We all know that the Imperium is basically doomed. Necrons are practically unstoppable, Orks outnumber humanity severely and the Tyranids are already on their way to Terra. To top it off, the Eldar are willing to start entire centuries long wars for the Imperium in order to protect a single one of their own while Choas just pops up anywhere, even in the most defended of places and turns everything into an uncontrollable mess.
However where there's a will there's a way and no doubt the Imperium has billions of people called Will. So I was wondering what exactly could the Imperium do to survive. Humans are like cockroaches, they will always find a way to survive even if the Imperium doesn't, but I want to know exactly how slim the Imperiums chances are.
Well if the HH novels and the Cabal are anything to go by, then humanity is certainly doomed. The theory was that either a) Emperor lives humanity will spread too thin and die out b) Emperor dies and Terra falls, also taking Chaos with it.
But instead what happened was c) Emperor half-dies and war drags on for 10K plus years, strengthening Chaos. With the threat of Chaos not enough Imperial attention can be given to Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Orks. So bad news bears.
lcmiracle wrote: None, Lasting survival was never an option. It's all the Imperium could do to delay the inevitable.
LOL
The Imperium has the gun to everyone else's head as much as anyone as the gun to ours. Ever heard of the STCs? You find one fully functional STC and it's game over for every xenos scumbag inside the galactic rim. And the Mechanicus has tens of thousands of relentless, fanatical searchers scrying the galaxy, with new fleets being launched every year. Even just a partial STC or one blueprint of one of the millions of super weapons from the DAoT and the game entirely changes. That's assuming the Lion doesn't wake up, that Sanguinus doesn't reincarnate into Mephiston, that Cypher doesn't kill the Emperor and allow him to resurrect, etc, etc. Humans have plenty of doomsday, rocks fall all xenos die tricks as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shoot, one, uno, rogue inquisitor came within a hair's breadth of replicating the cadian pylons and generating a null shock wave that collapsed the eye of terror and walled off that entire chaos incursion. How long do you think before that happens again? Centuries? Clock is ticking for everyone, even Chaos. That's what makes the game so damn exciting.
That depends on a lot of things. If they find a fully functioning STC and manage to secure it for mass dissemination the Imperium's chances would skyrocket. If the Emperor came back their chances would improve. If some of the loyalist Primarchs came back... I don't know. That would probably cue the traitor Primarchs to come back as well. It'd be a wash. If the Eldar and the Imperium decided to settle their differences and work together to defeat chaos that would improve their chances.
All of these things are possible with varying degrees of probability. So we will have to wait and see how GW develops the story if and when they ever do.
lcmiracle wrote: None, Lasting survival was never an option. It's all the Imperium could do to delay the inevitable.
LOL
The Imperium has the gun to everyone else's head as much as anyone as the gun to ours. Ever heard of the STCs? You find one fully functional STC and it's game over for every xenos scumbag inside the galactic rim. And the Mechanicus has tens of thousands of relentless, fanatical searchers scrying the galaxy, with new fleets being launched every year. Even just a partial STC or one blueprint of one of the millions of super weapons from the DAoT and the game entirely changes. That's assuming the Lion doesn't wake up, that Sanguinus doesn't reincarnate into Mephiston, that Cypher doesn't kill the Emperor and allow him to resurrect, etc, etc. Humans have plenty of doomsday, rocks fall all xenos die tricks as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shoot, one, uno, rogue inquisitor came within a hair's breadth of replicating the cadian pylons and generating a null shock wave that collapsed the eye of terror and walled off that entire chaos incursion. How long do you think before that happens again? Centuries? Clock is ticking for everyone, even Chaos. That's what makes the game so damn exciting.
That's a whole lotta optimism One thing to take into account, a lot of the Primarch and reincarnation stories are either fan made or just as likely stories made by Imperial citizens. None of those (Sanguinius reincarnation / Cypher brining back the emperor / Lion waking up / Guilliman healing in stasis / Khan coming back from his hunt / Leman Russ returning / Vulkan being alive and waiting) have any real support. Closer to rumors and stories than possibilities.
The Lion is explicitly stated to be A-OK in the Codex, not to mention that the Sanguinor is probably some funky reincarnation of Sanguinius. Vulkan's alive. Any moron should realize at this point that Guilliman can be healed with a simple bionic neck.
I think the bigger reason Guilliman is in stasis is due to the poison, not the neck injury itself. The toxin is already in his blood, so just patching his neck wont help anything. The stasis keeps it from coursing through his veins, IIRC.
Again though, until any of the Primarchs actually show up again they can be accredited little more than hopeful stories. Game wise I would not expect GW to touch on the Primarchs at least until the HH is in its full stage of release.
I get that it is optimistic, but I think the human-centric, pessismistic view of the game actually makes the xenos seem more shallow. They are fighting for their lives, as they realize if the Imperium un-feths 1 or 2 things, they are going to be sucking some major exterminatus torpedoes.
1) Working STC is found
2) Guilliman is revived using DAoT tech
3) The Lion wakes up from his nap
4) Vulkan escapes from Trazyn the Infinite's basement
5) Khan slips his bonds and waltzes out of Commorragh
6) Golden Throne finally fails. Terra is overrun by daemons, but then the Emperor curbstomp them, because of course he would.
7) ...
8) Galactic conquest?
...or would the combined might of the Tyranids/Necrons/Orks still be insurmountable?
Really after #1 I think you can skip to step 8. Even the emperor during the great crusade didn't have an STC. I've always considered the most likely endgame for 40k is the mechanicus (maybe not the imperium) winning, actually. An STC allows you to build sentient artificial intelligences. Yeah yeah yeah that's tech heresy but the kind of optimization that would be possible on forge world's is staggering. Like warhound titans becoming as common as russes, regiments of artificer armored guard zerg rushing you with lightning claws and grav cannons for everyone, and even podunk ship yards turning out a HEAVILY upgraded Mars class battleship every week. That's assuming you are smart and don't just mic drop with iron men and try to out necron the necrons. Didn't work out great last time
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could just shoot a micro sub assembling nanoswarm into that big world where the Orks are fighting the nids and come back in a month to see the bots have atomically rearranged all the matter in the entire system (including the xenos) into 6 brand new Phalanx class battle fortresses. An STC is the ultimate I win button
What was holding back the humans during the DAoT, was it just the Eldar dominance of the galaxy? If the Eldar at their peak were stronger than the DAoT humans, then would the Necrons really feasibly been able to take them on? For that matter, could the Eldar have successfully fought off the Tyranid invasions?
DanielBeaver wrote: What was holding back the humans during the DAoT, was it just the Eldar dominance of the galaxy? If the Eldar at their peak were stronger than the DAoT humans, then would the Necrons really feasibly been able to take them on? For that matter, could the Eldar have successfully fought off the Tyranid invasions?
There was nothing holding back humans in the DAOT- they were the supreme rulers of the galaxy at the time. The Eldar meanwhile, while more powerful, kept to a very small, extremely dense part of space and didn't expand beyond its borders.
