Just curious on this. Taking a look at my Cult Mechanicus codex, I'm having trouble coming up with anything in the world that is actually worse than these piles of abject failure.

Taking a look at the numbers....

Cost: three more than a standard tactical marine. So a relatively elite, CC only unit. What do you get?

-Offensive power? 3 attacks on the charge, WS4, I3, S5 AP4, no grenades... Huh. So, slightly worse than that tactical marine in melee also considering their...

-Durability? T3, W1, 5++, feel no pain. Might as well forget about the fact that they can theoretically get a 3++, the odds of them actually getting to combat and kill it are astronomical, given that they'd be shredded by a first rank fire second rank firing 10 man guardsman squad. So, maybe they're more about the...

-Synergy? Well, there's exactly one independent character in the whole double-Mechanicus codex...thing, and he's hardly a beat stick. And there's no transports at all so they're kinda out of luck in this codex. Maybe...

-Allies? They're imperials, so we can is guess give them a land raider? A 600 plus point unit that fights with all the brazen fury of a ten man assault squad with no special weapons in melee, as long as their victims are not in cover or I4+

So are they actually the worst? I'm not sure. You can bug-pod Pyrovores in now, so they kind of lose out to them. Mutilators have the same ride and at least get 2+ armor. Rough riders are similar but can actually move faster than a snail. Can anyone come up with anything sadder?

They're stronger than Sisters Repentia with a better Save.

Blue scribes. Real bad. Cool model, cool fluff, waste of points. I could also say the changeling, but at least he can copy someone else's cool statline... Minus the weapon they wield, which leaves him stuck at ap-.

Thats all I can think of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One could make the changeling cost 20 points and I still doubt I would see him on the tabletop.

I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

looks almost the same, but with 12" move. And in a Dex with cc synergy, and they have weapon options. I'm not convinced.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

IG Rough Riders? Tau Vespids?

 Psienesis wrote:
They're stronger than Sisters Repentia with a better Save.

Don't repentia have Eviscerators? As in, AP2? And rage and fleet and such?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

looks almost the same, but with 12" move. And in a Dex with cc synergy, and they have weapon options. I'm not convinced.

CC synergy...

Weapon options...

Rough Riders though...ouch. That's rough too...

They don't need grenades, as their voltagheist field allows them to charge into terrain without initiative penalty.

Also, any roll of 6 to wound is considered instant death.

As for synergy, the canticle that gives all cult mechanicus units stealth and shrouding (if you have enough units) should help them survive the initial round(s), the canticle that creates extra auto HITS at initiative 10 should help them once they are in combat, and the canticle that increases their strength by up to 3 should help them hurt things they wouldn't otherwise be expected to. I feel the canticles are the strength of the Cult Mechanicus book, but, unfortunately, the ability to use them has been baked into the point cost of the units (how else do you explain the cost of the Electropriests? And to further illustrate my point, how broken would they be (keeping canticles in mind) if they were 10 or 12pts per model? 18 may be too much, but only by a little.)

I'm not saying they're great, and I doubt I'll be buying a ton of them for my Cult Mechanicum army, but they're not hot garbage.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
They're stronger than Sisters Repentia with a better Save.

Don't repentia have Eviscerators? As in, AP2? And rage and fleet and such?

Yes, but they have to get there, and their Save sucks out loud. AP2 is nice, once they get to swing, but... I3.

 Voidwraith wrote:
They don't need grenades, as their voltagheist field allows them to charge into terrain without initiative penalty.

Also, any roll of 6 to wound is considered instant death.

As for synergy, the canticle that gives all cult mechanicus units stealth and shrouding (if you have enough units) should help them survive the initial round(s), the canticle that creates extra auto HITS at initiative 10 should help them once they are in combat, and the canticle that increases their strength by up to 3 should help them hurt things they wouldn't otherwise be expected to. I feel the canticles are the strength of the Cult Mechanicus book, but, unfortunately, the ability to use them has been baked into the point cost of the units (how else do you explain the cost of the Electropriests? And to further illustrate my point, how broken would they be (keeping canticles in mind) if they were 10 or 12pts per model? 18 may be too much, but only by a little.)

I'm not saying they're great, and I doubt I'll be buying a ton of them for my Cult Mechanicum army, but they're not hot garbage.

This, all this. The fact that they have AP 4 ID on a 6 weapons is pretty sexy, not 18 points sexy, but pretty nice nonetheless. I mean they will go before a unit of Bullgryns and may very well wipe the unit. Also since they run on Invuln saves instead of armor is pretty nice as well, if you can get it to a 3++, which means you need to fina unit of Scout equivalents and paste them, then you can go punch tacticals in the face.

Im not sure how good the Numinous Conclave is, but it looks like fun.

 Psienesis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
They're stronger than Sisters Repentia with a better Save.

Don't repentia have Eviscerators? As in, AP2? And rage and fleet and such?

Yes, but they have to get there, and their Save sucks out loud. AP2 is nice, once they get to swing, but... I3.

Eviscerators are Unwiedly so I1, and Repentia are only viable in a Landraider supported by a Divination Inquisitor and a Priest. Ok maybe you can chuck the Landraider but the Inquisitor and the Priest are pretty much mandatory. The Inquisitor gives them 4++ and the Priest lets them re roll it in melee. Then they are actually threatening.

 Psienesis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
They're stronger than Sisters Repentia with a better Save.

Don't repentia have Eviscerators? As in, AP2? And rage and fleet and such?

Yes, but they have to get there, and their Save sucks out loud. AP2 is nice, once they get to swing, but... I3.

I3? Oh you sillybilly.

Eviscerators are unwieldy, down to I1 for repentia!

I honestly don't think anything can beat out IG rough riders for worst unit

War Kitten wrote:
I honestly don't think anything can beat out IG rough riders for worst unit

Quoted for truth. Even the Krak Grenade on a stick doesnt make them good, if they where cheaper, maybe.

Honestly the priests sound not bad with the canticles.

BTW the i10 free hits one is a great invisibility counter.

Still better than Possessed.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Still better than Possessed.

I agree possessed are crud

With the enhanced shooting in the early rounds the Priests should not be having to charge full units. Charge any unit that has been reduced to two or three models and wipe it out in one round. Then enjoy that 3++.

My first reaction was to say Shining Spears, but then I went back and re-read the entry for Hellions. Those guys are terrible, worse than Mandrakes or Flayed Ones (both of which are better than Shining Spears).

Went back and re-read the OP. Yup. It's official: new worst unit in the game. Consider yourself lucky, Vespids!

We can give the Fulgurite Electropriests this trophy too!

Eviscerators are Unwiedly so I1, and Repentia are only viable in a Landraider supported by a Divination Inquisitor and a Priest. Ok maybe you can chuck the Landraider but the Inquisitor and the Priest are pretty much mandatory. The Inquisitor gives them 4++ and the Priest lets them re roll it in melee. Then they are actually threatening.

I wasn't even going to get into the particulars of how they work (I was also extremely under-caffinated) but, this right here is the problem with Repentia.

