So I just saw an email release from GW. $140 australian for a 10 man assault squad.....
There was a time when I said to people who complained about the price of new models, 'if it's too hot get out of the sun'
But dam, $14 each for an assault model which prob dosent even give you all the weapon options, looks like I'm joining them in the shade playing bolt action.
It’s pricy, no arguments. But the kit does look like it gives you almost all the options. The sarge won’t have a full range of power weapons, and might be missing one or two other things, but this box looks to have all the gear options for the squad.
Assuming nothing major changes when the new codex drops.
Yes, it's pricey, but it's great value when you consider that you get this incredibly well designed bare head, which can be painted to this exquisite standard.
It gives you the components to build 5 models all told, but it comes with enough torsos for 10.
Not that weird, Assault Squads have the option to remove jump packs, so it comes with non-jump pack torsos to go with the regular backpacks.
I know that part; I just find it weird that they actually included the option when you could basically do the same thing with a set of Tactical Marines and random bits and bobs.
It gives you the components to build 5 models all told, but it comes with enough torsos for 10.
Not that weird, Assault Squads have the option to remove jump packs, so it comes with non-jump pack torsos to go with the regular backpacks.
I know that part; I just find it weird that they actually included the option when you could basically do the same thing with a set of Tactical Marines and random bits and bobs.
Why would they leave an avenue open where you convert tacs into assault marines using your bitz box, when they can instead make a weeks rent off you? £50? Who do they think they are kidding? That is a 317% price increase in 11/12 years. (£12 a box when I was in 6th form).
As much as these Dakka Maelstrom ads are annoying, that kickstarter is starting to look at lot more competitive. As are all the 3rd party models. Wasn't really buying any GW models, no reason to get back into a bad habit.
Well, it's nice seeing the eviscerator chainsword at least. I'm probably going to get a box of these when they come out to see how the kits are. Looks like a good amount of bits.
I am amazed that GW doesn't just pull out of Australia and have them order from the UK.
The price seems ridiculous to you guys, but for the rest of the world, the price increase is like $8-$9 for a significantly better kit. It really doesn't make sense to me; I guess, a lot of Australia overhead relative to sales? So strange; if this is so they should just work with a distributor or freight forwarder there.
$98 Canadian for 10 dudes... That is more than $10 per mini, the 5 man kit being slightly more expensive.
Holy fuckety feth feth....
The minis look the same even!
Who wants to bet that those Chapter Upgrade sprues are about to herald the end of faction specific Tac kits? Oh what's that you say? They just released a Tac kit for BA? Yeah okay. That's a valid point... :looks at 6th ed Knight codex:
darkcloak wrote: $98 Canadian for 10 dudes... That is more than $10 per mini, the 5 man kit being slightly more expensive.
Holy fuckety feth feth....
The minis look the same even!
Who wants to bet that those Chapter Upgrade sprues are about to herald the end of faction specific Tac kits? Oh what's that you say? They just released a Tac kit for BA? Yeah okay. That's a valid point... :looks at 6th ed Knight codex:
1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either. 2. The minis don't look anything like each other, and they don't look anything like the old ones. A blind man with a stick could grope his way to the differences between them. 3. The Chapter Upgrade sprues are preordered out of the yinyang at my local store. They have like more than a hundred already spoken for! 4. As BA person who owns 3 BA Tactical boxes, 8 Death Company and 3 or 4 (or so) Sanguinary guard, I happily bought 5 BA upgrade sprues. There are some cool parts on there, like more lipped shoulder pads and the unique chest pieces. I bought 1 of the SW ones too, because the backpack on it is awesome. 5. If you aren't into the modelling aspect, OBVIOUSLY, the upgrade frames are a total waste of money. If you are, they are a much, much better deal than the old shoulder pads, which were only a few bucks less and came with ONLY 10 basic shoulder pads. And, those shoulder pads were the old (like, more than 10 year ago) size.
Sir Arun wrote: The new 5 man assault squad costs £25. How much did the old one cost?
That's the next thing to annoy me, you can shell out $490 aud or what ever it is to get the first company box set, but it costs you exactly the same to buy all the boxes individually.... Where is the incentive to buy in bulk?
A box of 5 assault marines for $70 or 10 for $140.
WORST MARKETING STRATEGY EVER.
Australian comparison- 2000pts of bolt action is about $250
Assault marines have always been expensive. Even back in 2nd ed, you got 5 of them for the same price as you'd get 10 tacticals. Not that I'm saying that justifies the price tag. -You're essentially getting charged the price of a whole tactical marine just for that jump pack. Disparity in model price is understandable in the case of sternguard, vanguard (higher detail / many parts) and terminators (higher detail, bulkier models). Not so much for regular assault marines...they're not even elites.
On the upside, the eviscrator....eviscirator....two-handed chainsword looks damn nice.
Talys wrote: 5. If you aren't into the modelling aspect, OBVIOUSLY, the upgrade frames are a total waste of money. If you are, they are a much, much better deal than the old shoulder pads, which were only a few bucks less and came with ONLY 10 basic shoulder pads. And, those shoulder pads were the old (like, more than 10 year ago) size
I'm really into the modelling aspect of building up my CSM army, and I find those upgrade frames like an absolute and terrible waste of money.
When I want some of my CSM to have individual and unique shoulderpads, I get 10 plain and compatible pieces at 1 cent each and do some work with green stuff and various bits on top of them. I'm far, very far from being truly good at working with green stuff, but still I'm usually quite satisfied with the result.
aprilmanha wrote: Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap
Actually, model for model GW is cheaper than PP most of the time.
Talys wrote: 1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either.
Do you work for GW's marketing team?
It's attitudes like that which have led to GW's slow decline over the years. "If there were paying X they'll be fine paying 20% more than X". Yeah, until they aren't and you lose a bunch of customers, lol.
Talys wrote: 1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either.
Do you work for GW's marketing team?
It's attitudes like that which have led to GW's slow decline over the years. "If there were paying X they'll be fine paying 20% more than X". Yeah, until they aren't and you lose a bunch of customers, lol.
This ^
GW is slowly pricing people out of the game. Remember when they swapped from pewter to "keep costs down?" I started playing this game in the early 90's, when I was a kid. With allowance and odd jobs, I could scrape together enough to play the game. But now I have no idea how kids, GW's increasingly targeted audience, are supposed to play this.
That being said, on GW's relative scale, the new Assault Squad box doesn't seem that bad.
Talys wrote: 1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either.
Do you work for GW's marketing team?
It's attitudes like that which have led to GW's slow decline over the years. "If there were paying X they'll be fine paying 20% more than X". Yeah, until they aren't and you lose a bunch of customers, lol.
I know what you mean. However, pricing curves are not perfectly smooth. There is a HUGE difference between $50 and $80 (your previous jump, I think I read?), much less of a difference between $80 and $100. Personally, I think $80 or $100 for Assault Marines is awfully steep, and there's a pretty good chance that either is beyond what I'm willing to spend on them.
On the other hand, if I'm picking up boxes for $80... bleh, f*ck it, I'm already past the point of no return. It's already so high that if I could buy that without feeling bad, it wouldn't matter if they were $100. I guess that's what I mean
To take an extreme example, a normal-ish 1850 army might be $600 after discounts around here (with really nice stuff!). If they raised that 20% to $720, but I got nicer models... **shrug**.
If that same $600 army -- $900 undiscounted -- were $1,800 in Australia (it seems you guys don't get nice big discounts like us AND it costs twice as much MSRP...), I'd probably pick a different hobby/game. Or read a book. Or write a book. Or just spend time with the wife watch movies and be a couch potato But if I had so much money that $1,800 didn't matter, and it went to $2160, well, what the hell. Not like you can take it with you, right?
Don't get me wrong.. $80.. $98... super-expensive!
