So a buddy of mine plays Tau, I play Chaos and Daemons. He suggested nerfing the Riptide himself, because in our games the only way I win is to just completely ignore it, and when he runs two no one, from any army, can win. He suggested lowering its toughness to 5, like most every monstrous creature, and its wounds to 4, like most everything else. I was wondering what your guys' opinions would be on it.

I'm going to go with a hammer again.

I'd remove the option for nova charging a 3+ invul save. Riptides main strength is how obnoxiously durable they are while still have solid damage and mobility. The durability in part is because it gets a 3++ and FNP making it incredibly hard to actually get wounds through (since even with ap2 it still is getting almost a 2+ save overall). Without the 3++, ap2 actually becomes an option to inflict some wounds (and it still is going to have 5++ and FNP).

How to make Riptide reasonable? Use it in 2000+ pts matches, if at all.

I think both the Riptide and Wraithknight are underpriced for what they can do, and it's interesting that they both came out relatively close together.

WK needs something like a 100 point increase, but the Riptide only needs a 15 point increase. It should start at 200 points and go from there.

What the tide lacks though is speed. It can maneuver, but a Knight or a bunch of grav bikes can reach it no problem.

I'm pretty sure grav weapons were made specifically to counter units like the WK and Riptide, but not every army has them, but then again, those that don't either have units that can beat a riptide to death in CC (daemons or CSM) or shoot it to death (Eldar and SM).

At least the Stormsurge is properly priced for what it does.

I have a vendetta against random Invul. Saves on big creatures - The thing with them were that they should have high Toughness and many Wounds, which means you have to dedicate big guns to them, like Plasma Cannons or Lascannons. But with Invul. saves, that just plain means nothing, since their big bonus is ignored completely. That doesn't improve with FNP either.

I think I'd be more interesting if the shield had another effect instead - What if the Armour save was reduced to a 3+, but its Shield made it so that enemy AP values are increased by one when targetting the 'Tide (So AP 2 becomes AP 3). This would make a Battle Cannon unable to ignore the Armour (For a close encounter suit, that's properbly a good thing) but would still take wounds from Lascannons and Meltas.

Is it just a special 2+ save? Yeah. But at least the standard save isn't fukken Terminator-grade.

I think the simplest fix would probably be to simply change their armor to a 3+. That puts them in the same ball park as Tyranid MCs, but they'll still have the option to get an invul and FNP. Which seems reasonable to me. Ask any marine player, and he'll tell you how easy it is to fail a 3+ save. Making it a 3+ save also means a larger variety of weapons will ignore the save entirely. The invul and FNP still make it pretty durable, but you risk hurting yourself to get that 3+ save, and FNP, while very nice, isn't reliable at all.

Making their armor save a 3+ leaves the riptide in the same niche without taking away their toys or requiring that people come up with complicated new rules (fun as those are), but it still brings down the riptide's durability quite a bit.

Plus considering that the Stormsurge is also a 3+, this does make more sense overall...

I'd agree on the 3+ save but not the toughness. Most MCs are actually T6, the Daemon Prince is rather odd at T5, though there are a few others (the Tau Ghostkeel, Tyranid Harpy/Crone come to mind offhand). Most Tyranid MCs are also W5 or W6. W4 is actually kinda uncommon, too (though Eldar, Necrons and DE all get some W3 MCs, but those are T7/T8).
I'd also lose the nova-charge 3++ and replace it with "Gain Counter-Attack until the next game turn" or something akin to that.

Do note that the Riptide does have a sort of defense against grav-guns: shielded missile drones will give the unit a majority 4+ armor save. They're expensive, though, and not all that difficult to kill, so...

Honestly one of the things they should have changed to make hammerhead tanks be able to compete on some level with suits was to swap the Ion Cannon from the Hammerhead with the Ion Accelerator from the Riptide. Now the Hammerhead has a pretty good base weapon compared to the Railgun and has extra utility with the gets hot! S8 AP2 large blast. At the same time this nerfs the output of the riptide to a much more reasonable degree and compensates for their ridiculous degree of survivability. It also actually forces them to be risky for nova charges to make the ion cannon do more damage while also making it so that the HBC isn't completely invalidated.