Yes, I1 (Unwieldy) and need a lot of extra allies to get down the field in order to wait patiently for their turn to swing those swords. Yes, Martyr's Gift can permit them to score a bucket of post-mortem kills, but then you're out of Repentia.... and spent a fethload of points just getting them to the fight in many cases.

You can drop the allies and try to weather a Turn or Two of shooting (and Overwatch) to get into melee, or hug cover and try to sneak up close before charging (yeah, right...) but, in the end, the deck is stacked very high against Repentia without a lot of investment elsewhere to allow them to close and do their job.

P-y-r-o-v-o-r-e-s.

Aren't they still badly-worded to set the entire battlefield on fire when they die?

From 1d4chan:

The Fulgurites have two things going for them. First, they have a high number of high Strength attacks that can cause Instant Death. This predestinates them for MC hunting and grabbing hold of those multi-wound Infantry units. Nobs and Tyranid Warriors for example happen to be absolutely terrified of the Electroleech Staff. Second, they can buff their Invul Save up to stupid levels by doing what they're best at anyway.
Keep in mind that the chance for these guys to actually wipe a unit rises exponentially the larger your unit is. Sure, 20 of them cost 360 points, but a 20 strong block of 3++ Fearless and Feel no Pain is pretty much impossible to bring down, especially since they are still Imperium and can hide all sorts of nasty Independent Characters.

They are far from the worst unit, and can actually be quite effective if you use them correctly imo.
If you use them to charge a firing line of guardsmen, well, let us just say that is not the smartest of tactics.

The stat line & point cost appeared to be similar to a vet sarge with a power maul. It looks fine, especially when you start adding all the canticles. The Mechanicum doesnt dominate the C&C phase. Oh well. Keep kicking butt in the shooting phase. While your shrouded.

 Red Marine wrote:
The stat line & point cost appeared to be similar to a vet sarge with a power maul. It looks fine, especially when you start adding all the canticles. The Mechanicum doesnt dominate the C&C phase. Oh well. Keep kicking butt in the shooting phase. While your shrouded.

Similar to a Veteran Sergeant with Power Maul, but with significantly less durability and survivability, no grenades, lower initiative, and no way to get into CC. They also have absolutely zero synergy with the rest of the army.

I stand by calling them the worst unit in the game.

 Psienesis wrote:

Eviscerators are Unwiedly so I1, and Repentia are only viable in a Landraider supported by a Divination Inquisitor and a Priest. Ok maybe you can chuck the Landraider but the Inquisitor and the Priest are pretty much mandatory. The Inquisitor gives them 4++ and the Priest lets them re roll it in melee. Then they are actually threatening.

I wasn't even going to get into the particulars of how they work (I was also extremely under-caffinated) but, this right here is the problem with Repentia.

Yes, I1 (Unwieldy) and need a lot of extra allies to get down the field in order to wait patiently for their turn to swing those swords. Yes, Martyr's Gift can permit them to score a bucket of post-mortem kills, but then you're out of Repentia.... and spent a fethload of points just getting them to the fight in many cases.

You can drop the allies and try to weather a Turn or Two of shooting (and Overwatch) to get into melee, or hug cover and try to sneak up close before charging (yeah, right...) but, in the end, the deck is stacked very high against Repentia without a lot of investment elsewhere to allow them to close and do their job.

No more Martyr's Gift, just a once per game 3+ FNP. Repentia are basically worthless, which saddens me. Also Fulgerites arent the worst unit in the game, they have a formation that makes them useful and they make decent allies to punchy armies.

no azreal is the worst hes a lord of war worse than most marine captains -.-

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
The stat line & point cost appeared to be similar to a vet sarge with a power maul. It looks fine, especially when you start adding all the canticles. The Mechanicum doesnt dominate the C&C phase. Oh well. Keep kicking butt in the shooting phase. While your shrouded.

Similar to a Veteran Sergeant with Power Maul, but with significantly less durability and survivability, no grenades, lower initiative, and no way to get into CC. They also have absolutely zero synergy with the rest of the army.

I stand by calling them the worst unit in the game.

Feel free to stand behind your comments. Some of what you believe to be true is totally wrong, but keep on keeping on...

I think the changeling is wayyy worse than that electropriest.
For the points that is.

Hell no I've got you all beat on the worst
unit
It's. ......
Blood crushers

How have Grots not come up? T2, a 12" gun, no upgrades. The only reason Orks take them is to fill up points and to sit in an Aegis.

^cultists have grots beat there

Because Grots come by the bucketload and are dirt-cheap to field. Quantity is a quality all its own.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
^cultists have grots beat there

Cant you make Cultists Fearless?

Yeah if I either take typhus or a dark Apostle or the hell cult formation lol

Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Yeah if I either take typhus or a dark Apostle or the hell cult formation lol

And thats one big Fearless tarpit, and those are nice.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

Ok, i think they deserve to be in here. Though i feel if they were a bit cheaper they would be better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

Lol if you want a tarpit il take some allied plague bearers

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

As a dedicated hth unit I present to thee:
Genestealer rules and stats :(

 Ratius wrote:
As a dedicated hth unit I present to thee:
Genestealer rules and stats :(

You will never know how much this pisses me off. I had like 30-40 genestealers, and now they are basically useless. Thus why my Nids are shelved.

Hey hey non kdk bezerkers would like a word with the genestealers

topaxygouroun i wrote:
P-y-r-o-v-o-r-e-s.

They gave them drop pods. Drop podding heavy flamers aren't bad.

Not super good, mind you. But definitely not unplayable.

 krodarklorr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
P-y-r-o-v-o-r-e-s.

They gave them drop pods. Drop podding heavy flamers aren't bad.

Not super good, mind you. But definitely not unplayable.

My Sisters LOVE Drop Podding Heavy Flamers, but thats us.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

That just means you are overpriced. But they can, theoretically, do what they are supposed to do.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

That just means you are overpriced. But they can, theoretically, do what they are supposed to do.

yes exactly, unlike say azreal who is genuinely worthless hes a lord of war that cant cc better than anyone really, he cant shoot better than any other marine can really, and he cant take a hit at all. any current mainstream hq can bypass his 2+ armor and kill him because he only has a 4++ and a 6+++ to save him

Hellions are certainly a unit that seems to find a new way to disappoint me every time I read their entry.
- "Well, at least they have grenades... oh, wait."
- "They have Stealth, right? Oh, my mistake, they needed the Baron to give them that and he's gone now."
- "Wait... where did their second attack go? Are you telling me someone at GW thought these things were so good that they needed to lose half their attacks?"
- "Yes, I said half their attacks. We have a melee unit with 1 S4 AP5 attack each. Fear the Dark Eldar indeed."
- "Wait... why do they all have CCWs? They come with Hellglaives as standard and have no option to exchange them... and Hellglaives are two-handed. They might as well have listed 'shoe polish' in their wargear."

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

That just means you are overpriced. But they can, theoretically, do what they are supposed to do.

Call a spade a spade. This is a terrible argument. Theoretically Warp Talons can do their job too. If a unit isn't mathematically good, don't defend it.

