As a Chaos Player who began the hobby less than a year ago, I have grown to love my CSM force. I learned how to play at my FLGS and have continued to attend tournaments there and enjoy every minute of it. I learned on these forums about dataslates, researched them, and got the Helbrute Dataslate. This is awesome <snip>. I go in one day to buy paint or some such thing and talk to the store owner and he informs me that They do not allow any electronic gaming aids whatsoever. They also do not allow print outs of said items. In other words, Belakor, Cypher, and all other data slate formations can not be run at the FLGS. While these items are not the reason I am not sweeping the tournaments, and they are not total game changers, I was wondering if anyone else had similar experiences. I still love going there, I am sure they have their reason, of which I have no idea. I was wondering if this is a thing only here, or is this the norm.
They allow FW into the unbound tournaments, which is cool, but then why can't I use my helbrute dataslate and bring in 3 brutes via deepstrike and let them finally be able to tear some shizzle up?
Thoughts?
Edit by Janthkin; some similes just don't need to be included.
Well, that's their prerogative. It's also yours for whether that will impact how you purchase and attend there. Either the FLGS is losing some potential revenue by not allowing these (If you were allowed it, would you buy more Helbrutes? Maybe!) or they know their customer base well enough that they are confident allowing such things may actually lead to a decrease in sales as players get upset and leave the hobby, or get used to making more online purchases rather than in-store purchases.
Personally, I think the FLGS is shooting themselves in the foot. I don't understand why you wouldn't allow electronic aids and other such supplements/dataslates.
There's so much that's weird about this situation I can't help but feel you've misinterpreted something. It's either that or whoever makes the rules for this store maybe has problems with reasoning.
Why ban dataslates but allow FW? What's the reasoning for the distinction there? FW has a great many things that are "dataslates" in all but name, after all.
Some armies have dataslates - some do not. Are they aware that a blanket ban on those hurts some players more than others?
What is an "electronic gaming aid"? A calculator? A rulebook on a tablet? And then why ban their usage? Do they think having the ability to use technology for convenience gives you an unfair advantage somehow?
To your question, I've heard of many people calling for bans on many things, but dataslates specifically is one I have not heard before.
Run this example
1.have an imperial assassin as a main staple of your list
2.say that his rules are either a dataslate, in a white dwarf (of which you do not have) or a pdf of that white dwarf
3.say you have the dataslate/pdf
4.watch their faces as you say that to play a game you HAVE to take the assassin
5.field the assassin
6.???
7.profit
They probably had some problems in the past. Each meta is different. Look on the bright side - you needn't worry about Skyhammer!
In my Meta, I played an allied game (my Harlies + someone's CWE vs Bugs/Bugs). I deploy and move based on knowing that my ally's Scytheguard will *destroy* the venomthropes with ease. They pop out and shoot. And then I find out they're using 6E Scythes. I'm glad they were, as its more fair! But my point is metas sometimes do some odd things, and it might disadvantage you, but it may be a good thing on the whole.
To Answer the questions, no I am not mis-interpreting. I am not either trying to call out the Owner as he is an awesome guy, and his wife and kid works there as well, and are always friendly. I was just wondering if this was normal as I am fairly new to this game. As far as electronic gaming aids, the rule is nothing that allows PDFs or electronic Codexs. I understand not allowing electronic versions of stuff that you can buy from them instead, that makes sense to me. Pay where you Play IMO. But the other rule is the one that I was wondering about.
I can understand the aversion to some of the dataslates and digital content, but at this point it's basically a losing battle to ban it.
If you want to be really passive aggressive about it, bring an army of Sisters with an Inquisitorial detachment as allies and an assassin. Very fluffy, not overpowered, 100% digital content.
redleger wrote: To Answer the questions, no I am not mis-interpreting. I am not either trying to call out the Owner as he is an awesome guy, and his wife and kid works there as well, and are always friendly. I was just wondering if this was normal as I am fairly new to this game. As far as electronic gaming aids, the rule is nothing that allows PDFs or electronic Codexs. I understand not allowing electronic versions of stuff that you can buy from them instead, that makes sense to me. Pay where you Play IMO. But the other rule is the one that I was wondering about.
Doesn't sound very friendly at all. These rules continue to make no sense. I've never, ever heard of a FLGS that says you can only play with physical books you bought at the store itself. That's downright ridiculous. Do they make you only play with models you bought from them as well? What the actual feth.
Between banning some parts of the game and not others for no definitive reason, and this startling revelation, it sounds like a really dumb place to go and play to me. My FLGS lets the players decide how they want to play their game, and DEFINITELY doesn't force you to use material you bought from them when you play there.
Not saying it has to be books you bought from them, obviously if you move to town, that would be kinda silly. But it would make sense to me to provide incentive to buy from them. Dataslates are not possible to buy from them though, hence the issue.
It might be a business thing("We can't sell Digital Products, so don't use them here") or it might be a worry about liability(ex: someone loses their device there).
redleger wrote: Not saying it has to be books you bought from them, obviously if you move to town, that would be kinda silly. But it would make sense to me to provide incentive to buy from them. Dataslates are not possible to buy from them though, hence the issue.
You say it is an issue, but the issue is fully on the owner's end. You may call him a nice guy, but this rule is absolutely ridiculous and makes not a single lick of sense.
redleger wrote: Not saying it has to be books you bought from them, obviously if you move to town, that would be kinda silly. But it would make sense to me to provide incentive to buy from them. Dataslates are not possible to buy from them though, hence the issue.
How does this create an incentive to buy from them?
Say I already own a digital codex - am I going to buy it again, and a more expensive version of it at that, just so I can play it at this one store that isn't cool with it otherwise? Obviously not.
Say I didn't own a digital or physical codex. If I prefer physical copies, I was going to buy one anyway. Their ridiculous rule doesn't play in to my purchase at all.
The ONLY thing it's doing is punishing a subset of players for their preference - or their inability to afford physical books. How is that fair?
To say nothing of those players who only have a digital codex. I play Sisters and I would be downright forbidden to play at the OP's store because of the stupidity of the owner.
Desubot wrote: Some people are traditionalists and do not want to propagate electronic devices
Hell i hate it when people stare at the phones 24/7
IIRC a lot of places did the same thing when fire in the sky or whatever the air battle sup came out because it was direct order only.
So it's a bizarre, backwards "social justice" thing? Like my using an iPad instead of a book is affecting you in ANY way. Would you have turned me down for a game in prehistory because I was using that newfangled "paper" instead of a good, solid hunk of chiseled rock? All these kids with their noses in books, not like the old days when we had the priest read to us.
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curran12 wrote: To say nothing of those players who only have a digital codex. I play Sisters and I would be downright forbidden to play at the OP's store because of the stupidity of the owner.
Desubot wrote: Some people are traditionalists and do not want to propagate electronic devices
Hell i hate it when people stare at the phones 24/7
IIRC a lot of places did the same thing when fire in the sky or whatever the air battle sup came out because it was direct order only.
So it's a bizarre, backwards "social justice" thing? Like my using an iPad instead of a book is affecting you in ANY way. Would you have turned me down for a game in prehistory because I was using that newfangled "paper" instead of a good, solid hunk of chiseled rock? All these kids with their noses in books, not like the old days when we had the priest read to us.
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curran12 wrote: To say nothing of those players who only have a digital codex. I play Sisters and I would be downright forbidden to play at the OP's store because of the stupidity of the owner.
This x1000. Hilariously, indisputably unfair.
When did i say i wouldn't play people with digital stuff.
Hell i have a bunch of digital dexs my self...
I still hate people that over use there electronic device.
Desubot wrote: Some people are traditionalists and do not want to propagate electronic devices
Hell i hate it when people stare at the phones 24/7
IIRC a lot of places did the same thing when fire in the sky or whatever the air battle sup came out because it was direct order only.
So it's a bizarre, backwards "social justice" thing? Like my using an iPad instead of a book is affecting you in ANY way. Would you have turned me down for a game in prehistory because I was using that newfangled "paper" instead of a good, solid hunk of chiseled rock? All these kids with their noses in books, not like the old days when we had the priest read to us.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote: To say nothing of those players who only have a digital codex. I play Sisters and I would be downright forbidden to play at the OP's store because of the stupidity of the owner.
