Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

Oh I´m pretty sure when the time for a new ork codex comes, someone at games workshop will just be like: "Screw these design decisions we did in the past, let´s do something completly new!" which ofc, will be weaker then what decurion and co. brought you.

Fauk wrote:
Oh I´m pretty sure when the time for a new ork codex comes, someone at games workshop will just be like: "Screw these design decisions we did in the past, let´s do something completly new!" which ofc, will be weaker then what decurion and co. brought you.

Do you think this will be intentional to create a more tier organized system for armies? such as , Newbie, easy, Medium, and difficult? Or is this another attempt at sales where GW feels they need to reduce the number of armies they produce so they minimize the abilities of a few armies and maximize the abilities of a few?

GW will never permit Orks to compete on an even field with Marines, Eldar or Necrons. Their inferiority to these races is deeply embedded in the fluff. They definitely need a leg up so that any confrontation between a fluffy ork list and a fluffy list from the newer codices doesn't result in an all-out slaughter. It would be nice if units that aren't tankbustas and grot artillery were restored to some semblance of usefulness.

What would it take to make Orks into an army that can fight while enabling players to use units like boyz, dreads and kans again? I'm thinking they would have to change mob rule so that any ork unit that's in combat or has 20+ models automatically passes morale, pinning and fear checks, with the threshold lowered to 10+ if there's a nob with a bosspole present. Boyz squads should also get 1 special weapon per 5 models, including the ability to take burnas.

One thing GW is likely to do is reduce the points cost of all of the gimmicky units so players will buy more models. They will also introduce formations/detachments that provide considerable rewards for using an unreasonably large number of choppa boyz. I'm guessing there will be one that provides 10 free trukks if you take 10 mobs of boyz. It will make all of those boyz mobs fearless and it will be absolutely necessary if you want to compete.

Haruspex wrote:
GW will never permit Orks to compete on an even field with Marines, Eldar or Necrons. Their inferiority to these races is deeply embedded in the fluff. They definitely need a leg up so that any confrontation between a fluffy ork list and a fluffy list from the newer codices doesn't result in an all-out slaughter. It would be nice if units that aren't tankbustas and grot artillery were restored to some semblance of usefulness.

What would it take to make Orks into an army that can fight while enabling players to use units like boyz, dreads and kans again? I'm thinking they would have to change mob rule so that any ork unit that's in combat or has 20+ models automatically passes morale, pinning and fear checks, with the threshold lowered to 10+ if there's a nob with a bosspole present. Boyz squads should also get 1 special weapon per 5 models, including the ability to take burnas.

One thing GW is likely to do is reduce the points cost of all of the gimmicky units so players will buy more models. They will also introduce formations/detachments that provide considerable rewards for using an unreasonably large number of choppa boyz. I'm guessing there will be one that provides 10 free trukks if you take 10 mobs of boyz. It will make all of those boyz mobs fearless and it will be absolutely necessary if you want to compete.

The morale idea is really good actually. The idea of free trukks for taking 10 mobz is....not 10 trukks is what? 250 points? lol 10 mobz is 600pts naked. but really you need a Nob BP and PK so its closer 1kpts not 600 :0 . I really really want to see Kanz and dreads be useful and playable again. I have a very limited budget and I refuse to buy Kanz or dreads until they are useful.

There's a few things I'm certain we will see

Firstly the gorka and morka naughts are going to move to lord of war and become super heavies, the claw will become d and they may receive a points increase.

Mob rule will be tweaked slightly, but don't expect it to change much.

Expect a few new kits, mainly characters Of some kind, maybe a new unit.

But on the whole the book will not change too much, as others have stated gw doesn't seem to want orks to be able to go toe to toe with the other races, they want you to Horde it up, it wouldn't take much to fix orks, just fix assault and they should be ok.

 Formosa wrote:


Firstly the gorka and morka naughts are going to move to lord of war and become super heavies

I'm not so sure about this because then there's no size tier difference between stompas and nauts. The nauts are supposed to fill the wraithknight/riptide class niche while stompas are more equivalent to Imperial Knights, so there's a good chance the nauts will be moved to LoW (assuming the riptide is as well) and become monstrous creatures but I don't know about superheavy.

One thing we are very likely to see is a silly formation of 5 nauts, though.

Haruspex wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


Firstly the gorka and morka naughts are going to move to lord of war and become super heavies

I'm not so sure about this because then there's no size tier difference between stompas and nauts. The nauts are supposed to fill the wraithknight/riptide class niche while stompas are more equivalent to Imperial Knights, so there's a good chance the nauts will be moved to LoW (assuming the riptide is as well) and become monstrous creatures but I don't know about superheavy.

One thing we are very likely to see is a silly formation of 5 nauts, though.

Anything to sell more of those kits. People bought them originally because they looked cool and then stopped when they realized that it would sit on the sidelines for the entirety of 7th edition because it is about 100pts over priced.

Is a new Ork codex on the horizon?

not as far as i know

Orks will get random tables to determine which random tables they have to roll on. These random tables will determine what your units do, each turn. You could have a Big Mek accidentally create a warp rift, sucking half the table into it. You could have a Shootaboy misfire and kill his unit's Nob. Think of the hilarity and fun of this new book!

What? No one plays Orks to be competitive: they like crazy, random stuff!

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Orks will get random tables to determine which random tables they have to roll on. These random tables will determine what your units do, each turn. You could have a Big Mek accidentally create a warp rift, sucking half the table into it. You could have a Shootaboy misfire and kill his unit's Nob. Think of the hilarity and fun of this new book!

What? No one plays Orks to be competitive: they like crazy, random stuff!

Or we chose orks because they are a lot of fun because of the randomness factor. But that doesn't mean our units have to be garbage. some of our best units can only purchase (for way to much) 4+ armor. Our Dok which is realistically the only way to get FNP can't have 4+ armor unless you put him on a bike. the list goes on. Or how about the useless that our dok character (mad dok) comes standard with Cybork ......which gives a 6+ fnp.....even though he already has a 5+.

They wrote the Ork Codex so half arsed that it is bordering on the insulting.

I want to play my orks and have a lot of fun AND be competitive.

Even if GW never decides to make Orks competitive, I think they should make them strong enough that other people can enjoy playing against them. Why even bother setting up if the game's going to be over after one shooting phase?

Don't hold your breath for anything good. Orks were designed to be the great menace which inevitably gets bitch-slapped by the IoM time and again. Got to make those spasssmereeeens fluffy!

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Orks will get random tables to determine which random tables they have to roll on. These random tables will determine what your units do, each turn. You could have a Big Mek accidentally create a warp rift, sucking half the table into it. You could have a Shootaboy misfire and kill his unit's Nob. Think of the hilarity and fun of this new book!

What? No one plays Orks to be competitive: they like crazy, random stuff!

Or we chose orks because they are a lot of fun because of the randomness factor. But that doesn't mean our units have to be garbage. some of our best units can only purchase (for way to much) 4+ armor. Our Dok which is realistically the only way to get FNP can't have 4+ armor unless you put him on a bike. the list goes on. Or how about the useless that our dok character (mad dok) comes standard with Cybork ......which gives a 6+ fnp.....even though he already has a 5+.

They wrote the Ork Codex so half arsed that it is bordering on the insulting.

I want to play my orks and have a lot of fun AND be competitive.

Actually, I had this argument with an Ork player and ended up mathing it out (for full disclosure, I, as a Grey Knights player, was in the camp that 4ppm for a 4+ save was too much. The Ork player was trying to convince me that the 4+ was definitely worth it).

Here is the scenario: An Ork unit of infinite size is hit and wounded by 100 bolter shots. I am told by non-SM players that Bolters are a fantastic weapon for basic infantry so this should be a fairly good metric.
If the Orks are naked, they are wounded by 50 of the shots, and all 50 die. That is 300pts of Boyz dead.
If the Orks have 'eavy Armour, 50 are wounded and 25 die. That is 250pts of Boyz dead.

So, 'eavy Armour is not bad against one of the most plentiful (and one of the best(I am told)) infantry guns in the game.

Edit: For fun, I did it vs Lasguns (which are a bad gun, I am told):

Naked orks: 33 wounded, 27.5 die = 165pts.
'eavy Armour: 33 wounded, 16.5 die = 165pts.

So 'eavy Armour is exactly worth it vs lasguns (that is, you lose exactly the same pts of Boyz)

edit2: also for fun, against Tau Pulse Rifles:

naked: 66 wounded, 66 dead = 396pts.
'eavy Armour: 66 wounded, 33 dead = 330pts.

Making out pretty good on the deal, there!

Eldar Shuriken Catapults are roughly the same as boltguns (but kill slightly more due to Bladestorm).
Tyranid Fleshborers and Devourers are the same as boltguns and lasguns, respectively (as far as points killed go, not number of models dead).

Too bad nobody (except maybe Tau) fields basic infantry guns in large quantities when they can help it. They are the tax you pay in order to field special and heavy weapons. But yeah, if Orks face an army consisting entirely of bolters on a table with no cover to hide behind then the armor is worth it.

I wouldn't call bolters one of the best infantry weapons though. Point for point I would consider them the worst. If tac marines and sisters could take lasguns at a reduced points cost I would go for the lasguns every time.

Impossible to know. Tau is believed to be the next one around the corner and we have yet to see the end. of Age of Sigmar release.

GW has been changing the way they do the codexex every 3-6 codex since the start of 6th Edition through what we call 7th.

For all we know Tau might have a completely different design and structure from Eldar/Necron/Space Marines/Dark Angels/Imperial Knights.

By the time they reach Ork again now that they will also release new AoS army 40K will slow down. Also who knows we might be in 40K 8th, or 40K End Times... 40K Age of the Emprah.

SPECULATIONS FOR EVERYONE!

Well, for Marines you have to take 7 bolters to get a heavy, a special weapon and a combi-weapon. Or be Black Templars who get a much better ratio.

Even a 5 man unit takes 3 bolters for a non-bolter and a combi-bolter.

Grey Knights get 4 storm bolters for each special weapon they can take, or are taking Purifiers/paladins and get a 3 storm bolters for 2 special weapons ratio.

You're always going to be taking more basic weapons than heavy/special weapons unless you play exclusively units with good ratios (sternguard, aspect warriors, crusader/sister squads, devastators and equivalent)

Figured this would be a circle jerk about "how bad orks are".

Any of you run a optimized green tide? that thing is bonkers to go against for just about any opponent. a giant blob with a KFF wierd boy rolling on sanctic to get it that +1. painboy giving it FNP, etc. that blob rolls over just about anything it wants to.
One multicharge and i can guarantee the charged unit wont be there anymore, first blood? good luck that's one whole unit.