Korinov wrote:
Talys wrote: 5. If you aren't into the modelling aspect, OBVIOUSLY, the upgrade frames are a total waste of money. If you are, they are a much, much better deal than the old shoulder pads, which were only a few bucks less and came with ONLY 10 basic shoulder pads. And, those shoulder pads were the old (like, more than 10 year ago) size
I'm really into the modelling aspect of building up my CSM army, and I find those upgrade frames like an absolute and terrible waste of money.
When I want some of my CSM to have individual and unique shoulderpads, I get 10 plain and compatible pieces at 1 cent each and do some work with green stuff and various bits on top of them. I'm far, very far from being truly good at working with green stuff, but still I'm usually quite satisfied with the result.
Plus I don't have to spend 10€ per upgrade frame
Touche! Very true, if that is your thing
By the way, it works out well for Blood Angels, because you get 2 front torso pieces, which is essentially 2 models -- since a lot of us have a zillion back torsos, and god only knows how many legs. I really like sculpted shoulder pads, though.
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LeperColony wrote: GW is slowly pricing people out of the game. Remember when they swapped from pewter to "keep costs down?" I started playing this game in the early 90's, when I was a kid. With allowance and odd jobs, I could scrape together enough to play the game. But now I have no idea how kids, GW's increasingly targeted audience, are supposed to play this.
That being said, on GW's relative scale, the new Assault Squad box doesn't seem that bad.
While I don't disagree with your hypothesis, would you actually want to go back to pewter (or, going further back, lead) miniatures?
I love going back and painting the odd metal mini once in a while (or chip away at my PP collection). It's very nostalgic, they take no time to clean up and you can jump right into painting. Then I remember all the reasons that I love plastic miniatures LOL.
aprilmanha wrote: Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap
Actually, model for model GW is cheaper than PP most of the time.
Why, because PP is metal? Or has slightly bigger models? I'm really just curious, I've heard this before but haven't see a ton of examples so I'd just like more info.
darkcloak wrote: $98 Canadian for 10 dudes... That is more than $10 per mini, the 5 man kit being slightly more expensive.
Holy fuckety feth feth....
The minis look the same even!
Who wants to bet that those Chapter Upgrade sprues are about to herald the end of faction specific Tac kits? Oh what's that you say? They just released a Tac kit for BA? Yeah okay. That's a valid point... :looks at 6th ed Knight codex:
1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either.
2. The minis don't look anything like each other, and they don't look anything like the old ones. A blind man with a stick could grope his way to the differences between them.
3. The Chapter Upgrade sprues are preordered out of the yinyang at my local store. They have like more than a hundred already spoken for!
4. As BA person who owns 3 BA Tactical boxes, 8 Death Company and 3 or 4 (or so) Sanguinary guard, I happily bought 5 BA upgrade sprues. There are some cool parts on there, like more lipped shoulder pads and the unique chest pieces. I bought 1 of the SW ones too, because the backpack on it is awesome.
5. If you aren't into the modelling aspect, OBVIOUSLY, the upgrade frames are a total waste of money. If you are, they are a much, much better deal than the old shoulder pads, which were only a few bucks less and came with ONLY 10 basic shoulder pads. And, those shoulder pads were the old (like, more than 10 year ago) size.
Sir Arun wrote: The new 5 man assault squad costs £25. How much did the old one cost?
I don't have the answer, but I suspect 20-21 GBP.
1: I did buy the old ASM kit. And for the 35 bucks I paid I was happy. Oh ignorance is bliss.
2: shameless GW fanboy attitudes do not a new kit make.
3 & 4: Good for you.
5: At what point did I say the upgrade sprues were a waste?
You fail entirely to grasp the subject of my ire. You also blindly attack me based on nothing more than a four line post. Perhaps its not Games Workshop that pisses me off, but the disgusting dregs of human waste that think this hobby somehow warrants the full weight of a mans life to be thrown haphazardly into it.
I'm sorry you think you disagree Mr. DCM. But quite frankly I couldn't give a rats ass what you think. Enjoy playing with whatever poor saps are forced to tolerate the stench of your attitude!
aprilmanha wrote: Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap
Actually, model for model GW is cheaper than PP most of the time.
Why, because PP is metal? Or has slightly bigger models? I'm really just curious, I've heard this before but haven't see a ton of examples so I'd just like more info.
No, PP models just cost more per model, for most models. Their plastic and resin kits are pretty expensive too. I love metal minis as much as the next guy, but frankly, they are almost universally not as nice as modern plastic multipart GW minis, because you end up with things like undercuts (areas where it's just solid space, where there SHOULD be a model. It just isn't possible to make a 15 piece 30mm tall miniature in metal.
Also, anything bigger than infantry is a pain in metal, and anything the size of a tank/jet/imperial knight is horrible as metal. Of course, some players would far prefer their game to be composed of infantry-sized play pieces (in which case, 40k probably isn't the game for them anyhow, because this is no longer the game of 40k that most people play).
The real difference is that in 40k, you need a lot of models to play for most factions and builds, and the manufacturer encourages you (via rule changes.) to keep buying MOAR MINIATURES. Now, don't get me wrong, WMH has it's own escalation happening, and they pump out new stuff too. But it generally isn't as unbalancing (to take an extreme example, D weapon changes and Wraithknights, or Necron Decurion that overnight shift the meta seismically for competitive play). Plus, the cadence is much slower than GW.
But if you just wanted to paint some stuff, buying space marines or terminators or nobz are gonna be cheaper than buying some trollblood scattergunners.
I'm sorry if I come across a a total jerk, its because I am. I'm just tired of having neckbeards tear me a new one and all but call me stupid simply because I don't wave the flag like a good consumer.
People have a choice ya know. And if some of us are disgusted by the way our hobby is being marginalized in the name of profits then I'm quite sure we are allowed to voice that.
Even the flag wavers have a right to defend their hallowed beliefs, Emprah protects, and you know what? Good for you for coming out and defending something you love!
Just don't be surprised when someone decides to snap at you because they have an equally powerful, but opposite, conviction.
darkcloak wrote: 1: I did buy the old ASM kit. And for the 35 bucks I paid I was happy. Oh ignorance is bliss.
I wasn't comparing $35 to $98 though. I was comparing $80 to $98.
darkcloak wrote: 2: shameless GW fanboy attitudes do not a new kit make.
Well, you don't like them, which is your prerogative (and of course you shouldn't buy them). But it isn't being a "fanboy" to point out that they have posable legs, something never seen in space marines, scenic bases, totally new sculpts, new weapons, and even refreshed upper torsos. Plus the old Devastator box had fuzzy, crappy plastic.
So, no, I stand by what I said: the new kit is a huge improvement over the old one, and other than that hey represent the same unit in 40k, they are nothing alike each other.
Anyways, I didn't mean it as a personal attack. I just didn't think you would have liked the old kit for $80 any more than the new kit for $98 (tell me if I'm wrong), and I wholeheartedly disagree with you that the new kit is just a rebadge of the old one. I don't know what your rant was about the upgrade sprues; it really made no sense. They are a good part, they're decently priced relative to the old shoulder pads, and they augment, not replace, chapter-specific kits, anything from ravenwing command to longfangs.
And, I don't see how making a small donation to Dakka has anything to do with anything at all >.<
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darkcloak wrote: I'm sorry if I come across a a total jerk, its because I am. I'm just tired of having neckbeards tear me a new one and all but call me stupid simply because I don't wave the flag like a good consumer.
People have a choice ya know. And if some of us are disgusted by the way our hobby is being marginalized in the name of profits then I'm quite sure we are allowed to voice that.
Even the flag wavers have a right to defend their hallowed beliefs, Emprah protects, and you know what? Good for you for coming out and defending something you love!
Just don't be surprised when someone decides to snap at you because they have an equally powerful, but opposite, conviction.
You have every right to, and if I made it feel like a personal attack, I'm sorry, because that's not what I intended.
