I thought the point of AoS was to "lower" the introduction price and attract a new consumer base. $33 for a small metal template is ridiculous. The dice shakers have enough flair and craftsmanship + dice to maybe warrant if your a hardcore fan, but even then its just a painted resin cup for $40.
Not to mention the model prices...AoS box decent bargain....5 stormcast eternals for $50 bucks not. AoS just sxreams of the biggest cash grab ever, lets not even mention the $27 army spay.

With the $40 price tag, I honestly thought the dice shakers would be leather......HOWEVER, after reading that they were resin, I gotta tell you the truth. Resin ain't cheap. Granted GW is probably having them produced in Asia, but the shipping fees to England and the UK are very high. Do I think $40 for a resin cup covered in ornaments and painted is a good price? No, not really. I used to create resin-cast art figures/toys, and the cost of the resin that I used was fairly steep (from an artistic material stand-point). I dunno. I got mixed feelings about the price posted.

Saw 250 for the starter box just a minute ago. This game is not meant for the casual gamer it seems. The low model count/high cost is really going to push people away. I don't really understand GW's logic on this. A paint set and other things of that nature I understand a bit but this.....


OK after going back and double checking the website the starter is listed as 125 not 250 like I originally thought. Some how my browser switched to Australia as my main and not US. My bad

The starter set is a "decent" bargain? It's being sold for 125$.

5 of those stormcast dudes are $50 ($38 for Poland, probably will be $35 at local gaming store prices as we only have one official GW store but lots of FLGSes).

Even if you count them at $30 being the price you would want them for, you would still pay more than 125$ for just the sigmarine side (two units of liberators, one unit of not-Imperius-at-all guys and one unit of those hammertimers along with a boss on dragon chicken), then add 20 marauders, 5 elite khornzerkers, a monster and the chaos lord.

I'm not counting the scenario/fluff book or aids(heh!) in the box.

Really, the box is a massive bargain right now. Sure, you don't get all the weapon options, but still you literally buy all those minis at less than half the price.

I said I was going to buy it, but I the boxed set, but I didn't. I got to my LGS and remembered all the awesome historical miniatures I could be getting for that price. Came home with a bunch of 28mm Celts.

In regards to the dice shaker, yes that's expensive, but I don't hear people crying about this: http://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/germany/products/bolt-action-german-army-dice-bag-dice

True, it does come with some dice, but still. I'm not defending prices, but other things are pretty high too, but they all tend to be vanity items.

 NecroPunk wrote:
With the $40 price tag, I honestly thought the dice shakers would be leather......HOWEVER, after reading that they were resin, I gotta tell you the truth. Resin ain't cheap. Granted GW is probably having them produced in Asia, but the shipping fees to England and the UK are very high. Do I think $40 for a resin cup covered in ornaments and painted is a good price? No, not really. I used to create resin-cast art figures/toys, and the cost of the resin that I used was fairly steep (from an artistic material stand-point). I dunno. I got mixed feelings about the price posted.

You can buy resin or polystone dragon sculptures as big as these dice cups and even more detailed in stores in the malls here for about 15- 20 bucks.

Those cups could just as easily be cast from plastic without a boutique GW price. Hell. In plastic you can get a freaking Serenity from Firefly for that price!

Expect higher prices for all future WH-AOS releases. Requiring less models for a game means GW can jack the prices of all future life up higher.

And the people will cheer.

It's probably true that the $50 box of Sigmarines will have lots of different unit options contained within.

But if I do not have any wish to field archers, I would rather have a separate $30 box of guys with hammers, and a $30 box of guys with bows. Then for a little more you can have twice as much, or for almost half, you don't have dross you paid for but don't want.

I want to say that GW doesn't seem to see how the lower prices would sell like hotcakes (something a fledgling system needs to get off it's feet), but then the pessimist in me says, "No stupid, they know that. They just know that after years of indoctrination, that the higher prices will sell like hotcakes too".

60$ Canadian for 5 minis? Yeah I'll stick with my Empire army thanks.

Not exactly the best way to get new players in with 12$/model kits..

There's a difference between stuff you need and stuff you want. In no universe do you need the dice shaker or measuring... thing... for the game

The only question is, is there a universe in which you WANT either? Because if you don't the price is irrelevant. I wouldn't have bought either of them for $10, so it's like, "Whatever" on the price. I rank those gizmos up there with the "bits box" and "water pot" -- which are just a chocolate tin and a coffee mug, for whatever silly price they were at.

The models, on the other hand. I think they are USD $50 for 5 models, or $10 per model. Again, compare with AoS's closest comparable game. $10 per model for WMH is pretty cheap. That's the price of old metal minis -- 30mm base ones, to boot.

You go back to the whole thing... if you need fewer models, the price of the models can now be higher... right? Before AoS, everyone was saying how great the buy-in for WMH at sub-$300 was a great thing (or sub-$400, if you wanted a big model tossed in there). Now, it's possible with Age of Sigmar, too.

GW seem to be going for investment in the icing hoping people won't mind the taste of the cake. They can make the most beautiful models, dice shakers, artwork they want, but for me to part with my money, which I am itching to do by the way, there has to be a game for me to use all these trinkets with. And at the moment, there isn't.

If they had made an innovative game, the accessories would have flown off the shelves.

The £20 "combat guage" make me choke on my own laughter.

appalled by GW price gouging? shame on you if you think this is new.

This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

I'd have bought the combat gauge for about £8, and the dice shaker for about £12, but as they currently are I looked at the prices, swore rather loudly, and put the white dwarf back. Even with the GW tax, they should be a lot cheaper than they are

Just saw it....£20...for..that.



wtf thats £10 off a full warmachine set.

It is a "necklace" with MAGNETS it is a high fashion item made out of metal so is justified...

Am I a bad person if I prefer my Yahtzee cup to theirs?

I'm just gonna use a simple carpenters cup to roll dice.

For the Lady! *tips lance*

Is it made from real gold?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Is it made from real gold?

Well it does melt Nazi faces.

Edit: I also just realized you are probably meaning the measuring tool...

Here is one, don't buy it

I don't see that combat gauge being a best seller at $33

 GreenWarMachine wrote:
Saw 250 for the starter box just a minute ago.

$250 US? Where? Surely not on GW's site...?

bitethythumb wrote:
Here is one, don't buy it

 Talys wrote:
There's a difference between stuff you need and stuff you want. In no universe do you need the dice shaker or measuring... thing... for the game

qft

Those accessory prices are ridiculous, yeah. But...they're just accessories. Even the parent of new, young players probably will avoid buying them.

But yeah, I expected models to still be expensive. Was hoping they'd at least lower the prices (while still expecting them to be overpriced), but does not appear that way.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's probably true that the $50 box of Sigmarines will have lots of different unit options contained within.

But if I do not have any wish to field archers, I would rather have a separate $30 box of guys with hammers, and a $30 box of guys with bows. Then for a little more you can have twice as much, or for almost half, you don't have dross you paid for but don't want.

I want to say that GW doesn't seem to see how the lower prices would sell like hotcakes (something a fledgling system needs to get off it's feet), but then the pessimist in me says, "No stupid, they know that. They just know that after years of indoctrination, that the higher prices will sell like hotcakes too".

The $50 box that went up for preorder yesterday builds JUST the Liberators and their options.

That means:
Dual Warhammers or dual Warblades.
Warhammers and Shields or Warblades and shields.
One in every 5 models can be given a Grandblade or a Grandhammer.

The Judicators(the archers) build two different types:
Judicators with Skybolt Bows or Judicators with Boltstorm Crossbows.
One in every 5 models can be given a Shockbolt Bow or Thunderbolt Crossbow.

