Quick (probably silly) question: I would infer from the BRB that against a weapon of AP4 or higher, a Ravenwing biker always has to take it on his 3+ armor save whether he is jinking or not. Statistically, he probably has a better chance with the rerollable 4+ cover save from the jink. 3+ is a better save (numerically) than 4+, but if you Mathhammer it out, the rerollable 4+ is statistically better (66% chance with armor, 75% with rerollable 4+ from jink). When the rulebook says to take the best save available, I assume it would mean the 3+ armor in this case. This is how I have played it, but I am curious as to whether it is necessarily right. Sorry if someone already asked this, and thanks in advance for any advice.

That is correct. The way i see it, a rule that allows you to reroll only takes effect after the dice is rolled. So you are only choosing between a 3+ and a 4+ before you roll. In which case the 3+ is the best save.

Take moar darkshrouds

Dark Angels ravenwing favorite saying-

"Brothers! We shall fight in the shade!"

The rule says to take your "best" save. A 4+ re-rollable save is "better" than a 3+ (tho not by much).

axisofentropy wrote:
The rule says to take your "best" save. A 4+ re-rollable save is "better" than a 3+ (tho not by much).

Rulebook page 8 wrote:Armour Save (Sv)
{...} Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better. {...}

The rules define "better" as "lower" in this case.

axisofentropy wrote:
The rule says to take your "best" save. A 4+ re-rollable save is "better" than a 3+ (tho not by much).

The rulebook never defines your "best" save as the one you're most likely to pass, but greatly implies that only the numerical value matters making the lower number the "better" save.

I'd argue if you jink the rules require you to take the jink save as it is the best save. Even though the rules don't define it as such, there are lots of things the rules don't define.

If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

No its not, if only a lower number is defined as better. The odds of passing the save don't figure in determining which save is 'better' or 'best'.

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

They don't. They tell you a lower save is a better save. They don't tell you how to figured rerolls into that. Granted it is a permissive ruleset, but you're using logic to work out best from better. A lower save has an increased chance of passing as it's only defining characteristic. Therefore lower means better chance to save.

I know the rules don't hand hold you here but that is not unusual with similar issues in D weapons and the Psychic phase. I bet you don't slavishly play those pure RaW? We both know what the actual rules are in this case so why argue against them?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

The rules say, "a model... has the advantage of using the best available save."

1) Nothing in there about lower numbers always being considered better.

2) The re-rollable cover save is the best save in this case, nothing in the rules contradicts that.

3) The model *has the advantage*. Not the requirement, not the penalty, the "advantage." The most advantageous save is the re-rollable cover save.

Actually their example does show that they consider a lower number to be 'better'. Nothing says that the save your most likely to pass is ever taken into consideration as to which save is 'better'.

Yes, in the example the lower number is better. In the vast majority of cases the lower number is better. But no where does it say that the lower number is always considered better, and it's definitely not better in this particular situation.

While nothing explicitly says that the lower number is always better for all saves, I will grant that nothing explicitly says that re-rolls or other roll-altering abilities should count for which is better, either. But to me, "best" is pretty obvious... you take the one which is best.

I also have to wonder if an example is the best thing to be pointing to in a Rule debate.
Examples are often just one of many possibilities....

 Deathypoo wrote:
But no where does it say that the lower number is always considered better, and it's definitely not better in this particular situation.

So you have no rules to back up your claims that anything other than the lower number is better.

A rule that allows you to reroll a failed save requires you to fail the save before it takes effect.

Until you have failed, you are only choosing between a 3+ and a 4+

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

The rules say, "a model... has the advantage of using the best available save."

1) Nothing in there about lower numbers always being considered better.

2) The re-rollable cover save is the best save in this case, nothing in the rules contradicts that.

3) The model *has the advantage*. Not the requirement, not the penalty, the "advantage." The most advantageous save is the re-rollable cover save.

The rules also define the lower numbered save as being the better save. Please show where you are allowed to determine the status of "better" in any other way

 jokerkd wrote:
A rule that allows you to reroll a failed save requires you to fail the save before it takes effect.

Until you have failed, you are only choosing between a 3+ and a 4+

This.

One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine. Let me lay out the arguments as I see them.

-The rule you're quoting is at the beginning of the armor save section, on page 36. It is clarifying that, "unlike most characteristics, an Armour Save is better if it is a lower number."

