQ squads though, Talons can do a passable job.
SoB: Celestians. Repentia have a specialised place at taking down superheavies, Pengines are at least immune to most small arms, but Celestians are simply Battle sisters with a CC focus who cost more points and lose ObSec. No thanks. If for some reason I have already taken 6 troop choices, Celestine, Jacobus, 3x Exos, 1 Sera and a pair of Doms, then I'd rather ally stuff in than take Celestians. At least Repentia can act as counterassault by hiding behind your exos if required.
SM: Tough call, but probably tactical terminators since sternguard shoot better, can come down T1 in a pod, cost less for 5 guys with a transport and specials while competeing for the same slot. Given the amount of AP2 around these days, there's not even much difference in survivability. Stalkers give them a solid go for the title though, as the 'Talon is better AA and the heavy slot is kinda full. (Dis)Honourable mention to the Whirlwind, since the TFC does the same job much better in the same slot for a pittance more.
Daemons: Changeling. If I wanted a cheap beatstick, I'd take skulltaker for a handful more points, since the Changeling doesn't get weapon stats or armour, so he's still going to die like a punk the second he copies anything worth fighting. Not to mention that the Daemons codex is not really short on combat characters.
Tau: Vespid. Crisis suits do it better, with more armour, more shots and jsj.
Eldar: Storm guardians. Has no place in combat since he's basically a more expensive guardsman and the rest of the Eldar Dex is better in so many ways. Unless you're trying to tone down your army or play a super fluffy list, I just don't see the point. Why are these guys not a weapon swap option for normal guardians?
DE: Wyches. Duh, do I really need to expand on this?
'Nids: Pyrovore. 40 points for a heavy flamer? Nope.
Guard: The obvious one (Commisar) is ruled out for me, since going to ground behind an ADL for a 2+ cover is pretty win, especially when you can't break due to summary execution. Can't do that if you're fearless. Technically Ogryns provide CC ability, though I can't imagine ever taking them. I'll pick on Wyrdvane psychers, since the primaris psycher does everything they do for 10 points less, doesn't take a slot (though the elite slot is hardly crowded with good options) and can hide in a blob of 50 guardsmen handing out buffs like prescience, endurance, perfect timing etc. Everything else in the Guard Dex at least provides something you can't get somewhere else, even if it's not a good option, it is at least an option.
DA: Their speeder. You can already take plasma cannons by the bucketload, why stick on on such a pricy unit with only 2 HP? The fliers are bad, but at least offer something that nothing else in the codex does.
BA: Tempted to say VV here, since competing in the same slot against Sang Guard and DC means you're in for a bad time, but they can bring fast moving stormshields and power weapons, and get a formation benefit of free weapons, so Tycho gets the nod here. A melta gun and no weapon in an HQ slot where HQ slots are at a premium means you get to stay on the bus.
Orks: Flash Gits gets my vote, since they provide more unreliable anti-infantry shooting on a fragile platform that requires relatively short ranges to work, while being expensive and only haveing a 6+ save and competing for slots in what is possibly the most contested and crowded slot in all of 40k.
GK: Purgation squad. Same deal as normal PA troops, but take a heavy slot that could be better used for a dreadknight. Yes, they can take 4 heavies, but they're not relentless or S&P, so the psycannon/psilencer is pretty useless and DK's can take a torrent (heavy) incinerator in the same slot and be better at virtually everything else as well, so why bother with these guys?
Necrons: Anni barge, since it just provides more shots that glance on a 6 against AV13 at 24", which a bog standard warrior can already provide in greater quantity. Man, if you'd told me anni barges would be the worst unit in the dex last edition, I'd have had you locked up.
Ugh. I play Eldar and I want to build a Raven Guard army as well. I've seen two comments that make me sigh regarding Space Marines: bolter armed marines and Assault Marines. Bolters are standard issue for their Troops and well a Raven Guard army without Assault Marines just doesn't seem interesting. Oh well, but I am glad for the forewarning.
Guardian Defenders seem to be the worst unit in my experience.
Eadartri wrote: Ugh. I play Eldar and I want to build a Raven Guard army as well. I've seen two comments that make me sigh regarding Space Marines: bolter armed marines and Assault Marines. Bolters are standard issue for their Troops and well a Raven Guard army without Assault Marines just doesn't seem interesting. Oh well, but I am glad for the forewarning.
Use Raptors chapter tactics. They have the option to switch their bolters and bolt pistols into Heavy 1 Rending weapons for no additional cost. Non-bulky infantry get Scout and Stealth on turn one, as well.
Worst unit in the SM codex: Servitors. They have no function whatsoever.
Thanks for this idea. I'm not seeing the Raptors chapter tactics in the codex. I guess I had thought as a successor chapter they would have the same tactics as the Raven Guard. What is the page number?
Orks: Every walker in our stupid army, from 50pt Kans all the way to the Stompa itself. Also I personally think Meganobz suck. To many points for a 3 man squad that does the same task as a unit of boyz or regular nobz. 1 round of shooting at Megaobz with a Lascannon Dev squad and poof their goes your investment.
hmm......Ork Nob bikers are useless now to, WAY to many points for a biker nob and realistically the only difference between them and a regular bike is +1 wounds and +1 strength for over twice the cost.
Eadartri wrote: Thanks for this idea. I'm not seeing the Raptors chapter tactics in the codex. I guess I had thought as a successor chapter they would have the same tactics as the Raven Guard. What is the page number?
I'm not 100% sure but I believe their rules (and their special HQ, Lias Issodon) are in Imperial Armour Volume Nine - The Badab War - Part One.
Eadartri wrote: Thanks for this idea. I'm not seeing the Raptors chapter tactics in the codex. I guess I had thought as a successor chapter they would have the same tactics as the Raven Guard. What is the page number?
Eldar - storm guardians, shining spears, wraithlords
If you want to play eldar without being accused of cheese, take those. They're all terrible. I've lost count of the wraithlords I've killed before they inflicted a single wound. I've never faced the other 2 units because they're so awful nobody even attempts to use them around here.
Tau: Vespid or Sun Stark Bomber. Vespids are outshone by crisis suits. The Sun Shark's drones still cannot fire its weapon with both profiles due to skyfire an lack of FAQ.
Necrons: Lychguard with warscythes or Annihilation barges. Both are just too expensive for being slow. Lychguard be taken with shield and sword which makes them super durable, Annihilation barges got hit reaaly hard by the hefty point increase combined with the Tesla nerf. It has too short range for not jinking/moving 12 which deprives it of its firepower. (Us poor Necrons, right? Just take Night scythes instead.
Space Marines: There is a lot of awful models there. I would likely go with Assault centurions for being slow, expensive and lack a decent delivery option.
Oh yes, the Sun Shark. Can generate bombs after dropping one on a 2+, but since it doesn't start with any, can't drop one to generate more. One of the more lulzy bits of rules writing they've managed. I'd still rate Vespid as worse than the bomber with no bombs.
It's a real shame that some of the units mentioned are awful, because most of them look good and ooze character and background - especially the Chaos units.
If GW could design some balanced rules, you wouldn't have so many redundant units.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It's a real shame that some of the units mentioned are awful, because most of them look good and ooze character and background - especially the Chaos units.
If GW could design some balanced rules, you wouldn't have so many redundant units.
Drasius wrote: Oh yes, the Sun Shark. Can generate bombs after dropping one on a 2+, but since it doesn't start with any, can't drop one to generate more. One of the more lulzy bits of rules writing they've managed. I'd still rate Vespid as worse than the bomber with no bombs.
Also the sun-shark has some pansy ass bombs.
S5 AP5.
Jeeze, because you know what the Tau really need? More S5 AP5.
Chute82 wrote: Orks.. Deff dread, nobz unit, kans, gork naught, mega nobz, battle wagon, ect. Ect.
Mega nobz and battlewagons?!?!
Well I don't use meganobz myself, but I have seen them do some work.
But battlewagons? Battlewagons are easily one of the best units in the codex. Turn 2 charge with 40 boyz? Yes please.
Yeah, saying that Meganobz and BWs are bad units just means you either don't play orks or don't know how to use them properly. Even standard Nob units can be good at taking apart vehicles, ordinance and light infantry.
Battle wagon since the point increase for no reason, plus the big nurf to deff roller.
Been playing Orks since 2nd Ed it's the only army I ever owned.
Not much tactics when it comes to BW drive forwarded with kff mek and dump your 20 boyz, really hard tactic to figure out.
and don't forget the mega nobz, who cost as much as a terminator and suffer the same downfalls as them. To expensive, no dakka, and they have to have a 110point Transpoirt to be slightly useful.
Necron: Probably destroyers at this point, since flayed ones got better? Maybe Lychguard.
While having to admit to not having tried destroyers, they too got a lot better in the new codex. Multiple wounds, reanimation, jsj and hurtful dakka. I would rank them as one of the best units in the codex, absolutely not the worst. In fact the destroyer cult us likely the next purchase my murder robots are going to see.
the_scotsman wrote: Marines: I'm going with tactical terminators or assault marines. Maybe Shrike, because not only is he awful he makes your WHOLE ARMY awful.
CSM: Posessed or Mutilators
Orks: Killa Kanz (Gwarsh let's nerf them and also make them cost 40% more) or Wartrakks.
Tau: Vespids
Tyranid: Biovores
Necron: Probably destroyers at this point, since flayed ones got better? Maybe Lychguard.
Eldar: rangers are god awful. Idc what people say about the codex but rangers are a lump of turd.
Fun challenge mode: compare any multiple of these units to a wraithknight and laugh at GWs point system.
13 possessed=wraithknight.
In what universe are biovores worse than pyrovores?
Gonna have to disagree on commissars being the worst unit in the guard codex. In a foot guard list they are amazing. I run 250 men all of which are MSU apart from 2 35 man blobs of conscripts (which I put my commissars in). This means I get to roll my orders on LD 9 which is great for FRFSRF and Forwards for the Emprah!
I don't really want them to do anything in combat as if they do get into it I want them to fold asap so my army can they shot the crap out of the enemy unit next turn. If I do need them to hold the worst thing that can happen is a conscript gets killed.
Overall, Commissars are an amazing unit for conscripts. If you are going full blob guard you put your priest in your guardsmen blobs (with voxs) and you commissars in conscript blobs and this way you are almost guaranteed orders to go off across your entire army.
Ffyllotek wrote: Necrons. Annihilation barge. And that says something about the units in the codex!
I would have said the C'Tan or Monolith. I still use my barges, not too shabby when compared to other options with similar firepower. Wont ever use my C'tan though, and wont ever buy a monolith.
For daemons - Furies of chaos. LD2 jump infantry. Only redeeming thing is they are nasty cheap, however they don't have legit models. The LD2 is for when you win combat and the entire unit explodes from instability.
After the furies, probably one of the various chariots daemons have access to. No one wants a 10/10/10 HP2 vehicle that costs as much as the daemon chariots.