I don't know if Judicators will be cheaper(I'm kind of hoping--but not expecting), but you don't really NEED the Liberators box unless you want paired weapons, Warblades or the Grand weapons. The Grand weapons have a Rend -1 and do 2 Damage rather than 1 and paired weapons allow you to re-roll Hit rolls of 1.

mch21689 wrote:
I thought the point of AoS was to "lower" the introduction price and attract a new consumer base. $33 for a small metal template is ridiculous. The dice shakers have enough flair and craftsmanship + dice to maybe warrant if your a hardcore fan, but even then its just a painted resin cup for $40.
Not to mention the model prices...AoS box decent bargain....5 stormcast eternals for $50 bucks not. AoS just sxreams of the biggest cash grab ever, lets not even mention the $27 army spay.

Oh because you need the dice shakers and measurement tool to play...... Oh wait no you don't. They are collectors pieces. Nothing to do with lowering prices.

As for the liberators standard price for five models, not forgetting they are larger than terminators who are the same price.

Ah the spray pain ill give you that one. Its expensive but again you don't need to buy it do you

 Accolade wrote:
Expect higher prices for all future WH-AOS releases. Requiring less models for a game means GW can jack the prices of all future life up higher.

And the people will cheer.

Higher prices you say? Then I will stay away. Just like how I bought the box set for Fantasy (Skull Pass I think, 7th edition) and nothing else because of high prices, same will go for Age of Sigmar. Haven't even opened up my box yet, after I bought it and ready to quit Age of Sigmar after seeing the tool measure thingy. (what is it called, range gauge?)

If this is what Age of Sigmar prices going to be, looks like I will be by-passing it just like I did with Fantasy.

You don't have to buy the overpriced crap.

Spur it as you would spurn a rabid dog.

That doesn't mean the rest of the game is not worth its purchase price.

 Motograter wrote:

mch21689 wrote:
I thought the point of AoS was to "lower" the introduction price and attract a new consumer base. $33 for a small metal template is ridiculous. The dice shakers have enough flair and craftsmanship + dice to maybe warrant if your a hardcore fan, but even then its just a painted resin cup for $40.
Not to mention the model prices...AoS box decent bargain....5 stormcast eternals for $50 bucks not. AoS just sxreams of the biggest cash grab ever, lets not even mention the $27 army spay.

Oh because you need the dice shakers and measurement tool to play...... Oh wait no you don't. They are collectors pieces. Nothing to do with lowering prices.

As for the liberators standard price for five models, not forgetting they are larger than terminators who are the same price.

Ah the spray pain ill give you that one. Its expensive but again you don't need to buy it do you

The problem with this argument, is while you are right about my need to purchase it, you forget GW is a publicly traded company with a need to derive profits. So when your resin diceshakers, and $30 army sprays don't sell well enough to even recoup their cost (which is hard to imagine given the production cost of one measuring template vs $33 pricetag) then GW has to find those profits in stuff that will sell because it IS necessary to play the game. Yes the stormcast eternals are as "big" as terminators, but for a box that includes 5 core troop models and a few weapon options, it is a huge entry barrier. So you buy the AoS box and get a small skirmish force going, but to expand it by 5 models your basically paying what you did for your armies entire half of AoS. Why? So you can have a few more weapon choices?

Age of Sigmar just screams cash grab. It is a 4 month break from 40k to let people's wallets recover, while they fleece as many WHFB who aren't jumping to KoW, new players, and curious WHM players. The starter box is a great deal with great minis, that drops you off a cliff into the most overpriced and underwhelming load of gak ever. Maybe this first campaign box will be another great deal and keep spurring sales, but how is AoS really different from a board game at that point? When everyone just has small starter armies of every faction tailored to play specific scenarios? Because to stray from that path is to pay $50+ just to add/expand one core unit...and enter the realm of no definitive balance for list building as well.

"The problem with this argument"

was not an argument, statement of fact

is while you are right about my need to purchase it, you forget GW is a publicly traded company with a need to derive profits. So when your resin diceshakers, and $30 army sprays don't sell well enough to even recoup their cost

depends on how many they made... they could have produced enough for beginner players and I know 2 people who already bought it, their excuse "I have the money why the hell not"

(which is hard to imagine given the production cost of one measuring template vs $33 pricetag) then GW has to find those profits in stuff that will sell because it IS necessary to play the game.

gw sell a lot of things that are not necessary for play, your argument is moot because of that... unless we know they production and supply levels everything we state is based on nothing but fact-less statements

Yes the stormcast eternals are as "big" as terminators, but for a box that includes 5 core troop models and a few weapon options, it is a huge entry barrier.

that is why you get the starter box :/ which for the price itself is pretty good starter and you can combine both chaos and sigmarines into one large force... either way its not a barrier, its a game made by GW, they can give whatever price they want... by the way, I got the starter box and if its anything to go by the quality of their products is amazing, I have not found a single mold line or defects and everything fits PERFECTLY...

So you buy the AoS box and get a small skirmish force going, but to expand it by 5 models your basically paying what you did for your armies entire half of AoS. Why? So you can have a few more weapon choices?

yes... or wait for larger box sets to come out that will be discounted or buy other factions that will be cheaper (or not depends on what they are) and mix and match, its like saying "I want a cheap terminator army"... good luck with that.

Age of Sigmar just screams cash grab

to little girly man maybe.

.

It is a 4 month break from 40k to let people's wallets recover, while they fleece as many WHFB who aren't jumping to KoW, new players, and curious WHM players.

or maybe you are just dirt poor for this hobby? try solitaire maybe (I only say that because you more or less said I am being fleeced, I am not, I made a choice and buying stuff because I enjoy it, no one is fleecing anyone, its a choice, make it)

The starter box is a great deal with great minis, that drops you off a cliff into the most overpriced and underwhelming load of gak ever.

how long has it been since the game was released? how do we know any of their long term plans, mybe they will release more boxes with scenarios and "dirt" cheap minis and that is where their profits will come...

Maybe this first campaign box will be another great deal and keep spurring sales, but how is AoS really different from a board game at that point?

its actually better that way as you can build 2 armies at the same time and get a nifty story going and more scenarios

When everyone just has small starter armies of every faction tailored to play specific scenarios? Because to stray from that path is to pay $50+ just to add/expand one core unit...and enter the realm of no definitive balance for list building as well.

so combine those armies and make your own scenarios or SLOWLY with your own cash build upon it... you are paying for quality not quantity.

i

GW "dropping" WHFB.
GW experimenting with a new rule set / game.
No reduction in "normal" premium cost items.
All equals rage.
Hard choice, if good baby steps: hate to discourage development by not buying.
If not agreeable enough, no reservation in buying elsewhere.
Good luck on the decision.

Fair being fair, their peripheral stuff has always been ridiculously priced. When GW produces a non game-necessary peripheral, i just pretty much pour brain bleach on the part of my brain that registered its existence.

Just to address a few things mentioned:

- AoS lowers the barrier to entry for play, because the number of models for an army is indisputably lower than WHFB. Never was it promised that, per model, the hobby would be cheaper.

- Before AoS, I've argued repeatedly that on a price-per-model, GW is quite competitive; the question, from a modelling standpoint is whether you like the models or not.

- AoS doesn't need to be cheaper per model or per army than its primary rivals. It just needs to be in the same ballpark.

- 5 Stormcast Eternals for $50 is no more a cash grab than 5 Trollkin Long Riders (50mm) for $110 or 5 Trollkin Warders (40mm) for $45. It's a very average price for models in today's market for a 50mm base. Likewise, 10 Trollkin scattergunners are $60 and 10 Eternal Guard are $40. Again, it's just the price of minis from the major wargame manufacturers.