 Grimskul wrote:
Honestly one of the things they should have changed to make hammerhead tanks be able to compete on some level with suits was to swap the Ion Cannon from the Hammerhead with the Ion Accelerator from the Riptide. Now the Hammerhead has a pretty good base weapon compared to the Railgun and has extra utility with the gets hot! S8 AP2 large blast. At the same time this nerfs the output of the riptide to a much more reasonable degree and compensates for their ridiculous degree of survivability. It also actually forces them to be risky for nova charges to make the ion cannon do more damage while also making it so that the HBC isn't completely invalidated.

The railgun is a staple weapon of the Tau, and it really isn't that good anymore. If it had Lance, it would be a legitimate option instead of what it is now.

The Tide is about 50ish points undercosted. The ion accelerator another 30-40 when put on that chassis. When it came out, it was crazy good, but nowadays there are plenty of models just as OP.

 McNinja wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Honestly one of the things they should have changed to make hammerhead tanks be able to compete on some level with suits was to swap the Ion Cannon from the Hammerhead with the Ion Accelerator from the Riptide. Now the Hammerhead has a pretty good base weapon compared to the Railgun and has extra utility with the gets hot! S8 AP2 large blast. At the same time this nerfs the output of the riptide to a much more reasonable degree and compensates for their ridiculous degree of survivability. It also actually forces them to be risky for nova charges to make the ion cannon do more damage while also making it so that the HBC isn't completely invalidated.

The railgun is a staple weapon of the Tau, and it really isn't that good anymore. If it had Lance, it would be a legitimate option instead of what it is now.

Oh for sure, the railgun is only "okay" if you take Longstrike and at that point its no longer cost efficient. I was surprised they didn't give it armourbane or even ordnance.

Okay, this is going to be a bit on the longer side of things so bare with me here. The problems with the Riptide are actually more on a design side than the actual numbers involved with it. It’s problematic design inherently makes it binary to balance because it will either be amazing or terrible and there isn’t really an in-between. They are also not on the defensive side, as most would have you believe, but on the offensive one. First, you have two main weapon choices where one is clearly superior to the other nine times out of ten - Bad. The offending weapon in question is way too generally effective against everything, has too much range, and has a particularly egregious use case scenario - Interceptor Iontide anyone? Second, it’s unique mechanic is poorly balanced in that it’s different options don’t offer even remotely equal benefits.

- 3+ invuln: hell yes.
- 4d6 thrust move: situational but useful.
- 2 shots with the secondary: again situational and less useful.
- main weapon novacharge options: almost always bad.

With things set up this way is it any surprise that the user will pretty much always use the shield when they Nova Charge?

So, how do we actually fix this? Well first, let’s look at the Riptides design paradigm. The three big stompy suits Tau now have are clearly meant to be uber versions of their smaller cousins. Riptide = Crisis Suit+1. Ghostkeel = Stealth Suit+1… etc. The problem is that the riptide is it’s commonly taken form does not actually fill a similar role. Instead, it’s basically a super tanky artillery platform. This is a terrible design paradigm because it’s optimal use scenario encourages minimal if any interaction with your opponent - BAD. I mean, Crisis Suits don’t actually get many complaints because at least your opponent can react to them in a meaningful way with their short range. Therefore, my changes will focus on trying to push the Riptide into a Crisis+1 role and create meaningful choice and interaction for both the player and the opponent.

1. Base price becomes 210 points and stats are unchanged and both main weapon options are free to choose between. This makes the 'decked out' Interceptor FNP Riptide everyone fears 250 points.

2. The weapon profiles for the two main guns are changing to have unique roles. The HBC stays the same with the exception that it’s Nova Charge profile loses Gets Hot. The weapon is actually really well balanced as is except for that fact which is why no one ever Nova Charges it because having your weapon now have twelve chances to Get Hot on you after you just had to roll a one in three chance for it with only your FNP is just a poor risk/reward system. The IA gets a much bigger change. It becomes 36’ range/S9/AP2/Heavy 3 and loses its overcharge profile. The Nova Charge version becomes Heavy 5.

Here is the idea behind these changes:
The cost has been upped to the point that, combined with the changes to their offensive options, they are not strictly the most point efficient on offense with their base weapons compared to other options in the Tau codex. This means they are less likely to be spammed and better fit into a ‘more defense/less dakka’ role that the big stuff on the board should represent.

