I voted necrons because of the reasons the op listed above, plus a few of my own at I will list here.
Firstly, this quote from the necron codex:
What the Imperium cannot know is that, should the Necrons ever fully wake and unite, they would face a foe as numerous as themselves.
Obviously, there are far more orks than imperial citizens in the galaxy. However, even a necron warrior is more powerful than a space marine. One could argue this point, but I say that warriors are more durable, and have better weaponry, while space marines are much faster. Now a space marine is the very peak of the human fighting machine. They are the elite of the elite, and no one can stand against them. Now imagine an imperium where everyone is a space marine, but more durable, equipped with a gun that can punch a hole in anything, totally devoted to the war effort, and completely self-sufficient. That is what the orks would be up against.
My next argument is about gauss weaponry. Gauss literally breaks apart the molecular bonds holding things together. Let me ask you, what is the orks greatest strength? The ability to grow stronger the more they fight. Gauss mostly invalidates this by destroying the ork completely, spores and all. The only way the orks are going to increase their numbers is through the relatively small number of spores that fall out when the ork is walking around. And as far as destroying those, all the necrons have to do is point their guns at the ground and shoot.
Null field matrices are another important tool for the necrons. One of the orks strongest features is their innate psychic ability. If enough orks believe something, it becomes true. Since that ability is tied to that psychic ability, it stands to reason that if they were cut off from the warp, that ability would no longer work. And that is exactly what null field matrices do. Imagine ork technology working like it should. Gunfire would virtually stop altogether, trukks wouldn't go fasta, and missiles wouldn't make big explosions just because they're painted yellow. Orks would still be fierce in melee, but all the necrons would have to do is expand the thokt dynasty's strategy of creating killing worlds to grind the orks to dust. It's not as if orks would stop going to the killing grounds, they aren't stupid, but they can't resist a good fight.
My final point (for now) is about canoptek robots. Thousands (perhaps millions) of orks could die for every necron warrior that dies, and the orks would still win. There is no doubt that the orks could win any war of attrition against the necron nobility. Which is why necrons should rarely, if ever, fight orks directly. Because the necrons have access to an infinite supply of fighters: canoptek swarms. Scarabs eat through their victims, neatly taking care of that spore problem as easily as gauss weaponry. And what do scarabs do with all the energy they collect? Build more of themselves! If it can take root, a scarab swarm can become unstoppable by anything short of orbital bombardment (paraphrased form the necron 5th Ed codex). And necrons have the void superiority to prevent that.
The Silent King's Strategy:
Here's what I think Szarekh should do to destroy the ork menace.
Step 1: create killing worlds across the galaxy. These worlds would be big and unimportant, with null field matrices in their cores to drastically reduce the ork's firepower.
Step 2: flood the planets with scarabs, and put a fleet in orbit.
Step 3: Bait the orks into coming to the planet, put technology or some other bauble there, and then intentionally start a Waaagh
Step 4: as orks arrive, let them go to the planet's surface. If any kunnin orks want to stay in orbit, engage them and force them to land or annihilate them in void combat.
Step 5: wait. It will probably take thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years, but necrons have all the time in the universe.
Tl;dr: I think necrons could pull it off with the right strategy. I could be convinced otherwise though. I'm eager to hear any rebuttals!
Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote: However, even a necron warrior is more powerful than a space marine. One could argue this point, but I say that warriors are more durable, and have better weaponry, while space marines are much faster. Now a space marine is the very peak of the human fighting machine. They are the elite of the elite, and no one can stand against them. Now imagine an imperium where everyone is a space marine, but more durable, equipped with a gun that can punch a hole in anything, totally devoted to the war effort, and completely self-sufficient. That is what the orks would be up against.
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Surely they would have easily destroyed the Eldar if a single Necron warrior was that powerful.
Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote: That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Surely they would have easily destroyed the Eldar if a single Necron warrior was that powerful.
I agree it's a rather controversial statement, but let me provide a little evidence to back it up. Crunch-wise, Warriors and marines have nearly the same stats. Warriors have higher leadership, but marines have a higher initiative and a better armor save. However, warriors have reanimation protocols, and gauss weapons, while marines only have ATSKNF (I say only, but it's still a very powerful special rule). I think the warrior slightly edges out the marine based on these stats, but they're so close you could certainly make a good argument for the marine.
As for the necrons defeating the eldar, remember that right before the great sleep, the necrons were spent from their fight against the C'tan. Even after the loss of trillions of necrons in a matter of days during the war in heaven and probably the loss of billions more during the betrayal (Afaik there isn't a concrete stat on this), it took the combined onslaught of the eldar, orks, and powerful warp creatures to drive the necrons to hibernation. Iirc, the eldar were also far more populous than they were even before the fall. I'll try to find a direct citation to back that up, but here's some evidence to that effect. The necron 5th ed codex mentions the necrons of Zappanec defeating a massive eldar fleet, one so large it left the entire planet surrounded by orbiting metal for 60 million years. Surely the eldar must have had a truly immense population to be able to shrug off a loss such as that.
To summarize: I think that by taking into account fluff as well as the model's tabletop stats, a necron warrior is at least comparable to a space marine, possibly even more powerful.
Every time I have put my green tide down against my friends necron decurion, I have flattened him completely by turn 5.
Even 3++ invulnerable and 4+ reanimation protocols go down to the tide.
Orks win.
r_squared wrote: Every time I have put my green tide down against my friends necron decurion, I have flattened him completely by turn 5.
Even 3++ invulnerable and 4+ reanimation protocols go down to the tide.
Orks win.
This thread is a hypothetical who would win if the orks and necrons were fully United. You cannot disregard fluff, that should be the cornerstone of your argument. In addition, your personal experience with one necron player is not evidence to support the ork argument. If your friend is playing a canoptek harvest Decurion and losing to your green tide, either other aspects of his list (probably a lack of damage dealing units) or his generalship are to blame. I get the feeling you aren't being serious in your post, so I apologize if it seems that I'm taking this thread too seriously. I encourage you to post any evidence you have to support your viewpoint.
This is something else. When all Orks are finely united they conquer the entire universe.
I like to imagine such event as all orks turning their heads with eyes glowing of waaaagh energy to a single point in space responding in unison to the orders of the old ones.
The united orks is one of the doomsday scenarios that are referred to many times in the fluff. The scary part is that when the old ones return to unite / command the orks a large part of the eldar would probably also join in.
The following will be based upon my memory of the initial conditions for the poll results OP disagrees with. IIRC, those were basically that each faction has total unity of purpose in all it's members.
A few counterpoints against the Necrons advantages:
Void - Quantity has a quality all of it's own.
time travel - not a bad trick. It doesn't help if there is no possible set of actions that will give you victory. (see francis grey in the TV show The Batman)
C'tan - All the remaining C'tan acting together don't hold a candle to Mork/Gork. M'Gork canonically beat up Khorn for funsies when they're bored. G'Mork spend most of their time tricking/fighting each other. Easily 90% of current Ork strength is spent against itself in canon.
warp dampeners - Far too few of them. Plus, Orks are not cavemen with green energy that lets them fight science fiction enemies. They are genetically preprogrammed to be genius inventors. They also adapt/improve enemy technologies. Ork teleportation technology is second to none. They have man portable warp hole generators on worlds where they're only fighting imperial forces.
Ork strengths:
spores - largely countered on the battlefield by Gauss weapons. Completely game changing on the hundreds of millions of planets (based on the Imperium [not all of humanity] having roughly a hundred million worlds) vacated by the hordes of orks acting as one charging towards the fight. Those worlds will regrow entire ork populations within years. Necrons, incredible as it sounds, are the faction that will lose this battle of attrition.
gestalt field - frankly, this is a game winner. The psychic might of the Ork race combined easily dwarves that of the elder. United under both Gork and Mork, this energy would, IMO, completely overwhelm any attempt by the necrons to cut off the warp. Sure, their anti- warp tech is implied to be a match for the eye of terror, but the Ork gestalt field dwarfs EoT.
numbers - touched upon in the spores section, this is a big deal. I am going to do a little speculation based on my recollection of the terms of engagement. Necrons, fully awakened, are said to be a force of equal numbers as the Imperium. Many of these necrons are not only not awakened, they are in disrepair and mentally unsound. A non trivial percentage of necron units would be liabilities IMO. Secondly, my understanding of the quote on necron numbers leaves open the interpretation the necron forces (which are about 100% geared for war) would be equal in numbers to the imperium's military, not their entire population.
Tangentially related: does anyone else kind of sort of imagine the board's response to the question as being similar to the factions response to such a conflict? Orks outvoting Necrons despite the Necrons utilizing compelling arguments based on their powers, clever and cunning Ork arguments punctuated by lots of "We win kause we're da Orks! ." The Necrons, upon witnessing their loss, go back in time to fix things/ call a revote?
To springboard off of scrabb's point, Orks do not have strange outlier factions within themselves. There's no factions in Ork society that are hated or ostracized ala Flayed Ones and, to a lesser degree, Destroyers. That is another crack in Necron unity, as they will have a growing portion of their population throwing themselves at flesh or a fight because that's all they want now.