- Just because a starter box is a great price doesn't mean that every other model should be comparable in price. Again, just look at WMH as a comparable. Or Dark Vengeance in 40k. The biggest difference is that the starter box models in AoS are actually GREAT -- both for the game, and as models, at least, a lot of people think so. If you think they're neither, rather, that they're underwhelming plastic scrap, obviously, you should play another game.

- The bottom line is the bottom line. Every miniature or gaming company needs to make money and will charge as much as it thinks it can for its products to maximize its profits.

Oh man, people talking about the bottom line as a consumer is so hilariously stockholm syndrome.

A business is a business, but you are a customer and consumer. You are not part of some grand GW experience, you just consume what they put out. And you should be concerned over what you are getting in the exchange. After all, you have your own bottom line too.

When you forget that, you are truly doomed to be nothing more than part of a bar on a graph.

It's perfectly reasonable to want lower prices, and good rules, and a practical cost for both entry and to have a good full sized game.

 Vertrucio wrote:

A business is a business, but you are a customer and consumer. You are not part of some grand GW experience, you just consume what they put out. And you should be concerned over what you are getting in the exchange. After all, you have your own bottom line too.

I agree! if you like it and find the price reasonable, buy it. Otherwise, don't.

When you forget that, you are truly doomed to be nothing more than part of a bar on a graph.

That's all I am to the companies who sell me practically everything I spend money on, and I'm just fine with that. Marvel doesn't care about me with regards to Avengers 4, not really any more than Microsoft does me with Halo. I expect exactly the same from GW, and from Winsor & Newton with my brushes.

Incidentally, even though I amam individually insignificant, the bar is not insignificant, so I do vote with my dollars.

It's perfectly reasonable to want lower prices, and good rules, and a practical cost for both entry and to have a good full sized game.

Of course. But it's also perfectly reasonable to accept prices for what they are while wishing they were less; and it's even reasonable to see $300 or so as not much money to build an army of miniatures for a game.

My comment above was reported as impolite, I apologise to anyone who was insulted by it as it was not my intention, I sometimes come off as impolite but in my heart I am all about respect and love.

Aside - consider the "limited" army book / codex dice tins ran about $18, I'd call it roughly a $22 dice shaker (since it comes with a set of "limited" dice).

GW has increasingly become more out of touch with its desired player base. They are looking for more youthful players who will get mommy and daddy to pull out the credit card and fork over the rent money for timmys plastic addiction. The issue with what they are doing is as soon as timmy has the cord cut he can no longer afford his habit.

Yes IMO gw produces the BEST quality(some times unimaginative though) plastic minis. With that though their pricing is really pushing players to buy second hand, use bits sellers to piece together kits at bargain rates, etc. I know for myself and several other players in my age group do not have the funds to support the hobby as we would like and what we do get to spend doesn't get us much from the game. I know for myself over the years ive invested quite a bit into warhammer so I have a decent collection. I will NOT put a penny of money into AOS simply because I am not sold on the rules and the incentive to spend is not there. The price of entry has gone down since you can play with 1 box if you wish but the reasonable price of entry is not down at all. With rumors of the books coming(which salt to be applied) but it seems to make sense from Gw's standpoint of squeezing every penny they can from players. The longer i spend a customer of GW's the less i enjoy their product it seems.

I don't think we want to re-ignite the pricing debate.

However if you are looking for a cheap way to get an army for AOS, there are lots of historical boxed sets on the market.

For example Perry Bros French Curassiers look very High Elvish with their tall plumed helmets and cost only £20 for a box of 14.

If you want something more mediaeval, the Agincourt and WoTR sets are worth considering.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think we want to re-ignite the pricing debate.

However if you are looking for a cheap way to get an army for AOS, there are lots of historical boxed sets on the market.

For example Perry Bros French Curassiers look very High Elvish with their tall plumed helmets and cost only £20 for a box of 14.

If you want something more mediaeval, the Agincourt and WoTR sets are worth considering.

Ill use what I have but I wont waste time or money building and painting new stuff

So we are just gonna ignore that every single new rule for AoS has been free, including all army rules and the core rules, and just focus on things you don't actually need to play the game?

You get roughly 50 models for about 125usd. Based on how the new golden boy kits are 50, how is that not amazing? Free figure in a white dwarf? How long since thats happened?

I swear its "dakkadakka:where the glass is always half empty ALWAYS"

die toten hosen wrote:
So we are just gonna ignore that every single new rule for AoS has been free, including all army rules and the core rules, and just focus on things you don't actually need to play the game?

You get roughly 50 models for about 125usd. Based on how the new golden boy kits are 50, how is that not amazing? Free figure in a white dwarf? How long since thats happened?

I swear its "dakkadakka:where the glass is always half empty ALWAYS"

Not to get into specific prices (I agree with Killcrazy, the last thing I want to see is that debate again...), but what would make a group of people happy would be:

1. Free rules, and no need to buy other books (though optional printed ones for a price is ok)
2. Armies that never get outdated from a rules perspective (ie no power creep that makes old stuff weak)
3. Production of cool new stuff, but make it totally unnecessary (new units are relatively no better than the old units)
4. Individual kit prices in the same strata of pricing as the Starter box, with price increases that underperform inflation
5. Campaigns are ok, as long as they're 100% optional.

The problem is, this isn't very profitable. Case in point, the amount of money that most independents make off of Kings of War is so small as to not even be a rounding error. There are only 2 ways to make money -- motivation for people into buy new stuff for their old game, or new games. GW obviously thinks that the former is easier than the latter, and has been very successful in it in 40k, and not successful at all in Fantasy Battle.

I only have one friend that really loves his Fantasy Battle, and to him, #2 is very important (ergo, he's stuck in 6e WHFB with his friends), and uses essentially the same army he's used for over a decade, which consists almost entirely of cavalry and infantry sized models. He hates all the big supernatural/heroic stuff. What he would like to see is basically a new rulebook & codex (he's willing to pay for it) every 4 years or so, that will work perfectly with his army.

The problem is, and he recognizes it, GW would go bankrupt with that business model, because the only way then to sell more miniatures is new players.

Expensive dice cups and measures are collector's items, nothing more. They're meant for people with more money than sense.

Just vote with your wallet, don't buy them, they wouldn't keep making and overpricing them if people weren't buying them. Obviously there's a market for overpriced dice cups (strangely enough) and if some army of people who really, really like dice cups want to keep funding GW to make more models by buying dice cups, I'm not complaining.

If it was like dishwasher safe and useable a beer glass for the beer part of beer and pretzel then i think it would of been cool.

But a resin cup hastily dry brushed with the blood of WHFB?

No thanks.

Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

 Chute82 wrote:
Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

Man I forgot how stupid high their MSRP is on their spray paint. My local stores tend to sell it much, much cheaper actually.

I heard part of the reason is that the new golds are much better chemically and have additives. I know they work really, really well, but $28? I mean.. if I was going to base an entire army like Eternals $30 would have to beat out 7 bottles worth of the bottle variant and I somehow doubt it has that much paint.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

Man I forgot how stupid high their MSRP is on their spray paint. My local stores tend to sell it much, much cheaper actually.

I heard part of the reason is that the new golds are much better chemically and have additives. I know they work really, really well, but $28? I mean.. if I was going to base an entire army like Eternals $30 would have to beat out 7 bottles worth of the bottle variant and I somehow doubt it has that much paint.

The amount of paint you would lose to overspray it hard to justify the cost of a can. But they would not make it if people were not buying it

The problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battles was that veterans didn't spend anything. Now with Age of Sigmar, nobody will spend anything! Because they'll need to eat instead!

 Chute82 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

Man I forgot how stupid high their MSRP is on their spray paint. My local stores tend to sell it much, much cheaper actually.