OP, you are missing one thing: Rough Riders.

By and large the worst unit in the game, costing over twice the cost of a Guardsman with the same stats, only a laspistol as a weapon and a one use hunting lance CCW. And no, they do not have instant death or outflank or infiltrate or scout or deepstrike or any other rule which might help them get close.

Look at how they interact with the rest of the codex. Not just their statline.

Fulgurites and Corpuscarii are cheap (by Mechanicus standards) ways of getting your Canticles count up. They are the choir.

They also benefit from Canticles in ways that other Mechanicus units do not.

Go down the list of Canticles and think about it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
OP, you are missing one thing: Rough Riders.

By and large the worst unit in the game, costing over twice the cost of a Guardsman with the same stats, only a laspistol as a weapon and a one use hunting lance CCW. And no, they do not have instant death or outflank or infiltrate or scout or deepstrike or any other rule which might help them get close.

Its so sad, cuz Rough Riders look cool, but they are only good as a suicide unit who may break a vehicle. Seriously the One Use hunting lance is just dumb.

No lol, the cheap way to get your canticles up is fething Convocation aka "so you want to compete with the big boys, here you have to use this formation."

If you're trying to play Cult Mech and not using convo, you can basically deal with being Harlequin/Tempestus tier. Because it was designed the way the codex should have been designed (no not the free freaking upgrades) as one codex, called Adeptus Mechanicus, with Canticles and no Doctrina Imperatives. But no, GW would rather fleece an extra buck than give it's players something functional.

And if you really want to play CM? There's nothing these sad sacks do that more servitors don't do better.

Their lore vs rules is even hilarious. The ranged ones are supposed to "destroy enemy infantry and machines alike" so are they strong enough to hurt tanks? Haywire maybe? No, they're just more expensive than space marines with a 5++ and a bolter that doesn't shoot 24"

 Grimmor wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
OP, you are missing one thing: Rough Riders.

By and large the worst unit in the game, costing over twice the cost of a Guardsman with the same stats, only a laspistol as a weapon and a one use hunting lance CCW. And no, they do not have instant death or outflank or infiltrate or scout or deepstrike or any other rule which might help them get close.

Its so sad, cuz Rough Riders look cool, but they are only good as a suicide unit who may break a vehicle. Seriously the One Use hunting lance is just dumb.

Well Vraks Rough Riders are actually okay.

the_scotsman wrote:
No lol, the cheap way to get your canticles up is fething Convocation aka "so you want to compete with the big boys, here you have to use this formation."

If you're trying to play Cult Mech and not using convo, you can basically deal with being Harlequin/Tempestus tier. Because it was designed the way the codex should have been designed (no not the free freaking upgrades) as one codex, called Adeptus Mechanicus, with Canticles and no Doctrina Imperatives. But no, GW would rather fleece an extra buck than give it's players something functional.

And if you really want to play CM? There's nothing these sad sacks do that more servitors don't do better.

Their lore vs rules is even hilarious. The ranged ones are supposed to "destroy enemy infantry and machines alike" so are they strong enough to hurt tanks? Haywire maybe? No, they're just more expensive than space marines with a 5++ and a bolter that doesn't shoot 24"

No, that is not a cheap way to get canticles up because the War Convocation requires an Imperial Knight among other things, which is not cheap and barely benefits from Canticles.

Do the math on electroshock gauntlets vs. bolters.

This is inane. Read the damn codex and think instead of loling. which doe snot make you look clever but childish.

People who say fulgurites are the worst unit have probably never thought about adding in a Grey Knights Librarian and never have taken them in squads of 20. They must be in squads of 20, that is very important.
Loads of high strength, ID on 6, IWND, Fearless and once they wipe out a unit (which is pretty likely given Hammerhand) they become near unkillable.
Fulgurites are by no means a bad unit, and if used right they can be extremely powerful.

I'm going to give an example here of not thinking.

If you just looked at the statline for Electroshock Gauntlets and saw S4 12" range 2 RoF, you might think that they were 12" bolters. But then if you looked at their special rules and how they interact with the special rules of the platform, you would notice something else, if you thought about it.

EGs are Assault 2 Twin-Linked Shock Assault weapons. That means that, each time a Corpuscarii shoots, it statistically gets an average of 2.67 hits (as opposed to a bolter marine's 1.33 within RF range). They get double the hits.

Moreover, since they are Assault, the Corpuscarii can now charge. When they do, their Voltagheist Field (see, more special rules) lets them hit at initiative through cover AND gives them a S4 Hammer of Wrath attack.

THEN, because they have Zealot, their close combat attacks (of which they get 3 on the charge) count as Twin-Linked AGAIN effectively, AND they retain Shock, meaning that against something with WS4 each charging Corpuscarii will hit an average of 3.7 times!!!! (as opposed to a charging MEQ's average of 1).

With the proper Canticle at the proper level, they will do this at Strength 7. That's 3.7 S7 hits, per Corpuscarii. Or alternatively they can get 3 extra S4 attacks that automatically hit, per Corpuscarii.

They are not 12" bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, the immense number of hits that Cospuscarii generate means that no way on Earth do you want to give them Haywire! A single Corpuscarii would do 2.22 Hull Points!

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

Celestians.

They're Battle Sisters, but with a worse Act of Faith, an extra (WS3 S3 I3) attack, and costing 3 points more per model.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

Celestians.

They're Battle Sisters, but with a worse Act of Faith, an extra (WS3 S3 I3) attack, and costing 3 points more per model.

Celestians really aren't as bad as hellions. If nothing else, at least they can still bring 2 special weapons per 5.

In contrast, a squad of 20 Hellions can take exactly as many special weapons as a squad of 5 - none whatsoever. Also, that extra attack is still more than the Hellions get.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

Celestians.

They're Battle Sisters, but with a worse Act of Faith, an extra (WS3 S3 I3) attack, and costing 3 points more per model.

Wait, am I missing something here? Don't celestians have jump packs? Usually you can expect to pay a wee bit more per model for double the movement.

And looking at the rules again, I can see how Corpuscarii might be usable but I'm standing by the fulgurites. I cannot see a way that a T3 5++ FNP unit could ever get across the table, and how they could ever live long enough to get that 3++. Yes, you get one turn of stealth/shroud. Yes, you could turn off the shooting power of the rest of your army to give them a half decent round of melee (if they don't get fethed up by some I3+ opponent)

If they had a readily available OT transport that wasn't 250 points? Totally, they'd be around the level of Ork Nobz-a usable glass cannon. But they don't, and every argument for them starts with the assumption that they A) get to melee and B) survive their opponents first swing (unless they're fighting tau).

the_scotsman wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

Celestians.

They're Battle Sisters, but with a worse Act of Faith, an extra (WS3 S3 I3) attack, and costing 3 points more per model.

Wait, am I missing something here? Don't celestians have jump packs? Usually you can expect to pay a wee bit more per model for double the movement.