This x1000. Hilariously, indisputably unfair.
When did i say i wouldn't play people with digital stuff.
Hell i have a bunch of digital dexs my self...
I still hate people that over use there electronic device.
Fair enough. I incorrectly inferred that you supported the position by stating it. My bad.
It does grind my gears when people posit "tradition" as a justification for being needlessly antagonistic about somebody's choices or lifestyle.
FWIW, I'm with you on the overuse of devices. Like those people that record the concert they're at on their phone, drives me insane. WHY ARE YOU HERE?
redleger wrote: As a Chaos Player who began the hobby less than a year ago, I have grown to love my CSM force. I learned how to play at my FLGS and have continued to attend tournaments there and enjoy every minute of it. I learned on these forums about dataslates, researched them, and got the Helbrute Dataslate. This is awesome. I go in one day to buy paint or some such thing and talk to the store owner and he informs me that They do not allow any electronic gaming aids whatsoever. They also do not allow print outs of said items. In other words, Belakor, Cypher, and all other data slate formations can not be run at the FLGS. While these items are not the reason I am not sweeping the tournaments, and they are not total game changers, I was wondering if anyone else had similar experiences. I still love going there, I am sure they have their reason, of which I have no idea. I was wondering if this is a thing only here, or is this the norm.
They allow FW into the unbound tournaments, which is cool, but then why can't I use my helbrute dataslate and bring in 3 brutes via deepstrike and let them finally be able to tear some shizzle up?
Thoughts?
Are you sure the owner understands the concept of dataslates and doesn't just get them confused with pirated codexes? What did he answer when you asked him "why" he is banning electronic aids and print-outs?
Considering there are quite a few games that solely distribute their army lists and rules digitally, this really seems like a very silly house-rule. I gather he also doesn't allow FAQs and errate that are provided digitally?
redleger wrote: As a Chaos Player who began the hobby less than a year ago, I have grown to love my CSM force. I learned how to play at my FLGS and have continued to attend tournaments there and enjoy every minute of it. I learned on these forums about dataslates, researched them, and got the Helbrute Dataslate. This is awesome. I go in one day to buy paint or some such thing and talk to the store owner and he informs me that They do not allow any electronic gaming aids whatsoever. They also do not allow print outs of said items. In other words, Belakor, Cypher, and all other data slate formations can not be run at the FLGS. While these items are not the reason I am not sweeping the tournaments, and they are not total game changers, I was wondering if anyone else had similar experiences. I still love going there, I am sure they have their reason, of which I have no idea. I was wondering if this is a thing only here, or is this the norm.
They allow FW into the unbound tournaments, which is cool, but then why can't I use my helbrute dataslate and bring in 3 brutes via deepstrike and let them finally be able to tear some shizzle up?
Thoughts?
Are you sure the owner understands the concept of dataslates and doesn't just get them confused with pirated codexes? What did he answer when you asked him "why" he is banning electronic aids and print-outs?
Considering there are quite a few games that solely distribute their army lists and rules digitally, this really seems like a very silly house-rule. I gather he also doesn't allow FAQs and errate that are provided digitally?
Good Question, Hasn't come up. I just use the Erata rules for instance Helbrute is now 100 pts vs the 105 in the book. I agree it sucks though. Im not sticking up for his decision. It is the only shop in town though. I didn't know sisters was digital only, might explain why I never see sisters played at the store. I would buy his Helbrute that has been on the shelf since I discovered the place if the dataslate were authorized and run the 3 HB formation in most games, or even the Helcult as its pretty decent for lower point games. Ill keep asking him, but I am not sure about him changing his mind.
Personally, I think the FLGS is shooting themselves in the foot. I don't understand why you wouldn't allow electronic aids and other such supplements/dataslates.
This, especially with regards to Erratas / FAQs. Those can be pretty critical in some situations.
This is hilariously misguided and bullheadedly stupid. If my FLGS started doing this I would loudly voice my opinion on the idiocy of the policy and immediately announce that I would be seeking a new store to support with my business, and try to sway as many other players to follow me as possible.
Ultimately you have to decide what you are willing to tolerate as a consumer.
If you really like using certain things and your store/group doesn't want you to, then find another place to play. You may actually find a better group in the process.
A number of stores in my region have overly restrictive/wonky tournament house rules (imho). I asked if I could field certain things and they said no. No worries, I took my models and my purchasing dollars elsewhere.
redleger wrote: OK, so my question is answered. This is not normal practice.
No, not at all.
By the way, ITC tournament format (which is relatively restrictive) - "All current source material is allowed, including GW Codexes, Data Slates, Formations, and current Forge World units and army lists which are listed below. Please note, Experimental and Horus Heresy/30K Forge World units are not allowed. "
The OP made a somewhat questionable simile that included a racial slur against those of middle eastern decent, typically used in reference to those of the Islamic faith.
That bit was edited out of the OP, but another poster quoted the OP in its entirety pre-edit, and as of this post that quote is still in-tact.
Not judging the OP, or MODs for doing their job either. The original simile got an eyebrow raise from me I'll admit, and I'm not surprised it was edited.
I have a 2k LoTD army, if he told me I wasn't allowed to use the codex because it's electronic (and presumably because he couldn't sell it to me). I'd leave and take my hobby money elsewhere.
As a sisters player, who often uses an inquisitor, I find this once in a while when traveling and looking for an out of town game. Silly.
I have offered to update my sisters dex on the spot for the store manager. Didnt help.
One of my local stores allows a club to host tourneys there. The originally had this same policy. I rented two tables in the middle of the store. Pushed them together and played apoc sisters vs daemons right through the tourney. It got the point across.
dracpanzer wrote: As a sisters player, who often uses an inquisitor, I find this once in a while when traveling and looking for an out of town game. Silly.
I have offered to update my sisters dex on the spot for the store manager. Didnt help.
One of my local stores allows a club to host tourneys there. The originally had this same policy. I rented two tables in the middle of the store. Pushed them together and played apoc sisters vs daemons right through the tourney. It got the point across.
As a sisters player... I don't know what point that is supposed to get across ._. That you have a lot of Sisters models?
dracpanzer wrote: As a sisters player, who often uses an inquisitor, I find this once in a while when traveling and looking for an out of town game. Silly.
I have offered to update my sisters dex on the spot for the store manager. Didnt help.
One of my local stores allows a club to host tourneys there. The originally had this same policy. I rented two tables in the middle of the store. Pushed them together and played apoc sisters vs daemons right through the tourney. It got the point across.
As a sisters player... I don't know what point that is supposed to get across ._. That you have a lot of Sisters models?
Probably that an Apocalypse army of SoB has a lot of expensive models, and anyone who can afford that many models would probably be willing to spend money at the local store.
redleger wrote: OK, so my question is answered. This is not normal practice.
I wouldn't say it's not normal for a FLGS to come up with house rules, though it is odd that this guy is cool with Forgeworld yet has it out for digital content. Either way, it's more than likely that this houserule was created back when we saw the first few formations (the Tau one that seemed super OP at the time as well as the tyranid ones (skyblight in particular)), as well as Belakor, etc. People were most likely freaking out because Tau were already considered top tier and got a huge boost without paying for it, and they figured "screw this digital crap." Made total sense (kinda) because only a few armies got a shot in the arm...initially...
What they need to realize is that now, almost all of the playable armies can and do benefit from all sorts of "other" content. Everything is getting closer to being balanced because of the non-codex materials.
Were I you, I'd see if there are any other players that would like to play the way you'd like to play and, when playing each other, use whatever sources you'd like. What's the FLGS owner going to do? Kick you out for playing the way you both want to play? Maybe a few people, one game at a time, can introduce modern 40k to those who are still resistant and break down these hard to overcome, self imposed barriers.
Red__Thirst wrote: The OP made a somewhat questionable simile that included a racial slur against those of middle eastern decent, typically used in reference to those of the Islamic faith.
That bit was edited out of the OP, but another poster quoted the OP in its entirety pre-edit, and as of this post that quote is still in-tact.
