I see a lot of DC heavy lists lately and it feels like is the only way to make them competitive while allying with some kind of shottiness.

What would make Blood angels a more competitive army? cents, thunderfire, stormtalons,...would this alone make them a competitive army or would they need better CT and formations? what are some of the best posible allies that fit BA´s CC punchiness?

well frankly, from what I understand, they got the short end of the stick, a worse version of dark angels.

Dark Angels in 6th were way worse than space marines because they were like the test codex.

Same for blood angels, they came out, then the space marines did, space marines got a large set of buffs, the biggest of which being the gladius strike force. Being a pretty great set of formations, all the things that the blood angels get, are nothing compared to cents, better devs, and free razorbacks + gak tons of doctrines.

just my $0.02

happy wargaming,

-Mikey

Give us the buffs/points drops that scouts, dreads and termis got for SM. Give us the tank squadrons and allow baals to squadron with benefits.
Move assault marines back to Troops again and allow them to take razors at a 35pt deduction like before. Baals back to FA and scout returned to them.
Blood talons should be halfway between what they were before and what they are now - every unsaved wound caused grants an additional attack, these additional attacks cannot grant further additional attacks.
Priests kept in HQ but 3 to a slot.
SG reduced to 30pts each.
Give Tycho Dead mans hand back.
Give Sanguinor his extra wound, 3++ and old benefits back.
Move Seth back to HQ.
DoA returned as part of our 'chapter tactics'.

The only thing I have suggested without precedent is the SG points deduction.

Are you asking what GW should do or what we should do while waiting for the new dex?

 soomemafia wrote:
Are you asking what GW should do or what we should do while waiting for the new dex?

I was asking what GW should do/add, but in terms allies, what we should do while waiting for the next dex.

I don't think BA conceptually work in 7th ed, so it's more of a failing than just the codex being gak. (Which it is)

The idea of power armor assault units just doesn't work in the high firepower environment of 7th. BA can't get there, and often when they do, they are greeted by real CC units like Wraiths.

BA are not likely to ever get vanilla-level tech ever again based off GW's last three years of publishing.

I've only used it for two games, but so far I am very pleased with the following allied detachment.

SoT brings the Dakka. Dante/SG/DC brings the chopping.


Allied Detachment - Sentinels of Terra
- Close ranged bolter drill
- Centurion Devs as Elite
- Tank Hunter on Devs/Centurion Devs

HQ
Librarian, Auspex, Divination
- I might use the 18" relic auspex
- Goes with cents in the pod

Elites
Centurion Devastators (3)
Grav cannon and grav amp (3)
Omnispex and Missile Launcher on the Sgt.
- ML haven't done anything for me yet
- On a good day, the chest-bolters will be twin-linked because they're Hurricanes, the cents have prescience and they're within rapid fire range. Synergy wasted. Also, tank hunter doesn't really help them, since the amp already allow rerolls.
- They pod in. This keeps them safe during T1 if opponent goes first and allows them to deploy where they're needed.

Troops
5 scouts with bolters
- These have performed marvelously
- I might add a heavy bolter

Fast
Drop pod

Heavy
One unit of two Thunderfire Cannons
- I couldn't fit three in, without removing too much chopping. Also, two TFCs tends to kill things dead, so three would possibly be wasted/overkill.

So what do the BA contribute in your list? Sounds like the list would be better with straight Sentinels of Terra.

Martel732 wrote:
So what do the BA contribute in your list? Sounds like the list would be better with straight Sentinels of Terra.

You might be right.

Death Company and Dante/Sang. Priest/Sang. Guard. And a Stormraven. BA is ~2/3 of the points.

Vertias Vitae with CAD gives double re-rolls on strategic.
Our assault units get a lot better with a WS Shield Eternal Chapter Master.
Sanguinary Priest + bike squad and a cheap White Scar IC can be a decent hybrid unit with some gravs and fists.

Problem with power armor jump units is that cover is meaningless vs many lists. They just dakka and dakka with str 5/6 ap 0 until they die. I have always been convinced that DC are superior to Sanguinary Guard, but with the stealth ruins trait, they could be quite decent with 2+/3+ cover. No invul is still very tricky.

Mephiston is a solid support psyker with his str10.

Fast veichles are nice, but most marine tanks are kinda bad due to SA11 and the long range Predators don't do much dmg.

I made an errata thread in Proposed Rules about this. You can find it here. I am going to make some more formations when I have time.

" They just dakka and dakka with str 5/6 ap 0 until they die"

That's the game now. It's been the game since the middle of 5th, really. 5th ed IG/Eldar could bring the S5/6 pain.

Actually, I was just thinking about BA when a tournament I was interested in going to advertised having more LoS blocking terrain.

I would say LoS blocking, impassable terrain helps BA a lot. Jump packs can jump over and benefit from not being shot up, while other popular assault options like bikes, TWC would be hindered by impassability.

Mavnas wrote:
Actually, I was just thinking about BA when a tournament I was interested in going to advertised having more LoS blocking terrain.

I would say LoS blocking, impassable terrain helps BA a lot. Jump packs can jump over and benefit from not being shot up, while other popular assault options like bikes, TWC would be hindered by impassability.

That's true, but army with scoot and shoot can abuse it as well, so it ends up being rather neutral. Ailaros had a very good analysis of high terrain vs mobile shooting a while ago. Good player with mobile shooting can make it a wash.

Jump pack guys are just completely inferior to bikers at this point because of relentless grav guns.

I'd say BA with some good ally synergi is still quite competitive. Throw in a grav cent unit and some white scar IC's into BA bike units.

With 2 strategic traits and re-rolls you got a pretty decent shot at stealth ruins for 2+ jink (60%?), add in some grav and a powerfist the BA bikes actually become quite decent with ws5. Same thing with grav cents in ruins, with t5 and 3+ cover they become quite efficient, and now they have hit and run in the new SM book.

Between drop pod or high mobility list jump pack units are such and uphill battle. Your not gonna be able to charge Eldar before turn 3 at best. Building a list around Sanguinary Priests, Mephiston, bikes and bringing in some shooty allies seems feels like a viable tournament list, but still far from tier 1.

Remtek wrote:
I'd say BA with some good ally synergi is still quite competitive. Throw in a grav cent unit and some white scar IC's into BA bike units.

With 2 strategic traits and re-rolls you got a pretty decent shot at stealth ruins for 2+ jink (60%?), add in some grav and a powerfist the BA bikes actually become quite decent with ws5. Same thing with grav cents in ruins, with t5 and 3+ cover they become quite efficient, and now they have hit and run in the new SM book.

Between drop pod or high mobility list jump pack units are such and uphill battle. Your not gonna be able to charge Eldar before turn 3 at best. Building a list around Sanguinary Priests, Mephiston, bikes and bringing in some shooty allies seems feels like a viable tournament list, but still far from tier 1.

And if your board doesn't have any ruins?

Martel732 wrote:

Remtek wrote:
I'd say BA with some good ally synergi is still quite competitive. Throw in a grav cent unit and some white scar IC's into BA bike units.

With 2 strategic traits and re-rolls you got a pretty decent shot at stealth ruins for 2+ jink (60%?), add in some grav and a powerfist the BA bikes actually become quite decent with ws5. Same thing with grav cents in ruins, with t5 and 3+ cover they become quite efficient, and now they have hit and run in the new SM book.

Between drop pod or high mobility list jump pack units are such and uphill battle. Your not gonna be able to charge Eldar before turn 3 at best. Building a list around Sanguinary Priests, Mephiston, bikes and bringing in some shooty allies seems feels like a viable tournament list, but still far from tier 1.

And if your board doesn't have any ruins?

Then get a better board? (But seriously, I went to a tournament where none of the tables I played on had 4+ cover terrain... it made my sniper scouts with camo cloaks almost completely useless.) Not really sure what the right answer is here. If there's not enough terrain, long-range shooty units will just be better and there's nothing can really be done since those are balanced around the idea that they can't always shoot exactly what they want to shoot with no cover (to the extent that they are balanced at all, which I somewhat doubt after codex Eldar).

There can be terrain. Why does there ALWAYS have to be ruins? That makes no sense.

Martel732 wrote:
There can be terrain. Why does there ALWAYS have to be ruins? That makes no sense.

Because already strong armies get stronger without 4+ terrain. You could always use some thick vegetation and have it count as ruins?

If there are no ruins, that makes the game extremly unbalanced. It's fine with 9 hills for a narrative game, but i don't really see any lists other than 1 priest and six empty pods working there.

We don't have that many unique BA specific abilities that are potentially really good. I feel that building a list around those is the right way to go.