First of all, it's clearly intended to clear up confusion for anyone new to the game, not lay down a hard and fast rule. But if you MUST interpret it as the utter law, then please notice that it is only talking about armor saves, not all saves.

That is your entire argument.

On my side, I have the fact that "best" is never clearly defined, so we should follow common sense and chose whichever one is best.

We also have the clarification that the option we choose is to the "advantage" of the model, which is very clearly saying that you should not choose a save that is at a disadvantage compared to another choice.

So there it is, in my mind RAW supports the 4+ re-rollable, not the 3+. There is no requirement for me to find a definition that supports this explicitly, because there is no definition that supports the other option explicitly. While all of the evidence is indirect, there is more of it that leans towards the 4+ re-rollable.

May I ask, as an aside... we are debating RAW here, but do any of you actually think the RAI is for a model to be forced to take a lesser save option due to the rule that requires it to take the "best" option? Or are we just arguing RAW for the fun of it?

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine.

Except one is mentioned in the rules and the other is not.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you to support your position.

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine. Let me lay out the arguments as I see them.

-The rule you're quoting is at the beginning of the armor save section, on page 36. It is clarifying that, "unlike most characteristics, an Armour Save is better if it is a lower number."

First of all, it's clearly intended to clear up confusion for anyone new to the game, not lay down a hard and fast rule. But if you MUST interpret it as the utter law, then please notice that it is only talking about armor saves, not all saves.

That is your entire argument.

On my side, I have the fact that "best" is never clearly defined, so we should follow common sense and chose whichever one is best.

We also have the clarification that the option we choose is to the "advantage" of the model, which is very clearly saying that you should not choose a save that is at a disadvantage compared to another choice.

So there it is, in my mind RAW supports the 4+ re-rollable, not the 3+. There is no requirement for me to find a definition that supports this explicitly, because there is no definition that supports the other option explicitly. While all of the evidence is indirect, there is more of it that leans towards the 4+ re-rollable.

May I ask, as an aside... we are debating RAW here, but do any of you actually think the RAI is for a model to be forced to take a lesser save option due to the rule that requires it to take the "best" option? Or are we just arguing RAW for the fun of it?

Well if you're going for "best" from the owner's POV, then 5e necrons with dispersion shields that can reflect shots might say that they consider those saves "best" over their more probable armor save that doesn't reflect shots. And "best" for me when I really really want your unit to finish off my chaplain so I can shoot at your unit next turn might involve choosing my power armor against your power weapons instead of the rosarius invuln.

Using that definition of best is a slippery slope.

Rerolls are an outside factor not used to calculate between better saves.
3+ is better then 4+ rerolls are irrelivent to this.
Theres no interpretation, no messy rules writing, etc.
You just disagree with the book.

take you 4+ rerollable and laugh at people who say you have to take the 3+

or take 2-3 darkshrouds.

 raiden wrote:
take you 4+ rerollable and laugh at people who say you have to take the 3+

or take 2-3 darkshrouds.

Can keep on laughing. Still breaking the rules

niv-mizzet wrote:


Well if you're going for "best" from the owner's POV, then 5e necrons with dispersion shields that can reflect shots might say that they consider those saves "best" over their more probable armor save that doesn't reflect shots. And "best" for me when I really really want your unit to finish off my chaplain so I can shoot at your unit next turn might involve choosing my power armor against your power weapons instead of the rosarius invuln.

Using that definition of best is a slippery slope.

The book says best for the model, not for the model's owner. No slippery slope problem imo.

Straight face test:

Which is the best save?

The rerollable 4+ one

Now for those on the other side, to show you that straight face test fails:

Which is the best save?

The 3+ one

...

Not sure about you, couldnt say that with a straight face

I'm with the 3+ side, for one design reason.
Most of those that post in this section know that a 3+ is a 66% chance to save, while a 4+ rerollable is a 75% chance.

Point is that if i ask my gaming group about those %s they wouldn't all be able to answer me. This game does NOT require you to math hammer stuff, so it can't ask you to do something that would require math hammering. That is why no matter what the actual chances are the rules tell you that a 3+ is always better than a 4+.
Until we are given a table with the ranking of saves including rerolls then RAW is that a 3+ is always better than a 4+, and unfortunately it is RAI too
This is how ETC rules it too.

Sure it is that kind of rules that you can easily talk your opponent into allowing the rerollable save, but if i'm playing with a 12 years old that doesn't believe a rerollable 4+ to be better than a 3+ then i roll the 3+ cause that's what the BRB states.