The changes to the IA have now pushed its use into heavy hunting with it being bad at infantry and hordes. With the HBC now being a good choice rather than a strictly inferior one, the two weapons now become specialized for the role you want your Riptide to fill. This also has a nice effect of making the secondary weapon system choice on the Riptide far more important than it currently is. The 36’ max range on both main guns also puts you within a much more reasonable distance of the enemy. In fact, given the low shots on a IA and the S6/AP4 profile on the HBC, you are now going to need to actually use your secondary weapons to get good killing power for the points out of these guys. That means being close enough to actually be within decent charge range. This creates much better risk/reward.

Finally, the ridiculous tankyness of the model is fixed indirectly by removing a lot of it’s offensive punch and increasing its points cost. Nova Charging should be amazing and make your opponent sweat. The problem is that Riptides are currently too effective without ever using it offensively. With these changes, you need to be overcharging your guns to be getting your points worth of dakka from this model. This creates actual choice for the player. Everything I’m changing is to create risk/reward and interaction with your opponent.

 ObjectivelyBiased wrote:
SNAP

Very interesting thought. Exalted.

Turn it into a vehicle, walker, with 13 Front and Side Armor, and Rear 12 armor. 5++ save if you want.

Do something similar to every other MC out there that should not be a MC, i.e. Wraithknights, Dreadknights and the like. Let only actual "monstruous creatures" be MCs and have MC rules.

I'd even make the MC status an upgrade option for Daemon Princes, not even mandatory. Daemon Princes should go back to what they were in 3rd edition.

Really, most of the Riptide's strengths comes from hte fact that it's an MC. I'm in the "Make it a Walker" camp too, at this point... I'd want it to be 12 all around instead, though, mostly because it's very tough to decide what sides are front and such. It would be cool of the Shield gave a higher AV on the side it's placed on, though.

I do think it'd be better to make the Explodes! result into 1d3 HPs, mostly to make it less perilous for a HP 6 Walker to get hit by a powerful weapon. Would also help some of the other Vehicles, especially things like Trukks.

 ObjectivelyBiased wrote:
<snip>
1. Base price becomes 210 points and stats are unchanged and both main weapon options are free to choose between. This makes the 'decked out' Interceptor FNP Riptide everyone fears 250 points.

2. The weapon profiles for the two main guns are changing to have unique roles. The HBC stays the same with the exception that it’s Nova Charge profile loses Gets Hot. The weapon is actually really well balanced as is except for that fact which is why no one ever Nova Charges it because having your weapon now have twelve chances to Get Hot on you after you just had to roll a one in three chance for it with only your FNP is just a poor risk/reward system. The IA gets a much bigger change. It becomes 36’ range/S9/AP2/Heavy 3 and loses its overcharge profile. The Nova Charge version becomes Heavy 5.
<snip>

I really like this idea overall and might just try it as a house rule in my next few games (hey, we're probably testing a massively house-ruled Dark Eldar setup anyway, so...). It fits pretty closely with how I like to run the Riptide anyway, which I think is why I hear very little complaining from most of my opponents. Hammernators, Genestealers, Harlequins, Fire Dragons and that sort of thing deal with it pretty well, provided you can get close enough to use them - and, if it's sitting back in the corner pie-plate-puking with the ion accelerator, you can't. That leaves many armies almost unable to deal with the Riptide at all, or having to use up all their anti-tank just to dent it. Forcing it to operate up closer, generally within range of most high-volume guns and possibly within charge range does make it easier to handle, but still effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:
Turn it into a vehicle, walker, with 13 Front and Side Armor, and Rear 12 armor. 5++ save if you want.

Do something similar to every other MC out there that should not be a MC, i.e. Wraithknights, Dreadknights and the like. Let only actual "monstruous creatures" be MCs and have MC rules.

I'd even make the MC status an upgrade option for Daemon Princes, not even mandatory. Daemon Princes should go back to what they were in 3rd edition.

My beef with this is that now, you need S7 just to even maybe hurt it, whereas the current T6 version can be hurt by lasguns (OK, barely, but I have actually lost a Riptide to Prescience+Misfortune+FRFSRF) . Also, there are currently no such things as Jump or Jet Pack walkers. The Wraithknight could be a superheavy and just get Deep Strike, and that would be that, but for the rest, you'd need new rules or it'd be a big nerf. Ok, MCs can't be pinned, but walkers can't either. It would lose Smash. That's probably significant for the Wraithlord and Wraithknight. The Riptide sucks in melee anyway, even with AP2, and the Dreadknight has AP2 weapons anyway.