Remtek wrote:
If there are no ruins, that makes the game extremly unbalanced. It's fine with 9 hills for a narrative game, but i don't really see any lists other than 1 priest and six empty pods working there.

We don't have that many unique BA specific abilities that are potentially really good. I feel that building a list around those is the right way to go.

Seriously? The game is unbalanced without 4+++ cover? Really? Maybe the game is unbalanced because of say mass S6 or unkillable gak like Wraiths. Plenty of battles historically were fought out on open fields. The game should be balanced with and WITHOUT terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There can be terrain. Why does there ALWAYS have to be ruins? That makes no sense.

Because already strong armies get stronger without 4+ terrain. You could always use some thick vegetation and have it count as ruins?

I don't want to play a game where that is true. It's incredibly dumb to put ruins on every board. And cover frequently does absolutely nothing for marines. Scatbikes care not for your cover. Make 50 saves! Oh, you can't? Too bad, astartes...

" it made my sniper scouts with camo cloaks almost completely useless"

So..... 5+++ cover is completely useless? Okay...

I've had good success with a hybrid drop pod/armor list for BA. I'll take 5 armor 13 vehicles which do well against the str 5/6 shooting spam and I'll take drop pods to deliver assault marines and Mephiston into a weak spot. I follow that up with some fast moving objective grabbing units who hug the midfield.

BA fast vehicles are nice to move from objective to objective in the backfield. They become a mobile shooting bunker that is hard for the enemy to pin down.

I do agree that it seem ridiculous that BA scouts and dreads are the only "weak" scouts and dreads in in the Imperium. Furioso's with 4 attacks stock would be so much better .....

AV13 walls were far easier to achieve with the last dex. Avaliable in a single cad. The 2 changes to Baals are what annoy me most of all.

I'm experimenting with lists that have Rhinos and nothing else for armor. I'm really dissatisfied with the firepower and durability of predators. They take so many side shots from drop attacks and fast shooters.

I play in the NOVA area and many RTTs and events use the NOVA terrain format meaning each terrain has 4 ruins.

In fact most big GTs ive seen usually put a fair amount of ruins on each table.

The 2 Strategic Warlord trait relic is very, very good and stealth/MTC has always been super helpful.

In fact, i've been taking CADs of BA partially just to get access to it as well as access to more pods and cheap melta squads (BA do this better than anyone due to ASM)

Without terrain the game isnt balanced because terrain is one of the big things that balances out shooting vs. assault. There is a reason all the big events run some LOS blockers on every table. It makes for a much more strategic game where movement and positioning becomes important. 40k feels far less strategic when playing on planet bowling ball.

To OP question:
-errata the scouts and dreads to match core marines.
-put in a voltron detachment with fairly ludicrous bonuses on par with an entire army getting +1 RP or 500 points of free stuff. Bonus if it doesn't require a whole bunch of crappy tac marines in the core. (It would be nice if they made a "sanguine" strike force able to be run as an all jump pack force in some fashion.)

Without pretending to be tier1, BA would well allie with IH. Vanilla apothecary's units have 4+ Fnp, and other important units may be joined by a Priest for another 4+ Fnp.
Add in some DC for an army with a lot of Fnp.

What would make Blood angels a more competitive army?

They need a redux just like every other book that was released in that stinking batch.. gk, de, orks, am, and even sw. The list is so big for fixing each of these its just better to go back one book and start over from there. Hate to say it but BA are to Marines what DE are to eldar.

DE might be a bit better.

I think they are very competitive personally.

I run a Baal Strike Force Det for the boost to initiative. It makes it the army the hands down uncontested SM killer.

DC unit and an SG unit with an attached Jump Priest absolutely wrecks everything they touch. S5 and I5 army wide is utterly amazing. I fail to see how everyone is having a hard time with this army.

IMO DC work better with Bolters vs pistol/sword due to rapid firing and still charging. SG with a PF or two in there will handle any unit you put on the board. Ive recently added the Libby Dred to my list with amazing results. I love Mephiston i really do, but the Dred delivers on a more consistent basis for me.

Libby Dred
Jump Priest

DC- with bolters and 2-3 with PF's
SG- 2-3 with PF's
Furiouso Dred- w talons for fluff

2 tac squads

2 Stormravens with Hurricane bolters

EVERYTHING is inside the Stormravens except jump units who hide in the "game breaking" ruins until the Alpha strike/pod, JSJ, DW drop, hordes, get close enough to charge. "Relies" on getting the charge off, and trying to get the descent of angels warlord trait, but i personally have never lost with this above list.

Beavetron wrote:
I think they are very competitive personally.

I run a Baal Strike Force Det for the boost to initiative. It makes it the army the hands down uncontested SM killer.

DC unit and an SG unit with an attached Jump Priest absolutely wrecks everything they touch. S5 and I5 army wide is utterly amazing. I fail to see how everyone is having a hard time with this army.

IMO DC work better with Bolters vs pistol/sword due to rapid firing and still charging. SG with a PF or two in there will handle any unit you put on the board. Ive recently added the Libby Dred to my list with amazing results. I love Mephiston i really do, but the Dred delivers on a more consistent basis for me.

Libby Dred
Jump Priest

DC- with bolters and 2-3 with PF's
SG- 2-3 with PF's
Furiouso Dred- w talons for fluff

2 tac squads

2 Stormravens with Hurricane bolters

EVERYTHING is inside the Stormravens except jump units who hide in the "game breaking" ruins until the Alpha strike/pod, JSJ, DW drop, hordes, get close enough to charge. "Relies" on getting the charge off, and trying to get the descent of angels warlord trait, but i personally have never lost with this above list.

" I fail to see how everyone is having a hard time with this army. "

I shoot all your guys to death before you can charge. That's why we are having a problem.

" "Relies" on getting the charge off"

I put my guys in Rhinos. You can't charge me. You lose.

And if you are a troll, I consider myself trolled, because I took your post seriously.

" I shoot all your guys to death before you can charge. That's why we are having a problem."

you shoot all my 2+/5+++/probably 3++++ models to death, that will hopefully start on a board with line blocking terrain anyway? How?

"I put my guys in Rhinos. You can't charge me. You lose."

Who says my two dreads hopping out of an assault flyer cant charge your rhino? who says the 10 man tac squad that hits at S5 I5 cant charge out of the assault flyer after the dread kills your "rhino" last time i checked rhino's are one of the easiest vehicles to pop.

Coming in with a defeatest attitude isnt going to contribute at all. Yes some armies are more competitive but all armies have something to bring to the table. just gotta look a little harder in some codexes.

Beavetron wrote:
" I shoot all your guys to death before you can charge. That's why we are having a problem."

you shoot all my 2+/5+++/probably 3++++ models to death, that will hopefully start on a board with line blocking terrain anyway? How?

"I put my guys in Rhinos. You can't charge me. You lose."

Who says my two dreads hopping out of an assault flyer cant charge your rhino? who says the 10 man tac squad that hits at S5 I5 cant charge out of the assault flyer after the dread kills your "rhino" last time i checked rhino's are one of the easiest vehicles to pop.

Coming in with a defeatest attitude isnt going to contribute at all. Yes some armies are more competitive but all armies have something to bring to the table. just gotta look a little harder in some codexes.

I'm not sure you know how to play the game....

Death Company, tact marines, dreads, Stormravens and SG are at BEST average in terms of survivability. I'd lean towards mediocre or poor overall.

Rhinos are junk....they are easy to kill in multiple ways....but who cares? Their jobs is to prevent you, or delay you from killing anything IMPORTANT until you are shot off of the board. Break 2, or 5 or 15 rhinos and a good player wouldn't care if you had to trade a tactical squad or dread to do it.

Rules issues; You know that the dreads CANNOT charge the turn the ravens come on the board right? No coming on from reserve, dropping out then charging, so you have to hang in the air for at least 1 turn vulnerable to enemy fire power. Second, You realize you can't charge a dread into a rhino, then charge the contents with tact marines (lol, tactical marines) in the same turn right? So you are AGAIN, hanging out for a turn, vulnerable.

Martel is a bit of a defeatist, but that's because he's a solid player playing a mediocre army against other solid players that aren't handicapped by a slowed book. He knows the math, he's played the games, and he and his opponents know all the weaknesses of the BA book WAY better than you do. If you are playing Beer and Pretzels fluff bunny level 40k....yeah, you can win with that list, but it's not going to hold up in a serious hard core environment against good opponents.

Greetings Beavetron, meet Martel732. He has 10238 posts, 10,000 of which are about how much Blood Angels, the army he plays, can't hold a candle to other competitive armies.