One of the regulars at my LGS brought a squiggoth loaded with tank bustas and SAG. destroyed a wraithknight and a half turn one. ended up almost tabling his opponent, was a great game to watch.

we will get the first codex of 8th edition, showing the new format, and getting us a few next gen formations....then every other codex comes after ours decked out with the next gen decurions. tis our fate.

but enough kidding...

as far as making our units and codex good here are a few things they might try.
-bastard version of fearless for orks (something that makes them fearless in the shooting phase, but normal leadership in assault).
-points decreases across the board, orks are all about numbers, the more we can take the bettah (and consequently the funner to fight).

when it comes to walkers then its a little different...i love my walkers and would love to see better justifications to bring them.
-the gmorkanauts get a point restructure. become initiative 3 (to fit the fluff of being piloted by nobz with better init than boyz). get options for taking off weapons or adding more). walkers are actually some of the best shooting platforms in my opinion, the ability to fire all weapons at full bs while moving is amazing.
-either a points decrease or a basic invul (forgeworld had it right when giving grot tanks and megadredds invuls). either will work in the walkers favor. one thing about walkers is that they are underwhelming in small numbers, or extremely hard to fight in large numbers. the more we can bring the better. walkers with invuls becomes the equivalent of mcs, no need to convert walkers to mcs, just give them invuls and they are back to equal footing (5up invul should be the minimum).
-add extra base attacks for all our walkers. the spacemarine dreadnought all the sudden became a more viable choice when they gave it 4 bloody attacks.
-make walker HOW have an ap value, or give them more HOW. i run the ghaz dreddmob and i find having the d3 HOW actually make the difference in combat.
-walkers are slow, so to make it up for the slogging have more shooting options. maybe make all bigshootas and rokkets have a cheep option to become twinlinked. orks need more twinlink.
-give all ork walkers ere we go. while not exactly making our walkers faster it does give them better threat range for charge (especialy on a waaagh) (this is another reason the ghaz dreddmob is good).
-make a cheaper version of armour plates that instead turns an immobilized result into a stunned result, or make grot riggers cheaper and have the option of instead of repairing a hull point they can repair an immobilized result.

im passionate about dreddmobs, but with the current rulz ive resulted into making clever conversions of normal ork vehicles and units and makeign them look like walkers. the biggest change for walkers would be invuls, it can help stem the power creap of dirt cheap melta wepaons and make walkers on par with mcs. but it has to be invuls and not an armour save. most weapons like melta that are hitting walkers are already ap3 or better, the only thing that can cut through invuls are d weapons (but if walkers get invuls then everyone will want more d weapons like the eldar, then we will have dakka dakka posts about what units should get d weapons and at what cost...its a vicious cycle).

I suspect it will largely be a copypaste, except Grotsnik will be removed, Ghaz will be nerfed and Burna Boyz will gain a Soul Blaze upgrade for 3 ppm.

Or things like that. You know, usual GW updates.

The biggest things I can see are changes to Mob Rule so that Orks aren't on the level of Tau in terms of Leadership, and something to increase Ork mobility. Orks are meant to get into CC, but to do it they either have to trade durability for speed or sheer numbers for moving at a snail's pace. Some form of formation that lets them Waaagh more than once or gives them free Trukks would go a long way toward helping them.

Here is what will happen in a couple years.

The design team will decide everything is swinging too much to power, and decide to weaken codex.

orks will be first in line, followed by nids, then probably guard chaos and dark eldar.

then they will realize they are not selling, and swing back the other way, just in time for eldar necron and marines.

It's kind of amazing that people still grasp onto this "GW has a hard-on for Imperial factions" myth, considering that more than half of the Imperial armies are crap and "NPC races" who almost never win in the fluff like Tyranids and Eldar are taking names in every competitive tournament.

This isn't even taking into consideration that 6th edition was entirely dominated by xeno armies, with only vanilla marines having any kind of real presence among the Imperial armies.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

Their voltron formation will require 6 mobs of boys and a warboss. The benefit will be that any unit of boys may permanently join any other unit of boys during your movement phase at any point in the game. This will cause any squad involved to auto-rally if needed.

Some of the auxiliaries will generate random amounts of certain unit types that come from your board edge each turn as long as you have the models.

EG: tide of lootaz- 210 points
At the start of each turn, a unit of 2d6 lootaz moves on from your board edge.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

Pretty much. Orks were also unlucky this time around at being the first of a new edition which almost always turns out badly in comparison to later codices (i.e. look at CSM and the previous Dark Angels book). And honestly, I prefer the Orks being in the upper-middle to middle tier rather than being up there with the crazy codices since I have to actually try to think to get my wins rather than face-rolling in crazy formations. Not to say that the Ork codex can't use several tune-ups but I rarely if ever hear people complaining about Orks being unfun as opponents (though unfortunately there is a vocal minority when it comes to saying how unfun it is to play as Orks).

At least Ork armies still have a plethora of actual builds you can try out that, while not necessarily optimal in tournament settings, can still generally give most opponents a run for their money. This is in stark contrast to the codices that really need work before us like Imperial Guard, Tyranids and CSM.

die toten hosen wrote:
Figured this would be a circle jerk about "how bad orks are".

Any of you run a optimized green tide? that thing is bonkers to go against for just about any opponent. a giant blob with a KFF wierd boy rolling on sanctic to get it that +1. painboy giving it FNP, etc. that blob rolls over just about anything it wants to.
One multicharge and i can guarantee the charged unit wont be there anymore, first blood? good luck that's one whole unit.

One of the regulars at my LGS brought a squiggoth loaded with tank bustas and SAG. destroyed a wraithknight and a half turn one. ended up almost tabling his opponent, was a great game to watch.

Green tide is not much fun to play with though because every phase you have to move 101-300+ models. Move, Run, assault can take over an hour and a half just for that one turn. Big Mek, Weird boy and Pain boy are 3 HQs for this blob your talking about taking, not including the mandatory 1 Warboss. Your talking about almost 200points of HQ for your green tide before you even get into anything like Heavy support or fast attack.. Furthermore, the new KFF SUCKS! its a 6in Bubble that only works in the shooting phase. and even if by some miracle you managed to get a bunch of models into that little bubble and by another miracle were able to get sanctuary off on your weird boy its still only a 4++ and a 5+ FNP. not exactly OP necron lvl. Furthermore if you multi assault, even from the green tide, its a disorganized assault and you lose the +1 attack and +1 strength, so your hitting at S3 and theres still a good chance you only get a handful of boyz into CC because unless your opponent is stupid he isn't move closer to the tide, he is opening up the distance to keep popping shots at it.

A Squiggoth with Tank bustas and a SAG killed a WK in one turn? then that Eldar player didn't know how to play. Squiggoths are slow and Tankbustas have a rng of 24. So He walked into the shooting gallery....and even then the ork player still rolled stupid good against the WK. (10 Tankbustas = 3.3 hits which equals about 1-2 wounds, unless he gets an invul or cover and failed his FNP) Unless your saying the Big Mek with the SAG rolled Box cars and sucked the WK into a vortex, and if that was the case. GG its a 1 in 12 chance.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Figured this would be a circle jerk about "how bad orks are".

Any of you run a optimized green tide? that thing is bonkers to go against for just about any opponent. a giant blob with a KFF wierd boy rolling on sanctic to get it that +1. painboy giving it FNP, etc. that blob rolls over just about anything it wants to.
One multicharge and i can guarantee the charged unit wont be there anymore, first blood? good luck that's one whole unit.

One of the regulars at my LGS brought a squiggoth loaded with tank bustas and SAG. destroyed a wraithknight and a half turn one. ended up almost tabling his opponent, was a great game to watch.

Green tide is not much fun to play with though because every phase you have to move 101-300+ models. Move, Run, assault can take over an hour and a half just for that one turn. Big Mek, Weird boy and Pain boy are 3 HQs for this blob your talking about taking, not including the mandatory 1 Warboss. Your talking about almost 200points of HQ for your green tide before you even get into anything like Heavy support or fast attack.. Furthermore, the new KFF SUCKS! its a 6in Bubble that only works in the shooting phase. and even if by some miracle you managed to get a bunch of models into that little bubble and by another miracle were able to get sanctuary off on your weird boy its still only a 4++ and a 5+ FNP. not exactly OP necron lvl. Furthermore if you multi assault, even from the green tide, its a disorganized assault and you lose the +1 attack and +1 strength, so your hitting at S3 and theres still a good chance you only get a handful of boyz into CC because unless your opponent is stupid he isn't move closer to the tide, he is opening up the distance to keep popping shots at it.

A Squiggoth with Tank bustas and a SAG killed a WK in one turn? then that Eldar player didn't know how to play. Squiggoths are slow and Tankbustas have a rng of 24. So He walked into the shooting gallery....and even then the ork player still rolled stupid good against the WK. (10 Tankbustas = 3.3 hits which equals about 1-2 wounds, unless he gets an invul or cover and failed his FNP) Unless your saying the Big Mek with the SAG rolled Box cars and sucked the WK into a vortex, and if that was the case. GG its a 1 in 12 chance.

I agree, Green Tide is.... boring. My Orks havent left the shelf for all of 7th because my KFF has terrible range, my Warboss doesnt have a melee Invuln, Trukks are useless, and while my Boyz havent gotten worse (except for Mob Rule, screw that change) everyone elses base Infantry got better.

Oh and i used to run "ard boyz, they are useless now because everyone is in the mentality of "if it aint AP 4 its crap" and its true. and dont tell me it isnt. I recently switched to Ad Mech and they will wreck Orks. The Vanguard will throw out so many wounds a green tide would crumble in a turn or two and the Rangers will just sit on the other side of the board and snipe your .

And then theres Wraithknights. Ya Screw those things.

Also when your talking about "OMGWTFBBQ OP" armies remember that Necrons lost a ton of stuff too, all they really got out of the new book is durability (alot of it to be sure) but they lost most of what made them unique, no more Lichguard bouncing bullets, Reanimation is just FnP v2.0, they have no good LoW (dont tell me that Tesseract is, its only good as a Suicide Bomber) The main culprits in being crazy powerful are mostly the Eldar. Stupid cheap Wraithknight.

Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

Probably another Marine player deigning to look upon us non Space Marine peasants.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

Probably another Marine player deigning to look upon us non Space Marine peasants.

lol exalted.

So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

This is my top complaint about 40k, frankly. It amazes me how GW changes course mid-cycle.

On the other hand, if I give GW the benefit of the doubt... 6e really had some issues, which 7e largely fixed. The 7e codex tone-down, an the surface, was a good idea, but really didn't motivate anyone to buy anything. It also didn't really fix the core issue of, "how do I play a list that mirrors fluff that doesn't suck?"

2015 actually fixes both of those. There are formations and superformations post 2015 are really interesting to play, they sell a ton of models for GW (what existing players have all the models to play a Company or Decurion or Warhost?), and are relatively balanced against each other. Even 1st, 10th company are cool. They are good for both scenario and random point-vs-point games.

So, really, my hope is just that GW follows through and finishes off the cycle, producing books for each faction including the ones already done in 2014 that don't have core-auxiliary-command structures that allow slotting in useful, fluffy formations.

 Talys wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

This is my top complaint about 40k, frankly. It amazes me how GW changes course mid-cycle.

On the other hand, if I give GW the benefit of the doubt... 6e really had some issues, which 7e largely fixed. The 7e codex tone-down, an the surface, was a good idea, but really didn't motivate anyone to buy anything. It also didn't really fix the core issue of, "how do I play a list that mirrors fluff that doesn't suck?"

2015 actually fixes both of those. There are formations and superformations post 2015 are really interesting to play, they sell a ton of models for GW (what existing players have all the models to play a Company or Decurion or Warhost?), and are relatively balanced against each other. Even 1st, 10th company are cool. They are good for both scenario and random point-vs-point games.