If we're gonna change types, make it Jet Pack Infantry.

Making it Jet Pack Infantry and thus losing some of the inherent MC cheese would be only a partial solution, I'm afraid, because all in all a Riptide would still be a vehicle with "flesh" rules (wounds and all that). It's a freaking robot controlled by a pilot. It should have never been a Monstruous Creature, because it's no "creature" to begin with.

My biggest concern with overpowered MCs in the game is that most of them should not be MCs. The current divergence between walker vehicles and the so called "monstruous creatures" is one of the examples that prove what an utter mess the current rules are. We have bipedal robots with vehicle rules, side by side with bipedal robots with MC rules, and absolutely nobody has ever been able to logically explain why (despite the most ardent efforts of the most ardents GW white knights). Furthermore, bipedal robots with MC rules are so much better in game terms that bipedal robots with vehicle rules, as they cannot be exploded, inmobilized, have their weapons destroyed or be forced to fire snap-shots. Also while they're a bit easier to "wound", they have armor saves and as such in the end are way more resilent and durable. Further on, thanks to the smash rule, they don't even need close combat weapons to always strike with AP2. If I pay extra points to give a dreadnough two mid/long range shooting weapons, or if its cc weapons are destroyed during the battle, it's stuck with a few AP- attacks. MCs never face such bothers, they're always 100% operative no matter the odds.

This was already a bit difficult to digest from actual living, monstruous creatures, but now we basically have two kind of bipedal robots ingame: the ones who kick ass, and the ones who suck ass. And the main, big difference between them is the label "MC" arbitrarily slapped over some of them.

I personally think that the vehicle rules, as they currently stand, are incoherent and a giant mess from hell. I'd prefer to see everything using Toughness and Wounds (or, call them Hull Points, Durability Points, whatever makes sense; I agree that "Wounds" for a vehicle sounds weird). Then have "vehicle" as a special rule and Melta, Armorbane, Fleshbane, Poisoned etc modified accordingly, lose the Damage Chart (fluffy, but a pain in the neck) and replace "double Toughness is ID" with "double Toughness is 2W".

 Korinov wrote:
Making it Jet Pack Infantry and thus losing some of the inherent MC cheese would be only a partial solution, I'm afraid, because all in all a Riptide would still be a vehicle with "flesh" rules (wounds and all that). It's a freaking robot controlled by a pilot. It should have never been a Monstruous Creature, because it's no "creature" to begin with.

My biggest concern with overpowered MCs in the game is that most of them should not be MCs. The current divergence between walker vehicles and the so called "monstruous creatures" is one of the examples that prove what an utter mess the current rules are. We have bipedal robots with vehicle rules, side by side with bipedal robots with MC rules, and absolutely nobody has ever been able to logically explain why (despite the most ardent efforts of the most ardents GW white knights). Furthermore, bipedal robots with MC rules are so much better in game terms that bipedal robots with vehicle rules, as they cannot be exploded, inmobilized, have their weapons destroyed or be forced to fire snap-shots. Also while they're a bit easier to "wound", they have armor saves and as such in the end are way more resilent and durable. Further on, thanks to the smash rule, they don't even need close combat weapons to always strike with AP2. If I pay extra points to give a dreadnough two mid/long range shooting weapons, or if its cc weapons are destroyed during the battle, it's stuck with a few AP- attacks. MCs never face such bothers, they're always 100% operative no matter the odds.

This was already a bit difficult to digest from actual living, monstruous creatures, but now we basically have two kind of bipedal robots ingame: the ones who kick ass, and the ones who suck ass. And the main, big difference between them is the label "MC" arbitrarily slapped over some of them.

Because GW realized that vehicle rules suck ass in this game.

Aside from that, following the logic that a battlesuit is a MC, what would a Crisis suit be? If it is infantry, why would something that is simply a larger crisis suit not be an MC? Unless you want to make crisis suits walkers as well, it's simply GW being consistent. For once.

Crisis are infantry because, although big, they're still within the realms of "humanoid" sizes. They're infantry just because Terminators are infantry.

A Riptide is not humanoid sized. It's a freaking mecha, with its pilot and all that. It's freaking huge. The Broadside should be a walker too, as long as Dreadnoughts are.

The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

The 2+ is fine because its an heavy assault suit. It shouldn't be 3+ because its doesn't rely on stealth and it doesn't have a hole in the roof of the cockpit, Also it has a massive shield which has to count for something.