I'm not choosing sides or saying anyone is right or wrong...just letting Beavetron know what he's getting into. Carry on.

Beavetron wrote:
I think they are very competitive personally.

I run a Baal Strike Force Det for the boost to initiative. It makes it the army the hands down uncontested SM killer.

DC unit and an SG unit with an attached Jump Priest absolutely wrecks everything they touch. S5 and I5 army wide is utterly amazing. I fail to see how everyone is having a hard time with this army.

IMO DC work better with Bolters vs pistol/sword due to rapid firing and still charging. SG with a PF or two in there will handle any unit you put on the board. Ive recently added the Libby Dred to my list with amazing results. I love Mephiston i really do, but the Dred delivers on a more consistent basis for me.

Libby Dred
Jump Priest

DC- with bolters and 2-3 with PF's
SG- 2-3 with PF's
Furiouso Dred- w talons for fluff

2 tac squads

2 Stormravens with Hurricane bolters

EVERYTHING is inside the Stormravens except jump units who hide in the "game breaking" ruins until the Alpha strike/pod, JSJ, DW drop, hordes, get close enough to charge. "Relies" on getting the charge off, and trying to get the descent of angels warlord trait, but i personally have never lost with this above list.

I get this feeling you don't have much experience with the a-game lists from the big boy codices. Eldar scat bikes would shoot the Ravens out of the sky, while the wraithknight would wreck anything he fights. Firebase cadre would pick and down a raven on entry. Battle companies would put up a bloody fight but end up with a dozen different obsec units still on the board on objectives while you have maybe an empty raven left at the end. Decurion would counter charge you with invincible lychguard stars, Orikan stars, and harvest wraiths. Flying circus daemons wouldn't bat an eye at this list. Even the void shield green tide combo from orks, as well as the stompa+ msu combo and trukk spam msu lists would be hilariously hard to handle.

Go to some decently large tourneys (I'm talking like 30+ 2 day events, not those little 8 man local ones,) to get some experience with the top lists played by good players, and you'll begin to see that although BA have things they can contribute as allies like meltacide pods and taxi services, they cannot stand alone or even as the majority of your army and expect to commonly be at top tables.

" that will hopefully start on a board with line blocking terrain anyway?"

That's a massive ,massive assumption. And you have to move at some point when the shooty lists start taking all the objectives, right? Once the Eldar starting forcing 40+ armor saves a turn from 36" away, it starts looking bad quickly.

I'm pretty much just going to let others explain this, because I don't see any reason to add on to the 10,000 unnecessarily. Also, I don't claim to have any special magic knowledge that other good players on there don't have. I've probably just lived it a bit more because I only own mono-BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Greetings Beavetron, meet Martel732. He has 10238 posts, 10,000 of which are about how much Blood Angels, the army he plays, can't hold a candle to other competitive armies.

I'm not choosing sides or saying anyone is right or wrong...just letting Beavetron know what he's getting into. Carry on.

That's not fair! I've got at least 500 or so about Riptides.

"Coming in with a defeatest attitude isnt going to contribute at all"

I not coming in with a defeatist attitude without a lot of data points to back it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Beavetron wrote:
" I shoot all your guys to death before you can charge. That's why we are having a problem."

you shoot all my 2+/5+++/probably 3++++ models to death, that will hopefully start on a board with line blocking terrain anyway? How?

"I put my guys in Rhinos. You can't charge me. You lose."

Who says my two dreads hopping out of an assault flyer cant charge your rhino? who says the 10 man tac squad that hits at S5 I5 cant charge out of the assault flyer after the dread kills your "rhino" last time i checked rhino's are one of the easiest vehicles to pop.

Coming in with a defeatest attitude isnt going to contribute at all. Yes some armies are more competitive but all armies have something to bring to the table. just gotta look a little harder in some codexes.

I'm not sure you know how to play the game....

Death Company, tact marines, dreads, Stormravens and SG are at BEST average in terms of survivability. I'd lean towards mediocre or poor overall.

Rhinos are junk....they are easy to kill in multiple ways....but who cares? Their jobs is to prevent you, or delay you from killing anything IMPORTANT until you are shot off of the board. Break 2, or 5 or 15 rhinos and a good player wouldn't care if you had to trade a tactical squad or dread to do it.

Rules issues; You know that the dreads CANNOT charge the turn the ravens come on the board right? No coming on from reserve, dropping out then charging, so you have to hang in the air for at least 1 turn vulnerable to enemy fire power. Second, You realize you can't charge a dread into a rhino, then charge the contents with tact marines (lol, tactical marines) in the same turn right? So you are AGAIN, hanging out for a turn, vulnerable.

Martel is a bit of a defeatist, but that's because he's a solid player playing a mediocre army against other solid players that aren't handicapped by a slowed book. He knows the math, he's played the games, and he and his opponents know all the weaknesses of the BA book WAY better than you do. If you are playing Beer and Pretzels fluff bunny level 40k....yeah, you can win with that list, but it's not going to hold up in a serious hard core environment against good opponents.

In Lana's voice: YUUUUUUP.

BA bike libbies are quite good as well. Poweraxe + furious charge make our librarians very cheap beatsticks and being able to switch powers from game to game make them very flexible.

Str 6 force will scare a lot of units, and with BA primaris that's 6 attacks on avg when charging (if you don't get denied),

Precognition in Divination lets you re-roll jink saves, you won't always get it, but there are good primaris spells in both disciplines.

Since often libbies fuction as batteries for other psykers, having a strong close combat one is nice for later turns, one of the reasons why Mephiston is still competitive.

Beavetron wrote:
" I shoot all your guys to death before you can charge. That's why we are having a problem."

you shoot all my 2+/5+++/probably 3++++ models to death, that will hopefully start on a board with line blocking terrain anyway? How?

"I put my guys in Rhinos. You can't charge me. You lose."

Who says my two dreads hopping out of an assault flyer cant charge your rhino? who says the 10 man tac squad that hits at S5 I5 cant charge out of the assault flyer after the dread kills your "rhino" last time i checked rhino's are one of the easiest vehicles to pop.

Coming in with a defeatest attitude isnt going to contribute at all. Yes some armies are more competitive but all armies have something to bring to the table. just gotta look a little harder in some codexes.

Every point you've made is flawed.

Charges are declared BEFORE you fight any combats. All charges are resolved before fighting. If a dread charges the rhino, once the rhino dies, you cannot charge the things inside since the charge sub-phase is already over!

Please feel free to turtle your assault units in your own backfield while my units go grab objectives. You know...the way you win games. (EDIT and when you start jumping across the board, you will get shot to death. You are aware that the bane of 2+(3+)/5+++ (SG and DC have no invuln without storm shield. which I dont remember if either can take) is massed lasgun (bolter/pulse rifle) fire. Every 1 rolled is a loss of lots of points and attack capabilities when you only have 5 30+ point models in the unit.

Also, please hover your storm ravens to get out. If you do skys of fury they cannot assault the same turn. Same for the dreads. Also they cant assault the turn they arrive from reserves regardless. Have fun when someone shoots a plane down and you lose 1/3 of your army.


EDIT: I play Dark Angels...Im going to walk right up next to you and shoot. Then get another round of shooting when you charge me also. Those SG/DC are NOT making it into combat without losing at least 3 models and probably 5+.

It is true. Pure BA struggle to compete. What we really need are units with staying power, we just lack anything really durable.

Actually what we need is damage output that is viable from T1 and isn't reliant on getting the charge. However as an assault army, we're unlikely to see that until they re-address the shooting vs punching power imbalance...

D

I don't think that dude is coming back. Even an Eldar player would have a hard time convincing me he wins EVERY game. Sometimes things DO go wrong, even for the most OP lists.

I do feel like we're about in the same boat as wolves, DE, AM, orks, GK, and to a great extent nids. Really, there are only like 3 to 4 codexes that are problematically powerful. And from that list of decidedly meh codices, we are on par or slightly worse than wolves and equal to or better than orks, DE, GK, etc. Nids are better mainly because of forgeworld and the flyrant.

Our choices for remaining competitive got more limited when the new marine dex came out. And while i would LOVE if they FAQd us, i don't think its going to happen. But let's just take a look at the units we still have as building blocks for an army

LoW
-Dante

HQ
-Mephiston
-Sanguinary Priests
-Librarians
-Astorath

Elites
-Death Company
-Sanguinary Guard
-Furioso Dreads (but only with frag cannons)
-Command Squads
-Sternguard vets

Troops
-Tactical marines (are still awesome due to furious charge and access to fast transports and 4 flamers per squad)

Fast Attack
-Grav Bikes
-Min maxxed assault marine squads in pods (or with jump packs if Dante is your warlord)

Heavy Support
-Tri las preds
-Baal preds (this is meta dependant. My local scene is filled with av10-11 vehicles and t4 3+ infantry and bikes, so my Baals clean house. YMMV)
-Stormraven (in certain lists)

I dunno about all of you, but i can still build a mean army around all lf that, and those units just encompass the ones we have that are either unique, as good as or better than their vanilla counterparts.