So, really, my hope is just that GW follows through and finishes off the cycle, producing books for each faction including the ones already done in 2014 that don't have core-auxiliary-command structures that allow slotting in useful, fluffy formations.

This, we have one formation in our base codex, and its a Hobby formation, virtually all of our useful stuff was in Waaagh!! Gazghkull, which thankfully i wanted anyway. You shouldnt need 2 books to actually be competitive, especially when its two books for the same army. I can forgive Ad Mech cuz that actually is to different stand alone armies, they're just better together.

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

What makes green tide not fun? The massive time it takes each phase to move the 101+ models. Unless your just shoving them forward and not spacing them at all or standing them back up, each phase of just moving the green tide takes about 5-10 minutes Movement, Running, assaulting, consolidating. Thats just picking them up and moving them. thats not counting any other parts of any phase. I played 2 games with Green tide and I won both of them and both games took over 4 hours to play, even though we were only playing 1,500 point games. one of them took closer to 6 if I recall correctly. Its just not fun. Furthermore if you play against an Eldar player with the Biker spam he can actually table that green tide in 2 turns.

I dont have Pentryants, Knights, lictors, centurions or any other armies so I can't tell you if they are fun or not. What I can tell you is that the green tide ISNT FUN TO PLAY.

 Talys wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

This is my top complaint about 40k, frankly. It amazes me how GW changes course mid-cycle.

Yeah, it's pretty astounding how they manage to do that so often

On the other hand, if I give GW the benefit of the doubt... 6e really had some issues, which 7e largely fixed. The 7e codex tone-down, an the surface, was a good idea, but really didn't motivate anyone to buy anything. It also didn't really fix the core issue of, "how do I play a list that mirrors fluff that doesn't suck?"

2015 actually fixes both of those. There are formations and superformations post 2015 are really interesting to play, they sell a ton of models for GW (what existing players have all the models to play a Company or Decurion or Warhost?), and are relatively balanced against each other. Even 1st, 10th company are cool. They are good for both scenario and random point-vs-point games.

So, really, my hope is just that GW follows through and finishes off the cycle, producing books for each faction including the ones already done in 2014 that don't have core-auxiliary-command structures that allow slotting in useful, fluffy formations.

The formations and multiple detachments and whatnot are not without their issues. I've pretty much stopped buying stuff and ceased attending events as a result, amongst a not insignificant number of other players I know. The explosion of power creep offered by formations & detachments, and the huge number of armies that are worse fluff violations than ever possible before through the allies & detachments rules, really kills the experience for a lot of people.

We'll see if GW continues its current codex design paradigm and see if things straighten out after that, but if GW's history is anything to go by, I don't think any of us can hold out breath on either count

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

What makes green tide not fun? The massive time it takes each phase to move the 101+ models. Unless your just shoving them forward and not spacing them at all or standing them back up, each phase of just moving the green tide takes about 5-10 minutes Movement, Running, assaulting, consolidating. Thats just picking them up and moving them. thats not counting any other parts of any phase. I played 2 games with Green tide and I won both of them and both games took over 4 hours to play, even though we were only playing 1,500 point games. one of them took closer to 6 if I recall correctly. Its just not fun. Furthermore if you play against an Eldar player with the Biker spam he can actually table that green tide in 2 turns.

I dont have Pentryants, Knights, lictors, centurions or any other armies so I can't tell you if they are fun or not. What I can tell you is that the green tide ISNT FUN TO PLAY.

Got to agree with this. The Green Tide can, occasionally, be a mildly unpleasant experience for both players. Actually, It's an absolute pain in the arse sometimes. I played it yesterday in a warm up game for a Tournament and in one turn I moved the whole tide 5 times! Move, then Run, then Charge, then pile-in, then consolidate. You can knock that down to 4 times if you combine run with move, if your OP agrees.
Then in his turn he assaulted with hit-and run bikers, which meant another pile in move, and then another consolidation. The whole tide moved 7 times over one turn FFS.
I have stated categorically that once this tournament is over, I am not playing the tide again, it's too limiting, and too boring if I'm honest.
Looks good though.

 r_squared wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

What makes green tide not fun? The massive time it takes each phase to move the 101+ models. Unless your just shoving them forward and not spacing them at all or standing them back up, each phase of just moving the green tide takes about 5-10 minutes Movement, Running, assaulting, consolidating. Thats just picking them up and moving them. thats not counting any other parts of any phase. I played 2 games with Green tide and I won both of them and both games took over 4 hours to play, even though we were only playing 1,500 point games. one of them took closer to 6 if I recall correctly. Its just not fun. Furthermore if you play against an Eldar player with the Biker spam he can actually table that green tide in 2 turns.

I dont have Pentryants, Knights, lictors, centurions or any other armies so I can't tell you if they are fun or not. What I can tell you is that the green tide ISNT FUN TO PLAY.

Got to agree with this. The Green Tide can, occasionally, be a mildly unpleasant experience for both players. Actually, It's an absolute pain in the arse sometimes. I played it yesterday in a warm up game for a Tournament and in one turn I moved the whole tide 5 times! Move, then Run, then Charge, then pile-in, then consolidate. You can knock that down to 4 times if you combine run with move, if your OP agrees.
Then in his turn he assaulted with hit-and run bikers, which meant another pile in move, and then another consolidation. The whole tide moved 7 times over one turn FFS.
I have stated categorically that once this tournament is over, I am not playing the tide again, it's too limiting, and too boring if I'm honest.
Looks good though.

No, that's not boring. That's incredibly fun compared with what I've seen.

There was a guy at my FLGS who played a CSM Plague Zombie list, would bring about 120 of them to each game. The Zombies would march up the board, get shot, then 6 Heldrakes would come on the board and annihilate.

Imagine green tide without the ability to run or shoot, plus a player who was into maximizing cover through placement of each and every model. It would regularly take him 20+ minutes to get through the movement phase, sometimes a lot longer.

I suspect GW will address the need for more anti-armor in the next Codex so green tide lists can be more effective. But I can't see them removing this style of play from the game, it's just too horrible to go away.

you do realize that the MINIMUM size of a green tide is 101 models. The Maximum is a bit over 301 depending on how many characters you plop in to the tide.

The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

I think the next Ork codex won't really help their core rules get any better but the Orkurion detachment will have some crazy special rules if you take large amounts of stuff. I could see the core portion containing the Boyz and Nobz units while the auxilliary detachments have a clan theme like Evil Sunz having lots of buggies and bikes. Each auxiliary detachment would give a themed bonus to the core detachment so that having the Evil Sunz auxiliary would give the core detachment free trukks. Blood Axes would have kommandos in the unit while giving the core units stealth. etc etc. Buy lots of models and your core boyz gets better. Still won't have solutions to a lot of the more powerful things in the game but at least you will be fielding a lot of models.

It wouldn't be an Orks release without something getting the unjustified nerf bat beat down so I predict they will nerf Lootas into the ground. Whoever wrote the rules finally got over their PTSD from Killa Kanz and realized that it was Lootas that was terrorizing their little plastic army men back in 6th edition and that they must be stopped to save the world from their current reign of terror.

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

I respect the green tide, but I have to go mix it up with them as I play BA. I can't possibly cause enough damage at range.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Rihgu wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Im not sure if your taking what im posting out of context on purpose or if you really don't understand what I was saying. My point was that they aren't really competitive when people understand it and know how to play against it, it was just new.

Rihgu wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Because even Guard shooting can counter a greentide?

Green Tide lists are not competitive and this comes from a Guard player whom hates the Assault phase with a passion.

We need a formation of formations that gives us a bonus allowing our troop selections to go into reserve instead of removed as casualties and redeploy using the reserve rules. Depending on the number of troops selected the enemy might have to do the meatgrinder waltz to the edge of the table to keep it cleared. It might give the Decurion type formation armies more then 3 turns to table Orks. Tbh the IG need something like that too to also represent the sheer numbers they brought but are still behind all the horde on the table.

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

We are talking about nearly unlimited number of different listw, yet everyone always brings up netlists. Maybe that is the problem here? With equal points some factions just cannot compete on equal footing, no matter what. That is a huge design flaw and it is never going to be fixed.

Some factions are competitive even if they field almost anything. With Necrons you practically need to work on crippling your list, they are that good. This combined with silly formation bonuses for no cost, for units you would field in any case just further imbalances the game.

It's not about lack of tactics or ability to play, the power difference between various factions is just so big.

If AoS is any indication, they gave up all pretense of even trying to balance the game. Their new mantra is "buy out stuff, make up what happens on the table with your friends over a beer. Or don't, we don't care either way".

The next work codex will tell you all the orks shooting hits on a five, and meelee on a four and all wounds on a four. Bring as many models as you like!

 Orock wrote:
If AoS is any indication, they gave up all pretense of even trying to balance the game. Their new mantra is "buy out stuff, make up what happens on the table with your friends over a beer. Or don't, we don't care either way".

The next work codex will tell you all the orks shooting hits on a five, and meelee on a four and all wounds on a four. Bring as many models as you like!

It's funny that people like you keep posting this nonsense despite the fact that there are no significant indications that GW has plans to revamp 40k to be similar to AoS.

FANTASY WAS NOT SELLING WORTH CRAP. END TIMES WAS THE HIGHEST SPIKE THEY HAD SEEN IN YEARS FOR THAT RANGE.

Its funny that people like you claim to be so clairvoyant that they feel confident enough to exclude any other alternative situation other than the perfect scenario they Invision in their head from the realm of possibility. Until such a time simething is proven one way or another we are entitled to our opinions, as stated on an opinion board.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Because even Guard shooting can counter a greentide?

Green Tide lists are not competitive and this comes from a Guard player whom hates the Assault phase with a passion.

Good thing assault sucks in 7th ed.

Here's my "How to Make Orks Scary in 7th Edition: 101" for anyone at Games Workshop who's reading. Let me reiterate: This is how you make Orks SCARY, as in you'd actually have a challenge on your hand beating this army. Keep in mind that Games Workshop relies on models for everything, so simply saying "Orks need more weapons" usually doesn't work unless you want to introduce a new model kit. So we largely have to work with what we have.

1) How to make Orks better at shooting? Shooting is the core of the 40k game. Orks need to be better at it to be scary.

- More Ork abilities to allow periodical re-rolls of shooting or re-rolls of 1's (Nob / Warboss abilities, Formation bonuses, Twin-Linked Weapons, etc)
- Increase volume of fire (Make Deffguns Heavy 3 instead of Heavy D3. Make Rokkits Assault 2. Make Big Shootas Assault 4
- Increase range on some weapons (Grotzooka increase to 24", Shootas increase to 24")
- Decrease point cost for Ork Weapon upgrades for Infantry. Paying 10 points for a missile launcher for a Space Marine with a 3+ save and a BS4 might be worth it. Paying that same 10 points for a missile launcher when an Ork is firing it at BS2, and easily killable at a 6+ save is not worth it. In Games Workshop's defense, this is something they started doing with the 7th Edition codex. Rokkit upgrades were made cheaper across the board.
- Remove "Gets Hot!" on certain Ork weapons so that they are actually usable by Orks. Kustom Mega Blastas are almost guaranteed to kill the firer, unlike Space Marine Plasma Guns which still get a save vs. the effect.
- Fix certain weapons.
a) KillKannon is still over-priced and being Ordinance hurts it more than helps.
b) The Burna-Bomma missiles are overpriced and useless. Make them S6 AP3 Ignores Cover to make them finally scary and maybe worth the 10 points for a single missile shot.
c) Make the Zzapp Gun hit automatically again, with S 2D6 AP1
- Give the Orks some S9, S10, or D weapons on new models. Orks having nothing to compete against Wraithknights or Imperial Knights unless you count the Stompa, which could be reduced in price by about 400 points (seriously it's that overpriced) compared to its peers in order to be competitive.
- Give Orks some additional AP3 or AP2 weapons. Games Workshop went a long way towards fixing this with the Kustom Mega Kannon, but we need more. Other than spamming Tankbustas or relying on Power Klaws we have no reliable low AP weapons to fight Monstrous Creatures or Gargantuan Creatures.