For durability I'd just say don't let it take FNP. I run my Riptide without FNP cause I'm not TFG and therefore don't use the nova reactor much and opponents have killed it plenty of times with plasma and AP2 CC weapons. Remove FNP, nova reactor is more dangerous, less 3++.

As for the weapons, remove Gets Hot from the burst cannon so people actually use it and maybe reduce the range of the ion accelerator down to about 30" instead of 72" to make it less like artillery.

At least without FNP the riptide shouldn't be a problem.

Taffy17 wrote:
The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

The 2+ is fine because its an heavy assault suit. It shouldn't be 3+ because its doesn't rely on stealth and it doesn't have a hole in the roof of the cockpit, Also it has a massive shield which has to count for something.

For durability I'd just say don't let it take FNP. I run my Riptide without FNP cause I'm not TFG and therefore don't use the nova reactor much and opponents have killed it plenty of times with plasma and AP2 CC weapons. Remove FNP, nova reactor is more dangerous, less 3++.

As for the weapons, remove Gets Hot from the burst cannon so people actually use it and maybe reduce the range of the ion accelerator down to about 30" instead of 72" to make it less like artillery.

At least without FNP the riptide shouldn't be a problem.

I think this is a viable option! We'll run a few games with it and see how it works out

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The Tide is about 50ish points undercosted. The ion accelerator another 30-40 when put on that chassis. When it came out, it was crazy good, but nowadays there are plenty of models just as OP.

Really lol? You think it should be 270 without any upgrades? Thats absurd. That is approaching imperial knight / wraith knight point range


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:
Crisis are infantry because, although big, they're still within the realms of "humanoid" sizes. They're infantry just because Terminators are infantry.

A Riptide is not humanoid sized. It's a freaking mecha, with its pilot and all that. It's freaking huge. The Broadside should be a walker too, as long as Dreadnoughts are.

Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

CrownAxe wrote:I'd remove the option for nova charging a 3+ invul save. Riptides main strength is how obnoxiously durable they are while still have solid damage and mobility. The durability in part is because it gets a 3++ and FNP making it incredibly hard to actually get wounds through (since even with ap2 it still is getting almost a 2+ save overall). Without the 3++, ap2 actually becomes an option to inflict some wounds (and it still is going to have 5++ and FNP).

Personally, i almost never use the 3++ save. Ever. I think ive done it once in the past year or so and that was because i was facing Eldar wraithspam. Outside that, i never feel i need it. My iontides virtually never use nova charge.

And that right there is what i think is the problem. Bursttide is balanced because he has a huge risk vs reward. The gun is meh without nova charge, damn good with it but with 12 Gets Hot threats (yes that does go through 2+ armor when theres THAT many of them). Whenever i field a bursttide, typically 2 of his wounds vanish to nova fails and he gets picked off when my opponent notices hes hurting.

The problem to me isnt the model itself, its the ion accelerator. ion Weapons are pretty much identical outside rate of attack and rifles being slightly weaker, but the IA is the ONLY ONE that is AP2 for some reason even without Overcharge or Novacharge.

The IA should be nerfed to AP3 with normal shots / Overcharge, and require the Novacharge to get AP2. It shouldnt be stock better than the Ionhead's weapon considering the gun is the same size and uses the same type of technology (ion), but due to the Nova Reactor it should have potential to be better at a risk of losing a wound. The fact that it pens all armor without nova charge risk is a bit much.

 Crimson Willy wrote:
How to Make the Riptide Reasonable

Step 1: Buy C:SM
Step 2: Use that as a substitute CSM codex
Step 3: Grav Cents "Obliterators" in Drop Pods.

The riptide isn't that bad off, mostly it is the jsj it has and the interceptor upgrade that make it seem unfair.

Also, you get armor saves against gets hot. So the twelve shots should get you two 2+ saves to make at best. Not that big a deal.

Wraithknight is too cheap, but it should definitely remain a creature. It has living would powering it and no form of engine or mechanical bits operating in any fashion. The riptide and nemesis dreadnaught can go with walker though. Riptide would be 12/12/11 with 5 hullpoints if you wanted it to do what it does as a walker.

Taffy17 wrote:The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

notredameguy10 wrote:Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

At the end of the day a Riptide is a giant robot with a humanoid pilot inside. I don't see why it should be labeled any different than a IG Sentinel. Both of them should be walker vehicles. The higher mobility and agility of the Riptide can be easily represented ingame with better movement abilities and certain perks (i.e. can only receive shots at the rear if inmobilised).

