Event info here: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bao-2015/

This event has always sold out, and year 5 should prove to be no different! Be sure to snag tickets quickly or risk missing out!

What: Bay Area Open 2015
Where: San Jose, CA
When: July 11-12

Events:

40k
Warmachine
Warzone
DzC
Hobby Classes

Will the new ITC rulings, based on the recent poll, be out before tickets go on sale?

Yes. Poll closes tomorrow, morning.

 Reecius wrote:
Yes. Poll closes tomorrow, morning.

You'll have enough time to process the info and make decisions!? Do you even sleep Reece?

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Yes. Poll closes tomorrow, morning.

You'll have enough time to process the info and make decisions!? Do you even sleep Reece?

He eats, sleeps, and breathes TT gaming like it's his job, yo!

MVBrandt wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Yes. Poll closes tomorrow, morning.

You'll have enough time to process the info and make decisions!? Do you even sleep Reece?

He eats, sleeps, and breathes TT gaming like it's his job, yo!

Maybe he just keeps Frankie locked in a cold, well lit room, with white noise until he finishes processing the results.

Haha, I have the results coming in in real time, already can tell where the ball will land on most of them, some are close.

Once I have the data tomorrow in the AM, it will only take me a few hours to compile it, update the ITC format, and open up the tickets for sale.

And we keep Frankie locked in a room for everyone else's safety, lol!

Don't listen to John! He's only going to maybe try to think about making room on the schedule if nothing else comes up.

Meanwhile, Adam and I are just waiting to see if we can bring our Knight armies or if we're going to be stay at home sad dads!

 disdainful wrote:
Don't listen to John! He's only going to maybe try to think about making room on the schedule if nothing else comes up.

Meanwhile, Adam and I are just waiting to see if we can bring our Knight armies or if we're going to be stay at home sad dads!

Hey, I never said I was even going to try! I just asked a simple question.


According to other threads, Knights never should have been allowed in the first place.

 disdainful wrote:
Don't listen to John! He's only going to maybe try to think about making room on the schedule if nothing else comes up.

Meanwhile, Adam and I are just waiting to see if we can bring our Knight armies or if we're going to be stay at home sad dads!

Adam has to be there. Someone is going to have to represent Team-One-and-Five. Adam has a reputation to maintain.

And I won't since I'm gonna bring broken eldar and Win-It-All, (with or without the WK).

Can't wait! I will def be going!

I'm getting my ticket for it tommrow, I don't care if I have to make an army that is barely playable I came up with the night before I miss 40k

 disdainful wrote:


Meanwhile, Adam and I are just waiting to see if we can bring our Knight armies or if we're going to be stay at home sad dads!

I can't see why they wouldn't be allowed since there was an all Forgeworld Knight list at this year's LVO and they are all LoW

Tickets up for sale!

We will get an answer o Knights ASAP.

Reece, if I buy a ticket but then can't make it, would I be able to sell it to someone else later on?

Tickets are fully refundable up until 30 days from the event at which point they are still transferable!

 Reecius wrote:
Tickets up for sale!

We will get an answer o Knights ASAP.

5:34 pm - BAO Tickets sold out!

5:41 pm - Hey guys we decided that Knights are OK after all - awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Got mine. I may have had to empty my account but I did.

 Reecius wrote:
Tickets up for sale!

We will get an answer o Knights ASAP.

Set the tone Reece, say Knights are good to go; be the hero 40k needs not the one the the basement posters think they need. You won't get them out of their basements no matter how you rule things

All joking aside I wait with baited breath... This post got weird fast.

I mean, why wouldn't they be?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean, why wouldn't they be?

Many people are taking all Knights being declared LoW as their chance to say since LoW are 0-1 in ITC that Knights should be disallowed as a force or cad and only allowed as a 0-1.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean, why wouldn't they be?

Many people are taking all Knights being declared LoW as their chance to say since LoW are 0-1 in ITC that Knights should be disallowed as a force or cad and only allowed as a 0-1.

It is perfectly logical to assume that (1) if LOW are 0-1; and, (2) if Knights are LOW; then, (3) you can either only take 0 or 1 of a Knight in your army. Therefore, with that LOW limitation in place, as it is written, you would not, nor should not, be able to ever take more than one Knight in your army and therefore the Knight codex is unplayable.

So ultimately, if Knights are to be allowed as a codex/army, FLG is forced to have an exception that contradicts an earlier ruling. At that point, it doesn't make sense to then limit other LOW choices such a Wraith Knights without the decision appearing a bit arbitrary.

With the nerf to D Weapons I see no problem with multiple wraithknights

Knights are not unplayable as a Codex. The OathSworn Detatchment is 1 Knight Mandatory, 0-2 optional Knights.

Oathsworn Detatchment is the only legal option for an army to take Knights in the current 0-1 LoW format.

Give us a moment to take a breath, please! lol, we will get Knights addressed. We don't even have the book yet

In the meantime, BAO 40k champs is already 26% sold out, lol! Only been up for sale for 3 hours.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Knights are not unplayable as a Codex. The OathSworn Detatchment is 1 Knight Mandatory, 0-2 optional Knights.

Oathsworn Detatchment is the only legal option for an army to take Knights in the current 0-1 LoW format.

So... You advocate taking a single Knight in an army? I dunno about you but spotting an opponent a 1400 point lead seems like a bad idea. Therefore, if you are wanting to play the codex as an army rather than a single knight, then you really don't have that option as the ITC 0-1 LOW ruling goes.

 Reecius wrote:
Give us a moment to take a breath, please! lol, we will get Knights addressed. We don't even have the book yet

NO! The Salt Gods must be appeased! :p

rollawaythestone wrote:
Knights are not unplayable as a Codex. The OathSworn Detatchment is 1 Knight Mandatory, 0-2 optional Knights.

Oathsworn Detatchment is the only legal option for an army to take Knights in the current 0-1 LoW format.

They're unplayable as a Primary army.

Oathsworn is their "Allied" detatchment so to speak

Done and done. Can't wait. Draconic awards going to be there again?

Also the possibility of multiple Gargantuan Squiggies?

No Malifaux?

Rolling cooler box. Check.
Bottle opener. Check.
Broken OP army. Check.
Still going to win maybe 50% Check.
Likely to be too ... 'happy' to care. Check.

Now officially signed up to go to my first tournament! I should be easy money, but it will be fun!

We'll work out Knights guys, hang tight on that, please.

Already 30% sold out in hours, wow!

@Mike

Yes, Draconic Awards again, this year! See you there.

@Ozy

Sorry buddy, no room. Square footage is at a premium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@brothererkose

See you there, buddy!

@Woozl

Hey, hey, that's rad! We had a bunch of first timers last year and they all got the tournament bug and were hooked. It's good fun.

I understand, but BOO!

Oh yeah I'll need to get a new bottle of Pomegranate Margarita for this year. To the liquor store!

 MikeFox wrote:
Oh yeah I'll need to get a new bottle of Pomegranate Margarita for this year. To the liquor store!

Good news. Your squiggoth is on the Good-to-play LoW list.

So, The Architect said he will buy all my alchohol for the event if I come dressed as the kingpin the first day.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 MikeFox wrote:
Oh yeah I'll need to get a new bottle of Pomegranate Margarita for this year. To the liquor store!

Good news. Your squiggoth is on the Good-to-play LoW list.

GTFO! It's almost like I checked if he was before I purchased him.....

Just got my tickets! See you guys there.

Looking at the new ITC rules.

3 sources and it says no detachments of the same type...

Does that mean I cannot bring 2 CADs? Or just not two CADs of the same faction?

Each detachment is 0-1. So basically no detachment can be duplicated and no dual CAD, even if they are of different factions.

how does that work for the decurion/umbrella type detachments? for example, with daemonkin bloodhost, after the base slaughtercult has been taken, we have 1-8 choices from a number of formations. can you not take multiples of these (for example, taking multiple war engine or gorepack formations)?

edit: on the ITC page, it says they can't take multiple formations in decurion, but can take duplicate dataslate units. would this mean in my example of the bloodhost, i could only take one gorepack, but multiple war engines? am i over complicating this?

 gigasnail wrote:
how does that work for the decurion/umbrella type detachments? for example, with daemonkin bloodhost, after the base slaughtercult has been taken, we have 1-8 choices from a number of formations. can you not take multiples of these (for example, taking multiple war engine or gorepack formations)?

edit: on the ITC page, it says they can't take multiple formations in decurion, but can take duplicate dataslate units. would this mean in my example of the bloodhost, i could only take one gorepack, but multiple war engines? am i over complicating this?

You are correct.

So in your example, you could take only 1 bloodhost, only 1 gorepack and up to 8 soulgrinders/maulerfiends (if points allow) if you want.

Great, thanks. I had missed t he da taste clarification on the ITC page when I fir st looked at it

Tickets are running low for 40k Champs! Get em while they're hot!

Reece,

Any chance we can get a ruling on knights before the last of the tickets go?

The knight codex isn't even out yet, and already expect a ruling?

My advice, buy the ticket first and the return it later if you don't like whatever ruling it is on the new Knights.

It came out last friday J, and the current 0-1 superheavy LoW rulling does have a large effect on people who run knights as primary, as in they currently cant

I completely understand that the codex has only been out since Saturday, and I know how busy Reece is, trying to coordinate quite a bit of excellent work.

I'd rather not take a ticket from a soul that wants to go regardless, so I'll bide my time and see how it plays out.

Reece is just using the time-honored presidential option of the Pocket Veto; wait 'til BAO sells out then punt, decide to leave the 0-1 restriction as is and deal with Knights later.

I can dig it. I just gotta figure out if there's another army I can get ready in time or I'll be a Sad Panda.

Well I plan on going whatever the decision but I am really hoping I can bring my 5 Knights. Why? Not because I think it will win me the tournament but because I want to finish my games quickly.

We aren't going to invalidate an entire codex, everyone, we are bouncing some ideas around but if you are a Knight player your entire army did not just become moot.

We will have a decision this week.

An entire Codex is not made illegal, just aspects of it. (like certain formations) Seriously why is this even a thing? If GW came out with a codex that was Codex:Wraithknights, it would be "ban it with fire". I strongly dislike the special snowflake allowances because GW didn't appropriately declare them LoW to begin with.

Don't get me wrong I like knights, I am bringing a knight even, but there are other LoW, superheavies that aren't getting that special treatment of 'it'll get addressed' and to me that seems a bit daft.

Yeah, I want to use a knight and a macharious

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, I want to use a knight and a macharious

And if multi-knights are allowed that should be as well

 z3n1st wrote:
An entire Codex is not made illegal, just aspects of it. (like certain formations) Seriously why is this even a thing? If GW came out with a codex that was Codex:Wraithknights, it would be "ban it with fire". I strongly dislike the special snowflake allowances because GW didn't appropriately declare them LoW to begin with.

Don't get me wrong I like knights, I am bringing a knight even, but there are other LoW, superheavies that aren't getting that special treatment of 'it'll get addressed' and to me that seems a bit daft.

Because no other LoW is its own army/faction that the Knights are?

 z3n1st wrote:
An entire Codex is not made illegal, just aspects of it. (like certain formations) Seriously why is this even a thing? If GW came out with a codex that was Codex:Wraithknights, it would be "ban it with fire". I strongly dislike the special snowflake allowances because GW didn't appropriately declare them LoW to begin with.