2) How to make Orks more survivable? Orks are fairly fragile. We have numbers on our side (usually) but it makes most of our elite troops too fragile and not viable.

- Give all Orks 5+ Armor or a 6+ FNP. This is especially needed for units like Stormboys, Kommandos who rely on getting into Assault, but also can't rely on a Transport or a Warboss / Big Mek to help them out.
- Allow Orks some abilities or Wargear to re-roll saving throws. For example, maybe the Kustom Force Field grants a 5++, but in addition also allows failed Cover Saves to be re-rolled.
- Give Warbikes their Smokecloud ability back.
- Give back the Cybork Body 5++
- Allow Painboys to be taken more liberally. Give Painboys an ability to allow Orks with a Cybork save to reroll failed saves.
- Give the Battlewagon the "Invincible Behemoth" special rule. Also reduce the point cost. Allow it to be taken as a dedicated Transport for Boys.
- Give Killa Kans 3 HP, and increase Deff Dreads to 4.
- Make a Mork/Gorkanaut a Super Heavy and give it 8 HP.
- Make the Kustom Force Field grant its ability to UNITS within 6", not simply Models.
- Give Trukks a 5++ Invulnerable Save in place of Ramshackle Vehicle.

3) How to make Orks better at Assault?

The 'Ere We Go rule went a long way towards helping Orks GET to Assault, and I love it. That being said they still could use help. As an Assault-Based army Orks are definitely not the king of Assault.

- Give Orks a mechanic to either have a chance at winning challenges, or ignoring them. Orks rely too heavily on the Nob with the Power Klaw, and this weakness is easily exploited by the challenge mechanic in the rules. You could, for example, give Ork Nobz the ability to pass a Leadership check to ignore an issued challenge. The alternative is giving Orks the tools they need to survive a challenge, either through something like a 4++ (Supa Cybork) save, or FNP.
- Bring back the Ork Choppa Rule. (-1 to armor saves).
- Give Orks some special weapons they can use at Initiative higher than 1 or 2. Warbosses actually do have I4, but they never get to use it! (This option would probably not be viable due to lack of weapons in all the Ork infantry kits. You could possibly introduce it with a new Warboss or Nob kit but that's unlikely)
- Alter the Green Mob table such that a 2-3 succeeds with 10 models in the group, a 4-5 succeeds with a character in the group, and 6 always succeeds with no casualties.
- Any Ork unit with over 10 models automatically passes Fear checks without having to roll (note this doesn't give them the Fearless rule).

4) Costs. Like any army, Orks have issues with overcosted units. In order of probably most overcosted down to those just needing a minor adjustment:

Battlewagon
Gork/Morkanaut (unless you make it a SuperHeavy)
Nobz / Biker Nobz
Killa Kans / Deff Dreads
Dakkajet / Blitzabomma / Burnabomma
Stormboys
Burnaboys
Kommandos



You could make ALL these changes to Orks, and they'd be more fearsome than before. Space Marines could have a tough time fighting them, they might stand a chance against Tau gunlines, and they'd be able to compete with Necrons and Eldar (assuming you give them some suitably good formation bonuses).

The fact that this list is SO long I think illustrates just how much Orks need a leg up. I really love Orks but they need significant help.

Hopefully in a positive way that will put them at a level where they can compete with the other Codex, Eldar crazy pants aside.

Murrdox, sounds good but it's never going to happen. Orks are just the faction that gets no love from GW. Hopefully the next codex will be written by someone who understands orks and what they need unlike the last one.

Murrdox wrote:
Here's my "How to Make Orks Scary in 7th Edition: 101" for anyone at Games Workshop who's reading. Let me reiterate: This is how you make Orks SCARY, as in you'd actually have a challenge on your hand beating this army. Keep in mind that Games Workshop relies on models for everything, so simply saying "Orks need more weapons" usually doesn't work unless you want to introduce a new model kit. So we largely have to work with what we have.

1) How to make Orks better at shooting? Shooting is the core of the 40k game. Orks need to be better at it to be scary.

- More Ork abilities to allow periodical re-rolls of shooting or re-rolls of 1's (Nob / Warboss abilities, Formation bonuses, Twin-Linked Weapons, etc)
- Increase volume of fire (Make Deffguns Heavy 3 instead of Heavy D3. Make Rokkits Assault 2. Make Big Shootas Assault 4
- Increase range on some weapons (Grotzooka increase to 24", Shootas increase to 24")
- Decrease point cost for Ork Weapon upgrades for Infantry. Paying 10 points for a missile launcher for a Space Marine with a 3+ save and a BS4 might be worth it. Paying that same 10 points for a missile launcher when an Ork is firing it at BS2, and easily killable at a 6+ save is not worth it. In Games Workshop's defense, this is something they started doing with the 7th Edition codex. Rokkit upgrades were made cheaper across the board.
- Remove "Gets Hot!" on certain Ork weapons so that they are actually usable by Orks. Kustom Mega Blastas are almost guaranteed to kill the firer, unlike Space Marine Plasma Guns which still get a save vs. the effect.
- Fix certain weapons.
a) KillKannon is still over-priced and being Ordinance hurts it more than helps.
b) The Burna-Bomma missiles are overpriced and useless. Make them S6 AP3 Ignores Cover to make them finally scary and maybe worth the 10 points for a single missile shot.
c) Make the Zzapp Gun hit automatically again, with S 2D6 AP1
- Give the Orks some S9, S10, or D weapons on new models. Orks having nothing to compete against Wraithknights or Imperial Knights unless you count the Stompa, which could be reduced in price by about 400 points (seriously it's that overpriced) compared to its peers in order to be competitive.
- Give Orks some additional AP3 or AP2 weapons. Games Workshop went a long way towards fixing this with the Kustom Mega Kannon, but we need more. Other than spamming Tankbustas or relying on Power Klaws we have no reliable low AP weapons to fight Monstrous Creatures or Gargantuan Creatures.

2) How to make Orks more survivable? Orks are fairly fragile. We have numbers on our side (usually) but it makes most of our elite troops too fragile and not viable.

- Give all Orks 5+ Armor or a 6+ FNP. This is especially needed for units like Stormboys, Kommandos who rely on getting into Assault, but also can't rely on a Transport or a Warboss / Big Mek to help them out.
- Allow Orks some abilities or Wargear to re-roll saving throws. For example, maybe the Kustom Force Field grants a 5++, but in addition also allows failed Cover Saves to be re-rolled.
- Give Warbikes their Smokecloud ability back.
- Give back the Cybork Body 5++
- Allow Painboys to be taken more liberally. Give Painboys an ability to allow Orks with a Cybork save to reroll failed saves.
- Give the Battlewagon the "Invincible Behemoth" special rule. Also reduce the point cost. Allow it to be taken as a dedicated Transport for Boys.
- Give Killa Kans 3 HP, and increase Deff Dreads to 4.
- Make a Mork/Gorkanaut a Super Heavy and give it 8 HP.
- Make the Kustom Force Field grant its ability to UNITS within 6", not simply Models.
- Give Trukks a 5++ Invulnerable Save in place of Ramshackle Vehicle.

3) How to make Orks better at Assault?

The 'Ere We Go rule went a long way towards helping Orks GET to Assault, and I love it. That being said they still could use help. As an Assault-Based army Orks are definitely not the king of Assault.

- Give Orks a mechanic to either have a chance at winning challenges, or ignoring them. Orks rely too heavily on the Nob with the Power Klaw, and this weakness is easily exploited by the challenge mechanic in the rules. You could, for example, give Ork Nobz the ability to pass a Leadership check to ignore an issued challenge. The alternative is giving Orks the tools they need to survive a challenge, either through something like a 4++ (Supa Cybork) save, or FNP.
- Bring back the Ork Choppa Rule. (-1 to armor saves).
- Give Orks some special weapons they can use at Initiative higher than 1 or 2. Warbosses actually do have I4, but they never get to use it! (This option would probably not be viable due to lack of weapons in all the Ork infantry kits. You could possibly introduce it with a new Warboss or Nob kit but that's unlikely)
- Alter the Green Mob table such that a 2-3 succeeds with 10 models in the group, a 4-5 succeeds with a character in the group, and 6 always succeeds with no casualties.
- Any Ork unit with over 10 models automatically passes Fear checks without having to roll (note this doesn't give them the Fearless rule).

4) Costs. Like any army, Orks have issues with overcosted units. In order of probably most overcosted down to those just needing a minor adjustment:

Battlewagon
Gork/Morkanaut (unless you make it a SuperHeavy)
Nobz / Biker Nobz
Killa Kans / Deff Dreads
Dakkajet / Blitzabomma / Burnabomma
Stormboys
Burnaboys
Kommandos



You could make ALL these changes to Orks, and they'd be more fearsome than before. Space Marines could have a tough time fighting them, they might stand a chance against Tau gunlines, and they'd be able to compete with Necrons and Eldar (assuming you give them some suitably good formation bonuses).

The fact that this list is SO long I think illustrates just how much Orks need a leg up. I really love Orks but they need significant help.

Exalted!

You mirror many of my own thoughts about making the ladz better

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

orks really aren't even that bad now, they aren't a 100% win 24/7 but by god with enough boyz on the field they do pretty well.

Orks should not auto pass fear checks do you want to make that rule even more useless

 ProwlerPC wrote:
We need a formation of formations that gives us a bonus allowing our troop selections to go into reserve instead of removed as casualties and redeploy using the reserve rules. Depending on the number of troops selected the enemy might have to do the meatgrinder waltz to the edge of the table to keep it cleared. It might give the Decurion type formation armies more then 3 turns to table Orks. Tbh the IG need something like that too to also represent the sheer numbers they brought but are still behind all the horde on the table.

So 4th ed Tyranid Without Number? Im all for that, call that one Green Tide

The 8th edition codex will give us some new formations that allow us to complete with Decurion, et. al.

Then the 8th edition Necron codex will drop, giving all units 3+ invul, 3+ RP and make wraiths cheaper.

I dont think theyll get nerfed. Some wierd sideways power shifts, and small buffs for the newer kits they want to sell. Over all i think their raw power will come up only a little. Keeping them where they were when their previous codex was new.

I think there ok now. They give my BAs fits . Outside of whitescars bike hordes with multiple TFCs and an Iknight, I dont see orks being overly troubled by marines. Eldar & 'crons in any form are a strugle. And not to be rude, but if you dont like moving around a lot of models why did you pick THEE horde army?

(notable exception to this is the gladius strike force)

Nothing to do other than make some of the random units viable in game, however, really the fact is we all have units that are terrible...