I understand Tau players simply do not want to part ways with their cheese, but no matter how you look at it, either all of the giant robots are walkers or all of them are MCs. Specially when MCs have far superior rules if compared with equivalent vehicles.

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

notredameguy10 wrote:Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

At the end of the day a Riptide is a giant robot with a humanoid pilot inside. I don't see why it should be labeled any different than a IG Sentinel. Both of them should be walker vehicles. The higher mobility and agility of the Riptide can be easily represented ingame with better movement abilities and certain perks (i.e. can only receive shots at the rear if inmobilised).

I understand Tau players simply do not want to part ways with their cheese, but no matter how you look at it, either all of the giant robots are walkers or all of them are MCs. Specially when MCs have far superior rules if compared with equivalent vehicles.

If that was the case marines should be using vehicle rules too since they are in powered suit that emp should be able to destroy. How about necrons too? The game designers did mentioned how they used vehicle rules before to try out the suits but couldn't find a way to fit them the way they envisioned how it would perform therefore they made it the way it is.

And also, its not that the riptide is unreasonable, its just that chaos marines aren't as great now. Daemons are still fine though, and you can win him without any nerfs easily if you have the right target priority. Kill his markerlights, and stay in cover. Summon more daemons to capture objectives or send screamers to force him to target it. Play to objectives and you will start to realise, even a riptide has to be forced to charge sometimes.

Make it an 13/12/12 4Hp Jump pack walker
That should fix it.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Make it an 13/12/12 4Hp Jump pack walker
That should fix it.

As stated several times, the vehicle rules aren't good, don't accurately represent the actual battlesuits, and would actually make it HARDER to kill.

Give grav weapons to IG and CSM, and we're good to go on the Tau front.

 McNinja wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Make it an 13/12/12 4Hp Jump pack walker
That should fix it.

As stated several times, the vehicle rules aren't good, don't accurately represent the actual battlesuits, and would actually make it HARDER to kill.

I still think that multi wound models should have a critical hit table similar to vehicles it would fix a lot. It would not only close the gab but also end the whole my foot is in cover ruling.
This thing and all the other walker-monsters are clearly a vehicles with pilots, no mather how much you big suits fans like it to be a living thing
And I'm 100% sure that at least my armies have less difficulties killing walkers / vehicles then they have in killing monsters. I have never instagibbed monsters with a bunch of melta (bombz), while vehicles explode all the time/

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

notredameguy10 wrote:Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

At the end of the day a Riptide is a giant robot with a humanoid pilot inside. I don't see why it should be labeled any different than a IG Sentinel. Both of them should be walker vehicles. The higher mobility and agility of the Riptide can be easily represented ingame with better movement abilities and certain perks (i.e. can only receive shots at the rear if inmobilised).

I understand Tau players simply do not want to part ways with their cheese, but no matter how you look at it, either all of the giant robots are walkers or all of them are MCs. Specially when MCs have far superior rules if compared with equivalent vehicles.

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Also as a Tau player I do not see the riptide as cheese, however I will say a riptide with FNP rolling for the 3++ every turn is cheese, hence why I don't take stim injectors.

Please don't generalise all Tau players as reluctant, stubborn, cheese abusing monsters.

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Jup I completely agree they should be walkers. It not just tau

 oldzoggy wrote:

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Jup I completely agree they should be walkers. It not just tau

So do you think the riptide, wraithknight and dreadknight should be vehicles or super heavy vehicles?

Everyone has ways of killing things like landraiders these days, they'd need saves and special rules and things like that to compensate for not being monstrous creatures.

Taffy17 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Jup I completely agree they should be walkers. It not just tau

So do you think the riptide, wraithknight and dreadknight should be vehicles or super heavy vehicles?

Everyone has ways of killing things like landraiders these days, they'd need saves and special rules and things like that to compensate for not being monstrous creatures.

Yes I think so , and no they would not need any saves or special abilities to compensate it. Walker Gun platforms approximately the cost of expensive landraiders should be just as easy to kill if not easier to kill.
There is no reason at all that your ~200-300 point model should have more guns and be tougher then an landraider or an Ork walker costing approx the same points.