Not judging the OP, or MODs for doing their job either. The original simile got an eyebrow raise from me I'll admit, and I'm not surprised it was edited.
Rule #1 folks. Rule #1.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I apologize if I hurt your feelings or to anyone else who may have gotten upset over my normal use of a simile in my current environment. I sometimes forget my audience.
As a sisters player... I don't know what point that is supposed to get across ._. That you have a lot of Sisters models?
Probably that an Apocalypse army of SoB has a lot of expensive models, and anyone who can afford that many models would probably be willing to spend money at the local store.
Exactly that, though the point that 40k could be played on the premises without being involved with their rule that digital dex/dataslates were not allowed in their events is what I was going for.
In my opinion the position they held that i could have hacked the file was invalid the moment I offered to download the file on the spot.
The store policy is ridiculous and is an example of a small business thinking they're helping themselves when they're really just hurting their bottom line.
Probably off topic, but in FLGS were a lot of people have digital codex, how do the owners check if what people have is actual stuff bought from GW and not downloaded stuff?
Makumba wrote: Probably off topic, but in FLGS were a lot of people have digital codex, how do the owners check if what people have is actual stuff bought from GW and not downloaded stuff?
There is no real way without being intrusive.
easy way is just ask for the black library email receipt. Or log into black library under your account under your downloads to see whats available.
Makumba wrote: Probably off topic, but in FLGS were a lot of people have digital codex, how do the owners check if what people have is actual stuff bought from GW and not downloaded stuff?
Excellent question. Personally, I buy something at the store every time I use their space, because I want my FLGS to be there for me and my community. Whether or not I we a digital download has no baring on what I spend at the store.
Makumba wrote: Probably off topic, but in FLGS were a lot of people have digital codex, how do the owners check if what people have is actual stuff bought from GW and not downloaded stuff?
There is no real way without being intrusive.
easy way is just ask for the black library email receipt. Or log into black library under your account under your downloads to see whats available.
not sure of Eye devices.
So there is no real way to check it then. I kind of understand why the shop owner may not like digital stuff then.
And if someone is buying the codex from some place else and the store owner can't check, if it is even legal or not, then he may feel riped off. Unless you pay for game time or something.
Question to the OP: Is this digital ban only for the tournaments at the store, or is it a wide-spread ban that the owner expects to encompass all games that take place there? It is possible that the formal will lead to the latter, but just wondering how far this guy's personal feelings are handcuffing his player population.
I don't see why the FLGS store owner should care if you bought a given item direct from GW or if you obtained it in some other way. How does that affect them at all?
Should we also disclose which miniatures we bought on ebay or traded from friends or assembled from extra bitz in excess of the amount of models advertised on a kit's box?
And should those things thereby be barred from use?
Voidwraith wrote: Question to the OP: Is this digital ban only for the tournaments at the store, or is it a wide-spread ban that the owner expects to encompass all games that take place there? It is possible that the formal will lead to the latter, but just wondering how far this guy's personal feelings are handcuffing his player population.
I usually only go in there to play in tournaments, but I do know the Ban on Codex's is store wide. I am sure if I was playing on a casual Sunday and ran a Helcult, he would be none the wiser but his store, his rules so I don't even attempt it. The main point of this post was to get a consensus on whether this was normal or not, as this is my first time delving into mini wargaming, as I played MTG prior. I will engage him again on the subject but I am pretty sure he is rock solid in his point of view.
Voidwraith wrote: Question to the OP: Is this digital ban only for the tournaments at the store, or is it a wide-spread ban that the owner expects to encompass all games that take place there? It is possible that the formal will lead to the latter, but just wondering how far this guy's personal feelings are handcuffing his player population.
I usually only go in there to play in tournaments, but I do know the Ban on Codex's is store wide. I am sure if I was playing on a casual Sunday and ran a Helcult, he would be none the wiser but his store, his rules so I don't even attempt it. The main point of this post was to get a consensus on whether this was normal or not, as this is my first time delving into mini wargaming, as I played MTG prior. I will engage him again on the subject but I am pretty sure he is rock solid in his point of view.
Tell him you'll be taking your business elsewhere if he does not budge. His policy is odious and unnecessarily binding for no apparent benefit, and FLGSes tend to run narrow margins.
My FLGS has the same policy. When i asked about the reasoning behind it, there was a TFG who had gotten busted altering his electronic Codex to let him stomp newbies and those unfamiliar with his army. I'd dare say that might be a reasoning behind the situation at your store as well. Just another case of one *ahem* ruining it for everyone
But "normally" folks allow electronic codices and the like. Heck even in my FLGS with its "No electronic gaming aids" rule the owner only really enforces it in official functions. It might be worth it to ask if its okay for casual games.
I could also have a fake codex printed with altered rules and statlines by a print shop. That's a totally bogus reasoning and I don't buy it. Just ban the TFG and be done with it, don't punish every player in the world for the crap behavior of one person. Y'all have some seriously fethed up stores.
j31c3n wrote: I could also have a fake codex printed with altered rules and statlines by a print shop. That's a totally bogus reasoning and I don't buy it. Just ban the TFG and be done with it, don't punish every player in the world for the crap behavior of one person. Y'all have some seriously fethed up stores.
Seriously. While the shop owner has every right to restrict what people do on the tables, I have every right to not spend a dime there because his rules are bogus.
Ir0njack wrote: My FLGS has the same policy. When i asked about the reasoning behind it, there was a TFG who had gotten busted altering his electronic Codex to let him stomp newbies and those unfamiliar with his army. I'd dare say that might be a reasoning behind the situation at your store as well. Just another case of one *ahem* ruining it for everyone
But "normally" folks allow electronic codices and the like. Heck even in my FLGS with its "No electronic gaming aids" rule the owner only really enforces it in official functions. It might be worth it to ask if its okay for casual games.
WTF. No electronic gaming aids?! That sounds stupid
And I'm with Robisagg and j31c3n -- if someone wants to win so bad that they'll digitally alter the rules, they're probably capable of cheating many other ways too; don't play with them, kick them out, laugh at them and scorn their pettiness... but don't ruin it for everyone else.
Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments. Then again I've never been a fan of the digital codices and have never made a list with things from dataslates except for casual games so I'm probably biased in that regard.
Edit:
I just realized that OP and myself are talking about the same store lol. So yeah, that's the reason behind the rule. Owner is a reasonable guy, just ask him about the specifics of the rule.
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments. Then again I've never been a fan of the digital codices and have never made a list with things from dataslates except for casual games so I'm probably biased in that regard.
Edit: I just realized that OP and myself are talking about the same store lol. So yeah, that's the reason behind the rule. Owner is a reasonable guy, just ask him about the specifics of the rule.
I know he is a reasonable guy. I like him, I was wondering if this was the norm. Also, not being able to play two HQs and the only viable use from Helbrutes being from the dataslate is quite frustrating. Now that I know its not normal practice, its annoying but hey, where else am I gonna go to tournaments at. I would like to play Belakor at the 2500 point unbound next week, but its restricted due to dataslate. But another dude can bring his massive forge world stuff and thats cool. Guys are running skitari armies from the magazine and there is a special rule in there that is not even known yet, but thats cool. so its been eating at me.
Its understandable to be bothered by it, especially if you're losing out on units because of it. But its like you said, where else are we gonna play , only other shops I know of a almost in OKC. Best of lucky in the tourny though!
For skitarii do you mean the formation with the knight?
Desubot wrote: No you Can check them if you ask to see there Black library account as its tied to it.
The exception being I pad type things which should also have purchase histories.
ITs really easy to check if some one had downloaded something or purchased it.
ITs about how intrusive you want to get.
Then again just asking to see it shouldnt cause uproar from some one that bought the thing anyway.
yeah, the rules say one has to show the rules, not show your account gistory. Aside for tax police, I don't think there are many people that can force others to show their history and even they need a warrent for it. Unless it is a matter of national security or something.
How does that affect them at all?
Should we also disclose which miniatures we bought on ebay or traded from friends or assembled from extra bitz in excess of the amount of models advertised on a kit's box?
And should those things thereby be barred from use?
