I think we can move beyond that massive N&R thread, where everybody talks over everybody (and they're currently arguing over historical gaming or something). The rules have been well leaked now and the processing begun ...
I think the new rules are amazing. It gives me so much freedom to start loads of unique armies (see my "fun ideas" thread). The simple rules mean I can play with friends who like board games. And free rules mean NO RULEBOOKS (I love it!)
Bottle wrote: I think the new rules are amazing. It gives me so much freedom to start loads of unique armies (see my "fun ideas" thread). The simple rules mean I can play with friends who like board games. And free rules mean NO RULEBOOKS (I love it!)
I am a massive fan. Pass me the circle bases!
You don't need circle bases is you read the rules. The bases could be triangles. I would not waste my money on new bases when you measure from the model
Avian wrote:So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies - Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest - You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units - Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades. - Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think. -- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation. - It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War - You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched. -- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable. - Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up - The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory - Last man standing wins - All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power -- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus - When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs - If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against. -- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds - Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving - You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model. - Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models - If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them. -- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units. -- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase - Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit. - You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase - To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base. -- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs. - Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn. -- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys. - You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner) - Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase - If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves. - Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase - Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable. -- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery. - For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets - Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1". -- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks - Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover - You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty. - A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does. -- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
In terms of my hobbying I am more of a collector and painter of armies rather than a player of the games. However, the rules for AOS just seem severely flawed with a multitude of issues that could have been solved with minimal playtesting.
Do we think that the issues are caused by the apparent (apparent as AOS may just be act 1 in a multiple part play) brevity of the rules? Or is it more that GW just wanted to remove the complexity of their rule set and in doing so actually created a lot of other problems?
Additionally, fliers block movement because most models cannot reach the 0.5" to charge them, but you cannot have your own models within 3" of an enemy unless you are charging.
A series of flying models effectively created a barrier that you enemy models cannot move past but also cannot attack in close combat.
enemy units CAN'T move within 3" (M2M) without charging and when charging they MUST move within 1/2" (M2M).
So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies
- Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest
- You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units
- Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades.
- Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think.
-- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation.
- It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War
- You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched.
-- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable.
- Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up
- The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory
- Last man standing wins
- All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power
-- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus
- When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs
- If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against.
-- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds
- Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving
- You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model.
- Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models
- If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them.
-- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units.
-- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase
- Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit.
- You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase
- To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base.
-- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs.
- Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn.
-- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys.
- You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner)
- Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase
- If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves.
- Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase
- Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable.
-- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery.
- For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets
- Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1".
-- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks
- Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover
- You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty.
- A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does.
-- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
Whoa man, that first block of text (spoilered here for length) sounds really bad.
And the image is just nuts. Oh GW, what were you thinking...
Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
Doug, why can't enemy models get within 1/2" of flyers in your example, what am I missing there? Couldn't they just charge them?
"If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them."
Not true, as long as one model in the unit is withing that 3", everyone in the unit can make the pile in move.
So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies
- Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest
- You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units
- Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades.
- Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think.
-- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation.
- It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War
- You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched.
-- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable.
- Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up
- The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory
- Last man standing wins
- All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power
-- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus
- When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs
- If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against.
-- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds
- Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving
- You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model.
- Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models
- If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them.
-- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units.
-- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase
- Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit.
- You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase
- To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base.
-- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs.
- Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn.
-- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys.
- You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner)
- Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase
- If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves.
- Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase
- Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable.
-- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery.
- For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets
- Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1".
-- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks
- Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover
- You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty.
- A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does.
-- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
Whoa man, that first block of text (spoilered here for length) sounds really bad.
And the image is just nuts. Oh GW, what were you thinking...
Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
Doug, why can't enemy models get within 1/2" of flyers in your example, what am I missing there? Couldn't they just charge them?
Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Samurai_Eduh wrote:"If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them."
Not true, as long as one model in the unit is withing that 3", everyone in the unit can make the pile in move.
Yea, somebody caught that on Warseer too, Avian just didn't update the first post yet.
pretre wrote:
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
I am reminded of jumping up and killing flyers and crap with Kharn in 40k, before Gorechild stopped hitting them on 2+
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
Interestingly, the flying Sigmarites actually touch the base due to the scrolls and bits. No flight stand.
So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies
- Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest
- You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units
- Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades.
- Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think.
-- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation.
- It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War
- You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched.
-- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable.
- Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up
- The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory
- Last man standing wins
- All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power
-- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus
- When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs
- If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against.
-- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds
- Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving
- You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model.
- Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models
- If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them.
-- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units.
-- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase
- Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit.
- You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase
- To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base.
-- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs.
- Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn.
-- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys.