I still think the new kit is a huge improvement over the old one though, and the price increase of about $9 -- which is like, $6.75 with a "good" 25% discount -- is well worth the difference in product.
Finally, Darkcloak, I am genuinely sorry that you've been priced out of a game or hobby that you enjoy. -- off to supper for me, so that's the last of it for a little bit, from me
Talys wrote: On the other hand, if I'm picking up boxes for $80... bleh, f*ck it, I'm already past the point of no return. It's already so high that if I could buy that without feeling bad, it wouldn't matter if they were $100. I guess that's what I mean
I can understand how you personally might feel like that, though I don't think you can really assume that attitude of others. A 20% price increase is still a 20% price increase and there will be people at each price level level that think 20% more is the difference between acceptable and over the top.
I plan on buying more of the old Assault squads before they disappear. The increase from $33 to $41 for five figures is ugh. I do like the scenic bases though. Maybe there are some other interesting bits but I don't like them enough to see a difference.
Talys wrote: 1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either.
Do you work for GW's marketing team?
It's attitudes like that which have led to GW's slow decline over the years. "If there were paying X they'll be fine paying 20% more than X". Yeah, until they aren't and you lose a bunch of customers, lol.
This ^
GW is slowly pricing people out of the game. Remember when they swapped from pewter to "keep costs down?" I started playing this game in the early 90's, when I was a kid. With allowance and odd jobs, I could scrape together enough to play the game. But now I have no idea how kids, GW's increasingly targeted audience, are supposed to play this.
That being said, on GW's relative scale, the new Assault Squad box doesn't seem that bad.
Slowly? They're literally boosting their prices ten times faster than inflation. The thing that drives me crazy is that they already offer the premium service in the form of Forge World. That's where they get high-paying customers who don't care about price. But the base GW is completely missing the point. It should be cheap and easy to get people involved in 40k. There should be a reasonably priced Necromunda kit with some revision of the original rules so that it's easy to get people to buy into the hobby. Then you have Kill Team, some basic army boxes, and you build out from there. Let cheap hobbyists buy and play their way, let splurge hobbyists do it their way.
But now, they've moved what is probably the second or third thing that a prospective gamer is going to click into a crazy price range. $82 for ten guys? For something that won't even be enough to actually get started and play the game? That was how much the Mordheim starter kit cost my brother and I in high school, which came with 20 models, the rules (including army lists, core rules, and campaign elements), cardstock terrain, dice, and measuring sticks. A set that you could literally put onto the table and play the actual game. How on earth is anyone supposed to engage a potential gamer with this? Everyone looks at Space Marines first, and an $82 price tag for ten models is ridiculous.
LeperColony wrote: GW is slowly pricing people out of the game. Remember when they swapped from pewter to "keep costs down?" I started playing this game in the early 90's, when I was a kid. With allowance and odd jobs, I could scrape together enough to play the game. But now I have no idea how kids, GW's increasingly targeted audience, are supposed to play this.
That being said, on GW's relative scale, the new Assault Squad box doesn't seem that bad.
While I don't disagree with your hypothesis, would you actually want to go back to pewter (or, going further back, lead) miniatures?
I love going back and painting the odd metal mini once in a while (or chip away at my PP collection). It's very nostalgic, they take no time to clean up and you can jump right into painting. Then I remember all the reasons that I love plastic miniatures LOL.
A return to metals would probably be superior in certain limited cases, for instance highly detailed single models, but in general I definitely don't advocate a return to them. My point was more that GW's move to Finecast and plastics was supposedly motivated by a desire to control costs, but massive price increases came anyway.
Of course, it's not as if GW were just slapping higher prices on the same junk. Each time new sets come out, they look great, which is why older models, on the whole, do such a poor job of holding their value. The newer stuff is just plain better.
The problem is GW's pricing strategy can basically be boiled down to "gouge the consumer." Price increases are common and sharp. Entry level costs are also rising at a troubling rate. It's $165 for the basic rules set. And another $98 for a codex. You're looking at over US $250 (before tax) before you've got a single model (though you can get the rules cheaper if you get a starter set, assuming you want those models or are willing to go through the trouble of selling them at a loss). Releases are divided unnecessarily (Adeptus Mechanicus, anyone?) simply to sell another book.
While PP and GW may have comparable prices on a per model basis, the fact that you need much, much fewer to play Hordemachine is significant. Trying to convince someone to try 40k these days is only viable because you can pick up armies for reasonable prices on secondary markets.
GW just keeps rising prices and rising prices, and then wonders why they are posting record drops in profitability. They aren't the only game in town anymore, they can't keep charging like they are forever.
I purchased more than 300 points of infinity models (11+ models, one large one the rest normal sized) for less than cost of 10 of these Assault Marines. 166 NZD for these are insane.
These assault marines are worth next to nothing in 40k terms. In my experience they die like flies as well.
For Bolt action I can get 48 multi part plastic jinfantry, some metal dudes, 2 support guns and a tank for 20 dollars less (144 NZD). Plus that Bolt Action set is more than enough to play a game with.
Swastakowey wrote: I purchased more than 300 points of infinity models (11+ models, one large one the rest normal sized) for less than cost of 10 of these Assault Marines. 166 NZD for these are insane.
These assault marines are worth next to nothing in 40k terms. In my experience they die like flies as well.
For Bolt action I can get 48 multi part plastic jinfantry, some metal dudes, 2 support guns and a tank for 20 dollars less (144 NZD). Plus that Bolt Action set is more than enough to play a game with.
I don't understand how anybody can buy this.
Well, some people are less price sensitive than others, either due to means or motivation or both. For me personally 40k is an affordable hobby, but expensive for what it is. The bigger issue for me is that I increasingly no longer really feel like GW values me as a customer, or that as a company it has the kind of practices and philosophy I'd want to support. Right now, 40k has a lot of sentimental and emotional value to me, on account of having played it for so long and having enjoyed good times with good friends, some of whom I don't really see anymore. But ultimately that will only carry me through so many price gouges.
Swastakowey wrote: I purchased more than 300 points of infinity models (11+ models, one large one the rest normal sized) for less than cost of 10 of these Assault Marines. 166 NZD for these are insane.
These assault marines are worth next to nothing in 40k terms. In my experience they die like flies as well.
For Bolt action I can get 48 multi part plastic jinfantry, some metal dudes, 2 support guns and a tank for 20 dollars less (144 NZD). Plus that Bolt Action set is more than enough to play a game with.
I don't understand how anybody can buy this.
People love space marines. So much so, they will pay anything and coo over the smallest of changes to the models as a big thing. That's why they buy them.
aprilmanha wrote: Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap
You should look at the stuff from Corvus Belli then.. I made a tournament legal power army for less than what I paid for the Cadian Defence Force box. The rules, templates and even terrain is free online. Lol.
I started playing in 3rd edition. I bought a box of 10 Tactical Marines for 25.00 USD and a metal Librarian with an axe for 7.50 USD from my local Games Workshop, and 3 pots of paint (Snot Green, Boltgun Metal, and Dwarven Bronze) for 7.50 USD. Then I went to Walmart and bought a can of black spraypaint and a little thing of superglue for probably under 5.00 USD. That was enough to play! Less than 50 bucks.
I still love this game through all GW's stupid marketing and balance decisions because it's fun to play with my friends. I didn't complain about Allies shenangans, not even Taudar. But the direction they're going now blows my mind entirely. Strength "D" and formations of formations. Formations are neat but that's not how I want to play. I don't want to use the list the company makes, I want to make my own list with the units I think are cool and play it the way I think is fun. If it ever gets to the point where I can't make a decently competitive list at 1500-2000 pts just using one Codex and the old-as-dirt Force Org chart, that'll probably be the end of my interest in the tabletop hobby.
aprilmanha wrote: Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap
You should look at the stuff from Corvus Belli then.. I made a tournament legal power army for less than what I paid for the Cadian Defence Force box. The rules, templates and even terrain is free online. Lol.