Well here it is more or less it. If a shop doesn't sell it, it won't let people use it. If it takes money away from them, because let say your buying inifnity and they don't sell it, they wont accept people playing or using the models. And it does affect them, each codex bought in digital form is one codex less bought from the store and if they are unable to check which one is the original and which one is a copy, then one digital sm codex could turn in to many unsold sm books.
As for ebay buying models goes, if the store owner suddenly sees someone with a 1500pts army you never used, they won't like it. They won't, probably , kick you out of the store, unless the models are recasts, but it may be harder to get a table to play or the time table to play may put you at strange hours or at times when you can play.
Those are all wonderful ways to ensure with 100% certainty that players adversely affected by those policies never buy anything else from that store again. No matter how y'all try to "justify" these insane rules, the only thing they accomplish is cutting off the store's nose to spite its face. They are bad for the store.
I love supporting my FLGS as much as anyone but if they enacted policies like these I'd be moving my (not insubstantial) purchasing elsewhere.
yeah, the rules say one has to show the rules, not show your account gistory. Aside for tax police, I don't think there are many people that can force others to show their history and even they need a warrent for it. Unless it is a matter of national security or something.
As there is no Rules saying an owner of a store has to let people play at there store.
Many places require proof of purchase for all sorts of things. so your point is entirely moot.
So what is needed is 50 or so Sisters players to all turn up, say 10 minute after each other, walk in ask for a game, show e-codex, take on the chin not being able to play, then walk out.
j31c3n wrote: Those are all wonderful ways to ensure with 100% certainty that players adversely affected by those policies never buy anything else from that store again. No matter how y'all try to "justify" these insane rules, the only thing they accomplish is cutting off the store's nose to spite its face. They are bad for the store.
I love supporting my FLGS as much as anyone but if they enacted policies like these I'd be moving my (not insubstantial) purchasing elsewhere.
Yeah a lot of these "I understand" type posts keep listing activities that kill gaming stores dead. I have a friend who owns a store and hosts many Magic events, board game players and mini game players regularly. He makes more money from the mini game players just being in the store playing games and buying sodas and snacks from him while they are there all weekend in a given month than he does selling minis for the games they are playing within the same month. He could moan and complain that people aren't buying their minis there, but even when they are he still makes money off of them just by having them in the store playing games. Dumbest thing he could do would be to give them a reason to stop playing there anymore.
The one that amuses me the most is the "checking the black library receipts" idea. Yeah if anyone has an LGS that has done that, please post up how that went. I am really curious because I don't expect it went well.
Yeah, requiring customers and players to show proof of purchase for an item like that is insane. It's all but directly accusing the player of theft (and it really walks the line of slander/defamation of character IMHO), and destroys the player/FLGS relationship. I cannot imagine even being asked to produce a receipt for something like that. Imagine if they asked to see your receipts for models that you'd purchased back in 2nd or 3rd edition just to "ensure" that they weren't skillful recasts or something equally absurd. Holy crap.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
1. Don't have to keep up to date on the somewhat excessive dataslate release schedule
2. Ban some of the more over the top sillyness in 40k 3. Don't have to support GW trying to take business from the FLGS 4. Pisses you off.
All seems like valid and good reason to ban them to me.
There's going to be some collateral damage with any manner of wide spread banning, and frankly, SOBs is a small price to pay in this guy's opinion.
Carnage43 wrote: 1. Don't have to keep up to date on the somewhat excessive dataslate release schedule
So ban all Space Marine armies, there you go you don't have to keep up with anything. Small price to pay, Space Marines are boring anyway. See, this is perfectly rational and not at all stupid!
Carnage43 wrote: 2. Ban some of the more over the top sillyness in 40k
Eldar: quod erat demonstrandum. The default GW stuff has most of the over the top silliness-- you're banning stuff that isn't actually over the top while leaving the over the top crap in. Not that logic appears to be the strong point of this store owner.
Carnage43 wrote: 3. Don't have to support GW trying to take business from the FLGS
No, instead they're pushing business to GW themselves like they're afraid of money.
1. Don't have to keep up to date on the somewhat excessive dataslate release schedule
2. Ban some of the more over the top sillyness in 40k 3. Don't have to support GW trying to take business from the FLGS 4. Pisses you off.
1. GW's "excessive" release schedule is not unique to dataslates. Hell, I just bought the 6th edition SM codex less than one year ago and I've already had to replace it. Previous editions had nothing on GW's new blistering pace. Banning dataslates won't help here.
2. Most of the "over the top silliness" in 40k is available in the basic printed codices. Tigurius with grav Centurions, Eldar scatterlaser spam, Necron Decurion, Skiitari and Cult Mechanicus Battle Maniple ... these things are all in physical codices available at any FLGS.
3. GW does perfectly well taking business from FLGSes all by themselves. This sort of blanket ban (or really any ban like this outside of a tournament is going to drive business from the FLGS to GW's webstore.
4. Wow. Rude.
If a player has an issue with any digidex or dataslate I have purchased (as in its authenticity) I offer to download and replace it on the spot. If they still have an issue with it, I just play someone else or go somewhere else. The need to keep up with every dex or slate isn't on the store or club, its on the player looking to use it.
Carnage43 wrote: 1. Don't have to keep up to date on the somewhat excessive dataslate release schedule
2. Ban some of the more over the top sillyness in 40k 3. Don't have to support GW trying to take business from the FLGS 4. Pisses you off.
All seems like valid and good reason to ban them to me.
There's going to be some collateral damage with any manner of wide spread banning, and frankly, SOBs is a small price to pay in this guy's opinion.
To put it politely and not break rule #1: people like you are a big part of what is wrong with the 40k community. Please don't play other games and bring this attitude to other communities.
dracpanzer wrote: If a player has an issue with any digidex or dataslate I have purchased (as in its authenticity) I offer to download and replace it on the spot. If they still have an issue with it, I just play someone else or go somewhere else. The need to keep up with every dex or slate isn't on the store or club, its on the player looking to use it.
So what's the issue?
The issue is that the store bans them from use in the store, period, and it's the only store in town. No where else to go within reasonable distance, as I take it from reading the thread.
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it
j31c3n wrote: Someone just needs to make a board in their basement and invite everyone over, then.
Or talk to the people in the shop about making a club, then see about local funding and club locales. In a lot of countries the city will provide for a "club house" if you have enough young people and fill in the proper forms. It keeps the deranged tabletop players off the streets and off the marijuanas, you see.
j31c3n wrote: Someone just needs to make a board in their basement and invite everyone over, then.
Yeah that is how I've dealt with annoying store owner rules and muchkin players. I have my own 4x8 table at home, a ton of scenery and a group of friends who approach the game the same way I do. All good and all open minded and willing to see new data slates, units and even forgeworld on the table without panic or complaint. Takes a while to collect a good bit of scenery, but slowly but surely you will eventually have plenty to use.
Sad when the primary location for gaming in an area imposes rules on folks that ruin their enjoyment of the hobby.
In all fairness, I had no idea there would be so many strong opinions on the subject. I agree this hobby is great, and I thank everyone for the input. I have learned this is not common practice, and will engage store owner on it, but bottom line up front is, other than my garage in the hot oklahoma heat, it is the best place to play, with nice people that come to the store. The store owner is not a turd and is awesome to talk with. He is passionate about the hobby, just not about digital content apparently.
I thank everyone for the input though. Iron jack, gonna see you at the tourny on Sunday??
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it
Spoken like a true American!
That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it
Spoken like a true American!
That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."
I think Breat Brittain would speak to our stance lol.
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it
I think this goes plenty far to show what kind of 'good guys' are at this store. Clearly, the problems are deeper than just the owner's own stupid policy.
OP, I'm very sorry that this is your best place to play and the best friends you have to play with.
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it
Spoken like a true American!
That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."
You should be free to voice your opinion on it but the store owner is free to not give a damn, as well as free to fail and lose his business.
Is there a rule that tells people to read the responses to the thread before continuing to post? I mean...people keep telling him to play at a different store, but the OP has said multiple times that the store in question is the only FLGS around.
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it
Spoken like a true American!
That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."
First off, that was very insulting for no reason.
