The space marine is the epitome of human perfection and superior in every way to the normal human. It is the embodiment of the Übermensch (German for "Overman, Overhuman, Above-Human, Superman, Superhuman, Ultraman, Ultrahuman, Beyond-Man) in Nazi and Nietzsche philosophy. Hence other non-space marine humans or inferiors cannot give orders to a superhuman. It would be like an sub-human Neanderthal giving orders to a genius super powerful highly evolved being. It is like a uneducated slave ordering around his wealthy master. It is against natural law.
Space Marines were inspired by Starship Troopers the original 1950s novel (not the movie) which had very Fascist overtones of citizens and non-citizens and superhumans. I'm not just quoting Nazi philosophy or the concept that 1 German Soldier was the equal of 100 sub-human soldiers but the fluff establishes that the space marines are superman. And superman have the will to power. The term Übermensch was used frequently by the Nazis to describe their idea of a biologically superior master race or in this case the Space Marine. The Nazi idea of the supermen also spawned the idea of "inferior humans" (Untermenschen) which could be dominated and enslaved which in this case are the normal humans.
Shouldn't space marines take over the Imperium and force their inferiors to serve them? All of humanity should be made subservient to the space marine and worship them as instruments of the Emperor's divine will like how the Pope in Rome is in today's world for Catholics. The Space Marines could easily kill the merely human High Lords of Terra and overthrow the religious orders. The Admech and the human military guard would submit to the space marine or be destroyed.
Humanity will be lead solely by the Space Marines as highly superior beings. Why haven't the Space Marines chapters figured this out yet that they basically are gods among monkeys? Why should monkeys lead a god? The monkeys and ants should serve them. It is the nature way of the universe.
I'm wondering if IRL when we created superhumans we are eventually creating our own masters and enslaving ourselves to the future Übermensch. Chinese eugenics today are recreating the vision of the Nazi scientists in the 40s for the furtherment of humanity.
No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)
It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.
Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.
Swastakowey wrote: No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)
It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.
Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.
From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?
ionusx wrote: no because the adeptus custodes would be far better leaders posessing no emotions to sway, a billion times better physical bodies and skills.
Ok fine but they are just another type of superman. So we're in agreement that normal citizens and mere humans of the imperium are not fit to rule themselves and should all be slaves to the Custodians and Space Marines?
Why on earth would humanity serve the Space Marines?
There are practically none of them, they're one of the rarest things in the universe. So few as to realistically be effectively non-existent in terms of galaxy wide wars, with hundreds of millions, if not billions, of normal human soldiers to each Space Marine who may individually be worth maybe a dozen human soldiers. They die to heavy weapons fire like artillery, plasma fire, orbital bombardments, tank cannon, etc almost as easily as naked humans.
A Space Marine is superior in terms of physical ability, but that only matters in certain circumstances. Space Marines likewise are not necessarily any more mentally competent than normal humans, though perhaps better educated thanks to hypno-indoctrination than your average hive-worker. There are psykers and geniuses amongst normal human populations that can rival or exceed those found amongst the Space Marines, and in far greater numbers since, well, there's a whole lot more normal humans.
Most importantly, Space Marines have shown that, by and large, they're no better at ruling or keeping things in line than anyone else. Fully half the original Space Marines turned traitor. Over fifty full post-heresy Chapters have turned traitor, and innumerable companies, squads, and individual Space Marines have done so as well, either in the service of Chaos or to reign on their own as pirates and marauders.
In fact, this is a large part of what caused the Heresy, as many Space Marines thought (or realized) that once the Great Crusade was completed, they'd really have no further use and purpose.
The Horus Heresy is very much like the bible story of Lucifer rebellion with God. The Angels were created to protect mankind just as the Astartes were created to protect mankind. When an Angel or Astartes's attitude changes and thinks himself superior to man then he is corrupted by evil/chaos.
Swastakowey wrote: No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)
It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.
Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.
From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?
Because those Monkeys outnumber them a billion or so to one, and even these so-caleld supermen would realize that they would have the complete and utter heck beat out of them. They wouldn't have control over the entire Imperial Navy, so good luck controlling the spacewyas when your cruisers are busy fighting all of the rest of the Imperial's space navy. They don't own any of the titans or the Imperial Knights, which would liquify them to heck. The Admech would probably massacre them with Phosphor rounds while the Dreadnought get the heck beaten out of them by Admech robots. Then we have the utterly huge Imperial Guard, with arguably much better vehicles, sheer numbers, and Power-armour ignoring Stormtroopers. Adepta Sororitas to flame them to death. Also, the Inquisition because Nobody Expects the Inquisition! Seriously though, the Inquisition is so good that they on their own almost wiped out the Space Wolves, an entire chapter of Marines and arguably one of the most powerful.
Also, SM are only the perfect physical specimen, not the mental one. And as Vaktahi pointed out, Chaos loves turning these gys to the dark side. Serously, nobody is surprised when Humans turn, because "Humans are weak", but half of their pre-heresy numbers? Fifty post-heresy chapters? One must wonder if the SM gene-seed has a genetic weakness of being extremely suspectible to chaos taint.
Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans. Read the codex. They are SMARTER. Their superhuman intelligence is why they have higher BS and WS than even the best guardmen.
Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
DorianGray wrote: Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans.
Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
If they were the superior human beings, why are they in essentially what is the equivalant of a civil war with themselves in which they have to rely on these "useless" monkeys to help just barely keep on the brink of survival! Why are they unable to take down several race of aliens that are not much physically different from these "useless" monkeys! They don't even have an armored vehicle with an AV of 14 (probably even 13)! They have no acsess to Titans outside of those "Useless" Monkeys! THye ave a very small navy without the help of those "Useless" monkeys! THye would be unable to properly garrison the entire space empire without the help of those "useless" monkeys!
DorianGray wrote: Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans.
Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
Are they?
If you think about it, how far can a Space Marine run if he has to fuel such a large body? Cattle, Sheep and Goats tend to spend most of their time eating as they move around, it is likely Space Marines need very frequent food breaks. This means they need humans to fuel their "amazing speed" with human farming and produce.
Are they Smarter? I mean, 99% of pictures I see of Space Marines have them fighting in close quarters or on hills in giant battle lines, for such a rare creature these tactics seem rather fatal. Talking about Combat, Space Marines hands are so huge they likely cannot operate fine machinery which undeniably fuels their impractical weaponry and gear. Again one of their strengths is a liability if they had to try take over.
Stronger? Well that's all well and good, but again many insects are stronger and "smarter" than ants... but ants win 99% of their battles with other insects. Why? Superior numbers, the knowledge of how to best use their numbers and all in all just a superior community.
Space Marines individually may be scary, but in context of the human empire they are pitiful slaves who need us to function. We arguably don;t even need them, they are there because we allow them to be.
DorianGray wrote: Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans.
Faster, Stronger? Sure. Smarter? Nothing about in their geneseed does anything to enhance intelligence. They are trained in how best to utilize their intelligence and hypno-indoctrinated with vast amounts of knowledge, but are not fundamentally more intelligent than anyone else beyond whatever minimum bar would prevent them from passing trials to becoming a Space Marine (e.g. being too stupid to duck, not recognizing traps, etc).
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
That's some rather absurd thinking. They're physically powerful, but the Space Marines have shown over 10,000 years that, by and large, they're no wiser, intelligent, etc than normal humans.
Again, half the original batch of Space Marines turned traitor, and significant numbers of post-heresy Marines have as well. Even amongst the loyalists, many (if not most) simply rule over feudal, backwards societies on the homeworlds they were granted like primitive medieval lords. When they break free from the Imperium, they almost always operate as simple pirates or petty local warlords, or they fall to Chaos.
Also, as noted, they're largely helpless by themselves. and require huge numbers of serfs (or slaves) to do many day to day things for them.
And, again, they're outnumbered to such a degree that that even if you took every combatant from every power of every conflict of the 20th century, including both world wars, you still probably wouldn't have enough to match how outnumbered each individual Space Marine is.
Swastakowey wrote: No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)
It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.
Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.
From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?
Because those Monkeys outnumber them a billion or so to one, and even these so-caleld supermen would realize that they would have the complete and utter heck beat out of them. They wouldn't have control over the entire Imperial Navy, so good luck controlling the spacewyas when your cruisers are busy fighting all of the rest of the Imperial's space navy. They don't own any of the titans or the Imperial Knights, which would liquify them to heck. The Admech would probably massacre them with Phosphor rounds while the Dreadnought get the heck beaten out of them by Admech robots. Then we have the utterly huge Imperial Guard, with arguably much better vehicles, sheer numbers, and Power-armour ignoring Stormtroopers. Adepta Sororitas to flame them to death. Also, the Inquisition because Nobody Expects the Inquisition! Seriously though, the Inquisition is so good that they on their own almost wiped out the Space Wolves, an entire chapter of Marines and arguably one of the most powerful..
What makes you think the other branches of the Terran military would side against them? They know the Space Marines are superior to them, many would side with them and recognise them as Gods. The Navy? 5 Space Marine Terminators could teleport into the bridge of every space cruiser and terminate the crew. 1 Space Marine could take on 1 million guardsman. The rest would give up. The Admech? Their robot soldiers are dull and cannot match the flexibility and tactics of superman. Also the Admech are few in number and less than the Space Marines. The sisters are battle are just normal humans in suits they would be smashed to a pulp. The Knights crew would be killed without even getting a chance to enter their titans.
The Space Marines could take over the IoM in one large massive rebellion overthrowing the government of normal humans and replacing them with superman.
Astartes by their very nature are flawed, they have to be to be able to continuously fight like they do, they are obsessed with honours and traditions that serve little purpose other than to ensure they never stop being ready for difficult combat
They have shown multiple times to not be capable of commanding more than their own forces and sometimes a planet and even then mostly struggle to interact with the humans, Only the Ultramarines have ever held a successful non-corrupted region of space together and that has been down to that being a tradition of theirs for TEN THOUSAND YEARS
The Astartes aren't cut out for leading non military humans
Swastakowey wrote: No because Space Marines are expensive, wasteful, impractical and very unintelligent (how often do we see them sit on a hill and fight to the death?)
It is clear humans are superior because it is the humans who both rule and win the wars. With only 1 million Space Marines there is nothing they can over throw but maybe some farm worlds.
Space Marines only place is humanities poster boy slave.
From our perspective maybe, but our opinions are like opinions or senseless babble of monkeys to them. Why should gods care about the thoughts of monkeys?
Because those Monkeys outnumber them a billion or so to one, and even these so-caleld supermen would realize that they would have the complete and utter heck beat out of them. They wouldn't have control over the entire Imperial Navy, so good luck controlling the spacewyas when your cruisers are busy fighting all of the rest of the Imperial's space navy. They don't own any of the titans or the Imperial Knights, which would liquify them to heck. The Admech would probably massacre them with Phosphor rounds while the Dreadnought get the heck beaten out of them by Admech robots. Then we have the utterly huge Imperial Guard, with arguably much better vehicles, sheer numbers, and Power-armour ignoring Stormtroopers. Adepta Sororitas to flame them to death. Also, the Inquisition because Nobody Expects the Inquisition! Seriously though, the Inquisition is so good that they on their own almost wiped out the Space Wolves, an entire chapter of Marines and arguably one of the most powerful..
What makes you think the other branches of the Terran military would side against them? They know the Space Marines are superior to them, many would side with them and recognise them as Gods. The Navy? 5 Space Marine Terminators could teleport into the bridge of every space cruiser and terminate the crew.
They have to get close, and shields have to be down., Guess what generally outranges Space Marine warships? Imperial Navy warships, which also vastly outnumber them.
1 Space Marine could take on 1 million guardsman.
Huh? Where on earth are you getting such an absurd number. Even Rogal Dorn suggested his Space Marines were the equal of perhaps 10 human soldiers.
The rest would give up. The Admech? Their robot soldiers are dull and cannot match the flexibility and tactics of superman. Also the Admech are few in number and less than the Space Marines.
The AdMech are not fewer in number.
The Knights crew would be killed without even getting a chance to enter their titans.
Care to explain exactly how that would come to pass?
The Space Marines could take over the IoM in one large massive rebellion overthrowing the government of normal humans and replacing them with superman.
And yet they failed when they tried There is conclusive proof of failure.
Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans. Read the codex. They are SMARTER. Their superhuman intelligence is why they have higher BS and WS than even the best guardmen.
Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
Haven't you read the two previous posts?
SM may be considered as gods by normal imperial soldiers or citizens but in the eyes of the Lords of Terra, who ultimately decide whether or not new SM chapters should be created, they are merely a weapon, a high precision tool they can use to help regular forces to win. SM are created by Imperial political power, they don't own it.
Plus, individual strengh is nuts in the military balance. Who cares about your higher BS (not higher than an IG Vet or a stormtrooper that being said) when you have a small fleet, limited armour and next to zero artillery? The last military leaders who though ubermenschen would never lose against the rest of humanity because of their inborn superiority were Nazis. Too bad they did not know sh*t about industrial war and strategic-scale operations.
Was going to respond, but Vaktahi beat it to me. Thank you Vak. In all serioussness, The Space Marines are the genetic perfection of human strength, but that is till not a match for sheer numbers, or the fact that guess who manufactures almost all of the SM armory. Monkeys. Good luck fighting on when you can't even get new suit of armour or even a new bolter each time they get broken or destroyed. No new Rhinos, Predators, Flyers, Warships, Dreadnoughts, etc., etc.
Oh, and for the IoM knowing that Space Marines are always superior. I'm sure the Inquisition and the Officio Assainoroum would like argue that considering they were winning a secret underground war agaisnt the space wolves while at the same time keeping up their regular duties across the period. Also, the IoM fights Chaos Space Marines all the time, if they are capable of fighting CSM without immediatly bowing down to them, I'm pretty sure they'll resist the urge with the regular ones. As for the Adepta Sororitas, they want revenge for the paint incident.
Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans. Read the codex. They are SMARTER. Their superhuman intelligence is why they have higher BS and WS than even the best guardmen.
Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
Haven't you read the two previous posts?
SM may be considered as gods by normal imperial soldiers or citizens but in the eyes of the Lords of Terra, who ultimately decide whether or not new SM chapters should be created, they are merely a weapon, a high precision tool they can use to help regular forces to win. SM are created by Imperial political power, they don't own it.
Plus, individual strengh is nuts in the military balance. Who cares about your higher BS (not higher than an IG Vet or a stormtrooper that being said) when you have a small fleet, limited armour and next to zero artillery? The last military leaders who though ubermenschen would never lose against the rest of humanity because of their inborn superiority were Nazis. Too bad they did not know sh*t about industrial war and strategic-scale operations.