I heard part of the reason is that the new golds are much better chemically and have additives. I know they work really, really well, but $28? I mean.. if I was going to base an entire army like Eternals $30 would have to beat out 7 bottles worth of the bottle variant and I somehow doubt it has that much paint.

The amount of paint you would lose to overspray it hard to justify the cost of a can. But they would not make it if people were not buying it

To be honest, as a newbie I would've gotten into the game much easier had I just dropped $20 on a spray can and painted all of my Khorne Warriors at once in Khorne Red instead of learning the hard way that hand painting takes a lot of time. I assume the spray can is definitely convenience bait for people who wanna just low risk, quick-paint the starter kit.

The spray primers are really pricey. But they're hardly necessary, and most people who are painting mountains of minis will go airbrush anyhow.

Incidentally, a friend showed me a model primed with Corax White, and it is a REALLY nice surface. I mean, better than an airbrushed white Vallejo P/U, and way better than Skull White or P3 White primer.

I might still like Mr. Hobby's better, but Mr. Hobby's primer makes Corax seem cheap (it comes in a midget can and is as expensive as a full size from anyone else).

 Desubot wrote:
hastily dry brushed with the blood of WHFB

Best sales patter I have yet seen for these overpriced geegaws.

I would still use the Army Painter sprays, and I think even those are pretty pricey.

Army Painter in a sense is taking advantage of the user's lack of knowledge about DIY.

Army Painter dip is basically the same formulation as Minwax polish, used for decades by historical players to get tabletop standard results quickly and easily. However the magic dip technique is still a kind of folk knowledge while Army Painter gives you the confidence of buying a product that is guaranteed to produce the results.

Coloured primers are the same thing. You could just buy spray paints from DIY or graphics shops and get the same results, but the primer spray promises you it will work.

Montana Gold spray chrome paints are £4.99 a can, if someone wants to avoid the official GW gold spray.

frankelee wrote:
The problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battles was that veterans didn't spend anything.

I don't even think that's true. I tend to make 3-4 new armies or equivalents per year for what ever game system I am interested in at the moment.

So far this year I have completed an Epic Marine army, 1500 points of UCM for Dropzone, a 6 point warband of Islemen for Saga, a Nuln Mordheim warband and the Haqq Islam starter set for Infinity. GW has seen no cash whatsoever from this despite the fact that I have painted 5000 points of GW miniatures that I was forced to get from Ebay. I am currently painting a Goblin army for KoW (using GW miniatures) and I am planning a Minervan Super heavy Regiment for Epic (featuring 15 Baneblade hulls) that I will either be buying from ebay or I will be using models that I already possess.

I am definitely a wargaming veteran and I spend quite a lot of money on toy soldiers yet GW doesn't see a single penny. Granted I get quite a lot of stuff from Ebay or other manufacturers but if GW produced what I want, at a reasonable price, then I would buy from them.

I think you are an outlier in terms of the amount of money you spend but the point you make is valid, people are spending money on stuff, just not enough on WHFB to keep it viable for GW.

The reasons for that, and the likely amount of money in play, has been debated widely elsewhere.

GW obviously want to make money out of AOS and they can't do that from the rules which are free, so they have to make it up by selling premium items to super fans.

That actually is a clever strategy, since the more people playing the game the better. Cheapskates like me will download the rules for free, and make armies from non-GW models, but our presence in the player base improves the spread of the system anyway.

I'm pretty sure you can survive without em

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think you are an outlier in terms of the amount of money you spend but the point you make is valid, people are spending money on stuff, just not enough on WHFB to keep it viable for GW.

I have no interest in WHFB anymore, thats why I haven't bought anything for that system in 7 or 8 years. Yet as soon as AoS comes and with the resultant surge of popularity of KoW I am building up 2000 points of Goblins. I obviously have an interest in this particular area of gaming and I have the means to acquire armies yet I haven't been doing so since about half way through 7th ed and the armies I did have are now either in storage or they have gone on Ebay. If GW had actually thought about what was wrong with WHFB, how it could be fixed in a reasonable manner and then produced a high quality game then I would in all probability be making 9th ed armies now rather than lamenting the death of the Old World.

WHFB has been viable for decades, GW really need to ask themselves why they feel it is no longer viable and how it has become non viable; perhaps if they did that they wouldn't be blindly heading towards financial disaster.

There seems to be a trend in this thread now:

A) Starter box is great deal
- Think least 90% of us agree on this.

B) The models look cool, and the price per model isnt outside the "norm" for a skirmish game.

- My take on this is while the PPM might be "reasonable" GW isn't the king of a larger-base, lower model count skirmish game, and when your trying to pull WMH players, attract new players, and maybe even keep some WHFB players then you can't just be the "norm" you have to either have exceptional value or a product people want more. So far all 3 of my FLGS seem to be way overstocked and very underwhelmed at the turnout for AoS. Meanwhile WMH is growing like wildfire and 40k is as strong as ever. We have more 8th edition WHFB players still than people who have bought the AoS starter. And both upcoming releases have no real excitement factor for me either. The new terrain is cool but horribly overpriced. $58 for ONE gate? It literally will cost more than your army to field your side of the board's terrain lol. The first "book" already at $75, even from someone who bought most of the end times books, is just too much for the first "campaign" which brings me to point C

C) The first wave stuff is all (regardless of its PPM just its flat price) very pricey and is either optional or just repackage of the AoS box with options.

-This is where my problem comes in. GW didn't hit us with a Week 2 launch of an exciting new unit to add to our AoS box at a reasonable cost. Instead we get liberators (the core and most vanilla in excitement of their army) with some weapon options at a price that really sets a barrier at expanding my force. This might not have been so bad, had there been other exciting items to spur people to further their collections, but the first book already is hitting me with an ET vibe with its huge pricetag....so I can read some lore and play some scenarios with models I have to drop another $200 just to have now.

D) But I don't need the book, the sprays, the dice-shaker, etc so just don't buy them.

-My thoughts exactly, but the problem is eventually I get gouged regardless of whether I buy them or not. Because I either am left with this 4 page of rules and a desire to expand on them, or I am forced to buy the overprice books. Then you have the factored overhead into the cost of everything I do want to buy because of the loss from things barely anyone is willing to buy. This is coupled with the inevitable war-scroll power creep as new units come out .





So that is my summarized rant. I mean I WANT AoS to do well because I enjoy both 40k and WHFB, and I will be the first to admit their is plenty wrong on the 40k side but the pros outweigh the cons for me. My problem with AoS is GW doesn't seem interested in competing with WHM or KoW. They want to spur interest with all this hype, coverage, talks, and a snazzy starter. But one week later we are already seeing the writing on the wall at the repetitive cash grab these books, limited run items/accessories, and models are going to be. I mean $50 for what amounts to your core models combined with some of the ET pricing and recent 40k pricehikes for LoW/GC makes me shudder to think what a center piece model in AoS is going to cost. And these costs are what is going to prevent people from moving beyond treating AoS as a "board game" and collecting/expanding multiple armies to use in a skirmish/battle game instead.

@mch21689 - I don't think that GW wants to compete with KoW. In fact, the complete opposite: they're getting out of the regimented fantasy wargame business. They see it as a dead end in terms of revenue (rightly or wrongly).

Unlike you, I don't feel that GW needs to undercut WMH to attract players or hobbyists.

I think that at there are a significant population of hobbyists who believe that GW models are superior, and that GW kits are superior, so even at similar prices ($10 ppm), they would rather have GW models. Of course, the same can be said for WMH -- but there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think that $300 - $400 for a completely custom army is unreasonable. Prior to AoS, tons of people were pegging this as the ideal price that an army should cost anyways, and if you go to see the popular WMH lists, that's the median price range, I think.