For Space Wolves - Probably anything with the "Claws" suffix. Blood claws, sky claws and swift claws. BS/WS3 is a huge hit to a marine. GH/WG do everything BC do, but better.
After that, I dunno... thralls? Maybe one of the imperial tanks?
Could never find a use for Landspeeders in Marines or Sentinels in IG.
Not saying they're utterly useless just cant find a role for them compared to other units or slots.
Too weak armor and HP-wise in respective slots.
Ratius wrote: Could never find a use for Landspeeders
Typhoons are excellent blob killers, if your opponent has bad spacing. A speeder with 2x multi-meltas can deep strike behind a vehicle and pop it. A well-placed outflanking LSS with 5 chainsword scouts can sweep most troops off an objective.
DE: Hellions and Bloodbrides. The former are basically comparable to Reavers, but worse in every way. The latter are elite wyches. Just think about that for a moment. Wyches are, at best, a tarpit unit... and someone at GW decided that what DE really needed was an Elite tarpit. So, do these super-wyches bring anything great to the table? Fleshbane? Rending? Shred? Nope. I think they get some extra S3 attacks though. Because if there's anything DE need, it's S3 attacks.
Not units per se, but I'd also like to nominate the entire DE wargear section. Why does my archon - who supposedly has access to the deadliest weapons available - only have access to 4 weapons, 2 of which are outright worthless and none are remotely worth their cost. Furthermore, why are our weapons so pitiful in general? I can accept not having high strength, but where's all our AP2? Where's our Fleshbane? Where's our Poison 2+ or even 3+? Shouldn't Haemonculi weapons have diabolical effects that makes them rightly feared? Instead, the best they can offer is a weapon that occasionally ignores armour, and a glove that makes an enemy it wounds (no small feat for a S3 character) a little dizzy.
Necrons: Probably monolith and scarabs. The nerf to their armour-shredding ability was understandable. The cost increase and reduction in save were just baffling. With regard to the monolith, it's now lost everything that made it useful and got nothing in exchange.
IG: Rough Riders, Ogryns. The former don't really seem to fit in anywhere. They don't synergise with anything, and it seems you could accomplish better results just using ranged weapons. Ogryns seem to be a counter-assault unit, but one which can't actually beat other assault units, require constant babysitting and have no mobility.
vipoid wrote: IG: Rough Riders, Ogryns. The former don't really seem to fit in anywhere. They don't synergise with anything, and it seems you could accomplish better results just using ranged weapons. Ogryns seem to be a counter-assault unit, but one which can't actually beat other assault units, require constant babysitting and have no mobility.
IG: ogryns and heavy weapons squads
Ogryns are strictly worse than bullgryns. For 5 points more, ogryns go from a 5+ save to a 3+ save, and a 4+ cover save for units behind them. Bullgryns themselves are overpriced, but they're still better than ogryns.
Heavy weapons squads are roflbad. The fact that people will take 30 man blobs with 3 heavy weapons over a single heavy weapons squad really shows that. They're the unit in the game that would most benefit from IG orders, yet they're ld 7, can't take a vox, pay a 50% markup for the base unit, and are insta-dead from S6. On top of it all, they're a pain in the butt to transport. You might give them a commissar, but if he executes someone the unit is still useless. You might give them a primaris psyker for ld 9, but now you're doubling the cost of the unit. Even their bare-bones kit with mortars are strictly worse than the wyvern, which for 5 more points gets 12/10/10, another blast template, twin-linked, shred, and ignores cover. Missile launchers are stupid expensive and way worse at killing vehicles than they used to be, lascannons turn them into a static 105 point unit with T3 5+ save and 6 wounds.
I really have to disagree with everyone's view on rough riders and hellhounds. Both excel if you start them in reserves, take 5 rough riders with two flamers. They are fantastic at clearing your backfield. On the turn they arrive your rough riders move 12" and double flamer any enemy unit foolish enough to get within 12" of your table edge, as a bonus if they survive that turn your riders can now torch and inflict seven S5 Ap3 hits on the next enemy unit they see. All for a unit that costs 65 points. On the turn it arrives, hellhound will instantly remove almost any unit that gets within 24" of your table edge. True, the hellhound is overpriced, and the bane wolf and devil dog are just bad.
I don't know how people can think sentinels are the worst. 40 points for AV 12/10/10 HP2 is pretty darn meaty.
Ogryns are strictly worse than bullgryns. For 5 points more, ogryns go from a 5+ save to a 3+ save, and a 4+ cover save for units behind them. Bullgryns themselves are overpriced, but they're still better than ogryns.
Heavy weapons squads are roflbad. The fact that people will take 30 man blobs with 3 heavy weapons over a single heavy weapons squad really shows that. They're the unit in the game that would most benefit from IG orders, yet they're ld 7, can't take a vox, pay a 50% markup for the base unit, and are insta-dead from S6. On top of it all, they're a pain in the butt to transport. You might give them a commissar, but if he executes someone the unit is still useless. You might give them a primaris psyker for ld 9, but now you're doubling the cost of the unit. Even their bare-bones kit with mortars are strictly worse than the wyvern, which for 5 more points gets 12/10/10, another blast template, twin-linked, shred, and ignores cover. Missile launchers are stupid expensive and way worse at killing vehicles than they used to be, lascannons turn them into a static 105 point unit with T3 5+ save and 6 wounds.
I really have to disagree with everyone's view on rough riders and hellhounds. Both excel if you start them in reserves, take 5 rough riders with two flamers. They are fantastic at clearing your backfield.
So are Wyverns - only they can do it from turn one and the other side of the field.
I run 3 Armored Sentinels with 3 Plasma Cannons for 150 Pts. They are always 2" from an Ammo Dump and reroll gets hots. They always make their points back and have been awesome.
Comparing that with a 155 pt Executioner with no sponsons (3 PC templates).
Sents have 6 HPs at AV12
Executioner has 3 HPS at AV14
They are usually comparable in game. If you have a Fast Attack slot available, I highly recommend the Sentinels with that loadout. Very very good.
Chootum wrote: I run 3 Armored Sentinels with 3 Plasma Cannons for 150 Pts. They are always 2" from an Ammo Dump and reroll gets hots. They always make their points back and have been awesome.
I don't use the ammunition dump, but I do use plasma cannon sentinels as well.
Gets hot is always a concern, but having 50pt AV12 plasma cannons is frequently useful.
the_scotsman wrote: Marines: I'm going with tactical terminators or assault marines. Maybe Shrike, because not only is he awful he makes your WHOLE ARMY awful.
CSM: Posessed or Mutilators
Orks: Killa Kanz (Gwarsh let's nerf them and also make them cost 40% more) or Wartrakks.
Tau: Vespids
Tyranid: Biovores
Necron: Probably destroyers at this point, since flayed ones got better? Maybe Lychguard.
Eldar: rangers are god awful. Idc what people say about the codex but rangers are a lump of turd.
Fun challenge mode: compare any multiple of these units to a wraithknight and laugh at GWs point system.
13 possessed=wraithknight.
Biovores are not bad. Pyrovores are much, much worse. And Destroyers are ridiculous, as are Lychguard.
Yeah, I think the new Destroyers are great. 2 wounds gives them a lot of extra survivability, the new RP means they aren't punished for being in small units, and JSJ means they can often avoid taking return fire at all.
My only sadness is that the Destroyer Lord got made much worse as a result (JSJ really isn't what you want to see on a melee unit).
Amoras wrote: Pyrovores are bad but atleast i can see themm doing something in a pod.
The maleceptor however...i can't find a single use for it. Every other mc in the deck seems better while beign cheaper.
I'd forgotten about that epic pile of fail.
I suppose you could argue that it's not actually in the codex. But yeah, those rules are terribad. 205 points for a ML2 psyker that only knows Powers of the Hive Mind and an awful WC2 power that does max d3 wounds, and still has to roll to hit at BS3. Who the heck has enough warp charges to cast that three times anyway? Should have been a nova power like psychic scream. Powers of the Hive mind needs to be fixed anyway, those powers are too hit or miss.
vipoid wrote: Yeah, I think the new Destroyers are great. 2 wounds gives them a lot of extra survivability, the new RP means they aren't punished for being in small units, and JSJ means they can often avoid taking return fire at all.
My only sadness is that the Destroyer Lord got made much worse as a result (JSJ really isn't what you want to see on a melee unit).
I think the best use for the Destroyer Lord is to stick it in a unit of Deathmarks or Flayed Ones and deep strike it in to give them extra punch. The destroyer units do not benefit overly much from having one. He is a tax, a hefty enough one to warrant some plan for him.
Tau: Aun'Shi, vespids, and outside of high AV hunting/missile pod spam, crisis suits (lets face it, the codex has better units for everything but AV14)
Eldar: Obviously wraithknights, or scatbikes. (/sarcasm just incase)
Lychguard, particularly in an Orikanstar, are death incarnate for any assault unit. Not that they'll die to shooting too rapidly, either.
Scarabs are cheap and plentiful wound sponges, and can be produced for free.
Anni Barges aren't as good, but they are pretty durable platforms that can punish Jetbikes, among others.
Monoliths, though... Largely useless. LOS? You can do better, for much less price. Teleport? Good luck landing it. Shooting? Meh for points. They have some interesting formations, but then you're talking high point games.
They need to either return Living Metal to the original effect, or allow it to fire everything at full BS. It's stupidly slow, has terrible firing archs, etc. It just has no good use in the army, and most other armies might be amused by it, but I doubt anyone looks at a Monolith and would EVER make it a priority target. And for its point, it should be.
I disagree with the previous post about Eldar's worst unit being storm guardians, they are 72 points now, and get 2 free power weapons and 2 free melta guns (if you get 24 of them plus a vyper and stuff.. they then run 6",) and for 216 points for 24 models they are impressive.
In fact point for point storm guardians are good vs any units that are NOT close combat troops (including marines)
My candidate for the worst unit in the eldar codex is wraithblades with swords.
Chootum wrote: I run 3 Armored Sentinels with 3 Plasma Cannons for 150 Pts. They are always 2" from an Ammo Dump and reroll gets hots. They always make their points back and have been awesome.
Comparing that with a 155 pt Executioner with no sponsons (3 PC templates).
Sents have 6 HPs at AV12
Executioner has 3 HPS at AV14
They are usually comparable in game. If you have a Fast Attack slot available, I highly recommend the Sentinels with that loadout. Very very good.
Will try! Most other loadouts on these are crap though.
Lesee: Pretty much most units for Chaos Space Marines. However as one would expect, the worst of the worst tends to be Warp Talons, Defilers, and mutilators.
Da Stormlord wrote: Nercrons would probably be a doom scythe for me, because of the way I play. Tau would be aun'shi, I think vespids are actually really good
The Doom Scythe is not bad at all (Though, the Hemlock Wraithfighter craps all over it. Thanks GW),
For me, the worst in the Necron codex are as follows:
1. Trazyn the Infinite: Doesn't really serve a purpose. Doesn't buff anything, and isn't a CC beatstick. I'd still use him in a fun game, though.