I made a tourney legal horde army for Infinity and got all the rules for it* for about the same price as the 40k core rulebook. Thanks to GWs price gouging in Australia I can get into most games with average sized armies and rules for less than just the required rules for a GW game.
aprilmanha wrote: Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap
You should look at the stuff from Corvus Belli then.. I made a tournament legal power army for less than what I paid for the Cadian Defence Force box. The rules, templates and even terrain is free online. Lol.
I made a tourney legal horde army for Infinity and got all the rules for it* for about the same price as the 40k core rulebook. Thanks to GWs price gouging in Australia I can get into most games with average sized armies and rules for less than just the required rules for a GW game.
*since they are free online
I just checked GW's price for the rulebook in Australian currency... I paid 2$ more for the Cadian Defence Force box at an online retailer than your full price rulebook! That's so grotesque that it's not even funny...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, my entire Nomad Sectorial Army have custom resin bases from Micro Art Studios, which still made the army cost less than the Cadian Defence Force box.
I wonder how GW makes people buy those, and unless they give them some sort of crazy rules in the sm codex , I can't imagine what they were thinking. That much for a unit that is never taken in marine armies, when bikes are clearly a superior choice?They betterl do auto melta bomb attacks on charge or something else crazy. But then what about all those BA players with their assault marines that got nerfed?
GW sells policy seems to be harder to understand then cabala.
I mean for the cost of adding something "new" to my IG, I can buy an infinity army and starting an army from scratch is as much as 2-3 armies with totaly different play styles.
As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.
LeperColony wrote: As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.
I can imagine season passes for army supplements becoming a real thing.
LeperColony wrote: As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.
Care to elaborate on that? I can't really think of many, if any, exclusive models that very few people have due to limited quantity that also happens to break the tournaments and regular games.
LeperColony wrote: As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.
I can imagine season passes for army supplements becoming a real thing.
Nah, at this rate you only get one or two seasons and then everything is obsolete. They'd make more money selling lifetime passes for things that don't get updated as editions change.
Taffy17 wrote: Isn't the 10 man assault squad on the website is just 2 of the 5 man boxes?
I'll agree, why are they the same cost as the far more impressive vanguard kit and twice as expensive per model than the regular Tac squad?
I believe it is but the fact it is there as a one click bundle makes it so much more obvious as to how much you're expected to pay for a full squad of a pretty generic and standard trooper.
LeperColony wrote: As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.
Care to elaborate on that? I can't really think of many, if any, exclusive models that very few people have due to limited quantity that also happens to break the tournaments and regular games.
Did many people actually want Assault Marines? I know the old kit had its problems and the new one is clearly nicer, but its Assault Marines, doesn't every Marine player have a load of these already? It's not like the new Devastators where they have added in Grav so there is a reason to buy the new boxes?
LeperColony wrote: As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.
Care to elaborate on that? I can't really think of many, if any, exclusive models that very few people have due to limited quantity that also happens to break the tournaments and regular games.
LeperColony wrote: As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.
I can imagine season passes for army supplements becoming a real thing.
You joke, but a move to a subscription based rules delivery format makes some sense, from a financial standpoint. Right now, the cost to acquire all the current rules well exceeds $1,000 (I haven't done the math, but it wouldn't surprise me if it approached $2,000). The sheer absurdity of this fact leads to two natural, though not necessarily inevitable results.
First, pirating becomes more common. Of course, there will always be some piracy, but as we're seeing with other formats (music, video, games), there's a large segment of the consumer base that will pay a relatively modest amount for legitimate access.
Second, the number of people who purchase rules they don't need for their own armies diminishes. Back when codices were $20-30, you could acquire all the rules to every army in the game for a few hundred bucks. That's not nothing, but it's not completely unreasonable, and many people did it. I was one. But I can't see buying everything at the current prices.
By moving to a subscription model for electronic copies (say $10-15/month), both GW and the players would benefit. Exposing players to new armies can only increase sales, as people find things they otherwise would never have encountered. At the same time, the reduced price should result in much greater adoption, leading to more sales. Whether the increased sales makes up for the price reduction I'm not sure, but with a subscription model you collect on an ongoing basis. With books, it's one and done (until the next one).
LeperColony wrote: A return to metals would probably be superior in certain limited cases, for instance highly detailed single models, but in general I definitely don't advocate a return to them. My point was more that GW's move to Finecast and plastics was supposedly motivated by a desire to control costs, but massive price increases came anyway.
Of course, it's not as if GW were just slapping higher prices on the same junk. Each time new sets come out, they look great, which is why older models, on the whole, do such a poor job of holding their value. The newer stuff is just plain better.
The move from metal to plastic/finecast was supposed to lower prices and, in the case of Finecast, improve the quality of the material used.
The truth is, my metal dark elf corsairs, executioners and black guard came in boxes of 10 for 25€ back when I bought them, around 10-12 years ago. All of those units were eventually moved to plastic, and the only ones which got cheaper were the corsairs, which at 21€ still today are so cheap by GW standards that they almost look like an anachronism from a bygone era. The others? 40€ the 10-man box.
And the "newer stuff is better" argument clearly does not work with them, as I consider the 6th edition metal models to be vastly superior to the plastic ones that came to replace them.
Korinov wrote: The move from metal to plastic/finecast was supposed to lower prices and, in the case of Finecast, improve the quality of the material used.
The truth is, the move from metal to plastic was to stabilize costs, because the price of metal was a little bit of a roller coaster. It wasn't really to lower prices in the long term (whatever GW initially claimed).
Korinov wrote: And the "newer stuff is better" argument clearly does not work with them, as I consider the 6th edition metal models to be vastly superior to the plastic ones that came to replace them.
A lot of the new kits are a lot better than the old metal models, though. Not every single one, but there are some great examples -- take the Death Jester. Besides, it's nice to have everything in plastic now, although I am always nostalgic about metal and like painting them once in a while. Oh, well, that's why we have Infinity
If the intention was to stabilize costs, I guess switching to plastic (an oil-dependant product) wasn't the best of ideas then.
As much as I love metal minis, I acknowledge plastic has its advantages. Less weight, easy to work with, etc. Although to be honest white metal is pretty user-friendly too when it comes to modelling.
Also, I don't really know if it has something to do with mould crafting, but I find metal minis to usually have more... "depth", "personality". Dunno how to express it, really. They tend to be more "tridimensional" from my point of view. Although again, I have to acknowledge some plastic kits produced in recent years have improved massively my general opinion on plastics (raptors/warp talons :3).
As others have pointed out these models just keep getting more and more expensive. Shame we can't get a price to quality + option ration more similar to that of the Stormboyz or Nobz box. $25 U.S. for 5 models with really good sculpt quality, lots of wargear, and plenty of customization options. I fear what a new boyz box will be like (11 for 50 most likely).
The upgrade sprue is highway robbery when your paying $13 for 18 pieces of plastic (10 being shoulders) when a tact squad cost $40 and has 179 pieces.
Edited due to the iphone's auto correct being as terrible as a power klaw in the hands of a grot.
Korinov wrote: If the intention was to stabilize costs, I guess switching to plastic (an oil-dependant product) wasn't the best of ideas then.
As much as I love metal minis, I acknowledge plastic has its advantages. Less weight, easy to work with, etc. Although to be honest white metal is pretty user-friendly too when it comes to modelling.
Also, I don't really know if it has something to do with mould crafting, but I find metal minis to usually have more... "depth", "personality". Dunno how to express it, really. They tend to be more "tridimensional" from my point of view. Although again, I have to acknowledge some plastic kits produced in recent years have improved massively my general opinion on plastics (raptors/warp talons :3).
Well, the price of plastic is so small that the fluctuations in oil price have no real bearing on the cost of production. I mean, go to a dollar store, and look at how much plastic you can get for $1. And those dollar stores are selling the plastic containers for orders of magnitude more than their production cost.