Also if the Imperium were to get a working STC, it could even pose a significant threat to the Necrons. We're talking about battleships armed with black hole cannons that fire munitions at tachyon speeds. Manufactorums spitting out Imperator Titans on an hourly basis. Volkites and Plasma Guns becoming standard munitions. Mass produced Space Marines. Construction of mobile star forts similar to the Phalanx. Etc.
I'm trying to figure out how you would court martial a guy who negligently discharged a tachyon gun.
I haven't seen a background question yet where Wyzilla and I disagree. STC wielding humans in a very short time come to have almost the same tech as necrons, almost the same psychic capabilities as Eldar, and almost the same numbers as the orks. That's a bad combo for anyone not on team fancy primates
No, the psychic powers of the Eldar and the technological prowess of the Necrons are greater. Eldar at their height could mold worlds with their minds, or even built a machine that could create anything they dreamed. Necrons meanwhile developed weapons of such horrifying might to shatter the C'tan (which are directly tied to the universe itself) that broke reality to defeat their slaver lords. Along with phase tech, time travel, von neumann nanomachine swarms, more manipulation of reality (Celestial Orrery), etc.
Of course when looking at what happens when humans and Chaos mix, I very-much doubt humanity would develop in a similar pattern to either races. Given how powerful human pyskers can become, I wonder if they would even need ships anymore.
DanielBeaver wrote: What was holding back the humans during the DAoT, was it just the Eldar dominance of the galaxy? If the Eldar at their peak were stronger than the DAoT humans, then would the Necrons really feasibly been able to take them on? For that matter, could the Eldar have successfully fought off the Tyranid invasions?
As Wyzilla said, the DAoT saw no one able to feasibly contest with Mankind. The problem was a series of things. The Iron Men rebelled (and there was something about golden men too?) which was a huge blow, because they were a large portion of the tools needed. The entire galaxy also became totally rife with warp storms, making it stupid difficult to imossible to get anywhere. Lastly, humanity began to developing Psykers, which was new and unheard of - so lots of demons got through and raped isolated worlds.
Any one of those things would have been manageable, any two probably could have been overcome, but all three happend in a short time-frame and fethed over humanity.
Humans won't be as good as psykers as the eldar or as good of tech nerds as the Necrons, but it''s an 80% thing. If they are 80% as good at both as either of them are at their specialty, and they probably outnumber both, then you can see how that starts to be an insurmountable problem for both.
The whole timeline conflict between the DAoT and the Eldar is due to a series of unfortunate background decisions by GW about 8 years ago to make the fall of the eldar tied to 30k. It wasn't before that, and it's one of the major weaknesses of the background, IMO.
The thing about an STC discovery is that the Imperium wouldn't need the Iron Men any more, because manpower isn't exactly in short supply and the Munitorium has zero problem with casualties. So you can sidestep that entire landmine there.
Depends on the status of the Eldar. Pre-Fall Eldar numbered in the quadrillions, potentially a tredecillion total. At one point the Eldar may have even outnumbered the Orks (certainly explains how they made Slaanesh).
I don't think humanity will be better if the Emperor comes back though. Think about it, the Imperium has seperated so fa from the Emperors vision that they may reject any claims of him coming back if he tries to change things. The sheer number of civil wars that would start would finish the Imperium off before anything else.
1) Working STC is found
2) Guilliman is revived using DAoT tech
3) The Lion wakes up from his nap
4) Vulkan escapes from Trazyn the Infinite's basement
5) Khan slips his bonds and waltzes out of Commorragh
6) Golden Throne finally fails. Terra is overrun by daemons, but then the Emperor curbstomp them, because of course he would.
7) ...
8) Galactic conquest?
...or would the combined might of the Tyranids/Necrons/Orks still be insurmountable?
Tyranids: Stomped
Orks: Stamped out for the most part but they'll be back around for another go.
Necrons: Probably War in Heaven 2: Electric Boogaloo. It would be devastating to the galaxy with how much firepower would be thrown around.
If the Emporer came back it would be interesting. He has shown he has no ethical or morale issue with wtfpwnbbq'ng human civilizations that fall into religious barbarism and continuing this crusade against humanity until all that's left are those who side with him. He has the 'my way or the highway' approach and current Imperium fell far from his way.
So if gaining access to a STC would put the Imperium on pole position to rule the galaxy, surely Eldar and Chaos would have the foresight to see this and attempt to stop it?
Could create an interesting merry go round of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', except when it's chaos, in which case it's still my enemy but less so than the Imperium
Chaos would not so much attempt to stop it as swoop in and steal the STC for themselves. As for Eldar, I guess it would depend on whether the Craftworld in question valued the ability to restore the Eldar Empire over the high possibility of the galaxy being scoured of all life. An STC equipped Imperium is the galaxy's only real hope against the horrors of the Tyranids, Orks and the, most of all, the Necrons.
The answer to this question is based entirely upon what happens after the Emperor dies. If he gets reincarnated into a normal human, then the Imperium is fethed, but a copy of it will be made in a few thousand years. If the Emperor dies while the Sensei are present and the Sensei get absorbed into him and he turns into an even more powerful God, the IoM is basically guaranteed to survive. If the Emperor dies and becomes a disembodied God of Order without any tethers to the physical universe and who now spawns Angels (Emperor's Daemons) to do his bidding, IoM is likely to survive. Personally, I hope that the latter happens and they add a new faction of Daemons who are the Emperor's Daemons. It wouldn't even be that hard, just flesh out the Legion of the Damned and give them more units and more lore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Silverthorne wrote: Really after #1 I think you can skip to step 8. Even the emperor during the great crusade didn't have an STC.
Emperor could easily have built his own STC, though. He had the knowledge and the intelligence, but he was too busy building armies, building Webways, massacring Xenos, etc. etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DanielBeaver wrote: What was holding back the humans during the DAoT, was it just the Eldar dominance of the galaxy? If the Eldar at their peak were stronger than the DAoT humans, then would the Necrons really feasibly been able to take them on? For that matter, could the Eldar have successfully fought off the Tyranid invasions?
Humans were actually rational during the DAoT - you know, not xenocidal, genocidal, or completely and utterly xenophobic. They just wanted to grow and expand without commiting destroying sentient species.
Necrons: Probably War in Heaven 2: Electric Boogaloo. It would be devastating to the galaxy with how much firepower would be thrown around.
Necrons were united and far more numerous in the War in Heaven. Also, STC tech doesn't even come close to the Old Ones, whose psychic abilities were triple that of the Eldar at their height (Old Ones were basically Gods in their own right) Necrons don't have C'tan anymore, so minus a helluva lotta destruction right there, and the Necrons still have a lot of infighting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: Chaos would not so much attempt to stop it as swoop in and steal the STC for themselves. As for Eldar, I guess it would depend on whether the Craftworld in question valued the ability to restore the Eldar Empire over the high possibility of the galaxy being scoured of all life. An STC equipped Imperium is the galaxy's only real hope against the horrors of the Tyranids, Orks and the, most of all, the Necrons.
I agree. I'd like to see Biel-Tan get an STC and start actually rebuilding the Eldar Empire.
That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."