2. Transcendant Ctan: 250 points for the squishiness of a Ctan, is outshined by the Wraithknight still, only damage output is random, and his Writhing Worldscape ability is borderline useless. Still has a place in some lists, but nowhere near an optimized choice.
3. Annihilation Barge: No longer has a place. "Heavy Weapons" platform, with 6" movement if you want to shoot, a second gun that means nothing, hindered by being Open-topped, and it's main gun has AP- and 24" range. The gun itself is fine, but the platform is useless. 10 points more gets you a Night Scythe.
4. Scarabs: More expensive, squishy, and commonly seen as a tax for the Canoptek Harvest. Has melee Gauss, but against targets T7 and higher, they'll be insta-gibbed while trying to tarpit it, and against vehicles, you could bring more durable models (Warriors) that do the same thing from range.
Overall I like everything in the codex, and externally, none of the above units are terribad, but internally, there are way better options.
I disagree on Scarabs being bad, as you can spawn more. I have seen some really nasty scarab farms list using a chronometron cryptek and harvest.
Suddenly when a squad of 10 becomes 20 and they have shred they become a different story, Even the strongest enemies will only kill a handful, and they start multiplying rapidly,
Scarabs I think are more situational than actually outright "bad". As an IG player, they're still extremely scary for me, as they're fast with no way to slow them down short of killing them, and even just a couple depleted bases making it into base contact with an infantry or artillery unit can win combat, on top of the fact that (unless you're shooting massed S6+ at them), they effectively only care about every 3rd wound (or less depending on where the shooting is coming from) and can be reinforced and play shennanigans with placement.
As for Annihilation Barges, honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit itself, its not like it's an ineffective unit or hideously overpriced or anything like that, but that it's just the internal balanced that is wonky, as you're probably usually taking Night Scythes anyway, and they remain one of the cheapest and most powerful flyers in the game even with their recent nerfing.
As for my selection of worst units....
For IG, as much as I want to point out things like Scions/Stormtroopers, Ogryn, Battlecannon Russ tanks and Vanquishers and the like, there are two units that stand out in my mind as utterly useless.
Rough Riders - these lack any substantial punch anymore, and really have lacked punch in any post 3E metagame, and have never had the survivability to really be anything but a counterattack unit, and with the 6E/7E change of no assaulting out of reserves, they're much less effective in that role as they can't be held safely in reserve to charge into something that crashed into your lines. Costing nearly twice what a basic Guardsmen does doesn't help either.
Techpriest Engineseer- woooo has a 1-in-3 chance to repair a single HP or damage result if it manages to be in base contact with a vehicle that needs it, costs nearly as much as a basic Infantry squad, and any upgrade options to increase effectiveness or firepower are hilariously overpriced along with having no transport option.
For Chaos Space Marines, I'm going to go with the Defiler
Got a *huge* points increase for no major increase in effectiveness, costs more than most kitted Leman Russ tanks and nearly twice what a Dread costs, with weaponry that pushes it into mutually opposed roles, and armor that is quite simply totally inadequate for something of its size and cost.
Lord Commissar wrote: I disagree on Scarabs being bad, as you can spawn more. I have seen some really nasty scarab farms list using a chronometron cryptek and harvest.
Suddenly when a squad of 10 becomes 20 and they have shred they become a different story, Even the strongest enemies will only kill a handful, and they start multiplying rapidly,
Downside of this, is that unless you bring a CAD, you can only bring 1 Spyder (Thanks to the internet thinking they're correct on rules) and therefor only spawning 1 scarab per turn. So you have to invest more points into scarabs, which is not a painless investment.
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Vaktathi wrote: Scarabs I think are more situational than actually outright "bad". As an IG player, they're still extremely scary for me, as they're fast with no way to slow them down short of killing them, and even just a couple depleted bases making it into base contact with an infantry or artillery unit can win combat, on top of the fact that (unless you're shooting massed S6+ at them), they effectively only care about every 3rd wound (or less depending on where the shooting is coming from) and can be reinforced and play shennanigans with placement.
As for Annihilation Barges, honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit itself, its not like it's an ineffective unit or hideously overpriced or anything like that, but that it's just the internal balanced that is wonky, as you're probably usually taking Night Scythes anyway, and they remain one of the cheapest and most powerful flyers in the game even with their recent nerfing.
I mean yeah, I enjoy playing Scarabs, certainly. They're loads of fun. I'm just saying in my view, if I wanted to optimize to bring the most effective thing, I'd leave them at home. Luckily though, I can play semi-fluffy lists of Crons and still do well, thanks to the detachment.
As for the barges, I'd still rather have most other heavy support platforms in the game. A Fire Prism, a Predator Tank, hell, a Leman Russ even. The A barge has the same range as my infantry, and doesn't give me anything my standard dudes can't give me, for cheaper and more durable. But, I still enjoy bringing an Annihilation Nexus for gaks and giggles in fun games. That's the beauty of it.
As for Annihilation Barges, honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit itself, its not like it's an ineffective unit or hideously overpriced or anything like that, but that it's just the internal balanced that is wonky, as you're probably usually taking Night Scythes anyway, and they remain one of the cheapest and most powerful flyers in the game even with their recent nerfing.
The problem is, the A. Barge got a double nerf. It's cost increased by 33% (which was reasonable), but it also lost tesla on snapshots (which wasn't).
What made the old barge great was that it's weapon had a lot of utility against most targets, and could still get a reasonable number of hits on fliers, after jinking or after moving 12". Now, not only are all those gone, but it's also substantially more expensive.
Regardless, I agree about Night Scythes still being too strong.
ConanMan wrote: I disagree with the previous post about Eldar's worst unit being storm guardians, they are 72 points now, and get 2 free power weapons and 2 free melta guns (if you get 24 of them plus a vyper and stuff.. they then run 6",) and for 216 points for 24 models they are impressive.
In fact point for point storm guardians are good vs any units that are NOT close combat troops (including marines)
My candidate for the worst unit in the eldar codex is wraithblades with swords.
One Storm Guardian squad is awful enough, and now 3 of them? Seeing them on the table will makes me feel very cold on the inside, as though my heart has abandoned me. How are you supposed to get them across the field? They will still get shot to pieces. Almost every basic weapon in the game is AP5, negating their armor. You absolutely need Wave Serpents to carry them. And how are they going to survive that flamer Overwatch?
Why do you think they will get into close combat with a unit that is NOT a close-combat focused? When you play a close combat unit, always be prepared to take on another close combat unit. When I play Striking Scorpion, I always imagine how they will fight against Orks and Khorne Bezerkers.
Trade off between Guardians and Storm Guardians. 1 shot at S4 AP5 Bladestorm 12" range for 1 close combat attack at S3 Ap-. Power Sword costs 15 points per model. Not even Power Weapon where I get to pick from a variety.
And why are you using the worst formation in the army? Spend on Windraider or even the other Guardian one.
This is actually a tough one for the Chaos Space Marines, because in the current state of affairs, it's actually difficult to choose which of their units is the worst. Their current book is filled with interesting concepts and ideas but poorly implemented rules-wise. Take the Warp Talons, for instance. I don't know if assaulting straight from deep strike would be too cheesy, but considering how much they cost, the fact that they can't assault from deep strike makes them an actual points sink.
To be completely honest, I don't know if the fault really lies with the codex itself, or rather with the power creep other armies have profited from. Heldrakes and Dinobots aside (currently, none of them specially good), CSM look like an army frozen in time since 4th edition, an army of - supposedly - close combat specialists who never get to assault because after 10000 years in the Eye of Terror their only assault vehicle is the Land Raider. It must be terribly difficult for those warpsmiths to tweak the existing rhino design into a proper assault vehicle, I mean they can build Dinobots from scratch but an useful assault-oriented APC? Nooooooo.
If only they had been frozen at their 3.5 codex state. At least they would be a more interesting army to play.
Orks
Bwagon. waaaaaaaay to overpriced. Could easily drop 40 points.
Mob rule,.. its just useless, not a unit i know
Invul saves gone.. omfgwtf... still no unit i know
Meganobz.. not even a 6++ pfff
Warboss... Lols hits like a hammer, takes hits like a grot...
Nobs Hit like a hammer, die like grots
Stormboyz... could just not spend the points... uselessssss
Kommandoz... decent but still suck because of the mass ignore cover weapons out there.
Bik Mek... only usefull for KFF... but pricey
Burna bomma and superbomma... to costly for what they do.. it aint much
Deff dread.... Killa kans.... they are made to suck..
Gorka/Morkanaut... waaaaaaay to pricey. Could easily drop 50 points.
Ghazkgull... seriously... THE BEAST that is like a puppy now...
I'd say Celestians for SOB. At least you can pack repentia in an allied assault vehicle and make that imperial knight that wasn't paying attention find out what it's like to eat 20+ armourbane attacks. Penitent engines even have a place in low point or heavy swarm games. (I don't know if anyone actually runs full swarm Tyraninds but 9 penitent engines plus a flamer/Heavyflamer BSS would make a list like that barbecue.)
Cirronimbus wrote: For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.
wha...whaaaa???? Commander w drone controller inserted into squad. OMG the firepower.
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Ghazkuul wrote: and don't forget the mega nobz, who cost as much as a terminator and suffer the same downfalls as them. To expensive, no dakka, and they have to have a 110point Transpoirt to be slightly useful.
C'mon bro.... 110 pts? What about Trukks w Ram? Megas are currently my face ripping favorite. Especially the bully boyz!
Orks in my opinion suffer from serveral problems
- Nobz/NobBikers without 5th ed wound allocation shenanigans
- Bubble Chucka comes to mind as the stand out worst unit in the codex
- Flash Gitz but I have no experience with them admittedly
- Killa Kanz should be elites. Too expensive. Too nerfed.
- Deff Dreds like all dreds in 40k - Dorkanauts could be solved by one ERRATA "Change Walker-type to Super Heavy Walker" Poof. More models sold. but the cost is basically equal to a <snicker> Wraithknight. And lord knows they could go toe to toe with a Wraithknight.
Read a few years ago about the worst gun in the game and one answer made me lol.... "Kombi - Rokkit because it hits 1 out of every 3 games."
Mob rule,.. its just useless, not a unit i know
Invul saves gone.. omfgwtf... still no unit i know
Meganobz.. not even a 6++ pfff
Warboss... Lols hits like a hammer, takes hits like a grot...
Nobs Hit like a hammer, die like grots
Stormboyz... could just not spend the points... uselessssss
Kommandoz... decent but still suck because of the mass ignore cover weapons out there.
Bik Mek... only usefull for KFF... but pricey
Burna bomma and superbomma... to costly for what they do.. it aint much
Deff dread.... Killa kans.... they are made to suck..