Vaktathi wrote: The answer I believe, is clear. The Orks would win, GW has already flat out stated this to be the case in numerous publications.
In fact, verbatim
Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook wrote:If ever the Orks united as a race, no force in the galaxy could resist them
Counterpoint:
Codex Necrons 5th Edition wrote:Only one hope can now preserve the other races from the Necron's implacable advance, from the endless legions of silent and deathless warriors rising from long-forgotten tombs. If the Necrons can be prevented from waking from waking to their full glory, if the scattered Tomb Worlds can be prevented from unifying, then there is a chance for survival. If not, then the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall reign supreme for eternity.
Vaktathi wrote: The answer I believe, is clear. The Orks would win, GW has already flat out stated this to be the case in numerous publications.
In fact, verbatim
Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook wrote:If ever the Orks united as a race, no force in the galaxy could resist them
Counterpoint:
Codex Necrons 5th Edition wrote:Only one hope can now preserve the other races from the Necron's implacable advance, from the endless legions of silent and deathless warriors rising from long-forgotten tombs. If the Necrons can be prevented from waking from waking to their full glory, if the scattered Tomb Worlds can be prevented from unifying, then there is a chance for survival. If not, then the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall reign supreme for eternity.
I would counter that the Orks in the case of the latter statement are not framed as being a unified force as they are in the OP's question and GW's statements regarding the Orks.
curran12 wrote: To springboard off of scrabb's point, Orks do not have strange outlier factions within themselves. There's no factions in Ork society that are hated or ostracized ala Flayed Ones and, to a lesser degree, Destroyers. That is another crack in Necron unity, as they will have a growing portion of their population throwing themselves at flesh or a fight because that's all they want now.
Mutants and Madboys are shunned.
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Vaktathi wrote: I would counter that the Orks in the case of the latter statement are not framed as being a unified force as they are in the OP's question and GW's statements regarding the Orks.
Well that's a double edged sword, as there is no unified Necron force in the galaxy to oppose the Orks at the moment.
Vaktathi wrote: I would counter that the Orks in the case of the latter statement are not framed as being a unified force as they are in the OP's question and GW's statements regarding the Orks.
Well that's a double edged sword, as there is no unified Necron force in the galaxy to oppose the Orks at the moment.
There's no unified force of either. However, the way I'm reading it, we have a somewhat absolute statement regarding the Orks in that nothing could stop them. With the Necrons, it's more of a galactic re-ordering. The Orks aren't really a great power, they're an uncountable collection of dynamic groups. The Necron statement seems to be framed in the context of how the the various races currently function, while the former statement regarding the Orks was in reference to a more hypothetical (and decidedly unnatural) unified race.
The Necron statement basically has the drawback of appearing to have something of a ceterus paribus standing while the Ork statement appears to be rather more absolute.
Vaktathi wrote: There's no unified force of either. However, the way I'm reading it, we have a somewhat absolute statement regarding the Orks in that nothing could stop them. With the Necrons, it's more of a galactic re-ordering. The Orks aren't really a great power, they're an uncountable collection of dynamic groups. The Necron statement seems to be framed in the context of how the the various races currently function, while the former statement regarding the Orks was in reference to a more hypothetical (and decidedly unnatural) unified race.
The Necron statement basically has the drawback of appearing to have something of a ceterus paribus standing while the Ork statement appears to be rather more absolute.
The Ork statement says that with their unification no force in the galaxy could resist them.
The Necron statement says that with their unification the races of the galaxy would fall and the Necrons would reign supreme for eternity.
I would say the Necron statement is just as if not more absolute than the Ork one, as :
The unified Necron force does not exist in the galaxy, and so we cannot say whether it could resist the Orks or not.
The Necron statement does not care about the condition of the enemy, just the Necrons.
Ffyllotek wrote: Necrons. Every time. Sorry. Big planet machine that can kill stars at the click of a button... vs orcs that use teef for bullets...
Lets not forget that Orks have their own superweapons as well, for every Necron superweapon, there's an Ork psyker that can call down the literal fist of a Warp entity and smash such machines with the raw power of orkiness, or a fleet of Rok's that can be hurled at it.
Tangentially related: does anyone else kind of sort of imagine the board's response to the question as being similar to the factions response to such a conflict? Orks outvoting Necrons despite the Necrons utilizing compelling arguments based on their powers, clever and cunning Ork arguments punctuated by lots of "We win kause we're da Orks! ." The Necrons, upon witnessing their loss, go back in time to fix things/ call a revote?
I fully agree!
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Billagio wrote: Orks for sure. As Scrabb said, Gork and Mork would have their way with the Ctan, not sure how Ctan"counter" gork/mork.
I agree with you rather than the op on this one, C'tan can't stand up to gork/mork unless reunited.
If all necons combined out number the IoM thats ok. Orks would stil outnumber all necrons AND all of mankind COMBINED.
Secondly, time travel only works if your enemy can't see it coming. Divination. Access to the warp means the ability to see around the curvature of time. And those who travel it.
Red Marine wrote: If all necons combined out number the IoM thats ok. Orks would stil outnumber all necrons AND all of mankind COMBINED.
Secondly, time travel only works if your enemy can't see it coming. Divination. Access to the warp means the ability to see around the curvature of time. And those who travel it.
Vaktathi wrote: The answer I believe, is clear. The Orks would win, GW has already flat out stated this to be the case in numerous publications.
In fact, verbatim
Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook wrote:If ever the Orks united as a race, no force in the galaxy could resist them
Counterpoint:
Codex Necrons 5th Edition wrote:Only one hope can now preserve the other races from the Necron's implacable advance, from the endless legions of silent and deathless warriors rising from long-forgotten tombs. If the Necrons can be prevented from waking from waking to their full glory, if the scattered Tomb Worlds can be prevented from unifying, then there is a chance for survival. If not, then the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall reign supreme for eternity.
This clearly counts the Orks as not being "a great power of the galaxy".
As for the time travel... time wars are so... ugh. You know what happens if two time travelling cultures get in a war against each other?
You end up with one of two outcomes: They obliterate the universe through paradox, or they end up sealing themselves outside time entirely.
Furyou Miko wrote: As for the time travel... time wars are so... ugh. You know what happens if two time travelling cultures get in a war against each other?
You end up with one of two outcomes: They obliterate the universe through paradox, or they end up sealing themselves outside time entirely.
Ugh, I hate that time travel is a thing in this setting. Time distortion in the Warp is cool (because it makes sense) but this stuff just breaks the believability of the setting. And if Necrons and Orks can travel... then the Old Ones probably could too... and the Dark Eldar with their high tech toys (mini black holes and stuff) probably could too... And the Emperor could probably figure out a way to do it too... since he did explore the galaxy and stuff by himself... and so on. Actually wait, the setting has perpetuals. Never mind...
I've never seen or heard of time travel being terribly widespread to the point where it is or was a significant component of any race's strategy.
Ghaz has the ability to use toe warp to travel through time currently (in some ways anyway) and some necron have the ability to manipulate time (Orikan) but it it doesn't seem like its a massive effect.
Orks either win or the galaxy is destroyed. Orks are, for all intents and purposes, infinite in number. Every world they step foot on, they seed the soil with new Ork spores. Orks don't have to create a landing spot, erect a city, etc., they only need to crash a hijacked asteroid into the planet and their corpses will begin to seed the planet. Once there, they will devote themselves to a single purpose - war. If united, all of their energies will be directed against the Necrons. The point being, Necrons cannot fight a war of attrition on that scale. No faction can apart from the Tyranids, and to a much lesser extent, I suppose mankind can replicate at a fairly rapid pace. Necrons do not create new Necrons. They will be worn down over time.
The only possible defense that the Necrons would have is to eradicate systems and annihilate all Orks within them. However, this would by necessity result in the destruction of the entire galaxy, as the Orks would never stop coming.
Sword Of Caliban wrote: How are orks in the lead? They are nothing but an irritant to the superior technology and wisdom of the Necrontyr!!''
The Orks were created to fight the Necrons, they have absurdly vast numbers, their own wacky technology, and two mighty Warp entities on the same footing as the Emperor and the Chaos gods they can call upon.
Sword Of Caliban wrote: How are orks in the lead? They are nothing but an irritant to the superior technology and wisdom of the Necrontyr!!''
The Orks were created to fight the Necrons, they have absurdly vast numbers, their own wacky technology, and two mighty Warp entities on the same footing as the Emperor and the Chaos gods they can call upon.
Ah yes, they were created to destroy the Necrons and they did SUCH a good job of that in the first place.
Sword Of Caliban wrote: How are orks in the lead? They are nothing but an irritant to the superior technology and wisdom of the Necrontyr!!''
The Necrons do not strike me as wise. I mean, they've done a lot of betraying.... all of them are bound in tin cans...... most of them are dormant, doing nothing.... plenty of them are running the "I have no mouth and I must scream" deal (the ones who've gone insane).....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, they were created to destroy the Necrons and they did SUCH a good job of that in the first place.
meh. It's hard to kill things that hide. And in the meantime the Orks have become a basically intractable weed in the galaxy. If the Necrons were all that wise they would've killed the Orks while the killing was good.
Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote: That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Surely they would have easily destroyed the Eldar if a single Necron warrior was that powerful.
I agree it's a rather controversial statement, but let me provide a little evidence to back it up. Crunch-wise, Warriors and marines have nearly the same stats. Warriors have higher leadership, but marines have a higher initiative and a better armor save. However, warriors have reanimation protocols, and gauss weapons, while marines only have ATSKNF (I say only, but it's still a very powerful special rule). I think the warrior slightly edges out the marine based on these stats, but they're so close you could certainly make a good argument for the marine.
As for the necrons defeating the eldar, remember that right before the great sleep, the necrons were spent from their fight against the C'tan. Even after the loss of trillions of necrons in a matter of days during the war in heaven and probably the loss of billions more during the betrayal (Afaik there isn't a concrete stat on this), it took the combined onslaught of the eldar, orks, and powerful warp creatures to drive the necrons to hibernation. Iirc, the eldar were also far more populous than they were even before the fall. I'll try to find a direct citation to back that up, but here's some evidence to that effect. The necron 5th ed codex mentions the necrons of Zappanec defeating a massive eldar fleet, one so large it left the entire planet surrounded by orbiting metal for 60 million years. Surely the eldar must have had a truly immense population to be able to shrug off a loss such as that.
To summarize: I think that by taking into account fluff as well as the model's tabletop stats, a necron warrior is at least comparable to a space marine, possibly even more powerful.
Stats mean nothing, they're an abstraction for an illusion of some sort of balance and do not reflect on 40k at all. A couple hundred Space Marines sacked a Tomb World and purged it of its Warriors, and the Black Templars also demolished a Necron Tomb World with their swords (which were not powered). Necrons are indeed incredibly dangerous, but that's just their guns, ships, and esoteric infantry. Basic Necron infantry isn't much to write home about besides the ability to reform themselves after being shot by most weapons.
But the issue is that for all the Orks' ability, they simply have nothing to hold against the Necrons in space, whose ships are as close to invincible as you can get in 40K, and out-shoot everything in it. Especially if the Celestial Orrery can actually be used as a weapon in a suitable timeframe, because getting every star in the galaxy to pop within a couple centuries of each other would set off a salvo of gamma ray bursts that would probably kill all life in the galaxy.
I think I saw something in the Necron Fluff that stated with each death, a necron warrior comes back a little weaker in the sanity department. Would this not greatly weaken their forces over a prolonged stalemate?
Also, in a scenario where orks are fighting only Necrons, I feel like it would make sense for orks to begin adapting necron technology for their own needs once they start looting their defeated foes. While this tech would probably not be as effective, I feel like it would give orks access to a whole new array of deadly toys to fight back with, closing the gap on the whole "Necron technology is better" argument. The same principle would apply to Feral orks gradually adapting imperial tech to overcome AM forces.
Orks are intra-galactic now, which means it's possible that they inhabit not only the milky way, but the trillions of galaxies surrounding the milky way.
Constant war and looting of xenos tech in these other galaxies makes it likely that orks now have tech that makes necron gubbins look like a pointy stick.
Combined with the mind bogglingly vast numbers of trillions upon trillions of orks, swarming towards the boggle eyed tin heads means that they are royally boned.
The situation is exactly like an elderly gay couple, both ex-special forces green beret badasses, enjoying the quite life in their retirement chalet, tending the garden etc.
Unfortunately a bunch of boisterous, rowdy yobbos moves in next door, and start having loud raucous parties and letting their bull terriers gak all over Ronnie and Reggie's beautifully tended front lawn.
R&R go over to their new neighbours to complain, things get out of hand and one of the yobs gets a kick in the bollocks.
The next day, the entire population of the world turns up at Ronnie & Reggie's retirement home, and beat the ever living gak out of our elderly couple, until there is literally nothing left.
I've read the arguments, and I come to this conclusion: Both sides gather all of their forces, and the following war leads to a destroyed galaxy, or destroyed Orks
Reasoning: badassery on both sides aside, if worst comes to worst, the Necrons destroy the galaxy (literally) and move on to a different one. If the Orks from neighboring galaxies decided to hop on board the war in the Milky Way, they either (a) got annihilated with the galaxy or (b) reached the Milky Way and found it to be a lifeless Void with intermittent fields of rubble and shattered stars filling it up.
Basically, it would could go down in one of these scenarios, according the whims of the Fates:
1.) Orks start forming their ultimate WAAAAAGH!!!, and millions of them give their bodies to Gork and Mork (As everybody knows, every Warp Entity needs an ephemeral vessel in order for it to remain on this plane of existence)
2.) Necrons utiliize super weapons along the lines of the World Engine (don't even try to say that they only had one of those, it was the property of a single Dynasty, which only had rule of a single Tomb World, so it only makes sense that artefacts of similar power exist in other, larger Dynasties) along with however many millions of Ships they have to destroy said Vessel before the Orks finish it. They proceed to annihilate the Ork fleets, then begin scouring every Ork System with weapons a la Life Stealer (except a vastly more effective version, because Necrons).
OR
1.) Orks begin building said vessel
2.) Necrons blow up the neighboring star (see: Celestial Orrery)
3.) Necrons systematically eliminate all Ork Systems
OR
1.) Orks finish said vessel, annihilate the Necrons, and then the Necrons go back in time and warn past 'Crons about what happens, past 'Crons hit Orks as soon as the WAAAGH begins forming, annihilate it.
2.) A second ultimate WAAAAGHH!!! brings forth Gork and Mork, annihilates Necrons after centuries of bloody warfare.
3.) Repeat Step One
OR
1.) Necrons realize they have no hope of victory, so they turn Crownworld Thanatos into a second World Engine, leave the galaxy, and blow it to smitherines (see: Celestial Orrery).
OR
1.) G'Mork come into play, a combination of C'tan and the Celestial Orrery lead to their essences being scattered throughout the Warp (this is what happens when a major Warp being has its vessel destroyed, as is common knowledge)
2.) Necron void superiority allows them to systematically scour the rest of the Ork systems.
Note: the only time I can imagine the fourth scenario occurring is the other galaxies' Orks reach the Milky Way in time to assist in the war, though this is a virtual impossibility due to the insanely huge distance between galaxies.
dusara217 wrote: I've read the arguments, and I come to this conclusion: Both sides gather all of their forces, and the following war leads to a destroyed galaxy, or destroyed Orks
Reasoning: badassery on both sides aside, if worst comes to worst, the Necrons destroy the galaxy (literally) and move on to a different one. If the Orks from neighboring galaxies decided to hop on board the war in the Milky Way, they either (a) got annihilated with the galaxy or (b) reached the Milky Way and found it to be a lifeless Void with intermittent fields of rubble and shattered stars filling it up.
Basically, it would could go down in one of these scenarios, according the whims of the Fates:
1.) Orks start forming their ultimate WAAAAAGH!!!, and millions of them give their bodies to Gork and Mork (As everybody knows, every Warp Entity needs an ephemeral vessel in order for it to remain on this plane of existence)
2.) Necrons utiliize super weapons along the lines of the World Engine (don't even try to say that they only had one of those, it was the property of a single Dynasty, which only had rule of a single Tomb World, so it only makes sense that artefacts of similar power exist in other, larger Dynasties) along with however many millions of Ships they have to destroy said Vessel before the Orks finish it. They proceed to annihilate the Ork fleets, then begin scouring every Ork System with weapons a la Life Stealer (except a vastly more effective version, because Necrons).
OR
1.) Orks begin building said vessel
2.) Necrons blow up the neighboring star (see: Celestial Orrery)
3.) Necrons systematically eliminate all Ork Systems
OR
1.) Orks finish said vessel, annihilate the Necrons, and then the Necrons go back in time and warn past 'Crons about what happens, past 'Crons hit Orks as soon as the WAAAGH begins forming, annihilate it.
2.) A second ultimate WAAAAGHH!!! brings forth Gork and Mork, annihilates Necrons after centuries of bloody warfare.
3.) Repeat Step One
OR
1.) Necrons realize they have no hope of victory, so they turn Crownworld Thanatos into a second World Engine, leave the galaxy, and blow it to smitherines (see: Celestial Orrery).
OR
1.) G'Mork come into play, a combination of C'tan and the Celestial Orrery lead to their essences being scattered throughout the Warp (this is what happens when a major Warp being has its vessel destroyed, as is common knowledge)
2.) Necron void superiority allows them to systematically scour the rest of the Ork systems.
Note: the only time I can imagine the fourth scenario occurring is the other galaxies' Orks reach the Milky Way in time to assist in the war, though this is a virtual impossibility due to the insanely huge distance between galaxies.
Just going to pick at that last one.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
C'Tan are not strong enough to stand up to 2 chaos gods. 'Specially since warp is the C'Tan's weakness.
dusara217 wrote: I've read the arguments, and I come to this conclusion: Both sides gather all of their forces, and the following war leads to a destroyed galaxy, or destroyed Orks
Reasoning: badassery on both sides aside, if worst comes to worst, the Necrons destroy the galaxy (literally) and move on to a different one. If the Orks from neighboring galaxies decided to hop on board the war in the Milky Way, they either (a) got annihilated with the galaxy or (b) reached the Milky Way and found it to be a lifeless Void with intermittent fields of rubble and shattered stars filling it up.