Sanguinary Guard are largely terrible. I wouldn't list them under usable since Death Company are more durable and efficient for the cost.

With the return of volume of fire being many peoples preferred method of bringing things down (scatter lasers and bolters being the primary offenders) the value of a 2+ armor save has increased. Granted, i will take a unit of death co over sanguinary guard any day if there isnt a character attached, but SG are one of those units whos power increases with every support or combat character attached to them. A big unit with Dante and a priest is a very real and hard to shift threat.

I love my 8 man SG with Dante and priest. They are a fun mini star that had been doing well in my games.

"I love my 8 man SG with Dante and priest. "

That's a 500 pt squad. All T4. I'll pass, thanks.

" the value of a 2+ armor save has increased."

Not if the unit costs more than double a space marine.

I used to be one of the guys talking up Sanguinary guard, and now that they're cheaper and can be fielded in larger squads, I loved them even more....

....BUT, there's just a ton of Grav out there. Like...Grav LITERALLY falling from the skies in drop pods. I just can't see spending that many points on a unit that many of my opponents have the PERFECT at-ranged answer for.

At this point, if I had the models (which I don't) my BA jump pack deathstar would be Dante with a Command Squad (with 3 Storm Shields), or Dante, a Sanguinary Priest, and 10 Vanguard Veterans with as many Storm shields as I could shoehorn into the list. Basically...Dante, some FnP, and Stormshield toting guys to LoS to if I feel the need....Dante is good enough to wreck a lot of face by himself if he has the ablative wounds to get him around the field.

Either way, Grav...boo hiss.

Even at t4, a 2+ armor save with feel no pain in cover is going to be difficult for most armies to shift, particularly with a guy with 4 wounds, EW, and a 2+/4++/5+++ to tank wounds on. I've even been experimenting with an iron hands shield eternal master on a bike to run with them.

And yes, a 5 man squad with Dante and a priest is around 500 points, but I have almost never had them fail to make up more than their points cost and impact the game in a significant way. In some cases, the unit has almost single handedly won me the day.

I'm not paying points for Dante to have a WK stomp him. Plus, many lists can angle shots into your SG and avoid the Dante tank.

 th3maninblak wrote:
With the return of volume of fire being many peoples preferred method of bringing things down (scatter lasers and bolters being the primary offenders) the value of a 2+ armor save has increased. Granted, i will take a unit of death co over sanguinary guard any day if there isnt a character attached, but SG are one of those units whos power increases with every support or combat character attached to them. A big unit with Dante and a priest is a very real and hard to shift threat.

3+/5+++ is MUCH more valuable than a 2+. SURE you can attach a Priest to them, but by that logic I can just keep attaching other characters to the Death Company to keep up with the point costs.

 Voidwraith wrote:
I used to be one of the guys talking up Sanguinary guard, and now that they're cheaper and can be fielded in larger squads, I loved them even more....

....BUT, there's just a ton of Grav out there. Like...Grav LITERALLY falling from the skies in drop pods. I just can't see spending that many points on a unit that many of my opponents have the PERFECT at-ranged answer for.

At this point, if I had the models (which I don't) my BA jump pack deathstar would be Dante with a Command Squad (with 3 Storm Shields), or Dante, a Sanguinary Priest, and 10 Vanguard Veterans with as many Storm shields as I could shoehorn into the list. Basically...Dante, some FnP, and Stormshield toting guys to LoS to if I feel the need....Dante is good enough to wreck a lot of face by himself if he has the ablative wounds to get him around the field.

Either way, Grav...boo hiss.

This I can agree with. Grav heavy armies are the only armies where I get really worried about my SG and Dante not doing anything. Those games become a trial of very good ds placement and timing for the reserves roll for that squad to have any chance.

Umm... Tau AP 2 pie plates? Eldar D weapons?

Martel732 wrote:
Umm... Tau AP 2 pie plates? Eldar D weapons?

Those platforms are not spammed across the entire army the way grav tends to be. SG have good mobility and multiple deployment options. So I have never had an issue playing around those units with the SG. YMMV.

Red Inquisition wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Umm... Tau AP 2 pie plates? Eldar D weapons?

Those platforms are not spammed across the entire army the way grav tends to be. SG have good mobility and multiple deployment options. So I have never had an issue playing around those units with the SG. YMMV.

Interesting. Have you had success against scatbikes/warp spider S6 spam?

Only one player in my area plays skatbikes spam and I just use my SG carefully like I do in every game. Never fought more then 1 unit of spiders in an army before.

I don't throw my SG star at everything. It is my scalpel and I use it like one.

In my current list I also run an 8 man DC squad. That squad I will use like a hammer. I also run 2 pods of melta and some melta attack bikes that play very aggressively. I have found that those threats draw the fire from the SG star. That could be bad play by my opponents but so far it has been successful.

I put a lot of thought into the deployment and use of the SG star and I find that helps them be much more survivable. There are games where they get punked hard but that is happens with any star.

If I am going into a bad matchup for the SG I will put Dante in the DC instead and keep my SG in reserves or in back field cover as a deterant.

I do agree that they are expensive. But I don't think they are useless or even sub par. They are a focused unit that has very viable target selection in my 3+ meta.

I've started running the 1st company task force formation with 4x5 sternguard with 2 combis each in pods, alongside a fragioso pod to take out or distract things like riptides and eldar D artillary. Ive only faced the D support batteries a few times, and they've never gotten to fire.

This all being said, I have been making the switch to 10 death co with jump packs and a fist+sword led by Astorath over the sanguinary guard unit with Dante, but that doesn't mean I think SG are bad by any means. On average, a 5 man scatbike squad will kill MAYBE one sanguinary guard a turn.

The big question here is what do you do to actually get BA into an assault? Drop Pods and Deep Strike for me have always resulted in things getting blown to bits the turn they arrive. The last SG+Dante unit I used had a turn of shooting and that was it. Do we have any other tactic to get our good assault-y units (i.e. SG & DC) into an assault other than sticking everything in Stormravens and hope they don't get shot down the first turn they get on the board?

KefkaZ wrote:
The big question here is what do you do to actually get BA into an assault? Drop Pods and Deep Strike for me have always resulted in things getting blown to bits the turn they arrive. The last SG+Dante unit I used had a turn of shooting and that was it. Do we have any other tactic to get our good assault-y units (i.e. SG & DC) into an assault other than sticking everything in Stormravens and hope they don't get shot down the first turn they get on the board?

Well, we suffer from not having a Wraith or TWC equivalent. Nothing in the BA codex is particularly durable, which is why I've gone to a lot of MSU obj sec shenanigans.

Martel732 wrote:

KefkaZ wrote:
The big question here is what do you do to actually get BA into an assault? Drop Pods and Deep Strike for me have always resulted in things getting blown to bits the turn they arrive. The last SG+Dante unit I used had a turn of shooting and that was it. Do we have any other tactic to get our good assault-y units (i.e. SG & DC) into an assault other than sticking everything in Stormravens and hope they don't get shot down the first turn they get on the board?

Well, we suffer from not having a Wraith or TWC equivalent. Nothing in the BA codex is particularly durable, which is why I've gone to a lot of MSU obj sec shenanigans.

I've been having some luck with a hybrid mech style list. 2x5 man tac squads with 2 hand flamers and a heavy flamer in las plas razors with either 2 baal preds or 2 tri las preds. Use them as mobile cover for as long as you can, and also to shoot some gunz downfield to soften up targets or take out immediate threats. MSU works as well. Running 3x5 death co (or one 10 man squad alongside two 5 man units) has become one of my favorite strategies.

KefkaZ wrote:
The big question here is what do you do to actually get BA into an assault? Drop Pods and Deep Strike for me have always resulted in things getting blown to bits the turn they arrive. The last SG+Dante unit I used had a turn of shooting and that was it. Do we have any other tactic to get our good assault-y units (i.e. SG & DC) into an assault other than sticking everything in Stormravens and hope they don't get shot down the first turn they get on the board?