I don't think that AoS will ever make the kind of money 40k makes. 40k is singularly the only miniature wargame where there is a cadre of players and collectors who keep adding insane numbers of models to their armies, even when those armies are already an insane number of models.

In what other game system are there players who own 25,000+ points equivalency (just call that 1,000+ models) and keep adding to the army? I'm not making that up; a lot of the youtubes of people who show "how to paint a crimson hunter" or whatever show 9 foot wide display cases packed solid with models, and the guys say, "even though I have 20,000 points worth of Eldar, I STILL had to buy more models to try this out". I mean, I've never even heard of this in another game.

You also have guys like me, who have several armies, and every decade or so, decide that they want to do a complete revamp (because there's better models, etc.). In the DCM forum, there's a fella who spent something like $6k in the last 4 months, and buys every limited, standard, and electronic codex that drops. I won't go that far, but I'll spend "thousands" on an army to get it to where I'm happy with it (before I move on to another), and there is no other game system / world that I can imagine such a thing (or seen it, or even heard of it, of any other player).

 Talys wrote:
@mch21689 - I don't think that GW wants to compete with KoW. In fact, the complete opposite: they're getting out of the regimented fantasy wargame business. They see it as a dead end in terms of revenue (rightly or wrongly).

Unlike you, I don't feel that GW needs to undercut WMH to attract players or hobbyists.

I think that at there are a significant population of hobbyists who believe that GW models are superior, and that GW kits are superior, so even at similar prices ($10 ppm), they would rather have GW models. Of course, the same can be said for WMH -- but there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think that $300 - $400 for a completely custom army is unreasonable. Prior to AoS, tons of people were pegging this as the ideal price that an army should cost anyways, and if you go to see the popular WMH lists, that's the median price range, I think.

I don't think that AoS will ever make the kind of money 40k makes. 40k is singularly the only miniature wargame where there is a cadre of players and collectors who keep adding insane numbers of models to their armies, even when those armies are already an insane number of models.

In what other game system are there players who own 25,000+ points equivalency (just call that 1,000+ models) and keep adding to the army? I'm not making that up; a lot of the youtubes of people who show "how to paint a crimson hunter" or whatever show 9 foot wide display cases packed solid with models, and the guys say, "even though I have 20,000 points worth of Eldar, I STILL had to buy more models to try this out". I mean, I've never even heard of this in another game.

You also have guys like me, who have several armies, and every decade or so, decide that they want to do a complete revamp (because there's better models, etc.). In the DCM forum, there's a fella who spent something like $6k in the last 4 months, and buys every limited, standard, and electronic codex that drops. I won't go that far, but I'll spend "thousands" on an army to get it to where I'm happy with it (before I move on to another), and there is no other game system / world that I can imagine such a thing (or seen it, or even heard of it, of any other player).

And I agree with some of what you are saying, I mean I have probably 15,000 of CSM/Demons, and another 3-5000 each of SM, AM/IG, GK, and Eldar. I also have about 10,000 WoC and 4000 OK. Not to mention the armies I have bought/sold/traded over the years. But even for the people that collect and own outside of the regular game amounts, GWs recent price hikes and practices have begun to erode my sense of value and desire for something I know I can't place on the table everytime I go to play. I bought the ET books for the lore, even with the ridiculous prices, but I find myself not having the desire to repeat with AoS, mainly because I don't see AoS hanging around the what 30+ years fantasy did?

I know GW isn't gunning for KoW, but WMH definitely. The problem being PP is just far more in touch with their consumer base than GW is imo. I dont even play WHM that much, yet I scooped up a khador army box deal because as a starter box the value was incredible. Then I paid 34.99 to add a unit of 10 models and I found myself sitting at a fun to play 35+ point list and the full rulebook. Now sure to expand to 50 pts and swap casters or change jacks out, I might shell out $200-300 in the end, but guess what I didn't have to pay...$75 just to make 6 army lists. The cool AoS models will only carry sales so far before people realize the rules need work, the scenario books are codex fleecing on steroids, AND the books push you toward buying the latest model kits. And even if 5 models for $50 isn't that far fetched...the single model infantry lord clam pack is $33!? Single terrain kits with less than 10 pieces are more expensive than most of the dedicated transports in 40k. I guess I am just sad because I want to give GW money to enjoy a skirmish game set in a warhammer esque lore, but that game isn't out yet. What we have is another execution force or space hulk combined with ridiculously overpriced expansions and collectibles.

mch21689 wrote:
And I agree with some of what you are saying, I mean I have probably 15,000 of CSM/Demons, and another 3-5000 each of SM, AM/IG, GK, and Eldar. I also have about 10,000 WoC and 4000 OK. Not to mention the armies I have bought/sold/traded over the years. But even for the people that collect and own outside of the regular game amounts, GWs recent price hikes and practices have begun to erode my sense of value and desire for something I know I can't place on the table everytime I go to play. I bought the ET books for the lore, even with the ridiculous prices, but I find myself not having the desire to repeat with AoS, mainly because I don't see AoS hanging around the what 30+ years fantasy did?

I know GW isn't gunning for KoW, but WMH definitely. The problem being PP is just far more in touch with their consumer base than GW is imo. I dont even play WHM that much, yet I scooped up a khador army box deal because as a starter box the value was incredible. Then I paid 34.99 to add a unit of 10 models and I found myself sitting at a fun to play 35+ point list and the full rulebook. Now sure to expand to 50 pts and swap casters or change jacks out, I might shell out $200-300 in the end, but guess what I didn't have to pay...$75 just to make 6 army lists. The cool AoS models will only carry sales so far before people realize the rules need work, the scenario books are codex fleecing on steroids, AND the books push you toward buying the latest model kits. And even if 5 models for $50 isn't that far fetched...the single model infantry lord clam pack is $33!? Single terrain kits with less than 10 pieces are more expensive than most of the dedicated transports in 40k. I guess I am just sad because I want to give GW money to enjoy a skirmish game set in a warhammer esque lore, but that game isn't out yet. What we have is another execution force or space hulk combined with ridiculously overpriced expansions and collectibles.

Right, GW is gunning for some of the WMH crowd, though I think the less "math crunching competitive" crowd, which PP cares about (and supports) a lot, and more then "play for fun, love the models" players.

have you seen some of the single-model PPs? Well, really, any of the single-model releases. Kromac is 50mm and $35 and Anston Durst, the last character model I bought, is 40mm and $25, A Nephalim isn't even a character, and I think around $20 each. I'm actually not saying that this expensive: I'm saying that this is the market price in 2015 for premium game pieces. It's not 1985 anymore, and gone are the days of $8 character models and $10 blisters of 5.

The boxes of 3, 5, and 10 are pretty close to GW prices. Personally, I think PP prices its products to be close to GW PPMs. Both are guilty of charging a lot for solos/warcasters/heroes, but I'm actually okay with that: I'm only going to have 1 warcaster, whereas PP can sell me 10 units, it only makes sense that PP charge more for the warcaster. I mean, why would I ever buy 5 Anston Durst or 5 Bradigus, right?

From a "technical design, amazing pose" perspective, the GW models offer a lot more to me, because they come in like, 15+ pieces, which allow very ususual, twisting designs like wraparound cloaks and flowing ribbons, or piece-behind-piece layouts that would be impossible in 2-part metal molds, even in multipart (PP's multipart metal implementation is very simplistic anyhow). But all that's aesthetic, and I get it that some people could care less. They just want game pieces that look sort of nice, and from that perspective a 3-piece model is superior than a 15-piece model, because it takes less time to put together, and If you're only going to spend 2 hours painting him, what does it matter anyhow?

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

frankelee wrote:
The problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battles was that veterans didn't spend anything.