The high lords of terra can be killed and replaced by either Chapter Lords or other humans serving the will of the Superman. You forget that just by mere presence and declaration SM Chapters could sway entire systems to their hypothetical rebellion and have mere humans serve them. SM lead by their rebel human servants could easily combat the SM-less Imperium.
A full SM rebellion and plot to overthrow humanity would be incredibly destructive in the least and probably succeed.
Your answer to every argument is "meh, they can be killed by SM anyway". But your Mary Sue superhuman can't be everywhere at one time.
I don't think you will convince anybody with that. Though, I do concede that a SM rebellion would upset the Imperium pretty badly. But ultimately, they would fail to strategic odds.
Ok, quick mental excersise here. The Imperium standard pattern Lascannon is going to more often than not kill one space marine if aimed at him. There are a few million space marines max. The Imperium can produce billions of Lascannons and have the numbers to man all of them. There. And again, if the Supermen reel, who is going to manufacture their stuff again? The SM lack the ability to manufacture enough new wgear to keep up with combat losses, outside of the salamanders.
I'm saying a billion + humans will recognise the superiority of the SM and join their rebellion against the imperium. So it is not just the SM themselves now it is billions of normal humans too.
You are thinking to yourself why would a normal human willingly become a slave to supermen?
1. If you don't you will die.
2. You underestimate the willingness of people to look for a leader or overarching god to led them. Think of the support for the Monarchy in modern day England or support of Vladimir Putin who rules Russia with an iron fist.
3. They might think life under the supermen would be better than life under the status quo. (It won't but you know...)
4. Only the SM could save them from the corruption and threat to humanity like nids, Orks, Chaos. They are better suited to led against these threats than the high lords who probably never even been in combat,
So hundreds upon hundreds of hive worlds, agri worlds, and forge worlds could join their side and supply them with auxiliary troops to use as cannon fodder, weapons, supplies, everything.
Unfortunately, the Imperium already has a god, the Emperor. One who is far more prevalent, more mentioned and more known than any Chapter Master could hope to be on a galactic scale.
curran12 wrote: Unfortunately, the Imperium already has a god, the Emperor. One who is far more prevalent, more mentioned and more known than any Chapter Master could hope to be on a galactic scale.
The SM rebellion would say they are the instrument of his will. He created them. The emperor is on a throne and is functionally dead, the SM can accurately say it is the will of the Emperor for them to rule and guide mankind (as slaves).
DorianGray wrote: I'm saying a billion + humans will recognise the superior of the SM and join their rebellion against the imperium. So it is not just the SM themselves now it is billions of normal humans too.
You are thinking to yourself why would a normal human willingly become a slave to supermen?
1. If you don't you will die.
2. You underestimate the willingness of people to look for a leader or overarching god to led them. Think of the support for the Monarchy in modern day England or support of Vladimir Putin who rules Russia with an iron fist.
3. They might think life under the supermen would be better than life under the status quo.
Yes, because who knows what compelling leaders the Imperium could possibly have. All of those Cadians are obviously going to chose some unknown over Creed, same for the Steel Legion and Yarrick, and practically evey other guard regiment and it's leaders. And I'm sure all of those inquisitors, comissars, and their henchmen have obiouvly secretly believed that it is the Space Marines and not the emperor that should be in charge and worshipped. Also, as for life under the supermen being better than that under that Staus Quo, who do you think has helped ensure the Status Quo?
To add to Saithor's claims : The Ecclesiarchy would totally let imperial citizens do that. And these people would totally follow some unknwon space traitors in power armour while they live everyday side by side with the Administratum, which is by contrast a very tangible organization.
curran12 wrote: Unfortunately, the Imperium already has a god, the Emperor. One who is far more prevalent, more mentioned and more known than any Chapter Master could hope to be on a galactic scale.
The SM rebellion would say they are the instrument of his will. He created them. The emperor is on a throne and is functionally dead, the SM can accurately say it is the will of the Emperor for them to rule and guide mankind (as slaves).
All right, you go back and tell them that the Space Marines rules their taking over the Imperium, Calgar. It's all over the papers. The High Lords are going to like that; so they’re going to call a bunch of their firends. Now you got the Inquisition and the Imperial Guard against ya and they're going to adore ya for it and they're going to say it with lasrounds. Oh, and the Admech are going to love ya too and the Schole Progneum and the Imperial Navy. Ho ho, Calgar, you're going to be an awful popular fella. And what about the Titan Legions? Why, they got at least a titan for every planet, and they’ve got more to spare. But you go ahead Calgar, you do it your way. You go on back in there and tell them that you rule that the Space Marines are taking over the Imperium. Go on. But if you do, remember this: you can count on getting just two votes, your own and that Primarch Vulcan's out there.
RazgrizOne wrote: To add to Saithor's claims : The Ecclesiarchy would totally let imperial citizens do that. And these people would totally follow some unknwon space traitors in power armour while they live everyday side by side with the Administratum, which is by contrast a very tangible organization.
Do you understand that the Space Marines are thought of as gods and paragons of humanity by the average imperial citizen? Whereas the administratum is a bunch of paper pushers and social workers? Who's side would you flock to?
Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans. Read the codex. They are SMARTER. Their superhuman intelligence is why they have higher BS and WS than even the best guardmen.
Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
Haven't you read the two previous posts?
SM may be considered as gods by normal imperial soldiers or citizens but in the eyes of the Lords of Terra, who ultimately decide whether or not new SM chapters should be created, they are merely a weapon, a high precision tool they can use to help regular forces to win. SM are created by Imperial political power, they don't own it.
Plus, individual strengh is nuts in the military balance. Who cares about your higher BS (not higher than an IG Vet or a stormtrooper that being said) when you have a small fleet, limited armour and next to zero artillery? The last military leaders who though ubermenschen would never lose against the rest of humanity because of their inborn superiority were Nazis. Too bad they did not know sh*t about industrial war and strategic-scale operations.
The high lords of terra can be killed and replaced by either Chapter Lords or other humans serving the will of the Superman.
Assuming they could get past Titans, human soldiers that outnumber them billions to one, Assassins that can engage entire squads of Space Marines on their own, the Imperial Navy, etc.
You forget that just by mere presence and declaration SM Chapters could sway entire systems to their hypothetical rebellion and have mere humans serve them.
Usually not, and the 40k universe has shown that such rebellions pretty much always end with the destruction of the rebels.
SM lead by their rebel human servants could easily combat the SM-less Imperium.
Hrm, probably not, what are you basing that assumption on?
A full SM rebellion and plot to overthrow humanity would be incredibly destructive in the least and probably succeed.
Seems like they've failed every time they've tried so far...
DorianGray wrote: I'm saying a billion + humans will recognise the superiority of the SM and join their rebellion against the imperium.
Why would the humans care? There's nothing about the SM's that make them superior rulers.
So it is not just the SM themselves now it is billions of normal humans too.
Which is an entirely different scenario than the one earlier presented, and one that has shown to have been defeated by the Imperium countless times going all the way back to the Heresy. Empires run by Space Marines do not endure.
You are thinking to yourself why would a normal human willingly become a slave to supermen?
1. If you don't you will die.
Why and how? The Space Marines are outnumbered billions to one. They can be killed by small arms fire, even if it's extremely difficult, and the SM's die to tanks, artillery, orbital bombardment, heavy infantry weapons, etc like anyone else.
2. You underestimate the willingness of people to look for a leader or overarching god to led them. Think of the support for the Monarchy in modern day England or support of Vladimir Putin who rules Russia with an iron fist.
The Monarchy of England holds very little power, while the methods of maintaining power in Russia for Putin are very different from those used by the Space Marines.
3. They might think life under the supermen would be better than life under the status quo. (It won't but you know...)
There's been countless examples of the SM's doing this sort of thing, and it fails every time.
4. Only the SM could save them from the corruption and threat to humanity like nids, Orks, Chaos. They are better suited to led against these threats than the high lords who probably never even been in combat,
Except the Space Marines are just as fallible as anyone else. *HALF* the original Space Marines were corrupted. Large numbers of post-heresy marines have been corrupted. The Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, Mechanicus, planetary defense forces, and other organizations fight 99% of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot.
RazgrizOne wrote: To add to Saithor's claims : The Ecclesiarchy would totally let imperial citizens do that. And these people would totally follow some unknwon space traitors in power armour while they live everyday side by side with the Administratum, which is by contrast a very tangible organization.
Do you understand that the Space Marines are thought of as gods and paragons of humanity by the average imperial citizen? Whereas the administratum is a bunch of paper pushers and social workers? Who's side would you flock to?
That might be (though half may also have never heard of them), but they hold other establishments in just as high regard, or fear. Most Imperial citizens are going to be far more compelled to act a certain way by the Inquisition or the Ecclesiarchy than they would by the Space Marines.
Then they wouldn't be really any different from their CSM counterparts aside from not aligning themselves with the pantheon of Chaos. Except even CSM knowledge and don't tread upon those of the Dark Mechanicus (who, if I may, definitely need more appearances in the fluff - like them testing the superiority of their daemon merged invented creations in crusades against the Adeptus Mechanicus or something - and even representation on tabletop would be nice). Remember, Horus had to barter and bribe part of the Mechanicus to ALLY with him in his war against the Emperor. He didn't command these mechanical "monkeys."
Oh, and lets not forget about human ruled and controlled worlds within the realm of chaos which CSM seem to let be, even treat equally in alliances (I.e. Daemonworld) unless they happen to be worshipping a different god.
In short, your proposition would arguably make the Imperium worse for humanity than chaos. Toss the Nazi twisted version of the ubermensch and what an ubermensch does out and maybe it'd be more agreeable. Although then you might be adding an element of noble bright within the Imperium and we all know that the setting being grimdark and all couldn't have that... Oh well, your version might add a pinch to the grimdarkness of it all. Carry on!
If marines tried to take over, I'd just nuke them. There's an unrealistically small number of them. Generally when I discuss marines, I pretend there are at least 1,000,000 of them per chapter or even 1,000,000,000.
Martel732 wrote: If marines tried to take over, I'd just nuke them. There's an unrealistically small number of them. Generally when I discuss marines, I pretend there are at least 1,000,000 of them per chapter or even 1,000,000,000.
Martel732 wrote: If marines tried to take over, I'd just nuke them. There's an unrealistically small number of them. Generally when I discuss marines, I pretend there are at least 1,000,000 of them per chapter or even 1,000,000,000.
Yep. Besides which, as for worshipping them, regular guardsmen hate Stormtroopers, Comissars and the Inquisition. What makes you think they wouldn't hate a bunch of eugenics obsessed Space Marines. Not to mention that the Imperium would probably ally with Tau and Eldar before
letting themselves be controlled by the SM.
Martel732 wrote: If marines tried to take over, I'd just nuke them. There's an unrealistically small number of them. Generally when I discuss marines, I pretend there are at least 1,000,000 of them per chapter or even 1,000,000,000.
They might make sense at that point
Most sci-fi writers have this problem of scale because they don't comprehend the scale of a solar neighborhood, much less a galaxy. You need thousands upon thousands of vessels just to do anything, and billions and billions of troops.
Martel732 wrote: If marines tried to take over, I'd just nuke them. There's an unrealistically small number of them. Generally when I discuss marines, I pretend there are at least 1,000,000 of them per chapter or even 1,000,000,000.
They might make sense at that point
Most sci-fi writers have this problem of scale because they don't comprehend the scale of a solar neighborhood, much less a galaxy. You need thousands upon thousands of vessels just to do anything, and billions and billions of troops.
Not really, I never noticed any big problems in the Baen books or in more classic sci-fi like Dune, which had pretty big armies, fleets, or smaller universes.
Just think about the people who write for Star Trek/Star Wars. And 40K for that matter. The scale is completely wrong. Dune was rather vague about the whole thing. But as soon as you start spouting numbers, you can get yourself into big trouble.
Since everyone else has tackled the rest I'll get down a couple things.
First off, many Chapters wouldn't WANT to do this, those who actually care about normal people (like the Salamanders).
Though I would mention that while Mahreens leading the Imperium and taking it over ain't happening, some Space Marines taking charge of a planet or system totally could, Some might even end up decent leaders. The proviso being they could really only go so far before trouble would start brewing.
Martel732 wrote: Just think about the people who write for Star Trek/Star Wars. And 40K for that matter. The scale is completely wrong. Dune was rather vague about the whole thing. But as soon as you start spouting numbers, you can get yourself into big trouble.
They also tend to miss out something I find completely immersion breaking.
How these fighting armies etc are supplied. In real life, from the men who gather resources right up to the men who hand out these supplies is a huge number of men and effort involved. The bigger the operations the bigger the supply trains etc. The number of fighting men are small, but the number grows smaller when the support staff and material tonnage and so on are not considered as well.
I don't think it is just a lack of scale, but a lack of thought going into the hows and whys of the event or story. Id wager that the efficiency and number of men and machines involved in logistical support is what wins most wars anyway, but that doesn't sound as cool I guess.
Space Marines were not created to be leaders.
Their sole purpose is to fight. To serve humanity.
I would also think that following the Heresy, the High Lords would have developed protocols to deal with a second uprising.
If you want an Ubermensch leader, get the Emperor.
Read some David Weber and John Ringo, they actually do tend to pay more attention to logistics and the mechanics then others. Maybe a little too much, but I like that kind of stuff.
Not everyone wants to just bow down and blow Calgar like Mat Ward and the OP do...
I'd love to see ol' Marneus yell "c'mon guys, let's take 'em over!" and quickly realize the level of bs that Ward's whole "Spiritual Liege lord and all Marines want to touch him where he pees" embodies. A Salamander Scout would just cap him in the back of the head. "God-rebellion" over.
Reading most of the novels, it seems more along the lines that Space Marines were engineered to be subservient and follow orders. The HH shows this in how the majority of the line marines willingly turned just because they were "following orders". The Marines weren't designed with philosophical thought in mind, as a mater of fact if you read the books, the marines that thought beyond their orders or beyond anything to do with combat were looked upon as being different than a standard marine. This usually is what caused those marines to become officers, because they did have the ability to think, but the average marine cared little beyond point, shoot, kill, repeat.
They were created to be weapons that were controllable, the Primarchs were the ones that could think and reason enough to want to change their status from soldier to God. Very few major examples since the HH exist in the lore to show other marines that wanted to rule humanity, with notable exceptions being the Badab War, and the Soul Drinkers. However, if you look at the lore for both of those, the forces of Chaos had a hand in BOTH of those rebellions and changed the character of their leaders beyond that of a normal Space marine.
saithor wrote: Read some David Weber and John Ringo, they actually do tend to pay more attention to logistics and the mechanics then others. Maybe a little too much, but I like that kind of stuff.