Don't get me wrong I like knights, I am bringing a knight even, but there are other LoW, superheavies that aren't getting that special treatment of 'it'll get addressed' and to me that seems a bit daft.

Here in lies the problem. We should be playing 40k not some bastardized version. Knights have their own codex, the idea of banning a codex (or the majority of one) is asinine. It does nothing but set a terrible precedence leading us down the slippery slope of having to carry around, and/or learn, massive additional rulesets and list building criteria for every tournament you want to participate in.

Cue the blame GW for blah, blah, blah, because I don't want to deal with reality arguments.

Sigh.

This is the exact reaction we knew would come.

"If they can use multiple LoW, why can't I?!"

The only thing that has changed with Knights is that they got the LoW tag. Literally nothing else has changed with Knights. They are an entire codex and while we totally understand folks feeling left out, the Codex in this instance consists of essentially, a single model. So, unless we want to make an entire Faction all but unplayable (and yes, it would be if they could only take a single model, lol), we have to make an exception in this case.

If Codex: Wraithknight does indeed come along, well, we'd have to adjust. Although honestly, who is going to say the Wraithknight and Imperial Knight are in the same league? They quite simply are not. A Wraithknight is much better. Plus, Eldar have the rest of their book to draw on for very good units. Knights have 1 unit. They have no other options. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

Most people do not want to come to a tournament and play apocalypse or Escalation every game. We have to be reasonable and consider all of the factors; not just a black and white comparison to every other book as that isn't going to give an accurate picture.

Anyway, we will make a decision on this topic this week. Thank you for your feedback, everyone.

While it logically follows that (1) if ITC has the rule 0-1 LOW and (2) Knights are all LOW; therefore, (3) you shouldn't be able to play the Knight codex because it would require more than one Knight...

ITC is its own thing and is free to make whatever rules seem best for their event. You see, ITC set that limitation in the first place-not based on an arbitrary or capricious whim but based on reasoned discussion and considerations of what is best/most fun for their perceived player base. Therefore, they are free to make exceptions and modifications to the rules for their format as they see fit.

So in the end, ITC isn't telling you how you have to play 40k, you don't have to play in an ITC events. I personally don't like that you can't double up on formations and various other rulings but if I want to play in their events, everyone is playing by the same rules and part of the fun is coming up with a list that will succeed in that given format. That is like choosing to play in a highlander format event and complaining about only being able to take one of everything.

Reecius wrote:Sigh.

This is the exact reaction we knew would come.

"If they can use multiple LoW, why can't I?!"

The only thing that has changed with Knights is that they got the LoW tag. Literally nothing else has changed with Knights. They are an entire codex and while we totally understand folks feeling left out, the Codex in this instance consists of essentially, a single model. So, unless we want to make an entire Faction all but unplayable (and yes, it would be if they could only take a single model, lol), we have to make an exception in this case.

If Codex: Wraithknight does indeed come along, well, we'd have to adjust. Although honestly, who is going to say the Wraithknight and Imperial Knight are in the same league? They quite simply are not. A Wraithknight is much better. Plus, Eldar have the rest of their book to draw on for very good units. Knights have 1 unit. They have no other options. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

Most people do not want to come to a tournament and play apocalypse or Escalation every game. We have to be reasonable and consider all of the factors; not just a black and white comparison to every other book as that isn't going to give an accurate picture.

Anyway, we will make a decision on this topic this week. Thank you for your feedback, everyone.

mortetvie wrote:While it logically follows that (1) if ITC has the rule 0-1 LOW and (2) Knights are all LOW; therefore, (3) you shouldn't be able to play the Knight codex because it would require more than one Knight...

ITC is its own thing and is free to make whatever rules seem best for their event. You see, ITC set that limitation in the first place-not based on an arbitrary or capricious whim but based on reasoned discussion and considerations of what is best/most fun for their perceived player base. Therefore, they are free to make exceptions and modifications to the rules for their format as they see fit.

So in the end, ITC isn't telling you how you have to play 40k, you don't have to play in an ITC events. I personally don't like that you can't double up on formations and various other rulings but if I want to play in their events, everyone is playing by the same rules and part of the fun is coming up with a list that will succeed in that given format.

Both exalted.

I trust the Frontline/ITC guys will make the decision thats best for the ITC scene

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I trust the Frontline/ITC guys will make the decision thats best for the ITC scene

This many years into it I would be surprised if they did anything that turned out catastrophic. While not everyone agrees 100%, and no one ever will, they do genuinely care about not ruining 40k.

I don't envy them the decision. There isn't an answer that someone won't get butthurt about.

Yes, they are the hero we need and the ones we deserve

Thank you for the support and confidence, guys, much appreciated.

And yeah, no matter what we do, some folks will be pissed at us and I will get angry emails, regardless. Sucks, but oh well. We will still have fun with our toys, damn it! lol

 Reecius wrote:
Thank you for the support and confidence, guys, much appreciated.

And yeah, no matter what we do, some folks will be pissed at us and I will get angry emails, regardless. Sucks, but oh well. We will still have fun with our toys, damn it! lol

But, but, what's the decision?

Any chance on loosing the tcyte firing ruling as well? Because it's bad.

 gigasnail wrote:
Any chance on loosing the tcyte firing ruling as well? Because it's bad.

if your trying to type d scythe it's been nerfed with str d.
The rules for it are
Roll of 2-5 d2 wounds hull
Roll of 6 2 wounds no saves

Meaning d scythes are
1-2 nothing
3-6 d2 wounds

That's a big cut down meaning 1/3 the time you are getting 0, 1/3 the time you do 1 wound/hull, and 1/3 the time you do 2 wounds/hull
And you won't be able to insta death all those toughness 2 lists you fight anymore :p

This means firedragons are actually better then wraiths at killing vehicles as they should be. I like these rules better then nova's change with short d range. Now we need to just nerf scatterlasers to str 5.

No man, Tyrannocytes.

Only 19 tickets left!

@Reecius dude. psssst. tyrannocytes. ; ;

 gigasnail wrote:
@Reecius dude. psssst. tyrannocytes. ; ;

No, it's not going to change. Not enough people complain about it to warrant any changes.

Honestly, it's not that bad. MC's can only fire 2 guns anyway. The fact that it has 5 guns that it can fire is balanced by the faq that probably at most 2 can fire at any 1 single target due to firing arcs.

Also, a 75-pt 6W MC that is also a transport and that can fire 15 S5 shots a turn is under-costed IMO. I'm just glad that we can get tranports for our army.

Agreed, Wish I could go.

it's undercosted, in the era of eldar?

really?

edit: also, we did raise the issue when Reece first added them to the FAQ. his response on the FLG comments was something along the line of 'well, that's how we think it should be played.' didn't really leave a lot of room for feedback. there was never a vote or chance to raise any points from the community (unlike the poll with the eldar and D weapons).

don't get me wrong, i really appreciate the work he does for the community and i understand it's not possible to please everyone all the time.

No, not currently with the FAQ, but the ability to fire 15 shots a turn every turn (and at the same target) makes it pretty good for its money.

And you've got to use another army besides Eldar as a yardstick. The new Eldar is just an aberration if you look to them as your standard. Compare to Eldar, almost every single unit in every single codex could use a buff. It's like trying to compare your Honda Civic to a Ferrari when you should be comparing it to other 4-cylinder cars in terms of its performance.

 jy2 wrote:
No, not currently with the FAQ, but the ability to fire 15 shots a turn every turn (and at the same target) makes it pretty good for its money.

And you've got to use another army besides Eldar as a yardstick. The new Eldar is just an aberration if you look to them as your standard. Compare to Eldar, almost every single unit in every single codex could use a buff.

15 shots at BS2 with no way to TL them or get ignores cover. 5 S5 AP5 hits, scary. the blasts are nearly as dangerous to your army as to the enemy.

the eldar are certainly an aberration (in general, but that's besides the point) but if their firepower and mobility is allowed, there's no reason to arbitrarily nerf other less effective units, not without feed back or results from the community that something is game breakingly wrong with them.

It could be worse with 5 large blasts (for horde army, that is). But the fact is, they probably won't make any changes to it if not enough people "make a stink" about it. You're more likely to see changes to the LoW status for the new knights than you are for changes to the t-cytes. The sad truth is that most Tyranid players are fine with this change. They're just happy to have a delivery transport for their MC's again (and on a non-immobile transport that can still go after objectives!). Anything else beyond that is just gravy.

no one i know of is 'fine' with it, we didn't make more of a stink because we kind of got blown off when it was first brought up. there was never a reason for the change to begin with. i don't think asking for a non-broken unit to actually do what it's designed to do is shooting the moon.

I still don't smell anything. I think you need to put a little more "stink" into it.

working on it.

 gigasnail wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
No, not currently with the FAQ, but the ability to fire 15 shots a turn every turn (and at the same target) makes it pretty good for its money.

And you've got to use another army besides Eldar as a yardstick. The new Eldar is just an aberration if you look to them as your standard. Compare to Eldar, almost every single unit in every single codex could use a buff.

15 shots at BS2 with no way to TL them or get ignores cover. 5 S5 AP5 hits, scary. the blasts are nearly as dangerous to your army as to the enemy.

the eldar are certainly an aberration (in general, but that's besides the point) but if their firepower and mobility is allowed, there's no reason to arbitrarily nerf other less effective units, not without feed back or results from the community that something is game breakingly wrong with them.

I have to agree. The Unit was nerfed for no good reason. It was not OP in anyway. the rule needs clearing I will give you that but it was hardly a issue.
I have had guys put 5 man units in the blind spots it has now with the ruling. It has huge blind spots. the 45 degree thing is fun as all get out. Completely ignoring the MC rule is crazy. Heck just splitting the unit in half and saying this half has to fire at the unit closer to it would have made more since.

Why two guns can't swivel to fire at the same unit I will never know. How can weapon pods on a land raider or a tank have more flexibility then a Living MC I will never now. 45 should be more like 120 to at lest give the MC rule some meaning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
It could be worse with 5 large blasts (for horde army, that is). But the fact is, they probably won't make any changes to it if not enough people "make a stink" about it. You're more likely to see changes to the LoW status for the new knights than you are for changes to the t-cytes. The sad truth is that most Tyranid players are fine with this change. They're just happy to have a delivery transport for their MC's again (and on a non-immobile transport that can still go after objectives!). Anything else beyond that is just gravy.

I know no Tyranid player that is OK with that ruling, not one. Heck most of us didn't even know it was a issue till we went to a ITC event and was surprised by it. I never even seen it raised as a issue on frontline gaming website. It just appeared in the FAQ. I was what the heck. I never got a good answer on it when I asked. Even when I asked Recee at TSFT. He said some people talked about it some where, and made the ruling, and that their was no way to contest it.

I understand the need to clear up the rule as it is badly written. But to ignore the MC rule completely and then limit it shooting to a 45 angle for each gun is a slap in the face to the unit. It's shooting is not scary at all when compered to the new armies that are out there. Any two guns next to each other should be able to target the same unit really.

As for stink go to the Tyranid Hive and ask this question. Everyone there will tell you the same thing. We are all scratching our heads on this one to be sure.