I don't even think that's true. I tend to make 3-4 new armies or equivalents per year for what ever game system I am interested in at the moment.

So far this year I have completed an Epic Marine army, 1500 points of UCM for Dropzone, a 6 point warband of Islemen for Saga, a Nuln Mordheim warband and the Haqq Islam starter set for Infinity. GW has seen no cash whatsoever from this despite the fact that I have painted 5000 points of GW miniatures that I was forced to get from Ebay. I am currently painting a Goblin army for KoW (using GW miniatures) and I am planning a Minervan Super heavy Regiment for Epic (featuring 15 Baneblade hulls) that I will either be buying from ebay or I will be using models that I already possess.

I am definitely a wargaming veteran and I spend quite a lot of money on toy soldiers yet GW doesn't see a single penny. Granted I get quite a lot of stuff from Ebay or other manufacturers but if GW produced what I want, at a reasonable price, then I would buy from them.

Oh yeah, I was just providing the set-up with that tired old line about veterans not buying enough. I think a lot of people are like you, gamers like to get new things, a lot of us have that collecting gene too, we're not averse to spending money on our particular hobby. But their prices are so crazy, and you start to get a little older and wiser, it's easy to move onto better, more cost effective games, or just hit up eBay. Not to mention if they really wanted to keep veterans spending regularly, what about a new Blood Bowl/Necromunda/Warhammer Quest style game every two years with supplements? Instead they give us shaker cups.

frankelee wrote:
Oh yeah, I was just providing the set-up with that tired old line about veterans not buying enough. I think a lot of people are like you, gamers like to get new things, a lot of us have that collecting gene too, we're not averse to spending money on our particular hobby. But their prices are so crazy, and you start to get a little older and wiser, it's easy to move onto better, more cost effective games, or just hit up eBay. Not to mention if they really wanted to keep veterans spending regularly, what about a new Blood Bowl/Necromunda/Warhammer Quest style game every two years with supplements? Instead they give us shaker cups.

GW has made it pretty clear they're not in the board game business anymore. There's nothing wrong with that.

Fantasy Battle's woes come from three different vectors:

1. FB Veterans weren't spending money on FB the way that 40k veterans spend money on 40k
2. There weren't many new FB players
3. FB was losing players

The reasons why don't really matter. The fact is, something had to change.

They could have tried to build a better mousetrap in regimented fantasy battle -- a la KoW. My guess is, this was discussed and decided at the top of the company's food chain that large scale fantasy games are just not big moneymakers anymore.

Instead they went for a product that competes with WMH, but in a tangential way, because it appeals to a less "my points your points FIGHT!" crowd, and more to a gentle cooperative scenario crowd. I think this is smart on GW's part, because WMH players who are happy... why would they switch games? Instead, go after the people who aren't happy with WMH, because perhaps, they find the scene too competitive, and the rules more work and less fun.

Time will tell if their bet pays off. However, since it wasn't like FB was making a pile of money, they don't exactly have much to lose.

 Talys wrote:

The reasons why don't really matter. The fact is, something had to change.

Yes, and GW chose the wrong option as usual. The reasons why are absolutely vital, but GW in its infinite wisdom does no market research so.......

Its vaguely possible that AoS will be a huge success but I would be astounded if AoS was still supported in any meaningful way in 5 years time (assuming GW still exists as a single entity by then of course).

They have already lost one of the most venerable worlds in Wargaming to knock out the turd that is AoS. Desperation or genius? I think its safe to assume which I think is more likely.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
They have already lost one of the most venerable worlds in Wargaming to knock out the turd that is AoS. Desperation or genius? I think its safe to assume which I think is more likely.

You and I disagree on the quality of AoS: you think it's turd, I think it's the coolest box set **any company** has come out with in a long time. I actually think the Sigmarites in the box are some of the most beautiful and technically sophisticated models I've seen to date, especially the Prosecutors and mounted Lord Celestant. Then again, I highly value models, much more so than game rules, even though I enjoy playing the game, so we may have very different priorities.

You are totally entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, and I believe both are equally valid. I hope we can just leave that debate there without more hyperbolic statements. I don't think there's a whole lot more to say anyhow.

I don't know if AoS is the product of desperation or genius, or both -- they're actually not mutually exclusive. However, I suspect the truth is, it's some shade of grey. I'm sure Games Workshop was frustrated with the Fantasy Battle sales and the direction and size of the community; AoS is definitely a different beast than all the other zillion point-based games out there and an attempt at innovation.

As usual, reality isn't quite black and white, and I suspect its success will fall somewhere between abject failure and everyone's favorite game, rather than at either of those markers.

I wonder if it is true that 40K players are more likely to be super fans and buy lots of high price kits.

One effect of AOS was to make me go into some GW shops and take a look at what is on offer. There were some super kits for Fantasy, the Skaven Doom Wheel and the Bell, for example are huge, intricate models, so is the new Nagash monster. Not my style at all but I can appreciate the amount of detail and parts from an objective viewpoint.

Why are WHFB players not buying them? Is it something about the nature of 40K that attracts a different type of player? The fantasy side used to be huge for GW. When and why did things change, and how fast was the decline?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Why are WHFB players not buying them?

I simply don't like large 'cool' models. My armies are almost universally filled with 'rank and file' models; often with some kind of modest centrepiece unit such as elite heavy infantry. I have no interest in the kind of large kits that GW has been producing over recent years.

I would never, ever buy a 28mm scale Knight Titan for example , but I would be all over them at 6mm should they ever be re-released.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Why are WHFB players not buying them?

Typically for many I think it's because most of the large centerpiece models were terrible as cannons and the like would destroy them. Even a horde of basic troops could take a monster down if they had enough attacks. Aside from Nagash, every time I used a monster it just didn't feel as impressive or as powerful as I thought it should, typically getting slaughtered by cannons turn 1 or 2 or having so few wounds once they got to combat they survived maybe a round or two before dying, though at least then they tended to take out a decent chunk of the unit they were fighting. If my opponent didn't have cannons then my monsters felt like a better deal, but not to the extent many of the 40K centerpiece models.

Typically the large centerpiece models in 40K are tough and powerful, and aside from grav-guns don't typically have as much of a hard counter. Wraithknights, IKs and the like tend to survive most if not the entirety of a game and tend to more than make up for their points cost.

I agree that cannons put a hurting on your larger models. I own the screaming bell ( awesome model) but in two turns the cannons would just out right kill it. Cannons might as well have been laser guided in 8th edition which was one of the things most people agreed on that needed to be tone down.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Why are WHFB players not buying them?

Typically for many I think it's because most of the large centerpiece models were terrible as cannons and the like would destroy them. Even a horde of basic troops could take a monster down if they had enough attacks. Aside from Nagash, every time I used a monster it just didn't feel as impressive or as powerful as I thought it should, typically getting slaughtered by cannons turn 1 or 2 or having so few wounds once they got to combat they survived maybe a round or two before dying, though at least then they tended to take out a decent chunk of the unit they were fighting. If my opponent didn't have cannons then my monsters felt like a better deal, but not to the extent many of the 40K centerpiece models.

Typically the large centerpiece models in 40K are tough and powerful, and aside from grav-guns don't typically have as much of a hard counter. Wraithknights, IKs and the like tend to survive most if not the entirety of a game and tend to more than make up for their points cost.

This ^. Most of the epic sized center piece models (like my mortalith vortex beast) are/were pretty bad on the table top due to cannons and magic. It wasn't worth the time or money to build and paint an $80 model to have it removed turn 1 every game by some 100 pt cannon or at the sign of the first magic missile.