My group also lets me take the rerollable jink over 3+ armour, because we think that's how it should be. But nobody in that group is under the illusion that it is based on the rules as written. House rules are ok.

Best save does not include rerolls.
Keep houseruling all you want. Its not RAW.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine.

Except one is mentioned in the rules and the other is not.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you to support your position.

This. The proof of "best" has been given (the most " better") so to disprove it another rule must be given. Not conjecture.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine.

Except one is mentioned in the rules and the other is not.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you to support your position.

This. The proof of "best" has been given (the most " better") so to disprove it another rule must be given. Not conjecture.

Best save being a 3+

yeah except the ''rule'' states the model has the ''advantage'' of taking the best possible save. its does not state a requirement. so it is to my advantage to take the 4+ re-rollable. I do not accept the ''example'' in the case of the 3+ being lower and therefore being better as a legit rule, it is an example and that is all.

From 'Models with More than One Save' in the Shooting Phase section of the rulebook:

... a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.

Please, where does it say that it has the advantage of "... choosing which of its saves to use..."?

 Cheebs wrote:
yeah except the ''rule'' states the model has the ''advantage'' of taking the best possible save. its does not state a requirement. so it is to my advantage to take the 4+ re-rollable. I do not accept the ''example'' in the case of the 3+ being lower and therefore being better as a legit rule, it is an example and that is all.

So why are you breaking rule, by choosing something other than the save which is better? Do you have some other defining of best that you can actually cute, or will you continue to break the tenets?

The rules say the model will use the best save available. Its the very next line about the model having the advantage of the best save. Taken to a pure raw extreme that means a model must use the best save available. The rules also define a 4+ save as better then a 5+ save. However, the rules do no address the notion that 4+ re-rollable save could be better then a 3+ save. Because of this, there is no RAW argument to discount the idea that a 4+ re-rollable is better then a 3+ straight up save.

TLDR: you always take the best save, but when saves get complicated best can be subjective.

The reroll is not the save, the 3+ or 4+ is the save. The reroll modifies the 4+, but only if you fail. Therefore the 3+ is the best save since lower is better. Rerolling doesn't change that.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The rules say the model will use the best save available. Its the very next line about the model having the advantage of the best save. Taken to a pure raw extreme that means a model must use the best save available. The rules also define a 4+ save as better then a 5+ save. However, the rules do no address the notion that 4+ re-rollable save could be better then a 3+ save. Because of this, there is no RAW argument to discount the idea that a 4+ re-rollable is better then a 3+ straight up save.

TLDR: you always take the best save, but when saves get complicated best can be subjective.

The rules give one definition of better, which necessarily defines best. Why are you claiming permission to consider any other definition of "better" when you have no rules support?

In terms of RAW, a lower save being better is only defined for armour saves I.e. a lower armour save is better than a higher armour save. However the game mechanics dictate that a lower armour save is also better than a higher cover save even though this isn't explicitly stated. So in this instance the better save is still the 3+ armour save. You can't factor in the reroll on the jink save as this isn't changing the actual save value to make it numerically better than the armour save.

Don't they have skilled rider, so wouldn't it be a 3+ anyway?

 Anglacon wrote:
Don't they have skilled rider, so wouldn't it be a 3+ anyway?

Only Black Knights have Skilled Rider. Regular RW bikers do not.

Pure RAW - if both players HONESTLY believe for different saves to be the best - then rolloff.

Honestly I think only 'that guy' would force a rolloff on this.

 Deathypoo wrote:

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

pretty much this. I appreciate there's a strict RAW argument to be made, and that is what this subforum is for so keep going, but I don't think any reasonable player would hold to that.

Rerolls do not matter when determining the best save, they are outside factors with no bearing on determing best save.

Best save is the best numerical value available to you. The book example is clear. Stop trying to find loopholes to cheat

Yeah in the OPs example the 3+ armour save is a better save by RAW than the 4+ reroll jink save. HIWPI I'd probably let someone take the jink save in a friendly game if they wanted though.

Sorry I haven't seen the RaW for why a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover? I can see RaW a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ armour. What rules are people using to work out what is a better cover or invun save?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry I haven't seen the RaW for why a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover? I can see RaW a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ armour. What rules are people using to work out what is a better cover or invun save?