Second off as a soldier I know exactly what it means to fight for something, I Iost the full use of one of my legs doing exactly that and ask that you do not belittle the legacy of those who have died doing so as well.
Third, what does my nationality have to do with anything? I understand that people do not like my country and think that many people that share the American nationality extremely arrogant, but I am am not such a person I do what I can to change things as I can and make life better for all.
I've been rather polite in this whole topic and have only sought to inform Redledger about the reasons behind the rule which basically boils down to :
"Long time customer violated store owners trust, who knows how many times and drove away other customers. Store owner banned said player and did the only thing he knew of to prevent a repeat incident from ever happening short of checking everyone's codex himself."
If you have a problem.with that then that's fine, I'm not going to personally attack you over it. Your money, your hobby, your choice.
Ir0njack wrote: Honestly its not that big a deal *for me and other regulars from what I've seen atleast* like I've said, I've only seen it really enforced during tournaments.
So basically you want to completely ban my army, which is already by no means a top tier army or one very well supported by GW to begin with, for no benefit whatsoever.
There, fixed that for you. If your going to quote me, please keep it in context. I stated my stance on the matter and "from what I've seen" other's stances. Now if your a SOB player I'd think that a exception could be made in as they only possess a digital codex for a entire army " And a long standing and liked one at that". But then again its not my store or my rules I deal with what I get dealt if I can't change it
Spoken like a true American!
That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."
First off, that was very insulting for no reason.
Second off as a soldier I know exactly what it means to fight for something, I Iost the full use of one of my legs doing exactly that and ask that you do not belittle the legacy of those who have died doing so as well.
Third, what does my nationality have to do with anything? I understand that people do not like my country and think that many people that share the American nationality extremely arrogant, but I am am not such a person I do what I can to change things as I can and make life better for all.
I've been rather polite in this whole topic and have only sought to inform Redledger about the reasons behind the rule which basically boils down to :
"Long time customer violated store owners trust, who knows how many times and drove away other customers. Store owner banned said player and did the only thing he knew of to prevent a repeat incident from ever happening short of checking everyone's codex himself."
If you have a problem.with that then that's fine, I'm not going to personally attack you over it. Your money, your hobby, your choice.
Yea, this kind of devolved quite quickly, and was not my intent. However, I would like to invite you to my occasional garage game. Helcult will be in full effect! lol.
I would be delighted, hit me up in a pm and we can get something going. I've got some IG, mostly footguard and I'm working on some admech and cobbling together some BT from my hoard of bits.
That's a dangerously apathetic outlook. You just lay back and accept that it's "his store" and "his rules" and that means he gets to tell you how to play because you're out of options? "First, they came for the Sisters of Battle, and I did not speak out..."
First off, that was very insulting for no reason.
Second off as a soldier I know exactly what it means to fight for something, I Iost the full use of one of my legs doing exactly that and ask that you do not belittle the legacy of those who have died doing so as well.
Third, what does my nationality have to do with anything? I understand that people do not like my country and think that many people that share the American nationality extremely arrogant, but I am am not such a person I do what I can to change things as I can and make life better for all.
I've been rather polite in this whole topic and have only sought to inform Redledger about the reasons behind the rule which basically boils down to :
"Long time customer violated store owners trust, who knows how many times and drove away other customers. Store owner banned said player and did the only thing he knew of to prevent a repeat incident from ever happening short of checking everyone's codex himself."
If you have a problem.with that then that's fine, I'm not going to personally attack you over it. Your money, your hobby, your choice.
Wasn't trying to be personally insulting. Just a stupid American politics joke that came out too harshly. My apologies.
A store like this was the last straw for me. I moved and played a tournament level army of SoB/IG/Inquisition. At the time in 6E I was doing well, and went undefeated in a tournament prior to moving (but lost best general due to bull crap, another reason I left 40k...). The store had house rules and comp, okay cool. I played one event and then was told my list is now illegal as everything is two sources only. Then I was told I could no longer run three exorcist tanks. Even though the store allowed white scar spam and Eldar/DE allies lists (which were pet armies of the store comp writers...). Lastly, because some kid photoshopped his electronic codex to cheat, all digital sources were banned. So no more Sister and Inquisition.
After that two to three month mess, near the end of 6E, I sold it all off. It just magnified everything wrong with 40k. I got one last game in with my Grey Knights (my only army I still have due to their unique attention to detail) and then quit for good.
Honestly, OP, if you want a war gaming scene closer to MTG, where the rules for competitive tournament play are rock solid, play Warmachine. I've since switched bought four armies and the rules are always the same everywhere. Much better balanced and less whiny house rules for no arbitrary reason. It's still possible, as people are people. However, if you're looking for a game that's also hobby versus a hobby that's also a game, don't play 40k. It sucks competitively for what you've experienced.
I remember store owners on this website doing this in 6th edition after GW released direct only / digital download data slates. I think the controversy started with that flyer one.
TheKbob wrote: A store like this was the last straw for me. I moved and played a tournament level army of SoB/IG/Inquisition. At the time in 6E I was doing well, and went undefeated in a tournament prior to moving (but lost best general due to bull crap, another reason I left 40k...). The store had house rules and comp, okay cool. I played one event and then was told my list is now illegal as everything is two sources only. Then I was told I could no longer run three exorcist tanks. Even though the store allowed white scar spam and Eldar/DE allies lists (which were pet armies of the store comp writers...). Lastly, because some kid photoshopped his electronic codex to cheat, all digital sources were banned. So no more Sister and Inquisition.
After that two to three month mess, near the end of 6E, I sold it all off. It just magnified everything wrong with 40k. I got one last game in with my Grey Knights (my only army I still have due to their unique attention to detail) and then quit for good.
Honestly, OP, if you want a war gaming scene closer to MTG, where the rules for competitive tournament play are rock solid, play Warmachine. I've since switched bought four armies and the rules are always the same everywhere. Much better balanced and less whiny house rules for no arbitrary reason. It's still possible, as people are people. However, if you're looking for a game that's also hobby versus a hobby that's also a game, don't play 40k. It sucks competitively for what you've experienced.
That sucks. I play a straight up Sisters' army on occasion. They used to be my primary army, but they got boring to play since they are pretty much one style of list. If that happened to me, I would have told off the store owner and said I was done a customer. I still play, but I tend to collect hard mode armies by accident. Raven Guard, Dark Angels, and Sisters.
Voidwraith wrote: Question to the OP: Is this digital ban only for the tournaments at the store, or is it a wide-spread ban that the owner expects to encompass all games that take place there? It is possible that the formal will lead to the latter, but just wondering how far this guy's personal feelings are handcuffing his player population.
I usually only go in there to play in tournaments, but I do know the Ban on Codex's is store wide. I am sure if I was playing on a casual Sunday and ran a Helcult, he would be none the wiser but his store, his rules so I don't even attempt it. The main point of this post was to get a consensus on whether this was normal or not, as this is my first time delving into mini wargaming, as I played MTG prior. I will engage him again on the subject but I am pretty sure he is rock solid in his point of view.
Desubot wrote: No you Can check them if you ask to see there Black library account as its tied to it.
The exception being I pad type things which should also have purchase histories.
ITs really easy to check if some one had downloaded something or purchased it.
ITs about how intrusive you want to get.
Then again just asking to see it shouldnt cause uproar from some one that bought the thing anyway.
yeah, the rules say one has to show the rules, not show your account gistory. Aside for tax police, I don't think there are many people that can force others to show their history and even they need a warrent for it. Unless it is a matter of national security or something.
How does that affect them at all?
Should we also disclose which miniatures we bought on ebay or traded from friends or assembled from extra bitz in excess of the amount of models advertised on a kit's box?
And should those things thereby be barred from use?
Well here it is more or less it. If a shop doesn't sell it, it won't let people use it. If it takes money away from them, because let say your buying inifnity and they don't sell it, they wont accept people playing or using the models. And it does affect them, each codex bought in digital form is one codex less bought from the store and if they are unable to check which one is the original and which one is a copy, then one digital sm codex could turn in to many unsold sm books.
As for ebay buying models goes, if the store owner suddenly sees someone with a 1500pts army you never used, they won't like it. They won't, probably , kick you out of the store, unless the models are recasts, but it may be harder to get a table to play or the time table to play may put you at strange hours or at times when you can play.