And looking at the rules again, I can see how Corpuscarii might be usable but I'm standing by the fulgurites. I cannot see a way that a T3 5++ FNP unit could ever get across the table, and how they could ever live long enough to get that 3++. Yes, you get one turn of stealth/shroud. Yes, you could turn off the shooting power of the rest of your army to give them a half decent round of melee (if they don't get fethed up by some I3+ opponent)

If they had a readily available OT transport that wasn't 250 points? Totally, they'd be around the level of Ork Nobz-a usable glass cannon. But they don't, and every argument for them starts with the assumption that they A) get to melee and B) survive their opponents first swing (unless they're fighting tau).

Seraphim have Jumppacks, Celestians walk.

And they can get to melee. Your opponent is forced to fire on a unit that may be a problem or a unit that is a problem. All of your Battle Servitors are tearing holes in his army and if the Fulgerites get in to melee they can tear them up too. They make a good Distraction Carnifex. Also they work well with an Invisibility Psyker (who doesnt)

Im not saying they are an Auto include, but they are definitely not the worst

I think that what the designers INTENDED with Fulgarites (not saying that they succeeded) is to have them behind the Breachers, who would be, you know, breaching, and providing a cover save (which would be 2+ with Shroudpsalm) as they advance in the course of said breaching, then mving out from behind them to attack. And they will do quite a bit of damage in combat (potentially S8 attacks that ID, or 3 S4 hits per Fulgarite -- that's up to 60 there for a full squad)

Now I have not actually tried them out and am interested in hearing what those who have have to say.

BTW you get TWO turns of stealth/shrouded (or any other canticle) with the Mechanics detachment.

The fact of the matter is that all of the units people have mentioned so far are superior to Fulgurite Electropriests on a strictly unit-to-unit comparison.

Chaos Cultists and Grots are cheaper, and can shoot them to death.

Mandrakes are cheaper, will kill them at range with their Baleblast, and will beat them in CC.

Hellions are cheaper, can shoot them to death, and with Combat Drugs will beat them in CC.

Flayed Ones in a Decurion are cheaper and are durable enough to survive the initial charge and easily beat them in CC.

Vespid are one point more expensive, but have a better armour save, and a gun that is actually threatening.

Celestians are cheaper, have an armour save worth a damn, and could probably beat them in CC.

Sisters Repentia are...actually quite comparable, but an eviscerator is more useful against vehicles. CC results depend on who got the charge.

In addition, with the exception of Grots and Cultists, all of these other units have a "delivery system"; Hellions and Vespid are jump infantry, Mandrakes and Flayed Ones can infiltrate, and Celestians and Repentia can buy a metal box for extra speed and survivability. Fulgurite Electropriests are reliant on allies for transports, and are stuck moving six inches a turn towards the enemy at maximum.

I stand by my choice for the worst unit in the game.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The fact of the matter is that all of the units people have mentioned so far are superior to Fulgurite Electropriests on a strictly unit-to-unit comparison.

Chaos Cultists and Grots are cheaper, and can shoot them to death.

Mandrakes are cheaper, will kill them at range with their Baleblast, and will beat them in CC.

Hellions are cheaper, can shoot them to death, and with Combat Drugs will beat them in CC.

Flayed Ones in a Decurion are cheaper and are durable enough to survive the initial charge and easily beat them in CC.

Vespid are one point more expensive, but have a better armour save, and a gun that is actually threatening.

Celestians are cheaper, have an armour save worth a damn, and could probably beat them in CC.

Sisters Repentia are...actually quite comparable, but an eviscerator is more useful against vehicles. CC results depend on who got the charge.

In addition, with the exception of Grots and Cultists, all of these other units have a "delivery system"; Hellions and Vespid are jump infantry, Mandrakes and Flayed Ones can infiltrate, and Celestians and Repentia can buy a metal box for extra speed and survivability. Fulgurite Electropriests are reliant on allies for transports, and are stuck moving six inches a turn towards the enemy at maximum.

I stand by my choice for the worst unit in the game.

And Fulgurites both generate and benefit from Canticles, which you have not mentioned...

(Of course Flayed Ones will beat them, Flayed Ones are possibly the game's deadliest unit in CC. I'm a little baffled that they're on a "worst units" list -- Flayed Ones are incredible.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just out of curiousity I'll do the math for 13 Fulgurites vs. 18 Decurion Flayed Ones (equal points values) assuming the Fulgies get the charge and assuming an 8+ level Electrocutioner canticle.

13 Fulgurites charge!

13 Hammer of Wrath attacks. 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 x 13 = 1 5/8; round up to 2. 2 Flayes Ones "die."; 16 left

13 x 3 = 39 S4 Electrocutioner hits. These do the same damage as the HoW. 1/8 x 39 = 39/8 = just about 5. 5 Flayed Ones "die." 11 left.

Now the Fulgurites actually swing. Because of Zealot they reroll misses. They ID on a 6, which complicates matters. 39 attacks.

3/4 x 1/6 x 2/3 = 1/12 x 39 = 39/12 = about 3.
+
3/4 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 3/16 x 39 = 117/16 = about 7

Total about 10 Flayed Ones "die."

Leaving 1 left.

Nope, Fulgurites actual beat Decurion Flayed Ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Albeit I did this very quickly, math might be off. ?

Alcibiades wrote:

And Fulgurites both generate and benefit from Canticles, which you have not mentioned...

(Of course Flayed Ones will beat them, Flayed Ones are possibly the game's deadliest unit in CC. I'm a little baffled that they're on a "worst units" list -- Flayed Ones are incredible.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just out of curiousity I'll do the math for 13 Fulgurites vs. 18 Decurion Flayed Ones (equal points values) assuming the Fulgies get the charge and assuming an 8+ level Electrocutioner canticle.

13 Fulgurites charge!

13 Hammer of Wrath attacks. 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 x 13 = 1 5/8; round up to 2. 2 Flayes Ones "die."; 16 left

13 x 3 = 39 S4 Electrocutioner hits. These do the same damage as the HoW. 1/8 x 39 = 39/8 = just about 5. 5 Flayed Ones "die." 11 left.

Now the Fulgurites actually swing. Because of Zealot they reroll misses. They ID on a 6, which complicates matters. 39 attacks.

3/4 x 1/6 x 2/3 = 1/12 x 39 = 39/12 = about 3.
+
3/4 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 3/16 x 39 = 117/16 = about 7

Total about 10 Flayed Ones "die."

Leaving 1 left.

Nope, Fulgurites actual beat Decurion Flayed Ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Albeit I did this very quickly, math might be off. ?

I did not include Canticles, as I was going on a strictly single unit vs. single unit basis. Chaos Cultists generate and can benefit from Blood Tithe points, but that doesn't make them good units. It's telling that the Slaughtercult lets you instakill them if they break.

If, like in my arguments, we only go on an unit-by-unit basis you cannot include the Canticles. I also did not include any Blood Tithe, Power From Pain, or Acts of Faith in my arguments either.