You always use your best save. The example in the book uses a Cover Save and an Armor save, if I remember right.

The question is does the BRB give an example of having to take a flat save with a lower number value (3+) over a slightly higher save that's rerollable (4+ rerollable). By the math a 4+ rerollable has a higher chance to make the save than a 3+ non rerollable save. No where in the rules can I find that it classifies the exact criteria for what is better. The example it showed has a 4+ cover vs a 5+ cover and its 100% true that the 4+ cover is the better save. The rules says best save and not the lowest save so I think RAW could should go in favor of the save that has the highest % chance to succeed.4+ rerollable has the higher chance and thus best when compared to 3+ with no reroll.

Please note I do not play an army where this is an issue for me but I just don't see the argument for why 4+ rerollable can't be taken over 3+ flat.

 Vankraken wrote:
The question is does the BRB give an example of having to take a flat save with a lower number value (3+) over a slightly higher save that's rerollable (4+ rerollable). By the math a 4+ rerollable has a higher chance to make the save than a 3+ non rerollable save. No where in the rules can I find that it classifies the exact criteria for what is better. The example it showed has a 4+ cover vs a 5+ cover and its 100% true that the 4+ cover is the better save. The rules says best save and not the lowest save so I think RAW could should go in favor of the save that has the highest % chance to succeed.4+ rerollable has the higher chance and thus best when compared to 3+ with no reroll.

Please note I do not play an army where this is an issue for me but I just don't see the argument for why 4+ rerollable can't be taken over 3+ flat.

Because the rules for saves do not account for rerolls anywhere. any rules that allows a player to reroll failed saves requires you to roll your save before it comes into effect.

before you fail a roll (like when choosing which save to use) you do not have permission to reroll the save, because you have not failed it yet

The re-roll isn't the save. It's a chance to re-roll a failed save. If you make the +4 save, then you don't have a re-roll.

It's still a +4 save; it just has the added bonus that you can re-roll it if you fail it.

So therefore it's a choice between a +3 save and a +4 save, with the +3 being the better of the two.

There is no ambiguity in there other than what people are bringing with them.

JinxDragon wrote:
I also have to wonder if an example is the best thing to be pointing to in a Rule debate.
Examples are often just one of many possibilities....

Examples used are chosen specifically because they define what and when things happens and more importantly which things DON'T happen.

This is the classic example of people arguing over a rule trying to bend it as hard as they can when both RAW and RAI are clear.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry I haven't seen the RaW for why a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover? I can see RaW a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ armour. What rules are people using to work out what is a better cover or invun save?

You always use your best save. The example in the book uses a Cover Save and an Armor save, if I remember right.

Nope it compares 2 cover saves.

Youre told what a better save means, using the example of an armour save
You are told, when you have multiple saves, to take the better save

Putting the two together gives the rule that, when you have 2 or more saves, you must take the better (best) one of them.

there is no rule allowing you to consider, at any point, a reroll

I'm going to want a quote for the first part Nos. I can't find it.

Be precise. First sentence? first word? first Paragraph?

the rule for better save has been quoted often.

Yes the rule that says all saves that are lower are better.

You are told it is true for armour saves. You are then told how cover saves fdiffer from armour, similarly for invulnerable

Are you told to ignore the rule telling you how the save is beter? are you told this is one of the ways that cover and invulnerable saves are different?

If so, please post it.

I see page 8 which explicitly is only talking about Armour saves. Where do we find out this applies to all saves?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to want a quote for:

"You are then told how cover saves differ from armour, similarly for invulnerable"

Question:

If I have a 3+ armor save and a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save, which is the "best" save?

The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Agreed

So which is better, a 2+ or re-rollable 3+?

Rerollable 3+ why?

 Happyjew wrote:
So which is better, a 2+ or re-rollable 3+?

Let me ask you a question: which is better? a 2+ save or a re-rollable 2+ save?

Nevermind. I was thinking the wording in the rulebook was something along the lines of "No save can be better than 2+."

Forget this line of inquiry.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

That paragraph doesn't say the lower the number the better the save. It says a 4+ cover is better than a 5+ cover and goes into no detail as to why. You could say 4+ is better because it is lower or you could say 4+ is better as it has a higher chance of success. The rules don't tell us how to compare saves other than armour saves. This does not mean a bigger number is better, it leaves us to figure out what better is and the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best.

it sounds like the argument against taking the rerollable hinges on the BRB redefining the word "better".