- You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner)
- Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase
- If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves.
- Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase
- Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable.
-- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery.
- For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets
- Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1".
-- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks
- Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover
- You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty.
- A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does.
-- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
Whoa man, that first block of text (spoilered here for length) sounds really bad.
And the image is just nuts. Oh GW, what were you thinking...
Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
Doug, why can't enemy models get within 1/2" of flyers in your example, what am I missing there? Couldn't they just charge them?
Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
Samurai_Eduh wrote:"If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them."
Not true, as long as one model in the unit is withing that 3", everyone in the unit can make the pile in move.
Yea, somebody caught that on Warseer too, Avian just didn't update the first post yet.
pretre wrote:
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
I am reminded of jumping up and killing flyers and crap with Kharn in 40k, before Gorechild stopped hitting them on 2+
- Salvage
I'm just hoping that new Dwarf Dragon Slayer model is tall enough to reach, so I can join in on the "jumping up and killing flyers" fun!
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
The specific example used in the Warseer thread is the High Elf Phoenix model which has a 3" flight stand, making it immune to the vast majority of infantry and monstrous infantry (and created the "invulnerable 3" diameter around the edge of the entire model" zone mentioned above)
RiTides wrote: Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
I've actually been intending to give it a solid go, with a shiny new Counts As army and everything, but now I'm dialing that back further and further. Before reading Avian's post I had decided on a Proxy army (i.e. to be used as whatever semi-elite force that vaguely fits the models) on round-lipped bases (so portable to WM/H and generally better looking), however I'm not sure that's even worth the effort, apart from making a cool little army of models I like. Which is fine, I do love me some hobbying, but it's not usually how I go about designing an army, and I'm not sure I'd have the impetus to get it finished ...
... because I don't really see why I'd want to play WHAOS. I'm struggling to see why we should even go to the lengths of reining in WHAOS to a playable semi-competitive format, when there are so many great games out there.
Current Plan: 1) play some 8E, because I've got a shiny new-ish army and I haven't played much this year 2) get my first Malifaux crew painted and see about actually playing it 3) finish up some big dudes for my DoT (on square bases to match the rest) 4) see the state of WHAOS and decide to either begin proxy project or dip into my Malifaux stock and build crew depth
I'll certainly try WHAOS, probably in the very near future, but I'm not seeing why it deserves much of my attention. Simplicity is not an attraction for me with games - Cards Against Humanity, for example, has completely lost its charm with me and my friends due to being just way too simple. I find Malifaux - and Wrath of Kings, which my club KS'd heavily - look to provide very similar experiences to WHAOS, with a whole lot more depth. -----------------------------------------------
Rihgu wrote: I'm just hoping that new Dwarf Dragon Slayer model is tall enough to reach, so I can join in on the "jumping up and killing flyers" fun!
Is there anything to stop you mounting him on like a 1-2" keg or something? It would give him a 4-5" vertical engagement while still being able to punch stuff at his feet. You could even plop him on a 4" mountain of kegs just to intercept cheeky flyers, while being untouchable by ground units.
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
What if you play dwarfs and your army doesn't have spears. Anything that is flying suddenly becomes invunerable?
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
The specific example used in the Warseer thread is the High Elf Phoenix model which has a 3" flight stand, making it immune to the vast majority of infantry and monstrous infantry (and created the "invulnerable 3" diameter around the edge of the entire model" zone mentioned above)
I don't think this was thought through very well.
The stand is 3" (hence the 3" flight stand) so as long as no part of the model dips below the stand, then we are looking at a max height of 3"
So How tall is the average model? an inch and a half to 2 inches from foot to head? So all the model would need is a raised sword arm (like most of those sigmarines have. The raised arm and hammer giving them an extra inch or so, they can easily reach the fliers.
On a side note, if I were to ever play this game, I would count bases for formations and such because I'm not going to start overlapping my bases with someone else's, especially if they put a lot of time and detail into their base only to have it marked up and broken because other bases get piled on it.
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
What if you play dwarfs and your army doesn't have spears. Anything that is flying suddenly becomes invunerable?
You don't have spears, but you sure do have a lot of shooting weapons...
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
The specific example used in the Warseer thread is the High Elf Phoenix model which has a 3" flight stand, making it immune to the vast majority of infantry and monstrous infantry (and created the "invulnerable 3" diameter around the edge of the entire model" zone mentioned above)
I don't think this was thought through very well.
The stand is 3" (hence the 3" flight stand) so as long as no part of the model dips below the stand, then we are looking at a max height of 3"
So How tall is the average model? an inch and a half to 2 inches from foot to head? So all the model would need is a raised sword arm (like most of those sigmarines have. The raised arm and hammer giving them an extra inch or so, they can easily reach the fliers.