Basically, it would could go down in one of these scenarios, according the whims of the Fates:
1.) Orks start forming their ultimate WAAAAAGH!!!, and millions of them give their bodies to Gork and Mork (As everybody knows, every Warp Entity needs an ephemeral vessel in order for it to remain on this plane of existence)
2.) Necrons utiliize super weapons along the lines of the World Engine (don't even try to say that they only had one of those, it was the property of a single Dynasty, which only had rule of a single Tomb World, so it only makes sense that artefacts of similar power exist in other, larger Dynasties) along with however many millions of Ships they have to destroy said Vessel before the Orks finish it. They proceed to annihilate the Ork fleets, then begin scouring every Ork System with weapons a la Life Stealer (except a vastly more effective version, because Necrons).
OR
1.) Orks begin building said vessel
2.) Necrons blow up the neighboring star (see: Celestial Orrery)
3.) Necrons systematically eliminate all Ork Systems
OR
1.) Orks finish said vessel, annihilate the Necrons, and then the Necrons go back in time and warn past 'Crons about what happens, past 'Crons hit Orks as soon as the WAAAGH begins forming, annihilate it.
2.) A second ultimate WAAAAGHH!!! brings forth Gork and Mork, annihilates Necrons after centuries of bloody warfare.
3.) Repeat Step One
OR
1.) Necrons realize they have no hope of victory, so they turn Crownworld Thanatos into a second World Engine, leave the galaxy, and blow it to smitherines (see: Celestial Orrery).
OR
1.) G'Mork come into play, a combination of C'tan and the Celestial Orrery lead to their essences being scattered throughout the Warp (this is what happens when a major Warp being has its vessel destroyed, as is common knowledge)
2.) Necron void superiority allows them to systematically scour the rest of the Ork systems.
Note: the only time I can imagine the fourth scenario occurring is the other galaxies' Orks reach the Milky Way in time to assist in the war, though this is a virtual impossibility due to the insanely huge distance between galaxies.
Just going to pick at that last one.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
C'Tan are not strong enough to stand up to 2 chaos gods. 'Specially since warp is the C'Tan's weakness.
At which point, the Necrons leave the Galaxy in the face of an insurmountable threat, ending the war in a stalemate
Scrabb wrote: But the Orks haven't weaponized time travel the way the Necrons have.
I do have hopes that the Orks will get exposed to said technology and we'll get an epic time travel battle royale.
Omfg yes!
Orks! In! Tiiiiimmmeee! Man would the 'crons learn a thing or two about war in the 41st. The IoMs been trying to scrape the orks off the galaxies collective @zz for ten thousand years. Good luck with yer Dr.Who bs.
(1) I don't think time travel will be used as much as people seem to think it world be. The result would either be so chaotic that the galaxy would get destroyed and nobody wins, or both sides realise that using time travel (especially in any great amounts) will lead to the aforementioned chaos and simply not use it.
(2) Though the Orks were created to defeat the Necrons doesn't simply mean that they will. An over-simplistic explanation as to why is: A saw is designed to cut materials, but the saw can go blunt and no longer be able to cut said materials. In other words, the Orks can still fail.
(3) Orks adapting Necron weaponry seems (to me) to not be as advantageous as people seem to think. It's like saying just because a civilian can pick up the gun of a dead soldier, suddenly he's as good as the soldier. I know this is an oversimplification, but my point still stands.
Ultimately, the Necrons would struggle quite a bit, but they tend to be a lot more organised than Orks. And regardless of how relatively advanced they are, the sheer amount of vast, destructive technologies they possess will still give them an edge.
What I'm saying is: I reckon it'll be close, but the Necrons will come out on top.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
That's a bit of a misnomer since they're warp entities, and thus exist outside time itself. Can't really time travel when you exist in all times simultaneously.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
That's a bit of a misnomer since they're warp entities, and thus exist outside time itself. Can't really time travel when you exist in all times simultaneously.
Also, when they enter this reality, they exit the Warp, do they not?
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
That's a bit of a misnomer since they're warp entities, and thus exist outside time itself. Can't really time travel when you exist in all times simultaneously.
Because they exist at all points they never have to "travel" through time, but they can certainly change/ affect time periods in the past,present, and future.
They CAN cause their minions (ala Ghazghkul) to travel through time though.
There's a reason why there are less Necron players, the army is too depressing.
Even relentless OP buffs that make playing them a doddle for even the most tactically challenged halfwit, still produces less sales, as a whole faction, than the lead chaos toilet miniature from 1983.
Can't blame them for trying though. They could potentially shift a warehouse full of leadbelcher spray paint.
I fully believe Orks cannot be truly defeated. But they could be beat down and thrown to the back-burner. They've (the Necrons) pretty much just learned the galaxy. There's nothing they can't do if they just believe in themsel... nevermind that's Orks.
Orks coming together may be a doomsday-like event, but I get the vibe that Necrons would just be doomsday incarnate. You literally can't even the kind of death the Necrons could lay upon the galaxy... no one can literally even it.
I absolutely agree. They are pretty much the masters of the material realm, with Orks being the perfect link between warp and world. However, have we even known orks to actually summon Gork/Mork into reality in any cohesive manner? The only time the ork gods act is when they want to, and even then, their impact is pretty small. They only time travelled one ork's warband. That's it. Whereas the Necrons actually killed gods.
Plus, we then reach the point of void combat. The orks can't even get close enough to do anything of note. No spores, no Waaagh! energy, nothing. I still can't see why Orks are winning this poll.
(Also, out of curiousity, I can't find anything in recent codexes about the orks being made to kill the Necrons. Could I get a source on that?)
The c'tan weren't Gods, but energy based creatures of the natural realm.
Do the necrons have the ability to kill Gork and Mork, or any of the Chaos gods?
If not, orks win.
So let's say the Necrons beat the orks. Wouldn't they just go back to sleep for another 60 Million years while the orks slowly begin to repopulate? at that point the Necrons will be in the predicament they are in now, not having full numbers as the orks would awake a few tomb worlds at time, giving them a massive advantage in not having to deal with the Necrons in full force. it's a stretch, but I guess the point is that Orks seem pretty much impossible to eradicate. Consider cockroaches in the real world. We have gotten pretty creative in our approach to dealing with them, but ultimately, they are here to stay.
Novasetri wrote: So let's say the Necrons beat the orks. Wouldn't they just go back to sleep for another 60 Million years while the orks slowly begin to repopulate? at that point the Necrons will be in the predicament they are in now, not having full numbers as the orks would awake a few tomb worlds at time, giving them a massive advantage in not having to deal with the Necrons in full force. it's a stretch, but I guess the point is that Orks seem pretty much impossible to eradicate. Consider cockroaches in the real world. We have gotten pretty creative in our approach to dealing with them, but ultimately, they are here to stay.
The Necrons were only pressured into sleep because of the Eldar. The end goal of the Necrons is the extermination of all life. There wouldn't be Orks left to regenerate as Necrons would meticulously expunge every world of organic life. After the Orks they'd move on to the Imperium, then the minor xenos, and finally the Eldar. Once all life as been expunged, they'd enact their final plan by returning to organic bodies. The Necontyr would be rebuilt in a galactic empire with them as the sole survivors, and devoid of any mutations like before.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: (Also, out of curiousity, I can't find anything in recent codexes about the orks being made to kill the Necrons. Could I get a source on that?)
The Old Ones (the guys who genetically engineered half the Sentients in the galaxy) designed the Eldar and the Krork (ancestors of modern Orks) to use the Warp to counter the Necrons. It didn't work. The Necrons and the C'tan roflstomped the species the Old Ones designed to kill them (not that the Old Ones' creations didn't put up a fight, but it's kind of hard to kill things that have power on par with minor Chaos Gods). If you want a source for this, just look up the War in Heaven on the wiki or on lexicanum or 1d4Chan.
This is part of the reason that I say that C'tan Shards (when all are used in conjunction) would be on par with G/Mork. The Old Ones dominated the galaxy through sheer psychic power, and there were millions of them. It's even hypothesized that the Eldar Pantheon was composed primarily of former Old Ones that the Eldar worshiped as Gods (which fed them even more power).They were literally the most Psychically powerful race in all of 40k (numbering in the millions, at least, likely in the billions), and they STILL got curbstomped by the C'tan/Necrons. AND they were supported by the original Orks, Eldar, and dozens of other redonculously powerful psychic races.
Note: Modern fluff doesn't reflect this in the slightest, most of this information comes from old stuff.
It is old fluff by the looks of it. The Necron Lexicanum, mentions no curb stomping. It does mentioned that the necrons were so weakened by their battle against the new races and the old ones, that they buggered off to their tomb worlds. Since then, the Eldar have been steadily destroying each tomb world one after the other.
Also, the fluff states that the tomb world's have been reawakening bit by bit, and are being destroyed by the more vigorous races. Each time they die the necrons become a little more unhinged.