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

That paragraph doesn't say the lower the number the better the save. It says a 4+ cover is better than a 5+ cover and goes into no detail as to why. You could say 4+ is better because it is lower or you could say 4+ is better as it has a higher chance of success. The rules don't tell us how to compare saves other than armour saves. This does not mean a bigger number is better, it leaves us to figure out what better is and the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best.

I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

Fling - the rules define how you take an at our save. Explain how, without reference to the armour saves section, you take a cover save.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

That paragraph doesn't say the lower the number the better the save. It says a 4+ cover is better than a 5+ cover and goes into no detail as to why. You could say 4+ is better because it is lower or you could say 4+ is better as it has a higher chance of success. The rules don't tell us how to compare saves other than armour saves. This does not mean a bigger number is better, it leaves us to figure out what better is and the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best.

I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

None exists. No RaW exists for determining which save is better except in the case of armour saves. Though as Nid points out no RaW exists on how cover and invulnerable saves even work.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

None exists. No RaW exists for determining which save is better except in the case of armour saves. Though as Nid points out no RaW exists on how cover and invulnerable saves even work.

What about page 38?

If a model can benefit from different types of cover, for example, being behind a barricade (4+ cover save) that is also within a Citadel Wood (5+ cover save), the model uses the best cover save available (in this case 4+).

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

None exists. No RaW exists for determining which save is better except in the case of armour saves. Though as Nid points out no RaW exists on how cover and invulnerable saves even work.

What about page 38?

If a model can benefit from different types of cover, for example, being behind a barricade (4+ cover save) that is also within a Citadel Wood (5+ cover save), the model uses the best cover save available (in this case 4+).

Already asked and answered. But once again yes that tells us a 4+ is better than a 5+. It doesn't tell us why a 4+ is better than a 5+. It doesn't tell us whether a 3+ is better than a 4+ or whether a 6+ is worse or how rerolls effect what is better.

col_impact wrote:
Question:

If I have a 3+ armor save and a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save, which is the "best" save?

Obviously the Invuln as it covers any ap3 and better weapons.

A better question would be vs ap - weapons what is the better save? A 3+ armor save or a 3+ Invul?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The BRB covers saves in various forms extensively. What it doesn't include in those articles are the special ability to "reroll"

A cover save is a cover save, an armor save is an armor save and rerolling either is a special ability.

"Better" RAI and RAW is defined in a numerical sense. Not in the sense of value.

Lets examine this angle:
A Black Knight being shot at by an AP4 weapon. The model can get a 3+ Armor save or jink for 3+ re-rollable cover save.

Now apparently the BRB doesn't give precedent to allow the reroll to factor into determining "best/better."
You tell a tourney player that he/she might not get to use his re-rollable jink...see how that goes over.

This dex needs a FAQ.

This all seems like a storm in a teacup, to be honest.

The rules currently don't require you to use the best save. They just state that you have the advantage of doing so.

That's a vague enough statement, combined with the lack of any specific definition of how we should determine th e'best' save, for me to conclude that it's ultimately up to the player which save they use. Just pick one, roll your save, and move on.

Forcing players to compare the statistical probability of a straight roll versus a re-roll at a different value, or to take a technically worse save because you choose to impose a narrow definition of a poorly-defined rule?

Either of those paths lead to madness.

 insaniak wrote:
The rules currently don't require you to use the best save. They just state that you have the advantage of doing so.

I disagree with this statement. The rule states that the advantage of having more than one save is "... always using the best save available..." Always, not when you choose to.

It amounts to the same thing, particularly when they don't give you a precise way of determining which save is the 'best'.


The rule is vague. Enforcing any sort of RAW on this is going to meet with resistance, and it's ultimately such a miniscule issue.

In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

Try not to quote half a sentence, particularly when the section removed is the part actually being addressed.
I will now return to just reading the thread, as I have no interest in actually taking part in this one....

*goes and gets more popcorn*

On another note. I feel like the term "advantage to take" and "best' are keys here.

If you have a deamon prince, with a rerollable 5++, but also jinked for a 4+++ which would you take? I'd take the rerollable.

Advantage is a term that directly is meant to benefit the one having the ADVANTAGE. The term best, by all accounts, is defining the save MOST LIKELY TO BE MADE.

It says a 2+ is better than a 3+. And this is true. However , a 3+ re-roll is better than a 2+. I have the ADVANTAGE of using the BEST save to ignore the wound. Are you arguing this?