Let's be honest many shop owners are short-sighted and have a chip on their shoulder.
The self-righteous "I am God here" routine is counterproductive to growing a gaming community and hurts sales in the long run.
Example: you don't sell infinity so we can't play it in your store?
Think about how silly that is. How will you ever sell it without running some demos of exposing people to it? Think of my games as free demos I'm running for you.
I've seen people ask store owners to special order games/models for them based on seeing Something new played in front of them.
I've seen whole scenes develop for a game in a store with a genesis of someone bringing it in and showing it to others.
New games also result in more associated sales: paints, tools, etc.
And I've never gone to a game night and not purchased things myself. So I may be playing infinity but I am going to buy stuff. If you ban my game I'll go elsewhere or play it at home. And if I can't play in your store I'm no longer buying from you, I'm going straight to the Internet.
Turn me away and you lose my sales and the potential sales I'll possibly help generate for you from others who see our game.
Does he not want to increase sales?
He will most likely be closed in the next 3-5 years with his current mentality if he needs gaming sales to stay afloat...
My store does not allow digital anything. To them they say they are too easy to modify and cheat. He tells a story where one guy was caught cheating with one during a tournament; TO was called and informed. TO checks the codex, and apparently ON THE SPOT changes it. And modifies the point values. I call BS and on the story and tell him that I will pay him 50$ right there if he is able to back up his claims and modify my E codex on my tablet right from the ereader. He didn't take me up on the offer.
His 2nd reason is that to him, buying an E-codex is the same as flipping off the store owner. This honestly was a factor to me selling off my sisters of battle. Because why play an army that you can't play? :(
conker249 wrote: My store does not allow digital anything. To them they say they are too easy to modify and cheat. He tells a story where one guy was caught cheating with one during a tournament; TO was called and informed. TO checks the codex, and apparently ON THE SPOT changes it. And modifies the point values. I call BS and on the story and tell him that I will pay him 50$ right there if he is able to back up his claims and modify my E codex on my tablet right from the ereader. He didn't take me up on the offer.
His 2nd reason is that to him, buying an E-codex is the same as flipping off the store owner. This honestly was a factor to me selling off my sisters of battle. Because why play an army that you can't play? :(
Though possibly not practical for you. you should of looked for a new game store in the area
Supporting another store would of been better if you didn't like his polices.
Also that's terrible that you sold off your sisters.
At the time it was only that store. Closest otherwise is 2 hours. There is a new place to play now. Very sad I chose to sell the sisters. I told myself I will sell every army I have to fund a sisters army if they ever get a reboot like the dark elder did.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do play at both flgs now. I have other armies. Just sisters are so unique I felt happy every time I played with them.
I should add to my complaints about E Codex's and data slate for my FLGS that I enjoy playing there. There are a few dakka members that play there as well that are great to play against.
conker249 wrote: I should add to my complaints about E Codex's and data slate for my FLGS that I enjoy playing there. There are a few dakka members that play there as well that are great to play against.
Why do you defend your abuser? They essentially bullied you into selling your favorite army and then you turn around and say you enjoy playing there?
It's really a load of nonsense. The argument is essentially "you could have purchased that item through the FLGS."
Well, in a certain sense, that's true (for some codices/supplements), but you really cannot purchase a digital download from an FLGS. They can only stock the physical copies. The digital versions of those items are only sold by the Black Library. If I had a tablet, I would certainly only purchase digital rules because it's more convenient for me to transport.
Any store owner taking issue with this could either a) shove it or b) allow me to purchase 2 codices for the price of 1 and store the second in a locker in his store.
I understand the OP's problem of not having any other store in the area. Besides my FLGS, the nearest store is 4 hours drive and an international border away (not including time spent in passport control and exchanging currency). Talking to the store owner and explaining the situation might be helpful if they are understanding.
For the record, I pretty much stopped going to the store that did that partly because they don't have a convenient Warmachine night I can attend and partly because of the 40k nonsense. The current stores I attend know that Warmachine players don't buy rules as they either come with models or we use War Room, but yet we still get full support... and I continue to buy models from them as the desire arises (and I really should stop letting that desire arise, judging by my "to-build" pile).
Part of the problem is the store, I'd also say part of the problem is the game. I can assure you that if some store tried to crack down on Warmachine players for using war room, that'd go over like a lead balloon. I'd say if many people feel the same about the digital nonsense, as a player base, then vote together with your feet.
Xenophon00 wrote: Does your FLGS allowed at least the SoB digital codex? since it does not exist in hard version.
Mine didn't for organized play. Also, I believe zero FW was allowed (or greatly restricted), also because the store didn't sell it. And also because a ton of FW these days is more Forgery World.
I feel like this kind of store is soon going to start knifing edges off the paint and biting your soldiers to make sure you've bought the models in their store.
(that was a clever reference to the archetype of a greedy merchant biting your gold coin, or chipping it, to make sure you haven't just coated lead in a thin cover of gold, because that's what he would do.)
General Kroll wrote: I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.
It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.
If you play in a store, you should buy from the store. I've always believed and practiced that.
However, some dataslates are digital only, like Cypher, Bel-Akor, and the like. Further, some Codecies are digital only, like Inquisition and Sisters of Battle. A store that bans those, when you can't buy them from the store, just doesn't make sense.
General Kroll wrote: I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.
It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.
If you play in a store, you should buy from the store. I've always believed and practiced that.
However, some dataslates are digital only, like Cypher, Bel-Akor, and the like. Further, some Codecies are digital only, like Inquisition and Sisters of Battle. A store that bans those, when you can't buy them from the store, just doesn't make sense.
Of course it's good to support your local store and to give business to the one you play in. It doesn't mean it's ok for them to insist you only play with models and rules bought IN their store. Frankly it's greedy and unreasonable.
It would be like a golf course banning any clubs or attire that weren't available in the club shop.
Wow. All this makes me so happy that my FLGS owner is a grat guy. I once asked him what he thought about people using third party minatures and other such things and he said "As long as they have fun, good for them." And not only is FW allowed, it is encouraged. The owner even makes occasional FW orders for people to pick up at his store, as many customers are collage kids who live in the dorms. Makes things easy and fun for everyone. We also have a thriving Pathfinder Society group that plays every other week, and he never pressures anyone to buy anything from him, or tells them they can't use digital books. I really think this is how all stores should be ran, wether it is a GW store, or a FLGS. It creates an atmosphere of good will and good sportsnamship. Not to mention, if you spend enough time playing there you are likely to spend money. I even run my home game of Pathfinder there and he is always happy to let us use a room.
My FLGS will do forge world orders, but adds 10% to the total cost(after you already pay the 10% for the shipping) So no one orders from forge world there. I make the store sound horrible, but these complaints bug me and are related to the topic.
conker249 wrote: My FLGS will do forge world orders, but adds 10% to the total cost(after you already pay the 10% for the shipping)
Why would the store owner think that this is a good idea? The only reason to do a FW order through a store is to combine a bunch of smaller orders and reach the free shipping threshold. If you're paying the store 10% for their "service" you aren't saving money. I'm glad that nobody falls for this scam, but WTF is the store owner thinking?
Mine didn't for organized play. Also, I believe zero FW was allowed (or greatly restricted), also because the store didn't sell it. And also because a ton of FW these days is more Forgery World.
So if you have paid full price for proper forge world models you get the shaft because others might have some knockoffs on the table? So did they expect everyone to completely rebuild their armies only using minis bought from the store too? What a bunch of lunacy. Wow even if they had a convenient night I would not bother to ever play at that store. Also really nice to screw over Sisters players even more as if they have a say in the fact that their codex is only available in e-format.
So at the tournament yesterday someone brought a Daemon army and won. This made my happy since the normal 2 winners did not win, and Chaos was on top, even if it was not CSM. However upon looking at his list, (I did not play him) I see he had Belakor. The TO did not check lists closely, but one of the guys he played, who thinks digital stuff should be allowed, let the guy know Belakor was technically illegal in this store. However I think this is a step in the right direction into getting us the ability to use atleast the digital only models and armies in the store.