Basically, if the necrons did ever manage to wake up altogether, weren't drooling, lobotimised fuckwits, and some how managed to unite, they would find themselves hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed by every young race going, even without a united ork waaagh.
If there was also an ork waaagh they would be so much dented tin and looted wagon fodder.
We could also imagine a state where the vengeful c'tan after millenia of imprisonment and torture at the hands of the boggle eyed tin heads finally break free of their bondage and wreak a horrific, and we'll deserved vengeance on their erstwhile captors.
r_squared wrote: Basically, if the necrons did ever manage to wake up altogether, weren't drooling, lobotimised fuckwits, and some how managed to unite, they would find themselves hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed by every young race going, even without a united ork waaagh.
Yep, it's made up supposition, just like every other stance and opinion on here.
Pointless discussing it again really.
But still, it's nice to see that orks win, twice. ;-)
No. The arguments of the Ork players are based on desire, whereas the Necron side of the argument is based on fact. Very fitting considering their respective nature, but this is real life, and your desire does not make something become truth here.
What arguments do the Orks even have? That blurb about the Orks winning if they united is matched, because the Necrons have one of those too.
The common argument that the Orks can just summon their gods is not enough. They have never done so before, it remains to be seen whether it is actually something that is at all possible.
Meanwhile, the premise assumes a united Necron empire, which means that Orikan will no longer have a reason to keep his time traveling apparati to himself. That alone secures a necron victory as they have effectively infinite time to eradicate ork, after ork, after ork, after ork, after ork until there is no one left. This is without even approaching the topic of the Celestial Orrery, the absurd Necron spaceships with inertialess drives and so on.
People vote Orks because they want Orks to win, period, not because that would be what actually would happen. Fortunately, mob rule is only a thing on the tabletop.
dusara217 wrote: The Old Ones (the guys who genetically engineered half the Sentients in the galaxy) designed the Eldar and the Krork (ancestors of modern Orks) to use the Warp to counter the Necrons. It didn't work. The Necrons and the C'tan roflstomped the species the Old Ones designed to kill them (not that the Old Ones' creations didn't put up a fight, but it's kind of hard to kill things that have power on par with minor Chaos Gods). If you want a source for this, just look up the War in Heaven on the wiki or on lexicanum or 1d4Chan.
That's not what happened. The main reason the Old Ones lost and the reason the Necrons went into hibernation was the Enslaver Plague, caused by the Old Ones trying to weaponize the Warp. In fact, the Old Ones were winning the war against the Necrons up to that point. As far as I'm aware, all three sources you cited (the lexicanum, wikia, and 1d4 - which doesn't cite sources btw) all agree on that (actually, the old Necron codex does too - most of the fluff is from that codex).
dusara217 wrote: This is part of the reason that I say that C'tan Shards (when all are used in conjunction) would be on par with G/Mork. The Old Ones dominated the galaxy through sheer psychic power, and there were millions of them. It's even hypothesized that the Eldar Pantheon was composed primarily of former Old Ones that the Eldar worshiped as Gods (which fed them even more power).They were literally the most Psychically powerful race in all of 40k (numbering in the millions, at least, likely in the billions), and they STILL got curbstomped by the C'tan/Necrons. AND they were supported by the original Orks, Eldar, and dozens of other redonculously powerful psychic races.
Note: Modern fluff doesn't reflect this in the slightest, most of this information comes from old stuff.
Where are the Old Ones' numbers ever mentioned in fluff? And again, the Old Ones were close to defeating the Necrons, not the other way around. But they fethed up the Warp in the process.
Ashiraya wrote: Of course, that the Old Ones were doing good against the Necrons doesn't really say anything about the Necrons, only about the Old Ones.
The Old Ones and their creations. And that the Necrons didn't "crubstomp/roflstomp" the Old Ones, which is just blatantly false. It also means the Necrons, while powerful, aren't as all powerful as some are making them out to be.
The Necrons are also one-dimensional and boring. That's in the old fluff. I don't even know what they're doing anymore in the new fluff. If they were powerful enough to defeat the Old Ones and trap the C'tan in shards, why can't they find (or make, as the Old Ones would) a suitable species for biotransference?
Ashiraya wrote: Of course, that the Old Ones were doing good against the Necrons doesn't really say anything about the Necrons, only about the Old Ones.
The Old Ones and their creations. And that the Necrons didn't "crubstomp/roflstomp" the Old Ones, which is just blatantly false. It also means the Necrons, while powerful, aren't as all powerful as some are making them out to be.
Or it proves how extremely mighty the Old Ones were.
Ashiraya wrote: I am not surprised that united Orks and united Eldar and the Old Ones were pushing back the Necrons.
Here's what happened:
Necrons fought Old Ones. Old Ones were winning. Necrons begged C'tan for help. Old Ones created several species to fight back. Old Ones were winning again, but then the Enslaver Plague happened, and everybody lost.
Necrons use tech and the C'tan (or, since we're talking old fluff, the C'tan use Necrons and their tech), Old Ones use their powers of creation. Implying that the Necrons were more powerful than the Old Ones is god-modding.
Ashiraya wrote: I am not surprised that united Orks and united Eldar and the Old Ones were pushing back the Necrons.
Here's what happened:
Necrons fought Old Ones. Old Ones were winning. Necrons begged C'tan for help. Old Ones created several species to fight back. Old Ones were winning again, but then the Enslaver Plague happened, and everybody lost.
Necrons use tech and the C'tan (or, since we're talking old fluff, the C'tan use Necrons and their tech), Old Ones use their powers of creation. Implying that the Necrons were more powerful than the Old Ones is god-modding.
You've got some mistakes in that synopsis, let me clear them up.
The necrontyr declared war on the old ones to stop the wars of secession. Despite their superior numbers and tech, they got massacred because of the old one's superior maneuverability and warp powers. The necrontyr were driven back, but the old ones were either too merciful, to uncaring, or to arrogant to finish them off. The second wars of secession started, and the necrontyr appeared to be completely fethed.
At this point, the necrontyr encountered the C'tan, or the C'tan found them, there is contradictory fluff about this. The deceiver offered to help them fight the old ones, and grant the necrons immortality (which they had coveted for millennia). This resulted in the necrontyr being turned into the necrons. At this point, the tide of the war turned. The old ones were fethed after the necron breached the webway. In desperation, they tried to unleash the endlaver plague, which just accelerated the end of the war.
This is all paraphrased from the 5th Ed necron codex.
Basically, the necrons did better than you are giving the credit for, and it isn't a stretch to say that they were more powerful than the old ones.
Ashiraya wrote: I am not surprised that united Orks and united Eldar and the Old Ones were pushing back the Necrons.
Here's what happened:
Necrons fought Old Ones. Old Ones were winning. Necrons begged C'tan for help. Old Ones created several species to fight back. Old Ones were winning again, but then the Enslaver Plague happened, and everybody lost.
Necrons use tech and the C'tan (or, since we're talking old fluff, the C'tan use Necrons and their tech), Old Ones use their powers of creation. Implying that the Necrons were more powerful than the Old Ones is god-modding.
You've got some mistakes in that synopsis, let me clear them up.
The necrontyr declared war on the old ones to stop the wars of secession. Despite their superior numbers and tech, they got massacred because of the old one's superior maneuverability and warp powers. The necrontyr were driven back, but the old ones were either too merciful, to uncaring, or to arrogant to finish them off. The second wars of secession started, and the necrontyr appeared to be completely fethed.
At this point, the necrontyr encountered the C'tan, or the C'tan found them, there is contradictory fluff about this. The deceiver offered to help them fight the old ones, and grant the necrons immortality (which they had coveted for millennia). This resulted in the necrontyr being turned into the necrons. At this point, the tide of the war turned. The old ones were fethed after the necron breached the webway. In desperation, they tried to unleash the endlaver plague, which just accelerated the end of the war.
This is all paraphrased from the 5th Ed necron codex.
Basically, the necrons did better than you are giving the credit for, and it isn't a stretch to say that they were more powerful than the old ones.
Seems like the 5th ed codex changed the fluff, adding in the Wars of Secession. I guess the Necrons really are that OP in the new fluff.
Which means, I was wrong, according to the 5th codex retcon. Sorry dusara! (you did say old fluff!)
So now the Necrons went into hibernation because of the Eldar (yes, yes, weakened fighting the C'tan, I know)? The old fluff had them go into hibernation because the Enslavers Plague meant the C'tan didn't have enough to feed on - much more interesting.
OP or not, imo the Necron fluff is a mess. It makes the Old Ones seem like idiot pushovers, whereas they were god-like in the old fluff. And stuff like the pylons on Cadia don't really make sense with the new fluff (it's implied that they were put there by the C'tan/Necrons to push back the Warp - which was their greatest weakness in the War in Heaven).
There seems to be an assumption that Necrons are going to go over every square inch of a planet, vaporizing the dirt to prevent any trace of ork spores coming back. If we are looking at "untold billions" of Necrons, we have to consider that there are billions of inhabitable worlds. Are they going to cleanse each world of spores? what if they miss a cave or something? are they going to have some guys hang around for 10 years to make sure the orks are really dead? How much time does it even take to cleanse an entire planet of spores? Forget about planets, you also have moons, asteroids, & orks in the warp to think about.