Ok, so say you make a riptide an AV12,12,12 walker with a 2d6 jump move and the ability to fire in any direction alongside its current stat line things like heavy bolters can no longer hurt it, plasma guns wound it on 5s instead of 3s but also have a chance to insta kill it.

I don't really think its fair that it's immune to small arms fire but i also don't believe it should be quite so vulnerable to anti tank.

Maybe you could introduce a rule called 'tough' which -1 from the vehicle damage table result and also give it some kind of repair/it will not die.

I think this may be too complicated though, maybe it'd be easier to just introduce a Monstrous creature damage table?

If you exceed the number required to wound a MC role on this table adding one for AP2 and 2 for AP1.
-5 is shaken
-6 is stunned
-7 loose an additional wound in addition to stunned
-8 loose 2 additional wounds in addition to stunned

You could use this for GMCs as well

Making any of our suits a walker would either remove it from the game because it can be glanced to death via small arms with little effort or it would become broken as hell because it would be immune to small arms.

Riptide being less than 13/12/12 would remove its front-line tank role, and being at that value would make it even more tanky than it already is. Yes it gives it Explode! problems but how often does that actually happen anyway? I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them, even with a hammerhead. None of them have an invul save either, and the Riptide would still have its 5++ with nova to 3++. Do you really want a 13/12/12 walker with a 3++ walking around?

Theres a reason Tau suits werent walkers and shouldnt be walkers. I stand by what i said earlier that the problem is the IA not the riptide itself.

I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them

If this is true then I don't believe that you actually own and or play with your 4000 points of orks (or tau.. )

Oh nooo, a unit that can be defeated by using weapons on it that designed to kill it? What a horrifying idea!

The idea that a model need some kind of additional save beyond its standard defenses is just obscene - what makes this thing more worthy of a save than a Dreadnought, or a Predator? Because it's big and looks cool? That was the Dread in earlier editions, and look where we are now.

Things die in this game. All the time, by the turn, you'll lose more and more units, with you having little say in it. That's why people take many units in twos or threes, and why Squadrons make pretty good sense for the most part - your models isn't meant to survive. If they do, congratulations, you were good enough to keep it safe. Otherwise, it's just the reality if it. It's the game.

Some people really gotta try playing Orks

So when it comes down to it, giving the Riptide 12/12/12 and 5 HP should be around fair. It'll be targetted by any heavy weapon in the game, but that's the price you pay for bringing an overly large model - if you wanted stealth, why didn't you pick Crisis Suits? Besides, the Riptide was designed to draw fire, so have that.

If it should have ANY extra defenses, it should be something for the Shield - maybe a native 6++, combined with it reducing all damage by 1 S in the Front and Side archs?

IA is the worst problem, but the Riptide is still too durable for its points.

 oldzoggy wrote:

I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them

If this is true then I don't believe that you actually own and or play with your 4000 points of orks (or tau.. )

What does that have to do with explode results? Even destroyer weapons need a 5+/6+ to explode a vehicle and only have 1 chance at it, theyre more likely to glance it to death with the excess damage.
MANz missiles are the only thing i have that usually causes an explosion, and their track record is still vastly in favor of glanced to death vs exploded.

My siggy numbers are a tally of what i have. Ive never played beyond 3000pts, i just can because i like mixing things up so i own more than i need for a 2k game.

@OP have you tried optimizing your list with some daemon cheese? What about that cover buffed flying blood thirster swinging a D weapon? Dead riptide every turn...

Vineheart01 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them

If this is true then I don't believe that you actually own and or play with your 4000 points of orks (or tau.. )

What does that have to do with explode results? Even destroyer weapons need a 5+/6+ to explode a vehicle and only have 1 chance at it, theyre more likely to glance it to death with the excess damage.
MANz missiles are the only thing i have that usually causes an explosion, and their track record is still vastly in favor of glanced to death vs exploded.

My siggy numbers are a tally of what i have. Ive never played beyond 3000pts, i just can because i like mixing things up so i own more than i need for a 2k game.

Agreed. Tau have alot of weapons that can glance vehicles to death reliably. 3 good shots is better than 1 lucky shot, and we can get probably 12 str 7 twin linked shot compared to 2 str 10 shot which is worse when a space marine battle company can be deployed in a normal pointage game. The game is structured to the point where reliable glancing hits is way better at the moment.

@oldzoggy, I think you're probably the one who don't play as much as @vineheart

And trust me as a tau player when I say there are more than 3 ways to nullify riptides.