The problem with metal isn't so much the material, it's that metal models don't use a lot of pieces, because it's impractical to assemble little fidly parts that are metal, whereas modern resin or plastic models can have tons of pieces. This gets rid of undercuts (the areas where a mold can't get to, so you have dead space) and allow for models that can be rotated in all axis that are viewed correctly, I just took this picture comparing Dominus to Bradigus, as a comparison of two $35-ish models. The Bradigus model illustrates the limitations of metal (by the way, I love both models).
A practical problem of wargaming with metal gaming pieces is just that as they get larger and have more pieces, they just fall apart, even when you pin them all to death. For the same reasons, they transport really badly, and it's just no fun to be supergluing stuff during your turn or before setup.
Talys wrote: Well, the price of plastic is so small that the fluctuations in oil price have no real bearing on the cost of production. I mean, go to a dollar store, and look at how much plastic you can get for $1. And those dollar stores are selling the plastic containers for orders of magnitude more than their production cost.
Yes, I understand plastic is basically worthless. That's why there's usually more plastic 'wasted' on the sprue itself than on the bits and pieces that came with it. And that's also why the usual argument supporting crazy prices due to "lots of bits in the sprue" is nonsense.
The problem with metal isn't so much the material, it's that metal models don't use a lot of pieces, because it's impractical to assemble little fidly parts that are metal, whereas modern resin or plastic models can have tons of pieces. This gets rid of undercuts (the areas where a mold can't get to, so you have dead space) and allow for models that can be rotated in all axis that are viewed correctly, I just took this picture comparing Dominus to Bradigus, as a comparison of two $35-ish models. The Bradigus model illustrates the limitations of metal (by the way, I love both models).
A practical problem of wargaming with metal gaming pieces is just that as they get larger and have more pieces, they just fall apart, even when you pin them all to death. For the same reasons, they transport really badly, and it's just no fun to be supergluing stuff during your turn or before setup.
I agree metal is simply a no-no for big models. I have the 6th edition dark elves Hydra. A nice model to a degree, but holy cow its assembly made me break a sweat for sure.
As for the less pieces/more pieces issue, I dunno, I think sometimes less pieces can be better. You will have less options, yeah, but in the end it all comes down to the quality of the design and the sculpt. I.e. the russian alternative chaos dwarfs (metal) have fixed poses and you can only switch heads and weapons. Yet the end result is, in my personal opinion, way superior to most dwarf plastic kits in the market (if not all). I don't know if metal simply allows a higher degree of 'crispy' detail that from my point of view puts high quality metal models simply a step beyond what plastics can achieve. Perhaps I'm just biased and love my metal models too much.
I am simply eternally grateful that I already own all the figs I basically need for the two armies I collect.
Now, when something comes out - regardless of price, if I don't 'need' it, I don't buy it, and when I do buy, 90% of the time it's from 2nd hand sources. NEVER GW-direct.
Assault Marines? These aren't exactly 'new' troops. Do you have the old ones already? Chances are if you're a veteran player, you have some. Why the urge to buy what you already have? Because they look nicer? I don't blame you - but if you're buying them simply for aesthetic reasons, then you know the price of admission and can make your own informed purchase decision.
The people I -really- feel badly for is anyone looking to get into the game for the first time. I can say with 100% conviction that if I had zero figs and was looking into a GW game, just starting-out... I'd skip the brand -completely-. Unlike the 80's, there are alternatives available now., too many of them to count almost. But just about every one of them is more affordable.
But this complaint has been around since the 90's. Prices creep upward 10x the rise of inflation, people belly-ache... and then they keep buying anyway. Take all the anger and vitriol and sob stories from all over the world, put them in a big shipping container and deliver to their HQ, and guess what? Nothing is going to happen. GW will do whatever GW wants to do, and only a -drastic- cut in revenues is going give them cause for concern, because they've been milking the fanbase for -decades- and for them, their business model works.
Saw the box, thought "Oh, new casts are nice. 10 for £50 isn't bad considering the old 5 Man box was 22.50. But Vanguard Vets looks better, looks like i'm sticking with them for £16 a box!"
Saw this thread, thought "Hmm, equal amounts of anti-GW and pro-GW, Price increase on a complete Luxury item is expected. If you're weighing up affording a Box of plastic men and eating for a week, I think you have bigger issues"
Do GW price hike, yes. Does it annoy me? Yes. But I'd rather pay £50 for a GW product then ANYTHING put out by the AAA game industry. I feel I get £50 worth of enjoyment from GW, between modelling, painting and playing.
Granted, for my £50, they could at least hire an FAQ team, perhaps even playtest their rules, hell even take that revenue and give me some SoB plastics.
But it is what it is. A luxury object that has no use other then your own self enjoyment. The learning curve of painting and modelling, and the stories and enjoyment to be had playing a game with friends is priceless imo.
I am not defending GW, I disagree with their "DLC"ing of certain armies (Supplements.. urg), I disagree with the rules and Codices being over-priced beyond ridiculous and I hate that the design team are a bunch of out-of-touch idiots who couldn't balance a scale.
But lets look at this relative to other hobbies (Pricing is conservative based on my own experience)
PC Gaming: Chances are you need to upgrade your rig every couple of years, new GPU -£200, RAM - £30, SSD- £200 = £430, at least. Lets throw some non-steam summer sale games in (and keep it thematic kinda) DoW collection £30, Space Marine £15, Mass Effect collection £60, = 535 Don't even get me started on buying a new rig.
Console Gaming: (Assuming your a good little boy/girl/Chaos Spawn who doesn't buy preowned) Console - £300, -each game- £40 (lets say 3 hot new titles you want, so ME3, DA:I and Madden) = £420, and god forbid they ever release a new console with no backwards capability and console exclusive titles you want to play and charge a sub fee to access the internet on it (oh wait..)
40K - Army Box set £80, codex - £40, BRB - £50, throw in some units you like - £60 = £230. Thats a core army, the rules needed and some extra units (I don't know, say 1 unit of sternguard and some termies), to be fair lets throw in another £20 for paints, £10 on brushes, that's £260 for a fully playable army, with the extras needed to make it look Fabulous.
MMO Gaming - (Or should I say, the only good one) WoW - £20 for battlechest, £40 for Warlords of Draenor, £10 a month sub (lets say a year) = £180
I don't think GW is that bad when you line it up with everything else considered a hobby and how much they cost.
If, on the other hand, you have no patience and -have- to buy the new hotness asap, and still complain about prices, I have no sympathy for you.
What I find really, really odd about the 10 man Assault marine box is the price. So in GW/GW website in the UK it is £25 for a box of 5 marines and £50 for a box of 10. Getting the 10 man set is no different to getting 2 boxes of 5 marines separately.
GW should be giving some incentive for getting the 10 man box, i.e. make it a bit cheaper (£40 instead of £50 for example)
MMO Gaming - (Or should I say, the only good one) WoW - £20 for battlechest, £40 for Warlords of Draenor, £10 a month sub (lets say a year) = £180
Subscriptions are only for people that don't run game farming bots. a 30day game play token costs around 40000 gold, and that is like nothing.
PC Gaming: Chances are you need to upgrade your rig every couple of years, new GPU -£200, RAM - £30, SSD- £200 = £430, at least. Lets throw some non-steam summer sale games in (and keep it thematic kinda) DoW collection £30, Space Marine £15, Mass Effect collection £60, = 535 Don't even get me started on buying a new rig.
But you can download those games free and, no idea how it is in UK, but anyone under 18 or under 27 if he goes to an uni can get a "rig" refunded from the EU program for students. You can actualy do the same thing with w40k though, only it requires more work. Not to mention how many hours you get out of games. Full clear of mass effect is what 200hours , all 3 witcher parts around the same. They are also fun not just for you, but for other people too. Unlike w40k which is offten fun only for one person, depending on what codex one has or what match up one plays.