General Kroll wrote: I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.
It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.
If you play in a store, you should buy from the store.
So if I find a new store, I'm not allowed to bring my already built armies there?
I don't care for strawman arguments. I never said you can't bring things you already own to a store, and I think you know better than that, Melissa.
My stance is, again, if I am playing game X at a store, and something new comes out for game x, then I buy that something new from the store I'm playing at.
Dataslates and codecies that are only available in digital form... obviously you can't buy that from the store, which you conveniently cut out from that quote.
This looks like more of a store owner trying to do "the right thing" by doing the only thing he can really think of on how to solve it. If what Ir0njack says is true, this owner saw one bad egg ruin the fun for everyone else. Which in addition to affecting his sales and running customers out of the store, it also goes against the spirit of the game. Something that the OP has said that the owner is passionate about. So banning the TFG is a no-brainer, but how can he prevent that issue from arising again? So, his logical course of action was the banning of digital content since it can be altered. While this blanket solution isn't optimal, it did resolve his issue. At best, It's only a temporary fix though. Just because you covered a hole with duct tape doesn't mean you don't eventually want to get it fixed.
From what i've been reading from redleger and Ir0njack, this owner isn't some tyrannical jerk that only wants money and to have things his way like a lot of posters are suggesting. It sound's like he's a cool, friendly local owner that wants everyone to enjoy the game and is trying to make it so everyone does. He is just having issues fulfilling that goal. Sounds like he's like us, a fellow player who is trying to make money doing something he loves. How is that any different from a commission painter making something he's proud of or a top tournament player aiming for grand prize? I think a more constructive way to take this thread would be to possibly help redleger with some suggestions he can take to his FLGS to help allow dataslates, digital codexes, and other digital aids instead of telling him to find a new place to play. If the FLGS owner is as cool of a guy as implied, I don't forsee it being a problem.
Then the question arises, how can you still support a fun, friendly, competitive gaming environment while still preventing cheating and TFGs from becoming an issue? My suggestion is have copies of everything as a resource in the store. That means a store version of the BRB, printed dataslates, supplements, and in the case of sisters, a printed version of the digital dex. They can all be printed copies of the digital dexs for all I care, they are there just as a resource after all. Thus shouldn't be getting use in tournaments. (If your playing an army in a tournament, you should have your own codex, not a loaner.) Providing these resources can both prevent cheating by having a source to fact check against discrepancies in lists and have an overall blanket of rulebooks to help newer players that haven't bought a book, are trying an army, or just can't quite remember how many dice to roll when firing a storm bolter. This would also help the gamers be able to police themselves if they suspect someone of cheating instead of putting the full responsibility on the store owner, further encouraging a positive gaming community. Player's get to play the armies the way they want to, there is a hard copy of everything so if someone is cheating they can get caught and tossed, owner gets his happy gaming store. Everyone wins.
TLDR: Provide players a way to prevent cheating and the only bad guy will be the cheater.
Wow it surprises me how one question from an inexperienced player (me) has led to so much hate towards a person none of them know. Mr Piddlez is correct in everything he has stated, and exalted for truth.
However I never thought of having him print out the Dataslates. I would even pay the 5 dollars to have the Chaos Slates printed out as hard copies in the store so that I could use them. I would immediately order belakor and 2 more Helbrutes from him in response as well.
Thank you Mr Piddlez for the well thought out response.
redleger wrote: Wow it surprises me how one question from an inexperienced player (me) has led to so much hate towards a person none of them know. Mr Piddlez is correct in everything he has stated, and exalted for truth.
However I never thought of having him print out the Dataslates. I would even pay the 5 dollars to have the Chaos Slates printed out as hard copies in the store so that I could use them. I would immediately order belakor and 2 more Helbrutes from him in response as well.
Thank you Mr Piddlez for the well thought out response.
Not a problem, It's not often that I'm right, so it's a nice change.
I don't foresee it being a problem for him, plus it also would also open the door towards letting other data slates be used. Since your also volunteering to buy them, It's not a big investment on his part. Which could easily establish a simple rule. "If you want to play a data slate, provide a printed copy to the store." I think that's reasonable. Let me know how it turns out.
I think you're confusing people being honest with 'hate'. Frankly, your owner is being pretty stupid in this ban, there's no way to sugar coat that or make it 'nice' to hear. He needs to hear it, though. Right now, the policy is stupid, but it can be changed and fixed.
While I disagree with the ban on digital sources, I don't feel like it was unjustified or stupid nor was the owner stupid or unjustified in his decision. As i said before, this is a temporary fix at best. You can splint a broken leg but you still need to get a cast on it when you have time to set it properly.
My best guess is there was some major backlash when people found out about TFG that had been cheating and altering his digital codex. So after the angry mob was done with him then they probably turned the torches and pitchforks on the owner for not foreseeing/preventing/casting divination on the cheater. People can be fickle like that, and there always has to be someone to blame. So my best guess is that the digital content ban was created right there on the spot to ease minds and provide a "fix". Is it optimal? No. Is it justified? Yes.
Keep in mind that the redleger and Ir0njack both stated that this is the ONLY store for miles around. Which means he's catering to all types of players. That means competitive, casual, WAAC, and the less desirable players like cheaters. It's probably hard enough to keep the peace as is. Cut the guy a little slack, he's probably doing the best he can. In the end, it's a game full of tiny plastic men. It's not worth getting this worked up about.
Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
redleger wrote: Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
Will that mean he will not allow ANY GW in store?
If so man i hope him luck.
You can always start a garage club. Its much more controllable and is not that hard.
AT best you need to invest about 1-200 in tables and terrain which is simple enough if everyone contributes.
redleger wrote: Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
Will that mean he will not allow ANY GW in store?
If so man i hope him luck.
You can always start a garage club. Its much more controllable and is not that hard.
AT best you need to invest about 1-200 in tables and terrain which is simple enough if everyone contributes.
He is likely to move on to other games. I already host a game in my garage, so I could easily start opening up more space and get something more going. I do think it might be suicide though. I don't think comics and board games alone will keep him afloat, but I have no idea what his business statements look like. I will start planning ahead though. I have been wanting to build a new table.
redleger wrote: Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
Will that mean he will not allow ANY GW in store?
If so man i hope him luck.
You can always start a garage club. Its much more controllable and is not that hard.
AT best you need to invest about 1-200 in tables and terrain which is simple enough if everyone contributes.
He is likely to move on to other games. I already host a game in my garage, so I could easily start opening up more space and get something more going. I do think it might be suicide though. I don't think comics and board games alone will keep him afloat, but I have no idea what his business statements look like. I will start planning ahead though. I have been wanting to build a new table.
Expect destruction.
Unless he is actively promoting other game systems no one will really play besides MTG maybe (Because that sells its self) but MOST people play GW so cutting them out is kinda a bad idea :/
If he has (decent terrain) and he is legity rage quitting try to pick it off em for cheap.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Thus shouldn't be getting use in tournaments. (If your playing an army in a tournament, you should have your own codex, not a loaner.)
So you're all for banning Sisters from tournaments, because Sisters don't have a physical codex?
If the rule is hard set, you can't use digital codices, then this still doesn't solve the problem.
Eventually, the store owner is going to have to take his head out of his ass and trust his customers, or LOSE his customers.
redleger wrote: Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
More and more LGS are going that way. They get fed up with having to jump through GW's hoops to carry their product. Why waste valuable shelf space on a company that treats you as a competitor instead of a ally. GW is it own worst enemy.
redleger wrote: Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
Thats unfortunate, I know the owner loves his 40k so it would be a hard decision. I couldn't blame him though, alot of the fantasy vets to just want nothing to do with AoS from what I've seen. It it wouldn't put a end to the the tourneys or 40k sundays though so there's that at least. With all the other hobbies the store plays host to as well the financial state of the store wouldn't take a hit I think, if it would I don't think he would be entertaining the idea to stop stocking GW. Btw I stopped in last sunday and bummed around for abit, wasnt sure who you were of if you were attending so I just limped around with my cane and watched the tourney for awhile.
Also, Mr_Piddlez you hit the nail on the head, thanks for understanding. Nice to see someone who gets it. With all of the exaggerated vitrol over our FLGS you would think that some people would want to set fire to the store and drag the owner into the street and beat him to death.