David Weber is one of the worst authors I have ever read. He made up physics so space battles would mirror Napoleonic ship battles. I wouldn't trust him to teach an 8th grade science class.
I support Space Marines taking over the Imperium. Specifically, the traitorous Chaos Space Marines shall consign all of humanity to the ruinous powers!
Without the support of the Adeptus Mechanicus the Space Marines will have a hard time maintaining their equipment and vessels. Additionally, Space Marines are rapid assault shock troops. Without help from the Imperial Guard they will have a hard time consolidating whatever minor gains they could make before being blown apart by the Imperial Navy.
I'd like to point out that, aside from some of the, er, dubious reasoning going on here...
They were never intended as gods, but as rapid shock troops - and after that, cast as angels. Servants, not rulers. Warriors, not lawmakers. Sometimes a space marine gets it into their head to rise above that - and you can ask Huron how well that worked out for him.
No way in hell the Marines would even come to close to being able to subvert humanity.
And using game stats, the best humans, Lord Commissars/General Commissar have better WS and BS than a normal SM. So does that mean they're more intelligent?
All other considerations aside, wouldn't the Codex Astartes also have something to say? Specifically that a Chapter shall rule it's recruiting world - if it has one - and not mess around elsewhere. Marines are meant to fight the enemies of humanity, not lord it over humans. Chapters like Salamanders and Space Wolves that actually seem to care about the affairs of normal men are considered a bit eccentric.
Thousands sons was best legion to serve humankind by leading and teaching but not anymore. Superhumans are crated to serve humankind, we need another ones to lead.
Maybe adMech would be good to lead humanity to glorious future? If you want that kind of future.
They shouldn't because that would be an inherently boring and stupid story to read in 40k. As if this setting needs any more "and then it got even worse!"
j31c3n wrote: They shouldn't because that would be an inherently boring and stupid story to read in 40k.
It would also be boring to read of the marines after the takeover, when they're no longer warriors but glorified bureaucrats (like the samurai) filling in forms. "Brother Aphrael, are those TP reports ready?"
Once upon a time in M.36, a very bad man by the name of Goge Vandire took over the Imperium.
He enslaved women, taxed planets to death, and hurt a lot of people.
The Adeptus Mechanicus didn't like this very much, so they went on an epic quest to bring the famous hero, Sebastian Thor and his billions-strong army of heroic soldiers to help them, but even the great Confederation of Light wasn't powerful enough to break through Vandire's Terran defences. So they went and begged the Space Marines for help.
The Ultramarines said: "It's not my problem, I have a war in Maccrage to fight."
The Salamanders said: "It's not my problem, I have civilians to save."
The Space Wolves said: "Haha, those idiots, have fun. Not my problem, have a drink." (and then they got drunk, which is why alcohol is bad).
And so it went, until they came to the Imperial Fists. The Setinels of Terra new their duty, and came to help. They brought their friends with them, three other full chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Black Templars, largest and most fanatical of the chapters. The Fire Hawks, cursed by ill-luck and dedicated to the defence of the realm. The Soul Drinkers, heroic warriors used to close-quarters and bloody fights.
These four great chapters of the magnificent Space Marines, alloyed with the heroic Confederation of Light, an army billions strong, and the technologically advanced Adeptus Mechanicus layed siege to the Ecclesiastical Palace on Terra. The seat of Imperial power... and they failed.
Vandire's fortress stood fast against their might. The greatest minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus could not figure a way in. The most brilliant siegemasters of the Adeptus Astartes could not force entry. The teeming hordes of human heroes could not stop Vandire's guns.
The one day, the shooting stopped. The doors to the palace opened, and a girl walked out. Armoured, and wielding a silver-bladed power sword, she held high the head of the villainous Vandire.
The armies parted before her, and she marched between them to the command post where the invading forces planned their losing war. Behind her came the palace's defenders, all three thousand who yet lived. Women, some as young as thirteen, in battle-proud armour.
"I," the woman announced to the waiting leaders of the attacking force, "am Alicia Dominica. I hereby offer the unconditional surrender of the Ecclesiastical Palace, and present to you the head of the arch-traitor, Goge Vandire."
All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.
DorianGray wrote: It is like a uneducated slave ordering around his wealthy master. It is against natural law.
Quite apart from the fact the rest of your premise is incredibly immature, simplistic and frankly wrong, the fact you wrote this sentence is shocking. Even considering the context, and supposing that you might be trolling, that is bad. (London) Absolute Radio drivetime has a female presenter who likes to troll message boards with incredibly dumb statements and see how many like/unlikes and comments she can get. There was also a group who quoted Hitler's jewish statements and changed them to be about immigrants on Daily Mail pages and got lots of likes. Is this the 40k equivalent? The very idea that uneducated equals unintelligent or unworthy, or the implication that being an owner makes you intelligent, educated or somehow more worthy... Wow. Can you see the error in what you wrote now?
Now, to discuss the rest of your post, your argument is essentially Might makes Right.
You say Space Marines are more perfect and superior in every way. Does that include works of great literature? Do they make better mothers and fathers? Are they great examples of community policing? Have they done a thousand years of charity? You are defining perfection and supremacy in a very narrow range of physical feats and making war.
You describe humans as monkeys compared to Space Marines. On what basis? What have Space Marines created other than instruments of war? Have they created new buildings, or ways of living?
For the Grimdark world they live in, where There Is Only War, Space Marines are the ultimate soldier, and in that context you could make an argument that they are therefore top of the pile, but your post strays into some incredibly dangerous comparisons with more modern equivalents that suggests you seem to believe that physical supremacy and ability to make war makes you superior. I am sure that the Nazis, Genghis Khan and the like would agree with you, but it is a dangerous road to go down.
All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.
Creative story, but... you call ME biased?
As for the topic, it was intended at least by Guilliman that his Astartes would work as rulers and statesmen once the Great Crusade was over. It's not a thing in 40k though. There are yet wars to be fought.
Astartes are faster, tougher, stronger and mentally superior to mortal men. However, they are needed in the field, not back with the people.
Hey, maybe I embellished the details a little, but the facts are there: The Admech, four chapters of Marines and a human crusade failed to invade the Ecclesiastical Palace until the defenders surrendered and let them for reasons completely unrelated to the siege.
Once upon a time in M.36, a very bad man by the name of Goge Vandire took over the Imperium.
He enslaved women, taxed planets to death, and hurt a lot of people.
The Adeptus Mechanicus didn't like this very much, so they went on an epic quest to bring the famous hero, Sebastian Thor and his billions-strong army of heroic soldiers to help them, but even the great Confederation of Light wasn't powerful enough to break through Vandire's Terran defences. So they went and begged the Space Marines for help.
The Ultramarines said: "It's not my problem, I have a war in Maccrage to fight."
The Salamanders said: "It's not my problem, I have civilians to save."
The Space Wolves said: "Haha, those idiots, have fun. Not my problem, have a drink." (and then they got drunk, which is why alcohol is bad).
And so it went, until they came to the Imperial Fists. The Setinels of Terra new their duty, and came to help. They brought their friends with them, three other full chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Black Templars, largest and most fanatical of the chapters. The Fire Hawks, cursed by ill-luck and dedicated to the defence of the realm. The Soul Drinkers, heroic warriors used to close-quarters and bloody fights.
These four great chapters of the magnificent Space Marines, alloyed with the heroic Confederation of Light, an army billions strong, and the technologically advanced Adeptus Mechanicus layed siege to the Ecclesiastical Palace on Terra. The seat of Imperial power... and they failed.
Vandire's fortress stood fast against their might. The greatest minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus could not figure a way in. The most brilliant siegemasters of the Adeptus Astartes could not force entry. The teeming hordes of human heroes could not stop Vandire's guns.
The one day, the shooting stopped. The doors to the palace opened, and a girl walked out. Armoured, and wielding a silver-bladed power sword, she held high the head of the villainous Vandire.
The armies parted before her, and she marched between them to the command post where the invading forces planned their losing war. Behind her came the palace's defenders, all three thousand who yet lived. Women, some as young as thirteen, in battle-proud armour.
"I," the woman announced to the waiting leaders of the attacking force, "am Alicia Dominica. I hereby offer the unconditional surrender of the Ecclesiastical Palace, and present to you the head of the arch-traitor, Goge Vandire."
All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.
I guess they forgot they could drop an asteroid on the palace.
Once upon a time in M.36, a very bad man by the name of Goge Vandire took over the Imperium.
He enslaved women, taxed planets to death, and hurt a lot of people.
The Adeptus Mechanicus didn't like this very much, so they went on an epic quest to bring the famous hero, Sebastian Thor and his billions-strong army of heroic soldiers to help them, but even the great Confederation of Light wasn't powerful enough to break through Vandire's Terran defences. So they went and begged the Space Marines for help.
The Ultramarines said: "It's not my problem, I have a war in Maccrage to fight."
The Salamanders said: "It's not my problem, I have civilians to save."
The Space Wolves said: "Haha, those idiots, have fun. Not my problem, have a drink." (and then they got drunk, which is why alcohol is bad).
And so it went, until they came to the Imperial Fists. The Setinels of Terra new their duty, and came to help. They brought their friends with them, three other full chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Black Templars, largest and most fanatical of the chapters. The Fire Hawks, cursed by ill-luck and dedicated to the defence of the realm. The Soul Drinkers, heroic warriors used to close-quarters and bloody fights.
These four great chapters of the magnificent Space Marines, alloyed with the heroic Confederation of Light, an army billions strong, and the technologically advanced Adeptus Mechanicus layed siege to the Ecclesiastical Palace on Terra. The seat of Imperial power... and they failed.
Vandire's fortress stood fast against their might. The greatest minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus could not figure a way in. The most brilliant siegemasters of the Adeptus Astartes could not force entry. The teeming hordes of human heroes could not stop Vandire's guns.
The one day, the shooting stopped. The doors to the palace opened, and a girl walked out. Armoured, and wielding a silver-bladed power sword, she held high the head of the villainous Vandire.
The armies parted before her, and she marched between them to the command post where the invading forces planned their losing war. Behind her came the palace's defenders, all three thousand who yet lived. Women, some as young as thirteen, in battle-proud armour.
"I," the woman announced to the waiting leaders of the attacking force, "am Alicia Dominica. I hereby offer the unconditional surrender of the Ecclesiastical Palace, and present to you the head of the arch-traitor, Goge Vandire."
All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.
The Imperial Fists have a history of failure and relying on other Chapters and Legions to get things done.
Once a upon a time, 9 Space Marine Legions finally recognised the true gods. They rebelled, sliced up your Emperor pretty good and brought the Empire to its knees. Tzeentch had other plans and the loyalist somehow managed to push the legions back into the Eye of Terror.
After these events Roboute Guilliman divided the loyalists Legions in small ineffective Chapters, so that if one Chapter turns, it wouldn't cripple the Empire. True Story.
Logistically, there just aren't enough loyalist Space Marines to run the entire Imperium. They're too busy fighting the constant threat of xenos/traitors/demons to bother with the bureaucracy of the Imperium.
One thing I've always found interesting about the Space Marines is that they are very much outsiders to the system they are trying to protect. They don't really have much of a place within it. I think space marines don't seem interested in having humanity serve them because there's nothing humanity could offer them that the space marines would really want, anyway. I think the 500 worlds of the Ultramarines are an exception, but that's a unique trait of that particular chapter.
Furyou Miko wrote: Hey, maybe I embellished the details a little, but the facts are there: The Admech, four chapters of Marines and a human crusade failed to invade the Ecclesiastical Palace until the defenders surrendered and let them for reasons completely unrelated to the siege.
I can assure you, if Vandire for some reason had Astartes bodyguards who then turned on him, he would not have fared much better.
Only, they would never have bought his gak to begin with.
master of ordinance wrote: Bloody hell, ladies and gentlemen I present to you the stereotypical Space Marine player and his attitude in the form of the OP.
This is why SM players are looked down on. One of the reasons anyway.
Oh, go away with that attitude. I do not think anyone is interested in hearing how terrible you think SM players are for the 1,000th time, especially not after telling you equally many times how that stereotype is BS.
The SM players you have at your local place are not representative of the world, and you should not see them that way either.
But I suppose understanding that is above the mental capacity of an IG player. =)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Spoiler:
Just kidding, don't worry.
As a side note, I just realised I confuse Swastakowey and Master of Ordinance pretty much constantly.
Look, everyone knows the true masters are the Necrons.
You should all head towards your nearest Bio-transferance station.
The first 1000 "applicants" get a free pet scarab drone.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Look, everyone knows the true masters are the Necrons.
You should all head towards your nearest Bio-transferance station.
The first 1000 "applicants" get a free pet scarab drone.
I would trade my sentience for a pet scarab drone in a heartbeat.
To the OP: You kept using Übermensch, I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Astartes are faster, tougher, stronger and mentally superior to mortal men. However, they are needed in the field, not back with the people.
That's the whole point. Astartes have better things to do than waste their time lording over the rest of humanity. That's why the administrata of the Imperium exists. What glory is there in being an administrator? The Astartes have a very simple deal with the rest of the Imperium: Don't get in our way, protect our geneseed tithe, push us arms and munitions, and we will destroy the xeno and heretic threats to humanity the IG can't handle.
OP: I'm surprised nobody called you on your incorrect description of Starship Troopers. The government described is nationalist, but not a socialist dictatorship. The premise is based on the franchise is not valued if it is not earned, and those who earn it based upon service to the group will vote, and therefore govern, in the best interest of the group rather than themselves. There's nothing "dictatorship" about it. The 40K Imperium has nothing in common with the ST universe. Even the military is not comparable to the IG, since there are no conscripts and no Commisars. There's no Ecclisiarchy (RAH detested organized religeon). The only thing genetically modified are dogs. You can't even compare the ST Mobile Infantry to the Astartes, since the ST humans are just highly trained, and then, only at the age of majority and voluntarily. You could compare MI suits to power armor w/ jump packs. You might, if you stretch it, compare the bugs to nids. That's about it.
Theolla wrote: I think space marines don't seem interested in having humanity serve them because there's nothing humanity could offer them that the space marines would really want, anyway.
Except for recruits. Without normal humans to test for compatibility and make marines of there's no new Space Marines.
Some Chapters undoubtedly think like the OP, having nothing but contempt for baseline humans. But even they have to acknowledge the need to preserve humanity.
saithor wrote: Read some David Weber and John Ringo, they actually do tend to pay more attention to logistics and the mechanics then others. Maybe a little too much, but I like that kind of stuff.
David Weber is one of the worst authors I have ever read. He made up physics so space battles would mirror Napoleonic ship battles. I wouldn't trust him to teach an 8th grade science class.