On a side note, if I were to ever play this game, I would count bases for formations and such because I'm not going to start overlapping my bases with someone else's, especially if they put a lot of time and detail into their base only to have it marked up and broken because other bases get piled on it.
Most of the infantry models seen so far (and most WHFB infantry models I've seen in general) take up almost all of thier base. Unless you are using bases bigger than what most models are packed with, I don't forsee the overlapping bases thing even being an issue.
Dark Lord Seanron wrote: I'm still a bit concerned about the lack of points or balancing rules here? It's literally play as much as you like?
Isn't there vicotry rules for outnumbering your opponent? Horde armies are going to chew that up surely?
Ha! Maybe they figured since they can't write balanced rules they figured "Well if you don't think the game's balance, then just bring more models, that'll balance it!" LOL
Dark Lord Seanron wrote: I'm still a bit concerned about the lack of points or balancing rules here? It's literally play as much as you like?
Let's say for now that no points are going to be on the upcoming warscroll dump that covers the existing range of models. I feel this will be the case but there are still those holding out hope.
Next, let's say there's no limit on number of warscrolls either. The feeling is that scenarios will somehow limit overall number of 'scrolls, which makes sense to me as well, but we haven't seen a scenario yet, so won't know until we do. Word is those are in the 96-page book in the starter, along with background.
With no points and unlimited warscrolls (and no factions truly limiting you), yep, sure looks like you could literally play with as many and whatever models you want to. In this vacuum (of unlimited 'scrolls), the deciding factor of how many models are in a game looks like it'll be decided in two steps. When deploying, you take it in turns to deploy units, until one player has decided they're done deploying (or run out of space). That's step one. Next, the other player can continue deploying until they decide they're good.
The caveat here is the Sudden Death rule. If one side has a third more models than the other, than the smaller army can choose an extra victory condition, apart from just wiping out the enemy army entirely. Having two victory conditions, one of which results in an immediate major victory, is clearly awesome.
Therefore, the second player will often want to stop deploying when they hit 133% of the enemy model count - in other words, a fraction shy of a third larger. This way they have a bonus in models over the first player, without providing Sudden Death possibilities. That, or they take sooooo many models to ensure they can table the enemy army without being tabled or Sudden Deathed first.
So that appears to be how armies actually amass. It's pretty clear how to put some control on the process - set a min and max model count, for starters - but those aren't in the RAW.
Isn't there vicotry rules for outnumbering your opponent? Horde armies are going to chew that up surely?
If you take the above deployment process - stopping when you've got the smallest number of nasty models on the table - and combine it with a few other rules (the Battleshock rules in particular), it's pretty clear that WAOS favors elite armies of units made up of single models. This is where limits on the number of warscrolls could / will help control how min/maxed armies are. For example, given the option and unlimited 'scrolls, it seems like you should always take units of 1, where that single model looks to often be a free champ (as well as immune to Battleshock, etc). Synergy effects - command abilities that affect 1 unit for example, not all units or models within X" - will do some to reign in this spamming too, but we've seen very few examples of keyword synergy effects thus far.
These sound.......bad......realy really bad.
Like really bad.
time to make my tentacle themed army that has tentacles streching from one end of the table to aqnother
Isn't there vicotry rules for outnumbering your opponent? Horde armies are going to chew that up surely?
If you take the above deployment process - stopping when you've got the smallest number of nasty models on the table - and combine it with a few other rules (the Battleshock rules in particular), it's pretty clear that WAOS favors elite armies of units made up of single models. This is where limits on the number of warscrolls could / will help control how min/maxed armies are. For example, given the option and unlimited 'scrolls, it seems like you should always take units of 1, where that single model looks to often be a free champ (as well as immune to Battleshock, etc). Synergy effects - command abilities that affect 1 unit for example, not all units or models within X" - will do some to reign in this spamming too, but we've seen very few examples of keyword synergy effects thus far.
- Salvage
Wouldn't be so sure about the units of 1, it looks like the ward saves are gone as well, and single model units could be easily brought down with a few sorcerers casting the bolt spell, D3 automatic wounds on a single model will destroy single model units, other spells or special weapons with mortal wound rule could prevent heroes only "armies"
But so far it doesn't seem to matter if a unit dies, as only models matter. Right? There's no kill points or something suggesting otherwise. Victory conditions, Sudden Death, all these things only care about models. Even the bolt you referenced only zaps one model - so whether that model is in a unit of 1 or 20, just that model is affected. If he dies, so be it - there are dozens more single model units like him roving around.