Why are people comparing GW's prices for a wargaming product to non-wargaming products?
Its about as useful as a metric as comparing 40k to luxury yachting or owning a helicopter.
Oh, and I asked this another thread, but for the people who think the new kit is priced fairly, or at least still worth buying in your eyes, at what price point would you not buy it?
Blacksails wrote: Oh, and I asked this another thread, but for the people who think the new kit is priced fairly, or at least still worth buying in your eyes, at what price point would you not buy it?
There you go, a good question!
The answer, of course, is not simple. In 1990, if a 5-man kit were $50, sticker shock would have made me go ZOMG and do something else, like take my then-girlfriend on a nice dinner. In 2015, it's not sticker shock anymore. Then again, I would have never paid $15 for movie ticket back then either, or $12 for a popcorn and drink, or $130 for a videogame with a season pass that I got bored with before the first DLC came out. So the lesson is, ease in the price increases.
Now, specific to the ASM kit. I think it went from USD $33 -> USD $42. Not to sound like a dick, but $9 doesn't even get me a decent fast food meal anymore, so if I want something at $33, I'll certainly pay for it at $42. GW probably knows this. I think psychologically, $50 for a box of 5 ($10 per miniature) is probably significant, and $50 after my discount (just call it $65) would probably be another psychological barrier. At $100, it would be a no-go, for sure, I think. Partly, I have too many assault marines and ASM bits and BA parts that can be used as ASM (Sanguinary, Death Company) than I know what to do with anyhow.
I should also point out that with the ASM box, I add $5 of value to the kit because of the scenic bases. I happily give SWM $13.50-$15 for 10 32mm scenic bases, so I have no problem paying $1 more for a model that comes with a scenic base. Of course, I would be happier if GW sold a Scenic base sprue for $16 / 10 bases.
But let's put aside ASM and let's say they create a cool new power armor unit called a Xipher Squad, a power armored 32mm base model that was just really cool. How much would I pay for THAT? Well, now, that is a much harder question. I didn't blink at paying $80 for 3 centurions (I bought 2 boxes, actually). I even bought the ugly $70 robots. I paid $70 to get Borka on the bear (from Privateer Press), at $35 for Bradigus, a really crappy value model, got multiple Harlequin characters, and all that. But I don't want to buy only death jesters at death jester prices, because I like hacking models up, and I don't want to hack up a $30 model. Frankly, this is one of the reasons I buy a lot less Privateer Press -- they don't have multimodel boxes with an abundance of spare bits. If they did, they'd get a lot of my spending. But anyways.
So, would I pay $100 USD for new assault marines, even if they were awesome? No, I don't think so. Would I pay $100 USD for a brand new squad that I thought was super duper awesome? Probably. But this wouldn't be a good move on GW's part anyhow. At $50, I would probably buy 3 of the brand new super duper squad (or as many boxes as I might field); at $100, I would probably just buy 1 to own something I really want. Since the profit margin on those models is probably so high that the cost is negligible; therefore GW's correct pricing formula is to price it as high as people would pay per unit multiplied by the maximum number of boxes they would buy. It's like charging a little for supersized fries or a giant soft drink -- it's just extra profit, because the cost is barely a rounding error.
You could actually say the same thing about ASM. If they kept it at $35, I would buy as many as was useful. Instead, I'm buying 2, and might buy another 1 or 2, if it turns out that it's useful to do so from a gaming perspective (which it probably won't be).
ausYenLoWang wrote: HAHAHA oh wow, i just saw this... i thought they typod the australian pricing, BUT its 50 pounds in the UK. what in the heck happened here?
You might be mistaken that Assault Squads box used to come in 10s, it didn't; it came in 5s.
It's £25 for the 5-men squad, and it was £20-ish(?) for the previous Assault Squad, so that's like ~1 pound increase per model. If the sprue was to be believed there are far more stuff in the box than the last rendition of Assault Squad. Although the box price jumped drastically when it uses USD (not to mention some other currencies, for that matter). Although if I recall correctly the price on a (10x) TAC marine box three years ago in my FLGS was around $40, but I could be mistaken. At any rate, 5x Assault Squad had always been rather expensive when you consider how many marines you can actually make. I honestly don't see what all the hustle is.
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Blacksails wrote: Oh, and I asked this another thread, but for the people who think the new kit is priced fairly, or at least still worth buying in your eyes, at what price point would you not buy it?
At around $5.5 per model for TAC squad (and the all the extra bits added won't matter because I always get spare parts anyways, it's the torsos and legs that matters). And twice the price for any specialist squads. At this point for me is the point to quit, because the Assault marine box would be well over $50 and that's at least $10 more.
This is, of course, disregarding inflation. Obviously if I work the same job and made $10/hr yesterday got a $.5/hr increase simply because of inflation that actually makes it just a slightly more expensive.
I'm certain it's just two 5-man boxes. In true GW style, the bundle is the same price as just buying the 2 separate boxes
I know, I was just confused why he reacted in that fashion (extremely surprised) as if the price was 20 BPD straight to 50 BPD. I'll admit, 40 BPD (although I'm not sure if that was the price) to 50 BPD is no small matter, but you also get twice the content, so a higher price hike is to be expected.
I think the Assault Squad kit in the FLGS back when I was still in the States was $40, but that might have been the Vanguard Vets box (then again, I think that box was more expensive). Since we've lost all point of reference here, I just want to remind people how much content they are paying for, and compare that to the appropriate point of reference. If ~$1 per model is too much for some people, it is too much for them. There can be no arguing that.
While I'm not gonna just throw my money away for those boxes right now, I'd say that when you compare the price of the new 5-men squad to the old 5-men squad, it is not a huge hike.
Blacksails wrote: Oh, and I asked this another thread, but for the people who think the new kit is priced fairly, or at least still worth buying in your eyes, at what price point would you not buy it?
I think the price is high, but not out of bounds yet. I cringed a little at the last two boxes of veterans, both the vanguard and the sternguard (at $40 and $50 respectively). The sternguard, at $10/per model was rough for plastic minis, but the sprues were packed with extra awesome bits. The $8 each vanguard also provided many weapons and shoulder pads to my army, and generated a JP captain. Considering what GW prices HQs at, that helped a lot to justify the box. So those boxes not only provided the units inside, but helped bling out my sergeants and make a HQ, some honor guard, deathwatch, etc. So if the kit is nice enough (which I admit is totally subjective) I’ll pay up to (and maybe slightly over) $10 a model.
Now the new assault marine box cost the same as the vanguard vets. That’s a pretty rough matchup. What does it offer?
Spare torsos? I’m limited by legs, so extra torsos don’t do me a whole lot of good.
Weapon options? I’ve got a lot of spare flamers, and the VV is a treasure trove of CC weapons. It’s got the evisorator, an exclusive bit. So that’s something.
Sculpted bases? OK, these are kinda nice. I’ve got the scouts from the back of my LSS I was going to put on normal bases, these might give them something to sit on, as their poses are a little off.
Possible legs? These look nice. Dynamic poses are worth a bit.
Tactical marine are $4 each, which is not a bad price. Is the addition of the jump pack worth doubling the cost of a mini? I don’t really think so. Is is so overpriced that it goes from “cringe and buy” to “pass”? Nope. I’m going to buy a box. Would I do it at $50? Probably not. So at least for me, GW has not priced me out. Yet.
It helps that I’ve got projects in mind for a box of assault marines. One of my projects for the last year was to upgrade my old sergeants to better gear options, and more importantly, magnets. I’d not done my assault squads due to lack of parts. So even before the new kit dropped, I had a box of AMs on my things to get list. I also need one more vanguard vet to fill out a 10 man squad. So one of these guys is getting tapped up for that. So that’s 3/5 of the box right there I need. I’ve also got my eye on the UM upgrade frame, with plans to make a new foot captain, and probably a counts-as sicarius as well. Using AM parts here will look much better then the normal "standing around yelling pose" that most foot captains do.