I play in a regional tournament scene in the southern US (mostly Atlanta area) and no one (that I've heard) has complained that the Tyrannocyte was overpowered for being able to fire all of it's weapons at the same target. In fact, that's usually the only way that most people can actually get it to do something during the game.

Let's be real 25 Str 5 AP 5 Shots @ BS2 aren't going to do much. Orks don't win because they throw 25 shots at you, they win because they throw 3 x that amount at you!

I agree with Giga & Shadowfinder that a proper discussion for this rule should be had.

Of course, the ITC is YOUR tournament series, and you certainly are allowed to make up any rules or make any decisions in regards to how rules are interpreted at your event that you want!

Thank you for running a tournament, loving the hobby and trying to bring balance to the Force!

Not that story or fluff should really drive any logical interpretation of the rules, but when reading the description of the rule the Tyrannocyte MAY fire it's weapons at different targets, but it MUST fire all of it's weapons at the nearest target. I imagine it floating in the air rotating and if unit "X" is the closest unit to the Tyrannocyte, then all 5 guns fire at unit "X" as it spins on its axis.

Just my $0.02

Thanks again for putting all of the work into a tournament, FAQ, decisions, polls and everything else you do for the hobby.

I don't want to throw this thread any more off-track, so all I will say is this.

If you want to see a change to any of these rules, email Frontline. Get all your friends to email Frontline as well. If enough voices are raised, I can guarantee you that they will re-evaluate the rulings, if not publicly then privately with the ITC counsel.

Just FYI, ITC and Adepticon rule it the same way with regards to the Tyrannocyte (45 degree firing arcs). Nova and ETC do not have this restriction.

The ITC rules for Tyrannocytes are a stinker, and I feel sorry for you guys. It makes perhaps little difference for a single pod, but basically invalidates a pod-spam build (like mine).
The ETC has the proper interpretation of the Instinctive Fire rule:

8. Because of Instinctive Fire, a Tyrannocyte will fire all of its guns at the closest target. Measure range to and
from the MC's base to find out which model or unit will be the target of the shooting attack.

This is how it should be.

BAO 40k champs is sold out! Wow, that went fast, just about a week and the 40k champs is full at 128. Going to be a blast!

@thread

Some of the rulings in the FAQ are from before we ran polls, etc. The FAQ council is comprised of TOs from many of the big events such as the BAO, LVO (which is obviously us at FLG), Adepticon, FoB, Wargames Con, etc. Sometimes the council votes on issues that impact their events, so, it is not always handled the same way. When FLG rules on things that only impact our events, we handle it in a different manner.

That is why there can appear to be inconsistencies from one decision to another.

As for individual rulings? Yeah, people always think we got some of them "wrong," just goes with the territory. No matter which way we rule, some group will feel like it is incorrect. It is not possible to please everyone and we accept that. Again, as always, it is better to have an FAQ which you may not agree with 100% of than no FAQ at all. You have to accept the good with the bad.

I could certainly see the point of the change if there was ever a problem with the unit, but that wasn't the case. It was changed before most of us even had the model put together, much less fielded.

I'll continue to try to get people on the hive to email their feedback. The unit is borderline as it is. If you're going to castrate it's shooting output, change its point cost back to 45.

 Reecius wrote:
BAO 40k champs is sold out! Wow, that went fast, just about a week and the 40k champs is full at 128. Going to be a blast!

@thread

Some of the rulings in the FAQ are from before we ran polls, etc. The FAQ council is comprised of TOs from many of the big events such as the BAO, LVO (which is obviously us at FLG), Adepticon, FoB, Wargames Con, etc. Sometimes the council votes on issues that impact their events, so, it is not always handled the same way. When FLG rules on things that only impact our events, we handle it in a different manner.

That is why there can appear to be inconsistencies from one decision to another.

As for individual rulings? Yeah, people always think we got some of them "wrong," just goes with the territory. No matter which way we rule, some group will feel like it is incorrect. It is not possible to please everyone and we accept that. Again, as always, it is better to have an FAQ which you may not agree with 100% of than no FAQ at all. You have to accept the good with the bad.

Congrats on selling out. I hoping to get to the Next LVO.

I know you all are working hard on the tournaments you run and the ITC league. As a community we are glad we have a FAQ that's being used so widely. Was just wondering if there was a area or a email// forum for the counsel that makes the FAQ decision's. This way we can ask for faq on units or rules that come out. and fix's on units that need to be revisited list the one gsnail is suggesting.

The only problem with that is most of the guys on the council are normal fellas with families and lives. If they made themselves available the way I do, it would be overwhelming. I have the benefit of doing this professionally, and so have time to answer questions and such, whereas the other guys don't.

We try to make it as interactive as possible so folks feel like they have a say in what goes on, but if we sat down and had a debate over every ruling in the FAQ someone didn't agree with (and trust me, at least one person out there disagrees with every thing in the FAQ, haha) we'd never get anything done. There comes a point when a choice has to be made and we move on, or it would bog down in debate that would never end. I am sure you have been to YMDC, the arguments become circular and endless. We don't have time to debate everything, particularly with the break-neck pace of releases.

It sucks when folks strongly disagree with a ruling, but it is what it is. If we flip-flopped on rulings just because someone got upset, it would be chaos. We do the best we can, with the time we have to get it done.

As for new things, we try to get to them as fast as we can, but normal life can get in the way of us being able to get to brand new materials. You can email me if you are TO'ing an ITC event and need some assistance and I will get an answer to you as fast as I can (sometimes it can take me a few days if things get backed up).

So, yeah, it is an imperfect system, but it's the best solution we've come across so far. Hope to see you at the LVO! It's going to be so bad ass this year, can't wait!

Reece, I serve Alcohol, When you cut someone off, even if you are wrong and they complain, you dont go back. IF you do it means you can be bullied into changing.
I disagree with the Knight Ruling. Infact I still think keeping escalation is just weird.
But dont go back. Keep the ruling if you think that is right for now.
Dont make people think you can be bullied.

no one's bullying anyone. we're requesting (politely) the rules be played as written, because there's not an issue with them and the ruling makes the unit a bad choice to bring in a competitive environment. the FAQ was dropped on everyone with no feedback taken and before the unit was even widely fielded. when asked about the choices, we were blown off.

contrast this to the polls about IK and eldar, and how that's been handled.

i totally get you can't keep everyone happy with every ruling, and we appreciate the work Reece and his crew have done. all people are asking is that if there aren't changes that need to be made from a balance or clear rules problem, then really, should we be making changes to the rules?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Reece, I serve Alcohol, When you cut someone off, even if you are wrong and they complain, you dont go back. IF you do it means you can be bullied into changing.
I disagree with the Knight Ruling. Infact I still think keeping escalation is just weird.
But dont go back. Keep the ruling if you think that is right for now.
Dont make people think you can be bullied.

"Yeah, Reece. Don't be a waffle. Mmmmm, blue berries."

Edit: Nevermind

 jy2 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
@Reecius dude. psssst. tyrannocytes. ; ;

No, it's not going to change. Not enough people complain about it to warrant any changes.

Honestly, it's not that bad. MC's can only fire 2 guns anyway. The fact that it has 5 guns that it can fire is balanced by the faq that probably at most 2 can fire at any 1 single target due to firing arcs.

Also, a 75-pt 6W MC that is also a transport and that can fire 15 S5 shots a turn is under-costed IMO. I'm just glad that we can get tranports for our army.

We don't use ITC in antipodean NZ so the ruling has no effect on me either way. However, I want to show solidarity for my American hive brothers. In every tournament game I've played (admittedly not many) my opponent either allows all 5 guns to fire because its a Monstrous Creature or lets me shoot them all as long as I can draw line of sight from the muzzle of the gun. They are not vehicle mounted guns and BS2 + turn 2 arrival offsets the number of shots. In fact, if you put Venom Cannons on them, you can hurt yourself more than your opponent.

Sold Out!

Can I get on the waitlist?

Not really interested in 40k Champs but is there a narrative event or anything similar at BAO?

Edit: Like the (in)famous "friendlies" I've heard of at other events...

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Sold Out!

Can I get on the waitlist?

I was going to buy my ticket on Thursday. Can you put me on the waitlist?

I bought mine like when it energy on sale

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I bought mine like when it energy on sale

What?

Overwatch & Blackmoor: total fail, gentlemen. The community is shocked and ashamed.

I don't see the ruling as a game changer. Nidz are still viable.

the army's viable, sure. not disputing it. nids are in general are in a good place, after IA4v2 and the supplements putting some meat on their bones.

but the pods? not really, no.

I meant I got my Ticket the second it went on sale.
Reece Really hyped it up by saying every podcast he has "Buy now, they go fast" when I bet if he didnt he would have still sold out, just not as fast.

I was eyeing those tickets as they went down and considered buying one several times, however, having passed the California Bar examination I'll be spending the next few months setting up my law practice and just can't justify the time or money =(.

I wish everyone the best of time and great success!

@Mortetvie

Congratz on passing the Bar, bro, that's awesome!

Still room in the Warmachine events! And we will have DzC and Malifaux one day events as well.

So, if the rumor is true, and the codex will be Arriving June 13, what will it be. Will we be forced to play the new codex or can we choose the old one? because it looks like it is withing 30 days

Within 30 days we allow players to use either book, but cannot take both books through allies or what have you.

Don't cross streams! lol

I get it. Just wanted to make sure.

Malifaux added to the schedule! https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bao-2015/

DzC only has 4 spots left!

Anyone have some good hotel recommendations?

 nickthewise wrote:
Anyone have some good hotel recommendations?

I answered via PM.

Anyone drop out yet? Hint hint. Anyone want to sell me their ticket?

 mortetvie wrote:
I was eyeing those tickets as they went down and considered buying one several times, however, having passed the California Bar examination I'll be spending the next few months setting up my law practice and just can't justify the time or money =(.

I wish everyone the best of time and great success!

Woot! Congrats dude.

 doktor_g wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
I was eyeing those tickets as they went down and considered buying one several times, however, having passed the California Bar examination I'll be spending the next few months setting up my law practice and just can't justify the time or money =(.

I wish everyone the best of time and great success!

Woot! Congrats dude.

Thanks, already working on a law suit and several transactions for clients so free time is no longer "free" lol. Good luck at the event if you are going, wish I could go with my Wraithstar and continue to prove Wraithblades are not bad.

OK. So I'm going to be that guy. Are you allowing the new skyhammer formation? You know, the supposedly OP, web exclusive? Because... I might have bought it

Edited with correct formation...Ooops!

Are you referring to the Skyhammer Annihilation force?

 Reecius wrote:
Are you referring to the Skyhammer Annihilation force?

Maybe...

Seriously though yes I am.

Why the price spike, almost kills it for me. TBH feels more like a manipulation but whatever (Riptide on ebay > BAO Ticket). I need to get wait listed too please. I thought it would be in later July and did not expect it to sell out so fast.

@Jamie

I'll give you a pass on complaining about the ticket price (which has not increased, BTW, it has stayed the same for several years, now) because you are so young. If you knew how expensive these things are to run, and saw it from our perspective, you would understand better why things cost what they cost and see that the price is actually more than fair. And besides, what good is getting another eBay Riptide if you don't have a cool tournament to go play it at?