Durandal wrote: The Imperium can't last because GW will do the End Times for 40k and move all the models to square bases
Oh by the Emperor no! Bring about a galaxy spanning war, awash the void with blood, blot out the stars with the wreckage of countless fleets and snuff out the heart of the galaxy itself, but DON'T.. DON'T put my minis on square bases!
2BlackJack1 wrote: That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."
All that they wold need to do is make it so that the STC is heavily damaged and not all of the blueprints could be recovered, that way Eldar don't become unstoppable, just on the j-curve.
GW fluff, as always, is designed to be all grimdark and depressing, with plenty of latitude for individual players to develop their own headcanon (not 'head cannon').
It's just as easy to imagine the Imperium having a new Emperor/Sebastian Thor/Robute Guilliman figure who arises to save/reform/rebuild the Imperium in it's darkest hour as it is to imagine the Imperium ground to dust under the boots of it's many foes.
The one thing you can probably count on is that any 'Imperium' that manages to emerge from the End Times will be significantly different from the IOM portrayed in current fluff. Any nation, society or civilization that survives an existential crisis - one that is a real threat to it's existence - emerges changed.
Look at the differences between pre-and post- Civil War and WWII United States or Britain (different Civil Wars obviously), pre-and post- Revolutionary France or Russia, and a host of other real world examples.
Within 40k the Imperium went through sea changes with the Horus Heresy and the Age of Apostasy already. It underwent radical changes in government and society after each.
From a storyteller's perspective, one of the great things about the End Times scenario is that it demands the rise of extraordinary heroes and tyrants on all sides. Every faction will spawn characters of prodigious ability and mythic character who will clash on the galactic stage. These demigods will set the stage for the next cycle of civilization... or destruction.
Since we game on this cusp of history the story has yet to be fully told. So whether your headcanon has the Imperium revitalized or destroyed, the Greater Good suffusing all civilized beings, the Eldar Empire risen like a Phoenix or finally snuffed out, the galaxy devoured by Tyranids or crushed under the iron heel of the Necrons or utterly corrupted by Chaos... whatever your fancy there's room for it based on the existing fluff. NOTHING is impossible.
It's up to you, through your own gaming and storytelling, to influence that outcome.
Wyzilla wrote: Depends on the status of the Eldar. Pre-Fall Eldar numbered in the quadrillions, potentially a tredecillion total. At one point the Eldar may have even outnumbered the Orks (certainly explains how they made Slaanesh).
Wyzilla wrote: There was nothing holding back humans in the DAOT- they were the supreme rulers of the galaxy at the time. The Eldar meanwhile, while more powerful, kept to a very small, extremely dense part of space and didn't expand beyond its borders.
I've never really been able to reconcile the fluff regarding the relative power levels of Eldar at their apex, and Humanity at their apex. Clearly the Eldar relied a lot on their psycic technology (the Eldar at their peak clearly outclassed humanity's psykers, with the exception of only maybe the emperor), but how good was the Eldar's "regular" tech?
Wyzilla wrote: Depends on the status of the Eldar. Pre-Fall Eldar numbered in the quadrillions, potentially a tredecillion total. At one point the Eldar may have even outnumbered the Orks (certainly explains how they made Slaanesh).
Wyzilla wrote: There was nothing holding back humans in the DAOT- they were the supreme rulers of the galaxy at the time. The Eldar meanwhile, while more powerful, kept to a very small, extremely dense part of space and didn't expand beyond its borders.
I've never really been able to reconcile the fluff regarding the relative power levels of Eldar at their apex, and Humanity at their apex. Clearly the Eldar relied a lot on their psycic technology (the Eldar at their peak clearly outclassed humanity's psykers, with the exception of only maybe the emperor), but how good was the Eldar's "regular" tech?
Eldar never had "regular" tech. All of their technology is connected directly to the warp.
The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!
Stalked21 wrote: The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!
Naw. The main thing destroying the Imperium is either it's massive internal security problem (IE Chaos), or the varieties of extremely hungry/extremely pissed aliens arrayed against it.
Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.
At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.
dusara217 wrote:
Emperor could easily have built his own STC, though. He had the knowledge and the intelligence, but he was too busy building armies, building Webways, massacring Xenos, etc. etc.
Ah, no. No, he could not. Even the Emperor did not have an Akashic Link.
Now, if the Horus Heresy hadn't happened and Koriel Zeth had finished her Silver Throne, then the Imperium could have started churning out STCs.
Most Xenos have nothing to offer the Imperium in the long run. Some factions might make short-term use of them as part of a bigger-picture plan, but nothing is going to permit them to allow Xenos to co-exist in the galaxy alongside humanity.
And, yeah, the Emperor was a smart guy, but possessing the entire sum of human knowledge in an easily-portable container that could then be converted into a fabrication facility appears to be beyond even his capabilities.
As much as it seems that the IOM is on the verge of collapse they really aren't. All those threats are equally threatening to each other, orks are fighting Eldar and Chaos as frequently as the IOM. The Nids are a threat to virtually everyone, In my opinion the IOM is surviving rather well all things considered.
Stalked21 wrote: The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!
Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.
At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.
Silverthorne is right. Tau technology could save the Imperium. The pulse rifle is in the same ballpark as the lasgun in ease of manufacture and is a better battle rifle than any other faction's standard infantry weapon. Equipping the Imperial Guard with it instead of the lasgun would make those unending hordes of guardsmen able to outfight the standard infantry of every other faction. Yes, Tau could save the Imperium.
Signet-Powers wrote: We all know that the Imperium is basically doomed. Necrons are practically unstoppable, Orks outnumber humanity severely and the Tyranids are already on their way to Terra. To top it off, the Eldar are willing to start entire centuries long wars for the Imperium in order to protect a single one of their own while Choas just pops up anywhere, even in the most defended of places and turns everything into an uncontrollable mess.
However where there's a will there's a way and no doubt the Imperium has billions of people called Will. So I was wondering what exactly could the Imperium do to survive. Humans are like cockroaches, they will always find a way to survive even if the Imperium doesn't, but I want to know exactly how slim the Imperiums chances are.
It all depends on how GW rewrites the fluff. In the Rogue Trader days, the coming of the Star Child was an item and the Sensei(actual sons of the Emperor) roamed the Imperium, converting Chaos followers away from Chaos.
dusara217 wrote:
Emperor could easily have built his own STC, though. He had the knowledge and the intelligence, but he was too busy building armies, building Webways, massacring Xenos, etc. etc.
Ah, no. No, he could not. Even the Emperor did not have an Akashic Link.
Now, if the Horus Heresy hadn't happened and Koriel Zeth had finished her Silver Throne, then the Imperium could have started churning out STCs.
Interesting. I just read all this for the first time. The akashik reader was organically developed though, not discovered, correct? So unless I'm missing something, someone else could pick up the thread and build one and begin the same process again.
It has a great chance of surviving. It needs a couple things to fall into place, but as a whole, it will most likely survive because it is the center piece of the setting.