So Gauss weapons will vaporize orks preventing them from releasing spores? In the majority of artwork out there, a gauss flayer has a relatively narrow beam of fire compared to the size of an Ork. They'll vaporize a lot of the orks body, there will still be plenty of spores released upon death. Even if they go back over a battlefield and completely destroy the bodies, the spores are airborne and being carried away to other areas.
It just seems unfeasible for Necrons maintain an efficient enough kill / death ratio when orks are reproducing like rabbits, & every necron death, though rare, it's pretty much a permanent loss. Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall a blurb about orks having untold numbers, outnumbering all other intelligent races. Not sure if that is combined or not.
Also, while the time travel argument for Necrons is valid, we have to take into account that there could be unknown parameters we don't know about. You are opening the door for some devastating consequences in the form of a paradox, which may very well be the reason why that technology is not being shared in the first place. Can you imagine if even 1,000 Necrons had time travel devices? you could only hit the reset button so many times before the universe implodes on it'self.
Ashiraya wrote: No. The arguments of the Ork players are based on desire, whereas the Necron side of the argument is based on fact. Very fitting considering their respective nature, but this is real life, and your desire does not make something become truth here.
r_squared wrote: About an ever changing fantastical, completely imaginary fluff that changes on a whim, without any consistency.
No facts here buddy, just wild conjecture and opinion.
Incorrect.
There are facts, ones that no amount of opinion change. Much like with Ork belief, I can believe that there is an Ork that is Titan sized, and killed the emperor. I can believe that Horus is now the new leader of the Imperium, leads an army of ponies to exterminate the half-Tau Ultramarines.
But you all know that is false. No evidence, and destroyed by other pieces of more valid data.
In new codices, our most valid form of said data, there is little mention of Orks being built to kill Necrons, much less by the Old Ones themselves.
Necrons are portrayed as far deadlier creatures with supremely advanced tech.
Pretty much all Ork victories in this thread consist of summoning G/Mork (a feat NEVER ACTUALLY PERFORMED) or blatant hyperbole or metagaming (to use an equivilant term).
Except when the fluff is changed, again.
Most of the necron "facts" in this thread have been cherry picked from differing versions of fluff, or online "truthisms".
There is one "fact" that is constant. GW have categorically, and consistently stated. Orks win, fact. Double, double fact, no backsies.
:-D
r_squared wrote: There is one "fact" that is constant. GW have categorically, and consistently stated. Orks win, fact. Double, double fact, no backsies.
:-D
I do not know how many times it has been repeated that this has been stated for the Necrons as well so both statements cancel out each other, but ignoring that does not really matter to me.
Ashiraya wrote: No. The arguments of the Ork players are based on desire, whereas the Necron side of the argument is based on fact. Very fitting considering their respective nature, but this is real life, and your desire does not make something become truth here.
What arguments do the Orks even have? That blurb about the Orks winning if they united is matched, because the Necrons have one of those too.
The common argument that the Orks can just summon their gods is not enough. They have never done so before, it remains to be seen whether it is actually something that is at all possible.
Meanwhile, the premise assumes a united Necron empire, which means that Orikan will no longer have a reason to keep his time traveling apparati to himself. That alone secures a necron victory as they have effectively infinite time to eradicate ork, after ork, after ork, after ork, after ork until there is no one left. This is without even approaching the topic of the Celestial Orrery, the absurd Necron spaceships with inertialess drives and so on.
People vote Orks because they want Orks to win, period, not because that would be what actually would happen. Fortunately, mob rule is only a thing on the tabletop.
I take three things from the many conflicting accounts of the war in heaven:
1. The Necrons are sons of bitches, but also a broken force.
2. most of the C'tan are dead.
3. Whatever the objectives or actions of the past, the results of said conflicts was the Orks expanding beyond known space and the Necrons going into stasis/weakening.
But the main point I disagree with in your post is this one:
the common argument that the Orks can just summon their gods is not enough. They have never done so before, it remains to be seen whether it is actually something that is at all possible.
Recently, it has been shown that M'Gork have been taking a keen interest in Orkiod affairs. There is indirect evidence that G'Mork have been planning on doing exactly that.
Remember, this question is not "which faction is going to succeed at their goals given a continuation of current events." This is a "full throttle, who wins?" Full throttle, the Ork gods are in reality and really the warp is a bigger deal than the Necrons. (IMO. The warp is kind of a big thing that makes 40k, 40k to me.)
In keeping with your 40k fan type, you lack imagination.
Ashiraya wrote: I am not surprised that united Orks and united Eldar and the Old Ones were pushing back the Necrons.
There are more than a dozen and a half species that aided the Old Ones that we know of (there were probably more). Eldar and Krork were only some of them, not even close to a majority; they just happened to adjust the best to the Old Ones' absence
1. The Necrons are sons of bitches, but also a broken force.
The Necrons were united under the Silent King prior to hibernating in the face of the nascent Eldar Empire (this was actually how they succeeded in freeing themselves of the C'tan
2. most of the C'tan are dead.
Actually, the C'tan were fractured into thousands of tiny pieces. A single shard of has mindshattering levels of power. To illustrate, I'll use a bit from the novel Mechanicum about a shard of the C'tan known as the Void Dragon:
Spoiler:
Though her eyes told her that the walls of the cavern were impossibly distant, her brain could not mesh what she was seeing and whater mind was processing.
The angles were impossible, the geometry was insane. Distance was irrelevant and perspective a lie. Every rule of normality was turned upside down in an instant and the natural order of the universe was overthrown in this new, terrifying vision of distorted reality. THe cavern seemed to pulse in every direction at once, compressing and contracting in unfeasible ways, moving as rock was never meant to move.
This was no cavern. Was this entire space, the walls and floor, the air and every molecule within it, part of some vast intelligence, a being or construct of ancient malice and phenomenal, primeval power?....
It was everywhere and nowhere at once. All powerful and trapped at the same time.
The monstrous horror of its very existence threatened to shatter the walls of her mind...
This, a shard of a purely physical being of purely physical energies and power, has an effect that only Gods of the Warp and the most powerful Shards of those Gods (aka, Greater Daemons) have been noted as having (of course, the effect of beings like the Bloodthirster Khabanda and other Greater Daemons is far less pronounced). And the Necrons have access to thousands of these things; enslaved to the will of the Necron Lords.
3. Whatever the objectives or actions of the past, the results of said conflicts was the Orks expanding beyond known space and the Necrons going into stasis/weakening.
You are comparing completely different circumstances and expecting the outcomes to be similar. If the Orks were to suddenly gain a modicum of superhuman intellect, fight a galaxy-shattering war with galaxy-shatteringly powerful beings, and then suddenly have an alliance of species dedicated to your annihilation that's spearheaded by an Empire of insanely powerful psychics after winning said war, then they probably would have gone into hibernation as well.
But the main point I disagree with in your post is this one:
the common argument that the Orks can just summon their gods is not enough. They have never done so before, it remains to be seen whether it is actually something that is at all possible.
Recently, it has been shown that M'Gork have been taking a keen interest in Orkiod affairs. There is indirect evidence that G'Mork have been planning on doing exactly that.
Remember, this question is not "which faction is going to succeed at their goals given a continuation of current events." This is a "full throttle, who wins?" Full throttle, the Ork gods are in reality and really the warp is a bigger deal than the Necrons. (IMO. The warp is kind of a big thing that makes 40k, 40k to me.)
I agree. G'Mork entering the Materium is a very distinct possibility. However, the amount of organic matter required to house such beings would be mindbogglingly huge. They would need hundreds of thousands of Wierdboyz to house their consciousnesses, or, at the very least, an insanely powerful host of Alpha Plus Plus Plus Plus Plus level Psychic powers. This is the kind of thing that can be stopped from occurring with the kinds of super powers that Necrons have. Regardless of the fact that a large enough WAAAAGGH!!! can bring them into the material plane, they would be incapable of remaining without some kind of host (this is a well-established fundamental of Warp beings in general, so I won't even bother citing it)
In keeping with your 40k fan type, you lack imagination.
I beg to differ. I have seen Ashiraya demonstrate more than adequate amounts of imagination. Also,
@Engulfed Object: lol, for me 5th ed is old fluff . Probably an oversight on my part, sorry.
On the Old One population: There is no fluff source for this, however, in order for a species, like the Old Ones, to dominate a galaxy composed of billions of planets, they would need, at the very least, a few hundred million members of the species, though, realistically, it would be closer to a few hundred billion (or even trillion). This is just common sense, to me, that they had a few hundred billion members of the species, though I mentioned million because they were such a powerful species, and might not have bred as rapidly as humans do (and they had virtual immortality, which probably discouraged them to breed too much).
Thing is, Orks can hide out in the Warp. I don't think Necrons can even enter the Warp, certainly the Ctan can't. So no matter what, Ork have a fail safe. In fact, one of the major Ork empires even stretches into the Eye of Terror.