I DS in well positioned places on the table. That mitigate return fire and use my mobility to close the distance. This does not always work but most tables I play on support this playstyle. I get into my opponents OODA loop by using multiple threats. I play to the mission. 40k is not just about what is the best unit out there and spamming it. I try to insist on LoS blocking terrain as much as I can. I also find that in the west coast meta there is a good amount if terrain, that helps a lot. In the shooty edition of 40k well designed tables make the difference.

I almost always run the turn I DS then setup the assault. Shooting is for suckers. :-)

Overall the BA dex is mid tier IMO. They fit my aggressive threat overload playstyle, so they work well for me. We do not have they overwhelming firepower from turn 1 that the SM dex can bring. You have to be okay with this to play BA. We do have a dex that works well though.

There are so many good to decent units in the dex that list synergies are very possible. Can we compete untit to unit against top tier dexes? No. But we can compete against them with a well designed list and have fun doing so. Personally I feel confident playing against any army. Some I have to play better against than others but I find that fun and don't look down on it. No amy, no list wins 100% if the time.

We can talk about how x unit is crap against y all day. Every army can. I find that making a list that works for me throws all the mathamner out the window because I play well with it. I know what I need to do when and how to mitigate my bad match ups. This is a tenement of all armies when played at a competent level. Some are just easier than others.

I know I'm not alone in including a Vindicator in my BA army, but I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread yet (unless I was too sleepy to notice last night). I was struggling to win games when the codex first came out, and then I stumbled upon a Fritz 40k video about Vindicators, and his recommendations to take at least one, if not two. This is before the new SM codex came out, and wasn't a dedicated BA video. I thought I'd give it a try as I'd always liked the way the tank looks. Plus, S10 AP2 large blast? It stands out in the codex, to me.

Maybe I've been lucky, but the one Vindicator I have has won me some games that would have been dire otherwise. I imagine a most if not all will disagree with the tank's effectiveness, though.

Side AV 11 kills the Vindicator for me.

It's certainly not the most durable of tanks out there, that's for sure. What I've found in games that I've used the Vindicator is that the opponent is more concerned with the Chaplain headed 10 man DC squad jump packing it's way towards combat. I've played numerous games where the Vindicator has wiped full squads off of the table in 2-3 turns before it's been paid equal attention from fire.

Granted, it's not the best tactic and I'm running on a lot less experience than everyone in this discussion, but it's worked out for me. The highlight being squashing an Ork Warboss and five Megan Nobz in one shot. That was a game decider, literally.

 slowclinic wrote:
It's certainly not the most durable of tanks out there, that's for sure. What I've found in games that I've used the Vindicator is that the opponent is more concerned with the Chaplain headed 10 man DC squad jump packing it's way towards combat. I've played numerous games where the Vindicator has wiped full squads off of the table in 2-3 turns before it's been paid equal attention from fire.

Granted, it's not the best tactic and I'm running on a lot less experience than everyone in this discussion, but it's worked out for me. The highlight being squashing an Ork Warboss and five Megan Nobz in one shot. That was a game decider, literally.

Orks have notoriously poor anti-armor options, though. Eldar will glance it out from 36". Marines can target it with melta pods, etc.

KefkaZ wrote:
The big question here is what do you do to actually get BA into an assault? Drop Pods and Deep Strike for me have always resulted in things getting blown to bits the turn they arrive. The last SG+Dante unit I used had a turn of shooting and that was it. Do we have any other tactic to get our good assault-y units (i.e. SG & DC) into an assault other than sticking everything in Stormravens and hope they don't get shot down the first turn they get on the board?

Well, there is the Angel's Fury Spearhead formation, which makes assault immediately after deepstrike possible, but I've yet to see a single battle report with anyone using it and no one in this thread seems to be giving it a thought. I personally feel we'd all like to run it a few times just to try it out, but for Blood Angels players who most likely didn't have a bunch of tactical marines until we were forced to buy some this edition, 30 tactical marines and 3 stormravens seems an almost impossible to overcome barrier to entry. I personally have yet to field this formation, but I've purchased the tactical marines and they're slowly but surely getting assembled / painted. I still need to buy the 3rd Stormraven.

For those who don't know what they heck I'm talking about...The Angel's Fury Spearhead formation is 30 tactical marines with free locator beacons that must start the game in 3 stormravens. The entire formation comes in from reserves together on a single die roll, which is re-rollable and can begin on Turn 1. Afterwards, if a unit arrives by deep strike within 12" of two of the locator beacons, it can assault the turn it deep strikes. Oh yeah...the tactical marines are objective secured. Cool Beans.

The cost of the formation is 1020pts without upgrading any of the tactical marines, which is another hurdle most have no interest in jumping. I personally feel (without any actual game experience using the formation, as of yet) that 3 FIRST TURN (most likely) Stormravens and 30 objective secured tactical marines that can combat squad and drop out of the Stormravens is a decent use of points. It's not the reason I got into BA, but the rest of the points can be spent on that, and there's a pretty good chance my dedicated assault unit is going to be able to do it's work, which is what we're all interested in anyway.

Obviously, the bigger the point total of the game the better this formation works. 1850 is probably the minimum I'd want to try it. 2000 feels a lot better. This all, of course, is coming from a guy who hasn't played the formation yet...but I'm painting it up and will be playing it soon.

It's just Skyhammer -2. Just like everything with BA.

I still have success with BA, albeit, its rough. What I've taken to doing is simply going with 2 scout squads with camo.cloaks whose main job is to hold 2(depending on scouts numbers) objectives and GtG and stay alive, I then grab 3 ASM squads for melta duty, 2 6-9 man death company units with a fist, 2 sang guard squads, a priest and lib, if points permit, Dante.

Then, at higher points, take take another formation,
This Time around grab two fragiosos in pods for that amazing template.

You have the option of
1- all but null deployment, everything deepstrikes save scouts.

Dante- gives you 1d6 scatter, and your units have re-roll to resever rolls.

Or
2- deploy everything, the. Drop in whatever is needed from your pods. Put dante with priest in one sang unit, put another priest and lib in the other. (Note, I don't give the priests much, if I do I give one valors edge, another a normal power wep)

Your force is deadly, highly mobile, and has no real "must die" threats, all are deadly for the points, and all can be in the face T2 against most armies, save jetbike lists.

 raiden wrote:
I still have success with BA, albeit, its rough. What I've taken to doing is simply going with 2 scout squads with camo.cloaks whose main job is to hold 2(depending on scouts numbers) objectives and GtG and stay alive, I then grab 3 ASM squads for melta duty, 2 6-9 man death company units with a fist, 2 sang guard squads, a priest and lib, if points permit, Dante.

Then, at higher points, take take another formation,
This Time around grab two fragiosos in pods for that amazing template.

You have the option of
1- all but null deployment, everything deepstrikes save scouts.

Dante- gives you 1d6 scatter, and your units have re-roll to resever rolls.

Or
2- deploy everything, the. Drop in whatever is needed from your pods. Put dante with priest in one sang unit, put another priest and lib in the other. (Note, I don't give the priests much, if I do I give one valors edge, another a normal power wep)

Your force is deadly, highly mobile, and has no real "must die" threats, all are deadly for the points, and all can be in the face T2 against most armies, save jetbike lists.

Sounds as good as anything else.

 evildrcheese wrote:
It is true. Pure BA struggle to compete. What we really need are units with staying power, we just lack anything really durable.

Actually what we need is damage output that is viable from T1 and isn't reliant on getting the charge. However as an assault army, we're unlikely to see that until they re-address the shooting vs punching power imbalance...

D

When you say durable, do you mean when able to take armor, invuln, or FNP rolls? With Sanguinary Priests, I would think that BA has a great capability to make any unit live longer assuming not AP3 and S8. Sanguinary Priests and T5 bike units are also very tough. The FNP is why DC and SG with SP are popular. Could always go maximum toughness with Assault Terminators with TH/SS.

Not depending upon psychic powers, the only SM units I can think of that can get tougher overall than BA is when you pair the SP with the SM Iron Hands T5 units, 2+ armor units or 3++ invuln units.

This is all of course not counting HQs that you may be using as tanks.

I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

Durable as in Wraith durable or TWC durable. BA durability is a joke compared to the true CC units of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Inquisition wrote:
I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

I don't think BA CC is that great. Not enough of it makes it to the targets.

I'd argue that, sang guard are good for the points. Much better than terminators point for point.

Their only flaws are

- one wound models, no invulnerable save without a lucky lib roll.
-lack of T5.

Other than that, the sang guard offensive power compared to wraiths is a fair bit higher, especially against 4+ or better armor.

TWC are slightly closer on the offensive power thing, but are leaps ahead in durability due to T5 2W. However, they are quite more expensive.