The 11th hour that it is in raises tension, but it also sets up the opportunity for victory. Something will happen, likely the return of the Emperor or at least his progression to something greater, that will result in a changed state. The Imperium will likely shrink, with other players taking up positions in former strongholds, but as the Imperium shrinks, those threatening it will begin to deal with each other and fight wars so the Imperium won't have to (as in, Tyranids and orks fighting for spaces vacated by the Imperium for example).
Stalked21 wrote: The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!
Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.
At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.
Silverthorne is right. Tau technology could save the Imperium. The pulse rifle is in the same ballpark as the lasgun in ease of manufacture and is a better battle rifle than any other faction's standard infantry weapon. Equipping the Imperial Guard with it instead of the lasgun would make those unending hordes of guardsmen able to outfight the standard infantry of every other faction. Yes, Tau could save the Imperium.
I personally thinks even that the imperium is destroyed, there will be zealots still holding out. They will be like resistance fighters in some chaos and xenos controlled worlds. Those still faithful to the emperor will still fight back like what the chaos cultist did. 10000 years of imperium influence will not be erased easily. Space marines will still hold out like what chaos space marines did nowadays. And secret cults to the emperor will still be around.
Stalked21 wrote: The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!
Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.
At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.
Silverthorne is right. Tau technology could save the Imperium. The pulse rifle is in the same ballpark as the lasgun in ease of manufacture and is a better battle rifle than any other faction's standard infantry weapon. Equipping the Imperial Guard with it instead of the lasgun would make those unending hordes of guardsmen able to outfight the standard infantry of every other faction. Yes, Tau could save the Imperium.
Any quote on that?
Which part? That pulse weaponry is everywhere in the Tau Empire or that the pulse rifle has a longer range and higher strength than any other standard weapon? Both are Tau Codex.
Which part? That pulse weaponry is everywhere in the Tau Empire or that the pulse rifle has a longer range and higher strength than any other standard weapon? Both are Tau Codex.
That it is as easy to manufacture and supply as the Lasgun.
The Tau Empire's total population is less than that of some systems in the Imperium. While it might be easy to manufacture the pulse rifle for the Tau, that does not mean it will be able to produce them on the scale of demand the Imperium requires.
All of this is moot, though, as all the largest cash-cow armies come from the IoM, and thus nothing is ever going to unseat it as the centerpiece of the setting.
People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.
Anyway,I don't vouch for the Imperium to live. I don't vouch for anything to live, actually - If the End Times of Fantasy can tear up their Warhammer world, an End Time in 40k will most certainly shut everything the feth down. [Very Powerful Resource/Awesome Character] doesn't matter, it's all going down the drain, hard.
My own headcanon is that the world will be rebuild much like in Age of Sigmar (it would make sense for both timelines to have the same general rules), and that in that, everything was Noblebrighted - All factions are broken up all over the planets, where ruins of a time of war loom, ever threathening, but without the Imperium, no one is forced down one road. Chaos was cast out of the world with humanity, and, at least for now, the races are safe from annihilation... And then the Imperium remerges. Goddamnit.
The Wise Dane wrote: People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.
The Wise Dane wrote: People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.
Because that went so well with the Iron Men.
The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.
Besides, right now we're only thinking in the case of an actual war - Some forces can't be beaten like that. So no matter how much the Imperium may survive a direct attack (which, granted, they are very adept at handling), they are still terrible at handling subterfuge, sabotage and conversions. May I remind you about the Night of a Thousand Rebellions? The Alpha Legion is very succesful for a reason.
The Imperium has no way to truly halt a Daemon Incursion, which are becoming more common, no way to lend all their power to kill off anyone - Not even Tau - so they won't have to work with those anymore... frankly, anything out of brute force, the Imperium can't effectively handle it.
Bug bites, bbut slowly and steadily, the Imperium will go down. Also, the Astronomicon is failing. So that's a weakspot to hit for maximum damage.
The Wise Dane wrote: People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.
Because that went so well with the Iron Men.
The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.
The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.
The Wise Dane wrote: People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.
Because that went so well with the Iron Men.
The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.
The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.
Scrap Code is yet to be encountered by the Tau, so they shouldn't have to worry about it for at least a few more decades.
The Wise Dane wrote: People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.
Because that went so well with the Iron Men.
The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.
The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.
Scrap Code is yet to be encountered by the Tau, so they shouldn't have to worry about it for at least a few more decades.
Yes, but if they have massive drone armies then the encounter with Scarp Code is going to be incredibly painful, probably even crippling and ultimately fatal.
The Wise Dane wrote: People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.
Because that went so well with the Iron Men.
The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.
The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.
Scrap Code is yet to be encountered by the Tau, so they shouldn't have to worry about it for at least a few more decades.
Yes, but if they have massive drone armies then the encounter with Scarp Code is going to be incredibly painful, probably even crippling and ultimately fatal.
I could've sworn that there was some way to protect against scrap code, like eliminate the device's ability to receive commands wirelessly, or something like that. I could be wrong, but it seems like it oughta have some kind of counter. How does the Mechanicum battle the Dark Mechanicum?
could've sworn that there was some way to protect against scrap code, like eliminate the device's ability to receive commands wirelessly, or something like that. I could be wrong, but it seems like it oughta have some kind of counter. How does the Mechanicum battle the Dark Mechanicum?
A drone without wireless communications is no longer a drone, it's a "shoot this guy here" balloon.
The AdMech makes use of things like "purity seals" and other items that are believed to protect against such invasions... and because humanity, even Mars, has an overall profound belief in the divinity of the Emperor, and as the Omnissiah, that may permit such things to actually function.
The AdMech has also been combatting scrap-code for thousands and thousands of years, ever since the war with the Iron Men.
DorianGray wrote: The only hope for the IoM is to drop everything and use all their power to exterminate the Tau Empire/Enclaves and the Craftworld Eldar.
They are the biggest threat and the ruin of all humans - people just do not know it yet.
The Tau and Eldar are the greatest threats to humanity you fools.
Not Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, or Orks. You might think the Craftworlders and Tau (and their Xenos subjects like Kroot and Vespids) are intelligent, not-inherently violent races that you can have diplomacy with but they are not.
People often forget that Tau AI isn't actually that much more advanced than 21st century human AI.
Drones aren't sapient, even in large numbers (the old 'networked processing' thing). They're threat/objective/response calculators, but they don't consider philosophy or higher concepts.
Even the Puretide AI isn't truly sapient, its like the sci fi equivalent of a book of Confucius quotes.
TheCustomLime wrote:That depends on a lot of things. If they find a fully functioning STC and manage to secure it for mass dissemination the Imperium's chances would skyrocket. If the Emperor came back their chances would improve. If some of the loyalist Primarchs came back... I don't know. That would probably cue the traitor Primarchs to come back as well. It'd be a wash. If the Eldar and the Imperium decided to settle their differences and work together to defeat chaos that would improve their chances.
All of these things are possible with varying degrees of probability. So we will have to wait and see how GW develops the story if and when they ever do.
The traitor Primarchs wouldn't come back. Those dudes are Demon Princes, they couldn't give a feth less about reality. Abaddon is the real danger.