The answer, of course, is not simple. In 1990, if a 5-man kit were $50, sticker shock would have made me go ZOMG and do something else, like take my then-girlfriend on a nice dinner. In 2015, it's not sticker shock anymore. Then again, I would have never paid $15 for movie ticket back then either, or $12 for a popcorn and drink, or $130 for a videogame with a season pass that I got bored with before the first DLC came out. So the lesson is, ease in the price increases.
Now, specific to the ASM kit. I think it went from USD $33 -> USD $42. Not to sound like a dick, but $9 doesn't even get me a decent fast food meal anymore, so if I want something at $33, I'll certainly pay for it at $42. GW probably knows this. I think psychologically, $50 for a box of 5 ($10 per miniature) is probably significant, and $50 after my discount (just call it $65) would probably be another psychological barrier. At $100, it would be a no-go, for sure, I think. Partly, I have too many assault marines and ASM bits and BA parts that can be used as ASM (Sanguinary, Death Company) than I know what to do with anyhow.
I should also point out that with the ASM box, I add $5 of value to the kit because of the scenic bases. I happily give SWM $13.50-$15 for 10 32mm scenic bases, so I have no problem paying $1 more for a model that comes with a scenic base. Of course, I would be happier if GW sold a Scenic base sprue for $16 / 10 bases.
But let's put aside ASM and let's say they create a cool new power armor unit called a Xipher Squad, a power armored 32mm base model that was just really cool. How much would I pay for THAT? Well, now, that is a much harder question. I didn't blink at paying $80 for 3 centurions (I bought 2 boxes, actually). I even bought the ugly $70 robots. I paid $70 to get Borka on the bear (from Privateer Press), at $35 for Bradigus, a really crappy value model, got multiple Harlequin characters, and all that. But I don't want to buy only death jesters at death jester prices, because I like hacking models up, and I don't want to hack up a $30 model. Frankly, this is one of the reasons I buy a lot less Privateer Press -- they don't have multimodel boxes with an abundance of spare bits. If they did, they'd get a lot of my spending. But anyways.
So, would I pay $100 USD for new assault marines, even if they were awesome? No, I don't think so. Would I pay $100 USD for a brand new squad that I thought was super duper awesome? Probably. But this wouldn't be a good move on GW's part anyhow. At $50, I would probably buy 3 of the brand new super duper squad (or as many boxes as I might field); at $100, I would probably just buy 1 to own something I really want. Since the profit margin on those models is probably so high that the cost is negligible; therefore GW's correct pricing formula is to price it as high as people would pay per unit multiplied by the maximum number of boxes they would buy. It's like charging a little for supersized fries or a giant soft drink -- it's just extra profit, because the cost is barely a rounding error.
You could actually say the same thing about ASM. If they kept it at $35, I would buy as many as was useful. Instead, I'm buying 2, and might buy another 1 or 2, if it turns out that it's useful to do so from a gaming perspective (which it probably won't be).
Well, there a lot of things I can say about you Talys, but your brevity is not one of those things
Thanks for the thought out response. I now have a good window into your self admitted alternate reality, and while I think even $50 for a kit from GW is high, I least understand why'd you theoretically pay $100 for 5 figures.
Spoiler:
lcmiracle wrote:At around $5.5 per model for TAC squad (and the all the extra bits added won't matter because I always get spare parts anyways, it's the torsos and legs that matters). And twice the price for any specialist squads. At this point for me is the point to quit, because the Assault marine box would be well over $50 and that's at least $10 more.
This is, of course, disregarding inflation. Obviously if I work the same job and made $10/hr yesterday got a $.5/hr increase simply because of inflation that actually makes it just a slightly more expensive.
Yeah, inflation aside, it would make the point too complicated. I struggle to count past 10 and do basic addition let alone percentages.
Sounds reasonable anyways. For that price though, I'd expect every single weapon option in the appropriate multiples allowed by the rules too.
Spoiler:
Nevelon wrote:
I think the price is high, but not out of bounds yet. I cringed a little at the last two boxes of veterans, both the vanguard and the sternguard (at $40 and $50 respectively). The sternguard, at $10/per model was rough for plastic minis, but the sprues were packed with extra awesome bits. The $8 each vanguard also provided many weapons and shoulder pads to my army, and generated a JP captain. Considering what GW prices HQs at, that helped a lot to justify the box. So those boxes not only provided the units inside, but helped bling out my sergeants and make a HQ, some honor guard, deathwatch, etc. So if the kit is nice enough (which I admit is totally subjective) I’ll pay up to (and maybe slightly over) $10 a model.
Now the new assault marine box cost the same as the vanguard vets. That’s a pretty rough matchup. What does it offer?
Spare torsos? I’m limited by legs, so extra torsos don’t do me a whole lot of good.
Weapon options? I’ve got a lot of spare flamers, and the VV is a treasure trove of CC weapons. It’s got the evisorator, an exclusive bit. So that’s something.
Sculpted bases? OK, these are kinda nice. I’ve got the scouts from the back of my LSS I was going to put on normal bases, these might give them something to sit on, as their poses are a little off.
Possible legs? These look nice. Dynamic poses are worth a bit.
Tactical marine are $4 each, which is not a bad price. Is the addition of the jump pack worth doubling the cost of a mini? I don’t really think so. Is is so overpriced that it goes from “cringe and buy” to “pass”? Nope. I’m going to buy a box. Would I do it at $50? Probably not. So at least for me, GW has not priced me out. Yet.
It helps that I’ve got projects in mind for a box of assault marines. One of my projects for the last year was to upgrade my old sergeants to better gear options, and more importantly, magnets. I’d not done my assault squads due to lack of parts. So even before the new kit dropped, I had a box of AMs on my things to get list. I also need one more vanguard vet to fill out a 10 man squad. So one of these guys is getting tapped up for that. So that’s 3/5 of the box right there I need. I’ve also got my eye on the UM upgrade frame, with plans to make a new foot captain, and probably a counts-as sicarius as well. Using AM parts here will look much better then the normal "standing around yelling pose" that most foot captains do.
Fair enough. Thanks for the detailed response.
*Edit* Also, spoilers are dope. Winners use spoilers, amirite?
*More editing* Seriously, look how pretty that looks!
Blacksails wrote: Well, there a lot of things I can say about you Talys, but your brevity is not one of those things
Thanks for the thought out response. I now have a good window into your self admitted alternate reality, and while I think even $50 for a kit from GW is high, I least understand why'd you theoretically pay $100 for 5 figures.
A good question demands a good answer!
By the way, the alternate reality thing was a joke, lol. But anyhow, I DO think $50 for a 5-man kit from anyone is high. That wasn't your question though -- it was how high I was willing to pay. I buy all sorts of things I think are overpriced all the time :X
On most of the models in the new kit, I certainly can't see much meaningul qualitative difference between them and the old ones (if any at all), you get a little more dynamic posing, and that's about it. That's simply not going to do it for most people. I certainly wouldn't be rushing out to buy any of these.
darkcloak wrote: $98 Canadian for 10 dudes... That is more than $10 per mini, the 5 man kit being slightly more expensive.
Holy fuckety feth feth....
The minis look the same even!
Who wants to bet that those Chapter Upgrade sprues are about to herald the end of faction specific Tac kits? Oh what's that you say? They just released a Tac kit for BA? Yeah okay. That's a valid point... :looks at 6th ed Knight codex:
1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either.
That's a nearly 25% increase, that's plenty high enough to justify the sort of reaction we're seeing for many, especially when many didn't see anything wrong with the older kit.
I had the same reaction with the new Mechanicus character that just came out. At $36, I can't justify picking one up just because I liked the model. Seven or so years ago, such a character would have been ~$15. Now most are ~$25, and at $36? Just can't do it.