Of course, an Ork victory would involve crushing all the pylons and allowing the warp to flood into reality and send the galaxy into eternal Chaos, but hey, that's probably the way they would prefer it.
Delicate Swarm wrote: Thing is, Orks can hide out in the Warp. I don't think Necrons can even enter the Warp, certainly the Ctan can't. So no matter what, Ork have a fail safe. In fact, one of the major Ork empires even stretches into the Eye of Terror.
Of course, an Ork victory would involve crushing all the pylons and allowing the warp to flood into reality and send the galaxy into eternal Chaos, but hey, that's probably the way they would prefer it.
Is it just me, or are Orks just Daemons in disguise?
r_squared wrote: There is one "fact" that is constant. GW have categorically, and consistently stated. Orks win, fact. Double, double fact, no backsies.
:-D
I do not know how many times it has been repeated that this has been stated for the Necrons as well so both statements cancel out each other, but ignoring that does not really matter to me.
r_squared wrote: There is one "fact" that is constant. GW have categorically, and consistently stated. Orks win, fact. Double, double fact, no backsies.
:-D
I do not know how many times it has been repeated that this has been stated for the Necrons as well so both statements cancel out each other, but ignoring that does not really matter to me.
1. The Necrons are sons of bitches, but also a broken force.
The Necrons were united under the Silent King prior to hibernating in the face of the nascent Eldar Empire (this was actually how they succeeded in freeing themselves of the C'tan
I meant physically broken. The Necrons that were damaged in stasis, the tomb worlds destroyed by Eldar and Imperium forces, the commanders that lost their sanity, etc.
2. most of the C'tan are dead.
Actually, the C'tan were fractured into thousands of tiny pieces. A single shard of has mindshattering levels of power. To illustrate, I'll use a bit from the novel Mechanicum about a shard of the C'tan known as the Void Dragon:
Spoiler:
Though her eyes told her that the walls of the cavern were impossibly distant, her brain could not mesh what she was seeing and whater mind was processing.
The angles were impossible, the geometry was insane. Distance was irrelevant and perspective a lie. Every rule of normality was turned upside down in an instant and the natural order of the universe was overthrown in this new, terrifying vision of distorted reality. THe cavern seemed to pulse in every direction at once, compressing and contracting in unfeasible ways, moving as rock was never meant to move.
This was no cavern. Was this entire space, the walls and floor, the air and every molecule within it, part of some vast intelligence, a being or construct of ancient malice and phenomenal, primeval power?....
It was everywhere and nowhere at once. All powerful and trapped at the same time.
The monstrous horror of its very existence threatened to shatter the walls of her mind...
This, a shard of a purely physical being of purely physical energies and power, has an effect that only Gods of the Warp and the most powerful Shards of those Gods (aka, Greater Daemons) have been noted as having (of course, the effect of beings like the Bloodthirster Khabanda and other Greater Daemons is far less pronounced). And the Necrons have access to thousands of these things; enslaved to the will of the Necron Lords.
So 100% of the C'tan still exist and are under the Necron's control? I could have sworn some C'tan ate it or at least were rendered unrecoverable. Fair enough.
3. Whatever the objectives or actions of the past, the results of said conflicts was the Orks expanding beyond known space and the Necrons going into stasis/weakening.
You are comparing completely different circumstances and expecting the outcomes to be similar. If the Orks were to suddenly gain a modicum of superhuman intellect, fight a galaxy-shattering war with galaxy-shatteringly powerful beings, and then suddenly have an alliance of species dedicated to your annihilation that's spearheaded by an Empire of insanely powerful psychics after winning said war, then they probably would have gone into hibernation as well.
Bit of a miscommunication there. I wasn't claiming the Orks 'won' or 'were better than' the Necrons at that point. I'm saying that since said display of awesome power the Necrons have diminished. Left to their own devices the Orks have flourished.
I would parallel the relationship between the Eldar empire and the IoM with the Necron empire and the Orks:
1. empire grows
2. empire peaks
3. catastrophe
4. empire goes into obscurity
5. new power grows
Just observing the trend here.
But the main point I disagree with in your post is this one:
the common argument that the Orks can just summon their gods is not enough. They have never done so before, it remains to be seen whether it is actually something that is at all possible.
Recently, it has been shown that M'Gork have been taking a keen interest in Orkiod affairs. There is indirect evidence that G'Mork have been planning on doing exactly that.
Remember, this question is not "which faction is going to succeed at their goals given a continuation of current events." This is a "full throttle, who wins?" Full throttle, the Ork gods are in reality and really the warp is a bigger deal than the Necrons. (IMO. The warp is kind of a big thing that makes 40k, 40k to me.)
I agree. G'Mork entering the Materium is a very distinct possibility. However, the amount of organic matter required to house such beings would be mindbogglingly huge. They would need hundreds of thousands of Wierdboyz to house their consciousnesses, or, at the very least, an insanely powerful host of Alpha Plus Plus Plus Plus Plus level Psychic powers. This is the kind of thing that can be stopped from occurring with the kinds of super powers that Necrons have. Regardless of the fact that a large enough WAAAAGGH!!! can bring them into the material plane, they would be incapable of remaining without some kind of host (this is a well-established fundamental of Warp beings in general, so I won't even bother citing it)
hundreds of thousands you say? So less than 1% of their wierdboys.
And no, I very strongly disagree that is the sort of thing the Necrons can stop. Again, the warp, IMO, is going to have more power than science in 40k. This philosophical difference may be the core of our disagreement.
In keeping with your 40k fan type, you lack imagination.
I beg to differ. I have seen Ashiraya demonstrate more than adequate amounts of imagination. Also,
Normally I find that meme funny, but the special effects don't do it for me.
I was responding to said poster's assertion that every argument in favor of the Ork faction was made out of a desire to win, as opposed to the arguments for the Necrons, which were based on fact.
Perhaps I'm just a crazy person, but I would think perhaps we're looking at self selecting samples of the fandom, if you will. People who believe in brute force and unshakable conviction as the real power are going to vote for Orks and perhaps find them a compelling faction. People who believe in science and inevitability would perhaps gravitate towards the Necrons.
Perhaps people can honest to goodness look at the same facts and come to different conclusions. Perhaps.
r_squared wrote: There is one "fact" that is constant. GW have categorically, and consistently stated. Orks win, fact. Double, double fact, no backsies.
:-D
I do not know how many times it has been repeated that this has been stated for the Necrons as well so both statements cancel out each other, but ignoring that does not really matter to me.
When have we known GW to do subtle? Either way, it still states it in the Necron Codex. In fact, pretty much all codexes state that their faction is the best, and if given the chance, would steamroll other factions. The question is, which is more likely. You say undivided orks do, but undivided Orks vs undivided Necrons should, in theory, play out just the same as divided Orks vs divided Necrons: Necrons still win.
Also, very cute post. Seems to reinforce Ashiraya's point all the more.
And since when have OP codexes made GW squat a faction? There are several degrees of wrongness with that entire statement.
Adding on from Delicate Swarm's post, since when have we ever known orks to wilfully hide in the Warp? Or just orks hiding in general? Seems a little odd of ork behaviour.
Also I'd like to remind people that every single C'tan shard destroyed only hastens the return of the Star Gods to their full power. Each shard destroyed releases the C'tans essence, which goes to rejoin the slowly reforming C'tan embryo.
Wyzilla wrote: Also I'd like to remind people that every single C'tan shard destroyed only hastens the return of the Star Gods to their full power. Each shard destroyed releases the C'tans essence, which goes to rejoin the slowly reforming C'tan embryo.
Killing the Necrons only damns you.
I thought the C'tan were tricked into their shells by the Necrons. Wouldn't they then become enemies with each other given a reincarnation?
And you Necron players need to get your C'tan shard stories straight.
Wyzilla wrote: Also I'd like to remind people that every single C'tan shard destroyed only hastens the return of the Star Gods to their full power. Each shard destroyed releases the C'tans essence, which goes to rejoin the slowly reforming C'tan embryo.
Killing the Necrons only damns you.
I thought the C'tan were tricked into their shells by the Necrons. Wouldn't they then become enemies with each other given a reincarnation?
And you Necron players need to get your C'tan shard stories straight.
No, with the return of the C'tan the Necrons would enter their old slave protocols and be cast into shackles again with the return of their gods to power.
Scrabb wrote: So how many of these shards have been destroyed?
None? A few? Several?
I second this. I"ve never heard of this bit of fluff, is there a source for it, or is it head canon (I really just want to read about it)? afaik, the Necrons would have destroyed the C'tan, had they been able to, and shattering them was the best the Silent King could do.
Scrabb wrote: So how many of these shards have been destroyed?
None? A few? Several?
As far as I know, none. We only know that one C'tan, the flayer, was completely destroyed during the betrayal rather than separated into shards.