Silverthorne wrote:
lcmiracle wrote: None, Lasting survival was never an option. It's all the Imperium could do to delay the inevitable.
LOL
The Imperium has the gun to everyone else's head as much as anyone as the gun to ours. Ever heard of the STCs? You find one fully functional STC and it's game over for every xenos scumbag inside the galactic rim. And the Mechanicus has tens of thousands of relentless, fanatical searchers scrying the galaxy, with new fleets being launched every year. Even just a partial STC or one blueprint of one of the millions of super weapons from the DAoT and the game entirely changes. That's assuming the Lion doesn't wake up, that Sanguinus doesn't reincarnate into Mephiston, that Cypher doesn't kill the Emperor and allow him to resurrect, etc, etc. Humans have plenty of doomsday, rocks fall all xenos die tricks as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shoot, one, uno, rogue inquisitor came within a hair's breadth of replicating the cadian pylons and generating a null shock wave that collapsed the eye of terror and walled off that entire chaos incursion. How long do you think before that happens again? Centuries? Clock is ticking for everyone, even Chaos. That's what makes the game so damn exciting.
Except it says that Lion can be awakened at literally any time. I'm not sure about any of this. Every Primarch that has disappeared has said something along the lines of "Yo, I'm leaving, but I'll be back when hell breaks open over our heads and we're all about to die." Russ said it, saying he would join his sons for the Wolftime. Lion said that he would return upon a time of pressing need. This isn't good news... that means that their return will probably be a token one since by the time they begin fighting it'll be too late for anything but death to happen. Death for everyone.
DanielBeaver wrote:So let's say:
1) Working STC is found
2) Guilliman is revived using DAoT tech
3) The Lion wakes up from his nap
4) Vulkan escapes from Trazyn the Infinite's basement
5) Khan slips his bonds and waltzes out of Commorragh
6) Golden Throne finally fails. Terra is overrun by daemons, but then the Emperor curbstomp them, because of course he would.
7) ...
8) Galactic conquest?
...or would the combined might of the Tyranids/Necrons/Orks still be insurmountable?
If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.
So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DorianGray wrote: The Tau and Eldar are the greatest threats to humanity you fools.
Not Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, or Orks. You might think the Craftworlders and Tau (and their Xenos subjects like Kroot and Vespids) are intelligent, not-inherently violent races that you can have diplomacy with but they are not.
Exterminus on all craftworlds and the Tau Empire.
Chaos, Orks, and Tyranids are not a threat.
Explain your point. The Tyrannids eat life for a living, absorbing your best attributes and spitting them back at you. Orks are mushroom spores turned steroid-fueled warriors bent on killing anything. Chaos has four gods and Abaddon behind them.
The Tau are young upstarts, a few tiny virus bombs and they'll be reminded of their proper place. The Eldar can be our space friends. That is, until we win against everyone else. Then, we torpedo their snow globe cities and use their technology to make ourselves better. These two are literally no threat.
BaronIveagh wrote: The Imperiums odds of survival are great as long as sales of Space Marines and Imperial Guard don't dip too much compared to anyone else.
They're literally the poster boys of 40K. Slaanesh will join a convent before Space Marines stop being profitable. That shoulder armor brings all the girls to the yard, mayne.
If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.
So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.
Well, if Russ comes back it's the Wolftime, so let's hope that it never happens and that he stays where he is for ever. Plus, he'd probably ask all of those WAAC lists to hand back their drop pods to the Wolves
The ones who I really believe should return are Corax (to add some more reasonable tactics to the Space Marines), and especially the Lion: he can come back anytime, is a strategic genius and also was the second best primarch in terms of organisation of armies/government systems which would be critical (as much as it pains me to give stuff to the ultramarines, I must acknowledge that the best Primarch organiser was Guillman, with the Lion as close second. Guillman's superior charisma would be useful, but he's a bit less accessible that the Lion right now :( And seeing as poor Saungy is dead...)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DorianGray wrote: The Tau and Eldar are the greatest threats to humanity you fools.
Not Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, or Orks. You might think the Craftworlders and Tau (and their Xenos subjects like Kroot and Vespids) are intelligent, not-inherently violent races that you can have diplomacy with but they are not.
Exterminus on all craftworlds and the Tau Empire.
Chaos, Orks, and Tyranids are not a threat.
Explain your point. The Tyrannids eat life for a living, absorbing your best attributes and spitting them back at you. Orks are mushroom spores turned steroid-fueled warriors bent on killing anything. Chaos has four gods and Abaddon behind them.
He's talking about the tabletop, where eldar and tau are very good (and certanly better than orks and most chaos armies)
The Tau are young upstarts, a few tiny virus bombs and they'll be reminded of their proper place. The Eldar can be our space friends. That is, until we win against everyone else. Then, we torpedo their snow globe cities and use their technology to make ourselves better. These two are literally no threat.
urbanknight4 wrote: If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.
So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
urbanknight4 wrote: If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.
So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
He can barely concentrate on fighting Chaos as it is.
If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.
If that were true, Mankind would have taken over the galaxy in the first few centuries post-Heresy, when the surviving Loyalist Primarchs were still around.
They didn't, so it leads me to conclude that Primarchs just aren't all that.
Also, the High Lords of Terra are not a post-Heresy invention. They exist because the Emperor placed them in power as his senate. They actually do out-rank the Primarchs when it comes to the day-to-day operation of the Imperium, it's what the Emperor told them to do.
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?
I think it's funny that everybody is like "The Primarchs won them all! ALL OF THEM", when much of the Great Crusade actually was won because of the unified Legions - Of course, the Primarchs helped, but they also turned the entire thing around, since they are big dummybutts with emotional, mental and social issues in spades, just like anyone else.
So yeah, put them in front of something and they'll smash it wide open, but set them as leaders and similar and you'll feth it all up.
The Wise Dane wrote: I think it's funny that everybody is like "The Primarchs won them all! ALL OF THEM", when much of the Great Crusade actually was won because of the unified Legions - Of course, the Primarchs helped, but they also turned the entire thing around, since they are big dummybutts with emotional, mental and social issues in spades, just like anyone else.
So yeah, put them in front of something and they'll smash it wide open, but set them as leaders and similar and you'll feth it all up.
Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.
No, Khan is kind of an idiot. If it's not done that way on the open steppes, then it's just not done... never mind the fact that the open steppes don't have any fething industry, no large centers of population, don't have logistical concerns like feeding the people in said large population centers and also defending said population centers from attack.
Speed and raids are nice when you're on the offensive... completely useless in a siege, on either side.
Well, they're just people. Large superhuman beings, but still just leaders. They are good in most things war, but so is a lot of the current leaders of the Imperium: Usarkar Creed, Cato Sicarius, Azrael, Belial, Yarrick... All good leaders. Not so individually powerful as a Primarch, but then again, a Primarch would need resources too, and a war isn't won through simple battles.
Which is the problem with a lot of the Primarchs.... they think tactically, but not strategically (Dorn and Guilleman being obvious exceptions).