Your mathhammer, aside from being terribly formatted (you are supposed to include what the rolls are, not leave the reader to interpret) has two main problems:

1. Rounding. Mathhammer gives you the exact statistical average of what will happen. Rounding throws all of this out the window; if you must round, you do it for the final product i.e. determining combat resolution.

2. Flayed ones are WS4. This drastically cuts how many hits they end up taking, even with Zealot.

Revise the mathhammer, get rid of the Canticles, and I can tell you that a lot more Flayed Ones will live to see their Initiative step, whereupon the Fulgurite Electropriests are slaughtered wholesale.

You can conceivably make them work by putting them in an allied Land Raider and attaching an allied character to buff them. But the same can be done for Repentia, and that doesn't make them any better as a unit either. All those points could have been spent on better units in a better army build.

As a side note, Flayed Ones are highly overrated as a unit. They can mulch basic infantry, sure, but dedicated CC units? All them have going for them then is their durability in surviving to their Inititive step. Death Company eat these guys for breakfast.

Why should we exclude Canticles from the evaluation of this unit?

 j31c3n wrote:
Why should we exclude Canticles from the evaluation of this unit?

Why, if you manage to get to Khorne's favorite number for Canticles, would you spend it on buffing the Electromancers instead of giving everyone in the army Stealth/Shrouded or re-rolling to hit when shooting?

Rough riders are pretty fine in a min unit with a melta bomb sarge. They can do decent damage with their lances and they can hunt stand-alone vehicles and even finish off MC, mind you.

Electropriests don't look impressive but they're far from the bottom of the pile. They're somewhere around ogryn level. Actually not bad but there's better stuff.

The bottom of the pile is possessed and killa kanz imo.

My answer is...

The AM Valkyrie.

It's a flyer, that can't reasonably fight flyers. Solo, you can speedily drop off one unit of Veterans someplace... for 3.5 times the cost of an allied Pod. And those Vets are sitting ducks, 'cause those 5 Hellions are going to spank them in CC. Once everyone's dropped off, you basically have a flying Chimera that costs twice as much. Take 3? Well, you could have bought your whole army Drop Pods instead, even paying a tax for a unit of BA Scouts, or something.

So in terms of a unit that has ABSOLUTELY no reasonable purpose in 7th edition, the Valkyrie is my vote for worst unit. Hellions could at least hop around, scoring objectives... or something.

 Grimmor wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
OP, you are missing one thing: Rough Riders.

By and large the worst unit in the game, costing over twice the cost of a Guardsman with the same stats, only a laspistol as a weapon and a one use hunting lance CCW. And no, they do not have instant death or outflank or infiltrate or scout or deepstrike or any other rule which might help them get close.

Its so sad, cuz Rough Riders look cool, but they are only good as a suicide unit who may break a vehicle. Seriously the One Use hunting lance is just dumb.

It was always dumb. The inspiration comes a WWII myth about Polish troops attacking tanks with lances (never happened, but the story is still in circulation).

Now mounted recon troops could be good for the IG, give them scout, shotguns and some kind of artillery spotter ability and they'd be useful.

Instead we get silly shaped charge lances.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Hellions are cheaper, can shoot them to death, and with Combat Drugs will beat them in CC.

If you're not including Canticle, then you can't include combat drugs - especially since the DE player has no control over them.

And, Hellions most certainly won't beat equal points of Electro Priests in combat. Even if they get the charge, the priests still get the better of them (11 Hellions vs 8 priests results in 3 dead priests and 6 dead hellions). So, they end up with equal numbers, and it only gets worse for the Hellions from there (and that's assuming they get cut down).

Were not looking at usefulness in some stupid vacuum. Yes, the priests get canticles. Yes, the Cultists can be taken with KDK and Helcult and whatever formations. Yes, grots' 35 point price tag and Obsec is a factor.

The fact remains that every use the Fulgurites have is counter to what the army wants to do, and they're an awkward unit to try and support. If you want tons of canticle points, convo gives you not one, but SIX sub-100 point units with canticles in addition to its other absurd benefits. So you have to take a knight, so what? Who's ever complained about a knight, and guess what-IT GETS CANTICLES TOO. You're saying a knight that can re-roll hits, or get stealth/shrouded and gets free upgrades is somehow a tax?

And even if you do decide to go purely cult mech, the fulgurites are basically anti-synergy. Moving up, yes, you want Shroudpsalm to keep from dying. But when you close, a cult mech army really really wants to turn on rerolls to hit to get those phosphor shots out so the Punchbots can charge, to make the breachers' shots count, and instead you are gonna make everyone sit on BS3 to make your one or two units of fulgurites not suck in melee?

Are they supposed to be a distraction Carnifex? In an army that contains Kastellans and Breachers? A glass cannon, with no transport and 6" move? A cheap filler unit, at 18 PPM?

The overall gist of these type of threads always boils down to the same thing: if you're not spending your points on the most efficient shooting units or something that may grant invis, you're doing it wrong. It's a statement so true, that GW came up with formations to force us to purchase a few models we otherwise would not, and created an entire new game that got rid of points altogether.

I'm sure they get tired of making beautiful models that never sell because we, the community, deem them to be 2pts per model too expensive.

If only they also controlled the rules for said models.

 Voidwraith wrote:
The overall gist of these type of threads always boils down to the same thing: if you're not spending your points on the most efficient shooting units or something that may grant invis, you're doing it wrong. It's a statement so true, that GW came up with formations to force us to purchase a few models we otherwise would not, and created an entire new game that got rid of points altogether.

I'm sure they get tired of making beautiful models that never sell because we, the community, deem them to be 2pts per model too expensive.

That's not the gist of this thread at all. The gist of it is that Fulgurites are so awful, and so without support or synergy from the rest of the list, that to be something you would actually want to field they would need to be absurdly undercosted to the point they would be ridiculous. They just don't fit with the army, which is particularly important in a list that relies on army wide buffs.

The other melee threats of Cult Mech are either 50% melee, 50% ranged (Breachers) or use a ranged attack to help them engage on the enemy (Kastellans). This means on the turn you want to charge, you can turn on your shooting buffs, that helps your shooting units and then also directly helps your melee units too-everyone benefits and then you get solid units in assault. If you included Electropriests, you have to use a buff just for them to make them passable, and leave your shooting core suffering with BS3. Fulgurites aren't unusable because they're "two points too expensive" they're so bad they actively make your whole list worse


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth pointing out that the "power game min max" list of AdMech is one of nearly everything in both codexes, and nothing in either grants Invis. By your definition, playing them at all is doing it wrong.

 Psienesis wrote:
They're stronger than Sisters Repentia with a better Save.

No. Repentia are amazing if they get into combat, and these guys are not. I've never not wiped out the first squad I charged with them, I1 or no.

Granted, with the loss of FNP and the lack of assault transports, they basically need an allied Land Raiser to get them there - but once they are there they rip it up.

-D

You guys are forgetting dark eldar wyches! They don't have an invul outside of combat! Yes they can take a vehicle, but they're are easily to penetrate and explode!

DirtyDeeds wrote:
You guys are forgetting dark eldar wyches! They don't have an invul outside of combat! Yes they can take a vehicle, but they're are easily to penetrate and explode!