@OverwatchCNC

Yes, we are allowing it, as we allow all the Formations at present. We just have to decide how to interpret some aspects of it.

 Reecius wrote:
@Jamie

I'll give you a pass on complaining about the ticket price (which has not increased, BTW, it has stayed the same for several years, now) because you are so young. If you knew how expensive these things are to run, and saw it from our perspective, you would understand better why things cost what they cost and see that the price is actually more than fair. And besides, what good is getting another eBay Riptide if you don't have a cool tournament to go play it at?

@OverwatchCNC

Yes, we are allowing it, as we allow all the Formations at present. We just have to decide how to interpret some aspects of it.

Such as...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@Jamie

I'll give you a pass on complaining about the ticket price (which has not increased, BTW, it has stayed the same for several years, now) because you are so young. If you knew how expensive these things are to run, and saw it from our perspective, you would understand better why things cost what they cost and see that the price is actually more than fair. And besides, what good is getting another eBay Riptide if you don't have a cool tournament to go play it at?

@OverwatchCNC

Yes, we are allowing it, as we allow all the Formations at present. We just have to decide how to interpret some aspects of it.

Such as...

The first few BAOs were $50 but they were held in what amounted to a barn with concrete floors so a $25 bump for the venue to have, AC/Carpeting/Lighting/WiFi/Restrooms that aren't the result of mid 20th century Fair Ground construction, plus much more, is more than worth it.

First BAO was $55, second was $65, we bumped up to $75 after that and have stayed there for the past few years. But whatever, it's not a big issue, and yes, the venue is infinitely better!

As for the Skyhammer formation the big point of contention is if you can join characters to it and benefit from the Formation rules or not. I read it as no.

Honestly, for what you get, I am surprised the price was ever as low as $55-$65.

well structured tournaments at a good venue, with good organizational/administrative support , good prize support and good quality opponents is not something that can easily be measured in terms of dollars and cents.

The experience you get at a tournament such as BAO is worth far more than just $75 IMO and if you are buying a Riptide at $75, I think you are doing it wrong =).

The cost in terms of blood, sweat and money to put on an event, any event, is a lot more than people realize. I'd say it probably costs more to set-up and run the BAO than it does for me to start up my own law practice .

 Reecius wrote:
First BAO was $55, second was $65, we bumped up to $75 after that and have stayed there for the past few years. But whatever, it's not a big issue, and yes, the venue is infinitely better!

As for the Skyhammer formation the big point of contention is if you can join characters to it and benefit from the Formation rules or not. I read it as no.

Ha, that didn't even cross my mind. I wasn't planning on trying that anyway so I'm happy.

 Reecius wrote:
@Jamie

I'll give you a pass on complaining about the ticket price (which has not increased, BTW, it has stayed the same for several years, now) because you are so young. If you knew how expensive these things are to run, and saw it from our perspective, you would understand better why things cost what they cost and see that the price is actually more than fair. And besides, what good is getting another eBay Riptide if you don't have a cool tournament to go play it at?

Yeah but I' wont use my age as a cop out. U rite daddy, you rite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How long is this wait list? I feel like its going to be colossal. AKA should you put me out of my misery now? Suspense is killer.

I don't think I ever made it on to the wait list.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I don't think I ever made it on to the wait list.

I emailed Reece about 15 minutes after it sold out and I just got mine through the wait list on Monday. It is probably a long list.

@mortetvie

Thanks for the kind words, appreciated!

@Farsight

You have 4 people ahead of you on the wait list at this time.

@Blackmoor

I just added you to the waitlist, you're currently number 10. The list has a shrunk a ton as Overwatch noted, it's half of what it was. We're getting close to the event, but walk-ins should be good to go. Like clockwork, we've always had about a 10% no show ratio at every event we've ever run.

Reece, apologies if you answered this already, what is the venue stance on alcohol? Can we bring it in, buy it there, is it run by Amish and so not allowed etc?

EDIT: Perhaps more importantly (sorry Casey), what will the ruling be on the new Space Marine codex and Daemonology? Do they have access to both Malefic and Sanctic as per the hardback or just Sanctic as per the digital codex?

I've been told it's both Sanctic and Malefic Demonology Marines.

 Julnlecs wrote:
I've been told it's both Sanctic and Malefic Demonology Marines.

By an ITC official?

The council hasn't had a chance to discuss, so for now play it as both. However, I understand that the digital version specifies only Sanctic which if that is the case, we will likely go with that.

 Reecius wrote:
The council hasn't had a chance to discuss, so for now play it as both. However, I understand that the digital version specifies only Sanctic which if that is the case, we will likely go with that.

Ok cool. We can get a for sure ruling day of the event or will it be ruled on a game by game basis depending upon the judge called over? I'm not trying to be combative Reece I just want to make sure prior to packing up my models!

Random rules question that may come up (it has come up in some practice games).

Necron Gauss specifically says it auto glances on a 6 against vehicles and buildings. How does this work against projected void shields? Since they are neither vehicles nor buildings (they just have an AV of 12), RAW I'd imagine the answer is the Gauss rule does not work against Void Shields but wanted to know your thoughts for my Necron friends going up there.

Officially, yes, you can use both at BAO =)

We're reading it as yes, it does work.

 Reecius wrote:
Officially, yes, you can use both at BAO =)

We're reading it as yes, it does work.

Was this answer directed entirely towards Overwatch's question or was it answering his and mine?

 mortetvie wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Officially, yes, you can use both at BAO =)

We're reading it as yes, it does work.

Was this answer directed entirely towards Overwatch's question or was it answering his and mine?

First answer was to me. Second to you.

Just 'cause it needs to be said:


Grant GTA: Your 7 foot plus frame can't hide from me, punk. I wanna rematch! Don't let your 2014 victory go to your head!

That Goeff guy. You might out-weigh me, in sheer muscle, 2:1, (just his left bicep) but I'm ready. Bring it!

Jim Yeh - Bring those 5 land raiders! Compensate for Scatbike spam! I don't care!

Some kid named Jamie: *points*

Some punk named 'Reese'. I wanna Round 1 challenge, man. You cheese wielding, punk! My Eldar-tau will p'own you!

Adam M. (somedude) I got your painting score in my shorts!

Israel who?!!!?!?

Obidiah what?!??!?!



Best regards,
Casey H.
Team Beer Hammer

I owe you a rematch too, Casey. Why didn't you mention me? You ain't want none of this o what?



nWo blackshirts GT Team Member

 Julnlecs wrote:
I owe you a rematch too, Casey. Why didn't you mention me? You ain't want none of this o what?

nWo blackshirts GT Team Member

Well, yea, man. You scare the crap outta me. Sir.

(needs emoticon that is saluting)

And there's the BAO 2013 Champion, too. I ain't callin' her out neither. Prolly can snap me in half with just her left arm ... respectfully submitted.

Ma'am.


I'm not worried about that Blackmoor, though. We all know what a sweet old woman he is.

Pfft doesnt matter. My Skyhammer will anhillate you ALL!!!!!!!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Pfft doesnt matter. My Skyhammer will anhillate you ALL!!!!!!!

Good point, hsm.

On a serious note:
I faced OverWatchCNC's SkyHammer last night. He went after the WraithKnight, of course. I put in 500 points of Tau Interceptors, and they took out 2 Assault Marines! Only 2!

Then those 4 Gravguns and M-meltas got rolling ... but ultimately, the SkyHammer Jumpers only killed 4 Crisis Suits. NightFight and Ruin Cover Saves took a lot of wind out of that grav-fueled sail.

I did one or two smart things and the dice did the rest. SkyHammer missed. However, one game does not the meta make.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*looks over previous post* Oh, I might have to go back and edit that one away ...

Meh, I have only played this list once.
Im gonna loose

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Meh, I have only played this list once.
Im gonna loose

I'll PM you with some ideas. I faced it twice, and I think I know something!

But I ain't gonna share it out like, you know, on a public forum or nothing!

Can't wait to see everyone! The team is in full speed now, preparations are going smoothly, should be a great time!

I can easily see SH dominating at BAO ! Go Space Marines !!!

Will be rooting for all Ad Mech

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Will be rooting for all Ad Mech

I'm rooting for a spoiler army like a Skitarri/CM assault list to win. If I don't win that is...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Meh, I have only played this list once.
Im gonna loose

I'll PM you with some ideas. I faced it twice, and I think I know something!

But I ain't gonna share it out like, you know, on a public forum or nothing!

There is a Jon Snow joke in there somewhere Casey. Hold up, I'll find it.

Every army should have a smashfacker.

 Reecius wrote:
Can't wait to see everyone! The team is in full speed now, preparations are going smoothly, should be a great time!

Im coming down to help early too. cant wait. Me, Keno & Rawdogger are coming down together

Alright everybody, we're leaving for the BAO tomorrow afternoon. If you follow Capture and Control at all you know I live update the blogs Facebook page during local tournaments. I plan to do the same for the BAO so if you want up to date information during the event like the Capture and Control Facebook page. I will try to take shots of the match ups so we can track whose on top and post pictures from my rounds and of cool armies and happenings at the con. I've posted a few things on Capture and Control about my prepping for the event and TFG Radio did a couple podcasts about it. The last one had Travis, Adam, and Alan "Blackmoor" Hernandez talking shop.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Capture-and-Control/361497560630086?ref=br_tf
https://www.facebook.com/thosefnguys?fref=ts

Will there be any table open for games tonight

Best of luck everyone!

@Casey

you ready to lose to a 16 year old? I cant wait to laugh my ass off

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
@Casey

you ready to lose to a 16 year old? I cant wait to laugh my ass off

That probably depends on if you can win any of your games, Commander.

Good luck to everyone!

 mortetvie wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
@Casey

you ready to lose to a 16 year old? I cant wait to laugh my ass off

That probably depends on if you can win any of your games, Commander.

Good luck to everyone!

Too bad you couldn't make it Mortetvie. Sucks that sometimes, just sometimes, life gets in our way but yeah, whatever.

Hope to see you at the LVO.

And good luck to all!

First 30 pictures are up on the Capture and Control Facebook page, lots of cool armies!

Overwatch is it just a matter of not getting all the armies or is there a disproportionate amount of Demi/battle companies? Seems like almost all the pics are marines, but that could be just because those are just what you took photos of idk.

3x Chaos Space Marines in the top ten after 3 games, this has to be ITC not distinguishing from khorne daemonkin right?

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/07/11/tits-tournaments-bay-area-open-2015-coverage/

 mortetvie wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
@Casey

you ready to lose to a 16 year old? I cant wait to laugh my ass off

That probably depends on if you can win any of your games, Commander.

Good luck to everyone!

went 2/1 yesterday with the loss because my opponent got the luckiest stomp and took out shadowsun and the buffsuit on turn 1 or 2. Downhill after that but still got 4 points

Is that results sheet sharing everyone's personal information?

It looks it's sharing email addresses.

MVBrandt wrote:
Is that results sheet sharing everyone's personal information?

Only home addresses, social security numbers, and bank account numbers. Was that wrong? Was I not supposed to do that? Because if I had known that was frowned upon I wouldn't have done that.

Who won ?

Pajama pants vs. Tombking in the finals

Go Tombking !!!