Russ is too... Russ... for his own good. He's the type of guy who does something stupidly dangerous and, because God loves a fool and a drunk, escapes serious, crippling injury (or death) and now believes himself to be either extremely talented, extremely tough, or, you know, something other than extremely lucky. One can beat statistics for only so long before becoming a statistic oneself.
You shut your face. Russ is second only to the Emperor, all the other Primarchs be fethed. Who else do you know can quaff an entire barrel of Fenrisian Ale and not bust a gut? That right there, loyal Imperials, is talent. The kind of talent that wins wars.
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?
Someone hasn't read Age of Darkness.
Curze shrugged, the barest rise of one shoulder guard. ‘You will never reach Terra in time to defend it, brother. The warp will not let you. This crusade will not let you. I will not let you. Do you think the archives of future generations will look upon you kindly for your absence?’
Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood. ‘Or will the human descendants of this Imperium look to your legend and whisper of doubt? Will they ask why you were not present to defend the Throneworld, and speak likely lies that perhaps the Lion was not as loyal and true as the mighty, perfect Rogal Dorn? Perhaps the Lion and his Dark Angels waited in the deepest reaches of space, watching, listening, and deciding to join the fight only when an obvious victor emerged.’
The Night Lord’s eyes glinted again, with both amusement and sorrow. ‘That is your fate, Lion. That is your future.’
‘Forgive me, brother.’
Curze tilted his head. ‘For what?’
Corswain was watching both primarchs yet still never saw what happened, such was the speed of the Lion’s movements. One moment the two brothers were speaking – the Lion’s features cast down in contemplation, Curze’s eyes fever-bright as he promised an ignoble fate. The next, Curze’s features twisted into a taut rictus of pain, blood running between his clenched teeth. The Lion held tight to the grip of his blade, buried to the hilt in his brother’s stomach. More than a metre of shining, bloodstained steel thrust from the back of Curze’s armour.
‘For such a dishonourable blow,’ the Lion whispered into Curze’s pale, bleeding face. ‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?
Someone hasn't read Age of Darkness.
Curze shrugged, the barest rise of one shoulder guard. ‘You will never reach Terra in time to defend it, brother. The warp will not let you. This crusade will not let you. I will not let you. Do you think the archives of future generations will look upon you kindly for your absence?’
Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood. ‘Or will the human descendants of this Imperium look to your legend and whisper of doubt? Will they ask why you were not present to defend the Throneworld, and speak likely lies that perhaps the Lion was not as loyal and true as the mighty, perfect Rogal Dorn? Perhaps the Lion and his Dark Angels waited in the deepest reaches of space, watching, listening, and deciding to join the fight only when an obvious victor emerged.’
The Night Lord’s eyes glinted again, with both amusement and sorrow. ‘That is your fate, Lion. That is your future.’
‘Forgive me, brother.’
Curze tilted his head. ‘For what?’
Corswain was watching both primarchs yet still never saw what happened, such was the speed of the Lion’s movements. One moment the two brothers were speaking – the Lion’s features cast down in contemplation, Curze’s eyes fever-bright as he promised an ignoble fate. The next, Curze’s features twisted into a taut rictus of pain, blood running between his clenched teeth. The Lion held tight to the grip of his blade, buried to the hilt in his brother’s stomach. More than a metre of shining, bloodstained steel thrust from the back of Curze’s armour.
‘For such a dishonourable blow,’ the Lion whispered into Curze’s pale, bleeding face. ‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’
That is a beautiful quote.
I'm adding part of that to my sig.
2BlackJack1 wrote: That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."
I wouldn't mind seeing the Eldar ascendant in 40k, but I've always personally preferred the idea of the IoM and craftworlds setting aside their differences and making a united stand against the greater evilsof the galaxy..
They wont, but imagine if they did. The eldar would be great for helping mankind mature as a psychic race while teaching them to defend themselves from the predators of the warp. In addition to this, imagine armies of Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and Imperial Guard bursting from out of nowhere into enemy lines.force organization would be revolutionized and the imperium could rapidly redeploy wherever necessary in force without risking warp jumps. In the fight against Chaos, Seers could easily point out fallen humans and prevent entire worlds from falling, and with access to the Black Library perhaps a coalition can find ways to seal chaos behind barriers like pre-fall era supposedly did. They'd need to be much stronger, but its a start. Honestly allying with each other only strengthens both parties with the only thing to lose being extreme bigotry and pointless killings.
Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.
C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"
He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.
Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.
C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"
He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.
Well, he wasn't so emotionally strong, then. His strategic mind was in a good shape, tho.
Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.
C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"
He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.
He what. I'm sure he was hunting traitors like Russ, I mean... I haven't read his fluff, but just give up on your army? What is this heresy.
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?
Da fuq? Luther went full Chaos, that's the only reason that he was able to cripple the Lion in the first place. Luther was basically mini-Horus. Lion loves the Emperor immensely, as evidenced in the novel Fallen Angels.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Wise Dane wrote: I think it's funny that everybody is like "The Primarchs won them all! ALL OF THEM", when much of the Great Crusade actually was won because of the unified Legions - Of course, the Primarchs helped, but they also turned the entire thing around, since they are big dummybutts with emotional, mental and social issues in spades, just like anyone else.
So yeah, put them in front of something and they'll smash it wide open, but set them as leaders and similar and you'll feth it all up.
Well, considering the fact that the Primarchs were basically teenage Emperors...
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?
Someone hasn't read Age of Darkness.
Curze shrugged, the barest rise of one shoulder guard. ‘You will never reach Terra in time to defend it, brother. The warp will not let you. This crusade will not let you. I will not let you. Do you think the archives of future generations will look upon you kindly for your absence?’
Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood. ‘Or will the human descendants of this Imperium look to your legend and whisper of doubt? Will they ask why you were not present to defend the Throneworld, and speak likely lies that perhaps the Lion was not as loyal and true as the mighty, perfect Rogal Dorn? Perhaps the Lion and his Dark Angels waited in the deepest reaches of space, watching, listening, and deciding to join the fight only when an obvious victor emerged.’
The Night Lord’s eyes glinted again, with both amusement and sorrow. ‘That is your fate, Lion. That is your future.’
‘Forgive me, brother.’
Curze tilted his head. ‘For what?’
Corswain was watching both primarchs yet still never saw what happened, such was the speed of the Lion’s movements. One moment the two brothers were speaking – the Lion’s features cast down in contemplation, Curze’s eyes fever-bright as he promised an ignoble fate. The next, Curze’s features twisted into a taut rictus of pain, blood running between his clenched teeth. The Lion held tight to the grip of his blade, buried to the hilt in his brother’s stomach. More than a metre of shining, bloodstained steel thrust from the back of Curze’s armour.
‘For such a dishonourable blow,’ the Lion whispered into Curze’s pale, bleeding face. ‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’
That is a beautiful quote.
I'm adding part of that to my sig.
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?
Don't you?
Astalan made it up, pure and simple, the hh books confirm this, curze evens tells the lion how he will be seen in the future, and he STILL remains loyal.