Weber did not make up any space physics, all of his battles follow Newtonian physics. The fictional technology he added are reasonable given our own current understanding on how gravity and relativity works. His earlier novels referred to these issues on a tactical level, while his later novels dealt more with strategic and logistic issues. However, no one here can help you understand that, as it does involve some basic knowledge in physics to grasp why his battle scenes are fundamentally correct. Weber use to write background material for the Starfleet Battles table top war game.
Ringo also has a very good grasp on relativistic warfare, as seen in his Troy Rising series, which paints a pretty good picture on what the Imperium does wrong. His Legacy of Aldenata series shows the practicalities of power armored warfare, and the problems of integrating with combined arms warfare.
As to Astartes and their ability to rule over humans, Astartes are humans. They are born to human mothers (when not cloned), have human fathers (occasionally Eldar fathers, but that's another thread), and are augmented with biological and cybernetic implants. Astartes are unable to procreate more Astartes, because any children they might father would be human, not Astartes. In fact, what makes them Astartes can best be compared to a parasitic or viral infection that must be implanted in order to produce a seed that needs further growth before being re-implanted in a new host. To say that Astartes have any right to rule is to say that a parasite growing in your body has the right to rule (toxoplasmosis).
So no, Astartes should not inherently rules humanity. However, if humans decide to uplift their leaders to transhumance via becoming Astartes in order to maintain a stable governance, that would be a human decision, not an Astartes decision.
saithor wrote: Read some David Weber and John Ringo, they actually do tend to pay more attention to logistics and the mechanics then others. Maybe a little too much, but I like that kind of stuff.
David Weber is one of the worst authors I have ever read. He made up physics so space battles would mirror Napoleonic ship battles. I wouldn't trust him to teach an 8th grade science class.
Weber did not make up any space physics, all of his battles follow Newtonian physics. The fictional technology he added are reasonable given our own current understanding on how gravity and relativity works. His earlier novels referred to these issues on a tactical level, while his later novels dealt more with strategic and logistic issues. However, no one here can help you understand that, as it does involve some basic knowledge in physics to grasp why his battle scenes are fundamentally correct. Weber use to write background material for the Starfleet Battles table top war game.
Ringo also has a very good grasp on relativistic warfare, as seen in his Troy Rising series, which paints a pretty good picture on what the Imperium does wrong. His Legacy of Aldenata series shows the practicalities of power armored warfare, and the problems of integrating with combined arms warfare.
As to Astartes and their ability to rule over humans, Astartes are humans. They are born to human mothers (when not cloned), have human fathers (occasionally Eldar fathers, but that's another thread), and are augmented with biological and cybernetic implants. Astartes are unable to procreate more Astartes, because any children they might father would be human, not Astartes. In fact, what makes them Astartes can best be compared to a parasitic or viral infection that must be implanted in order to produce a seed that needs further growth before being re-implanted in a new host. To say that Astartes have any right to rule is to say that a parasite growing in your body has the right to rule (toxoplasmosis).
So no, Astartes should not inherently rules humanity. However, if humans decide to uplift their leaders to transhumance via becoming Astartes in order to maintain a stable governance, that would be a human decision, not an Astartes decision.
SJ
"The fictional technology he added are reasonable given our own current understanding on how gravity and relativity works"
We'll agree to disagree. He's terrible and awful at science.
The Greater Good welcomes you all into its folds since your average Space Marine player thinks themselves superior to their own subjects.
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
We'll find a way to make use of all of you. No matter how great or lesser you might be. No matter the Xeno race. Will it be glamorous? Nope. Better than Mr. Ubermensch over there.
According to 40K lore, The Emperor is actually the epitome of human perfection. His sons (the Primarchs) are the next closest thing. The Astartes (Space Marines and Terminators) are the next best thing after the Primarchs.
If we are talking the epitome of human perfection, The Emperor has already forced humanity to serve him. That said, he was *very much* against people worshiping him at all.
If we are talking about the Astartes, then no. The expeditions that set out to make humanity serve The Emperor (become compliant), and by extension, them is what eventually lead to the Horus Heresy.
They should definitely be servants and not be served to make sure things don't get out of hand again.
Theolla wrote: I think space marines don't seem interested in having humanity serve them because there's nothing humanity could offer them that the space marines would really want, anyway.
Except for recruits. Without normal humans to test for compatibility and make marines of there's no new Space Marines.
Some Chapters undoubtedly think like the OP, having nothing but contempt for baseline humans. But even they have to acknowledge the need to preserve humanity.
Well, there's a difference between humans and humanity. Humans, you can look at individuals, cities, planets or even whole systems. Thus, trillions of humans are nothing compared to the defense of humanity. So, it's not like Astartes look down on humans. They just realize that humans are disposable, even by the planet-load.
There comes a moment after a person is made into Astartes he realises that he is a superior being to humans.
Superior beings shouldn't take orders from his inferiors. They should be the ones ruling over them. Imagine if an talking ant gave you orders. You would probably crush it.
Replace the High Lords (after disposing of them) with say Helbrecht or Magnus Calgar as an absolute dictatorship. One supermen to rule all mere humans. The codex astartes no longer should be applied.
People keep saying there are too few space marines but after a quick strike rebellion by say loyalist chapters all working together and overthrowning the human government on Terra through drop pod assaults they could force more space marines by forcing more humans into them and indoctrinating them.
Then it would be a society of supermen and slaves. Citizens and 2nd or 3rd class citizens.
DorianGray wrote: There comes a moment after a person is made into Astartes he realises that he is a superior being to humans.
In terms of physical ability? Sure. In terms of mental abilities, intelligence, education, etc? Not necessarily.
Superior beings shouldn't take orders from his inferiors. They should be the ones ruling over them. Imagine if an talking ant gave you orders. You would probably crush it.
The gulf between human and Space Marine is not what a human is to an Ant. Likewise, if my function is some sort of logistical function, well, maybe the Ant knows a thing or two I don't
A Space Marine being stronger, faster, tougher, etc has no bearing on their ability to command, or, more importantly, rule.
In most instances, Space Marines make for very poor rulers. Most loyalist chapters command backwards, feudal worlds that barely sustain themselves and the Chapters are sustained by outside resource delivery and the AdMech. When Space Marines run off on their own and "rule", it's almost without except as pirates and warlords.
Replace the High Lords (after disposing of them) with say Helbrecht or Magnus Calgar as an absolute dictatorship. One supermen to rule all mere humans. The codex astartes no longer should be applied.
Why? What do Helbrecht and Calgar have in the "ruling an empire" department that the High Lords don't? I can think of a lot the High Lords would have that the Space Marines would not.
People keep saying there are too few space marines but after a quick strike rebellion by say loyalist chapters all working together and overthrowning the human government on Terra through drop pod assaults they could force more space marines by forcing more humans into them and indoctrinating them.
And yet every time Terra has been attacked by Space Marines, their attacks failed. They've never been successful in such before.
Then it would be a society of supermen and slaves. Citizens and 2nd or 3rd class citizens.
That's what the Imperium already is...
Let's not forget that the High Lords are no normal humans either, often with extensive genetic & cybernetic modifications of their own, centuries of experience, vast resources, and their own impressive combatants.
Besides, Space Marines aren't even the epitome of advancement. Imperial Assassins are, man for man, far more dangerous, capable, and powerful than even a Space Marine. The Adeptus Custodes even moreso. If we're going by sheer physical power here, why not have them rule over the Space Marines?
Some individual high-ranking Marines might be fit for these sort of leading roles but they'd be the exceptions, not the rule. Not to mention I suspect that if Marines are better than the High Lords at their job it's more likely because the latter suck at their job than anything else.
DorianGray wrote: Replace the High Lords (after disposing of them) with say Helbrecht or Magnus Calgar as an absolute dictatorship. One supermen to rule all mere humans. The codex astartes no longer should be applied.
Then it would be a society of supermen and slaves. Citizens and 2nd or 3rd class citizens.
I don't have to explain why this is bad, do I?
Nevertheless I'm starting to suspect that this some elaborate way for Dorian to share his fantasy of being dominated by large bald men. I don't necessarily object (even if it's not my kind of thing), but it could do with being a lot less Nazi-ish in that case.
No. Space Marines do not understand humanity well enough to rule effectively. They can't. So many aspects of the human life are closed off to them.
Space Marines do not know what it is like to be small and terrified human beings, with only the light of the Emperor to see by in this dark galaxy of sin.
The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.
Las wrote: The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.
Space battles are not really a big deal in the 40k universe. That's why Space Marines are so important and powerful. Most of the important decisive events and battles happen on the ground. The Navy can't do gak against Space Marines on the ground.
Las wrote: The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.
Space battles are not really a big deal in the 40k universe. That's why Space Marines are so important and powerful. Most of the important decisive events and battles happen on the ground. The Navy can't do gak against Space Marines on the ground.
Power fist, meet exterminatus.
The space marines' chief function is lightning assault from low orbit. Their fleets are purposefully small, under armoured and meant to be escorted by the IN to ensure that if a chapter goes rogue they pose no significant threat to the imperium. It would be a duck hunt.
There's what, maybe 250,000 marines in the entire imperium? You don't even have to physically fight any of them. Blow up their fleets and strand them on quarantined worlds while they angrily wave their swords at the sky.
Las wrote: The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.
Space battles are not really a big deal in the 40k universe. That's why Space Marines are so important and powerful. Most of the important decisive events and battles happen on the ground. The Navy can't do gak against Space Marines on the ground.
Space battles are a big deal, they're just not typically covered by most fluff because the big selling tabletop game doesn't concern it.
The Imperial Navy can very much "do gak" against Space Marines on the ground. They can deliver ground troops, fly attack aircraft (all those Thunderbirds, Valkyries, Lightnings, Marauder Bombers, etc belong to the Imperial Navy), and bombard planets with weapons more powerful than even those the Space Marines have access to, such as Nova Cannon.
chaosmarauder wrote:As a chaos player I voted YES...because that is exactly what CSM are trying to do.
Codex Astartes and splitting of the legions into chapters was meant to prevent this exact thing.
Ironically, it does appear that most of the "yes" votes are from Chaos players.
All hail the OP's master of humanity: Ezekyle Abaddon!
Melissia wrote:No. Space Marines do not understand humanity well enough to rule effectively. They can't. So many aspects of the human life are closed off to them.
Space Marines do not know what it is like to be small and terrified human beings, with only the light of the Emperor to see by in this dark galaxy of sin.
You do have a point. Loyalist marines are too entrenched into their chapter cults and regimented discipline to understand humans. Some Chaos Marines probably hold views similar to the OP's, seeing normal humans as expendable fodder and slaves. Ultimately, only the Chaos Gods truly understand humanity.
chaosmarauder wrote:As a chaos player I voted YES...because that is exactly what CSM are trying to do.
Codex Astartes and splitting of the legions into chapters was meant to prevent this exact thing.
Ironically, it does appear that most of the "yes" votes are from Chaos players.
All hail the OP's master of humanity: Ezekyle Abaddon!
Melissia wrote:No. Space Marines do not understand humanity well enough to rule effectively. They can't. So many aspects of the human life are closed off to them.
Space Marines do not know what it is like to be small and terrified human beings, with only the light of the Emperor to see by in this dark galaxy of sin.
You do have a point. Loyalist marines are too entrenched into their chapter cults and regimented discipline to understand humans. Some Chaos Marines probably hold views similar to the OP's, seeing normal humans as expendable fodder and slaves. Ultimately, only the Chaos Gods truly understand humanity.
The Chaos Gods understand humanity even less than Space Marines do.
Melissia wrote: The Chaos Gods understand humanity even less than Space Marines do.
Foolish Loyalist! Only a dog of the corpse emperor could be so ignorant!
The Chaos Gods are made up of the thoughts, actions, and desires of every sentient species in the galaxy (barring Tau, because Tau are too few and too ignorant of the warp to matter). As humanity is the most populous sentient life form, the majority of the "fuel" for the Chaos Gods comes from humanity.
Individually, the Chaos Gods don't understand humanity as a whole. What they do understand are human emotions and concepts. Honor, hatred, sympathy, fear, ambition, knowledge, desire, sexuality, and more are some of the most important aspects of being human, and what separates humans from animals. You can't condition this out of humans, as Space Marines have repeatedly proven.
While the Chaos Gods don't have humanity's best interests at heart, they are a lot more understanding of the human condition than the Imperial Creed. Why do you think people fall to Chaos in the first place? The Imperium offer nothing in the way of freedom and stifles the individual at the expense of a whole that is massive beyond comprehension. Chaos is for many the only way out of an oppressive system into one that at least offers some hope of power and reward both in this life and in the immaterium.
But enough about Chaos. It has been pointed out that the OP holds beliefs suspiciously similar to those of the traitorous servants of the Great Enemy. Methinks he's about to get a visit from the freindly neighborhood inquisitor.
Quick, to the Eye of Terror! The emperor's lapdogs don't dare follow us there!
Melissia wrote: The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.
Beings created from the mental energies and desires of mortal creatures in a literal netherworld of the mind, where dreams and nightmares are made physical reality
While each Chaos God may only understand a limited slice of the human experience, they are the total embodiment of that aspect, and taken together, they understand humanity very well. There's a reason Chaos is the greatest threat, and why so many, including Space Marines, fall to its power.
Melissia wrote: The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.
Beings created from the mental energies and desires of mortal creatures in a literal netherworld of the mind
Not really. Slaanesh was created by the Eldar literally fething themselves too hard. The other three were born during the War in Heaven, which took place between Eldar/Orks/Old Ones and the Necron/C'tan. They were not created by human emotion. They feed upon strong human emotions that are similar to those which created them, but that does not mean they understand humans.
But this is getting off topic. Like I said, Space Marines are inherently unqualified to rule humanity well, as they are built and trained not to understand the human condition. Unless you wish them to no longer know no fear?
Las wrote: The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.
Space battles are not really a big deal in the 40k universe. That's why Space Marines are so important and powerful. Most of the important decisive events and battles happen on the ground. The Navy can't do gak against Space Marines on the ground.
Wrong. They can. The reason why the Navy just doesn't blow the crap out of everything is because there's no point in taking a world that's been reduced to ash. However, the High Lords will remember the heresy, and will certainly authorize the Navy to throw everything they've got at the traitors. A few dead world is a small price to pay, to prevent another Astartes uprising.
DorianGray wrote: Space Marines ARE made smarter, faster, and stronger than the normal humans.
Normal humans are obsolete and like monkeys. It is not some ironic recreation of the war in heaven.
If you were an Astartes it is NATURAL to think why should superior beings like yourself take orders from some human (like some Navy Admiral or Guard General). No one enjoys taking orders from inferiors. The adeptus astartes are bascially immortal GODs in the fluff compared to normal humans. They should be the ones in power over everyone. Everyone should submit to their will.