I am sorry, but if you can not win with orcs compared to marines in the current codex editions that both have then you should really ask for some help other than complaining... Orcs are hands down one of the strongest armies in the game and have been for a VERY long time.



2 combined arms detachments

1st Mad Doc
War boss Mega armour lucky stick

spam boys....

2nd
Warboss Bike thinkin cap
Pain Boy Bike

Spam bikes

Thyhadras wrote:
Nothing to do other than make some of the random units viable in game, however, really the fact is we all have units that are terrible...

I am sorry, but if you can not win with orcs compared to marines in the current codex editions that both have then you should really ask for some help other than complaining... Orcs are hands down one of the strongest armies in the game and have been for a VERY long time.

I am sorry if you suck so bad that you can not win with what may be the best army in the format....

2 combined arms detachments

1st Mad Doc
War boss Mega armour lucky stick

spam boys....

2nd
Warboss Bike thinkin cap
Pain Boy Bike

Spam bikes


if you can not build around that and win then you need to find a new army or here is an idea.... Practice and figure out how to play rather than just complain




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... Prowler PC.... YOU HAVE THE BEST TROOP CHOICE FOR THE POINTS IN THE GAME!!!!

Seriously math hammer it out and a shoota boy is the best troop in the game... and honestly shoota boy squads are one of the better squads in the game,,,

well that is a very constructive post.

Thyhadras wrote:
Orcs are hands down one of the strongest armies in the game and have been for a VERY long time.

'K.

Do you disagree Jim? And how was my post not constructive, I have been listening to people complain about orcs for a long time, yet some of the toughest games I have ever seen have been with orcs...


And here we can make it more constructive, to make changes then the orcs should see a points drop in the elites units, and maybe even move lootas to heavy support as there is very little for ehavy slots in the codex that is worth anything. Also, I would like to see them give back invulnerable saves to mega nobs as that is pretty crappy that they can not get it (or add a toughness to them instead).

Thyhadras wrote:
Do you disagree Jim? And how was my post not constructive, I have been listening to people complain about orcs for a long time, yet some of the toughest games I have ever seen have been with orcs...


And here we can make it more constructive, to make changes then the orcs should see a points drop in the elites units, and maybe even move lootas to heavy support as there is very little for ehavy slots in the codex that is worth anything. Also, I would like to see them give back invulnerable saves to mega nobs as that is pretty crappy that they can not get it (or add a toughness to them instead).

yeah dude, you don't know Orks at all.

1: ITS ORK not FETHING ORC
2: Orks have been considered mid to low tier since this game was invented. your literally the only person I Know who considers them top tier.
3: Lootas are already in the heavy slot and the heavy slot is the most over populated slot we have. Lootas, Mek Gunz, Killa Kanz, Dreadz, Morkanaught, Gorkanaught, Battle Wagonz and Flash Gitz

Now granted out of all those heavy slots, Lootas, Mek Gunz and Battle Wagonz are the good stuff, Kanz and dreads are meh and Mork/Gork and Flash gitz suck.

4: the New Space Marine Codex is considered Top tier and on a parallel with Necrons/Eldar.

5: your basing your entire argument on a single game against an Ork Player, in a game based on statistical chance.
6: Saying "Learn to Play" is considered rude on this forum.

^No, boys and characters are the good stuff

Sorry for being rude then... let me rephrase... I have been playing for almost 20 years, and since the dawn of this game I have heard nothing but how orcs are terrible. However, I have played against them in Ard' boys when they had the nob biker squad that was absolutely brutal. Then I have played against them numerous time since.

If you want to know the biggest problem with OrKs it is simply that you can not build a fun to play list that is still competitive (hundreds of games of personal experience)

Building a competitive list is doable and we just had a green tide build hammer into a decurion formation and beat it pretty handily (the decurion build was the popular net list). However, the tide army was basically exactly what I mentioned earlier with the bike army using gretchen as filler that sat back and held objectives.

So while I say learn to play it is not meant to be rude or mean spirited, it is simply that there are answers in every codex...

Sorry by the way for some reason I was thinking that lootas were elite, which means they are fine in heavy, because honesty they may be the only heavy option that is even remotely worth taking because of the points cost of the battle wagon and the fact that the rest of the walkers are terrible (there is some chance that under certain circumstances Def Dreads could pull their weight, but so many armies run heavy anti mech that they are usually useless.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... 3rd edition Orks owned the game with the battle wagon and meganobs... 4th edition saw the push for rocket boys owning the table... and as we have gotten to now shoota boys win you games (furthermore, the lucky stick may be the best piece of wargear in the game).

So yes, are their problems with the codex? Sure, but the biggest problem I think comes from the idea of building a list you will think is fun and then planning on winning. If you want to build a list to win then build a list that will win to everything (with a very close game between gladius and decurion) or build a fun list that will see you enjoying the game with a chance to win but not going in thinking you are going to win no matter what.

I'm sorry guys, but I'm onboard with Thy-

Orks have been one of the most powerful armies since 3rd edition: I've been playing since 2nd.

It seems that people always make subpar lists, take them to tournaments, and then complain about how something like the decurion necron lists walk over them. "BUT I HAD 5 Killa kanz and units of 12 boys in trukksprotected by a KFF Mek".... sorry, you built a poor list and got whooped.

I'd be willing to put my current 1500pt ork list up against anything out there right now and go in confident that I have a fighting chance.

Same as he posted above, not trying to sound rude, but learn the strengths of the codex and use them on the table. There is no reason Orks aren't near the top tier right now.

Nob bikers aren't a thing in the new codex/7th edition because they are WAY to over priced. Also Mek Gunz are about the best option we have now.

Green tide is the absolute most boring army to play as.

Yes their are answers to most codex's but the ork codex is so under powered we have very few answers to anything.

I have to disagree.

For example, I cant think of a single Marine build that would give orks any trouble currently (and I play both). Unless the ork list builder is stuck in the old ways of thought by only using 1 CAD.

And Nob bikers are dead, but normal bikers are amazing.




I guess I just fail to see how people complain when we get some of the best point for point unit destroying characters (Warboss), the best point for point troop choice in the game (shoota boy), and cheap tricks like FNP everywhere, Lukky Stikk Meganob, finkin cap, and MSU opportunity. I very rarely loose a game with Orks in 7th.

Ghaz, fact is bikers are almost as good bro, and the warboss on bike is a machine that is possibly the most deadly thing in the game short of gargantuan creatures...

Also, I agree green tide is boring to play against... but it is the answer... which the tide walks over every thing in the marine book but the gladius formation, and I would imagine it would act the same for running over crons other than the decurion... so if the two top tier books according to people have one list that makes them top tier then how do orcs not fall into the top tier with their one list?

Crappiest part of you whole codex is 50 bucks for a 18-35 point model...

Furthermore, can you expound on what makes the top tier armies so beast that they shut down orcs to make them a terrible army?

Btothefnrock wrote:
I have to disagree.

For example, I cant think of a single Marine build that would give orks any trouble currently (and I play both). Unless the ork list builder is stuck in the old ways of thought by only using 1 CAD.

And Nob bikers are dead, but normal bikers are amazing.

I can think of a couple off the top of my head and I don't play Space Marines, also unless your fielding 1 or 2 of the good lists out their for orks you have Zero chance against Eldar/Necrons/SM played by someone who is competent.

example? Because I literally cant think of anything that scares me.

And Thy, Tide is really good if setup right, but not the best list IMHO- it just happens to be the one that players in major tournaments are bringing because its the "perceived" best list.

In the current dex, the power units we have are Warboss' (bike/PK and MA/DLS), Painboys, Mad Doc, Shoota Boys, Warbikers, MANz Missiles in Trukk. Other very good units are Lootas, Mek Guns, Meks, Single Koptas. Everything else (unless you are looking at supplements/other formations) are simply not as competitive in all honesty.

Yes, Green Tide is also incredibly hard to beat in the current missions, as it also has great board control.

As Ghaz posted earlier, I really do wish walker lists were viable again, that was a fun era. Also Speed Freaks, but 12 boys in trukks are simply a complete waste of points currently, as many units in the dex are. But this is the same with every codex- there are the great competitive units, the meh filler stuff, and the "this is in here for fun games only" level stuff...

Trust me, when the most recent codex came out and I saw the lack of invul saves, the upping of shoota points, loss of fearless, etc, I was scared that Orks were going to be low tier, but not after trying new list ideas.

Ghaz, if the three mentioned lists do not bring their best to the table then I do not see where you are getting the information that those three codex's are going to walk you...

And what you said about bringing the good lists is the same problem that every codex is going to have...

I think they'll make bikes even better. GW started to LOVE bikes since 6-th for some reason. Sometimes i feel they've employed this guy to fix stuff in new dexes.

And he always goes like: "All's fine but i feel that bikes need a buff".

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

Probably another Marine player deigning to look upon us non Space Marine peasants.

lol exalted.

I play tau.
A well formulated and intelligently played ork list can ruin my day.

I have not and will never play orks, they are a boring aesthetic to me, i do however TO numerous events and work at a LGS so i see a very large number of games played and also play a very large number. Luckily i have a varied meta when it comes to armies and player types.

i would also like to know how green tide is boring when its just about as basic ork fluffy you can get, one giant horde descending an enemy, basically unstoppable if kitted correctly.

though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

die toten hosen wrote:

though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

We resumed reading as soon as you've said you're tau second time. [tau][/tau]

MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

I run several different lists depending on what im doing that day but very rarely do I field anything less then 10 Warbikers.

The most success I have had is when I run Lootaz inside of Battle Wagons. Then I run my bikes up the flank as a distract and try to out dakka the dakka lists. That or I Run the green tide against an unsuspecting opponent who didn't bring enough Dakka to wipe it out in 2 turns.

die toten hosen wrote:
though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

Exalted. haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

False.

Are you putting them directly at the front edge of the deplyment, in the open, and saying "SHOOT ME!" and expecting them to make it? Even so, worse case, the trukk blows up in your DZ and they are forced to walk. They still take a decent amount of firepower to move out of cover by shooting.

Think about this logically for a second. For a very low cost, you get a 3 man unit that has the capability of getting up close to your opponents line T1 if they aren't dealt with T1, and will wipe most units (aka not combat heavy, not deathstar) or cause massive casualties if they reach combat. They are a Distraction Carnifex unit. Multiply that by taking two units of them. Then add other things like bikes which are also able to close in and cause massive damage if not dealt with on T1. Manz units win lots of games, either by actually killing lots of stuff, or by being a cheap distraction.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

They shoot more, are still crazy good at surviving with painboy and Warboss added (same as Nobs used to have though), and cover more of the table for the same points. No, they aren't the CC beasts they once were, but they are much better at shooting which is a great benefit this edition, and still pack a good punch to finish units off afterward. Strong unit, just a different role and not a Deathstar. We dont have ANY deathstar units anymore.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

Exactly, he is a good CC unit for the points, but needs a good delivery method to be effective now. (like bike or MA+DLS+unit of boys or Lootas)



Ork Dakka lists are pretty fun to play, but aren't all that great by themselves. Like the lootas in a wagon idea- sounds kind of good on paper, but its a huge points sink. Aegis line+Lootas is much better and cheaper than the wagon. Only unit that should go in a BW IMHO is... well, none stand out because the BW isn't really worth taking in the current Shooty meta- its going to be destroyed T1 if its a threat, and its too much liability after you add the cost of the upgrades+ the unit that will be stranded when it blows. (This is why I like trukks since they are dirt cheap, or better yet the options that come with using supplements that have better than AV10 and are still cheap.)