Yes, because the rules define the lower numeric value as being the better one. Please explain where you have a rule allowing you to consider rerolls, or a rule redefining better for a second time (the first time being when they define better as lower)

Page and graph please.

JinxDragon wrote:
In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

Try not to quote half a sentence, particularly when the section removed is the part actually being addressed.
I will now return to just reading the thread, as I have no interest in actually taking part in this one....

Very much this!

Let's not forget that Dark Angels bikes have Skilled rider.... so they have a 3+ rerollable.

Only the Black Knights have Skilled Rider I believe.

Indeed, just the black Knights.

It's pretty easy if you understand that the ravenwing special rule allows to reroll a failed safe, not magically change the initial jink save.

So a 3+ save IS better than a 4+ save. Even if you can reroll that save if it fails, it stays a 4+ save.

BUT:

JinxDragon wrote:
In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

^This sentence is just meant to clarify, that you can't take all your saves. In no way does it tell you to use the best save but rather points out what the advantage of having more than one save is.
So even if 3+ is better than 4+, you still can choose to take the 4+ because of the reroll.

I used to take the 3+ until I understood, that there is no rule that forces me to take a worse save to my advantage.

Co0n wrote:
This sentence is just meant to clarify, that you can't take all your saves. In no way does it tell you to use the best save but rather points out what the advantage of having more than one save is.
So even if 3+ is better than 4+, you still can choose to take the 4+ because of the reroll.

I used to take the 3+ until I understood, that there is no rule that forces me to take a worse save to my advantage.

Please read the rule again, as it doesn't say what you claim that it does.

In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

The rule doesn't give you the advantage of choosing which save you wish to use. It gves you the advantage of always using the best available save.

And the best save is never defined for anything other than armour saves and we are never given even a hint about how to compare different types of save.

 FlingitNow wrote:
And the best save is never defined for anything other than armour saves and we are never given even a hint about how to compare different types of save.

That however is not the argument being made in the post I replied to. His argument was you got to choose which save to use, not that the rerollable 4+ was better than the 3+.

I think the main thrust of his argument is the sentence is essentially meaningless and more about context than an actual in game effect (which is correct).

Co0n wrote:
So even if 3+ is better than 4+, you still can choose to take the 4+ because of the reroll.

That seems counter to that however, saying that he gets to choose which to take just because of the reroll.

I agree what he wrote was not as accurate as it could be. Though the essential outcome is the same.

Off topic: Wow, I had no idea when I asked the question that we would have 4 pages of discussion on the subject!

On topic: Perhaps we should just agree to disagree and leave the decision up to individual play groups to resolve it, at least until there is an official FAQ on the subject.

 FlingitNow wrote:
And the best save is never defined for anything other than armour saves and we are never given even a hint about how to compare different types of save.

If you go your route, you have nothing to tell you how to take an invulnerable save

Or, the armour save section sets out the basic rules, and then the invulnerable and cover saves state how they differe from armour saves. Which is what they do.

Thus you CAN compare saves.

IMHO the game Designers did not expect you to take out your calculators and swing the mathhammer.

Since you have the advantage of taking the best save available ( but with no word the obligation) the best save is the 3+ armour with the Option to take a worse 4+ (which you may reroll if necessary).

Btw: the wording of the ravenwing rule is important. It allows to reroll the save. The save itself therefore stays 4+.

So it's up to you to decide if you let your opponent take a worse but rerollable save or stay with the strickt RAW.

 Ghaz wrote:

Co0n wrote:

In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

The rule doesn't give you the advantage of choosing which save you wish to use. It gves you the advantage of always using the best available save.

BRB says that armor save 3+ is better than armor save 4+? That we can agree on.

A couple of scenarios, if you will:

1) I shoot plasma at your captain with 2+ save. I insist you take the save on 2+, thus causing a wound, instead of using Iron Halo's 4+ invu, because the Rulebook Says So. Do you agree?

2) I shoot plasma at your Ravenwing biker with 3+ save. I insist you take the save on 3+, thus causing a wound, instead of the rerollable 4+ cover save, because the Rulebook Says So. Do you agree?

Neither makes sense. Rulebook does not say that 3+ armor save is better than 4+ cover save, it is simply an example that Big Number Is Not Always The Best. It's circumstancial and I get the advantage of choosing what is best for each situation.