He couldn't get to terra to defend it as far as we know so far, he is trapped behind the ruinstorm, he was attacked by Luther, and the loyalist calabanites, they were the traitors, all 50,000 of them, so no, the lion wasn't a traitor, that fluff has been expanded upon and filled out, he is loyal.
If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.
Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?
Don't you?
Astalan made it up, pure and simple, the hh books confirm this, curze evens tells the lion how he will be seen in the future, and he STILL remains loyal.
He couldn't get to terra to defend it as far as we know so far, he is trapped behind the ruinstorm, he was attacked by Luther, and the loyalist calabanites, they were the traitors, all 50,000 of them, so no, the lion wasn't a traitor, that fluff has been expanded upon and filled out, he is loyal.
There couldn't have been more than 10k Marines on Caliban when the Lion attacked it
Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.
C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"
He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.
He what. I'm sure he was hunting traitors like Russ, I mean... I haven't read his fluff, but just give up on your army? What is this heresy.
After the Horus Heresy, Corax remained unable to forget the growling, monstrous aberrations of humanity that he had personally created. When Corax finally managed to rebuild his Legion to anywhere near its pre-Heresy strength, the Horus Heresy had ended and Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes edicts required that the Legion be split into smaller, more flexible 1000-man units known as Chapters. Never again would one man wield the power of an entire Space Marine Legion. Knowing that Guilliman's vision was true, Corax grudgingly split his remaining forces into the new Second Founding Successor Chapters, but after pondering for hours as to what should be done to atone for his sins, he decided to administer the Emperor's Peace to the remaining aberrant Raven Guard mutants personally, praying for both their souls and his. Wracked with guilt following the executions, Corax locked himself in his personal chamber in the Ravenspire, the Raven's Tower, begging for the recently-ascended Emperor's mercy. Nobody knows if Corax received the absolution he prayed for, but a year to the day after he had locked himself into the Ravenspire, he left the tower and the world of Deliverance itself on a course toward the Eye of Terror, never to be seen again
Why is Lionel Johnson kept sleeping then, if he's loyalist?
Corax probalby left for the eye of terror, to join chaos, because he knew the emperor would never forgive him. Same goes for a couple of other loyalists that went to the eye of terror and never returned; they saw what the imperium became, and decided that Horus had been right, and went to to join the Heresy.
A Primarch returning would be a disaster for the IoM. The power hungry church and central governments would never accept his authority over theirs (there were signs of this already in the HH itself as the bureaucracy started to move in after the crusade fleets brought worlds to compliance). Said Primarch would be sent out to war, to win some great victories and ultimately to conveniently "die as a great hero".
For the Primarch's part, the only Primarch who would be remotely happy with the state of the IoM today would be a still-loyal Lorgar, as the IoM has essentially become a giant god-fest. The rest would want to bring change, and the IoM doesn't handle change well at all (change is heresy!).
A Primarch returning would mean civil war, and a full on human civil war is all the various predators circling the proverbial wagons need to land the killing blow.
If Guilliman came back they'd have to listen to him, they owe their existence to the Codex (MATT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD)
2BlackJack1 wrote: That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."
I wouldn't mind seeing the Eldar ascendant in 40k, but I've always personally preferred the idea of the IoM and craftworlds setting aside their differences and making a united stand against the greater evilsof the galaxy..
They wont, but imagine if they did. The eldar would be great for helping mankind mature as a psychic race while teaching them to defend themselves from the predators of the warp. In addition to this, imagine armies of Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and Imperial Guard bursting from out of nowhere into enemy lines.force organization would be revolutionized and the imperium could rapidly redeploy wherever necessary in force without risking warp jumps. In the fight against Chaos, Seers could easily point out fallen humans and prevent entire worlds from falling, and with access to the Black Library perhaps a coalition can find ways to seal chaos behind barriers like pre-fall era supposedly did. They'd need to be much stronger, but its a start. Honestly allying with each other only strengthens both parties with the only thing to lose being extreme bigotry and pointless killings.
You support creating an alliance with... filthy Xenos? Holy emperor.. how? You know what, never mind I'm reporting you to the inquisition for thought crimes.
There can never be cooperation with sub-human Xenos in any way. Not with the Eldar, not with the fish-head Tau, not with the Chaos hating Harlequins, space-trading Demurig, nobody. Only Xenocide awaits them by humanity's eternal grace of extermination. Xenocide is it's own reward. It doesn't matter if its a reality wrenching Chaos Spawn lunging at your throat or cultural (heretical) loving Eldar Craftworld female musician playing an harp - they are both flithy Xenos and an threat to humanity. Plug bolter shells in the heads of both of them indiscriminately. Humanism.
2BlackJack1 wrote: That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."
I wouldn't mind seeing the Eldar ascendant in 40k, but I've always personally preferred the idea of the IoM and craftworlds setting aside their differences and making a united stand against the greater evilsof the galaxy..
They wont, but imagine if they did. The eldar would be great for helping mankind mature as a psychic race while teaching them to defend themselves from the predators of the warp. In addition to this, imagine armies of Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and Imperial Guard bursting from out of nowhere into enemy lines.force organization would be revolutionized and the imperium could rapidly redeploy wherever necessary in force without risking warp jumps. In the fight against Chaos, Seers could easily point out fallen humans and prevent entire worlds from falling, and with access to the Black Library perhaps a coalition can find ways to seal chaos behind barriers like pre-fall era supposedly did. They'd need to be much stronger, but its a start. Honestly allying with each other only strengthens both parties with the only thing to lose being extreme bigotry and pointless killings.
You support creating an alliance with... filthy Xenos? Holy emperor.. how? You know what, never mind I'm reporting you to the inquisition for thought crimes.
There can never be cooperation with sub-human Xenos in any way. Not with the Eldar, not with the fish-head Tau, not with the Chaos hating Harlequins, space-trading Demurig, nobody. Only Xenocide awaits them by humanity's eternal grace of extermination. Xenocide is it's own reward. It doesn't matter if its a reality wrenching Chaos Spawn lunging at your throat or cultural (heretical) loving Eldar Craftworld female musician playing an harp - they are both flithy Xenos and an threat to humanity. Plug bolter shells in the heads of both of them indiscriminately. Humanism.
I hope that was in character, because not allying with the Eldar (and by extension, the Harlequin) is a stupid move. Screw the Tau, though. Communism died 38 thousand millennia ago, no need for silly xenos to start that up again.
As for the Primarchs... Corax is stupid. "I'm gonna leave because I'm guilty, boo hoo!" What the heck is he, a superhuman woman? Space Marines have no feelings, they only know loyalty and sacrifice. Good riddance to that little emotional ball of drama.
I agree that the bureaucracy would be mad at a Primarch's return, but they couldn't do anything about it. If they even consider speaking out against him, they commit heresy directly against the Emperor. And most of the officials know that even entertaining those thoughts is inviting Chaos to feast on them. For this reason, maybe a reasonable Primarch would be optimal. For example, Guilliman. If Russ came back, he would take one look at the bureaucracy, the ecclesiaschy, and the enemies outside... and he would grab his space puppies to wreck the galaxy. All of it, since he hates the bureaucracy, and he would never tolerate their injustices against civilians.
urbanknight4 wrote: As for the Primarchs... Corax is stupid. "I'm gonna leave because I'm guilty, boo hoo!" What the heck is he, a superhuman woman? Space Marines have no feelings, they only know loyalty and sacrifice. Good riddance to that little emotional ball of drama.