They don't even have an armored vehicle with an AV of 14 (probably even 13)!
Land Raiders, Vindicators + Siege Shields (Who doesn't take it?), Caestus Assault Ram, Ironclad/Siege Dreadnoughts...
I dont even think the AV of any of those has changed at all, certainly those I just listed are all at least Front AV 13.
BUY YOUR BOOKS, DO YOUR REASEARCH, GIT GUD.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also we have a REALLY bad Tyranid problem.
CrashGordon94 wrote:
Nevertheless I'm starting to suspect that this some elaborate way for Dorian to share his fantasy of being dominated by large bald men. I don't necessarily object (even if it's not my kind of thing), but it could do with being a lot less Nazi-ish in that case.
Like I pointed out earlier, have you not read The Picture of Dorian Gray? :p
Las wrote:
There's what, maybe 250,000 marines in the entire imperium? You don't even have to physically fight any of them. Blow up their fleets and strand them on quarantined worlds while they angrily wave their swords at the sky.
One million give or take casualty and recruitment variables, but yes.
Melissia wrote:Not really. Slaanesh was created by the Eldar literally fething themselves too hard.
Feth is one of the Tanith tree gods, not a... a euphamism for that! (autocensor, I know, but :p)
But this is getting off topic. Like I said, Space Marines are inherently unqualified to rule humanity well, as they are built and trained not to understand the human condition. Unless you wish them to no longer know no fear?
Many rulers in the history of mankind had no understanding of the human condition... George IV, for example... and many who did understand it all to well were some of the worst rulers in history (Nicholai II I am looking at you).
ChazSexington wrote: Having emotionally stunted weaponised sociopaths as dictators is NOT a good idea.
Some deweaponised ones might be helpful though. Those who do well in big business are those who discard any care for their subordinates' wellbeing beyond that which is logical to preserve for the sake of maintaining productivity.
The only Astartes I'd say could possibly "rule humanity" are the Primarchs - and even then, only a few of them. And they're not available. This is, without a shadow of a doubt, the dumbest fluff idea I have ever read.
Melissia wrote: The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.
What? The whole entire Imperium is committed to shackling humanity to an ideal that nobody, except for a remaining SW dread, has seen for 10,000 years. Planets, Astartes Chapters, even history itself is expunged on a whim to meet the needs of perpetrating that ideal.
The Chaos Gods are human reality, distilled down to the purest form.
ChazSexington wrote: Having emotionally stunted weaponised sociopaths as dictators is NOT a good idea.
Some deweaponised ones might be helpful though. Those who do well in big business are those who discard any care for their subordinates' wellbeing beyond that which is logical to preserve for the sake of maintaining productivity.
What? The whole entire Imperium is committed to shackling humanity to an ideal that nobody, except for a remaining SW dread, has seen for 10,000 years. Planets, Astartes Chapters, even history itself is expunged on a whim to meet the needs of perpetrating that ideal.
The Chaos Gods are human reality, distilled down to the purest form.
Not really. Can you imagine - put yourself in the shoes - of a two-dimensional existence? Can you truly comprehend what it would be like living with no 'up' or 'down', only 'left', 'right', 'forwards' and 'back'?
Now try limiting that eve further. Can you imagine yourself in a world where there is only 'forward' and 'back'? Where the very concept of 'beside' is as impossible as time travel is to us?
That's what it's like for the Chaos Gods to try and understand humans.
What? The whole entire Imperium is committed to shackling humanity to an ideal that nobody, except for a remaining SW dread, has seen for 10,000 years. Planets, Astartes Chapters, even history itself is expunged on a whim to meet the needs of perpetrating that ideal.
The Chaos Gods are human reality, distilled down to the purest form.
Not really. Can you imagine - put yourself in the shoes - of a two-dimensional existence? Can you truly comprehend what it would be like living with no 'up' or 'down', only 'left', 'right', 'forwards' and 'back'?
Now try limiting that eve further. Can you imagine yourself in a world where there is only 'forward' and 'back'? Where the very concept of 'beside' is as impossible as time travel is to us?
That's what it's like for the Chaos Gods to try and understand humans.
The Chaos Gods don't have to understand humans...they represent humanity at the base level of the sentience that sustains them. They are the essence of humanity.
CrashGordon94 wrote:
Nevertheless I'm starting to suspect that this some elaborate way for Dorian to share his fantasy of being dominated by large bald men. I don't necessarily object (even if it's not my kind of thing), but it could do with being a lot less Nazi-ish in that case.
Like I pointed out earlier, have you not read The Picture of Dorian Gray? :p
.
Who wouldn't want to be dominated by Indrick Boreale and his sexay voice? "The codex astartes calls this maneuver steel rehn..."
The notion of humanity bending their knee to the marines sounds entirely compatible with Horus's goals during the Heresy.
Had the traitor legions succeeded and held Terra, we can assume a future where regular humanity is enslaved to their Astartes masters, which increasingly would look more and more like your average demon world.
In the modern timeline, the Imperium has taken great steps to ensure exactly this does not happen - the Astartes are limited in number to comparatively minute chapters, such that ambitions like these among one chapter or family of chapters can be contained by naval, guard, Ad Mech, and other Astartes.
However, there are two possibilities to play with:
First, nothing in the fluff makes me think the Imperium would care if an individual chapter treated humans on their own chapter worlds in this fashion. So long as adequate defenses are maintained, and tithing proceeds in an orderly fashion, the Inquisition would likely turn a blind eye to it until it descended into something darker. They already ignore blood-thirsty marines, marines who degenerate into wolves, and marines who keep little short guys in robes in their dark places, so a little "worship us, humans!" doesn't strike me as bothering them.
Second, far more horrifying to the Inquisition and the high lords, would be the heretical notion of female space marines. Sure, we debate if they could or could not exist for days on forums like these, but imagine if the Space Marines were not a race that had to be created, but one that could reproduce normally as humanity does, without the corruption of chaos. If this were to become possible, through modification of the geneseed or other technomagical explanation, you would have two separate species, and the Marine's reliance on the crude process currently used to create marines would be at an end. Loyalty would be hard to maintain, if protection of normal humanities families conflicted with protection of their own.
^Given that what makes Marines Marines is a manual bio-mod rather than anything genetic, it would seem that if a male Marine and female Marine boinked, the offspring would just be an ordinary human.
Whether or not they'd be concerned with mixed-gender Marines making an allied Guard Regiment out of their kids would be another issue.
You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine. Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.
The sheer gap between an Astartes and a normal human is so vast that the latter is like another species. Astartes have zero attachment to normal humanity only the super-humanity deserves to lead. Superman over everyone.
The Astartes should just take over the Imperium today because that is what is right and natural. Think of the modern humans and Neanderthals - we killed them all because they were so ugly. Ideally enslaving them would have been better. Humans should serve the Astartes.
CrashGordon94 wrote:^Given that what makes Marines Marines is a manual bio-mod rather than anything genetic, it would seem that if a male Marine and female Marine boinked, the offspring would just be an ordinary human.
Whether or not they'd be concerned with mixed-gender Marines making an allied Guard Regiment out of their kids would be another issue.
There is genetic manipulation involved in making a Marine - the gene-seed not only provides the code for the implants, it also modifies the body of the recipient to reduce the rate of organ rejection and so on.
DorianGray wrote:You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine. Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.
No. You don't get it. Space Marines are not biologically superior to humans. They are flawed in multiple ways, not the least of which is their inability to reproduce independently.
They are physically superior to humans. Yes. But know something? So were neanderthals. They were stronger, larger, and had more complex brains than humans.
They didn't fail as a species solely because we killed them. They failed as a species because the design, while more powerful, was crippled on efficiency grounds. The difference in how much more food they needed was larger than the difference in how much more food they could acquire.
DorianGray wrote: You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine. Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.
The Astartes are not capable of reproduction. That makes them biological failures.
It doesn't matter how big and tough your species is, if you can't reproduce your race is doomed.
DorianGray wrote: You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine.
You keep saying this, but are ignoring literally every argument that says this is nto true.
Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.
Jawohl Mein Furher!
The sheer gap between an Astartes and a normal human is so vast that the latter is like another species. Astartes have zero attachment to normal humanity only the super-humanity deserves to lead. Superman over everyone.
We've gone over this before, and you refuse to actually address any counter-arguments and instead just re-parrot this statement. Astartes are physically superior to humans, but not mentally.
There is nothing about them that makes them superior rulers. They almost always fail as rulers. Likewise, they're outnumbered unfathamable billions to one by mundane humanity. They're irrelevant.
The Astartes should just take over the Imperium today because that is what is right and natural. Think of the modern humans and Neanderthals - we killed them all because they were so ugly.
Your knowledge of archaeological history regarding Neanderthals is...shockingly bad.
Humans should serve the Astartes.
Aside from "they're able to bench press more", why? In the overwhelmingly vast majority of instances they've had to prove themselves able rulers, they give very poor performances, and you're refusing to address this point.
Melissia wrote: The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.
Beings created from the mental energies and desires of mortal creatures in a literal netherworld of the mind
Not really. Slaanesh was created by the Eldar literally fething themselves too hard. The other three were born during the War in Heaven, which took place between Eldar/Orks/Old Ones and the Necron/C'tan. They were not created by human emotion. They feed upon strong human emotions that are similar to those which created them, but that does not mean they understand humans.
We're talking a nether-realm where time does not hold the same meaning as the material universe, where things can enter said realm at one point in time and return to the material universe at an earlier point in time. In fact, Doombreed, a human warlord, was one of Khorne's first servants, and Khorne was the first Chaos God to awaken fully.
Melissia wrote: Chaos Gods do not represent humanity. You have a very human-centric view of 40k...
In a game written by humans, for humans, where humans are the most represented group with multiple factions, where a human empire is the ruler (albeit badly) of the galaxy?
And it says that without justification . None of the genetic implants the Astartes receive make them smarter than the average human.
As a result, Marines are no smarter than the average educated human.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: We're talking a nether-realm where time does not hold the same meaning as the material universe
No matter how hard the writers try, they've never been able to manage to actually effectively write the Immaterium without cause and effect. The Chaos Gods have a definitive cause, and as a result, they are bound by time.
Melissia wrote: And it says that without justification . None of the genetic implants the Astartes receive make them smarter than the average human.
As a result, Marines are no smarter than the average educated human.
I'm not sure it really needs to be justified. It only needs to be said.
However, I'm of the impression that this mental acuity isn't boosting the marine to genius-levels of intellect, it is merely helping him reorganise his cognitive function into something better which can react and think faster by removing things like redundant memories or emotional responses.
I'd also like to say that I think Marines would make terrible rulers of humanity. How can you have a leader who cannot understand you? The only successful Astartes that could do this in my opinion are the Salamanders (humanitarianism) and Ultramarines (Ultramar is pretty swell this time of year), and neither of them would want to become the supreme leaders of the Imperium.
Even if they were smarter than humanity, what gives them the right and more importantly the ability to somehow overthrow the High Lords and the rest of the established government of the Imperium?
It's wrong, implausible, impossible, and even stupid.
Melissia wrote: And it says that without justification . None of the genetic implants the Astartes receive make them smarter than the average human.
As a result, Marines are no smarter than the average educated human.
I'm not sure it really needs to be justified. It only needs to be said.
This. Not everything has to be spelled out and explained.
The intense hypno-conditioning and the like seems to at least play a role, though. It's possible the brain implants (like the catalepsean node) may be responsible as well - it is after all stated that the organs also have various secondary roles, not all of which are explained.
Read the last sentence of the very first paragraph on the page. This is not something new - it's been repeated in pretty much every SM codex since.
What "Intense indoctrination and conditioning strengthens the recruit's resolve and increases mental capabilities, honing them into dedicated and merciless warriors."?
That's an extremely nebulous statement, giving zero specifics, and purely within the context of "dedication" and being a warrior, and such techniques/equipment/etc are available to non-astartes as well, there's nothing in the Gene-seed that has anything to do with this, none of the Geneseed, anywhere, is described as having any effect on intelligence as far as I can recall.
It doesn't say it makes Space Marines smarter, more intelligent, or wiser. From the Space Wolf trilogy (the only place I remember it going into even minor detail), it basically "educated" them, like taking many years of school and learning, within a few hours, that sort of thing, not actually enhancing their brains in any way.
Vaktathi wrote: We're talking a nether-realm where time does not hold the same meaning as the material universe
No matter how hard the writers try, they've never been able to manage to actually effectively write the Immaterium without cause and effect. The Chaos Gods have a definitive cause, and as a result, they are bound by time.
I would posit that this is more a matter of narrative choice on the part of GW's writers than a fundamental proof that the Chaos Gods are fully bound by the same cause-effect bubble that the material universe is, much like the how they consistently fail to really grasp the size of the galaxy setting that 40k often takes place is, as they wrote the wars for armageddon as some galaxy shattering conflict with fewer imperial guardsmen present than WW1's western front did
Vaktathi wrote: That's an extremely nebulous statement, giving zero specifics, and purely within the context of "dedication" and being a warrior, and such techniques/equipment/etc are available to non-astartes as well, there's nothing in the Gene-seed that has anything to do with this.
That is not what it says. It says 'Marines are physically, mentally, and spiritually superior to any other Imperial soldier.' I do not see how this is difficult to interpret, and it's certainly not ambigious at all. You said they are not mentally superior. GW says they are mentally superior. We're talking simple 'if X then Y, if not X then not Y' logic here, not quantum physics.
Are Marines mentally superior to humans? Vaktathi says no. Games Workshop says yes. Sorry Vak, I'll go with GW on this one.
Furyou Miko wrote: There is genetic manipulation involved in making a Marine - the gene-seed not only provides the code for the implants, it also modifies the body of the recipient to reduce the rate of organ rejection and so on.
Good point.
Still, wouldn't that just mean the hypothetical Marine couple's kids would be normal humans who accept gene-seed implants more easily and have the Chapter's genetic quirks where applicable?
For one, every codex says its army is the best. For two, in the same sentence, it claims Astartes are spiritually superior to humans, except they clearly aren't, as they're quite easily corrupted by the powers of Chaos, as history says-- and other codices contradict it, regardless.
Of the implants:
The secondary heart, ossmodula, biscopea, haemastamen, Larraman's organ, preomnor, multilung, Lyman's ear, Sus-An membrane, melanchromatic organ, oolitic kidney, neuroglotis, mucranoid, betcher's gland, progenoids, and black carapace do not effect the mind at all. Of the remainder, the Catalepsean Node only deals with sleep deprivation, the Omophagea's effects only allow temporary learning of instinctive skills and knowledge of what is eaten, the Occulobe works on eyesight.