No, you do not have the choice. The rules define "better" and thus "best" follows.

Against an AP2 weapon you cannot take an armour save. So 1) isnt even up for discussion using the actual rules.

For 2, the armour save is better than the cover save. You cannot cosider rerolls. If you assert otherwise please provide a rule. Page and graph

Scenario 1) und 2) are just wrong.
Against an AP2 Weapon there is no armour save. End of Story.


And once again and agreeing with nosferato1001:

The jink save is 4+, the ravenwing rule just allows you to take it again if it's failed.
The Cover save therefore is not as good as the armor save.

This is supported by the wording of the ravenwing rule (reroll a failed save -> the save is 4+) and the Intention of the Gamedesigners. They surely did not expect your to calculate the statistical results.

Since the majority seems to agree, that you cannot pick the save you want to take, then it must be the 3+ armour and not the 4+ rerollable.


PS: I play Ravening myself, just to clarify my intentions.

They surely did not expect your to calculate the statistical results. 

Why not they expect you to calculate your army list usibg potentially dozens of sources. A simple statistical calulation is easy by comparison and is a fundamental part of playing the game.

Also not a thing in the rules ever states a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover, or indeed a 3+ cover is better than a 4+ cover.

It feels like I would be cheating another player out of a rerollable save that they paid for - I would give them the rerollable if they want it, despite rules argument.

It seems strange that they could jink out of a plasma gun, but not bolter fire? Both are rapid fire...

Forcing them to 3+ feels like I am being a rules lawyer.

Fling - you keep stating it, but it was shown false. Your failure to abide by the tenets is again noted and raised.

Co0n wrote:
Scenario 1) und 2) are just wrong.
Against an AP2 Weapon there is no armour save. End of Story.

Whoosh and it went way over your head! Point was that BRB does not tell us how to compare the different saves available.

I know what is the best save in each case, so I will use the best available save in each situation, thus I'd use rerollable 4+ cover save instead of my 3+ armor save.

Next time I'll add <sarcasm> tags, maybe that helps.

And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

Please provide the rule that tells me how to compare various saves, not just armor saves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fling - you keep stating it, but it was shown false. Your failure to abide by the tenets is again noted and raised.

So disprove it with a quote that tells us how to compare saves that aren't armour saves. Your dishonest approach does not help the discussion.

Naw wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

Please provide the rule that tells me how to compare various saves, not just armor saves.

Read the rest of the thread, it's been mentioned already. It still doesn't change the fact that your examples with the plasma only had a single save each.

 Ghaz wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

Please provide the rule that tells me how to compare various saves, not just armor saves.

Read the rest of the thread, it's been mentioned already. It still doesn't change the fact that your examples with the plasma only had a single save each.

I have read it and there is no rule to describe that. So you concede the point then, good.

And where is your proof for your claims? I thought so...

 Ghaz wrote:
And where is your proof for your claims? I thought so...

Nice try. I am not the one who made a claim, you did. Go ahead and show us where BRB says how different save types are valued.

If you are allowed to make your armor save due to a weapon being ap4 for instance, why tank the 4+ rerollable? Cause you want dark angels to be good? They'll never be good.... Never...

For real. If you just want rerollables and hard to kill units play necrons. They suck to play against and you won't have friends, but at least your army does rerollable stuff right.

Naw wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And where is your proof for your claims? I thought so...

Nice try. I am not the one who made a claim, you did. Go ahead and show us where BRB says how different save types are valued.

Except you did make a claim, just like you claimed that you still consider a save that you don't get when determining what your best save is. There is a precedent set for determining what constitutes the model's best save. Now prove your claims that that is not how you determine the best saves in other instances. Please prove your claims that your best save is the one that your most likely to pass.

Figures, you can't show me the rule that says how to value different saves, yet you insist that it is there. Now show the rule or concede the point.

I think we are done here, Ghaz, thanks for trying.

And so far, you've failed to back up your claims. If we were to go by what you're saying we would have no idea if a 5+ armour save is better or worse than a 6+ armour save and we'd have to use the 3+ armour save against an AP2 weapon. Maybe you should be more concerned over the plank in your eye before worrying about the mote in someone else's.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
you want dark angels to be good? They'll never be good.... Never...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

wrap it up guys time to play another army

I think we're unlikely to get anything else productive out of this one...

As always, discuss with your opponent if in doubt.

Moving on.