Pajama pants won

Pajama pants got his BAO revenge from what like 2 years ago, haha awesome.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Pajama pants got his BAO revenge from what like 2 years ago, haha awesome.

What happened two years ago?

Also, anyone get a bead on that Renegades armor plus tau list?

Breazeal wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Pajama pants got his BAO revenge from what like 2 years ago, haha awesome.

What happened two years ago?

Also, anyone get a bead on that Renegades armor plus tau list?

Alan lost in the finals to Lizz

Yea it was a tough match... it came down to first blood which i was kind enough to not take when i had the chance... completely lapsed on it being a bonus point. Won the primary but maelstrom i had some bad luck turn 1 and 2 with my maelstrom rolls and failing some key leaderships. Lost maelstrom by 1 point. Score was 6 to 5 Alan! I will have the tournament report up hopefully sometime later this week.

Cant wait to hear about it. That had to be an epic slug out. Tje D thirster didnt seem to make too big of a splash when it first came out but seems to have worked its way into quite a few competitive daemons lists. And @tombking your list looked absolutely brutal by the way. I feel like pj had to have had at least a little luck on his side in the way of his psychic powers that match to have survived the taudar onslaught

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
@Casey

you ready to lose to a 16 year old? I cant wait to laugh my ass off

Yee wee little whippersnapper! I'll school ya some day.

Heard everything went really well! Congrats to Pajamapants for winning and Incontrol for 2nd!!!

I am looking forward to attending my first bao next year!!!

See you all at lvo!

Hearing great things, as usual. Congrats to all those who did well and all those who had a great time. Looking forward to seeing InControl and many more at NOVA and perhaps some west coast events next year!

 krootman. wrote:
Heard everything went really well! Congrats to Pajamapants for winning and Incontrol for 2nd!!!

I am looking forward to attending my first bao next year!!!

See you all at lvo!

Congratulations to both! Are either of their lists available yet?

Chancetragedy wrote:
Overwatch is it just a matter of not getting all the armies or is there a disproportionate amount of Demi/battle companies? Seems like almost all the pics are marines, but that could be just because those are just what you took photos of idk.

There were a lot of Marine armies.

Thanks everyone Was a really really good tourney! Had a ton of nice terrain and of course with the fat mats it looked amazing too. My opponents were awesome and fun to play to boot. I really think the War Convocation is a force to be reckoned with. Will write up an article on it.

iNcontroL wrote:
Thanks everyone Was a really really good tourney! Had a ton of nice terrain and of course with the fat mats it looked amazing too. My opponents were awesome and fun to play to boot. I really think the War Convocation is a force to be reckoned with. Will write up an article on it.

What did you run?

Very curious to see the top 8 lists.

It was an excellent event. I ended up going 3-2 with an exceptionally tough rounds 3 and 5 against great opponents. Round 3 I lost by a single Maelstrom point!

Here is my round by round, list, and all 119 pictures I took.
http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2015/07/bay-area-open-2015-wrap-up-and-all-119.html

That is a very respectable record.

All those free points! Summoning, battle company, war convo... Free point lists held half the top 8 going into round 5. Seems like the name of the game nowadays.

Congratulations to both! Are either of their lists available yet?

TastyTaste did a write-up before the event and has a couple of the lists pre-event. Not sure if they changed but they are there in the link below. Includes Sisks, Pajamapants, InControl and a couple of other notables.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/07/09/tits-tournaments-bay-area-open-2015-coverage-begins/

Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
All those free points! Summoning, battle company, war convo... Free point lists held half the top 8 going into round 5. Seems like the name of the game nowadays.

"Points values. Who needs them?" - GW long term strategy director. Actual quote.

There is nothing wrong with that philosophy.

BAO Day 1 was really fun, day 2 was gak for me I went 2/1 on the first day with a really close game one (7-5 loss) (where a wraithknight stomp killed JUST shadowsun and the buffsuit out of the whole bomb on turn 1 ) Then I went on to win 2. On day 2 since I was playing a Shadowsight Bomb which relies on 2+ cover to stay alive, I faced a space marine mech list that had a gak ton of whirlwinds and vindicators and thunderfires, and then went on to play castle Tau which was annoying so basically day 2 was against my 2 hardest counters in Ignores Cover armies. If any of you have followed my playing I have played the FBomb for a long time, and this was actually my last tournament playing the Farsight Bomb... been fun though.

Thank you to Reece and Frankie along to the staff and voulenteers to make the even run smoothly. Although I finished with a lackluster 2/3 score, I did pick up the nickname pajamapants junior because of my sweet pants on the first day, thanks Jim

I also might be making a large change in who i play (represent) for coming up too.... but thats all for now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LVO Thread link?

MVBrandt wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
All those free points! Summoning, battle company, war convo... Free point lists held half the top 8 going into round 5. Seems like the name of the game nowadays.

"Points values. Who needs them?" - GW long term strategy director. Actual quote.

Lol... does seem to be their actual strategy.

 winterman wrote:

Congratulations to both! Are either of their lists available yet?

TastyTaste did a write-up before the event and has a couple of the lists pre-event. Not sure if they changed but they are there in the link below. Includes Sisks, Pajamapants, InControl and a couple of other notables.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/07/09/tits-tournaments-bay-area-open-2015-coverage-begins/

Are those lists correct?

Rynner wrote:

 winterman wrote:

Congratulations to both! Are either of their lists available yet?

TastyTaste did a write-up before the event and has a couple of the lists pre-event. Not sure if they changed but they are there in the link below. Includes Sisks, Pajamapants, InControl and a couple of other notables.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/07/09/tits-tournaments-bay-area-open-2015-coverage-begins/

Are those lists correct?

I can attest to Alex Gonzalez's list being correct. I played him in the final round, during which he annihilated my army!

Ok guys got my final BAO post. Added tons of pictures and most importantly the top four table lists.

Enjoy!

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/07/13/tits-tournaments-bay-area-open-2015-pics-lists-results/

Congatz to Pajama Pants for winning another GT! Nicely done.

Mike Fox, congratz on best painted!

Israel Sanchez, congratz on Ren. Man!

Thank you so much to everyone that came, that was the best BAO yet, ran so smoothly. Thanks to the volunteers, and to everyone else that made it happen. We really appreciate the support.

We got back at 1am, last night, still sleepy and getting caught up. With have all the results, shortly.

After going 3-1, and both my games winning on near pure luck, its time to up my game.
1: IG may not be competitve by themselves, but they can be with proper allies
2: Skyhammer is very much a underpower formation. On paper its great. But to many rules ignore the pinning, requires lotsa combos between devs and assaults. and the assault squads need an anti-scatter, which is sadly very low.
3: Jello shots before a game is a good idea.

Woot Geoff, driving the Admech to 2nd.

Does someone know how the lists looked that included renegades? I read there was one Tau/Renegades and one Daemonkin/Renegades list. I would be very thankful.

mahddoc wrote:
Does someone know how the lists looked that included renegades? I read there was one Tau/Renegades and one Daemonkin/Renegades list. I would be very thankful.

I can ask Carlos about his Tau/Renegades list next time I see him.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/07/14/results-and-pictures-from-the-bao/

Event results and some awesome pictures!

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

mahddoc wrote:
Does someone know how the lists looked that included renegades? I read there was one Tau/Renegades and one Daemonkin/Renegades list. I would be very thankful.

I can ask Carlos about his Tau/Renegades list next time I see him.

I can give you the Ball Park, since we shared a ride to San Jose.

A squadron of 2 or 3 "Colossus" , S8, AP 3, pie-plate Ignores Cover, barrage, tanks (like a Basilisk tank)
Kharne the Betrayer
Lotsa zombies (2 big blobs)
Tau FireBase Support Cadre

And other stuff I cannae recall.

It seems every event has my primary faction wrong. The Bugeater had eldar but i was harlequins and at the bao i was eldar but im listed as tau. Lol

 Tomb King wrote:
It seems every event has my primary faction wrong. The Bugeater had eldar but i was harlequins and at the bao i was eldar but im listed as tau. Lol

If you would just stick to Necrons you would not have that problem.

I wonder how many firebase cadres there were.

Apparently not enough.

I saw on Frontline's web page that a player named Trevor Sandoval got 20th with just GK. Does anyone have an idea what his list was? 20th is pretty impressive given how limited the GK 'dex is.

Do you guys still think the Eldar nerfs are appropriate considering it limits their options and causes lack of variety? The proof is in the pudding: Newdar don't win GTs, so why are they singled out as the army that's being houseruled against?

Did you experiment running these GTs without the Eldar nerfs? Were Eldar unbeatable then? I highly doubt it.

I'm fine if you think it's still appropriate, but I recommend that you keep monitoring the results in the future.

My gripe with nerfs like this is that they're so arbitrary -- Even random. There's a lot to fix in the game, yet some things are singled out and others left as is.

 Therion wrote:
Do you guys still think the Eldar nerfs are appropriate considering it limits their options and causes lack of variety? The proof is in the pudding: Newdar don't win GTs, so why are they singled out as the army that's being houseruled against?

Did you experiment running these GTs without the Eldar nerfs? Were Eldar unbeatable then? I highly doubt it.

I'm fine if you think it's still appropriate, but I recommend that you keep monitoring the results in the future.

My gripe with nerfs like this is that they're so arbitrary -- Even random. There's a lot to fix in the game, yet some things are singled out and others left as is.

FLG and Co have come to an important realizations.
That ruling for the Top tables dont matter. Weird and strange lists are gonna make it there. They rule for the mid tables.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Do you guys still think the Eldar nerfs are appropriate considering it limits their options and causes lack of variety? The proof is in the pudding: Newdar don't win GTs, so why are they singled out as the army that's being houseruled against?

Did you experiment running these GTs without the Eldar nerfs? Were Eldar unbeatable then? I highly doubt it.

I'm fine if you think it's still appropriate, but I recommend that you keep monitoring the results in the future.

My gripe with nerfs like this is that they're so arbitrary -- Even random. There's a lot to fix in the game, yet some things are singled out and others left as is.

FLG and Co have come to an important realizations.
That ruling for the Top tables dont matter. Weird and strange lists are gonna make it there. They rule for the mid tables.

There is also no elder specific nerf.
The only nerf to elder in itc is a nerf to all range str d and dscythe. Which appear on many forge world units not specific to elder.
However the only change I'd like to see them roll back is the fact str d doesn't count as str 10 for insta death purposes which seems odd and unnneeded.
The reduction of wounds or really hull points (since most infantry models dies to 2 wounds anyway) seems appropriate because unchanged str d just obliterates vehicles.

As mentioned above, the only "nerfs" as I recall were to ranged D weapons and that only really affected the wraith units' shooting. Otherwise Eldar were unaffected by any other ruling or "nerf" in the ITCformat. I think wraith units are still strong enough with the nerf, without it they would be "point click and dead." I do think they should revisit the "not counting as S10 for ID" as it does take a lot of oomph out of them, also as previously mentioned. Kind of sad that they then become less scary to things with T5 or less as you go from 100% chance of killing the model to only 50% chance of doing 2 wounds. :(

Regardless, if I could have made it, I would have loved to see how a wraith-centric list would have taken me, which is likely what I would have brought.

You probably didn't see as much Eldar as you were expecting because of the new SM release.