They also don't hit anywhere near as hard as the priests.

Anyone afraid of a few S3 melee attacks?

 vipoid wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
You guys are forgetting dark eldar wyches! They don't have an invul outside of combat! Yes they can take a vehicle, but they're are easily to penetrate and explode!

They also don't hit anywhere near as hard as the priests.

Anyone afraid of a few S3 melee attacks?

With Power From Pain and Combat Drugs, Wyches can hit hard enough to tarpit or kill most units. The problem is that they have no survivability outside of CC whatsoever.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

With Power From Pain and Combat Drugs, Wyches can hit hard enough to tarpit or kill most units. The problem is that they have no survivability outside of CC whatsoever.

Power from pain gets them no extra offence until turn 4.

You seem to have really optimistic ideas about how useful combat drugs are.
+1WS. Whoop.
+1I. Will anyone notice?
+1A. If I want more useless S3 attacks, I'll take bloodbrides. But I don't, so I won't.
+1Ld. Wow, I bet my opponent is trembling with fear now.

My money is on nurglings.
Hopeless at just about everything in the game.

Slow, no ranged attacks, weak, poor save and not even a decent tarpit.

Rough Riders. useless save that is ignored by most basic weapons, useless stat line, only ranged weapon is a laspistol, only melee weapon is a one use boomstick and no rules to help them get to CC in the first place. And for this privilege you pay over twice the cost of a Guardsman.

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

With Power From Pain and Combat Drugs, Wyches can hit hard enough to tarpit or kill most units. The problem is that they have no survivability outside of CC whatsoever.

Power from pain gets them no extra offence until turn 4.

You seem to have really optimistic ideas about how useful combat drugs are.
+1WS. Whoop.
+1I. Will anyone notice?
+1A. If I want more useless S3 attacks, I'll take bloodbrides. But I don't, so I won't.
+1Ld. Wow, I bet my opponent is trembling with fear now.

+1 WS means Wyches hit most units on 3s instead of 4s.
+1 Initiative...okay, not so useful on an I6 model.
+1 Attack means Wyches pump out 4 attacks on the charge. S3 can add up though sheer weight of numbers.
+1 Strength gets rid of their S3 handicap
+1 Toughness means they are suddenly more durable and less likely to have their FnP negated
+1 Leadership matters for combat resolution and morale checks from overwatch.

That's 1 out of 6 that doesn't help. I'm not saying that Wyches are an amazing unit; they aren't killy enough with just basic CCWs, and they have no durability outside of the assault phase. But there are much worse units in the game. Like Fulgurite Electropriests.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
The overall gist of these type of threads always boils down to the same thing: if you're not spending your points on the most efficient shooting units or something that may grant invis, you're doing it wrong. It's a statement so true, that GW came up with formations to force us to purchase a few models we otherwise would not, and created an entire new game that got rid of points altogether.

I'm sure they get tired of making beautiful models that never sell because we, the community, deem them to be 2pts per model too expensive.

That's not the gist of this thread at all. The gist of it is that Fulgurites are so awful, and so without support or synergy from the rest of the list, that to be something you would actually want to field they would need to be absurdly undercosted to the point they would be ridiculous. They just don't fit with the army, which is particularly important in a list that relies on army wide buffs.

The other melee threats of Cult Mech are either 50% melee, 50% ranged (Breachers) or use a ranged attack to help them engage on the enemy (Kastellans). This means on the turn you want to charge, you can turn on your shooting buffs, that helps your shooting units and then also directly helps your melee units too-everyone benefits and then you get solid units in assault. If you included Electropriests, you have to use a buff just for them to make them passable, and leave your shooting core suffering with BS3. Fulgurites aren't unusable because they're "two points too expensive" they're so bad they actively make your whole list worse


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth pointing out that the "power game min max" list of AdMech is one of nearly everything in both codexes, and nothing in either grants Invis. By your definition, playing them at all is doing it wrong.

You're right. I made a general statement about "how good are X" and "how bad are X" threads. I should have realized things would be taken super literally.

But back on topic. This thread is about bashing a unit that almost no one runs. Even the people who can see some use for Fulgurite Electropriests have pointed out they're not a great unit. The Fulgurite Electropriest Love-fest that never started must stop immediately.

The most interesting thing to come out of this thread may be that some people, for some crazy ridiculous reason, refuse to look at the army-wide special rules or other buffs that may or may not apply to the unit in question when deciding how useful it is. I mean, we all think Riptides are good, right? Well...you can ignore them for the most part, but they're super scary at times with ignores cover...except they need something else in the army to provide the ignores cover. Do people not talk about ignores cover being an issue when dealing with Riptides? I know markerlight support along with the Riptide is what scared the hell out of my Tyranids and their 2+ cover save. I think you see where I'm going here.

 Voidwraith wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
The overall gist of these type of threads always boils down to the same thing: if you're not spending your points on the most efficient shooting units or something that may grant invis, you're doing it wrong. It's a statement so true, that GW came up with formations to force us to purchase a few models we otherwise would not, and created an entire new game that got rid of points altogether.

I'm sure they get tired of making beautiful models that never sell because we, the community, deem them to be 2pts per model too expensive.

That's not the gist of this thread at all. The gist of it is that Fulgurites are so awful, and so without support or synergy from the rest of the list, that to be something you would actually want to field they would need to be absurdly undercosted to the point they would be ridiculous. They just don't fit with the army, which is particularly important in a list that relies on army wide buffs.

The other melee threats of Cult Mech are either 50% melee, 50% ranged (Breachers) or use a ranged attack to help them engage on the enemy (Kastellans). This means on the turn you want to charge, you can turn on your shooting buffs, that helps your shooting units and then also directly helps your melee units too-everyone benefits and then you get solid units in assault. If you included Electropriests, you have to use a buff just for them to make them passable, and leave your shooting core suffering with BS3. Fulgurites aren't unusable because they're "two points too expensive" they're so bad they actively make your whole list worse


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth pointing out that the "power game min max" list of AdMech is one of nearly everything in both codexes, and nothing in either grants Invis. By your definition, playing them at all is doing it wrong.

You're right. I made a general statement about "how good are X" and "how bad are X" threads. I should have realized things would be taken super literally.

But back on topic. This thread is about bashing a unit that almost no one runs. Even the people who can see some use for Fulgurite Electropriests have pointed out they're not a great unit. The Fulgurite Electropriest Love-fest that never started must stop immediately.

The most interesting thing to come out of this thread may be that some people, for some crazy ridiculous reason, refuse to look at the army-wide special rules or other buffs that may or may not apply to the unit in question when deciding how useful it is. I mean, we all think Riptides are good, right? Well...you can ignore them for the most part, but they're super scary at times with ignores cover...except they need something else in the army to provide the ignores cover. Do people not talk about ignores cover being an issue when dealing with Riptides? I know markerlight support along with the Riptide is what scared the hell out of my Tyranids and their 2+ cover save. I think you see where I'm going here.