Yeah it just feels like, as usual, GW wants something but they don't want to do what it takes to earn it. They want to complain veterans don't buy enough, but they dump the skirmish level games and board games which keep the brand invigorated and keep veterans regularly buying a cycling product. They want people to buy new armies, but they price themselves up like Williams-Sonoma, making people rethink casual single purchases for models they like, and put the sticker shock brakes on impulse purchases. They put out these huge, often very beautiful centerpiece models, who instead of being integrated well into the game like PP did, get the label of being OP when there aren't cannons on the table, or wastes of points when there are cannons on the table. Forget the gaming perspective, from a business perspective they haven't done a good job maintaining this top of the market brand. Even 40K sales have fallen, it's not just Fantasy, it's company-wide. The littler game just died first.

People keep saying "GW prices are so bad"... but in reality, they are not...

I mean really, compare their prices and units to other companies and the difference is minimal...

edit: apart from Kings of War I guess, some of their stuff is priced pretty good (skeletons) but quality is still not GW

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if it is true that 40K players are more likely to be super fans and buy lots of high price kits.

One effect of AOS was to make me go into some GW shops and take a look at what is on offer. There were some super kits for Fantasy, the Skaven Doom Wheel and the Bell, for example are huge, intricate models, so is the new Nagash monster. Not my style at all but I can appreciate the amount of detail and parts from an objective viewpoint.

Why are WHFB players not buying them? Is it something about the nature of 40K that attracts a different type of player? The fantasy side used to be huge for GW. When and why did things change, and how fast was the decline?

I think that the fantasy models are simply more generic. You have many companies that produce elves, orcs, humans, etc. On the human side. there is nothing special about Brettonians or Empire. Sure, they're nice models, but so are there nice models from many other companies, and technically, they are not wonders of sculpting.

By the time the superpremium models (like Nagash) came out, it was too late.

As a really big 40k fan, I fall in love with the factions, which are really unique and don't have comparables. I mean, sure, a lot of companies make a couple of kits that are similar to a couple of 40k kits (Valkir et al), but there's no range that is close in its entirety, no even to Imperial Guard. Plus, you have vehicles, which is a really big thing for me, because they're really fun to model, and there are just no plastic vehicle kits by other companies (in contrast, there are dragon, demon, ogre, minotaur kits from lots of other companies, for example).

Finally, Space Marines.

I know some people hate them because they get so much attention, or they're sick of seeing them, or whatever. But in the scifi realm, and really, the modelling realm, there exists no line of infantry models which have so many interchangeable bits as space marines (it's not even close). For those of us who like the combination of heraldry and knights plus big guns, Space Marines are just the perfect answer.

Frankly, I could build and paint another couple thousand space marines (they wouldn't all be the same, including chapter, obviously...), spend 10+ hours on each one, and still be excited to paint the next one, which is something that I couldn't say about anything else, including anything else that GW makes. I couldn't even imagine painting a couple hundred elves or dwarves. A few would be fun, but that many sounds like excruciating work, not fun, to me.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Army Painter in a sense is taking advantage of the user's lack of knowledge about DIY.

Army Painter dip is basically the same formulation as Minwax polish, used for decades by historical players to get tabletop standard results quickly and easily. However the magic dip technique is still a kind of folk knowledge while Army Painter gives you the confidence of buying a product that is guaranteed to produce the results.

Coloured primers are the same thing. You could just buy spray paints from DIY or graphics shops and get the same results, but the primer spray promises you it will work.

Montana Gold spray chrome paints are £4.99 a can, if someone wants to avoid the official GW gold spray.

I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

 doc1234 wrote:

I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

Dettol works well although I personally use acetone (only for metals though).

Why is GW making League of Legends Dice Shakers and Measuring tools?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if it is true that 40K players are more likely to be super fans and buy lots of high price kits.

One effect of AOS was to make me go into some GW shops and take a look at what is on offer. There were some super kits for Fantasy, the Skaven Doom Wheel and the Bell, for example are huge, intricate models, so is the new Nagash monster. Not my style at all but I can appreciate the amount of detail and parts from an objective viewpoint.

Why are WHFB players not buying them? Is it something about the nature of 40K that attracts a different type of player? The fantasy side used to be huge for GW. When and why did things change, and how fast was the decline?

I'm more a WHFB fan than a 40k fan and I love big cool models. That said I didn't really buy any of the recent big cool models because I didn't like 8th edition and also because the armies I collect didn't really have that many big models that I thought looked cool.

GW would have made a fortune out of me if they'd released some decent dragons and some cool looking large demons.

Part of the problem may just be that, GW's aesthetic for monsters in WHFB doesn't click with me. Too many of their big models are close but not quite there aesthetically to get me to buy them.

Silent Puffin? wrote:
I would never, ever buy a 28mm scale Knight Titan for example , but I would be all over them at 6mm should they ever be re-released.

Wot, not even for converting an emperor titan?

That said, I agree with you. Wouldn't mind a couple of big things in an army, but GW just seemed to go monster mash recently. The fact that WFB basic infantry needed extra rules bolted on just to survive the onslaught should've spoken volumes.

And I'm hovering over ebay, waiting for a Warden to go for less than mental prices.

bitethythumb wrote:People keep saying "GW prices are so bad"... but in reality, they are not...

I mean really, compare their prices and units to other companies and the difference is minimal...

And people keep saying "GW prices aren't so bad" as if a price-tag-by-price-tag comparison is all there is. Forgetting material (plastic moulds are a significant initial cost, but casting costs pennies compared to metal or resin, and GW still has the in-house facilities and 'mass' market to keep costs down), model count (almost certainly contributed to the death of big battle warhammer, with most of those unique, high-quality little snowflakes lost in the middle of unit blocks. But even with this ostensibly smaller-scale game, I see people talking about having 100-200 model games. And who knows what lack of army composition and future official scenarios will demand?) and quality of rules. (Randomhammer didn't please enough people, apparently)

But y'know, I'm surprising myself in that I'm starting to think that GW's prices might be worth it, again (from discounters at least), though that's with a set of rules that doesn't demand huge model counts, and a good, thought-out set of rules that isn't trying to sell minis, at that. And even then it'd be nice if that heavily discounted box of plastic dreadspears at £1.50 a mini could be brought a bit closer to the likes of full RRP Perry plastic medieval infantry at about 50p a mini.

doc1234 wrote:
I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

Dewd. Fairy Power Spray. Srsly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

GW would have made a fortune out of me if they'd released some decent dragons and some cool looking large demons.

GW not releasing decent dragons? I know just what you're talking about, and personally, I think there's one simple little reason for that problem.

The entry price is low, these are all optional extras that aren't needed

There will be an initial rash of sales as anyone interested picks them up (they're well entitled to like them) before these items clog up shelves until December when grandparents and other slightly confused shopped pick them up as suitable accessories/stocking fillers

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:

I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

Dettol works well although I personally use acetone (only for metals though).

Yes I ended up using Dettol, was just reinforcing KillKrazys point of folk knowledge vs convenience.

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

TBM wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

It's like GW have never produced a unit where you can't see faces...
If it helps with the narrative, you could always write their names on their based and include copies of their Curriculum Vitae with their warscrolls...?

RoperPG wrote:

TBM wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

It's like GW have never produced a unit where you can't see faces...
If it helps with the narrative, you could always write their names on their based and include copies of their Curriculum Vitae with their warscrolls...?

Its like you think all I talked about was their lack of faces.

When in actuality it's a combination of factors.

- No visible faces.
-Every mask looks identical/they all look alike.
- No personalities.
- Only exist to fight chaos.
- The "perfect" army to fight chaos.

- BORING.

Why would anybody buy that unit at that price point ever?

Or buy these - happy with mine - 2 for £3.95

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TT-Combat-Templates-Hammer-Movement-Widgets-Set-of-2-Great-for-AoS-/391201915834

TBM wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

TBM wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

It's like GW have never produced a unit where you can't see faces...
If it helps with the narrative, you could always write their names on their based and include copies of their Curriculum Vitae with their warscrolls...?