Sanguinary guard are a scalpel, you have to use them like one. That, or you are just using them for extra wounds on Dante.

Martel732 wrote:
Durable as in Wraith durable or TWC durable. BA durability is a joke compared to the true CC units of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Inquisition wrote:
I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

I don't think BA CC is that great. Not enough of it makes it to the targets.

I will agree that wraiths are at the top of the CC ladder in terms of really everything. Offensively they have str6 rending attacks, defensively they have t5, w2 and a 3++ (not to mention the possibility of reanimation protocols) and are highly mobile. The absurd part is that a wraith with whip coils is only 43ppm.

But Death Company stack up very well to thunderwolf cav. Just compare the 2 most common squad loadouts. 5 thunderwolves with 5 storm shields and 1 power fist comes out to 300 points. 10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists is 280 points. Both are highly mobile, have a total of 10 wounds to go through and are reasonably durable. The wolves pack 10 wounds at t5 with a 3+/3++, while the death co boast 10 wounds protected by a 3+/5+++ at t4. This makes them equally as durable to small arms fire, but while the DC have the advantage vs autocannon equivalents, TWC are almost infinitely better against anti tank guns and don't lose combat effectoveness with every wound suffered. The DC make up for this with raw offensive potential, however. The wolves pack 20 str5 rending attacks in the first round of combat, supplemented by 5 more str10 ap2 attacks, which is respectable. But death co rock in with a whopping 40 str5 (and possibly initiative 5) attacks on the charge, with another 8 at str9 ap2. It should be noted though that TWC get these attacks whether they charge or get assaulted.

Really, both are fantastic units that firmly put themselves in the top 3 non HQ/LoW assault units in the game, with the ranking going something like Wraiths, Thunderwolv Cav, and Death Company in that order.

TWC have invulnerable saves. They also ignore -2 for charging and get fleet period.

 raiden wrote:
TWC have invulnerable saves. They also ignore -2 for charging and get fleet period.

I mentioned the invulnerable save in the previous post. The ignoring -2 charge range and fleet i forgot to mention, though bringing that up makes it worth mentioning that death co are 33% more durable when it comes to dangerous terrain tests.

TWC can also get 2+ invul with allies (gk), we don't have any amazing ally synergi with DC. I'd rate MoN spawns, Praetorians, Maulerfiends, Khorne Dogs, Black Knights (hybrid unit) and probably a few more, over DC.

Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

Haruspex wrote:
Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

They can, but why would you not just call them "red scars" and give them obsec by being in the core marines codex with a biker HQ? Because you want furious charge with your 1 attack?

Some people like me weren't drawn to blood Angels because of bikes. We were drawn to jump packs, death company, deep striking, assaulty marines, and so on.

All the main points have already been covered but yeah it's the lack of multi wound with decent T and decent Invul type models that I consider durable.

T4 with 3+ and 5+ FnP really isn't anything to wrote home about. BA felt more durable when we had access to more priests (being back 3 per slot and make them slotless!)...especially when FnP was a 4+...then we at least felt more durable.

As for Sang Guard, a 2+ is useles when there's so much grav about...

D

Haruspex wrote:
Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

Orks can take eldar scatterbikes as allies so they have nothing to complain about. See how silly that sounds?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Durable as in Wraith durable or TWC durable. BA durability is a joke compared to the true CC units of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Inquisition wrote:
I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

I don't think BA CC is that great. Not enough of it makes it to the targets.

I will agree that wraiths are at the top of the CC ladder in terms of really everything. Offensively they have str6 rending attacks, defensively they have t5, w2 and a 3++ (not to mention the possibility of reanimation protocols) and are highly mobile. The absurd part is that a wraith with whip coils is only 43ppm.

But Death Company stack up very well to thunderwolf cav. Just compare the 2 most common squad loadouts. 5 thunderwolves with 5 storm shields and 1 power fist comes out to 300 points. 10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists is 280 points. Both are highly mobile, have a total of 10 wounds to go through and are reasonably durable. The wolves pack 10 wounds at t5 with a 3+/3++, while the death co boast 10 wounds protected by a 3+/5+++ at t4. This makes them equally as durable to small arms fire, but while the DC have the advantage vs autocannon equivalents, TWC are almost infinitely better against anti tank guns and don't lose combat effectoveness with every wound suffered. The DC make up for this with raw offensive potential, however. The wolves pack 20 str5 rending attacks in the first round of combat, supplemented by 5 more str10 ap2 attacks, which is respectable. But death co rock in with a whopping 40 str5 (and possibly initiative 5) attacks on the charge, with another 8 at str9 ap2. It should be noted though that TWC get these attacks whether they charge or get assaulted.

Really, both are fantastic units that firmly put themselves in the top 3 non HQ/LoW assault units in the game, with the ranking going something like Wraiths, Thunderwolv Cav, and Death Company in that order.

I would definitely put Renegade Spawn (for 275pts that's 5 units of 3 spawn) and potentially Lychguard ahead of them (although Lychguard's lack of speed makes that debatable). But overall - yeh they are definitely up there.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Haruspex wrote:
Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

They can, but why would you not just call them "red scars" and give them obsec by being in the core marines codex with a biker HQ? Because you want furious charge with your 1 attack?

Some people like me weren't drawn to blood Angels because of bikes. We were drawn to jump packs, death company, deep striking, assaulty marines, and so on.

Oh, didn't realize that you were trying to be competitive and fluffy at the same time. But we are talking 40K 7th edition here, where a competitive ork list is a mass gunline of grot artillery. I guess the BA assault units just need access to better weapons. Grav stuff for assault marines and death company, power sword upgrades for assault marines, meltaguns and cheaper power swords for death company.

I'm at work so i can't post a ton about it now, but i did manage to beat a space marine list in a 2250 game with baal strike force+first company task force. Mission was ITC mission big guns never tire varient, i think. His list was mechanized demi company+space marine CAD+Skitarii maniple, with ultramarines chapter tactics. Ill post lists when i can.

DC vs. Wraiths is no contest. 10 DC with no special weapons lead by Astorath will eliminate 5 Wraiths on the charge with just average rolls. The Wraiths will do about 1 wound back.

5 TWC will be equally decimated and probably not give any wounds back if the DC go at initiative 5 with a Baal Strike Force.

Psychic powers won't save these guys either as Culexus assassins are easy to obtain and transport in this game.

Don't tell me that the DC will be all shot up before they get there either. I don't live in the same vacuum where the BA Vindicator, drop podding Furioso, grav bikes, etc... Are all ignored so that the DC get shot up exclusively.

As a side note, the Librarian Furioso is nothing to disregard. It will always know the Quickening which can be more than enough to deal some serious damage in combat especially to Knights.

"Don't tell me that the DC will be all shot up before they get there either. "

They will be shot up before they get there. Modern 7th ed lists can burn down all the units you mentioned, sometimes in the same turn.

"As a side note, the Librarian Furioso is nothing to disregard"

No, but you overpaid to get it on the field.

The easiest solution of all with Wraiths and TWC is to not let the DC assault you. Make sure you can assault them.

10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

niv-mizzet wrote:
10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

I missed the Astorath part. Astorath? Really? LOL.

niv-mizzet wrote:
10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

I have never seen a unit of Wraiths outside the formation. So add in the Spyder, scarabs and 15pts for coils and it's 400pts for DC + Astorath vs. 345pts in the Wraith formation. Not quite half its point value don't you think.

Would you rather shoot the DC, who may or may not be seen on the table (did you see the BAO terrain?), or the Castigator barreling into you lines while 2 Furioso's podded into you army? They will get there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

I missed the Astorath part. Astorath? Really? LOL.

Astorath allows the DC to reroll all hits and wounds in combat. He's what allows them to reliably kill all those death stars you are impotent against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"Don't tell me that the DC will be all shot up before they get there either. "

They will be shot up before they get there. Modern 7th ed lists can burn down all the units you mentioned, sometimes in the same turn.

Ha Ha Ha. You don't play on the table do you. Just theory hammer all day long?

Here is a battle report with a Gladius (full of Razorbacks and 5-man squads) vs. a double Wraithknight list with 2 units of Warp Spiders, Scatter laser War Walkers, D-cannon artillery, etc.... And NOTHING dies on turn 1 ....... from either side. No nightlight. No null deployment, in fact Dawn of War deployment which makes hiding more difficult.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9a5KiUz94ew

This was at a tourney 2 weeks ago which featured 3 major GT winners of the last year and a half. One of them is playing in this game. Nothing died turn 1.

I didn't say turn one. I said in one turn. I could be turn 3 that you get vaporized. It doesn't really matter. DC are pretty easy to counter: shoot them or assault them.