This codex requires a mix of Dakka + solid CC cleanup + survivability + board control to work well. We don't have a singe amazing CC unit, we don't have a single amazing Dakka unit; but we have super cheap tarpits, massed cheap dakka, massed cheap PK's, cheap units to control objectives, etc... which makes for a very solid army if chosen correctly.

it just kind of sucks that most of the units many of us like such as kanz, flashgits, tanksbustas, Battlewagons, KFF, etc.. aren't worth taking anymore. Orks changed playstyle very drastically over the last edition and Codex, and are much harder to play than the good old days of "reach CC and I win" tactics...

Thyhadras wrote:

I am sorry if you suck so bad that you can not win with what may be the best army in the format....


if you can not build around that and win then you need to find a new army or here is an idea.... Practice and figure out how to play rather than just complain

,

Comments like this add nothing to any discussion and really do not help one make one's point.

Please endeavour to refrain from posting in such a style in the future.

Thank you.

Personally, I think it's rather rich to see someone who's at least got a 7th edition codex + an added supplement doing nothing but whining when some of us lowly plebs are still being forced to make a go of it with early 6th edition codices...
Orks have long been competitive throughout 40k's past, just not in an "Easy Mode" style like Eldar or Loyalist Marines have typically gotten.

You know who's typically gotten the real shaft though? Chaos Marines. 3.5 got them a lifetime ban on ever receiving nice toys again.

Btothefnrock wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

Exalted. haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

False.

Are you putting them directly at the front edge of the deplyment, in the open, and saying "SHOOT ME!" and expecting them to make it? Even so, worse case, the trukk blows up in your DZ and they are forced to walk. They still take a decent amount of firepower to move out of cover by shooting.

Think about this logically for a second. For a very low cost, you get a 3 man unit that has the capability of getting up close to your opponents line T1 if they aren't dealt with T1, and will wipe most units (aka not combat heavy, not deathstar) or cause massive casualties if they reach combat. They are a Distraction Carnifex unit. Multiply that by taking two units of them. Then add other things like bikes which are also able to close in and cause massive damage if not dealt with on T1. Manz units win lots of games, either by actually killing lots of stuff, or by being a cheap distraction.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

They shoot more, are still crazy good at surviving with painboy and Warboss added (same as Nobs used to have though), and cover more of the table for the same points. No, they aren't the CC beasts they once were, but they are much better at shooting which is a great benefit this edition, and still pack a good punch to finish units off afterward. Strong unit, just a different role and not a Deathstar. We dont have ANY deathstar units anymore.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

Exactly, he is a good CC unit for the points, but needs a good delivery method to be effective now. (like bike or MA+DLS+unit of boys or Lootas)



Ork Dakka lists are pretty fun to play, but aren't all that great by themselves. Like the lootas in a wagon idea- sounds kind of good on paper, but its a huge points sink. Aegis line+Lootas is much better and cheaper than the wagon. Only unit that should go in a BW IMHO is... well, none stand out because the BW isn't really worth taking in the current Shooty meta- its going to be destroyed T1 if its a threat, and its too much liability after you add the cost of the upgrades+ the unit that will be stranded when it blows. (This is why I like trukks since they are dirt cheap, or better yet the options that come with using supplements that have better than AV10 and are still cheap.)

This codex requires a mix of Dakka + solid CC cleanup + survivability + board control to work well. We don't have a singe amazing CC unit, we don't have a single amazing Dakka unit; but we have super cheap tarpits, massed cheap dakka, massed cheap PK's, cheap units to control objectives, etc... which makes for a very solid army if chosen correctly.

it just kind of sucks that most of the units many of us like such as kanz, flashgits, tanksbustas, Battlewagons, KFF, etc.. aren't worth taking anymore. Orks changed playstyle very drastically over the last edition and Codex, and are much harder to play than the good old days of "reach CC and I win" tactics...

The problem with kanz lies with walkers being generally walking first blood, add to it that if your CC walker gets immobilized then your 100 plus points now sits there useless.

Each codex has its bum units. Units that while good in their own right, just cant compete well. I would like to have certain aspects of the codex i play regularly to be more appealing and competative, several players who frequent the LGS i work for say similar things.

Dismissing a legitimate set of army builds because you somehow find a horde of orks unfluffy and boring is a BS excuse and based on the past history of ork threads it keeps seeming more and more like you just want to complain and not take any actual advise on the matter.

Thyhadras wrote:
Do you disagree Jim? And how was my post not constructive, I have been listening to people complain about orcs for a long time, yet some of the toughest games I have ever seen have been with orcs...


And here we can make it more constructive, to make changes then the orcs should see a points drop in the elites units, and maybe even move lootas to heavy support as there is very little for ehavy slots in the codex that is worth anything. Also, I would like to see them give back invulnerable saves to mega nobs as that is pretty crappy that they can not get it (or add a toughness to them instead).

To be fair, Orks are decent against fluffy lists, because most any list with an Ork army is fluffy and they compete well against other armies that lack shooting.

As soon as the guns come out in force, the Orks just evaporate before they get anywhere. If they charge, they might wipe out a few units on the front lines, but then they are wide open for the next turn's shooting and get tabled. If they try a mirror gunline, they don't have the range/rate of fire/slots to match.

Btothefnrock wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

False.

Are you putting them directly at the front edge of the deplyment, in the open, and saying "SHOOT ME!" and expecting them to make it? Even so, worse case, the trukk blows up in your DZ and they are forced to walk. They still take a decent amount of firepower to move out of cover by shooting.

Think about this logically for a second. For a very low cost, you get a 3 man unit that has the capability of getting up close to your opponents line T1 if they aren't dealt with T1, and will wipe most units (aka not combat heavy, not deathstar) or cause massive casualties if they reach combat. They are a Distraction Carnifex unit. Multiply that by taking two units of them. Then add other things like bikes which are also able to close in and cause massive damage if not dealt with on T1. Manz units win lots of games, either by actually killing lots of stuff, or by being a cheap distraction.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

They shoot more, are still crazy good at surviving with painboy and Warboss added (same as Nobs used to have though), and cover more of the table for the same points. No, they aren't the CC beasts they once were, but they are much better at shooting which is a great benefit this edition, and still pack a good punch to finish units off afterward. Strong unit, just a different role and not a Deathstar. We dont have ANY deathstar units anymore.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

Exactly, he is a good CC unit for the points, but needs a good delivery method to be effective now. (like bike or MA+DLS+unit of boys or Lootas)



Ork Dakka lists are pretty fun to play, but aren't all that great by themselves. Like the lootas in a wagon idea- sounds kind of good on paper, but its a huge points sink. Aegis line+Lootas is much better and cheaper than the wagon. Only unit that should go in a BW IMHO is... well, none stand out because the BW isn't really worth taking in the current Shooty meta- its going to be destroyed T1 if its a threat, and its too much liability after you add the cost of the upgrades+ the unit that will be stranded when it blows. (This is why I like trukks since they are dirt cheap, or better yet the options that come with using supplements that have better than AV10 and are still cheap.)

This codex requires a mix of Dakka + solid CC cleanup + survivability + board control to work well. We don't have a singe amazing CC unit, we don't have a single amazing Dakka unit; but we have super cheap tarpits, massed cheap dakka, massed cheap PK's, cheap units to control objectives, etc... which makes for a very solid army if chosen correctly.

it just kind of sucks that most of the units many of us like such as kanz, flashgits, tanksbustas, Battlewagons, KFF, etc.. aren't worth taking anymore. Orks changed playstyle very drastically over the last edition and Codex, and are much harder to play than the good old days of "reach CC and I win" tactics...

Exalted. Man, everything you said was true.

Meganobz can easily earn their points back and more. Even if your opponent takes them out and the Trukk they were in, all those mobs of Boyz behind them just avoided all that deadly fire. I sometimes pair Mad Dok with them to turn them into an absolutely nasty CC squad. Add Killsaws and Kombi-Skorchas for additional deadliness. Bit costly and uses an HQ slot, but it's fun to see.

Warbikers, especially Nob Bikers, can be a brutal beatstick if used correctly. Speed up to important enemy unit, pepper them with Dakkaguns, and cripple what's left in assault. You don't even need all PKs; with HoW and Big Choppas you'll cause so many wounds that they can't possibly save all of them. Add Painboy to make them more durable and PK Warboss to instagib and clean up anyone who might still be a alive.

And I agree wholeheartedly that, sadly, Orks are nowhere near as simple as they used to be. Boyz will still be the bread and butter of your army, but it's really difficult to find a playstyle that fits you. Still a positive though, as there's dozens of ways you can form your army, unlike Tyranids or Tau.

My personal favorite strategy is whenever I play the Great Waaagh! detachment, I take a Big Mek with Mega Armor, KFF and Supa-Cybork, and plop him in a mob of 10 Lootas and a regular Mek. With Slow and Purposeful conferring to the Lootas, I can move, shoot, AND assault. And with the Big Mek having a 2+ armor, 5++ against shooting, Feel No Pian, and Eternal Warrior, that git ain't dying anytime soon. Plus the KFF and SaP gives the Lootas more durability and mobility.

Let's look at the Warbiker - 18 points.

S3, T5, BS2, with a 4+ Save. Armed with a twin-linked Dakkagun S5 AP5 Assault 3. Not bad.

Then let's look at a Space Marine Bike - 21 points. Let's look at what it gains / loses over a Warbiker.

S4, BS4, I4, Ld8, with a 3+ Save. Already we're stronger, faster, better morale, twice as good at shooting, and save 16% more wounds for only 3 more points? That's a pretty good deal!

Now look at the weapons:

Twin Linked Dakkagun vs. two twin-linked Bolt-Guns. The Bolt Guns get to rapid fire within 12", they're twin-linked, and they're firing at BS4 instead of BS2. About the only thing the Dakkagun has going for it is that it's S5 instead of 4. I would give the advantage, once again, to the Space Marine. Over time, the Space Marine is going to hit more often and do more wounds shooting than the Dakkagun will, unless you're shooting at targets where the Dakkagun's S5 really matters.

Then throw in other Space Marine bonuses like ATSKNF, and the fact that they can put heavy weapons like Grav Guns on their bikes.

Don't get me wrong... Warbikers definitely ARE one of the stronger Ork units in the codex right now. That's why you see people using Forgeworld Characters to bring them as Troops to tournament games.

But even then... our Warbiker is easily outshined by Space Marines. Would you rather pay 18 points for an Ork Warbiker, or would you rather pay 21 points for a Space Marine bike? If those two units were in the same codex it would be no contest, you'd pick the Space Marine bike. If you could pay 3 points to upgrade the Warbiker's armor to 3+, that ALONE would be worth the point difference.

In a nutshell, that's the position Orks are in right now. (And I'm not saying we're the only army in this situation, I feel for Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard and Chaos Marines too.)