On the flipside, more units of fewer models seem to benefit from the rules in various ways. A complete 180 from 8E, where the rules definitely benefit fewer units of more models, again in a variety of ways.
Again, it's gotta be either warscroll limitations or whole unit synergy effects that give more impetus to running larger units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bam! Formations give us reasons to field units of more than one:
(Because units within the formation gain an advantage, and you can't add units within the formation, just models within the units that allow it.)
Ahhh, I saw this coming with the 40k formations and detachments.
No longer will models be sold as individuals or single unit box sets. You will be made to spend $100+ at a time buying the entire formation in 1 go from a box set.
From looking at the models and the rules, this game seems like one of the worst mini wargames ever made. I agree with the sentiment of playing once and getting really bored with it.
MWHistorian wrote: This sounds like a game you'd play a few times and get bored with it really quick.
Agreed. Very little tactical flexibility, certainly compared to 8th edition.
It seems to me like GW have designed this as a very casual, "beer and pretzels" game - and that's how they're selling it. Now, that's fine, but you could at least create some decent rules for it, for people who want to play a bit more seriously. 40k is actually a fantastic example of an in-depth (if a little unbalanced) game that can be, and is, still played very casually.
I was initially fairly relieved and even excited hearing a lot of the rumours/confirmations that have landed in the past few days (no compulsory round bases, for example), however these rules are simply terrible, and have put my enthusiasm for the release right down, if true. It may be worth seeing if the AoS rules can be adapted from or combined with the LotR rules (which are actually quite good and are of a similar style).
The one thing I am wondering with the rules right now is how do we avoid our characters getting sniped? I don't think we have seen a footslogger character's warscroll yet. Maybe they can join units with certain keywords.
MWHistorian wrote: This sounds like a game you'd play a few times and get bored with it really quick.
I haven't played it yet and I am bored already. This game is going to be the biggest flop of 2015. My group already said there is no way in hell that we are going to play this game on a Friday night.
Thanks for the writeup of your thoughts last page Salvage, and yeah... I was very open to this but everything I've seen has made me start looking elsewhere. Curious how the Darklands rulebook will look when it releases (hopefully this summer). But what to use all these chaos dwarfs for now...!? Of course that's always been a problem for long-suffering CD fans, it's just now more people will be joining in that conundrum.
RiTides wrote: Thanks for the writeup of your thoughts last page Salvage, and yeah... I was very open to this but everything I've seen has made me start looking elsewhere. Curious how the Darklands rulebook will look when it releases (hopefully this summer). But what to use all these chaos dwarfs for now...!?
Definitely true, Rihgu - the only issue with that was, I stopped playing fantasy in early 8th and was waiting for "9th" to lure me back in... and AoS obviously isn't really opening the door wide for my chaos dwarfs, even if warscrolls do get put out for the FW units.
I've seen leaked images of the starter set warscrolls. If the melee weapons have a range of 1" the post of the ogre and chaos warrior in base to base and not being able to fight is wrong I think. Even measuring from model to model. Assuming that a warhammer has a range of 1" the probability of a spear or halberd having a 2" range is not out of the realm of possibility.
Hückleberry wrote: I've seen leaked images of the starter set warscrolls. If the melee weapons have a range of 1" the post of the ogre and chaos warrior in base to base and not being able to fight is wrong I think.
The example is slightly confusing. In the example, that charge has ended up with more than 1/2" between the models, and is therefore not be legal, regardless of weapon reach. Therefore, the models would not actually end up in that position because with a failed charge you don't move.
The example was made to illustrate what the charge requirements actually are, because even after being told that you measure model to model, I belive that a lot of people are thinking that this is the same as base to base. With some models, you won't be able to charge them without moving on top of their bases.
Another oddity I found today: Turning my Wyvern 180 degrees on the spot costs 7" of movement and doesn't come with any advantages.
@avian ahhh I miss took the example, Thanks for clarifying. Yeah that 1/2 in needs to be errata or house ruled lol. I just saw some leaked images of the new models assembled and judging by how robust the model is the 1/2 in shouldn't be a problem on a round base by my little empire swordsmen on a square base is going to be hurting and needing a house rule.
Hückleberry wrote: I've seen leaked images of the starter set warscrolls. If the melee weapons have a range of 1" the post of the ogre and chaos warrior in base to base and not being able to fight is wrong I think.
The example is slightly confusing. In the example, that charge has ended up with more than 1/2" between the models, and is therefore not be legal, regardless of weapon reach. Therefore, the models would not actually end up in that position because with a failed charge you don't move.