The issue i have with Astorath is it's so obvious what that unit needs to do, any player familiar with how much dmg they do on the charge won't let it happen and target priority becomes easy for opponent.

I do like to use DC/Asto, but they usually only do well vs other assault lists when you can screen them with cheap models or if opponent is running a Deathstar and unaware of what they do on the charge.

A canoptek harvest wraith formation dosnt mind getting shot to death since they are quite cost effcient at soaking dmg, that is why they outshine units like the Death Company.

BA work just fine... Just play Tyranid, Dark Eldar, Guard, Orks, CSM, and all the other pre 2015 factions

Or play them as vanilla SM against post 2015 factions.

Or be a taxi service for allies.

Or just have a little lower win ratio. It's not like they can't win; it's just that everything is a lil harder.

Astorath with 10 death co is quickly becoming my go to main unit in most games, and is up there with Dante+Priest+Sanguinary guard. While its true that units like Asty with DC don't do well vs armies with a lot of long range shooting, I will say that against medium to short range shooting armies and other assault lists they are worth their weight in gold. Plus, while theyre not a death star, they ARE an anti death star, and tend to kill the things we have problems with.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Astorath with 10 death co is quickly becoming my go to main unit in most games, and is up there with Dante+Priest+Sanguinary guard. While its true that units like Asty with DC don't do well vs armies with a lot of long range shooting, I will say that against medium to short range shooting armies and other assault lists they are worth their weight in gold. Plus, while theyre not a death star, they ARE an anti death star, and tend to kill the things we have problems with.

I would think that most medium range lists can dust them as well. It's not like there's much else in C:BA that anyone cares about enough to prioritize over these guys.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Astorath with 10 death co is quickly becoming my go to main unit in most games, and is up there with Dante+Priest+Sanguinary guard. While its true that units like Asty with DC don't do well vs armies with a lot of long range shooting, I will say that against medium to short range shooting armies and other assault lists they are worth their weight in gold. Plus, while theyre not a death star, they ARE an anti death star, and tend to kill the things we have problems with.

I would think that most medium range lists can dust them as well. It's not like there's much else in C:BA that anyone cares about enough to prioritize over these guys.

A Castigator, drop podding Furioso's, drop podding Mephiston with Libby and assault squad, fast Vindicators, bike squad with grav and attached TH/SS Bike Master.

There are lots of threats the BA can put in the enemies face which either allow the DC to get there or allow the threats to wreck havoc. Heck just ally in SM and have podding Centurions. How about a Librarian Conclave + Mephiston + assault squad that Drop Pod into the enemy lines. Mephiston puts an end to Imperial Knights and Wraith knights. He just needs to get there. A conclave will protect him after the drop and then the next turn he can go to town. Meanwhile the DC move up the board and assault on turn 2.

Don't limit yourself to just the BA codex because now a day no one plays just one codex. There are allies and and formation attachments everywhere.

"Heck just ally in SM and have podding Centurions."

Might as well just play SM then. If we put C:SM in the mix, then I don't need to field any BA at all.

All these things you list off are rather expensive, and your opponent will have very limited targeting choices. I just think that Astorath is pretty much a complete waste of points.

Word of advice, don't try arguing with Martel.

I like the guy but he is set in "doom.and gloom' mode for the blood angels, and on many fronts I agree with him.

Blood angels however, will never win a game vs a top tier eldar list

Unless you run pure firepower blood angels, at which point you might as well play marines. You won't be using any of your unique units anyway.

 raiden wrote:
Word of advice, don't try arguing with Martel.

I like the guy but he is set in "doom.and gloom' mode for the blood angels, and on many fronts I agree with him.

Blood angels however, will never win a game vs a top tier eldar list

Unless you run pure firepower blood angels, at which point you might as well play marines. You won't be using any of your unique units anyway.

This is basically what I do with a single unit of DC now. Because the other unique units are frequently just victims.

I'm open to convincing arguments, but don't pretend you can run this 400 pt unit across the board (that needs to assault btw) and just win 40K.

Definitely. The most success I've had with pure assualt BA has been running two CADs. At 1500+

Run MSU, but make them big enough to have killing power in assault. They just aren't durable enough otherwise.

1-2 drop pod fragiouso's
2 units if about 7-8 DC

Some bikes with grav guns

And 2 vindicators

HQs would be ML2 libs or sang priests.

The Death company are interchangeable with sang guard vs armies that have alot of good armor saves.

Run dante for fun, but in competitive play he will be focused down, he is good for sucking up shots for other units though.

Also good if you go for deepstrike armies.

I face too many scatbikes for Vindicators to ever be a thing for me.

That sucks, like I said, I'd only run my assualt angels against non-eldar/tau armies.

I'd recommend frag cannon dreads though, they work well against scat bikes.

BA flavour goes out the window for any chance to win vs tau or eldar.

 raiden wrote:
That sucks, like I said, I'd only run my assualt angels against non-eldar/tau armies.

I'd recommend frag cannon dreads though, they work well against scat bikes.

BA flavour goes out the window for any chance to win vs tau or eldar.

Or SM. Or Necrons. Or Daemons.

Frag cannon dreads are pretty universally useful, even if the SM dreads have more CC attacks now.

Martel732 wrote:

 raiden wrote:
That sucks, like I said, I'd only run my assualt angels against non-eldar/tau armies.

I'd recommend frag cannon dreads though, they work well against scat bikes.

BA flavour goes out the window for any chance to win vs tau or eldar.

Or SM. Or Necrons. Or Daemons.

Frag cannon dreads are pretty universally useful, even if the SM dreads have more CC attacks now.

On this we can agree.

Having ws5 and front armor 13 more than makes up for the difference in attacks, and rending is the kind of rule that makes your dice occasionally go "OOPS" and vaporize a unit with a ton of wounds that ignore armor saves.

I will agree that every time I have tried to run a pure assault list I've gotten stomped, but like other people have said, presenting immediate threats that people have to deal with tends to draw shooting away from the things that matter. In my 2250 list, a 10 man infiltrating CC scout squad, and a fragioso+2x5 podded sternguard from the first company task force do that job nicely.

Martel732 wrote:
"Heck just ally in SM and have podding Centurions."

Might as well just play SM then. If we put C:SM in the mix, then I don't need to field any BA at all.

Very much this.

On a related note, does anyone else LOVE the BA psychic power list as much as I do? There is literally only one power I don't want to roll, and that's Blood Boil, and even that one is useful. The Quickening is a great primaris, Unleash Rage is savage, Fear of the Dark has won me games I had no business winning, and even Shield of Sanguinius is useful enough (even if it's strictly worse than its divination counterpart.) The real sleeper hits for me though are Wings of Sanguinius and The Blood Lance. Wings gives you a pretty staggering mobility boost and with the changes to beams in 7th ed, Lance is pretty incredible.

All this is why I am favoring a lvl2 libby with Gallien's Staff and a jump lack in low point games, as 115 points buys you a ton with him. He's even good in combat, as 4+d3 ws5 str7 ap4 init5+d3 instant death attacks on the charge is nothing to sneeze at.

That is one area I feel we did really well in. Although Fear the Darkness is the power I don't want. No one ever fails that roll for me.


For those of you keeping score; I'm back to Blood Angels. My tryst with the new Marine codex lasted all of one game. I still think Sanguinius comes off like a putz in the HH novels, but I can't deny who I am.

I've toyed with the idea of taking a Librarian for the reasons mentioned above. I currently run a jump pack Chaplain with Veritas Vitae (115pts) as my only HQ amongst 10 DC, and it's very effective; the re-rolls from Zealot make up for any DC lost on the commute across the board.

I rarely play in games over 1,500, so I have a little flexibility between what units I take out there dependent on opponent. Would a jump pack ML2 Librarian be a better option? Same points cost, easily interchangeable.

 slowclinic wrote:
I've toyed with the idea of taking a Librarian for the reasons mentioned above. I currently run a jump pack Chaplain with Veritas Vitae (115pts) as my only HQ amongst 10 DC, and it's very effective; the re-rolls from Zealot make up for any DC lost on the commute across the board.

I rarely play in games over 1,500, so I have a little flexibility between what units I take out there dependent on opponent. Would a jump pack ML2 Librarian be a better option? Same points cost, easily interchangeable.

In short? Yes.