My impulse buying days are long gone with what GW charges, and that was really what accounted for most of my purchasing.
Azreal13 wrote: No Talys, you may joke about your "alternate reality" some others of us are... less jocular?
Yeah, you know, one where friends actually still enjoy getting together in a basement to play wargames with each other a few times a month, and where folks don't really mind spending fifty to a hundred bucks on entertainment! Shocking, huh?
That's a nearly 25% increase, that's plenty high enough to justify the sort of reaction we're seeing for many, especially when many didn't see anything wrong with the older kit.
We go in circles about this -- but if you see the new kit as essentially the same as the old kit, then, yes, a 25% increase is unjustified. On the other hand, if you look at the new kit as a NEW kit (not just game pieces, but new models), and think that the new models are 25% better, then it is justified. Right?
As I've said, in real dollars, it went up from $33 - $41 USD. $8. Since I typically buy a scenic base OR spend time doing a nice custom base, the scenic base alone is worth at least $1 each base (about $15 for 10 at SWM), so the real difference is $3 per 5 models for me. If they did nothing but make posable legs and add scenic bases, it would have justified $8 / box of 5. Now, if you don't want all that stuff, and you just want a game piece that's a marine in a jump pack, and you don't get excited about an eviscerator that's now on a model other than Gabriel Seth... your point of view is absolutely correct, and that kit is clearly not being produced with you in mind.
But then again, if you already have enough ASMs, and new models don't get you excited, why would you ever buy another ASM box, regardless of whether the price went up or not?
I really do want a lot of the parts in that box but i think they have priced me out.
shame too i think the new parts are all bitchin.
I'm in the same boat. I already have what Assault Marines I'm going to ever use anyways, but I could see picking up bits for conversion. I definitely think some of it looks good.
I believe the sentiment that has to be taken is practicality. The hobby is simply a way to pass the time and entertain yourself. Anything that moves the needle in the 'no longer entertained' camp seals it; without a gripe I gave up on buying Dungeons and Dragons books around 4th edition. After 20 years of serious play, no hard feelings, no nothing. I still occasionally engage in the hobby without further spending on my part.
The hobby is still phenomenal to me and all other miniature games lack many thing that GW does right.
Makumba wrote: but anyone under 18 or under 27 if he goes to an uni can get a "rig" refunded from the EU program for students.
O_O wot!
The are programs by EU, that let you do it. All you need to do is write some stuff they can review and if your living in some areas you don't even have to do that. And it works for a lot of stuff, there is a cultural program that supports people in rural areas. One guy got papers that he his official living place is his grandmothers house in eastern Poland, and every year he has to write a review with pictures of him playing w40k and WFB, and how helps him to spread culture around , and for that EU pays for his armies.
The same goes for PCs, you just have to say you want to work on design and send them plans of projects you want to do and you can get up to 100% return , some of it from EU some of it from local and central goverment.The only thing you can't do with them is sell them back. But even that can be avoided. You just have to get papers to be officialy living in a place where there was a flood or something like that , and report the rig as destoryed. This way next year you can get a new one. And because in english last times for males and females stay the same, and in slavic language they do not. If you have a brother or sister you can get two or more every year, raport one as destroyed another one as stolen , next year do it other way around and the people that are checking won't know that the family is the same, and offcialy your living in different places so your covered there too.
Mavnas wrote: You know... if trends continue, Sisters of Battle will keep not getting an update and eventually be one of the cheaper armies to pick up.
If you check at different shops in your travels, you often see sisters blisters on sale for pretty cheap.
This, however, is one of those cases for me where I scream, "TAKE MY DAMN MONEY". Just give us new plastic sisters for f's sake.
So how exactly are they so different that "A blind man with a stick could grope his way to the differences between them."? I have some of the old Assault Marines and they don't appear to have changed that much. What new options do they have besides the eviserator chainsword? Grav pistols? My Sternguard supplied me with those.
Basically, right now my FLGS has an older Assault Marine kit for $39.50 and a Skyclaw kit for $34. I'm much more tempted to save myself 24 bucks (before tax) and pick those up.
Then again, I also find myself wondering if I need more Assault Marines...
There is the counter point however, that if you buy 2 of the new AM kits (yes I did say two) and have 10 tacticals or older type marines lying around, you get enough bits in both boxes to make a full 10 man AM squad with weapons and jump packs and then a 10 man foot based AM unit with weapons.
That gives you 20 AMs for €66. Thats not half bad to be fair.
Granted it means two boxes and some older models to kitbash but for me thats not horrific.
When was the last time assault marines were actualy used in sm lists, because I had to have been before 5th ed. Only assault marines I did see since I started to play were BA ones, and more offten then not they werent wearin jump packs.
Makumba wrote: When was the last time assault marines were actualy used in sm lists, because I had to have been before 5th ed. Only assault marines I did see since I started to play were BA ones, and more offten then not they werent wearin jump packs.
I field mine semi-reguarly. Normally just a 5 man stick with a pair of flamers and a vet sarge. If I’m using pods, odds are they are riding one, but I don’t do that all the time. Still work well with the jump packs.
So glad I am starting to edge away from GW and go with alternate models in my gaming group. My next almost all infantry IG army is being done with the fantastic bulk Warlord Bolt Action minis. 3 Boxes worth but still...
Is a FW squad of ten marines cheaper yet than GW marines? I think I will go look just for S&Gs.
I know we have said it many times in the past, but is GW trying to price itself out of the market?
Makumba wrote: When was the last time assault marines were actualy used in sm lists, because I had to have been before 5th ed. Only assault marines I did see since I started to play were BA ones, and more offten then not they werent wearin jump packs.
I field mine semi-reguarly. Normally just a 5 man stick with a pair of flamers and a vet sarge. If I’m using pods, odds are they are riding one, but I don’t do that all the time. Still work well with the jump packs.
But you can take bikers with flamers or strenguad with heavy flamers. Plus flamers are rather bad against anything other then IG, and sm don't need flamers to demolish IG armies. What are two flamers going to do something like orks, even if they jump out of a pod. They kill 7 or 8 boys and then get charged by a 60 sized super mob.
Makumba wrote: When was the last time assault marines were actualy used in sm lists, because I had to have been before 5th ed. Only assault marines I did see since I started to play were BA ones, and more offten then not they werent wearin jump packs.
I field mine semi-reguarly. Normally just a 5 man stick with a pair of flamers and a vet sarge. If I’m using pods, odds are they are riding one, but I don’t do that all the time. Still work well with the jump packs.
But you can take bikers with flamers or strenguad with heavy flamers. Plus flamers are rather bad against anything other then IG, and sm don't need flamers to demolish IG armies. What are two flamers going to do something like orks, even if they jump out of a pod. They kill 7 or 8 boys and then get charged by a 60 sized super mob.
Assault marines are a bully unit. You find something weaker then you, and go pound them. If you are tangling with a full green tide (without help) you are doing it wrong. Pathfinders, Dev squads, havoks, minimum objective campers. Those are your targets. Two games ago I took a full 10 man unit. Slammed into a 20 man necron warrior squad. Killed and swept them. Could I have done this with bikes? Maybe. Shooting? nope.
I’ll admit that in general, bikes are better then assault marines. I’m blessed with a local meta that’s not hyper competitive and cut-thought. So I can take units I think are cool, and still do OK with them.
Flamers have some perks. Wall of Death, No Escape. Ignores cover. They cost next to nothing, and I find that it’s worth including them, even though they cost me a CC attack. But generally they kill more then one swing would do anyway. You have the speed with the jump pack to get the template placed right where you want, so can generally catch a good number under the template.
I've never really bought into the idea of GW pricing too much. But honestly, I can't see people buying this. 10 assault marines are now worth 20 guardsmen and a chimera if you by the combined set and a normal guard box.
Why GW, why?
Every time I start to think 