Also, here's a little fluff from the 7th Ed necron codex (will post page number if requested) regarding the power of a C'tan shard. Sometime in the 700s m41, a shard of the void dragon escaped from its prison in the Arotepk dynasty. The shard then proceeded to destroy 12 planets before finally being recaptured by a group of crypteks. 1 C'tan shard, of which there are many thousands in the galaxy, destroyed 12 planets and nearly brought the Arotepk dynasty to its knees (and the Arotepk aren't pushovers, they themselves smashed through a large force of craft world eldar and harlequins just for a little gemstone, but I digress). Don't underestimate the C'tan. Even though they have no warp connection and are only fractions of their former selves, they can still lay waste to vast amounts of space.
Now as many ork supporters will no doubt argue, this could go both ways, don't the C'tan and necrons hate each other? Now that would be a good point, but remember that this thread assumes both factions are totally united.
My point was, I'm not really sure why people are assuming that Gork and Mork are the only Ork gods.
Orks are psychic, and have a connection to the warp. I mean, do you really think, that in an event as cataclysmic as all Orks vs. all Necrons, the Chaos Gods would just sit idle? This is the exact kind of event that would lead to them uniting(the last time they were stated to do so was during the Horus Heresy). Whenever the Chaos Gods are threatened, they respond. And Necrons most certainly are a threat to Chaos, since a Necron victory would end all life and seal the Warp off, returning it too its natural state from before the War in Heaven, which Chaos does not want.
Of course Chaos would have no choice but to back up the Orks. And this Chaos is not the same Chaos from the War in Heaven. 40k Chaos has grown sentient. It is so chaotic, it bursts into reality constantly.
Orks can worship Chaos. And they can survive in the Warp just fine (see:Tuska the Daemon Killa). The Ctan cannot. When Reality meets Warp, the Warp wins.
Delicate Swarm wrote: I mean, do you really think, that in an event as cataclysmic as all Orks vs. all Necrons, the Chaos Gods would just sit idle?
Yes, because this scenario is orks United vs necrons united. Not orks + chaos vs necrons.
Even in a realistic end of times scenario, where the whole galaxy is involved, I don't think chaos would side with the orks. Khorne especially would probably be happy about all the fighting going on, but chaos would want to destroy reality altogether.
But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Actually, this is taking place inside a vacuum. The question is specifically Orks vs. necrons. The Ork Gods, G'Mork, are the Gods of Orkiness, and are made up entirely of Ork souls, which is why they are counted in this discussion. Khorne, slaanesh, etc. are amalgams of the souls of Eldar, Humans, Nicassar, etc. They are transpecies Gods, and don't really have anything to do with Orks, aside form dicking around with them and running experiments on them.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: And while that would suck for the Necrons, it would still be preferable to destruction.
Not really, considering they'd be mindless slaves again.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: And while that would suck for the Necrons, it would still be preferable to destruction.
Not really, considering they'd be mindless slaves again.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: And while that would suck for the Necrons, it would still be preferable to destruction.
Not really, considering they'd be mindless slaves again.
Depends on how you view death
Not really because a non-sentient organism doesn't care either way, as it is physically incapable of appreciating anything.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Actually, this is taking place inside a vacuum. The question is specifically Orks vs. necrons. The Ork Gods, G'Mork, are the Gods of Orkiness, and are made up entirely of Ork souls, which is why they are counted in this discussion. Khorne, slaanesh, etc. are amalgams of the souls of Eldar, Humans, Nicassar, etc. They are transpecies Gods, and don't really have anything to do with Orks, aside form dicking around with them and running experiments on them.
Actually the Chaos gods do feed off of Orks, especially Khorne. As you say, they are transpecies, they can feed off of, and back, champions of any race. Khorne is even said to possess Orkish features, because of all the Orks that die in his name.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
To be honest, that's kind of what I meant.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
And uniting all orks isn't restructuring? All orks fighting on the same side is far more ridiculous, and yet the scenario is both factions united, restructuring is a necessary byproduct of that process. And I don't think C'tan are equatable to DE slaves. C'tan are in game units from the necrons faction. DE slaves are from a variety of different factions, depending on where they came from.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
And uniting all orks isn't restructuring? All orks fighting on the same side is far more ridiculous, and yet the scenario is both factions united, restructuring is a necessary byproduct of that process. And I don't think C'tan are equatable to DE slaves. C'tan are in game units from the necrons faction. DE slaves are from a variety of different factions, depending on where they came from.
You're right about the slaves/=/C'tan in gameplay terms. Hell, some of the DE slaves might even be having a good time.
However, the C'tan have been unwillingly drafted into service by the betrayal of their slave race, the Necrons. It is established Ork fluff that Waaghs unite them. That is hardly more ridiculous than the C'tan forgiving the Necrons.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
Necrons dont' free C'tan Shards. Necrons enslave them and force them to fight for their Necron Overlords.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
Necrons dont' free C'tan Shards. Necrons enslave them and force them to fight for their Necron Overlords.
I was responding to the poster that was hopeful a reconstituted C'tan (shards destroyed and restructured) would fight for the Necrons. I am in complete agreement with you.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that in this scenario, all other factions are taken out of the picture, either due to defeat or some other reasoning. Theorizing from this assumption, this means GMork have gained considerable market share within the warp, as there are no more gods to contend with. This could lead to a few major advantages for the orks.
1. Mastery over the warp. Orks would be better able to navigate the warp, and possibly even become inhabitants. Orks would now have a completely seperate reality to muster forces in, and be able to better navigate the warp for spontanious attacks against the necrons. They would essentially transition similar to how chaos space marines did.
2. We could assume that GMork are going to get pretty bored without having Khorn to punch in the face. This could lead to the push for being summoned into reality.
3. GMork are so powerfull because they do not create their own daemons. They hold all of the power to themselves because bigger is better! But what about when that boredom sets in? Could we see the rise of "chaos orks" to aid in the plan to bring gmork into reality? In my mind these orks would not be "chaos" as we are use to, since their appeariance would be greatly determimed by the gods overall aestetic.
As always, its pure conjecture, but I think these are valid speculations if we look into the history of the warp and factions like chaos space marines or dark eldar.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that in this scenario, all other factions are taken out of the picture, either due to defeat or some other reasoning. Theorizing from this assumption, this means GMork have gained considerable market share within the warp, as there are no more gods to contend with. This could lead to a few major advantages for the orks.
1. Mastery over the warp. Orks would be better able to navigate the warp, and possibly even become inhabitants. Orks would now have a completely seperate reality to muster forces in, and be able to better navigate the warp for spontanious attacks against the necrons. They would essentially transition similar to how chaos space marines did.
2. We could assume that GMork are going to get pretty bored without having Khorn to punch in the face. This could lead to the push for being summoned into reality.
3. GMork are so powerfull because they do not create their own daemons. They hold all of the power to themselves because bigger is better! But what about when that boredom sets in? Could we see the rise of "chaos orks" to aid in the plan to bring gmork into reality? In my mind these orks would not be "chaos" as we are use to, since their appeariance would be greatly determimed by the gods overall aestetic.
As always, its pure conjecture, but I think these are valid speculations if we look into the history of the warp and factions like chaos space marines or dark eldar.
And I'd say that brings this match into worst case scenario. Necrons inevitably lose, so they blow up the galaxy for the ultimate (sentence finished in spoiler)
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that in this scenario, all other factions are taken out of the picture, either due to defeat or some other reasoning. Theorizing from this assumption, this means GMork have gained considerable market share within the warp, as there are no more gods to contend with. This could lead to a few major advantages for the orks.
1. Mastery over the warp. Orks would be better able to navigate the warp, and possibly even become inhabitants. Orks would now have a completely seperate reality to muster forces in, and be able to better navigate the warp for spontanious attacks against the necrons. They would essentially transition similar to how chaos space marines did.
2. We could assume that GMork are going to get pretty bored without having Khorn to punch in the face. This could lead to the push for being summoned into reality.
3. GMork are so powerfull because they do not create their own daemons. They hold all of the power to themselves because bigger is better! But what about when that boredom sets in? Could we see the rise of "chaos orks" to aid in the plan to bring gmork into reality? In my mind these orks would not be "chaos" as we are use to, since their appeariance would be greatly determimed by the gods overall aestetic.
As always, its pure conjecture, but I think these are valid speculations if we look into the history of the warp and factions like chaos space marines or dark eldar.
Wow. That was good.
Orks are already established in the warp.
The warp has a complicated relationship with time.
And I'd say that brings this match into worst case scenario. Necrons inevitably lose, so they blow up the galaxy
Do they though? Its not like they just get to flip a switch and kill everything. Systematically destroying every star is goig to take time & resources not to mention create a huge target for the orks to go after. As orks do, many will run to the closest battle just for a good fight, but there will be leaders out there like ghazy shifting the gaze to the real threats.
I could be wrong on this, Necrons could have a bunch of these star killers with unlimited free ammo and no restrictions on their rate of fire, but that seems unlikely.
Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Delicate Swarm wrote: Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Which means stalemate. This might be the one matchup that actually ends in a stalemate.
Delicate Swarm wrote: Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Which means stalemate. This might be the one matchup that actually ends in a stalemate.
Delicate Swarm wrote: Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Which means stalemate. This might be the one matchup that actually ends in a stalemate.
." The Necrons, upon witnessing their loss, go back in time to fix things/ call a revote?