You do have to take army-wide rules into account. that you be like talking about Space Marines with no reference to chapter tactics. The problem is that Canticles of the Omnissiah is a very unusual rule i nits scaling mechanic. The Electropriests are good at their own max-level canticle, sure, but it requires choosing a Canticle that won't benefit the rest of your army much. That's where people are getting the "worst unit in the game" tag from. They have mediocre stats, require allies to be used effectively, and penalize your entire army just for running them.

I mostly made the thread because I'm amused, the title of "worst unit in the game" is just a funny little oddity. It is pretty funny that people think the overall power level of the game is somehow going up. The truth of it is, GW is just steadily getting worse at designing rules. People see the craziest stuff they put out, but for every Wraithknight there's an Electropriest, and for every Convocation there's a Skiitari Cohort. The game still functions on a casual level, with good communication and a lot of unspoken agreements between players, but the fact that people play this competitively is just bizarre to me.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mostly made the thread because I'm amused, the title of "worst unit in the game" is just a funny little oddity. It is pretty funny that people think the overall power level of the game is somehow going up. The truth of it is, GW is just steadily getting worse at designing rules. People see the craziest stuff they put out, but for every Wraithknight there's an Electropriest, and for every Convocation there's a Skiitari Cohort. The game still functions on a casual level, with good communication and a lot of unspoken agreements between players, but the fact that people play this competitively is just bizarre to me.

Some people find the competitive aspect fun and rewarding. Some people also find being physically hurt to be sexually arousing.

 ionusx wrote:
yes exactly, unlike say azreal who is genuinely worthless hes a lord of war that cant cc better than anyone really, he cant shoot better than any other marine can really, and he cant take a hit at all. any current mainstream hq can bypass his 2+ armor and kill him because he only has a 4++ and a 6+++ to save him

Yes, Azrael is not very good but he does not belong in contention for the worst unit in the game. The new book buffed his FnP save to a 5+, which is nice until you realize that he's been hit by a powerfist and instagibbed. I tend to think of him as a support character in that he gives whatever unit he's with a 4++. Good for any unit that you want to keep alive in spite of anti-tank weapons. All he would have needed to be truly great would have been AP2 on his weapon and Eternal Warrior.

Eternal Warrior is literally the best fix for Azrael. He's a support Chapter Master and relatively cheap, but he definitely needs the AP2 or Eternal Warrior.
That's more due to the ID mechanic though, which I think needs a major overhaul because having T5-6 or having Eternal Warrior has become too important with the power creep.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

+1 WS means Wyches hit most units on 3s instead of 4s. Which solves exactly none of their issues.
+1 Initiative...okay, not so useful on an I6 model. Agreed.
+1 Attack means Wyches pump out 4 attacks on the charge. S3 can add up though sheer weight of numbers. No, it doesn't. Adding more attacks makes negligible difference when you have no useful AP and 2/3 of your attacks fail to wound against T4. To put it in context, 10 wyches charge a unit of marines and all survive overwatch. Without this, they have 30 attacks and average 1.67 wounds. With it, they have 40 attacks and average 2.22 wounds. If you honestly think that improves their situation, then I really can't help you.
+1 Strength gets rid of their S3 handicap Agreed. Now they hit as hard as an assault marine.
+1 Toughness means they are suddenly more durable and less likely to have their FnP negated Hope you weren't planning on using them offensively...
+1 Leadership matters for combat resolution and morale checks from overwatch. Overwatch doesn't cause morale tests, and if they're taking morale tests in combat then they obviously suck at combat. This does not help them.

That's 1 out of 6 that doesn't help. No, it's 2/3. 5/6 if you want them to fulfil an offensive role. I'm not saying that Wyches are an amazing unit; they aren't killy enough with just basic CCWs, and they have no durability outside of the assault phase. But there are much worse units in the game. Like Fulgurite Electropriests. And I'm disagreeing. Electropriests are awful, but wyches are worse. Though I suspect we won't be agreeing on that anytime soon.

 ionusx wrote:
no azreal is the worst hes a lord of war worse than most marine captains -.-

Azrael kicks Kharn's ass three times out of four. In hand to hand combat no less. He definetly not LoW material but definatly not weaker then nameless captains.

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

That's 1 out of 6 that doesn't help. No, it's 2/3. 5/6 if you want them to fulfil an offensive role. I'm not saying that Wyches are an amazing unit; they aren't killy enough with just basic CCWs, and they have no durability outside of the assault phase. But there are much worse units in the game. Like Fulgurite Electropriests. And I'm disagreeing. Electropriests are awful, but wyches are worse. Though I suspect we won't be agreeing on that anytime soon.

The problem with Wyches is not that they don't do enough damage in cc - they did perfectly fine in previous editions with low strength. Their job is pinning units in close combat and slowly stripping off wounds, not slaughtering units on the charge and then getting caught in the open next shooting phase. All the drug rolls except +1 initiative and arguably +1 leadership help them with this.

What makes them not work is changes to over watch, more firepower on the field and less reliable charge ranges.

 Hollowman wrote:

The problem with Wyches is not that they don't do enough damage in cc - they did perfectly fine in previous editions with low strength.

Um, no they didn't.

Look at how they were used prior to this book - 5 of them in a venom/raider, all with haywire grenades. Their purpose wasn't to kill or tarpit units, it was to kill vehicles.

In 7th, they lost the ability to take haywire grenades - i.e. their only useful role - and gained no melee ability whatsoever to compensate.

 Hollowman wrote:

What makes them not work is changes to over watch, more firepower on the field and less reliable charge ranges.

No, it's that they suck at their job.
- They lost the ability to take unit-wide haywire grenades
- Their offence in melee is pathetic
- Their melee weapons are garbage
- They can't take special weapons like meltas or flamers to give them alternate uses
- They don't get a save outside of combat
- Even in combat, they're still T3 with only a 4++ to protect them, and then you're relying on them not fleeing when they inevitably lose
- They're more expensive than Warriors

In terms of a tarpit, there are two issues with that - firstly, they're extremely limited in which units they can effectively tarpit. You need something with very few attacks (which also need to be S10 or Instant Death - otherwise you're better off using Grotesques, as they can actually fight back), so Wraiths, TWC etc. are all out because they'll just munch the Wyches. Then, you're still relying on them not fleeing when they lose combat (otherwise you've literally done nothing but feed the enemy a troop choice). Second, DE are probably one of the armies least in need of tarpits to begin with. DE are mobile, and don't really do anything resembling a gunline (or anything that would desperately require tarpit units). What they need is units with bite - stuff that can compete with grav and such. The old Wyches could offer very reliable anti-tank. The new wyches can offer nothing whatsoever.

wych tank hunters were primarily a thing after 6th hit, or as a cheap assist to a shooty list. In 5th, and especially when the DE codex dropped, Wyches were one of the more effective and popular units in the game, rushing forward in raiders and hitting early and hard. DE badly need tar pit units, not to hold up combat, but to hold up SHOOTING and wyches filled that role admirably. You'd have been hard pressed to find a DE army without a unit of ten.