Gorka/Morkanaut... waaaaaaay to pricey. Could easily drop 50 points.
Ghazkgull... seriously... THE BEAST that is like a puppy now...
I agree on some but not on others.
The Mob Rule is bad, but it's not a deal breaker for me. It's thank to Mob Rule that my boys never ran sometimes. Still s****y to take off 2-4 boys every failed morale check now though.
Meganobz are a mixed bag for me. With a trukk missile, they are supremely effective. Plant that trukk 24" in someones face, wait for it to explode and the meganobs crawl out on their turn, and then wreck face.
Warboss I've had lots of success with the fnp's with lukky stikk. But I feel this is the only way to take him though. Not having rerolls on his FnP is just too risky when we have no invuls like you said.
Other units listed though, yea. I've had success with stormboyz only when there are a lot of other units to take heat off of them.
I love the concept of Kommandos, and had a few rare success with them and flamers. But they never last when the going gets tough (which its always tough for greenskinz)
Battlewagon way too costly like mentioned.
But the worst culprit I think of all in the entire codex?
Nobs. As a group, they are super expensive with a terrible save. Yes the waaagh banner is nice, and you can stick a painboy with them; but there are a lot of other useful other ways to spend the points.
I haven't played a nobs group in awhile, but I can only seem them useful in Kill Team missions, maybe?
Nobz: Significantly Over priced, no access to weapons beyond Kombi Skorchas/rokkitz. Garbage saves, even when upgraded a 4+ is about as useless as a 6+ in our current edition where S6AP4 or better is so prevalent. And to upgrade them to Bikers the cost is......astronomical. 18pts per model and i believe 27pts extra for a bike.
Meganobz: Same problems as a terminator, everyone keeps saying "Put them in a Trukk" and I say to that, if your opponenet is stupid enough to not pop that trukk on Turn 1 then you deserve to win with that garbage unit.
Burna Boyz/TankBustas/lootas: IF they aren't in a vehicle they are dead, and when that vehicle inevitably explodes (Open Topped + melta = 4+ explosion) you lose 5ish models, fail your leadership check and either run away or lose 1-6 more models to a Mob Rule check and you are left with a significantly smaller mob that has 6+ armor that gets shot off the table.
ALL ORK FLYERS: No DAKKA!, Dakkajet has 3 TL Supa Shootas which is only 9 S6 shots and it costs 130ish points....the eldar, on a much more survivable platform (JETBIKES) Can push out MORE S6 shots for less points. 10AV all round doesn't help the ork case either. Fightabomba is fun but with S7 its bomb doesn't do as much as it should. Burnabomba is a joke simple as that, the orks have more then enough anti-light infantry as is.
Battlewagon: TO expensive and without last codex's Deff Rolla it is just an over priced Transport for Burnas/Tankbustas and lootas. ohh and to make life better for orks, it falls into the Emptiest Slot in our FOC.....Heavy Support.
Trukks: Without Ramshackle (The old rule not this new crap) a Trukk is a timed explosive. It is a rare game when my Trukks survive more then 1-2 turns. Even in a Trukk spam army all it takes is bolters to take one out and the occasional Rokkit/lascannon/heavy bolter really mulches them.
Deff Dreads/KillaKans/Orkanauts/Stompa: Over priced, Low survivability, not enough Dakka and did i mention OVER PRICED!
FLASH GITZ: Nobz without access to even our crappy 4+ armor. Can not be taken without a Battlewagon....PERIOD! Significantly over priced for the Random AP it provides and with only a range of 24 they die in droves....throw in the "No Escape" rule for flamers and Flash gitz die in droves even INSIDE the stupid Battle wagon.
And lastly because im tired of hating all over my own codex, the biggest offender (in my opinion)
GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKA: Our LOW, leader of the Great Waaagh, Biggest, baddest ork since the emperors time......no invul, has +1 WS, Wounds and attacks then a regular Warboss.....Doesn't swing at initiative because....balance. So basically what you have is a severely over priced Warboss that has +1 attacks then a regular Warboss and has a better chance of hitting with his WS of 6. I mean FFS couldn't they have at least made him a T6 or T7 model to at least minimize the massive number of wounds he takes? Ohh wait thats right im forgetting, for 1 turn a game (can't be turn 1) Ghaz gets a 2++!!!!!!! OMG SO OP! Everyone start complaing to GW about how OP Ghaz is.....
I see on a regular basis players taking the LOW character slots in their army. (not WK stuff but the named character) Dante comes to mind frequently. I don't think I have ever seen an Ork take Ghaz unless he was bringing an UBER fluffy list and had no intent to win.
So theirs my rant enjoy my hate towards my own codex.
Vaktathi wrote: Techpriest Engineseer- woooo has a 1-in-3 chance to repair a single HP or damage result if it manages to be in base contact with a vehicle that needs it, costs nearly as much as a basic Infantry squad, and any upgrade options to increase effectiveness or firepower are hilariously overpriced along with having no transport option.
I had this idea of an enginseer + 2 servitors with plasma cannons in a chimera. They cost 80 points, making them cheaper than a plasma veteran squad, and they get 2 plasma cannons instead of 2 plasma guns, increasing range and damage output. For the kicker, they have an enginseer who can confer PotMS on a vehicle within 12" and who repairs their own chimera on a 3+.
Total theorycrafting at this point, but I think it could be pretty good in a gunline.
I really really really want to like Flashgitz, and I've had success with them. But every time I take them, I'm like "eeeehhh" because I know there's a lot of pain I can bring in their place.
Lootas only saving grace is the 48" range gun. You can park them on a large object in a far corner and they can pop things from afar.
OrkaMorka wrote: I really really really want to like Flashgitz, and I've had success with them. But every time I take them, I'm like "eeeehhh" because I know there's a lot of pain I can bring in their place.
Lootas only saving grace is the 48" range gun. You can park them on a large object in a far corner and they can pop things from afar.
Thats how I use them....until they get targetted by anything and die like flies....or if they are in a battlewagon, they get hit by Deep striking Melta that pops it and kills all the orks inside, or at least enough of them to render them impotent for the rest of the game.
TheSilo wrote: I had this idea of an enginseer + 2 servitors with plasma cannons in a chimera. They cost 80 points, making them cheaper than a plasma veteran squad, and they get 2 plasma cannons instead of 2 plasma guns, increasing range and damage output. For the kicker, they have an enginseer who can confer PotMS on a vehicle within 12" and who repairs their own chimera on a 3+.
5+, as the two servitors have replaced their servo-arms with plasma cannon. The enginseer + plasma servitors would come to 90 points, not 80, so would cost as much as the plasma vet squad. Also, you'll have to spend a turn embarking on that chimera. If you really wanted plasma servitors, check the inquisition list. Their servitors are 20% cheaper and their chimera is cheaper, has more fire points, and is a dedicated transport.
For Imperial Guard (AM), my vote would go to mortar heavy weapon squads. They cost so many points to do so little.
Ghazkuul wrote: Nobz: Significantly Over priced, no access to weapons beyond Kombi Skorchas/rokkitz. Garbage saves, even when upgraded a 4+ is about as useless as a 6+ in our current edition where S6AP4 or better is so prevalent. And to upgrade them to Bikers the cost is......astronomical. 18pts per model and i believe 27pts extra for a bike.
Meganobz: Same problems as a terminator, everyone keeps saying "Put them in a Trukk" and I say to that, if your opponenet is stupid enough to not pop that trukk on Turn 1 then you deserve to win with that garbage unit.
Burna Boyz/TankBustas/lootas: IF they aren't in a vehicle they are dead, and when that vehicle inevitably explodes (Open Topped + melta = 4+ explosion) you lose 5ish models, fail your leadership check and either run away or lose 1-6 more models to a Mob Rule check and you are left with a significantly smaller mob that has 6+ armor that gets shot off the table.
ALL ORK FLYERS: No DAKKA!, Dakkajet has 3 TL Supa Shootas which is only 9 S6 shots and it costs 130ish points....the eldar, on a much more survivable platform (JETBIKES) Can push out MORE S6 shots for less points. 10AV all round doesn't help the ork case either. Fightabomba is fun but with S7 its bomb doesn't do as much as it should. Burnabomba is a joke simple as that, the orks have more then enough anti-light infantry as is.
Battlewagon: TO expensive and without last codex's Deff Rolla it is just an over priced Transport for Burnas/Tankbustas and lootas. ohh and to make life better for orks, it falls into the Emptiest Slot in our FOC.....Heavy Support.
Trukks: Without Ramshackle (The old rule not this new crap) a Trukk is a timed explosive. It is a rare game when my Trukks survive more then 1-2 turns. Even in a Trukk spam army all it takes is bolters to take one out and the occasional Rokkit/lascannon/heavy bolter really mulches them.
Deff Dreads/KillaKans/Orkanauts/Stompa: Over priced, Low survivability, not enough Dakka and did i mention OVER PRICED!
FLASH GITZ: Nobz without access to even our crappy 4+ armor. Can not be taken without a Battlewagon....PERIOD! Significantly over priced for the Random AP it provides and with only a range of 24 they die in droves....throw in the "No Escape" rule for flamers and Flash gitz die in droves even INSIDE the stupid Battle wagon.
And lastly because im tired of hating all over my own codex, the biggest offender (in my opinion)
GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKA: Our LOW, leader of the Great Waaagh, Biggest, baddest ork since the emperors time......no invul, has +1 WS, Wounds and attacks then a regular Warboss.....Doesn't swing at initiative because....balance. So basically what you have is a severely over priced Warboss that has +1 attacks then a regular Warboss and has a better chance of hitting with his WS of 6. I mean FFS couldn't they have at least made him a T6 or T7 model to at least minimize the massive number of wounds he takes? Ohh wait thats right im forgetting, for 1 turn a game (can't be turn 1) Ghaz gets a 2++!!!!!!! OMG SO OP! Everyone start complaing to GW about how OP Ghaz is.....
I see on a regular basis players taking the LOW character slots in their army. (not WK stuff but the named character) Dante comes to mind frequently. I don't think I have ever seen an Ork take Ghaz unless he was bringing an UBER fluffy list and had no intent to win.
So theirs my rant enjoy my hate towards my own codex.
Could not agree with you more. The new ork codex was the biggest let down for me. I mentioned several of the same things that you did earlier in the topic. Got flamed when I mentioned battle wagons. BW got a point increase for no reason and the deff roller is about worthless.
TheSilo wrote: I had this idea of an enginseer + 2 servitors with plasma cannons in a chimera. They cost 80 points, making them cheaper than a plasma veteran squad, and they get 2 plasma cannons instead of 2 plasma guns, increasing range and damage output. For the kicker, they have an enginseer who can confer PotMS on a vehicle within 12" and who repairs their own chimera on a 3+.