The method that marines use to choose their candidates-- which, going off of the Ultramarines as the norm, involves gladiatorial combat-- does not, in any way, choose for intelligence. It chooses for raw fighting capability. Hypnotherapy (which is applicable to all humans, and is commonly used by the Inquisition and other such organizations to quickly train their agents) can only raise them to an educated level according to their natural intelligence, and there is nothing indicative of the method by which astartes choose their candidates that says that they necessarily would prefer a decent fighter who is smart over an excellent fighter who is dumb.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: Are Marines mentally superior to humans? Vaktathi says no. Games Workshop says yes. Sorry Vak, I'll go with GW on this one.
"GW" also says that space marines are so stupid as to forget they're holding their own weapons, and so weak as to lose a wrestling competition with a spore mine.
DorianGray wrote: You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine. Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.
The sheer gap between an Astartes and a normal human is so vast that the latter is like another species. Astartes have zero attachment to normal humanity only the super-humanity deserves to lead. Superman over everyone.
The Astartes should just take over the Imperium today because that is what is right and natural. Think of the modern humans and Neanderthals - we killed them all because they were so ugly. Ideally enslaving them would have been better. Humans should serve the Astartes.
First problem: Space Marines don't have superior genes. They aren't bred to be what they are, they're built. Themselves, they are weapons. Designed and produced to function in a specific role. Governance is not that role.
Second problem: There aren't enough Space Marines to do that, especially once word of what the Marines are about spreads. If there was a Heresy 2.0, with all of the Space Marines aligned against the rest of the Imperium, within the first year, every SM Homeworld would be a drifting cloud of ash. This besides the point of the internecine warfare that would erupt between the Chapters, because there are many that remember that the Emperor did not create them to rule over mankind, and many also that venerate the Emperor as a divinity. So the 1000 Chapters quickly becomes a couple hundred Chapters of badly-mauled survivors limping along in crippled ships who are then faced with the superior numbers of the Imperial Guard, and the superior naval assets of the Imperial Navy... not to mention the fleets of Rogue Traders who, being themselves human, see control by a bunch of meatheads as really bad for business. A few of these RTs, the wealthiest of their kind, are going to be rolling around in some relics from the DAOT, shooting black holes at anyone who pisses them off, teleporting meltabombs into the bridge of target ships, ripping open Warp-gates to throw attacking craft into, and going shimmery-invisible like the Eldar.
Then there's the AdMech fleets, who possess things the rest of Mankind could not even imagine existed.
Third problem: Space Marines don't maintain enough gene-stock to fight a protracted war like this. That's kept by the AdMech. Want to ensure your Chapter can restock after four Companies are lost, geneseed unrecoverable, in a Warp-drive explosion? Ask the AdMech to send you some of your stocked geneseed back. Oh, pissed off the AdMech? You're doomed.
That is not what it says. It says 'Marines are physically, mentally, and spiritually superior to any other Imperial soldier.' I do not see how this is difficult to interpret, and it's certainly not ambigious at all.
This is a rather vague statement, and looking directly at the source that your link lists for that statement, comes from a book where it specifically states "Obviously, Marines vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary in degree - Rick Priestly", and all specifics given are in respect to the speed of reactions and control of senses and memory recall, but not actual intelligence, and at a time when when Marines were known as the "Legiones Astartes", were still T3, had Robots, Mole Mortars, Jet Cycles, and Vortex Grenades were sergeant equipment options, where there was no "Codex Astartes" but rather a "Codex Imperialis", where the Guard still had Beastmen squads & Jetcycles, and where Squats had a full army list.
Indeed, Vaktathi. I actually went through the "Creation of a Space Marine" article in detail and went through each one to see if any enhanced intelligence-- and none of them did.
Melissia wrote: Indeed, Vaktathi. I actually went through the "Creation of a Space Marine" article in detail and went through each one to see if any enhanced intelligence-- and none of them did.
Exactly. There's a lot on reaction speeds, control of senses, training, even memory recall in *some* instances, but nothing that directly enhances intelligence
I've done it several times, but despite the fact that none of the enhancements directly improve intelligence, and that no Marine character has ever been shown displaying genius-level intelligence in any of the books, people still cling to the sentence that they are superior mentally.
There are likely quite a number of smart Astartes individuals, and ones like Techmarines and Librarians would NEED to be brainy based on their specialties.
and I suspect they might be generally above-average since they'd probably need to be propa kunnin' to pull a lot of this off, and with being such elite forces they'd probably be brighter than the average schlub. But that a;lso probably depends on the Chapter.
Furyou Miko wrote: I've done it several times, but despite the fact that none of the enhancements directly improve intelligence, and that no Marine character has ever been shown displaying genius-level intelligence in any of the books, people still cling to the sentence that they are superior mentally.
Perhaps it does not refer to intelligence? Are Space Marines known to suffer from PTSD, nightmares or dementia? The only times I can think of that happening are when the warp is involved. And that messes everyone up.
Or it could just be GW writing gak to make people want to buy their little plastic crack in their little codex, but not bothering to make any of the rest of the lore match up.
Furyou Miko wrote: I've done it several times, but despite the fact that none of the enhancements directly improve intelligence, and that no Marine character has ever been shown displaying genius-level intelligence in any of the books, people still cling to the sentence that they are superior mentally.
It may well be due to chemical treatment rather than a specific implant.
Well, considering that Ultramar, one of the few nice places in the Imperium is run by Space Marines, maybe that would be a good idea.
But of course, that is against the will of the God-Emperor, so no.
Furyou Miko wrote: I've done it several times, but despite the fact that none of the enhancements directly improve intelligence, and that no Marine character has ever been shown displaying genius-level intelligence in any of the books, people still cling to the sentence that they are superior mentally.
It may well be due to chemical treatment rather than a specific implant.
In other words, you're grasping at straws and you really don't know.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron_Captain wrote: Well, considering that Ultramar, one of the few nice places in the Imperium is run by Space Marines, maybe that would be a good idea.
But of course, that is against the will of the God-Emperor, so no.
There's numerous "nice places" run by humans. Imperial worlds are not all poverty-encrusted rustholes. Meanwhile, we only see the ultramarines claim that their place is a nice place to live, so that a rather biased source.
Iron_Captain wrote: Well, considering that Ultramar, one of the few nice places in the Imperium is run by Space Marines, maybe that would be a good idea.
Ultramar being the almost unique singular exception when it comes to Space Marine run places (and curiously seems to violate the tenents of the Codex Astartes), and even then, the Space Marines don't do much in the way of direct ruling (one can't imagine Calgar getting into economic and taxation policies, public health concerns, legal disputes, civil law codes, etc).
I suspect Astartes are not simply superior mentally - they are superior, but only in specific areas.
For example, in the Blood Gorgons, a captured Astartes counts down the five days until he can set his escape plan in motion by counting the heartbeats of his captor. In the Space Wolves omnibus, they display microsecond reaction speeds, something simply impossible without neurological enhancements (again, likely due to chemicals rather than a specific implant). None of this is implausible, albeit it is doubtlessly superhuman. However, it would be of dubious use to a chairman in a council.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: In other words, you're grasping at straws and you really don't know.
No, I just acknowledge that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
We know X is true, we do not know why. Isn't it more rational to assume that X is true but simply as of yet unexplained rather than assuming X somehow actually is false? After all, there is nothing contradicting it. Everything in 40k is not explained. For instance, some Electo-Priests wield staffs. Sometimes, we are told these staffs can drain life energy. How this is done is not explained. The appropriate thing to do here is to acknowledge that we just don't know how, rather than assuming that because it is unexplained, the staffs can't actually do that.
For an example closer to home, look at Celestine. It's not explained how her sword shoots fire. Do we assume that it's non-canon that the sword shoots fire, because it has no obvious way of doing so, or do we just assume it is as of yet unexplained? The Emperor intervenes with a sliver of his psychic power, a tiny flamer is hidden within the blade, or maybe something even more esoteric. We don't know how, we just know if.
DorianGray wrote: You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine. Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.
The sheer gap between an Astartes and a normal human is so vast that the latter is like another species. Astartes have zero attachment to normal humanity only the super-humanity deserves to lead. Superman over everyone.
The Astartes should just take over the Imperium today because that is what is right and natural. Think of the modern humans and Neanderthals - we killed them all because they were so ugly. Ideally enslaving them would have been better. Humans should serve the Astartes.
......Not even sure how to respond to this.......Yeah, I'm done with this thread. You are literally ignoring everything we say in direct response to spout Eugenics garbage at us. Bye!
Ashiraya wrote: See my elaboration. What proof do I need that is more canon than quotes from GW material?
Because GW's own canon says that marines are morons who forget their mission briefings and that they are carrying weapons until it's too late. When GW canon is inherently contradictory, you need more than just a single line in an outdated codex from ages ago.
CrashGordon94 wrote: There are likely quite a number of smart Astartes individuals, and ones like Techmarines and Librarians would NEED to be brainy based on their specialties.
and I suspect they might be generally above-average since they'd probably need to be propa kunnin' to pull a lot of this off, and with being such elite forces they'd probably be brighter than the average schlub. But that a;lso probably depends on the Chapter.
That's really probably about it.
While it is true that the average Space Marine is smarter than the average Imperial Citizen, it bears noting that the average Imperial Citizen is really fething stupid. The Average Imperial Citizen (AIC) is a resident of a culture that extols the virtue of ignorance, is afraid of knowledge and learning in its own sake (because knowing the wrong things can get you killed by the Inquisition or the AdMech, or can drive you mad, depending on source of knowledge, or all of the above) and works a job where rote memorization of tasks is the only training method.
Being above an ignoramus like the AIC is not a particularly noteworthy feat.
No. But I also don't believe that marines are any smarter than the average educated human, as certainly there's no real evidence of that in the lore-- and plenty of evidence of them being stupid.
Evidence outside of goto? Book, page, and quote the paragraph, please.
I suspect there's just an axe being ground here.
I have also quoted my evidence. The Compendium is old but that has no effect on its canonicity - it does not really contradict any newer lore in this context.
You make the claim that Astartes are smarter. I know you're going to just try to explain it all away, but you haven't provided any sources outside of a single line from an outdated book, and by that era's definition, Sisters of Battle hunted Space Marines down and policed them, destroying entire chapters on a regular basis for straying too far.
You're evading my question. First things first. You say they are stupid. Quote book, and page please
Well, it's time for me to pop off, so you have all day and all night to do it.
(AA for your assertion, are you sure it is in the Compendium?)
You're attempting to evade providing evidence for your claim by trying to force everyone else to provide evidence against it. I don't respect that kind of logical fallacy.
Imagine if there was a precedent in the fluff of SM attempting to conquer the Imperium that we could use to help answer this closet neo-nazi's conundrum. Maybe some kind of "heretical" act against the Emperor in the distant past. That sure would help the discussion.
master of ordinance wrote: Bloody hell, ladies and gentlemen I present to you the stereotypical Space Marine player and his attitude in the form of the OP.
This is why SM players are looked down on. One of the reasons anyway.
Oh, go away with that attitude. I do not think anyone is interested in hearing how terrible you think SM players are for the 1,000th time, especially not after telling you equally many times how that stereotype is BS.
The SM players you have at your local place are not representative of the world, and you should not see them that way either.
But I suppose understanding that is above the mental capacity of an IG player. =)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Spoiler:
Just kidding, don't worry.
As a side note, I just realised I confuse Swastakowey and Master of Ordinance pretty much constantly.
Touche good sir
DorianGray wrote: You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine. Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.
The sheer gap between an Astartes and a normal human is so vast that the latter is like another species. Astartes have zero attachment to normal humanity only the super-humanity deserves to lead. Superman over everyone.
The Astartes should just take over the Imperium today because that is what is right and natural. Think of the modern humans and Neanderthals - we killed them all because they were so ugly. Ideally enslaving them would have been better. Humans should serve the Astartes.
Despite the fact that three entire chapters backed up by a legion of Mechanicum laid siege to the Imperial Palace on Terra for over a year and where unable to make ANY headway AT ALL? And said palace was defended by only 4000 mortals within? And the siege only ended because someone inside had the sense to cut the head off the mad senate?
Despite the fact that all in all if the Marines did organise a revolution they would be blasted out of the void because the entire combined might of the Space Marine battlefleets only just equal ONE Imperial segmentum fleet? Despite the fact that they would be put down by orbital bombardments and LEGIONS of Mechanicum and Imperial Guard marching against them on the ground?
And all this is without allowing for internal rivalry and old grudges (of which there are many of both) tearing the alliance apart.
Yeahno, Marines are dead if they try anything like it.
You're attempting to evade providing evidence for your claim by trying to force everyone else to provide evidence against it. I don't respect that kind of logical fallacy.
You misunderstand.
I assert that Marines have intelligence above normal men, and I provide a quote to back up this assertion.
I am told that this is invalid because it is old. (Not true - content does not automatically get retconned because of its age. Many things have stuck with us since 1st edition.)
I am told that this is invalid because the 'creation of a space marine' text does not refer to any implant that increases intelligence. (Proves that the intelligence is not due to an implant, but does not disprove the actual intelligence change - there's far more to making Astartes than opening his gut and stuffing in some organs.)
I am told that this is invalid because Goto has written his Marines as idiotic, although this was not sourced nor was the relevant passage quoted. (If taken as canon, this only proves that at least some Marines in a specific instance acted foolishly - and as was quoted before, 'Astartes vary in intelligence as do other men'. In addition, Goto's dubious track records that defy the rest of the setting leaves his works in doubt.)
There is no grasping of straws here.
Of course, the correct answer to the topic is in the post above mine.
Melissia wrote: The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.
Beings created from the mental energies and desires of mortal creatures in a literal netherworld of the mind
Not really. Slaanesh was created by the Eldar literally fething themselves too hard. The other three were born during the War in Heaven, which took place between Eldar/Orks/Old Ones and the Necron/C'tan. They were not created by human emotion. They feed upon strong human emotions that are similar to those which created them, but that does not mean they understand humans.
But this is getting off topic. Like I said, Space Marines are inherently unqualified to rule humanity well, as they are built and trained not to understand the human condition. Unless you wish them to no longer know no fear?
You are what you eat...just ask the Kroot.
Astartes are not unqualified, they simply a) have better things to do, b) don't want to rule the Imperium and c) only take orders from the Emporer so it's not like humans can overthrow the High Lords and demand a conclave of Astartes take their place. Personally, I think a group which has had all emotions such as fear, hope, greed, avarice purged from them would be entirely suitable. They are the greatest minds, unhampered by base emotion.
Space Marines take orders from the High Lords, too. After all, the High Lords were given their positions by the Emperor, to rule His Imperium. Same way as most modern militaries take orders from their civilian governments.