The example was made to illustrate what the charge requirements actually are, because even after being told that you measure model to model, I belive that a lot of people are thinking that this is the same as base to base. With some models, you won't be able to charge them without moving on top of their bases.
Another oddity I found today: Turning my Wyvern 180 degrees on the spot costs 7" of movement and doesn't come with any advantages.
I didn't find anything in the rules about facing mattering and I also didn't find anything that corroborated that 7" move to change facing. You can move in whatever direction you like any number of inches you like (up to your movement characteristic), and there is no reason why you couldn't just rotate the model during its movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless: Avian are you talking about the part that says that "No part of the model may move further than the model's move characteristic"?
Yeah, that warscroll shows a very LotR like direction, which, due to its simplicity, is something I sort of saw coming. Evidently looking up what you need to wound on a chart is beyond GW's target market .
Still, LotR's simplicity was a good thing and, with the other rules, actually made for a great game, so let's hope this is the same (though judging by the 4 pages we've seen that's not going to be the case, if that is it) and, to be fair, I can see a lot of people (especially young people) being pleased with or attracted by these rules. Again, it's probably a decent business move from GW.
PhantomViper wrote: I didn't find anything in the rules about facing mattering and I also didn't find anything that corroborated that 7" move to change facing. You can move in whatever direction you like any number of inches you like (up to your movement characteristic), and there is no reason why you couldn't just rotate the model during its movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless: Avian are you talking about the part that says that "No part of the model may move further than the model's move characteristic"?
Correct, rotating a model costs movement as parts of the model move. Otherwise you will get a supremely unfair advantage by pivoting for free, since measurement is now always done from the closest parts of the models themselves.
PhantomViper wrote: I didn't find anything in the rules about facing mattering and I also didn't find anything that corroborated that 7" move to change facing. You can move in whatever direction you like any number of inches you like (up to your movement characteristic), and there is no reason why you couldn't just rotate the model during its movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless: Avian are you talking about the part that says that "No part of the model may move further than the model's move characteristic"?
Correct, rotating a model costs movement as parts of the model move. Otherwise you will get a supremely unfair advantage by pivoting for free, since measurement is now always done from the closest parts of the models themselves.
Ok, I can see that.
Guess there will be lots of sideways and butt attacks in this game then.
I don't understand - are there point cost or are there not? Is it really field any and everything you can fit into your deployment zone?
Also, if I have 5 models. I have several different ways to field them? Like 5 units of 1 model, 1 unit of 5 models, 2 units of 2 models and 1 unit of 1???
Colehkxix wrote: I would completely ignore the part where it says the base doesn't count as part of the model. It just makes things difficult for no reason.
I agree. Measuring from bits of the model opens up all sorts of potential difficulties. Much easier to measure from the edge of the base, especially as all models will be based on standard size bases.
@Azeroth, as far as we can see at the moment, there are no points costs. If players want a balanced game they will need to judge by the scrolls for their units how strong they are.
Azeroth wrote: I don't understand - are there point cost or are there not? Is it really field any and everything you can fit into your deployment zone?
Also, if I have 5 models. I have several different ways to field them? Like 5 units of 1 model, 1 unit of 5 models, 2 units of 2 models and 1 unit of 1???
I
That's what I've heard, and that you get bonuses if you have less models than your opponent.
Azeroth wrote: Also, if I have 5 models. I have several different ways to field them? Like 5 units of 1 model, 1 unit of 5 models, 2 units of 2 models and 1 unit of 1???I
Yep. And in most cases one dude is a free champ (which seem to have +1A across the board so far). So that'd be 5x 1 champ, or 1x 1 champ + 4 grunts, or 2x 1 champ + 1 grunt and 1x 1 champ.
Had a look at the 96 page book today, and there are already quite a few buffs that target a single unit, just in these two forces and their limited unit options. So if you want to go the synergy route - which is absolutely what army building is based around in this thing - you're going to want to keep focused around a few shared keywords and not necessarily spam tiny units. Sadly, it totally looks like we'll see armies made up of 1-2 formations. And spoiler: Sigmarines and Khorne Dudes have only one formation each in the book, and it includes all the units in the box.
There's a 96 page book too? I kinda though that they might do a book for it, but hadn't actually heard anything about it... Is it 96 pages of more in-depth rules? Or different formations? Or just fluff?
So, if I take twenty goblins and my opponent takes 21 chaos Knights I need to ensure I stop deploying really quickly or I'll never get the sudden death rule I'd need to stand even a remote chance of winning?