We saw lots of Eldar. But not as primary. Thus, why you don't see it much in the results.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

mahddoc wrote:
Does someone know how the lists looked that included renegades? I read there was one Tau/Renegades and one Daemonkin/Renegades list. I would be very thankful.

I can ask Carlos about his Tau/Renegades list next time I see him.

I can give you the Ball Park, since we shared a ride to San Jose.

A squadron of 2 or 3 "Colossus" , S8, AP 3, pie-plate Ignores Cover, barrage, tanks (like a Basilisk tank)
Kharne the Betrayer
Lotsa zombies (2 big blobs)
Tau FireBase Support Cadre

And other stuff I cannae recall.

Thanks alot that gives me a good idea about the list. Now the list i am missing is i think the list of Douglas “Jouglas” Johnson. Somebody got a rough idea what he did use?

I'd like to know about any daemonkin lists of note, if anyone can help? Not sure what the highest placing for daemonkin was, but anything would be of interest!

mahddoc wrote:
Thanks alot that gives me a good idea about the list. Now the list i am missing is i think the list of Douglas “Jouglas” Johnson. Somebody got a rough idea what he did use?

Also known as "Warboss Dugg", but "Jouglas" has been used to bust his chops in a few GT result listings.

I cruised by his table and talked briefly. It looked like he brought his "Hobby Breaker", or a variant of it that he'd brought to GTs before. His Deployment Zone for game 5 (Dawn of War deployment) was nearly full of models.

Sorry that I'm even less helpful here, but you could try a 'Net Search of adding the phrase "Hobby Breaker" (my quick search turned up a few things, including a batrep video where he looks waaay younger than now). But no list.

It's Thudd guns and other tremendous volume fire for IG that you get with FW models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I'd like to know about any daemonkin lists of note, if anyone can help? Not sure what the highest placing for daemonkin was, but anything would be of interest!

Pajama Pants' list is on a link in Tasty Taste's BloodofKittens blog, briefly, Fate, Slaany DP, 2 Pinky units, Be'lakor, etc.

mahddoc wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

mahddoc wrote:
Does someone know how the lists looked that included renegades? I read there was one Tau/Renegades and one Daemonkin/Renegades list. I would be very thankful.

I can ask Carlos about his Tau/Renegades list next time I see him.

I can give you the Ball Park, since we shared a ride to San Jose.

A squadron of 2 or 3 "Colossus" , S8, AP 3, pie-plate Ignores Cover, barrage, tanks (like a Basilisk tank)
Kharne the Betrayer
Lotsa zombies (2 big blobs)
Tau FireBase Support Cadre

And other stuff I cannae recall.

Thanks alot that gives me a good idea about the list. Now the list i am missing is i think the list of Douglas “Jouglas” Johnson. Somebody got a rough idea what he did use?

It also has a Medusa in there.
I played that list. If I didnt get seized on, I would have had a Fighting chance

That must have been painful !

Travis from TFG Radio, and best Necron going 4-1 by the way, put together a photo montage with sound and everything from our weekend at the BAO. Check it out, it's pretty good.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2015/07/bay-area-open-2015-photo-montage.html

There are no Eldar nerfs in the ITC, as others noted, only the nerfs to D weapons which was a reaction to Lords of War, not Eldar. We actually made D weapons better in order to benefit Eldar. It is a common misconception that we nerfed Eldar, we did not.

And yeah, Warboss Dugg's list was nasty! Cool trick: he sticks a herald in there so that the arty become Fearless and generate blood tithe. Ouch!

Any chance of having army lists available for more than the top 10? Im curious how the necron players were trying to cope with the competition; as well as the other tyranids.

 Reecius wrote:
There are no Eldar nerfs in the ITC, as others noted, only the nerfs to D weapons which was a reaction to Lords of War, not Eldar. We actually made D weapons better in order to benefit Eldar. It is a common misconception that we nerfed Eldar, we did not.

And yeah, Warboss Dugg's list was nasty! Cool trick: he sticks a herald in there so that the arty become Fearless and generate blood tithe. Ouch!

warp spiders single jumping is a nerf, and wraithguard are not lords of war and are clearly also nerfed. Not hating cause i love how you guys are trying to balance the game, but people are not blind. Was not at the tourney ofcourse but was there alot fo wraithknights in the field? seems to me that the rules for killing gargantunam creatures and getting extra VP couple with a clear nerfing of the rulebook D weapon rules (regardless if you want to admit it or not) and couple with the ease of grav weapons in the field , im not sure why anybody would bring them.

You do realize range d was already illegal long before eldar codex was released. The itc changed the ruling so eldar can be a special snowflake and bring thier toys. That str d change was made for all factions not just eldar, which suddenly made many Forgeworld units for other factions legal in the itc as well.

The warp spider ruling wasn't a nerf but thier interpretation of the rules. There are several threads on this board about if multiple warp jumps are legal. Just because you decide your interpretation is correct doesn't make it a nerf or the intent of the games designers. But if you could get a gw dev to comment on your interpretation as correct then I am sure the itc will change the rule. I also have no intention on carrying on this argument here but feel free to do a search on this site and continue to argue your interpretation of the rule with the multiple threads on the subject. My point is thier ruling is an interpretation of the rule but it's not the only interpretation of this unclear rule and thus it's not a nerf anymore then your interpretation is considered a buff to eldar.

@Stopcallingmechief

That is not an ITC specific rules interpretation, it is pretty much tournament wide. I don't know of any events that allow unlimited flicker jumps, but hey. And as Gungo stated, that is less a nerf and more of just how we all read the rule. But, thank you for the support and honest critiques, we appreciate it.

Yes, there were a lot of Wraithknights, all of the top placing Eldar players had one. They're incredibly powerful, easily the most points efficient LoW in the game.

 Reecius wrote:
@Stopcallingmechief

That is not an ITC specific rules interpretation, it is pretty much tournament wide. I don't know of any events that allow unlimited flicker jumps, but hey. And as Gungo stated, that is less a nerf and more of just how we all read the rule. But, thank you for the support and honest critiques, we appreciate it.

Yes, there were a lot of Wraithknights, all of the top placing Eldar players had one. They're incredibly powerful, easily the most points efficient LoW in the game.

.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
There are no Eldar nerfs in the ITC, as others noted, only the nerfs to D weapons which was a reaction to Lords of War, not Eldar. We actually made D weapons better in order to benefit Eldar. It is a common misconception that we nerfed Eldar, we did not.

And yeah, Warboss Dugg's list was nasty! Cool trick: he sticks a herald in there so that the arty become Fearless and generate blood tithe. Ouch!

warp spiders single jumping is a nerf, and wraithguard are not lords of war and are clearly also nerfed. Not hating cause i love how you guys are trying to balance the game, but people are not blind. Was not at the tourney ofcourse but was there alot fo wraithknights in the field? seems to me that the rules for killing gargantunam creatures and getting extra VP couple with a clear nerfing of the rulebook D weapon rules (regardless if you want to admit it or not) and couple with the ease of grav weapons in the field , im not sure why anybody would bring them.

Hey Chief,

Hahaha....oh, wait....better stop calling you that.

The nerf to D wasn't targeted specifically at Eldar. It just felt that way because Eldar is the only army that can spam the D and in almost every FOC slot. No other army is able to do that. However, you can make a totally viable army without the D.

I'm just glad the attendees had the sense (but just barely) not to vote for the scatter laser nerf (1 scatter laser per 3 bikes was voted down, thank goodness). That would have been a more serious nerf to Scatdar.

 jy2 wrote:
I'm just glad the attendees had the sense (but just barely) not to vote for the scatter laser nerf (1 scatter laser per 3 bikes was voted down, thank goodness). That would have been a more serious nerf to Scatdar.

Someone brought this up to me and I think it's a good point - asking competitors at a tourney whether or not you should nerf their opponents is often going to result in a "yes" vote.

So while it didn't happen in that specific case, a lot of questions will obviously result in "yes" votes simply because it will hurt the competition and not someone's own army / list / etc.

Have you guys considered alternative ways to come to those decisions? I don't really have one, other than perhaps making a decision and putting a packet out early and having a "comment period" on it (the government does this a lot!), but it seems like the current method could result in somewhat skewed results, at least in certain cases where nerfs will affect certain armies (perhaps disliked ones) more than others.

While I agree you will have a lot of initial overreaction and some people just willing to jump on any reason to nerf a more powerful army they don't play. I think the current system works because the only options that should come to a vote have already been vetted through the committee as issues that may need addressing. It's more republic then democracy but it works. The other issue is as a whole I think most people do not vote just to screw over thier opponent but vote what they think is correct. I thought scatbikes were op and yet I still voted to keep them as they are.

I think the itc generally does a good job Limiting votes to address rule debates and a very few major balance issues. If they continue to do that then the vote system will have several layers protecting itself from over regulation. I think at some point the itc will vote to allow str d to count as str10 for insta death purposes and I have a feeling that will be allowed if brought to a vote.

Yeah, I think the vote her actually proves the opposite, that folks don't vote to screw their buddy, that they really do vote with their conscious.

@stopcallingmechief

I wasn't trying to talk down to you or anything, I hope it didn't come across that way.

Was the new Dark Angel book legal for this tourney and did any show up?

 Reecius wrote:
There are no Eldar nerfs in the ITC, as others noted, only the nerfs to D weapons which was a reaction to Lords of War, not Eldar. We actually made D weapons better in order to benefit Eldar. It is a common misconception that we nerfed Eldar, we did not.

I realize this and I as well appreciate your hard work.

I think though with the addition of Battle Company and the rest of the beefy codexes that it's soon going to be time to scrap the nerf to ranged D or at least dial it forward some to a lesser nerf. The problematic Necron LoW are now balanced and the rest aren't anything special, not compared to other things in the meta. The game is so based around just drop podding melta/etc death that LoW cause their users to lose from the error of putting too many eggs in one basket. On top of that the ITC still gives maelstrom points for damaging LoW....

At this point I don't think the 2-5 result should be nerfed at all, keep it 1-3 HPs/Ws as per the BRB. The 6 result should be maybe D3+1 wounds/HP, still no ID. As an Dark Eldar player who dabbles in Eldar, I can say that it's pretty ridiculous that my Wraithknight isn't really that much better than a single scatbike at killing a Razorback. Even if I roll a '6' with the heavy D cannon that still doesn't kill a Razorback unless I roll another 6.

WKs are great all around units that do fine, however it's important to look at D weapons from a general perspective since there wasn't a nerf just for Eldar. Should D weapons really have this much trouble getting through a single Rhino or Razorback in a meta where lists of ten free tanks are ultra common? No, I think they should have a very good chance of popping them and they just don't.

D weapons are the best weapons at destroying vehicles shot for shot.
You do realize most vehicles non super heavy in game have 3 hull points?
Just compare wraith guard w dscythe vs firedragons. Fire dragons are easily one of the best anti tank unit in game right now and a unit of d scythe wraithguard are simply better at removing vehicles from game.

No other weapon can just remove a non open top vehicle in game without some penetration rolls followed up with some lucky low ap bonuses on the damage chart. Str d can simply roll a 2-5 and strip d3 hull and remove most vehicle with ease and still roll for pen results. The only change str d needs is to count as str 10 for insta death

Honestly I'm probably not explaining this as well as others because there are loads of graphs and charts people have put out explaining how much better str d even post itc nerf. I got to find a link for you but I remember an article from someone who did a much more eloquent job of showing how good str d was with graphs and stats and even included the itc str d.