5+, as the two servitors have replaced their servo-arms with plasma cannon. The enginseer + plasma servitors would come to 90 points, not 80, so would cost as much as the plasma vet squad. Also, you'll have to spend a turn embarking on that chimera. If you really wanted plasma servitors, check the inquisition list. Their servitors are 20% cheaper and their chimera is cheaper, has more fire points, and is a dedicated transport.
For Imperial Guard (AM), my vote would go to mortar heavy weapon squads. They cost so many points to do so little.
Forgot that they can't take their own dedicated transport, 'cause why would a techpriest have access to a vehicle transport? Lol!
Mortar squads are probably the best value heavy weapons squad, they're just so hilariously overshadowed by wyverns. If heavy weapon squads were priced like special weapons squads, they'd be a decent choice, but once equipped they have 6 wounds yet cost as much as a 10 man guard squad. And being unable to give them voxes makes zero sense.
I think for tyranids is probably the malceptor, although the haruspex gives it a solid run for its money. I would say pyrovores but now that we have drop pods again, they can be useful.
Tyranids have a lot of units that could be tweaked to make more useful within the codex, but I really think wings for a hive tyrant needs a point increase, too huge an advantage for the cost. Makes taking anything other then a flyrant as a HQ almost shooting yourself in the foot, even in a fun game.
Don't have any ork players in our group, but I remember the fun of playing against orks in 2nd ed. I remember the general groans when the new codex came out. Makes me sad that one of the original, and most iconic, armies of 40k seems have had such a bad codex dumped on them.
Ghazkuul wrote: Nobz: Significantly Over priced, no access to weapons beyond Kombi Skorchas/rokkitz. Garbage saves, even when upgraded a 4+ is about as useless as a 6+ in our current edition where S6AP4 or better is so prevalent. And to upgrade them to Bikers the cost is......astronomical. 18pts per model and i believe 27pts extra for a bike.
Meganobz: Same problems as a terminator, everyone keeps saying "Put them in a Trukk" and I say to that, if your opponenet is stupid enough to not pop that trukk on Turn 1 then you deserve to win with that garbage unit.
Burna Boyz/TankBustas/lootas: IF they aren't in a vehicle they are dead, and when that vehicle inevitably explodes (Open Topped + melta = 4+ explosion) you lose 5ish models, fail your leadership check and either run away or lose 1-6 more models to a Mob Rule check and you are left with a significantly smaller mob that has 6+ armor that gets shot off the table.
ALL ORK FLYERS: No DAKKA!, Dakkajet has 3 TL Supa Shootas which is only 9 S6 shots and it costs 130ish points....the eldar, on a much more survivable platform (JETBIKES) Can push out MORE S6 shots for less points. 10AV all round doesn't help the ork case either. Fightabomba is fun but with S7 its bomb doesn't do as much as it should. Burnabomba is a joke simple as that, the orks have more then enough anti-light infantry as is.
Battlewagon: TO expensive and without last codex's Deff Rolla it is just an over priced Transport for Burnas/Tankbustas and lootas. ohh and to make life better for orks, it falls into the Emptiest Slot in our FOC.....Heavy Support.
Trukks: Without Ramshackle (The old rule not this new crap) a Trukk is a timed explosive. It is a rare game when my Trukks survive more then 1-2 turns. Even in a Trukk spam army all it takes is bolters to take one out and the occasional Rokkit/lascannon/heavy bolter really mulches them.
Deff Dreads/KillaKans/Orkanauts/Stompa: Over priced, Low survivability, not enough Dakka and did i mention OVER PRICED!
FLASH GITZ: Nobz without access to even our crappy 4+ armor. Can not be taken without a Battlewagon....PERIOD! Significantly over priced for the Random AP it provides and with only a range of 24 they die in droves....throw in the "No Escape" rule for flamers and Flash gitz die in droves even INSIDE the stupid Battle wagon.
And lastly because im tired of hating all over my own codex, the biggest offender (in my opinion)
GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKA: Our LOW, leader of the Great Waaagh, Biggest, baddest ork since the emperors time......no invul, has +1 WS, Wounds and attacks then a regular Warboss.....Doesn't swing at initiative because....balance. So basically what you have is a severely over priced Warboss that has +1 attacks then a regular Warboss and has a better chance of hitting with his WS of 6. I mean FFS couldn't they have at least made him a T6 or T7 model to at least minimize the massive number of wounds he takes? Ohh wait thats right im forgetting, for 1 turn a game (can't be turn 1) Ghaz gets a 2++!!!!!!! OMG SO OP! Everyone start complaing to GW about how OP Ghaz is.....
I see on a regular basis players taking the LOW character slots in their army. (not WK stuff but the named character) Dante comes to mind frequently. I don't think I have ever seen an Ork take Ghaz unless he was bringing an UBER fluffy list and had no intent to win.
So theirs my rant enjoy my hate towards my own codex.
I find it funny that most of the units on this list (meganobz, lootas, Tankbustas, battlewagons, sometimes flash Gitz) are my money units that do the heavy lifting for my army. Battlewagons in particular are the bread and butter means to get my army across the board and into the enemy's face. Sure deffrollas are 100% trash but they are still AV14 front transports which can hold 20 (12 with the underrated killkannon) and is an open topped assault vehicle (space marines wish they had such a cheap assault vehicle). Blitz Brigade is just nasty with 5 AV14 units with scout, frees up the heavy support slots to bring things like lootas (who are cheaper than before and pump out solid dakka). Flash Gitz are decent and work fairly well in battlewagon lists, sorta expensive but can put out face melting dakka when you make the AP roll (not going to see them in tournaments but better than some other stuff). Tankbustas are amazing and one of the gems of the Ork dex. Spammable assault weapon str 8 AP3 with Tank Hunter and melta bombs is hard to beat for the price. Put them in (you guessed it) battlewagons and they are hard to put down while eating MEQs and vehicles for breakfast. Meganobz in trukks are just nasty and force the enemy to deal with them or get charged turn 2. LoS blocking and terrain are your friend with them (keep them in reserves if your worried about an alpha strike taking them out).
The biggest problem with the Ork codex is mob rule not helping our poor leadership enough in non 30 boy blobs and the FOC being too restricting for what the Orks need to offset the short comings. (Orks with a decurion style detatchment would be a terror to play against, that's without any OP bonuses).
For Dark Eldar, I would say the Wyches. No more Haywire on everybody. They don't suck like Storm Guardians and Mutilators. They are just not that good compared to the others. People would opt to use Kabalite Warriors as troops instead of these crazy bitches.
Rumbleguts wrote: I think for tyranids is probably the malceptor, although the haruspex gives it a solid run for its money. I would say pyrovores but now that we have drop pods again, they can be useful.
Tyranids have a lot of units that could be tweaked to make more useful within the codex, but I really think wings for a hive tyrant needs a point increase, too huge an advantage for the cost. Makes taking anything other then a flyrant as a HQ almost shooting yourself in the foot, even in a fun game.
Don't have any ork players in our group, but I remember the fun of playing against orks in 2nd ed. I remember the general groans when the new codex came out. Makes me sad that one of the original, and most iconic, armies of 40k seems have had such a bad codex dumped on them.
Wings should work like jump-packs, not make them into FMCs.
Cirronimbus wrote: For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.
Clearly its vespids. They are excellent ap shots, but die to a stiff breeze. Gun drones die less than these guys.
Rumbleguts wrote: I think for tyranids is probably the malceptor, although the haruspex gives it a solid run for its money. I would say pyrovores but now that we have drop pods again, they can be useful.
Tyranids have a lot of units that could be tweaked to make more useful within the codex, but I really think wings for a hive tyrant needs a point increase, too huge an advantage for the cost. Makes taking anything other then a flyrant as a HQ almost shooting yourself in the foot, even in a fun game.
Don't have any ork players in our group, but I remember the fun of playing against orks in 2nd ed. I remember the general groans when the new codex came out. Makes me sad that one of the original, and most iconic, armies of 40k seems have had such a bad codex dumped on them.
Wings should work like jump-packs, not make them into FMCs.
I think the wings are as is. GW just needs to limit the number of CADs you can take to limit spamming, but yeah. I personally use a Tyranid Prime quite a lot, and I bring a Tervigon as a troops choice, so the other choices have merit.
Rumbleguts wrote: I think for tyranids is probably the malceptor, although the haruspex gives it a solid run for its money. I would say pyrovores but now that we have drop pods again, they can be useful.
Tyranids have a lot of units that could be tweaked to make more useful within the codex, but I really think wings for a hive tyrant needs a point increase, too huge an advantage for the cost. Makes taking anything other then a flyrant as a HQ almost shooting yourself in the foot, even in a fun game.
Don't have any ork players in our group, but I remember the fun of playing against orks in 2nd ed. I remember the general groans when the new codex came out. Makes me sad that one of the original, and most iconic, armies of 40k seems have had such a bad codex dumped on them.
Wings should work like jump-packs, not make them into FMCs.
Without FMC spam, the Tyranid codex would become very, very weak.
Especially as Flyrants are one of our two only real sources of anti-air.
I find it funny that most of the units on this list (meganobz, lootas, Tankbustas, battlewagons, sometimes flash Gitz) are my money units that do the heavy lifting for my army. Battlewagons in particular are the bread and butter means to get my army across the board and into the enemy's face. Sure deffrollas are 100% trash but they are still AV14 front transports which can hold 20 (12 with the underrated killkannon) and is an open topped assault vehicle (space marines wish they had such a cheap assault vehicle). Blitz Brigade is just nasty with 5 AV14 units with scout, frees up the heavy support slots to bring things like lootas (who are cheaper than before and pump out solid dakka). Flash Gitz are decent and work fairly well in battlewagon lists, sorta expensive but can put out face melting dakka when you make the AP roll (not going to see them in tournaments but better than some other stuff). Tankbustas are amazing and one of the gems of the Ork dex. Spammable assault weapon str 8 AP3 with Tank Hunter and melta bombs is hard to beat for the price. Put them in (you guessed it) battlewagons and they are hard to put down while eating MEQs and vehicles for breakfast. Meganobz in trukks are just nasty and force the enemy to deal with them or get charged turn 2. LoS blocking and terrain are your friend with them (keep them in reserves if your worried about an alpha strike taking them out).
The biggest problem with the Ork codex is mob rule not helping our poor leadership enough in non 30 boy blobs and the FOC being too restricting for what the Orks need to offset the short comings. (Orks with a decurion style detatchment would be a terror to play against, that's without any OP bonuses).
I just listed all the short comings of those units, if you want to take a Battle wagon formation your paying 550pts before you even put guns on the damned things and its 14/12/10 meaning they die easily enough. Put 20 boyz in each one with a nob pk and you got 1275pts with no ranged weapons of any kind beyond pistols. put some upgrades on those wagonz for gunz and you just maxed out a 1,500 list and you only have a couple rokkitz on each battle wagon
So yeah 100 boyz in 5 squads in scary, but unbound so.....
But wings letting a tyrant fly is in line with harpies and crones.