It should be noted that the Primarchs were military commanders, not governors of civilian systems. The High Lords of Terra were placed there by the Emperor, to oversee the day-to-day running of his Imperium. The Primarchs, even during the GC, did not have authority over them. The odds of one's return inciting a civil war between them and the High Lords are pretty slim.
There we have it, people. From discussion of fiction to misogony in four pages.
I think misogyny is literally the least of your problems. I'm an advocate for a no tolerance policy of genocide and unwarranted murder, routine conversion of humans to servitors, human sacrifice.... the list goes on. Women should be glad I'm merely saying things and not using them as meatshields like the unfortunate Imperial Guard.
Out of character, take a chill pill. It was an off hand comment in a forum that's hardly known for political correctness.
clamclaw wrote: Well if the HH novels and the Cabal are anything to go by, then humanity is certainly doomed. The theory was that either a) Emperor lives humanity will spread too thin and die out b) Emperor dies and Terra falls, also taking Chaos with it.
But instead what happened was c) Emperor half-dies and war drags on for 10K plus years, strengthening Chaos. With the threat of Chaos not enough Imperial attention can be given to Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Orks. So bad news bears.
You missed something I believe I could be wrong b) the idea is that if the emperor was killed by Horus, that Horus would regret his actions and whip out chaos. Intersteing enough some people think the alpha legion left, because they saw this as the only method to eliminate chaos.(although that is just a theory I heard discussed before) I could have just misheard the correct me if I am blatantly wrong. Nothing against what you said I just thought that was a major part as well to eliminating chaos.
There we have it, people. From discussion of fiction to misogony in four pages.
I think misogyny is literally the least of your problems. I'm an advocate for a no tolerance policy of genocide and unwarranted murder, routine conversion of humans to servitors, human sacrifice.... the list goes on. Women should be glad I'm merely saying things and not using them as meatshields like the unfortunate Imperial Guard.
Out of character, take a chill pill. It was an off hand comment in a forum that's hardly known for political correctness.
Actually, I'd say that calling Corax a woman for his childish behaviour is actually more misandristic than misogynistic. The point isn't to say women are self-absorbed emos - the point of uk4's comment was to say that Corax Wasn't A Man. It's propping up the unrealistic image of what a Real Man should be like and trying to force men into an emotionless, machine-like stereotype.
There we have it, people. From discussion of fiction to misogony in four pages.
I think misogyny is literally the least of your problems. I'm an advocate for a no tolerance policy of genocide and unwarranted murder, routine conversion of humans to servitors, human sacrifice.... the list goes on. Women should be glad I'm merely saying things and not using them as meatshields like the unfortunate Imperial Guard.
Out of character, take a chill pill. It was an off hand comment in a forum that's hardly known for political correctness.
Actually, I'd say that calling Corax a woman for his childish behaviour is actually more misandristic than misogynistic. The point isn't to say women are self-absorbed emos - the point of uk4's comment was to say that Corax Wasn't A Man. It's propping up the unrealistic image of what a Real Man should be like and trying to force men into an emotionless, machine-like stereotype.
There we go, thank you for getting it. It is indeed unrealistic, but that's the point. Space Marines don't need feelings, they were raised and trained to be soldiers. Soldiers, by definition, should only follow orders... and that doesn't include leaving your post simply because you regret your actions or whatever.
Corax, the Primarchs, and the Astartes are all machines- the Emperor's machines. They live for him, fight for him, die for him. And emotions are nice to have, yes. The Space Wolves chapter is cool because of that, they're boisterous and love having fun and care for civvies, but they're still awesome soldiers and are one of the most powerful of the chapters. Thats emotion used right. Rage and a love for fighting turned to fighting prowess.
Bad emotion is stuff like Corax and the Dark Angels. The DA are so ashamed and emotional about their shame that they will disobey orders and sometimes outright kill their allies to pursue the Fallen. Corax left his post because he's a pansy that forgot his place- not to question why, but to carry out the Emperor's will. Hard things must be done in life, whether that is letting a traitor go to finish your mission, or swallowing your remorse to continue serving.
Psienesis wrote: It should be noted that the Primarchs were military commanders, not governors of civilian systems
Except for Sanguinius, Guilliman, the Lion, Russ, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus and probably others. Hell, Sanguinius was being worshiped by a thriving civilization when the Emperor found him. Ferrus Mannus was well on his way to building tech that was better than that of the Mechanicum whilst also building a society of logical people. Fulgrim, well, he's Fulgrim, he took a collapsing planet with no resources and turned it into a thriving planet with lotsa resources. The Lion was effectively ruling all of Caliban when the Emperor found him. Russ was literally the King of his planet, and ruled it effectively. Guillima... shouldn't need explanation. Wasn't Corax building a just government, too, when Emps found him?
Psienesis wrote: It should be noted that the Primarchs were military commanders, not governors of civilian systems
Except for Sanguinius, Guilliman, the Lion, Russ, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus and probably others. Hell, Sanguinius was being worshiped by a thriving civilization when the Emperor found him. Ferrus Mannus was well on his way to building tech that was better than that of the Mechanicum whilst also building a society of logical people. Fulgrim, well, he's Fulgrim, he took a collapsing planet with no resources and turned it into a thriving planet with lotsa resources. The Lion was effectively ruling all of Caliban when the Emperor found him. Russ was literally the King of his planet, and ruled it effectively. Guillima... shouldn't need explanation. Wasn't Corax building a just government, too, when Emps found him?
There's a difference between being made a feudal king of a planet of savages, and being good at managing an interstellar empire. Many of the Primarchs could build governments fit for a world that should supply military to a larger campaign, but they were in no way selfsuffecient. Sanguinius was worshipped, so he was basically put in charge because of his people admiring him, not because he was a good leader. Both Ferrus and Fulgrim made thriving industrial worlds, but they were also terribly streamlined towards this one thing, basically being Forge Worlds (so just a planet-sized factory. Not tough to manage for a superhuman with 230 in IQ). Buth the Lion and Russ were feudal lords, ruling because of them being the biggest and strongest thing on the planet, not because they were good at it, and Corax just made the entire planet fear his judgement - Nostramo even reverted to it's old, chaotic self when Corax where gone.
Only two Primarchs I reckon were actually good at managing governments were Rogal Dorn (who had a smaller empire when he was found) and Guilliman.
In its current state of unable to advance in tech at any decent pace, and with no real leader(s) who can rally the Imperium, it will collapse either from internal problems of unity or external threats. (The latter being more obvious, as it's easier to notice a giant bug eating your face than people plotting against you).
The thread title is a trick question. The Imperium is already dead and rotting from the inside out. Plucky humans and superhumans have managed to carve out niche empires, but the idea that there is any unity or cohesion to a collection of a million planets that are routinely cut off from their government by centuries of warp storms is fundamentally absurd.