Am I the only one who's been surprised with Necron's performance in the last few major GT's?

The new codex has been getting abysmal results at the top tables, despite the notoriety of the Decurion and the buffed wraiths. I wonder what's up.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Am I the only one who's been surprised with Necron's performance in the last few major GT's?

The new codex has been getting abysmal results at the top tables, despite the notoriety of the Decurion and the buffed wraiths. I wonder what's up.

Travis, Disdainful on Dakka, from TFG Radio went 4-1 with his Necrons at BAO and if his deathstar hadn't scattered and died on a veil round 3 probably would have gone 5-0. I think the lack of Necrons performing well is due to the lack of Necron players. Of the Necrons players at the BAO I would say a majority of them were playing very underwhelming lists that had some major issues. Only Alex Gonzalez and Travis Simpson were running tooled up viable, top tier Necron lists. Of those both of them went 4-1. I played Alex Gonzalez round 5 when we were both 3-1 he trounced me hard with that list.

For me the only thing I didn't like was the Terrain with the bottom levels that were completely filled in, a small gripe honestly, and the fact I played 3 full Battle Company lists in a row

Travis, Disdainful on Dakka, from TFG Radio went 4-1 with his Necrons at BAO and if his deathstar hadn't scattered and died on a veil round 3 probably would have gone 5-0. I think the lack of Necrons performing well is due to the lack of Necron players. Of the Necrons players at the BAO I would say a majority of them were playing very underwhelming lists that had some major issues. Only Alex Gonzalez and Travis Simpson were running tooled up viable, top tier Necron lists. Of those both of them went 4-1. I played Alex Gonzalez round 5 when we were both 3-1 he trounced me hard with that list.

For me the only thing I didn't like was the Terrain with the bottom levels that were completely filled in, a small gripe honestly, and the fact I played 3 full Battle Company lists in a row

Anyone know what those necron lists were?

BlaxicanX wrote:Am I the only one who's been surprised with Necron's performance in the last few major GT's?

The new codex has been getting abysmal results at the top tables, despite the notoriety of the Decurion and the buffed wraiths. I wonder what's up.

As stated below there were 2 good necron players that I personally faced.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Am I the only one who's been surprised with Necron's performance in the last few major GT's?

The new codex has been getting abysmal results at the top tables, despite the notoriety of the Decurion and the buffed wraiths. I wonder what's up.

Travis, Disdainful on Dakka, from TFG Radio went 4-1 with his Necrons at BAO and if his deathstar hadn't scattered and died on a veil round 3 probably would have gone 5-0. I think the lack of Necrons performing well is due to the lack of Necron players. Of the Necrons players at the BAO I would say a majority of them were playing very underwhelming lists that had some major issues. Only Alex Gonzalez and Travis Simpson were running tooled up viable, top tier Necron lists. Of those both of them went 4-1. I played Alex Gonzalez round 5 when we were both 3-1 he trounced me hard with that list.

For me the only thing I didn't like was the Terrain with the bottom levels that were completely filled in, a small gripe honestly, and the fact I played 3 full Battle Company lists in a row

I actually played both of the necron players with the lychstar. Both of them scattered on deepstrike and both of them mishaped on turn 1. One of them got me to place it and the other had to walk on from the board edge. I would really have like to see how it would of went had they not mishaped. The third round game I believe my opponent scattered the only direction he didnt want to and he went a full 11 inchs. Was painful to watch in both games.

omerakk wrote:

Travis, Disdainful on Dakka, from TFG Radio went 4-1 with his Necrons at BAO and if his deathstar hadn't scattered and died on a veil round 3 probably would have gone 5-0. I think the lack of Necrons performing well is due to the lack of Necron players. Of the Necrons players at the BAO I would say a majority of them were playing very underwhelming lists that had some major issues. Only Alex Gonzalez and Travis Simpson were running tooled up viable, top tier Necron lists. Of those both of them went 4-1. I played Alex Gonzalez round 5 when we were both 3-1 he trounced me hard with that list.

For me the only thing I didn't like was the Terrain with the bottom levels that were completely filled in, a small gripe honestly, and the fact I played 3 full Battle Company lists in a row

Anyone know what those necron lists were?

I have copies of both list and they will be in my reports which i start late this weekend or early next week.


@ Reece is there any way I could get pictures of my score sheets from the event or have they been discarded? I would like to add maelstrom points by turn for each round.

Necrons have been doing pretty well actually. I think with the Battle company coming to prevalence and once Dark Angels get more common you will see them having a tougher time but still being one of the best codexes you can field.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Am I the only one who's been surprised with Necron's performance in the last few major GT's?

The new codex has been getting abysmal results at the top tables, despite the notoriety of the Decurion and the buffed wraiths. I wonder what's up.

Travis, Disdainful on Dakka, from TFG Radio went 4-1 with his Necrons at BAO and if his deathstar hadn't scattered and died on a veil round 3 probably would have gone 5-0. I think the lack of Necrons performing well is due to the lack of Necron players. Of the Necrons players at the BAO I would say a majority of them were playing very underwhelming lists that had some major issues. Only Alex Gonzalez and Travis Simpson were running tooled up viable, top tier Necron lists. Of those both of them went 4-1. I played Alex Gonzalez round 5 when we were both 3-1 he trounced me hard with that list.

For me the only thing I didn't like was the Terrain with the bottom levels that were completely filled in, a small gripe honestly, and the fact I played 3 full Battle Company lists in a row

Don't ya'll think bringing canoptek harvest is better than overloading on destroyers like in Alex Gonzalez's list?

Travis, Disdainful on Dakka, from TFG Radio went 4-1 with his Necrons

omerakk wrote:
Anyone know what those necron lists were?

This list was the same that Space Curves, took and did well with, to Wargames con. I got whupped by Travis the week before. From memory:

Nemesor Z
Destroyer Lord with toys, Res Orb, etc.
... these two paired with a 10 dude Lyche unit (including Veil)

3 units of 3 Heavy Destroyers
Spider
a starting scarab unit
5 or 6 Wraiths
1 jetbike unit, just 3 of them
4 or so units of units of warriors and immortals, maybe two fives and two tens. Memory fails from here

 Tomb King wrote:


I have copies of both list and they will be in my reports which i start late this weekend or early next week.

Tomb King, do you have a personal blog or will this be up in the usual places? (FLG, Bols, etc)

@Tomb King

No, we throw them away after the event. No reason to keep a stack of 1,340 score sheets, lol

@Mercury14

Battle Company is not as scary as people think it is. It's very good at winning missions, sure, but Eldar really don't need any help popping transports, you have Scat Packs, the most points efficient unit in the game. And which Necron LoW are you referring to? The entire debate about ranged D came about really in regards to the Lynx. And yes, the ITC does attribute bonus points for taking out LoW, but that has not held them back. All Knight armies did very well.

No offense at all, please don't take this that way, but if you are complaining about a WK not being good enough it is hard for me to take that seriously. Wraithknights are unbelievably good for their points, like, absurdly under-costed for what you get. EASILY, the most points efficient LoW in the game, ITC nerf to ranged D or not. Hinging your argument on the efficacy of a WK being able to destroy a Rhino is really, really not taking into account the total impact they have on the game. As an Eldar player you have so many tools in your toolbox to pop transports, it's silly. Most armies wish they had access to what you have. Again, not trying to be mean, just trying to give some perspective to this.

@Reece... I just didnt know if you recorded total points only or if you all kept the data by turn.

Casey's memory is fuzzy (but there's a con full of beers between that game and now! )

It is SpaceCurves' list. In short: Decurion; Rec Legion (replace Overlord with Zandrekh, add 8 Lychguard with Warscythes, Gauss Immortals, Nebuloscopes on the Tomb Blades); Canoptek Harvest (Max Wraiths with Coils); Destroyer Cult (minimum everything, no heavy destroyers, add Res Orb and Veil to the Lord); Allied Detachment with Orikan and 5 Tesla Immortals.

Basically it's like the speech Radjack gave to the roughnecks in Starship Troopers: Everyone re-rolls, no one dies. The lychstar has all the characters and therefore re-rolls rolls of 1 for everything. Orikan gives re-rolls of 1 to all saves, Zandrekh (as the boss of the Rec Legion) gives re-rolls of 1 to Reanimation protocols, the Destroyer Lord gives Preferred Enemy (all) so re-roll ones to hit and wound. It doesn't even care about instant death attacks, since all Reanimation Protocols bonuses apply (5+ to start, Instant Death -1 to 6+, then Decurion +1 back to 5+, and Orikan +1 back to 4+). Plus warscythes mean they house in CC and they're so resilient between all the re-rolls and the ability of Zandrekh to pick stealth ruins on t2 that you don't need to pay points for sword and board. They wreck face better *and* they're cheaper for a negligible reduction in staying power. You've got the reanimating Wraiths as your backup deathstar, basic troops that are super hard to shift and mobile firepower with the destroyers and it's just a lot to deal with.

And while I appreciate John's vote of confidence, my game with TombKing in r3 was brutal and even if I had hit the veil and not mishapped it was still a wide open game. I had played against similar lists in whole and in part in preparation for the event and knew that even all the firepower he had concentrated in his backfield bunker was unlikely to do much damage to the lychstar in the absence of very anomalous dice (having watched basically the same list shoot everything in the army at the unit for two turns straight for a net gain of 1 wound on Zandrekh and two Lychguard just the week prior), but there was a big board to fight for and he had the relic with a far more mobile army than mine. The one big hiccup to the list is that once I pop the veil, I'm basically a pedestrian for the rest of the game so quick lists can stay away. I was holding my own on Maelstrom until we rolled the turn 4 objectives and it was foregone conclusion machine after that. Great game regardless, it was a tough, tense match that I was happy to have played.

I understand that Alex took a list that subbed out the Canoptek Harvest for heavy destroyers and additional tomb blades but I don't know what else or how the points worked out.

All that aside, Mucho Macho Thanks to Reece, Frankie, and everyone who came out because it was a BLAST. I got five awesome games against great opponents that I would be stoked to play again any time, we got to smoke cigars and drink scotch, Casey yelled and bawled... kinda the perfect weekend.

 Reecius wrote:

@Mercury14

Battle Company is not as scary as people think it is. It's very good at winning missions, sure, but Eldar really don't need any help popping transports, you have Scat Packs, the most points efficient unit in the game. And which Necron LoW are you referring to? The entire debate about ranged D came about really in regards to the Lynx. And yes, the ITC does attribute bonus points for taking out LoW, but that has not held them back. All Knight armies did very well.

No offense at all, please don't take this that way, but if you are complaining about a WK not being good enough it is hard for me to take that seriously. Wraithknights are unbelievably good for their points, like, absurdly under-costed for what you get. EASILY, the most points efficient LoW in the game, ITC nerf to ranged D or not. Hinging your argument on the efficacy of a WK being able to destroy a Rhino is really, really not taking into account the total impact they have on the game. As an Eldar player you have so many tools in your toolbox to pop transports, it's silly. Most armies wish they had access to what you have. Again, not trying to be mean, just trying to give some perspective to this.