Wyches have barely changed at all, but the rules have changed around them, and since 6th they have done nothing but slowly diminish into nothingness. The era of haywire Dependant whyches was already long past the era of good wyches.

Even in 5th, I very rarely saw wyches being used - it was always Warriors or Wracks.

Unless you're referring to their use prior to the 5th edition codex?

I haven't seen the 3rd edition book used, but I can certainly see wyches used when a 5-man squad could take 2 blasters at 5pts each.

It's obviously meta dependent, but I saw a lot of wyches. They could tie up a shooty blob (guardians, imperial guard, tacticals) and totally remove their shooting for a few 2-3 turns for fairly cheap, and they could do the same to low attack assault units or backfield heavy guns. They were a good deal and did more to effect the board than kabalites - wracks were nice but I mostly saw them as objective holders. It's really over watch that killed that use - charging them into a shooty unit to hold up their fire is a lot less effective with over watch.

-D

 vipoid wrote:
Even in 5th, I very rarely saw wyches being used - it was always Warriors or Wracks.

Unless you're referring to their use prior to the 5th edition codex?

I haven't seen the 3rd edition book used, but I can certainly see wyches used when a 5-man squad could take 2 blasters at 5pts each.

You saw wytches all the time in 3rd; combat drugs could randomly give them a 12" move, and the old 4th edition rules for combat (if you cleared yoru 2" zone, noone could attack back at you) meant they could often first turn charge especially when combined with the raider pivot trick.Of course then ravagers with triple dissie were nasty as all hell...

Good point.

Didn't the old disintegrators used to function as plasma cannons?

Something like that... but right now, Wyches only outperform Battle Sisters by 0.02 of a wound in close combat, and that's assuming that the Sisters don't have a Priest.

I know Hellions get a lot of grief from players, but I've had great success with them. I'm still a new player, so I may become jaded over time about these guys. My biggest success was rolling the +1S combat drug, they lasted to turn 4 (furious charge) giving them S6 on the charge, along with their 2 poison shots a piece..

Luck really comes into it, but that is not bad at all. They are better shooters than warriors at 2 shots in 18in range as opposed to 12, and better in CC than wyches with S4(5/6) at AP5 and HoW.

I wish they would have gotten AP4 or 3 with those glaives, or another type of special rule, but I will continue to use my Hellions.

My Wyches on the other hand haven't done much yet, but I will keep trying them out!

Do bear in mind that they only get HoW if they didn't use their skyboards in the movement phase.

 Reinokarite wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
no azreal is the worst hes a lord of war worse than most marine captains -.-

Azrael kicks Kharn's ass three times out of four. In hand to hand combat no less. He definetly not LoW material but definatly not weaker then nameless captains.

yes but kharn mixes with all kinds of units he literally has a list a mile and a half long, to give him his greatest potential you can only pair azreal with veterans really.. ya know those guys you put in a pod with combi's only to get blown off the board and rendered worthless after they land. i mean yea you can assault from a raider with them but thats a bit much i feel when you can have deathwing knights do that who dont need azreal's buffs.

tacticals, assaults, scouts, devestators can all use his buffs sure but they dont really need them, thats a lot of points your spending to give an invul to some devestators.

azreal would be awesome if we had a unit to give the invul that had value to give it to like honor guard, blobsman, death company all the units that azreal would work well with exist in other books and you shouldnt have a lord of war in one army so he can be used in another that defeats the purpose of him being in that book taking up an entire page of text. id also like to add that you CANT take azreal without a CAD or a lions blade meaning you cant include him in any of the options most people take when wanting to include a dark angels detachment in their army anyway (allied detachment, ravenwing strikeforce, dw strike force). azreal is coated in anti CODEX synergy he works against the entire codex.

it is of my opinion that azreals page was written at the very end of production of the book when they had no time to go over it or look at his rules and work it

Nobody seems to understand how poor of a choice for his points the changeling really is. I sound like a broken record, but seriously... Look at his rules.

He's so terrible it's impressive.

To the nurgling guy, at least you get 12 shrouded wounds to sit on an objective for 45 points that can be a cc threat if someone pokes an mc too close and you have the locus of virulence invested in the unit.. 4 attacks each actually does something against some units, especially on the charge with 9 of them for 135. The changeling does... What again?

If the purpose of this thread is to discuss the worst army list entry conpared to everything, i seriously think the changeling is an extremely serious contender for that position. He's certainly worse than fulgurite electropriests.

Im not trying to spam the thread. Just feel as though no one is recognizing how bad of a choice the changeling is. Compared to someone like azrael, he looks like a pile of squig feces.

I really dislike their models too. I like the aesthetics of everything else in the Cult Mechanicum book, but the priests really let the side down in my view.

It's kind of bad in a codex that's got what, 4 models?

I've got a broken arm, pity me! Ha loser, mine was completely cut off, pity me! You guys got off easy they cut my head off!

That's this thread summed up. All your units suck, don't use them and move on. When they don't sell GW will flip their rules to make them sell, like they did with the necrons bikes. Then you can start over as your favorite unit that coincidentally everyone and their grandma owns three of can eat the nerf bat just in time for GW's next release with three models for 75 bucks with suspiciously overpowered ruleset.

Jell with the way the priests flopped I would be shocked if in the next year they don't come out with some total BS formation that gives them all 2+ invun just to clear them out of the warehouse.

 Orock wrote:
I've got a broken arm, pity me! Ha loser, mine was completely cut off, pity me! You guys got off easy they cut my head off!

That's this thread summed up. All your units suck, don't use them and move on. When they don't sell GW will flip their rules to make them sell, like they did with the necrons bikes. Then you can start over as your favorite unit that coincidentally everyone and their grandma owns three of can eat the nerf bat just in time for GW's next release with three models for 75 bucks with suspiciously overpowered ruleset.

Jell with the way the priests flopped I would be shocked if in the next year they don't come out with some total BS formation that gives them all 2+ invun just to clear them out of the warehouse.

'Tis just a flesh wound. Now come over here and Ill bite your ankles off!

Just as a general comment, I'll just say that AdMech, much more than IG with Orders or Skitarii with DIs, is designed around the Canticles. You can see this if you go through the Canticle list and the unit list -- it's quite cleverly done, in that the Canticles are built so that they only really benefit one or two kinds of units, so you have to make a choice. For instance, the Stubborn/Fearless one is useful pretty much only with servitors (everthing elsse has Fearless or Zealot); Electrocutioner is useful pretty much only with Electro Priests (everything else is prohibitively expensive to buy in sufficient numbers); the cover save one is of limited use for anything except servitors since they have Inv saves anyway.

It's quite well done IMO.

Anyway, the point here is that

a) the units cannot be evaluated except in the context of the fact that they benefit from Canticles (as well as increase their effectiveness by virtue of merely existing)

and

b) as pointed out on the first page, the Canticles are factored into the cost of the unit. When you buy an EP, you are not just paying for his statline -- you are paying for, for instance, the 80 S4 I10 hits (not attacks, hits) that a full squad of EPs can generate on the charge.