I'm just dipping my toes in the water again after not playing for a couple of years and never heard of a data slate. Here's the numero uno reason our game stores frowned on laptops and pdfs before though.. as long as people can find pdfs online they never have to pay GW another cent for overpriced paper books
Btw, I'm an old school pencil and paper guy. I get a laugh out of the newer generation that don't know how to function without a computer in their hand. The only "electronic gaming aid" I know is a calculator to check my point totals
Brotherjulian wrote: Btw, I'm an old school pencil and paper guy. I get a laugh out of the newer generation that don't know how to function without a computer in their hand. The only "electronic gaming aid" I know is a calculator to check my point totals
I use an abacus. I get a laugh out of the newer generation who can't function without an electronic adding machine to check their math for them.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Thus shouldn't be getting use in tournaments. (If your playing an army in a tournament, you should have your own codex, not a loaner.)
So you're all for banning Sisters from tournaments, because Sisters don't have a physical codex?
If the rule is hard set, you can't use digital codices, then this still doesn't solve the problem.
Eventually, the store owner is going to have to take his head out of his ass and trust his customers, or LOSE his customers.
The point I was trying to illustrate was that there should be a hard copy at the store to prevent cheating. So people CAN use their digital codexes. At no point was I trying to imply that sisters can't be played in a tournament. Just that you owned your own codex, AKA not using the store version at a tournament.
Psienesis wrote:
It's not worth getting this worked up about.
Have you seen the pricetag on a Sisters army?
I've seen the price tag for one squad for a sisters army and that was enough for me to not look further. So I guess for a SoB player, you can get as worked up as you want.
As for as the subject at hand, I'm sorry to hear he's doing that redleger, but I can understand why he's doing that. From what i've been reading WHFB flopped pretty hard because of end times. Which made it almost pointless for a store to hold onto fantasy product. Since GW also cares very little for the FLGS model, it makes plenty of sense that they REQUIRE the store to stock all GW products. Effectively making the store have to take a "fantasy tax" to stock 40k. If I owned a store, I wouldn't want to stock fantasy either considering there's a pretty good chance I would never sell the product.
No one wants to lose money and from what I've seen from the FLGS's in my area, its more trouble than its worth to deal with GW about 75% of the time. (Missing product in shipments that GW refuses to replace, Broken finecast that GW refuses to replace, Missing orders completely that, you guessed it, GW refuses to replace.) From what I've seen, It often costs the store MORE money to fulfill a GW order for someone rather than someone buying it themselves online. Which made it so they that they just stopped ordering for people. So i understand completely why he'd be shying away from GW. Keep in mind, before most of you people light your torches and sharpen your pitchforks, this is not the store's fault. ANY company that makes it increasingly harder for you to do business with them is going to make you think twice about doing business with them again. If GW was a smaller company, they would of gone the way of the dodo long ago. Unfortunately that is not the case. Plus they've got this whole "too big to fail" mentality that makes it even harder for them to see their problems.
What this means for redleger and Ir0njack is that this FLGS is no longer going to be supporting GW's jackassery. That does NOT mean he isn't supporting the community. I'd still let people play the game in the store and let them play their tournaments. I don't see why he wouldn't either. Just make it handled by the players. Players decide what is allowed and what isn't. Players form the tournaments. Players collect the entry money for tournaments and divide it up for prizes. Players manage it, not him. Next thing I would approach him about is letting your gaming club use the space. Maybe he'll donate it, maybe he'll rent it to you. I suspect it wont be a big deal either way. One upside to this approach, from what you said about the tournament, sounds like most of the gaming club has no issue with dataslates. So at least that problem is solved.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: At no point was I trying to imply that sisters can't be played in a tournament. Just that you owned your own codex, AKA not using the store version at a tournament.
Except in tournaments at that store, only physical codices are accepted. Not digital. Because of the store owners' irrational behavior.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: At no point was I trying to imply that sisters can't be played in a tournament. Just that you owned your own codex, AKA not using the store version at a tournament.
Except in tournaments at that store, only physical codices are accepted. Not digital. Because of the store owners' irrational behavior.
Did you miss the part of my post where there was a printed copy of the sisters book at the store, a printed copy of the digital dex? I'll repost it and make it bold and underlined to help make it clearer.
Then the question arises, how can you still support a fun, friendly, competitive gaming environment while still preventing cheating and TFGs from becoming an issue? My suggestion is have copies of everything as a resource in the store. That means a store version of the BRB, printed dataslates, supplements, and in the case of sisters, a printed version of the digital dex. They can all be printed copies of the digital dexs for all I care, they are there just as a resource after all.
This is what I intended. That there is a copy of all dex's so ALL armies can be played. So there is NO question about people using digital dex's in tournaments since there is a resource to fact check against.
conker249 wrote:My FLGS will do forge world orders, but adds 10% to the total cost(after you already pay the 10% for the shipping). I make the store sound horrible, but these complaints bug me and are related to the topic.
I don't think the store sounds horrible at all, based ONLY on the 10% thing.
Peregrine wrote:
1. The only reason to do a FW order through a store is to combine a bunch of smaller orders and reach the free shipping threshold. 2. If you're paying the store 10% for their "service" you aren't saving money. 3. I'm glad that nobody falls for this scam, but WTF is the store owner thinking?
Numbered for your convenience:
1. There are other reasons to order through a store, such as described previously: Living in an area where packages would be stolen if left, and inconvenient pickup location for UPS/Fedex or whatever. Why not pick it up at a store you're going to anyhow?
2. Retail stores aren't about saving you money. They're a place for you to LOSE money, specifically designed as places for you to pay someone else for goods and services.
3. It's not a scam. He's being completely transparent in asking for a 10% fee to order your package, be responsible for handling and storing your package, and notifying you of when your package arrives. To be honest, 10% is a really modest fee. He's not really -making- anything off of that. Just barely recouping lost time and real estate from dealing with it. And WTF is he thinking? Probably that he has to pay the mortgage/rent and electric to keep the lights on and the doors open in your FLGS.
Maybe we collectively should think about whether or not having such stores around to play games at for free is worth something to us. For me, it is. I will always find a way to put money into the pocket of a store I frequent for play, likely every time I go there. I may or may not order forgeworld from such a store. There are ups and downs to the proposition, but I certainly wouldn't hold it against the FLGS for doing it that way. As a business owner/manager, I understand how overhead works, and nothing is free. The store HAS to make money, or there will be no store. Oftentimes, customers lose sight of this all the way up until their favorite store is closing it's doors permenently.
redleger wrote: Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
Thats unfortunate, I know the owner loves his 40k so it would be a hard decision. I couldn't blame him though, alot of the fantasy vets to just want nothing to do with AoS from what I've seen. It it wouldn't put a end to the the tourneys or 40k sundays though so there's that at least. With all the other hobbies the store plays host to as well the financial state of the store wouldn't take a hit I think, if it would I don't think he would be entertaining the idea to stop stocking GW. Btw I stopped in last sunday and bummed around for abit, wasnt sure who you were of if you were attending so I just limped around with my cane and watched the tourney for awhile.
Also, Mr_Piddlez you hit the nail on the head, thanks for understanding. Nice to see someone who gets it. With all of the exaggerated vitrol over our FLGS you would think that some people would want to set fire to the store and drag the owner into the street and beat him to death.
I was there. I saw you, figured that might be you. I had the 6 riptides who was doing horribly against the SM army full of land raiders. I did however destroy the player with the 7 Eldar flyers so I walked away with my head high. His Stompa died turn 2 without even killing a model. I was worried too when I saw it. 20 point Velocity Tracker made its points up.
redleger wrote: Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.
If he just wants to carry 40k, he can get his products from a different distributor is all. Only difference is that it means new releases might be delayed, and his margins will be smaller for the products, but it can be done. GW has driven many LGSs to third party distributors with their excessive stocking demands of store owners. Why would a store where no one plays any WHFB want to fill their shelves with fantasy models that won't sell when they know if they fill that space with 40k models they will sell? Just another way GW is pushing the LGS owner out of their marketing plans.