Obviously it wouldn't be as simple an army as that but it's still a bit pants
ahzek wrote: So, if I take twenty goblins and my opponent takes 21 chaos Knights I need to ensure I stop deploying really quickly or I'll never get the sudden death rule I'd need to stand even a remote chance of winning?
Obviously it wouldn't be as simple an army as that but it's still a bit pants
Who knows chaos knights and goblins both might need +4s to hit and +4s to wound. They could have all kinds of reasons fluff wise to buff the weaker units. From being corrupted by magics to being tougher for surviving the end times so far. for all we know in AoS goblins and chaos knights will have very similar stats on the warscrolls. Also with no strength modifiers (except for rend) to armor save who's to say that I don't get hot dice and have 3 goblins tank all your attacks that wounded? I just think people are getting crazy with all these assumptions based on 8th edition stats. Obviously its an entirely new game. Who is to say that the prosecutor warscroll(see above) is not the normal for all basic units from different armies?
RiTides wrote: Thanks for the writeup of your thoughts last page Salvage, and yeah... I was very open to this but everything I've seen has made me start looking elsewhere. Curious how the Darklands rulebook will look when it releases (hopefully this summer). But what to use all these chaos dwarfs for now...!? Of course that's always been a problem for long-suffering CD fans, it's just now more people will be joining in that conundrum.
I have high hopes for Darklands. A few friends and I went deep into to the game... I've got like 4 largish armies at this point. We've played it a few times with their Quickstart rules and so far have liked it, as it's a much more "realistic" feeling game. I definitely foresee us moving over to mainly that and Kings of War / 8th, since AOS is just horrendous.
ahzek wrote: So, if I take twenty goblins and my opponent takes 21 chaos Knights I need to ensure I stop deploying really quickly or I'll never get the sudden death rule I'd need to stand even a remote chance of winning?
Obviously it wouldn't be as simple an army as that but it's still a bit pants
Who knows chaos knights and goblins both might need +4s to hit and +4s to wound. They could have all kinds of reasons fluff wise to buff the weaker units. From being corrupted by magics to being tougher for surviving the end times so far. for all we know in AoS goblins and chaos knights will have very similar stats on the warscrolls. Also with no strength modifiers (except for rend) to armor save who's to say that I don't get hot dice and have 3 goblins tank all your attacks that wounded? I just think people are getting crazy with all these assumptions based on 8th edition stats. Obviously its an entirely new game. Who is to say that the prosecutor warscroll(see above) is not the normal for all basic units from different armies?
That makes sense, though the examples I gave were just that, examples. I'd be surprised if the data scrolls make all things equal
The one thing I am wondering with the rules right now is how do we avoid our characters getting sniped? I don't think we have seen a footslogger character's warscroll yet. Maybe they can join units with certain keywords.
If it's anything like Lord of The Rings, nothing. They're just built like brick outbuildings, with many wounds and a good save.
I'll give it a try. I'm too intrigued by a starting setting which appears to be knorne vs asgard not to give it a closer look. And I've been proven wrong by underestimating games that I didn't think had much tactics to them before - Warhammer Diskwars, for example, is actually bloody good fun and has a lot more strategy to it than you think.
ahzek wrote: So, if I take twenty goblins and my opponent takes 21 chaos Knights I need to ensure I stop deploying really quickly or I'll never get the sudden death rule I'd need to stand even a remote chance of winning?
Obviously it wouldn't be as simple an army as that but it's still a bit pants
Who knows chaos knights and goblins both might need +4s to hit and +4s to wound. They could have all kinds of reasons fluff wise to buff the weaker units. From being corrupted by magics to being tougher for surviving the end times so far. for all we know in AoS goblins and chaos knights will have very similar stats on the warscrolls. Also with no strength modifiers (except for rend) to armor save who's to say that I don't get hot dice and have 3 goblins tank all your attacks that wounded? I just think people are getting crazy with all these assumptions based on 8th edition stats. Obviously its an entirely new game. Who is to say that the prosecutor warscroll(see above) is not the normal for all basic units from different armies?
That makes sense, though the examples I gave were just that, examples. I'd be surprised if the data scrolls make all things equal
I too would be surprised. Obviously with no stats and, that I can see, weapon bonuses outside of special rules, things will be a lot more even but I still can't see a goblin standing up to a chaos knight - and rightly so. The only thing I can think of that GW could - and should - do to fix these potential discrepancies is with formations of multiple "horde" models and say that it only counts as one warscroll or something (so whereas one formation warscroll would be five chaos knights, and equivalent may be forty goblins), or by special rules which give bonuses to "horde" models with regards to model count bonuses or Sudden Death (whatever that is - I'm still not sure...)
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
This made my day.