Believe you me, I'd love to play in some of these clubs that are mentioned in this thread where Orks are a top tier codex. I'd love for my Orks to actually cause some fear in my opponent. But all my games with the 7th Edition Codex feel like trying to ice-skate uphill. I can sometimes squeek out a win, but it's not often. My opponents don't even have to TRY very hard to beat an Ork army. On the other hand, I have to use every trick at my disposal to come up with the most brutal army list imaginable with the tools that I have... and I still will probably lose. Now granted, I'm not playing Green Tide and I'm not using Forgeworld Biker characters... but a good codex should give you more options than that to be qualified as a "good codex".

Murrdox, what about the fact that if you compare them to each other, the marine now wounds on 5+ versus 4+ on the ork. I would also like to point out that you have two attacks base versus our one. The ATSKNF is most definitely a difference, but I think that they are actually quite equal to each other.

So what do you run that makes your club members run over you so easily? Do you have other models to throw in that could have a different effect... one thing I have noticed since forums for 40k started is that Ork players have been some of the most negative players I have encountered when it comes to their army. Further, I find it hard to imagine how Mad Doc and shoota boys seems to be forgotten about in exchange for the likes of burna's and loota's (the loota's are good). I know that it sucks to have so much stuff in your army that is useless... but every codex has useless models... just the ork ones seem like they should be so cool, but then in game they are terrible (kans, defs, battle wagon, looted wagon... etc.)

Thyhadras wrote:
So what do you run that makes your club members run over you so easily? Do you have other models to throw in that could have a different effect... one thing I have noticed since forums for 40k started is that Ork players have been some of the most negative players I have encountered when it comes to their army. Further, I find it hard to imagine how Mad Doc and shoota boys seems to be forgotten about in exchange for the likes of burna's and loota's (the loota's are good). I know that it sucks to have so much stuff in your army that is useless... but every codex has useless models... just the ork ones seem like they should be so cool, but then in game they are terrible (kans, defs, battle wagon, looted wagon... etc.)

Actually I think you're wrong and it'd be sad if you know that many Ork players who are negative. I think most Ork players LOVE being Ork players! I know I certainly do. I can bitch and moan with the best of them about wanting to be able to actually WIN GAMES, but I LOVE my army, and I love it so much that I'll put them on the table knowing that I'll probably lose, because they're FUN to play with. Not gonna lie though, it'd be fun for me to put my Ork army on the table and have my opponent actually be intimidated by it. That hasn't happened since 5th Edition.

The crux of the issue is that Orks have more weaker units in our codex than most armies, and the best units in our codex are still not as good as what most other codexes get for the same amount of points or cheaper. We have lots of weaknesses that are easily exploited, and we don't have many strengths that other armies don't have an easy time surpassing.

In the current game setup, Orks are all Paper, and most armies are sporting Scissors. There aren't many Rocks out there for us that we really shine against.

I'm honestly glad I don't have it worse than I do. I don't play against any Imperial Knight armies. I think I'd rather just not even put my models down against that.

I find GT a boatload of fun to play, and most everyone in my group enjoys facing it. People like to try to incinerate as many greenskins as they can in one go, while I enjoy watching them struggle to succeed. It's definitely not a play style for everyone, but it don't have much issue moving 100+ models. It isn't that hard. Just have to be swift.

As for KFF, I'm really tired of the complaining about it. With how often cover gets ignored in the game today, the change to Invul is a billion times more useful. And having the bubble extend to an entire unit just because one guy's big toe was touching it was completely stupid. We all get annoyed by the monstrous creatures getting a ruin save because his toe is touching it...the same applies here. It's not less stupid because it's Orks. And it isn't orky to have such a confounding rule with no fluffyiness to back up such shinanigans.

Granted, the KFF isn't the best for the green tide due to the sheer size of it. But I've run a couple KFF Meks in it, positioning them as needed to protect them from whatever angle my opponent was trying to get on me. Other times I've had a Morkanaught wade in the front/center of the tide to cast its field or distract gunfire to it as opposed to the Boyz.

I don't feel our Dex is nearly as weak as everyone complains about. Yes, we aren't Necron/Eldar level of stupid. But compared to every other dex, we aren't THAT far from the curve. We get it, the other Xenos are more loved. Deal with it. But we are far from a gakky army.

Murrdox wrote:

Thyhadras wrote:
So what do you run that makes your club members run over you so easily? Do you have other models to throw in that could have a different effect... one thing I have noticed since forums for 40k started is that Ork players have been some of the most negative players I have encountered when it comes to their army. Further, I find it hard to imagine how Mad Doc and shoota boys seems to be forgotten about in exchange for the likes of burna's and loota's (the loota's are good). I know that it sucks to have so much stuff in your army that is useless... but every codex has useless models... just the ork ones seem like they should be so cool, but then in game they are terrible (kans, defs, battle wagon, looted wagon... etc.)

Actually I think you're wrong and it'd be sad if you know that many Ork players who are negative. I think most Ork players LOVE being Ork players! I know I certainly do. I can bitch and moan with the best of them about wanting to be able to actually WIN GAMES, but I LOVE my army, and I love it so much that I'll put them on the table knowing that I'll probably lose, because they're FUN to play with. Not gonna lie though, it'd be fun for me to put my Ork army on the table and have my opponent actually be intimidated by it. That hasn't happened since 5th Edition.

The crux of the issue is that Orks have more weaker units in our codex than most armies, and the best units in our codex are still not as good as what most other codexes get for the same amount of points or cheaper. We have lots of weaknesses that are easily exploited, and we don't have many strengths that other armies don't have an easy time surpassing.

In the current game setup, Orks are all Paper, and most armies are sporting Scissors. There aren't many Rocks out there for us that we really shine against.

I'm honestly glad I don't have it worse than I do. I don't play against any Imperial Knight armies. I think I'd rather just not even put my models down against that.

I agree that Ork players are very passionate about the game and despite our love to point out the short comings of the Ork codex (Mork knows GW doesn't give a squig plop about Ork codex viability), we love the boyz in green and are some of the most excited and involved players in the 40K player base.

I do disagree with your assessment of the Ork codex in that we actually have a lot of "Rock" like matchups in that Orks generally operate outside the standard power unit meta. Every AP 3 and AP2 gun that other armies pay a premium for is basically wasted on the Orks with our focus on body count over armor. Orks care little for snap shooting as we already hit on 5+ so our jinking bikers, shooting at invisible stuff, or hitting flyers is hardly a problem. Orks also tend to spam one unit type to generate target saturation and are not dependent on any one individual unit to get the job done. In tournaments and TAC formats where you can't list tailor, this means trying to counter Ork tactics will cripple you against the main meta picks so Orks don't have to fight anti-ork lists very often. If you play against a tailored list then its going to be rough because Orks are a very papery paper so if they break out the flaming scissors then we are just done. Orks are playing on hard mode but we are sorta playing a different game than the rest of the field which many lists and players have a hard time adapting to.

So, getting roughly back on topic and away from the people saying "ork players are negative and complain to much"

What do you guys think will be the changes to the ork codex with the power creep?

Look in case you haven't figured it out yet, Orks, Chaos Space Marines and Tyranids are designed to be the whipping boys for GWs more profitable lines. They are designed to be the antagonist, yet the loser.

Like others have mentioned, if I take the cynical POV and GW (likely) changes the design paradigm, we'll be one of the factions where GW likely swings back on the pendulum of power and we'll stay in our position with a few changes and tweaks. Chances are that GW will try pushing web-exclusive formations as the primary means of making the Ork army work like the Skyhammer Formation. If formations are still in some fashion then warbuggies will probably be the mandatory "tax" like vypers for eldar and tomb blades for Necrons. Hopefully by then we get a new model but I have a bad feeling we might not.

to level orks up with some of the creep lists, we need a invul saves back, and a formation that gives guys a "gets back up" roll.

Thats about all I want. lol

Just want to point out that yes BattleWagons are expensive, and Trukks are fragile but there is a mid-range alternative.

For 60 points you can have an AV13 front armour, AV12 side, 10 man troop transport with twin-linked shooting, that can also come as a squadron allowing you to take more than one and still have 2 more heavy slots.

The Gun Wagon.

It's a great alternative to the standard codex transport options and I use mine every game. I run 2, and fill them with tankbustas and go hunting after Knights, Landraiders and other tabletop nuisances.

Admittedly, the rules are a bit out of date in IA8, but they are still valid, and an excellent delivery system for just about any unit.
My next game will have a MA Warboss with DLS, MANZ and Painboy in one, flanked with 2 more units of boyz/ Tankbustas/ whatever I decide (maybe even FlashGitz) and sitting in the middle of that formation, out of sight, will be a Big Mek on a bike with no other upgrade except for a KFF giving a lovely 5++ on the whole lot.

Nice.

Power creep for orks....hmmm

From my pov i dont think all that much power will enter s new ork codex. They have a role to play of the goofy fun guys.

Maybe they will be able to swarm the board aith moar boyzzz in a new codex with some formations utilising huge numbers of orks at low cost

You mean, exactly like they have now?

If you want my honest opinion, power creep isn't going to come our way. If for some reason it does, I'll eat three of my Ork Boyz. We'd need someone writing our book to truely love the race and do it proper justice without going over the top.

I'll be honest. I do [u]NOT[/i] our army to be the one people groan at when we pull our models out. If we ever, EVER get to the level of Necron or Eldar stupid, I will not play my army. Because that isn't what I wanted when I bought Orks.

I knew going in Orks were pretty below the curve. But I love our army for what it is. It can be competitive, but it doesn't force me to be. Not every list I make is going to steam roll my opponent and make them groan in frustration, even when I make a sub optimal list. My book allows me to make quite a few different kinds of lists, all of which are fun to play. My army is one virtually EVERYONE loves to play against simply BECAUSE it's not an over powered gak fest, and no two games with Orks ever really feels the same.

We can't even begin to guess what GW will do to the Orks when/if the next book cycle comes around. We can only wish list.

My wish list of changes:

1. More gear - For a faction that's known to be sticky fingered, I feel we have a surprising lack of upgrade options for not just our infantry, but for our vehicles too. Or, perhaps a lack of useful or meaningful upgrades. Specifically, I'd love to see more options for the Lootas. I know Deffguns are bread and butter, but if their name is going to be LOOTAS, they should be able to depict they loot...by having various gear to choose from.

2. Roll back old upgrades - As in, return the gear options to their previous effects. The Deffrolla maybe still needs a few tiny tweaks, but it's pretty ineffective and a more expensive Ram now. Give Cybork Body back the 5+ Invul, even if you only make it for characters. Hell, even let MANZ take it at the very least to make them a little more hardy. Red Paint Job wasn't even broken, I have no idea why they decided to nerf it. I actually like the change to boarding plank, so maybe keep that the way it is.

3. Mob Rule - While this has a lot of controversy, I still believe the current Mob Rule is a step in the right direction, but still not where it needs to be. There's no denying that Fearless was way too abundant, and Orks were kinda abusing it after the Fearless Wounds were removed. The current Mob Rule isn't nearly as good, but the fact that it has the ability to potentially save our Elite units when the prior rule could not DOES make it better and helps make a previously useless rule more useable (Fear). I'll be honest, I am no game designer, so I wouldn't even begin to know WHERE to start with this. But if they could tweak the rule just enough, we might be in a better place without a massive revamp of our codex.