It's also in line with daemon princes, lords of change, and bloodthirsters.
Not to get completely off-topic, but I don't like the way flyers are integrated into the game at all. It's also bizarre that an FMC flying around at ~60-80 mph is as hard to hit as a plane zooming by much faster. I think the game is better served when planes and the like are abstract elements, i.e. you call in an air-strike on unit X, rather than you fly the plane in and play it like another model.
But wings letting a tyrant fly is in line with harpies and crones.
It's also in line with daemon princes, lords of change, and bloodthirsters.
Not to get completely off-topic, but I don't like the way flyers are integrated into the game at all. It's also bizarre that an FMC flying around at ~60-80 mph is as hard to hit as a plane zooming by much faster. I think the game is better served when planes and the like are abstract elements, i.e. you call in an air-strike on unit X, rather than you fly the plane in and play it like another model.
Harpies can fly in space and keep pace with Imperial star furies so I'm pretty sure FMCs can go much faster than anything operating under real world biologies ever could.
Harpies can fly in space and keep pace with Imperial star furies so I'm pretty sure FMCs can go much faster than anything operating under real world biologies ever could.
Harpies can fly in space and keep pace with Imperial star furies so I'm pretty sure FMCs can go much faster than anything operating under real world biologies ever could.
Wait, what? How the hell do harpies fly in space?
I dunno, ask Mothra and King Ghidorah. Harridans can do it too.
Harpies can fly in space and keep pace with Imperial star furies so I'm pretty sure FMCs can go much faster than anything operating under real world biologies ever could.
Harpies can fly in space and keep pace with Imperial star furies so I'm pretty sure FMCs can go much faster than anything operating under real world biologies ever could.
Wait, what? How the hell do harpies fly in space?
Maybe their wings act like solar sails?
Or they just flap really hard when they're in atmosphere so they achieve escape velocity and then just hope gravity pulls them somewhere useful rather than ending up in orbit around the sun
There are few bad tau units, and some overpriced ones as well. Vespids are an obvious choice, tau already do ranged anti-meq shooting much better, our codex flyers are abysmal, and aun-shi is a joke. There are also some overpriced ones like devilfish and stealth suits, but I wouldn't call them bad, as such.
Rumbleguts wrote: I think for tyranids is probably the malceptor, although the haruspex gives it a solid run for its money. I would say pyrovores but now that we have drop pods again, they can be useful.
Tyranids have a lot of units that could be tweaked to make more useful within the codex, but I really think wings for a hive tyrant needs a point increase, too huge an advantage for the cost. Makes taking anything other then a flyrant as a HQ almost shooting yourself in the foot, even in a fun game.
Don't have any ork players in our group, but I remember the fun of playing against orks in 2nd ed. I remember the general groans when the new codex came out. Makes me sad that one of the original, and most iconic, armies of 40k seems have had such a bad codex dumped on them.
Wings should work like jump-packs, not make them into FMCs.
Without FMC spam, the Tyranid codex would become very, very weak.
Especially as Flyrants are one of our two only real sources of anti-air.
Also, why would a set of wings not let you fly?
I don't know. I only use a max of 2 flyrants, and they are damned effective. But then I don't play tournaments, and we play less then 2k points so only the primary detachment. And we require formations to be filled out from the FoC, so that prevents most spamming. So my experiences probably aren't the same as tournament players. I would just like to see most of the units be more likely to be playable, rather then focusing on a very few good units.
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Wait, what? How the hell do harpies fly in space?
Maybe their wings act like solar sails?
Or they just flap really hard when they're in atmosphere so they achieve escape velocity and then just hope gravity pulls them somewhere useful rather than ending up in orbit around the sun
No, using very narrow sphincter muscles and powerful muscles lining their float gas bladders they are able achieve extreme speeds in frictionless, zero g conditions.
Dark Angels: Land speeder vengeance that is a huge fire magnet thanks to its gun and yet can be destroyed by a mildy aggresive fart if it dosen't overheat itself to death beforehand.
Space Marines: Assault Centurions that would annhilate the enemy in close combat if they actually moved fast enougth to get anywhere near said enemy before being killed by shooting.
Chaos Space Marines: Warp talons that can only do any kind of damage in close combat yet hit slower than Tau firewarriors if unit they are charging isn't standing out completly in the open with no obstancles of any kind the Talons' path.
For KDK its a close match up between between Possessed, KBs, and spawn, but due to the fact that spawn have little to no advantages over the flesh hounds while Khorne Berzerkers are much tougher than BLs while being over priced and possessed if faced against flayed ones or any infantry with a lower initiative and a 3-4 armor will utterly wreck them with right rolls.
For Space Wolves I'd say it's definitely Wolf Guard.
I personally think they did a great job of internally balancing all the units moving from the last codex to the current one... except for wolf guard.
They were already a unit that had one rare use, to outflank from the enemies board edge and fire a melta. They removed both their ability to outflank from the opponents board edge and also their option to take a melta. They're just bad.
No! It's gotta be basic possessed or mutilators. Warp Talons can work in some builds (with daemon allies, with even bigger melee murderers to draw fire away from them, as a counter to full drop-pod armies (they'll murder anything that comes out, and are fast enough to catch them even if they land at a distance - as the warp talons are unlikely to be the primary target if you're doig it right) )
For Eldar: either Howling Banshees or Shining Spears. Honestly not sure which. Both are traps. Both are bad units. Both got great buffs, and none of those buffs actually addressed the problems with the units.
Deadeight wrote: For Space Wolves I'd say it's definitely Wolf Guard.
I personally think they did a great job of internally balancing all the units moving from the last codex to the current one... except for wolf guard.
They were already a unit that had one rare use, to outflank from the enemies board edge and fire a melta. They removed both their ability to outflank from the opponents board edge and also their option to take a melta. They're just bad.
Wolf scouts are total crap now. They cant even be used to fill cheap troop slots for a CAD since they are elite . Okay they couldnt do that before too but they werent even OP in their previous iteration. Just fluffy and flavourful. They had their best times in 5th when assaulting from reserve wasnt prohibited. Nothing better than to enter from opponents board edge burn down a vehicle and assault it afterwards if the melta didnt destroy it completely.
But why do you think they cant take a melta? They still can take one.
Can we nominate worst units in each faction and include some forgeworld atrocities?
Let's see:
IG Arvus Lighter - 75 pts for AV10 3HP FA with no guns. You can buy guns for an absurd cost, but only ever snap shoot them. 25pts for a TL autocannon or worst of the worst 20 pts for 2 one shot hellstrike missiles that aren't even TL.
SM Chaplain Dreadnought - can re-roll hits in CC with his mighty 2 base attacks for 135 points. It should have some sort of zealot bubble.
BA Contemptor Dreadnought - can't take any of the cool weapons, instead pays a 50pt premium over the Furioso (itself not very good) for a worse platform.
Cybork Slashas - Regular Ork nobz are really bad, these are a more expensive version with redundant upgrades that kills themselves.
Chaos - Spined Chaos Beast at 140pts don't really do anything, especially compared to giant chaos spawn, which are better at only 80pts.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - Dark Eldar can do much, much worse than a succubus.
Sure can! So what if I can over watch the succubus to death - she can at least rake in CC vs a lot of things that cost a lot more than her. Hellions are probably the worst.
Cirronimbus wrote: For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.
Clearly its vespids. They are excellent ap shots, but die to a stiff breeze. Gun drones die less than these guys.
Cirronimbus wrote: For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.
Clearly its vespids. They are excellent ap shots, but die to a stiff breeze. Gun drones die less than these guys.
How? They have the same T and armor save.
Gun drones can jump shoot jump.
Tycho is abysmal for his points. His dead man's hand used to ignore all armor saves, now nothing.
I'd have to agree for Aun'shi for tau , he's just bad all around . I like vespids , i'd like to use more vespids buts its a slot thing cause of pathfinders
Dark Eldar - Either Wyches or the beast master and his beasts, wyches can no longer hold there own in CC and as for the beast pack, I just don't see a use for them at all in DE. But as for everything else, well everything else has a place in a DE army, no matter what you pick you can find a great way to combo it with your current army.
Although the disability to give your HQ a bike or skyboard now kind limits him, but oh well, still good
Salvation wrote: Dark Eldar - Either Wyches or the beast master and his beasts, wyches can no longer hold there own in CC and as for the beast pack, I just don't see a use for them at all in DE. But as for everything else, well everything else has a place in a DE army, no matter what you pick you can find a great way to combo it with your current army.
I think DE has a four way tie for worst unit between Wyches, Bloodbrides, Beast Packs, and Hellions. All of these units are ostensibly CC specialists but I wouldn't wager on any of them in a fight against Guardsmen, Gaunts, Fire Warriors, or Dire Avengers.
sweetbacon wrote: I think DE has a four way tie for worst unit between Wyches, Bloodbrides, Beast Packs, and Hellions.
I actually think bloodbrides are a decent unit, having 3 CC attacks (2 base + CC weapons) as the base model for 13pts makes them a really cheap Klaivex. They are actually relatively decent. However, unlike the Trueborn, Bloodbrides still have the same upgrade restrictions of regular wyches (plus incubi are just way cooler).
sweetbacon wrote: I think DE has a four way tie for worst unit between Wyches, Bloodbrides, Beast Packs, and Hellions.
I actually think bloodbrides are a decent unit, having 3 CC attacks (2 base + CC weapons) as the base model for 13pts makes them a really cheap Klaivex. They are actually relatively decent. However, unlike the Trueborn, Bloodbrides still have the same upgrade restrictions of regular wyches (plus incubi are just way cooler).
And overwatch rips them apart incredibly easily. Even charging another CC unit, any bolt pistol shots (i.e.) will put a good bit of hurt on them, IIRC.
Wolfblade wrote: And overwatch rips them apart incredibly easily. Even charging another CC unit, any bolt pistol shots (i.e.) will put a good bit of hurt on them, IIRC.
Yeah I guess I have just been lucky with them when charging, also sometimes charging another tougher unit first isn't a bad idea, seeing as you can only overwatch once.
sweetbacon wrote: I think DE has a four way tie for worst unit between Wyches, Bloodbrides, Beast Packs, and Hellions.
I actually think bloodbrides are a decent unit, having 3 CC attacks (2 base + CC weapons) as the base model for 13pts makes them a really cheap Klaivex. They are actually relatively decent. However, unlike the Trueborn, Bloodbrides still have the same upgrade restrictions of regular wyches (plus incubi are just way cooler).
Then you remember that those attacks are at S3.
And that your elite melee unit has T3 and basically no defence outside of combat.
sweetbacon wrote: I think DE has a four way tie for worst unit between Wyches, Bloodbrides, Beast Packs, and Hellions.
I actually think bloodbrides are a decent unit, having 3 CC attacks (2 base + CC weapons) as the base model for 13pts makes them a really cheap Klaivex. They are actually relatively decent. However, unlike the Trueborn, Bloodbrides still have the same upgrade restrictions of regular wyches (plus incubi are just way cooler).