There's so much fail in what that picture represents, I simply can't try to take this AoS gak seriously any longer.
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
This made my day.
There's so much fail in what that picture represents, I simply can't try to take this AoS gak seriously any longer.
You don't even need to make the bases overlap, if the distance rolled would get it within 1/2", the charge succeeds. Also if either one of those models were placed in the center of thier base the charge would have been fine. I've tried this with several models of various sizes and didn't have a problem getting within 1/2". This photograph was staged. Pathetic, really.
Samurai, many models don't fill out their bases, though... I'm thinking of my Hellcannons in particular... the idea that people would overlap models bases is just insane to me!
Just noting: As you're supposed to measure from one model to another, 1 inch range weapons would mean that a model would have to be in base contact with another model.
Bearing that in mind, note that what would be 1 inch using the rules as written would be base contact, 2 inches would allow the 2nd row of a tightly packed formation to attack, and 3 inches would allow the 3rd row of a tightly packed formation to attack.
So make sure, if you use bases for measurement, not to give your guys extra range. Reduce the range of weapons accordingly.
I think measuring from the feet is easiest. Most models' feet are in roughly the same place and it rules out any shenanigans from outstretched weapons and the like, whilst still fitting in with the AoS rules and any difference in bases. And if there's a situation where bases would have to overlap, I'd imagine you'd simply put them base to base and call it at that.
Kilkrazy wrote: Measuring from the base is easiest. All of the bases are regular defined sizes.
This.
Measuring model to model is patently ludicrous. It's a mini game design 101 no-no that how you model your mini should not have in game benefit or detriment aside from WYSIWYG weapons if the system calls for that. The justification where i put the mini on my base should not make it harder for my mini to be charged.
Also the entirety of the moving / charging / "when you are and are not in melee" / "when you can and cannot move due to proximity to enemy models" rules are just horsegak bad from a design point.
I really hope the 4 page rules are just a super dumbed down starter set, and there's a more fleshed out book coming. Doesn't need to be 150 pages, but it really needs to be more than 4.
Time will tell, I suppose. I don't think actually it is impossible to achieve a decent ruleset in four pages. Most of the problems with AOS are caused by bad design choices rather than lack of space.
If they added another couple of pages they could include Command and Control, and alternative activation systems, but I don't think GW care about adding tactical interest to the rules.
Does the to hit and to wound stay exactly the same regardless of what they are hitting? Like 4+ to hit a goblin and still 4+ to hit a Lord?
Looks that way. I'd imagine lots of models - especially tough, character models (and I'm thinking maybe Nurgle too?) - and weapons/armour will have special rules that give adverse to hit/wound modifiers on models attacking them.
I can't play it in public and I can't play it with other people. You can eat other people's models, stab them and be forced not to kneel the game or you will lose.
Someone said it in the news and rumours thread. They may be lying, but I could tell you.
I can say that, if you use Marius the mad count, you get bonuses for pretending to ride and talk to an invisible horse. If you use Konrad vin Carlson, you gain bonuses for talking to him, and even more if he talks back.
So he could be lying, but they actually fit in with the new rules.
welshhoppo wrote: Someone said it in the news and rumours thread. They may be lying, but I could tell you.
I can say that, if you use Marius the mad count, you get bonuses for pretending to ride and talk to an invisible horse. If you use Konrad vin Carlson, you gain bonuses for talking to him, and even more if he talks back.
So he could be lying, but they actually fit in with the new rules.
I've seen those, yea. There's rules for generally hamming it up (if you wear a hood or win a staring contest, your Night Goblin boss gets bonuses, if you challenge your opponent all orcy-like, your orc general gets a bonus, if you grumble about the good old days, Dwarf Longbeards get bonuses) but none of them ever involve touching your opponents or their models that I have seen. Honestly, if they WERE doing that, you'd think the Giants ability where he puts an enemy in his pants would require you to actually put a model in your pants.
HAnd oF dust
It is said that the touch of Nagash can wither and age any mortal, turning them to little more than a pile of dusty bones
in mere moments. Hand of Dust has a casting value of 8. If successfully cast, pick an enemy model within 3". Then, take a dice and hide it in one of your hands. Hold your hands in front of your opponent and ask them to pick one. If they pick the one holding the dice, their model dodges the attack. If not, the model is turned to dust and is slain!
And it doesn't say 2d6, it says two dice. Find some d20s and roll them.
RatBot wrote: "Braying Warcry: Red-hot rage festers in
the savage minds of Wargors, their only
desire to rend and destroy. You can add 1
to all hit rolls made for a Wargor if, before
rolling the dice, you let loose a primal
warcry. Your warcry must use no actual
words, but angry grunts and raging snorts
are encouraged."