4. Points Tweaks - This alone might be the biggest thing to help us out over everything. A few specific units are just a bit too expensive for what they do, and make it harder for us to spam them in an Orky fashion while some are just a bit too cheap. Kanz, Flash Gitz, Battle Wagons, Naughts...these are a few of the over priced units. In a very shooty rich environment, these units often can't hold out as long as we NEED them too. And their points costs need to reflect that as well. Units like the Mek Gunz in particular could do with a small points hike. I feel those things are a bit too cheap for how good they are.

5. Formations - While Formations have been a hit and miss situation over this book cycle, it's clear that Formations are what is really pushing the top tier books over the edge. I think that Necron and Eldar wouldn't be nearly as hated if their Formations weren't so damn GOOD. If Orks could get a few Formations of equal strength tossed our way (And for EVERY OTHER faction as well, it's not like we are the only struggling army right now) then I think we'd be in a lot better boat. Especially if they went crazy fluffy and made us some very viable clan oriented Formations. Formations alone, without changing anything in the book, would help us substantially. Because as it stands, our book is FAR from bad. It just doesn't have the Formation shenanigans to put us UP THERE with the others.

 r_squared wrote:
Just want to point out that yes BattleWagons are expensive, and Trukks are fragile but there is a mid-range alternative.

For 60 points you can have an AV13 front armour, AV12 side, 10 man troop transport with twin-linked shooting, that can also come as a squadron allowing you to take more than one and still have 2 more heavy slots.

The Gun Wagon.

It's a great alternative to the standard codex transport options and I use mine every game. I run 2, and fill them with tankbustas and go hunting after Knights, Landraiders and other tabletop nuisances.

Admittedly, the rules are a bit out of date in IA8, but they are still valid, and an excellent delivery system for just about any unit.
My next game will have a MA Warboss with DLS, MANZ and Painboy in one, flanked with 2 more units of boyz/ Tankbustas/ whatever I decide (maybe even FlashGitz) and sitting in the middle of that formation, out of sight, will be a Big Mek on a bike with no other upgrade except for a KFF giving a lovely 5++ on the whole lot.

Nice.

Very much agreed. I haven't played with a Gun Wagon myself, but I definitely see the appeal. On the one hand, I feel like it sucks I have to rely on a Forgeworld unit like a crutch. On the other hand, the Gunwagon models are awesome. On the other other hand, ouch my wallet because now I have to order a Mega Dread and why not a Stompa while I'm at it!!

Gun wagons FTW if your group/tournament/friends allow FW or IA books.

we shouldn't have to rely on FW to have a good vehicle though. Maybe if we are really good and we don't put gum in our sisters hair this year GW will give us a useful vehicle in our next codex

have you ever thought that maybe the reason orks are lower tier is because we can make almost any ork vehicle out of non official gw models and toys. maybe gw will give us a codex power creep if every last ork player ever bought official models.
an example is the greentide, it is literally one of our best formations and you have to buy official models just to make it. maybe gw is trying to give us a hint.
they must be trying to punish us for our unofficial models...its a conspiracy!!!

 Ghazkuul wrote:
we shouldn't have to rely on FW to have a good vehicle though. Maybe if we are really good and we don't put gum in our sisters hair this year GW will give us a useful vehicle in our next codex

Isn't that the truth.

Trukks aren't THAT BAD, but they are pretty dang bad. lol

 Ghazkuul wrote:
we shouldn't have to rely on FW to have a good vehicle though. Maybe if we are really good and we don't put gum in our sisters hair this year GW will give us a useful vehicle in our next codex

I agree, but i just view FW as the cool guys looking out for the forgotten armies.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
we shouldn't have to rely on FW to have a good vehicle though. Maybe if we are really good and we don't put gum in our sisters hair this year GW will give us a useful vehicle in our next codex

I agree, but i just view FW as the cool guys looking out for the forgotten armies.

I don't rememebr them doing very much for SoB, but I will give you that. Truthfully the best thing to happen would not be for the Ork's to be adjusted for the power creep, but the power creep for the Orks, as in that GW reigns things in a little, but the chances of that are the same of me walking up getting kissed by a Ilama.

 saithor wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
we shouldn't have to rely on FW to have a good vehicle though. Maybe if we are really good and we don't put gum in our sisters hair this year GW will give us a useful vehicle in our next codex

I agree, but i just view FW as the cool guys looking out for the forgotten armies.

I don't rememebr them doing very much for SoB, but I will give you that. Truthfully the best thing to happen would not be for the Ork's to be adjusted for the power creep, but the power creep for the Orks, as in that GW reigns things in a little, but the chances of that are the same of me walking up getting kissed by a Ilama.

I agree, everyone here keeps saying "No don't increase power decrease everyone elses" but if we have to wait for that BS then its going to be years before we are all down to relatively the same power level, but of course pre 7th edition OP codex (eldar, Necrons, Marines) the Orks were still solidly bottom tier.

I personally want the power creep to hit the Orks like a sledgehammer, not because I want to be the next Eldar Codex but because thats what it would take to make us as competitive as the newer codexs, and I want the MAJORITY of our units to be playable instead of dust collectors. My Morkanaut hasn't fought a single battle in so long it bothers me. I want to be excited about acquiring Kanz and Dreadz and Burna boyz and other units that right now I don't want to because I know they will just collect dust like my Naut is.

Yeah, I was so excited when I saw the models for those, they could have been the things to finally get me into Orks, and then it turned out they sucked. Because if it's above 3 HP and isn't piloted by robots, or is covered in purification seals and piloted by the imperium, it sucks.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
we shouldn't have to rely on FW to have a good vehicle though. Maybe if we are really good and we don't put gum in our sisters hair this year GW will give us a useful vehicle in our next codex

I was very surprised when the new codex dropped and the Orks didn't get a new tank. We got a new walker instead. For a race that loves their vehicles, GW has a remarkably small amount of Ork vehicles in the catalog.

I honestly wonder if it's Forgeworld's fault. The Forgeworld line of Ork vehicles is incredible. I feel like it's a disincentive to design a new Ork tank, because you have to make it somehow better and different from what Forgeworld already has.

Our best bet for a new vehicle is a re-done Buggy kit, with options for 2 or 3 different vehicles, a Buggy, a Skorcha, and something else, hopefully more creative than simply a Kustom Mega Blasta buggy.

Melevolence wrote:
3. Mob Rule - While this has a lot of controversy, I still believe the current Mob Rule is a step in the right direction, but still not where it needs to be. There's no denying that Fearless was way too abundant, and Orks were kinda abusing it after the Fearless Wounds were removed. The current Mob Rule isn't nearly as good, but the fact that it has the ability to potentially save our Elite units when the prior rule could not DOES make it better and helps make a previously useless rule more useable (Fear). I'll be honest, I am no game designer, so I wouldn't even begin to know WHERE to start with this. But if they could tweak the rule just enough, we might be in a better place without a massive revamp of our codex.

(Disclosure: this is based on theory, imagination, and what I've read on the boards... I started the hobby recently and am still in the process of painting my army, haven't actually played yet!)

I don't mind the current Mob Rule rule, although I can see how people used to Fearless mobs would dislike the change. What I think is a problem is how Mob Rule interacts with the Da Boss Iz Watchin' rule from the Waaagh! Ghazkull book. From the description, it seems as if the rule would make it more likely that the Boyz stay in line (they're more disciplined), but when they DO break, they're hit harder. The second part of the rule ("should any units suffer hits from squabble or breaking heads, they get d3+3 rather than d6 hits") makes sense, and obviously represents the second part of the description (when they DO break, they're hit harder). On the other hand, the +2 to the roll makes no sense. It makes it impossible to get a Born to Fight, and, strictly speaking, can lead to undefined results (e.g. I roll a 5, +2 becomes a 7, but the table doesn't say what happens on a 7). My guess would be they meant a -2 on the roll, and treating any result under 1 as 1. That'd mean more Born to Fight (since they're more disciplined), and less Squabble (again, they're more disciplined), but still same amount of Breaking Heads (which is the leaders (i.e. characters) laying down the law, as per the fluff description of the rule). But that's just a guess, of course.

I would give my left nut (or is it my right nut...) for a Ork tank based on the Epic designs. I always loved the look of those things. I never understood why we never got them or any dedicated Ork battle tank for that mater.

Btothefnrock wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
we shouldn't have to rely on FW to have a good vehicle though. Maybe if we are really good and we don't put gum in our sisters hair this year GW will give us a useful vehicle in our next codex

Isn't that the truth.

Trukks aren't THAT BAD, but they are pretty dang bad. lol

For their cost, they are good. They get you where you need them to go. That is their purpose. They are cheap enough to spam and cheap enough to not care about when they pop. Vehicles in general I feel are pretty terrible this edition (With a few exceptions), and they don't last long no matter what you're spending on them. So the less you spend, the better.

^exactly. It only takes one turn of the thing moving to do its job.... which is drop MANz off at the enemy line... haha

Ghaz, I noticed you say this in another thread:

"As as far as the beast mode CC characters in the Eldar dex, how about the crazy CC one that gives up 1 attack to disarm her opponent, forces them and everyone nearbye to drop 5 Init and WS or whatever hte hell it is. SO now my ork boyz are hitting on 5s and wounding on 4s, and unless i gave my Warboss MA he doesn't get a save against your IC."

Given that's where the game is going, what do you want to see changed in the Ork CC HQ's?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Ghaz, I noticed you say this in another thread:

"As as far as the beast mode CC characters in the Eldar dex, how about the crazy CC one that gives up 1 attack to disarm her opponent, forces them and everyone nearbye to drop 5 Init and WS or whatever hte hell it is. SO now my ork boyz are hitting on 5s and wounding on 4s, and unless i gave my Warboss MA he doesn't get a save against your IC."

Given that's where the game is going, what do you want to see changed in the Ork CC HQ's?

Personally? I wish GW would give up on 7th edition as a flop. Remake EVERY SINGLE CODEX in a single release and play test the hell out of them so that they are all balanced. Then release for 8th edition. Nerf every OP unit in the game so that everything has a use but not ALL uses. That way nobody walks into a game and starts off at a distinct disadvantage.

No IC should be able to give up 1 attack and take away my Fething Power Klaw. The only realistic way to beat that IC is to fight her with an IC that has 2 PKs or Kill saws. and even then your still hitting on 5s and you lose your bonus attack from 2 CCW.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
No IC should be able to give up 1 attack and take away my Fething Power Klaw. The only realistic way to beat that IC is to fight her with an IC that has 2 PKs or Kill saws. and even then your still hitting on 5s and you lose your bonus attack from 2 CCW.

Or just give Ghaz AP2 from a rule like Smash.

He's a 225pt LoW, he shouldn't be too easy to neutralize.

If Ghaz could Waaagh! every turn I would be fine with that. Keep that 2+ invulnerable lol

Would make him an exceptional character then and solve Orks Mob Rule in one go.

Then I could drown Jain in Boyz

 Frozocrone wrote:
If Ghaz could Waaagh! every turn I would be fine with that. Keep that 2+ invulnerable lol

Would make him an exceptional character then and solve Orks Mob Rule in one go.

Then I could drown Jain in Boyz

Ironically he would still lose to Jain because he would be swinging last at lower WS well it might be a tie I don't know. Regardless you can't buff ghaz because then everyone starts saying he is OP....

I dont even play orks but yea, better walkers. I love orky walkers, more fun for my kataphrons!