To clarify, I'm not saying that the WK or Eldar are underpowered. It's certainly very good. My comment is based on the performance of D weapons in general though. IMO they're over-nerfed in the current ITC modification and with Battle Company ten free tanks it's never been more apparent. The Lynx even stands a fairly good chance of failing to pop a single Razorback which is really sad.

Another thought... When the Eldar codex came out your show (and others) stated the belief that ranged D would be a nice foil to death stars in the meta. Have you found this to be true? I haven't played an ITC event since just before the latest Eldar codex dropped so I'm speaking mostly from FLGS tournament experience (ITC rules) and experience on various forums, but I don't think it has really at all. I think ranged D is too gimped given the current meta. Just my two pesos, thanks for listening!

Range d can use the str 10 rule back but I'm confused which deathstar is surviving range d hits? They still ignore fnp and reanimation protocol. They still do multiple wounds on single targets and they still ignore invuls on a 6. I fail to see how the rulebook range d is much more effective vs infantry. As most infantry have 1 wound or at best 2 wounds. Only a handful of non monsterous creature and special units have 3 or more wounds.

The nerf to range str d really only limits range str d from annihilating vehicles with any single hit infantry which most death stars are see very little change other then the str10 change which I agree needs to be reverted.

Single shot range d is still the best counter for high priority hard to kill single targets in game. It obviously doesnt do well. VS swarms But that's where eldar dscythe with templates do much better.

gungo wrote:
Range d can use the str 10 rule back but I'm confused which deathstar is surviving range d hits? They still ignore fnp and reanimation protocol. They still do multiple wounds on single targets and they still ignore invuls on a 6. I fail to see how the rulebook range d is much more effective vs infantry. As most infantry have 1 wound or at best 2 wounds. Only a handful of non monsterous creature and special units have 3 or more wounds.

The nerf to range str d really only limits range str d from annihilating vehicles with any single hit infantry which most death stars are see very little change other then the str10 change which I agree needs to be reverted.

Single shot range d is still the best counter for high priority hard to kill single targets in game. It obviously doesnt do well. VS swarms But that's where eldar dscythe with templates do much better.

Daemon prince doesnt have eternal warrior... it would be better to roll a 2-5 result as you could instant kill the DP... rolling a 6 would only net you 2 wounds.

 Reecius wrote:
@Stopcallingmechief

That is not an ITC specific rules interpretation, it is pretty much tournament wide. I don't know of any events that allow unlimited flicker jumps, but hey. And as Gungo stated, that is less a nerf and more of just how we all read the rule. But, thank you for the support and honest critiques, we appreciate it.

Yes, there were a lot of Wraithknights, all of the top placing Eldar players had one. They're incredibly powerful, easily the most points efficient LoW in the game.

War Spider single jump is definitely a rule change/strange interpretation/nerf and played as unlimited jumps in all events I've seen or played at out here, or in Europe.

There are several threads debating the issue in the rules forum so it's hardly a strange interpretation but the argument I've seen rests on the fact flickerjump is a warpjump and warpjump is pretty clear that it is only once a player turn.

The counter argument is that flickerjump doesn't state once a turn but then you have one unclear rule and one clear rule. I'm on the east coast and every event I've played at it is once a turn. Of course most of those events use the nova rules which also limit flickerjump to once a turn.

gungo wrote:
There are several threads debating the issue in the rules forum so it's hardly a strange interpretation but the argument I've seen rests on the fact flickerjump is a warpjump and warpjump is pretty clear that it is only once a player turn.

The counter argument is that flickerjump doesn't state once a turn but then you have one unclear rule and one clear rule. I'm on the east coast and every event I've played at it is once a turn. Of course most of those events use the nova rules which also limit flickerjump to once a turn.

Hi, I'm Chip. I wrote the NOVA FAQ. We most certainly do not limit flicker jumps to a single jump per turn.

Different strokes for different folks.

Each tournament has its own perspective on how the game is played. Clearly, the ITC rules are somewhat more conservative than the Nova rules in some areas (certain rules intepretations) while more progressive in other areas (the allowance of unlimited Forgeworld, Lord of Wars SH/GC's allowed).

My viewpoint is that the ITC rulings tend to be more conservative in general than Nova's or Europe rulings.

 disdainful wrote:
Casey's memory is fuzzy (but there's a con full of beers between that game and now! )
<snip!>
and drink scotch, Casey yelled and bawled... kinda the perfect weekend.

Ah, so much love.

Travis begins and ends a post with me.

In between, at the BAO, I get swept off my feet in a hug. Thanks, Liz!

Reece bought me a drink. Thanks, again, man.

And, I seem to have provided Travis with the Cherry on his BAO GT sundae.

You're welcome, buddy!
*sniff*

.... so much love.
*sob* *bawl*
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Seriously, the BAO continues (my 3rd year in a row) to be a blast and an absolute "gonna be there next year and the year after that, and the year ... "
a. great, friendly staff, Keno, Frankie, Taylor and more!
b. terrain & tables
c. cool caliber of players you meet & play
d. the venue & location rocks

 jy2 wrote:
Different strokes for different folks.

Each tournament has its own perspective on how the game is played. Clearly, the ITC rules are somewhat more conservative than the Nova rules in some areas (certain rules intepretations) while more progressive in other areas (the allowance of unlimited Forgeworld, Lord of Wars SH/GC's allowed).

My viewpoint is that the ITC rulings tend to be more conservative in general than Nova's or Europe rulings.

Definitely Jim. Just don't know why this guy thinks the NOVA format is x when that's not the case.

chipstar1 wrote:

gungo wrote:
There are several threads debating the issue in the rules forum so it's hardly a strange interpretation but the argument I've seen rests on the fact flickerjump is a warpjump and warpjump is pretty clear that it is only once a player turn.

The counter argument is that flickerjump doesn't state once a turn but then you have one unclear rule and one clear rule. I'm on the east coast and every event I've played at it is once a turn. Of course most of those events use the nova rules which also limit flickerjump to once a turn.

Hi, I'm Chip. I wrote the NOVA FAQ. We most certainly do not limit flicker jumps to a single jump per turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chipstar1 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Different strokes for different folks.

Each tournament has its own perspective on how the game is played. Clearly, the ITC rules are somewhat more conservative than the Nova rules in some areas (certain rules intepretations) while more progressive in other areas (the allowance of unlimited Forgeworld, Lord of Wars SH/GC's allowed).

My viewpoint is that the ITC rulings tend to be more conservative in general than Nova's or Europe rulings.

Definitely Jim. Just don't know why this guy thinks the NOVA format is x when that's not the case.

My bad I played some nova practice games where it was ruled that way maybe they were just using itc rules. I wasn't paying particular attention to it since I can't make it there this year.

gungo wrote:
Range d can use the str 10 rule back but I'm confused which deathstar is surviving range d hits? They still ignore fnp and reanimation protocol. They still do multiple wounds on single targets and they still ignore invuls on a 6. I fail to see how the rulebook range d is much more effective vs infantry. As most infantry have 1 wound or at best 2 wounds. Only a handful of non monsterous creature and special units have 3 or more wounds.

The nerf to range str d really only limits range str d from annihilating vehicles with any single hit infantry which most death stars are see very little change other then the str10 change which I agree needs to be reverted.

Single shot range d is still the best counter for high priority hard to kill single targets in game. It obviously doesnt do well. VS swarms But that's where eldar dscythe with templates do much better.

Death stars with invuln and cover saves will reliably survive Str D. The shooter isn't going to hit AND roll 6's very often, and even if they do they're unlikely to kill many models. And in the ITC nerf there's a 50% chance that the D-wound will still just do one wound/HP of damage. That's really weak. The 1-3 wounds needs to come back on a 2-5 and the roll of a 6 needs to get ID back and be three auto-wounds, not two.

Rolling a 6 on the D chart should mean that a 35 point Rhino or Drop pod is wrecked. Having the 6 be just two HPs is just plain wrong, especially in the new meta where lists commonly have ten free tanks.

I was under the impression that the 6 on the D table was nerfed because it is unfair to have guys just pick up models because of a lucky roll? On the other hand I just played in a tourney yesterday where the D Thirster was rampaging around with invisibility and the Grimoire on it. How is that supposed to be stopped without the str D 6 removing the model? It decimated the Necron player and then was killed in the next game by a Knight stomp rolling the 6. There is really no other way for most armies to stop something like that on the tabletop.

gungo wrote:
There are several threads debating the issue in the rules forum so it's hardly a strange interpretation but the argument I've seen rests on the fact flickerjump is a warpjump and warpjump is pretty clear that it is only once a player turn.

The counter argument is that flickerjump doesn't state once a turn but then you have one unclear rule and one clear rule. I'm on the east coast and every event I've played at it is once a turn. Of course most of those events use the nova rules which also limit flickerjump to once a turn.

NOVA doesn't limit flickerjump - Heck I think the poster above you, Chipstar, is on their FAQ team.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I was under the impression that the 6 on the D table was nerfed because it is unfair to have guys just pick up models because of a lucky roll? On the other hand I just played in a tourney yesterday where the D Thirster was rampaging around with invisibility and the Grimoire on it. How is that supposed to be stopped without the str D 6 removing the model? It decimated the Necron player and then was killed in the next game by a Knight stomp rolling the 6. There is really no other way for most armies to stop something like that on the tabletop.

"It's unfair" isn't really a good reason to arbitrarily nerf ranged D. Screamerstar, superfriends, Skyhammer, Battle Company, Decurion, and a whole bunch of other stuff isn't "fair". When Tau comes out in a few months I'm 99.9% certain that there's going to be a bunch of "unfair" stuff in there too.

The Meta is wild right now and I really think the ITC should unleash the D to counter some of this stuff.

This is meant to be totally nice, no malice:

gungo, mercury14, how about starting a tourney thread on this? Something like, "Looking at nerfing D-wep for the tourney scene" ? "Re-Examining GT adjustments."

Or some such?

I did some of the MathHammer on D-weps here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647186.page

And then this thread can stay on BAO specific things, like the event, how it went, etc. Can Round 1 Challenges be worked into the pairing software for LVO and next year? Where was the masseuse from last year?

Oh yeah, I remember her. Nothing like a nice rubdown after 5-6 games of intense gaming. I missed her this year.

Fortunately for her, I don't really sweat while playing.

 Brothererekose wrote:
This is meant to be totally nice, no malice:

gungo, mercury14, how about starting a tourney thread on this? Something like, "Looking at nerfing D-wep for the tourney scene" ? "Re-Examining GT adjustments."

Or some such?

I did some of the MathHammer on D-weps here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647186.page

And then this thread can stay on BAO specific things, like the event, how it went, etc. Can Round 1 Challenges be worked into the pairing software for LVO and next year? Where was the masseuse from last year?

I wasn't debating the topic I even said there were other threads discussing it. I made one post on range d and one on flicker jump that listed the issues and I even referenced posts like yours that analyzed these issue when someone complained about it. I have no intention of repeating the same threads over again when there are several discussing it already.

Heard orks did well. That list around somewhere????

So bummed I couldnt come....

Pictures of the BAO 2015 40k Champs winners receiving their loot and glory!

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/07/20/pictures-of-40k-championships-award-winners-at-the-bao-2015/