Then you remember that those attacks are at S3.
And that your elite melee unit has T3 and basically no defence outside of combat.
Yeah but S3 and T3 is the core of DE. Everything that has a part in DE (excluding Slyth and MC) has S3 and T3. DE is a glass cannon, wyches get a 4+ invul in CC and can bounce around in cover, or a 3+ jinking raider shooting at Wyches or Bloodbrides isn't the problem, the problem is that for whatever reason they decided to nerf the Wych Weapons, making regular 2 attack Wyches not worth the points and get gak on by 2 attack space marines with T4, even if the Wyches outnumber the combat squad.
The extra attack from Bloodbrides really makes them worthwhile as a points filler if you can't get incubi or grotesques (more so incubi) and they get S4 on the charge on turn 4 anyway (sometimes as early as turn 2) and turn 6 gives them +2 attacks on the charge, making them ideally S4 T3 5A for 13pts each, just keep them in a darting raider in between combat or take a few more to deny the impact of overwatch kills. I wouldn't do this for regular wyches though as they usually don't last through their first CC battle :/
sweetbacon wrote: I think DE has a four way tie for worst unit between Wyches, Bloodbrides, Beast Packs, and Hellions.
I actually think bloodbrides are a decent unit, having 3 CC attacks (2 base + CC weapons) as the base model for 13pts makes them a really cheap Klaivex. They are actually relatively decent. However, unlike the Trueborn, Bloodbrides still have the same upgrade restrictions of regular wyches (plus incubi are just way cooler).
Then you remember that those attacks are at S3.
And that your elite melee unit has T3 and basically no defence outside of combat.
Yeah but S3 and T3 is the core of DE. Everything that has a part in DE (excluding Slyth and MC) has S3 and T3. DE is a glass cannon, wyches get a 4+ invul in CC and can bounce around in cover, or a 3+ jinking raider shooting at Wyches or Bloodbrides isn't the problem, the problem is that for whatever reason they decided to nerf the Wych Weapons, making regular 2 attack Wyches not worth the points and get gak on by 2 attack space marines with T4, even if the Wyches outnumber the combat squad.
The extra attack from Bloodbrides really makes them worthwhile as a points filler if you can't get incubi or grotesques (more so incubi) and they get S4 on the charge on turn 4 anyway (sometimes as early as turn 2) and turn 6 gives them +2 attacks on the charge, making them ideally S4 T3 5A for 13pts each, just keep them in a darting raider in between combat or take a few more to deny the impact of overwatch kills. I wouldn't do this for regular wyches though as they usually don't last through their first CC battle :/
If I have enough points left over to use on Bloodbrides as filler, then I probably have enough left over to use on something actually useful.
Yeah but S3 and T3 is the core of DE. Everything that has a part in DE (excluding Slyth and MC) has S3 and T3.
Grotesques are S5 T5, Incubi are have S4 AP2 weapons and a meaningful armour save.
Furthermore, you'll notice that many of our S3 units don't actually use their strength value because they're armed with wonderful devices known as guns.
Salvation wrote: wyches get a 4+ invul in CC and can bounce around in cover
Bounce around in cover... doing what? They don't have stealth, they're only armed with pistols so why use them over warriors? Warriors can also bounce around in cover, but can actually put out some shots whilst doing so.
Salvation wrote: shooting at Wyches or Bloodbrides isn't the problem
It's far from the only problem, but it is a big problem.
Salvation wrote: the problem is that for whatever reason they decided to nerf the Wych Weapons, making regular 2 attack Wyches not worth the points and get gak on by 2 attack space marines with T4, even if the Wyches outnumber the combat squad.
No, that isn't the problem. That was just a little extra nerf atop the mountain of other nerfs.
The problem is that wyches have no useful role. They're not durable, they don't hit hard and they can't even spam HWGs anymore. Bloodbrides are even worse because they have the exact same problem, but are elites.
The extra attack from Bloodbrides really makes them worthwhile as a points filler if you can't get incubi or grotesques
No, it doesn't. Not even close. They don't do anything and they don't add anything to an army. They're not even cheap. if you have the points to blow on bloodbrides, then you have enough points for a better unit instead.
Oh goody. I love it when my Elite combat unit needs to hang back until turn 4 to be the slightest bit worth a damn. And, even then, they're still garbage. Seriously, in the age of D-weapons, Scatter-bikes, Dreadknights, Riptides and Flyrants, who in their right mind is afraid of some S4 attacks with no AP or useful special rules?
Salvation wrote: and turn 6 gives them +2 attacks on the charge, making them ideally S4 T3 5A for 13pts each
You know that a game might not even last till turn 6, right? I imagine a lot of Bloodbrides certainly won't...
Salvation wrote: just keep them in a darting raider in between combat
This seems optimistic, to say the least. Who's this opponent you're playing who's units are getting mowed down by S3 attacks (presumably with negligible overwatch, which rules out Tau and IG), and who also can't kill a raider in his own front lines?
Salvation wrote: I wouldn't do this for regular wyches though as they usually don't last through their first CC battle :/
Indeed. Good job Blodbrides have all that extra survivability like... um... the ability to hide on shelves for entire editions?
SM: Terminators/Chaplain/Classic LR GK: Rhinos/Razorbacks
Tyranids: Pyrovore/Prime/Old One Eye/Red Terror/Lack of Inv on my Flyrant/Genestealers/Broodlord
IG: Rough Riders/LR Punisher
Inquisition: Daemonhosts
Skitarii: Ruststalkers
CSM: Thousand Sons (Which breaks my heart make no mistake)
and finally Imperial Knights. The entire codex is rubbish.
Why? Because I can never bring something cool looking to a game without being thought of as "that guy".
Awesome, terrific models, terrible reputation. I will never ever get to field my Knight because of this ¬¬
[Edit] Oh, I forgot to add. The entire Dark Angels Codex. Yeah you heard me.
SM: Terminators/Chaplain/Classic LR GK: Rhinos/Razorbacks
Tyranids: Pyrovore/Prime/Old One Eye/Red Terror/Lack of Inv on my Flyrant/Genestealers/Broodlord
IG: Rough Riders/LR Punisher
Inquisition: Daemonhosts
Skitarii: Ruststalkers
CSM: Thousand Sons (Which breaks my heart make no mistake)
and finally Imperial Knights. The entire codex is rubbish.
Why? Because I can never bring something cool looking to a game without being thought of as "that guy".
Awesome, terrific models, terrible reputation. I will never ever get to field my Knight because of this ¬¬
[Edit] Oh, I forgot to add. The entire Dark Angels Codex. Yeah you heard me.
Why pick on the standard LR? All LR are bad. Between the 3 choices though - youre calling the LR with the best Firepower the worst LR...that just doesn't make sense.
Also - the punisher is probably the best LR as well - not the worst. Executioner is also a beast but can destroy itself.
vipoid wrote: Isn't the Punisher only good with Pask?
Depends on what you define as good. That tank can put out 29 str 5 shots. Compared to the other varients this one seems to be the best for the point IMO. Certainly not the worst.
I guess I just don't find lots of S5 very useful. They can't even glance a lot of vehicles, and when you factor in BS3, toughness and saves, most of those shots just glance off MCs.
Even against infantry, it jut doesn't seem very impressive.
e.g. against marines, 29 shots is ~15 hits, 10 wounds and 3 dead marines.
vipoid wrote: I guess I just don't find lots of S5 very useful. They can't even glance a lot of vehicles, and when you factor in BS3, toughness and saves, most of those shots just glance off MCs.
Even against infantry, it jut doesn't seem very impressive.
e.g. against marines, 29 shots is ~15 hits, 10 wounds and 3 dead marines.
I just don't see the appeal.
It's obviously a lot better with pask and you probably figure you could get just as many wounds with a wyvern on most squads and with ignore cover to boot for half the cost - but it more reliably puts up wounds. Things like TWC - flying hive tyrants - necron wraiths - where a torrent shots is the only thing that stands a remote chance of dealing some wounds.
You make a good point though- why not just put pask in it? Plus i find it very good at killing things like rhinos and raiders.
Blood Angels - Captain Tycho (What is the point of him?)
Dark Angels - Nephilim jetfighter (with Avenger MEGA bolter and S6 missiles - ooh how scary!)
Grey Knights - Rhino
Blood Angels - Captain Tycho (What is the point of him?)
Dark Angels - Nephilim jetfighter (with Avenger MEGA bolter and S6 missiles - ooh how scary!)
Grey Knights - Rhino
Why the Rhino? It's a super cheap transport. I wish our more fragile DE transports were that cheap.
Not actually a fan of the standard Tact Squad - feels like Fodder.
That's because people are spoiled and expect every unit to be a game breaker with tons of bells and whistles.
It also speaks to the state of the game: GW feeling the need to slowly but surely increase the overall power level of individual units(need to sell those pricey kits ya know).
Blood Angels - Captain Tycho (What is the point of him?)
Dark Angels - Nephilim jetfighter (with Avenger MEGA bolter and S6 missiles - ooh how scary!)
Grey Knights - Rhino
Why the Rhino? It's a super cheap transport. I wish our more fragile DE transports were that cheap.
I guess it was just in terms of how it fitted within the codex compared to other units and my past experiences of my own Rhino's and Razorbacks always getting blown up in any game that I take them. Plus with the Grey Knights the Rhino doesn't seem to go with their play style for me, it's probably different for other players. I do feel your pain over open topped armour 10 transports, but on the plus side your evil elves can jink save, shoot from them as well as assault from them which does help I'd imagine. The DE transports are really nice looking too! :-)
Not actually a fan of the standard Tact Squad - feels like Fodder.
That's because people are spoiled and expect every unit to be a game breaker with tons of bells and whistles.
It also speaks to the state of the game: GW feeling the need to slowly but surely increase the overall power level of individual units(need to sell those pricey kits ya know).
If you look at the absurd power jump of the Necron, Eldar, and now Cult Mechanicus (based on the leaks I've seen) codexes, I can understand why people have expectation that every new unit/book be game breakingly good. Those three books are WAY better than every other 7th edition codex thus far. If GW can do that for them, why not every army?
Not actually a fan of the standard Tact Squad - feels like Fodder.
That's because people are spoiled and expect every unit to be a game breaker with tons of bells and whistles.
It also speaks to the state of the game: GW feeling the need to slowly but surely increase the overall power level of individual units(need to sell those pricey kits ya know).
If you look at the absurd power jump of the Necron, Eldar, and now Cult Mechanicus (based on the leaks I've seen) codexes, I can understand why people have expectation that every new unit/book be game breakingly good. Those three books are WAY better than every other 7th edition codex thus far. If GW can do that for them, why not every army?
Actually it's because Tactical Marines do nothing but bring OS Drop Pods, and even then that's not necessary.