He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"
Psienesis wrote: He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"
Given his relationship with Russ, I don't think the Emperor would be shocked about the wolves telling the Inquisition to get stuffed.
Psienesis wrote: He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"
Given his relationship with Russ, I don't think the Emperor would be shocked about the wolves telling the Inquisition to get stuffed.
I think the Emperor would be really annoyed that the Wolves decided to raze Prospero, instead of just arresting Magnus. Some puppies are gonna get a divine spankin'!
Psienesis wrote: He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"
Given his relationship with Russ, I don't think the Emperor would be shocked about the wolves telling the Inquisition to get stuffed.
Melissia wrote: The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.
Beings created from the mental energies and desires of mortal creatures in a literal netherworld of the mind
Astartes are not unqualified, they simply a) have better things to do, b) don't want to rule the Imperium and c) only take orders from the Emporer so it's not like humans can overthrow the High Lords and demand a conclave of Astartes take their place. Personally, I think a group which has had all emotions such as fear, hope, greed, avarice purged from them would be entirely suitable. They are the greatest minds, unhampered by base emotion.
This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.
Let's not forget that good old human nature! That gets turned up to 10 as well. I'd rather have the man-children under strict governance thank you. We all know what happened last time the kids got to play unsupervised. Thaaat turned out pretty well right?
Sure Space Marines can be the overlords! Not saying they can't. Its just that you know... Chaos.
This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.
Ok, have you studied the history of Sparta? Sparta did not work the way most people think it did. Sparta worked, for a time, because it was small place of only a few tens of thousands of people, living in a geographically difficult area. Sparta worked as an isolated enclave, occasionally warring with its other, relatively small, neighbors It was unable to grow or advance, and was overtaken by powers that could do these things, eventually losing its political status to a smaller Theban army before ending up as a tourist attraction for the Romans and eventually simply faded away to nothingness.
That form of government didn't work particularly well.
This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.
Dorian... I don't know what distress me the most in your discourse. Your utter ignorance of the 40k background or your dangerous eugenist assertions. Still trying to figure it out...
This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.
Hmmm...
Son, have you ever heard of the bad man called Hitler?
This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.
Dorian... I don't know what distress me the most in your discourse. Your utter ignorance of the 40k background or your dangerous eugenist assertions. Still trying to figure it out...
This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.
Dorian... I don't know what distress me the most in your discourse. Your utter ignorance of the 40k background or your dangerous eugenist assertions. Still trying to figure it out...
The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.
You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.
Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.
Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?
Isn't the IoM already a brutal warrior police state? There's already the imperial tithe, where many worlds must include a percentage of their population (drawn from the Planetary Defense Force, of which there must always be an ample supply) to serve in the Imperial Guard, and it seems you never heard of the judges adeptus arbites.
Also, no culture of any kind? What a riveting setting. Totally not 1 dimensional and uninteresting at all.
DorianGray wrote: The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.
You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.
Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.
Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?
You mean like the current Imperium's culture, where waging war is second only to worshiping the Emperor?
The fact that Eldar have a culture to tie them together makes them stronger, not weaker. It gives them a sense of place within the group while preserving individual identity, which prevents them from falling to Chaos. If anything, the problem Eldar have is that they are too restricted in their Paths, which gives rise to a tendency in a certain group to overindulge. And Harlequin ballets are a lot more dangerous than you seem to imagine.
As Comrade Lenin pointed out, quantity has a quality all its own. There's a reason the best money on who takes over the galaxy is tied between the hordes of Orks, numberless Tyranids, and the innumerable legions and devotees of Chaos.
Athens is more highly regarded than Sparta among thinking types. They had a culture that formed the basis for later Greek and Roman culture, and created the prototype for modern democracy. Sparta may have ruled during the era of the Thirty Tyrants, but Athens regained its independence. Only a crippling plague and the arrival of a certain Macedonian put an end to an independent Athens. Sparta may have been strong in their own little Poloponessus, but they needed allies to conquer Athens. When those allies deserted them. Sparta lost almost all its strength. With the coming of Alexander, Sparta found someone who didn't need to fight them in the typical Greek style of small skirmishes. He just outmaneuvered and overwhelmed Sparta, and made them subordinate to his new Hellenistic monoculture.
DorianGray wrote: The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.
You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.
Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.
Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?
Gaah, you tricked me into coming back with this. For sake of bloody heck, 300 is not an accurate representation of anything! First off, Spartans only made up around 1/4th of the greek forces. Thebes and I think Rhodes each had contingents of troops fighting that each outnumbered the spartans. And "corrupt decadent Athens" won the battle that actually won the war. You want to know why the Spartans were revered? Because someone made a popular movie about them. There are defintely other fighting cultures out there that probably deserve as much attention. How about the Nepalese Gurkhas, who in WW2 snuck into German camps, slit the throats, and came out with the cut-off ears to prove it. And they still do stuff like that today. So enough with the Spartan worship, I doubt they were any better than let's say the Swiss mercenaries of the Medevial periods, English longbowmen, Genevosan Corssbowmen, Soviet Partisans, the before-mentioned Gurkhas, Napeleon's armies. I have more respect for the ragtag russian millitia that fought the Teutonic Knights at the Battle of Lake Peipus. Which is the perfect counter-example to your stupid argument. Some of the best men the Teutonics had to offer, well-armed and armoured, most of them ending up drowned by a bunch of peasants in a lake. To heck with Heavy Armor when me and my twelve friends are dragging you off your horse so I can bury a dagger in your throat.
DorianGray wrote: The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.
You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.
Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.
Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?
Gaah, you tricked me into coming back with this. For sake of bloody heck, 300 is not an accurate representation of anything! First off, Spartans only made up around 1/4th of the greek forces. Thebes and I think Rhodes each had contingents of troops fighting that each outnumbered the spartans. And "corrupt decadent Athens" won the battle that actually won the war. You want to know why the Spartans were revered? Because someone made a popular movie about them. There are defintely other fighting cultures out there that probably deserve as much attention. How about the Nepalese Gurkhas, who in WW2 snuck into German camps, slit the throats, and came out with the cut-off ears to prove it. And they still do stuff like that today. So enough with the Spartan worship, I doubt they were any better than let's say the Swiss mercenaries of the Medevial periods, English longbowmen, Genevosan Corssbowmen, Soviet Partisans, the before-mentioned Gurkhas, Napeleon's armies. I have more respect for the ragtag russian millitia that fought the Teutonic Knights at the Battle of Lake Peipus. Which is the perfect counter-example to your stupid argument. Some of the best men the Teutonics had to offer, well-armed and armoured, most of them ending up drowned by a bunch of peasants in a lake. To heck with Heavy Armor when me and my twelve friends are dragging you off your horse so I can bury a dagger in your throat.
I agree (with everything you just said too) but I will inject what I think made them popular before the movie...
How Sparta was handled during the reign of Alexander. See the Greeks viewed the Macedonians as "lesser Greeks" and to be ruled by them was a great shame. So the Greek cities rallied against them often and their rebellions had to be quelled. All of Greece was conquered except... Sparta. Sparta was not an important city to hold for an empire and while he gave them the opportunity to join the empire (he had like a league of rulers set up as his advisers, as was the Macedonian way) and Sparta was actually seen as bit of a backward place by then. I think they led a revolt (on behalf of other Greeks) that failed. Alexander (and his father too) saw no reason to have them conquered.
However all the reality aside Sparta did something that always guarantees remembrance in history.
Alexander said: ( from memory, have not done classics for years)
If you don't surrender we will destroy your city.
Spartans said:
If
Moments like this tend to be seen as awesome, like the famous "NUTS" in the second world war etc. But yes Sparta is not a hugely amazing place. In fact they tended to keep to themselves a lot from memory. I think this is one of the reasons Sparta is famous.
DorianGray wrote: The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.
Isn't that largely what the Imperium already does...?
You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.
The harlequins who have guarded the Black Library for untold millenia?
Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.
Except..they can't, and they've repeatedly demonstrated such.
Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?
Probably Athens...because it still exists, and is a modern capitol city of a European nation with roughly three million people living around it. Sparta meanwhile...does not really exist. Ancient Sparta basically ceased to exist and the city itself remained largely abandoned for nearly two millenia, and the modern town of Sparti has about 1% of Athen's population, and only goes back to about 1850.
Sparta collapsed because of slave revolts, internal strife, political corruption and the fact that the legendary behavior of Spartans (as depicted in the Zack Snyder film 300) did not actually make it beyond the borders of Sparta. Once they got out and about, Spartans were basically boorish barbarians, far more interested in plunder and rape than actually fighting a war, excepting where the latter lead to more of the former.
And as far as highly-regarded in the modern age? Athens, most definitely. We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.
Psienesis wrote: We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.
But someone only interested in war and battles doesn't necessarily understand that Athens produced all the things needed for him to enjoy life as a citizen in a democracy, including the right to read about ancient battles on the internet. Or maybe he just admires the stoicism and laconic speech of the Spartans without wishing for a state where "true citizens" are soldiers and everyone else is a slave or a female (or even worse, a female slave).
Ofc, if someone REALLY wants old Sparta back ask if they had any health problems as newborn or a child. I took a frightful cold as a newborn child and had to stay in the hospital for two weeks - the Spartans would have thrown me down that well from 300.
Furyou Miko wrote: (Seriously, though, Sappho's poetry was pretty awesome).
I thought she preferred guys from her poetry? or maybe just flexible.............
Spartans definitely preferred men - women were for breeding (and running the country, supervising the slaves (*), commerce and pretty much anything men did not want to do) for the most part as I understand it.
They were always hovering on the brink of rebellion by their massive slave population and once their quite formidable reputation had been lost after Spartans surrendered to Athenian forces they were pretty done. I love the first 300 film and see it as exactly how the Spartans would have described the battle and seen in that light it works wonderfully.
(*) one of the more amusing elements to the 2nd 300 film is all the posturing about Western free men versus decadent Eastern slaver owners, when not only were large numbers of Greeks to be found in the Persian forces - including kings and queens like Artemisia, but Sparta and Athens were hugely dependant on slaves. Artemisia is of course nothing like she is depicted in the film and survives to marry one of the Persian Kings sons - having also cunningly dispatched one of her rival kings in the sea battle (which she advised against participating in) - the Persian King thinks she is great...............
Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?
Just a reminder about 300: Yes it is a film about true events and the Spartans did manage to hold off hundreds times their own numbers. However what everyone forgets is that for every Spartan there where 3 to 4 slave warriors, so in actual fact it was 300 Spartan warriors and 1000+ Slave Warriors holding off the Persians.
Psienesis wrote: We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.
But someone only interested in war and battles doesn't necessarily understand that Athens produced all the things needed for him to enjoy life as a citizen in a democracy, including the right to read about ancient battles on the internet. Or maybe he just admires the stoicism and laconic speech of the Spartans without wishing for a state where "true citizens" are soldiers and everyone else is a slave or a female (or even worse, a female slave).
Ofc, if someone REALLY wants old Sparta back ask if they had any health problems as newborn or a child. I took a frightful cold as a newborn child and had to stay in the hospital for two weeks - the Spartans would have thrown me down that well from 300.
And interestingly enough, Themistocles is really the architect of Greek victory against Persia in that war. Without his foresight of building an immense navy crewed by the democratic citizens of Athens, Greece would be very different now along with the rest of the world I would imagine.
Psienesis wrote: We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.
But someone only interested in war and battles doesn't necessarily understand that Athens produced all the things needed for him to enjoy life as a citizen in a democracy, including the right to read about ancient battles on the internet. Or maybe he just admires the stoicism and laconic speech of the Spartans without wishing for a state where "true citizens" are soldiers and everyone else is a slave or a female (or even worse, a female slave).
Ofc, if someone REALLY wants old Sparta back ask if they had any health problems as newborn or a child. I took a frightful cold as a newborn child and had to stay in the hospital for two weeks - the Spartans would have thrown me down that well from 300.
And interestingly enough, Themistocles is really the architect of Greek victory against Persia in that war. Without his foresight of building an immense navy crewed by the democratic citizens of Athens, Greece would be very different now along with the rest of the world I would imagine.
Yep. The mastermind behind repelling both Persian invasions was an Athenian. Ironically, he ended up working for a Persian king, after getting framed for treason by the Spartans
Furyou Miko wrote: (Seriously, though, Sappho's poetry was pretty awesome).
I thought she preferred guys from her poetry? or maybe just flexible.............
If my memory does not fail me, there is almost no evidence that Sappho was inclined toward same-sex stuff, the only evidence being a poem expressing love for a woman. Based on such evidence, Bob Dylan is gay. And so is Shakespeare. Because both have written the points of view of women.
Again if memory does not fail me, the idea that Sappho was "that kind of" Lesbian is a late-19th-century idea, part of the whole Wilde/Baudelaire decadence thing,
Furyou Miko wrote: (Seriously, though, Sappho's poetry was pretty awesome).
I thought she preferred guys from her poetry? or maybe just flexible.............
If my memory does not fail me, there is almost no evidence that Sappho was inclined toward same-sex stuff, the only evidence being a poem expressing love for a woman. Based on such evidence, Bob Dylan is gay. And so is Shakespeare. Because both have written the points of view of women.
Again if memory does not fail me, the idea that Sappho was "that kind of" Lesbian is a late-19th-century idea, part of the whole Wilde/Baudelaire decadence thing,
Actually, my point there was that her wrote good poetry, and was cool with or without being homosexual.
On the other hand, she wrote several poems about the women she loved, including several outright pornographic ones. She then went on to have a husband, who turned a blind eye to her continued flings with women. She was most likely bisexual, and from the sounds of it, polyamorous as well.
Yep. The mastermind behind repelling both Persian invasions was an Athenian.
Ironically, he ended up working for a Persian king, after getting framed for treason by the Spartans
While he was the victim of a classic frame, Themistocles did not do his cause any good by taking every opportunity to loudly proclaim his status as the true genius of the victory over the Persians. He basically introduced himself as, "Themistocles, the Genius Who Beat the Persians, Remember?"
Also remember that the Spartan King who won the land battle at Platea ended up being walled up inside a temple to starve to death, only to be pulled out just before he died so he wouldn't defile the holy place. So the two men who were key to victory ended being branded traitors (the Spartan with more justification than the Athenian.)
While he was the victim of a classic frame, Themistocles did not do his cause any good by taking every opportunity to loudly proclaim his status as the true genius of the victory over the Persians. He basically introduced himself as, "Themistocles, the Genius Who Beat the Persians, Remember?"
Even Ancient History had its ways of dealing with loudmouthed jerks.
The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.
The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.
And the greatest of them all....
ARE THE ULTRAMARINES!