The longer answer is that the utility of a libby far outweighs that of a chaplain, as the death co are really only benefiting from the hatred part of zealot. Gallien's Staff lets you relaibly get off a couple powers a turn on any roll of a 3+ for warp charges, which combined with the various blessings and utility powers in the Sanguinary discipline makes for a very effective force multiplier. Ideally, you want Unleash Rage, as it cranks your death co to 11 in a big way, but Shield and Wings are good as well, particularly the latter. Finally, the Quickening lets your libby hang with some of the more powerful combat characters in the game.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 slowclinic wrote:
I've toyed with the idea of taking a Librarian for the reasons mentioned above. I currently run a jump pack Chaplain with Veritas Vitae (115pts) as my only HQ amongst 10 DC, and it's very effective; the re-rolls from Zealot make up for any DC lost on the commute across the board.

I rarely play in games over 1,500, so I have a little flexibility between what units I take out there dependent on opponent. Would a jump pack ML2 Librarian be a better option? Same points cost, easily interchangeable.

In short? Yes.

The longer answer is that the utility of a libby far outweighs that of a chaplain, as the death co are really only benefiting from the hatred part of zealot. Gallien's Staff lets you relaibly get off a couple powers a turn on any roll of a 3+ for warp charges, which combined with the various blessings and utility powers in the Sanguinary discipline makes for a very effective force multiplier. Ideally, you want Unleash Rage, as it cranks your death co to 11 in a big way, but Shield and Wings are good as well, particularly the latter. Finally, the Quickening lets your libby hang with some of the more powerful combat characters in the game.

Wonderful advice, thank you. Surprisingly the has held up against some of the named Chaos and Ork characters and come out on top, easily, quite a lot recently. This in one on one challenges too. It'd be a nice switch up to give the army a little more variety. I'd gotten comfortable with a army that held its own pretty well in average sized games (1,750pts and below). I'll start parodying with load outs tomorrow. I'll need to order a model and also add a jump pack conversion in there too...

I'd been thinking about this thread for a couple of days and a thought came to me - we could always abuse IA:2. I dismissed it at first because SMs could do it better... but if you combine IA:2 with Fleash Tearers strike force - Viola! It becomes unique to BA.

Here is an example 1850pt list. Now FW have stated in emails to myself and others that since the arrival of the new BA dex that Chaplains unlock multiple relics of the armoury. Most Tournaments seem to accept this despite it not yet being an official faq.

Chaplain
Jump pack

5 Tactical marines
Heavy flamer
Razorback
Tl assault cannon, overcharged engines

10 Death Company (or 2 5's)
Jump packs

Javelin
Multimelta, 2 HK missiles

Javelin
Multimelta, 2 HK missiles

Javelin
Multimelta, 2 HK missiles

Javelin
Multimelta, 2 HK missiles

Javelin
Multimelta, 2 HK missiles

Javelin
Multimelta, 2 HK missiles

Sicaran

Sicaran

Sicaran

Typhon

1850pts

The advantages of the javelins over traditional speeders are that they have front and side armour of 11 as well as the ability to deepstrike OR outflank. With the twinlinked (I think will have to check when I get home) cyclone missile launcher, 2 HK missiles and a MM they have 2 tl krak missile, 2 krak missile and 1 MM shot on the turn they arrive from outflank (if they don't move over 6") or deepstrike. And 2 tl krak and 1 MM shot every turn after that. Almost certainly against side or rear armour. They can also start on the board for a heavy long ranged alpha strike. All for a mere 95pts apiece.
3 naked sicarans provide 18 tl st7 rending ignores jink shots and the typhon provides a st10 ap1 primary weapon ignores cover blast. Both units are great counters to new meta builds.
The razorback with its tl assault cannon adds to the mutiple mid strength rending shots and is fast like everything else in the list.
DC seem perfect to go along with the chaplain and protect vehicles/smash hordes.
Of course I highly doubt a single person in the hobby owns 6 Javelins, 3 Sicarans and a Typhon. But it looks to me like a solid top drawer list if anybody did.
The whole list has 12" movement without sacraficing on shooting and its firepower is spread amongst so many units that 10 free razorbacks wouldn't be as much of a problem. The high amount of ignores jink shots and the ignores cover 7" pie plate would be nasty for scatbikes, ravenwing and whitescars and there are plenty of tl shots to worry flyers. Knights shields would easily be bypassed unless they stayed on the back line (even then...) whilst wraithknights are faced with so much rending and st8 ap3 or 2 shots that they would be bricking it.
Necron Wraiths and Thunderwolf Cavalry would provide a problem, but they would struggle to catch their points worth in the case of TWC most of the game due to the speed of the list.

Ok, new rule. Let's not use forge world models

Why? 7th is the kitchen sink edition, everything is legal.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why? 7th is the kitchen sink edition, everything is legal.

It's a great question, but the crappy answer is the BA community on Dakka is so self-loathing that they demand all BA players to only make use of codex BA units. Anything less is a declaration of the codex's impotence.

No other community is so harsh on itself. Must be something about the purity of the blood...

Forge world is fine. It just doesn't help that much.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why? 7th is the kitchen sink edition, everything is legal.

It's a great question, but the crappy answer is the BA community on Dakka is so self-loathing that they demand all BA players to only make use of codex BA units. Anything less is a declaration of the codex's impotence.

No other community is so harsh on itself. Must be something about the purity of the blood...

+1000. I agree with Voidwraiths assessment of many members of the BA community here on Dakka. I also really like his pointed humor to end the post which plays off the fluff of the BA and still brings home his central point.

If its not BA, why am I playing BA?

Voidwraith wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why? 7th is the kitchen sink edition, everything is legal.

It's a great question, but the crappy answer is the BA community on Dakka is so self-loathing that they demand all BA players to only make use of codex BA units. Anything less is a declaration of the codex's impotence.

No other community is so harsh on itself. Must be something about the purity of the blood...

raiden wrote:If its not BA, why am I playing BA?

I'm not self-loathing. I think Raiden has the right of it. If your going to use non-BA units to fix the power level, why bother using BAs at all? It's like building a house on sand. If your happy playing red white scars/iron hands, well more power to you. Just realize not everyone is, and some will choose to not be quiet about it. Hate on all you want. The Chaplains will be along shortly.

They are actually BA units though as much as they are any other marine unit.

Not talking about using grav devs or TFCs.

That I don't have a problem with. I'm just tired of BA armies with few BAs in them.

The main problem I have with FW is its another expensive book I have to buy to keep updated. Not certain I want to keep chasing that dragon.

Well I was thinking about some SM allies, Sentinals of Terra for GravTurions and a TFC, but with the release of the Quad Mortar not sure if it's needed as much.

Looking into Librarian Conclave formation with White Scars for Hit and Run, so I can keep making use of BA Detachment and Furious Charge. Of course having Invisible/ 4+ FnP DC also rocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a question though, how would you run Assault Marines? I'm definetly making them Meltasquads, but I don't know if I should take a Combi-Melta or 2x Inferno Pistols on the Sergeant? Also should they come out of a Drop Pod or Jump Packs?

I like pods, less risk and the 6" disembark is a huge help with melta.

Pods are always better, you can have them come in T1, little risk of mishaps, free storm bolter on AV12 vehicle. Those storm bolters have literally won me games. Ha-ha.

Poly Ranger wrote:


Now FW have stated in emails to myself and others that since the arrival of the new BA dex that Chaplains unlock multiple relics of the armoury. Most Tournaments seem to accept this despite it not yet being an official faq.

Citation needed...

 kronk wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Now FW have stated in emails to myself and others that since the arrival of the new BA dex that Chaplains unlock multiple relics of the armoury. Most Tournaments seem to accept this despite it not yet being an official faq.

Citation needed...

Email them yourself, they will give you the same answer. A rule is broken, common sense is to ask the designers how it is to be played now. I did. I then stated and made perfectly clear that was not actually an official faq but close to it as it is how many tournaments allow rulings based on FW/GW responses.
What more can I actually do apart from go down to Nottingham and hold a gun to the head of the deaigners until they release an faq?

The only time that I would go with jump packs over drop pods on assault marines is if I'm running Dante. Having them reliably come in turn 2 can actually be better than half arriving turn 1, as it becomes a little more difficult to bubble wrap or deploy in such a way that the drop pods either risk scattering off the table or not being able to get the proper angle on a target. Plus if they manage to survive, the added mobility is nice.

And I always go with a combi on the sgt over 2 inferno pistols. It's 20 points cheaper and the extra range is pretty big.

Yeah I'd pick the melta everytime over 2 pistols, the range is a big deal .

D

Sweet, Combi and Pod it is.

Quick question for allies, would Sentinels of Terra work? Say Librarian, Elite GravCents, Scouts, Drop Pod and TFC?

At least, until the Quad Mortar guns have official rules over the experimental rules published so far.