What if we had a thread that listed for the whole dex/supplements where people thought the units stood:
bad; average; good; or OP (/bordering on OP)? It would be interesting to see how the different factions compared and how many units with a particular army fell in each category/
Korinov wrote: This is actually a tough one for the Chaos Space Marines, because in the current state of affairs, it's actually difficult to choose which of their units is the worst. Their current book is filled with interesting concepts and ideas but poorly implemented rules-wise. Take the Warp Talons, for instance. I don't know if assaulting straight from deep strike would be too cheesy, but considering how much they cost, the fact that they can't assault from deep strike makes them an actual points sink.
To be completely honest, I don't know if the fault really lies with the codex itself, or rather with the power creep other armies have profited from. Heldrakes and Dinobots aside (currently, none of them specially good), CSM look like an army frozen in time since 4th edition, an army of - supposedly - close combat specialists who never get to assault because after 10000 years in the Eye of Terror their only assault vehicle is the Land Raider. It must be terribly difficult for those warpsmiths to tweak the existing rhino design into a proper assault vehicle, I mean they can build Dinobots from scratch but an useful assault-oriented APC? Nooooooo.
If only they had been frozen at their 3.5 codex state. At least they would be a more interesting army to play.
Yeah but S3 and T3 is the core of DE. Everything that has a part in DE (excluding Slyth and MC) has S3 and T3.
Grotesques are S5 T5, Incubi are have S4 AP2 weapons and a meaningful armour save.
Furthermore, you'll notice that many of our S3 units don't actually use their strength value because they're armed with wonderful devices known as guns.
Salvation wrote: wyches get a 4+ invul in CC and can bounce around in cover
Bounce around in cover... doing what? They don't have stealth, they're only armed with pistols so why use them over warriors? Warriors can also bounce around in cover, but can actually put out some shots whilst doing so.
Salvation wrote: shooting at Wyches or Bloodbrides isn't the problem
It's far from the only problem, but it is a big problem.
Salvation wrote: the problem is that for whatever reason they decided to nerf the Wych Weapons, making regular 2 attack Wyches not worth the points and get gak on by 2 attack space marines with T4, even if the Wyches outnumber the combat squad.
No, that isn't the problem. That was just a little extra nerf atop the mountain of other nerfs.
The problem is that wyches have no useful role. They're not durable, they don't hit hard and they can't even spam HWGs anymore. Bloodbrides are even worse because they have the exact same problem, but are elites.
The extra attack from Bloodbrides really makes them worthwhile as a points filler if you can't get incubi or grotesques
No, it doesn't. Not even close. They don't do anything and they don't add anything to an army. They're not even cheap. if you have the points to blow on bloodbrides, then you have enough points for a better unit instead.
Oh goody. I love it when my Elite combat unit needs to hang back until turn 4 to be the slightest bit worth a damn. And, even then, they're still garbage. Seriously, in the age of D-weapons, Scatter-bikes, Dreadknights, Riptides and Flyrants, who in their right mind is afraid of some S4 attacks with no AP or useful special rules?
Salvation wrote: and turn 6 gives them +2 attacks on the charge, making them ideally S4 T3 5A for 13pts each
You know that a game might not even last till turn 6, right? I imagine a lot of Bloodbrides certainly won't...
Salvation wrote: just keep them in a darting raider in between combat
This seems optimistic, to say the least. Who's this opponent you're playing who's units are getting mowed down by S3 attacks (presumably with negligible overwatch, which rules out Tau and IG), and who also can't kill a raider in his own front lines?
Salvation wrote: I wouldn't do this for regular wyches though as they usually don't last through their first CC battle :/
Indeed. Good job Blodbrides have all that extra survivability like... um... the ability to hide on shelves for entire editions?
Yo so umm....... have you even played with bloodbrides? Haha I played a game against Tau today and I think you forget, overwatch needs 6's to hit, that is hard to do regularly even for grouped up tau as i found out today. Grotesques sure have a damn good amount of survivability sure, but they also are expensive and slow and dumb and also die quite as often as the rest of a DE army despite their high toughness.
Also I love you just neglected the tactic with Haemonculi + Animus Vitae bumping up PFP, also ever considered a WWP or maybe the fact that cover saves are better than 6+ save that they have or the fact that warriors are useless in CC or that fleet allows for darting from place to place very damn effectively, honestly, play a game and actually use some tactics once in a while, seems like you just sit there and shoot thinking you are tau but you aren't tau.
Blood Angels - Captain Tycho (What is the point of him?)
Dark Angels - Nephilim jetfighter (with Avenger MEGA bolter and S6 missiles - ooh how scary!)
Grey Knights - Rhino
Why the Rhino? It's a super cheap transport. I wish our more fragile DE transports were that cheap.
But your transports have opentopped (so also assault vehicle), fast skimmer speed and jink (which makes them more survivable). I wish my BA had access to fast assault vehicle skimmers.
Yo so umm....... have you even played with bloodbrides? Haha I played a game against Tau today and I think you forget, overwatch needs 6's to hit, that is hard to do regularly even for grouped up tau as i found out today.
Speaking as someone who's played Tau regularly, no, it's really not hard to do significant damage. Especially when any markerlight hits mean other squads are hitting on 5s. And, virtually every weapon in the Tau arsenal is killing bloodbrides on 2s.
Salvation wrote: Grotesques sure have a damn good amount of survivability sure, but they also are expensive and slow and dumb and also die quite as often as the rest of a DE army despite their high toughness.
I'm not sure how T5 with 3 wounds and FNP dies as easily as T3 with no save.
Also, Bloodbrides have Fleet. That's literally their only speed advantage over Grotesques.
Salvation wrote: or that fleet allows for darting from place to place very damn effectively
By what possible measure?
Salvation wrote: honestly, play a game and actually use some tactics once in a while, seems like you just sit there and shoot thinking you are tau but you aren't tau.
I suggest you try playing your bloodbrides against an opponent with a pulse.
Unit Wise: Mutilators (I've actually won a game with warptalons once. It was a miracle, but it did happen.)
Special Character Wise: Lucius the Eternal. Nothing quite like a CC Special Character who unlocks troops that are some of the best shooters in the codex. Lets try to ignore the fact that he doesn't have eternal warrior... which makes little sense considering his fluff and the fact that ETERNAL is in his name.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Unit Wise: Mutilators (I've actually won a game with warptalons once. It was a miracle, but it did happen.)
Special Character Wise: Lucius the Eternal. Nothing quite like a CC Special Character who unlocks troops that are some of the best shooters in the codex. Lets try to ignore the fact that he doesn't have eternal warrior... which makes little sense considering his fluff and the fact that ETERNAL is in his name.
He's eternal because whoever kiills him becomes him, not because he can wade through Earthshaker barrages.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Unit Wise: Mutilators (I've actually won a game with warptalons once. It was a miracle, but it did happen.)
Special Character Wise: Lucius the Eternal. Nothing quite like a CC Special Character who unlocks troops that are some of the best shooters in the codex. Lets try to ignore the fact that he doesn't have eternal warrior... which makes little sense considering his fluff and the fact that ETERNAL is in his name.
Ahriman is lacking as well. ML4 and the ability to cast a witchfire three times per psychic phase is nice, but he's no more reliable casting them than a normal sorcerer (or worse, seeing as sorcerers can take a spell familiar).
Add that to the fact he's somewhat limited in terms of which schools he can use, and that all that stands before him and instant death from power fists and krak missiles is a 4++...
He can sometimes do really well, if he gets lucky, but mostly he's a massive point sink, which is very sad considering his fluff. :(
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Unit Wise: Mutilators (I've actually won a game with warptalons once. It was a miracle, but it did happen.)
Special Character Wise: Lucius the Eternal. Nothing quite like a CC Special Character who unlocks troops that are some of the best shooters in the codex. Lets try to ignore the fact that he doesn't have eternal warrior... which makes little sense considering his fluff and the fact that ETERNAL is in his name.
Ahriman is lacking as well. ML4 and the ability to cast a witchfire three times per psychic phase is nice, but he's no more reliable casting them than a normal sorcerer (or worse, seeing as sorcerers can take a spell familiar).
Add that to the fact he's somewhat limited in terms of which schools he can use, and that all that stands before him and instant death from power fists and krak missiles is a 4++...
He can sometimes do really well, if he gets lucky, but mostly he's a massive point sink, which is very sad considering his fluff. :(
I can do you one better.
Old One Eye. aka "I paid how much for a crushing claw carnifex?"
Also, Vipoid, you probably aren't aware of this, this being the Internet, but you're coming across as extremely arrogant and kind of a jerk. Tone it down, man.
I know it's a bit early, but considering we've seen most of the rules, i would like to nominate Electropriests. Yes, the formation makes them mildly more useful, but they're still outclassed by basic Skitarii, especially considering the WD formation.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Unit Wise: Mutilators (I've actually won a game with warptalons once. It was a miracle, but it did happen.)
Special Character Wise: Lucius the Eternal. Nothing quite like a CC Special Character who unlocks troops that are some of the best shooters in the codex. Lets try to ignore the fact that he doesn't have eternal warrior... which makes little sense considering his fluff and the fact that ETERNAL is in his name.
He's eternal because whoever kiills him becomes him, not because he can wade through Earthshaker barrages.
I'm well aware of that. He's got such interesting fluff, I wish there was a practical way to represent his constant regenerating through others on the tabletop.
Camundongo wrote:
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Unit Wise: Mutilators (I've actually won a game with warptalons once. It was a miracle, but it did happen.)
Special Character Wise: Lucius the Eternal. Nothing quite like a CC Special Character who unlocks troops that are some of the best shooters in the codex. Lets try to ignore the fact that he doesn't have eternal warrior... which makes little sense considering his fluff and the fact that ETERNAL is in his name.
Ahriman is lacking as well. ML4 and the ability to cast a witchfire three times per psychic phase is nice, but he's no more reliable casting them than a normal sorcerer (or worse, seeing as sorcerers can take a spell familiar).
Add that to the fact he's somewhat limited in terms of which schools he can use, and that all that stands before him and instant death from power fists and krak missiles is a 4++...
He can sometimes do really well, if he gets lucky, but mostly he's a massive point sink, which is very sad considering his fluff. :(
There's always the Master of Deception warlord trait of his and him dropping three psychic shrieks a turn isn't bad either. Realistically though, since the introduction of the psychic phase, He's been crippled kinda hard. If they rework the psychic phase in a way where its less of a mess, he may become viable again. That is another argument for another thread though.
Alcibiades wrote: He's eternal because whoever kiills him becomes him
If only that was represented in game...
'If Lucius is killed in a challenge, the character that killed him is removed from play and replaced with Lucius the Eternal.'
"Oh, don't worry, Draigo - I'm sure you can beat him."
It would be a good way to constantly keep enemy beatstick characters refusing challenges. But only if they don't have a sergeant to eat the challenge for them.
)
. Okay they couldnt do that before too but they werent even 