On a serious note, Dorian is partially right about that. 40K is pretty much about the Space Marines and their many glorious adventures. Though, I would hardly call playing Guard/Eldar being scammed. Leman Russ tanks > Predators.
The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.
DorianGray wrote: If you think about it, how far can a Space Marine run if he has to fuel such a large body? Cattle, Sheep and Goats tend to spend most of their time eating as they move around, it is likely Space Marines need very frequent food breaks. This means they need humans to fuel their "amazing speed" with human farming and produce.
Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.
The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.
Swastakowey wrote: If you think about it, how far can a Space Marine run if he has to fuel such a large body? Cattle, Sheep and Goats tend to spend most of their time eating as they move around, it is likely Space Marines need very frequent food breaks. This means they need humans to fuel their "amazing speed" with human farming and produce.
Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.
And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine (one of the main characters asks why another main character, a BT Reclusiarch, isn't eating at function held before the expedition) unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.
Really, as with everything, different sources say different things.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.
It certainly makes sense that a marine would have trouble keeping his body fueled if he had to eat "normal" food in the midst of battle. He probably needs more nutrients than even strongmen, and those guys often eat 6-7 times a day. Each meal enough to support you and me for the whole day or a bit more.
I don't doubt this has been covered before but even so;
"Space Marines are superior to humans"
A superior species that can't breed on its own, is notably stubborn and single-minded when it comes to their duty as the Imperium's shock troops and is generally represented as tiny, isolated units which more often than not vie against each other to be "the best?"
A superior species that is almost totally reliant on mere humans to train specific members of its organisation in even the most basic technological procedures? A species that, by and large, takes a backseat to "ordinary" humans in almost every war the Imperium has ever prosecuted, because when you need a planet won or an enemy smashed beyond all recovery there's no better tool than the Imperial Guard to do it with?
A superior species that once ACTUALLY TRIED THIS and completely failed to achieve dominance of the empire it was trying to take over, for the very reasons stated above and in other people's posts?
Sure, bruh. I bet the Imperium would be a wonderland with everyone's favourite science projects in charge.
Once upon a time in M.36, a very bad man by the name of Goge Vandire took over the Imperium.
He enslaved women, taxed planets to death, and hurt a lot of people.
The Adeptus Mechanicus didn't like this very much, so they went on an epic quest to bring the famous hero, Sebastian Thor and his billions-strong army of heroic soldiers to help them, but even the great Confederation of Light wasn't powerful enough to break through Vandire's Terran defences. So they went and begged the Space Marines for help.
The Ultramarines said: "It's not my problem, I have a war in Maccrage to fight."
The Salamanders said: "It's not my problem, I have civilians to save."
The Space Wolves said: "Haha, those idiots, have fun. Not my problem, have a drink." (and then they got drunk, which is why alcohol is bad).
And so it went, until they came to the Imperial Fists. The Setinels of Terra new their duty, and came to help. They brought their friends with them, three other full chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Black Templars, largest and most fanatical of the chapters. The Fire Hawks, cursed by ill-luck and dedicated to the defence of the realm. The Soul Drinkers, heroic warriors used to close-quarters and bloody fights.
These four great chapters of the magnificent Space Marines, alloyed with the heroic Confederation of Light, an army billions strong, and the technologically advanced Adeptus Mechanicus layed siege to the Ecclesiastical Palace on Terra. The seat of Imperial power... and they failed.
Vandire's fortress stood fast against their might. The greatest minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus could not figure a way in. The most brilliant siegemasters of the Adeptus Astartes could not force entry. The teeming hordes of human heroes could not stop Vandire's guns.
The one day, the shooting stopped. The doors to the palace opened, and a girl walked out. Armoured, and wielding a silver-bladed power sword, she held high the head of the villainous Vandire.
The armies parted before her, and she marched between them to the command post where the invading forces planned their losing war. Behind her came the palace's defenders, all three thousand who yet lived. Women, some as young as thirteen, in battle-proud armour.
"I," the woman announced to the waiting leaders of the attacking force, "am Alicia Dominica. I hereby offer the unconditional surrender of the Ecclesiastical Palace, and present to you the head of the arch-traitor, Goge Vandire."
All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.
So you don't understand the difference between an assassination and a siege.... like at all? Of course the Sister killed Vandire- she was one of his harem girls inside the impenetrable citadel and free to kill him at any time. That's like claiming a concubine is more powerful than the entire army of some princeling because she stabbed the lord of the castle while the army outside camped outside for a year due to lacking raw power to penetrate its walls. Nevermind that a mere three Chapters or more with Mechanicus support would have never breached the Imperial Palace- the palace is the size of a continent, is likely self sufficient, has void shields capable of surviving planetary destruction, and shrugged off the largest FLEET ever assembled against the Imperium by Horus. Not even the arch-traitor managed to breach the shields despite having over a quarter of the Admech's firepower and multiple entire Legions of the Astartes along with the Imperial Army. Although it does beg the question why didn't somebody grow a brain and get a psyker to turn Vandire inside-out.
If I fire .50 BMG at a tank and the round glances off the armor, but then fire a 9x19mm bullet from inside the tank and ventilate the commander's skull, the 9mm round is obviously not stronger than the bullet with greater kinetic energy. Nor is it better. It managed to get the job done thanks to being inside the vehicle itself.
As a Nietzsche Nihilist, the ideal of Übermensch is something to always be sought. But Astartes fail it, as they are mentally bound by their hypnotherapy. They also are not capable of reproducing outside of possibly using in-vitro, but that's not really ideal if the only way to get another generation is via needle.
Now the Mechanicus on the other hand? Therein lies the path to Übermensch. The perfect being, one without the petty binding of morality or emotion, yet having enough logic to prevent sociopathic behavior while also being physically immortal. The final evolution of humanity into the machine itself, maximizing the best advantages of biological and mechanical life while trimming the disadvantages. You can even transfer your consciousness to use a capital ship as your physical avatar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zarjaz! wrote: I don't doubt this has been covered before but even so;
"Space Marines are superior to humans"
A superior species that can't breed on its own, is notably stubborn and single-minded when it comes to their duty as the Imperium's shock troops and is generally represented as tiny, isolated units which more often than not vie against each other to be "the best?"
A superior species that is almost totally reliant on mere humans to train specific members of its organisation in even the most basic technological procedures? A species that, by and large, takes a backseat to "ordinary" humans in almost every war the Imperium has ever prosecuted, because when you need a planet won or an enemy smashed beyond all recovery there's no better tool than the Imperial Guard to do it with?
A superior species that once ACTUALLY TRIED THIS and completely failed to achieve dominance of the empire it was trying to take over, for the very reasons stated above and in other people's posts?
Sure, bruh. I bet the Imperium would be a wonderland with everyone's favourite science projects in charge.
The Horus Heresy failed due to the Loyalists retaining more power and the Horus Heresy in the first place intended to be a failure by the will of the Chaos Gods. Horus was fated to lose and is described as a sacrificial lamb by the daemons. Plus the Primarchs were simply too weak to actually kill the Emperor, or penetrate his fortress. The only reason why the Emperor was injured in the first place was thanks to him leading a charge into the enemy fleet when his void shields should have held out even longer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
XdeadpoolX wrote: Ive been looking in and out of this post for a bit and its got me a little disturbed.
There was once a man who believed there was a genetically superior race and they should rule....
Hitler didn't do so well buddy
And? Hitler was right in that the powerful will survive as the better, stronger party. No different than how humans led to the extinction of mammalian megafauna thanks to us being outright superior.
Unfortunately for Hitler and fortunately for us, he was completely insane and vastly overestimated his strength compared to the majority of the world. Plus the German people are not an actual race, IE sub-species/species, but just an ethnic group, and multiple ones at that. But if there is a legitimately genetically superior race (Homo sapiens superior?) to rise in the future, by natural order it is only right that they would succeed Homo sapiens and lord over the original humans until they eventually die out completely and the new, better, species takes its niche.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
j31c3n wrote: The only Astartes I'd say could possibly "rule humanity" are the Primarchs - and even then, only a few of them. And they're not available. This is, without a shadow of a doubt, the dumbest fluff idea I have ever read.
The Primarchs were what got everybody into this mess into the first place. The only ones really fit for leadership at all was Guilliman and....... Vulkan. Really, that's it. Everybody else was either a whiny man-child like Horus or was wholly dedicated to warfare and almost autistic when it came to running a world like the Lion. I'd much rather have Azrael, Calgar, Kantor, etc as a feudal styled overlord of me than say, Konrad Curze, Khan, Magnus, etc.
TheMisterBold wrote: Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.
And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine (one of the main characters asks why another main character, a BT Reclusiarch, isn't eating at function held before the expedition) unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.
Really, as with everything, different sources say different things.
The actual codices agree with this source more than his source. Space Marines require chemical and hormonal diets to maintain their genetic implants.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: So you don't understand the difference between an assassination and a siege
They couldn't manage to get in to assassinate to begin with, so the difference is irrelevant.
Humans have stopped Space Marines numerous times. Space Marines are not gods unto the battlefield.
TheMisterBold wrote: Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.
And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine (one of the main characters asks why another main character, a BT Reclusiarch, isn't eating at function held before the expedition) unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.
Really, as with everything, different sources say different things.
The actual codices agree with this source more than his source. Space Marines require chemical and hormonal diets to maintain their genetic implants.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: So you don't understand the difference between an assassination and a siege
They couldn't manage to get in to assassinate to begin with, so the difference is irrelevant.
.......The feth? That doesn't even make logical sense. Of course they couldn't get in to assassinate Vandire because of the strongest void shields standing between them and the Imperial Palace that not even the largest Imperial fleet ever assembled managed to break- and to break the void shields on Terra would mean to destroy the planet itself. And again, the sister succeed in the killing because she may very well may have been in BED with Vandire. Or at the very least, inside the strongest void shield ever built. What she did was only impressive in that she broke whatever hypnotherapy they were initially using on the proto-sisters and hacked off the man's head. Not that she managed to kill him, because even a Guardsmen could have managed that so long as he was inside the Palace and had a shot.
Wyzilla, the point of the story wasn't that Alicia killed Vandire.
The point of the story was that the Space Marines couldn't break through the palace defences... and it has nothing to do with void shields, because that kind of void shield, you can literally walk through, they only protect against high-velocity weapon attacks.
Which means that the Space Marines couldn't defeat an entrenched force of Brides.
The modern Sisters of Battle are described as the equals to Space Marines in terms of martial prowess, and the Brides of the Emperor / Daughters of the Emperor were no less badass. In fact, Alicia Dominica apparently led a crusade afterwards that was second only to the Great Crusade in what it gained the Imperium-- through "several centuries" of crusading.
Furyou Miko wrote: Wyzilla, the point of the story wasn't that Alicia killed Vandire.
The point of the story was that the Space Marines couldn't break through the palace defences... and it has nothing to do with void shields, because that kind of void shield, you can literally walk through, they only protect against high-velocity weapon attacks.
Which means that the Space Marines couldn't defeat an entrenched force of Brides.
Uh, you do realize that void shields vary completely and there are indeed types of void shields that completely halt movement of any object, no matter how slow?
Wyzilla wrote: Uh, you do realize that void shields vary completely and there are indeed types of void shields that completely halt movement of any object, no matter how slow?
Vandire had actually let a great deal of the defenses of the Ecclesiarchal Palace fall into ruin. A great many of Vandire's own troops betrayed him, and were found and executed as heretics. The Astartes and Mechanicus had penetrated the defenses enough to contact the Custodes, who were the ones to convince the Sisters of Battle to finish Vandire off and end the Age of Apostasy.
master of ordinance wrote: Has anyone else noted that our Fuhrer OP has not been present for some time?
Perhaps he is planning the rise of his fourth Riech with Space Marines
Which, given this, this and this, it's probably a gay bar filled with burly cosplayers.
Remember, everyone's "beneath" the Space Marine!
On a sidenote, I'm pretty sure the Codex Astartes does not support this action.
On the other hand, she wrote several poems about the women she loved, including several outright pornographic ones..
She didn't. We have very little of what Sappho wrote; most of it is fragmentary, one is a poem written to a woman (which does not mean that it was actually written from Sappho's point of view or that it was sexual love), and none of it is pornographic as far as I can recollect. There is little (no?) evidence that she was a lesbian except in the sense of being from Lesbos.
In this she is like most ancient writers in that we know very little about her. Our "knowledge" is gossip, like our "knowledge" that Heraclitus died in a mound of dung or Empedcles threw himself into a volcano..o
Not meaning to make this into a thread about Greek lit.
master of ordinance wrote: Has anyone else noted that our Fuhrer OP has not been present for some time?
Perhaps he is planning the rise of his fourth Riech with Space Marines
Which, given this, this and this, it's probably a gay bar filled with burly cosplayers.
Remember, everyone's "beneath" the Space Marine!
On a sidenote, I'm pretty sure the Codex Astartes does not support this action.
The.... The..... The image in my head I am not sure whether to laugh or flush brainbleach....
On the other hand, she wrote several poems about the women she loved, including several outright pornographic ones..
She didn't. We have very little of what Sappho wrote; most of it is fragmentary, one is a poem written to a woman (which does not mean that it was actually written from Sappho's point of view or that it was sexual love), and none of it is pornographic as far as I can recollect. There is little (no?) evidence that she was a lesbian except in the sense of being from Lesbos.
In this she is like most ancient writers in that we know very little about her. Our "knowledge" is gossip, like our "knowledge" that Heraclitus died in a mound of dung or Empedcles threw himself into a volcano..o
Not meaning to make this into a thread about Greek lit.
That was what I had read but thought I had missed some bits and pieces somewhere. Wierd how a thread on Space Marine superiroity ends up with discussions on homesexuality oh wait.........
Well after reading through now 8 pages( ) I have come to the only logical conclusion:
Someone needs to make a space marine michael jackson pic so that I can be superior while I sit here and read the comments!
On the other hand, she wrote several poems about the women she loved, including several outright pornographic ones..
She didn't. We have very little of what Sappho wrote; most of it is fragmentary, one is a poem written to a woman (which does not mean that it was actually written from Sappho's point of view or that it was sexual love), and none of it is pornographic as far as I can recollect. There is little (no?) evidence that she was a lesbian except in the sense of being from Lesbos.
In this she is like most ancient writers in that we know very little about her. Our "knowledge" is gossip, like our "knowledge" that Heraclitus died in a mound of dung or Empedcles threw himself into a volcano..o
Not meaning to make this into a thread about Greek lit.
I literally have a little black Penguin book of Sappho's poems, which include one about how she wants to eat out Helen of Troy. So don't give me some crap about how it's maybe not true because we don't have real evidence.
There is conclusive proof of failure.
ARE THE ULTRAMARINES! 
I am not sure whether to laugh or flush brainbleach....