Its like you think all I talked about was their lack of faces.

When in actuality it's a combination of factors.

- No visible faces.
-Every mask looks identical/they all look alike.
- No personalities.
- Only exist to fight chaos.
- The "perfect" army to fight chaos.

- BORING.

Why would anybody buy that unit at that price point ever?

People buy Grey Knight terminators, who cover all those points. As for price - people bought the Witch Elf boxes.
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

People also buy Terminators, who cost about the same and are terrible rules-wise.

People buy stuff like this all the time, it's nothing new. The only different thing is that these are for AoS and therefore (apparently) must be hated by all and are automatically the worst things ever made.

People buy Grey Knight terminators, who cover all those points. As for price - people bought the Witch Elf boxes.
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

Grey Knights as an army don't cover all those points.

A battle brother doesnt look like a terminator. There's troop variety. They have personalities, they're flawed - they'll kill whole planets and wipe out whole IG armies to keep secrets from getting out. Some of their range have exposed faces and the option to add bare heads in the kit. Sigmarines are ensouled automaton demigods who all wear the same armour across their entire range and exist for one purpose only. Why would any child pic a sigmarine over a grey knight? As a game 40K > AoS. As a model the real thing > A cynical imitation.

people bought the Witch Elf boxes

Yes, cos they aren't a set of dull golden mary sues.

RoperPG wrote:
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

Besides, where does all the 'background' on Grey Knights come from? It's not in their army list entries.
The Stormcasts aren't as 2D as you're making out, they just don't have the breadth of fluff that GK's do that we now take for granted.
In the Gates of Azyr book there's a scene where the celestant encounters humans, and talks to them without headgear on. There's also reference to the fact that the Stormcasts lose a little of their former selves with each reforging, but a large part of the story is Vandus struggling with balancing who he was against who he is now.
I'm not saying it's good fluff, but it's no less 2D than every single space marine story that didn't involve primarchs.

RoperPG wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

Besides, where does all the 'background' on Grey Knights come from? It's not in their army list entries.
The Stormcasts aren't as 2D as you're making out, they just don't have the breadth of fluff that GK's do that we now take for granted.
In the Gates of Azyr book there's a scene where the celestant encounters humans, and talks to them without headgear on. There's also reference to the fact that the Stormcasts lose a little of their former selves with each reforging, but a large part of the story is Vandus struggling with balancing who he was against who he is now.
I'm not saying it's good fluff, but it's no less 2D than every single space marine story that didn't involve primarchs.

There's no visual indication on any of the stormcast range that there's anything in that armour but a spirit. If they're really individuals, where's the individuality? Space Marines have purity seals, bionic eyes, bionic limbs, crux terminatus, imperial laurels, and other kinds of markings and awards on their armour to communicate that these are individuals with histories. There's none of that here, despite each "Eternal" being of widely disparate races and cultures. You brought up Witch Elves, but here is why thats a false equivalent:

Imagine if the entire Dark Elf range looked like slight variations of the plastic executioner model. There's one with a sword and shield, one with a bow and one with wings. That's it. No other aesthetic besides the executioner with the skull helm, repeated across the entire army. Make them fight chaos all the time and with no purpose beyond that. Increase the model size by 30% and charge double the price per model. Then call them "Witch Elves".

Would I buy it then? I can say the answer contains the words hell and no. I'd be surprised if anyone did.

TBM wrote:


There's no visual indication on any of the stormcast range that there's anything in that armour but a spirit. If they're really individuals, where's the individuality? Space Marines have purity seals, bionic eyes, bionic limbs, crux terminatus, imperial laurels, and other kinds of markings and awards on their armour to communicate that these are individuals with histories. There's none of that here, despite each "Eternal" being of widely disparate races and cultures. You brought up Witch Elves, but here is why thats a false equivalent:

The only evidence I've seen anywhere is in the giant versions of this image where a pair of eyes can be seen behind the helmet. You can see it in that image but it's not exactly obvious unless you look at one of those massive banner poster versions of it they sent to GW stores and LGSs

 Grimtuff wrote:

TBM wrote:


There's no visual indication on any of the stormcast range that there's anything in that armour but a spirit. If they're really individuals, where's the individuality? Space Marines have purity seals, bionic eyes, bionic limbs, crux terminatus, imperial laurels, and other kinds of markings and awards on their armour to communicate that these are individuals with histories. There's none of that here, despite each "Eternal" being of widely disparate races and cultures. You brought up Witch Elves, but here is why thats a false equivalent:

The only evidence I've seen anywhere is in the giant versions of this image where a pair of eyes can be seen behind the helmet. You can see it in that image but it's not exactly obvious unless you look at one of those massive banner poster versions of it they sent to GW stores and LGSs

It's the visuals of the model that matters though. The premise had promise: Heroes of different races cultures and genders being turned into immortals and coming together.

None of this comes through in the model. Judging from the model's visuals, these are all 8 ft emotionless suits of armour with chests 4 ft wide who all have the proportions of steroidal human males. Nay, Space Marines.

And then they charge £30 for five basic eternals, when the fluff is just like Space Marines, the game AoS is inferior to 40k and is less stable and it's slightly more expensie than terminators. A child who likes the look of hulking superhero models will go for the cheaper one for the game most are already playing (40k), which lets face it, has more iconic design. This isn't for WHFB vets, it's for children, but everytime a child buys them he or she is turning down a video game. For only £6 more, I could buy two of these:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Daemons-Bloodletters-of-Khorne and outnumber the Stormcasts 4 to 1 in AoS and already have the basis of a 40k army.

TBM wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

TBM wrote:


There's no visual indication on any of the stormcast range that there's anything in that armour but a spirit. If they're really individuals, where's the individuality? Space Marines have purity seals, bionic eyes, bionic limbs, crux terminatus, imperial laurels, and other kinds of markings and awards on their armour to communicate that these are individuals with histories. There's none of that here, despite each "Eternal" being of widely disparate races and cultures. You brought up Witch Elves, but here is why thats a false equivalent:

The only evidence I've seen anywhere is in the giant versions of this image where a pair of eyes can be seen behind the helmet. You can see it in that image but it's not exactly obvious unless you look at one of those massive banner poster versions of it they sent to GW stores and LGSs

It's the visuals of the model that matters though. The premise had promise: Heroes of different races cultures and genders being turned into immortals and coming together.

None of this comes through in the model. Judging from the model's visuals, these are all 8 ft emotionless suits of armour with chests 4 ft wide who all have the proportions of steroidal human males. Nay, Space Marines.

And then they charge £30 for five basic eternals, when the fluff is just like Space Marines, the game AoS is inferior to 40k and is less stable and it's slightly more expensie than terminators. A child who likes the look of hulking superhero models will go for the cheaper one for the game most are already playing (40k), which lets face it, has more iconic design. This isn't for WHFB vets, it's for children, but everytime a child buys them he or she is turning down a video game. For only £6 more, I could buy two of these:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Daemons-Bloodletters-of-Khorne and outnumber the Stormcasts 4 to 1 in AoS and already have the basis of a 40k army.

Just for clarification, I don't disagree with you on any of your points. I was just pointing out there is in fact a person behind those helmets (apparently, and it's hidden in one piece of art and is only properly visible when it is blown up. Go figure. ). Were the Sigmarines a fantasy version of Thousand Sons then the existing model's visuals would have made sense IMO.

As good as placing a cup (which you can purchase at any dollar shop for a dollar) inside a box, call it a paint pot and charge a premium, then gullible idiots buy the product.

I use a plastic cup, no not that plastic cup.