"Pride of the Reiksguard: Helborg’s
skill is as legendary as his moustache is
magnificent. You can re-roll any failed hit
rolls when attacking with the Runefang
so long as you have a bigger and more
impressive moustache than your opponent."
The Mad Count: Marius Leitdorf is an
exceptional swordsman, even if he is totally
insane. If, during your hero phase, you
pretend to ride an imaginary horse, you
can re-roll failed hit rolls for the Averland
Runefang until your next hero phase. If
you actually talk to your imaginary horse
you can re-roll failed wound rolls as well.
Imagine, just for a moment, that someone had posted those rules three months ago as rumours. What sort of reception do you think they'd have got?
People would be wondering if they were in one of Kid_Kyoto's threads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And my personal favourite.
And He Did Say ‘War’, and the World Did Tremble...: If Settra the Imperishable uses this ability, you must hold out your hand and utter ‘War’ in a supremely commanding tone. If you do, then until your next hero phase you can add 1 to all hit rolls for Death units in your army that are within 18" of Settra in the combat phase. If a Deathrattle unit is affected by this ability, you can also add 1 to their wound rolls in the combat phase. However, if Settra is your general, you must not kneel for any reason during the battle. If you do, even once, you immediately lose the battle. Settra does not kneel!
SJM wrote: Right I'm very confused... take this for example -
War Boar
Some Orc Warbosses ride to battle on War Boars; these models have Move 9" instead of 5" and gain the War Boar’s Tusks attack.
So obviously it is better to be mounted on a War boar, but as I understand it, there are no points.... so if your warboss is on a war boar he is better but is the same value as the Warboss on foot? Is there a down side to being on a Warboar? Or has this just made every Orc Warboss model not on a Warboar obsolete?
HAnd oF dust
It is said that the touch of Nagash can wither and age any mortal, turning them to little more than a pile of dusty bones
in mere moments. Hand of Dust has a casting value of 8. If successfully cast, pick an enemy model within 3". Then, take a dice and hide it in one of your hands. Hold your hands in front of your opponent and ask them to pick one. If they pick the one holding the dice, their model dodges the attack. If not, the model is turned to dust and is slain!
And it doesn't say 2d6, it says two dice. Find some d20s and roll them.
"Sigh" - would anyone try to pull that in another game - also IIRC the first page of the rules says use D6's - guess 4 pages is too much for people to read................
welshhoppo wrote: Someone said it in the news and rumours thread. They may be lying, but I could tell you.
I can say that, if you use Marius the mad count, you get bonuses for pretending to ride and talk to an invisible horse. If you use Konrad vin Carlson, you gain bonuses for talking to him, and even more if he talks back.
So he could be lying, but they actually fit in with the new rules.
I haven't seen stabbed or kneel, but there is a benefit to having Konrad Von Carstein talk back to you, there is a stupid moustache one, there is one for the masque of slaneesh if you're dancing, wulfrik the wanderer gets bonuses if you make someone lose their poker face by ... insulting them (i am not even gaking you), and a couple others.
RiTides wrote: Thanks for the writeup of your thoughts last page Salvage, and yeah... I was very open to this but everything I've seen has made me start looking elsewhere. Curious how the Darklands rulebook will look when it releases (hopefully this summer). But what to use all these chaos dwarfs for now...!? Of course that's always been a problem for long-suffering CD fans, it's just now more people will be joining in that conundrum.
I have high hopes for Darklands. A few friends and I went deep into to the game... I've got like 4 largish armies at this point. We've played it a few times with their Quickstart rules and so far have liked it, as it's a much more "realistic" feeling game. I definitely foresee us moving over to mainly that and Kings of War / 8th, since AOS is just horrendous.
And you know, as much as people point to GeeDub's minis as justification for playing AOS ... I vastly prefer the Dark Lands aesthetic, naughty bits and all
The downside of course is that I don't particularly want to play a skirmish fantasy game right now. Malifaux is close enough for me, and I do have WoK should I need me some.
The 40k and Fantasy rules have often been described as bloated,fat and more complicated then necessary. The solution SHOULD have been to put the game on basically a diet and make it more streamlined like LOTR. Instead they cut away all the flesh and left us with the skeleton of fantasy. Four pages of skeleton.
what's the point of doing conversions any more? everything is given "rules" that are wysiwyg with the box for that specific model… i think?
where's the customization?
this seems like a huge step away from the previous game. and as a 40k player as well, i'm wondering why they moved this far in this direction, and if they will do the same to 40k.
currently, i'm not psyched, but hopeful i guess...