I just remind you that you have force weapon.

i think the main reason these giant suit types are being labeled as MC is because they really are that, they are larger versions of the infantry, wraithknights are extra big wraith units, dreadknights are extra big marines, riptides are extra big crisis, but here the thing, demons princes are just big demons, tyranid MCs are just bigger bugs, they all have the same thing in common. they are meant to handle like bigger versions of infantry. Walkers are not, they are meant to handle like clunky machines.

As far as fixing the riptide? honestly just reducing the IA's range and losing ap2 without nova or just losing the IA altogether and add a nova charge profile onto the cannon and increasing the price a little is all that is needed. Although i do kind of like the long winded risk reward dude. It made sense while I was reading it.

And what about Daemon Engines? There really is no reason behind the difference besides 'GW thought it'd be cooler' or 'MCs are better'.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And what about Daemon Engines? There really is no reason behind the difference besides 'GW thought it'd be cooler' or 'MCs are better'.

^ This. It is just because it is better and tau and eldar are armies played by players who like to have models who are really good.
I suspect that this is secretly the real reason why tau and eldar are that much more powerful the last years then lets say orks.
There are different kinds of players and there are different kinds of armies suited for them. How powerful an army is might as well be taken into account for that.

On exploding stuff and the way I play.
True my orks have not left my shelf in half a year but. I play quite a lot both on vassal transporting digital orks is that much simpler, and in the real world mostly small games with inq + imperial allies.
It is rare to not see a single vehicle explode in a game.

Things that I use to kill stuff with.
Drop pod Melta guns.
Melta bombz on henchmen and tank busta's
Power klaws, power fists, High str ap2 deamon swords, and thunder hammers (not that often but it happens)
servitor ap1 claws ( this rarely happens )

Things I do not use to kill vehicles
Bolters, rokkits or anything else that has a crappy Ap. Why? it is just wasted on them, that stuff should shoot at other things such as marines.

Armies I face regularly.
Necrons
Tau
Marines
Guards
Eldar
Tyranid
Orks

Now lets go deeper into that.
Necrons -> All most all open topped
Tau -> Almost never brings vehicles, its just suits in a corner
Marines -> rhino's and landraiders are closed but drop pods are open
Guards -> Transports closed but all most all artillery is open
Eldar -> closed and usually too fast or protected by shenanigans to get to it,
Tyranids -> No vehicles
Orks -> All most all open topped

If I would have to guess I would say that approx 60% of the games I play with vehicles my opponent has some open topped ones.
Now lets do the math on them.

Open topped +1 & Ap1 +2 = +3
So on a 4+ those weapons roll an explode result. This happens a lot in my games.
So I would say that In approx 40-50% of all my games vehicles explode not counting my own trukks and drop pods.
And I'm quite sure that If someone truly played orks he or she would not take the stance that vehicles are never to explode since somehow ork transports always seem to do

In most of the cases, it's easier to wreck the vehicle than to explode it.
Especialy, if you are SM player.

Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.

Why not just double the hull points of all vehicles excluding super heavies? I they'd be a heck of a lot harder to glance to death, but still possible, and anti armour weapons would have a much bigger place.

At the same time you could add in a (gargantuan) monstrous creature damage table like this...
If you exceed the number required to wound a MC role on this table adding one for AP2 and two for AP1.
-5 is shaken
-6 is stunned
-7 loose an additional wound in addition to stunned
-8 loose 2 additional wounds in addition to stunned

And now the difference between a LR and a Baneblade is 1 HP...

If you up the HP of some vehicles, you're gonna need to do it to all/most of them, even SH.

Superheavies need it as much as regular vehicles. Like i said, you can theoretically kill a superheavy in 3 shots but aside from Str D or ID you literally cannot kill a GMC with less guns than it has wounds. And it has just as many wounds as a SHV has HP.

Now i think 18hp would be a bit bonkers, so maybe +1/2 to supers rather than double. 13/14hp is a lot to go through, pretty much requiring the additional Explode! damage to take down. May not seem like much more than an 8HP Landraider or 10HP Gorkanaut, but remember those two die to 1 explode result while the Baneblade doesnt.

And now im getting off topic lol this is about the Riptide not vehicles.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Superheavies need it as much as regular vehicles. Like i said, you can theoretically kill a superheavy in 3 shots but aside from Str D or ID you literally cannot kill a GMC with less guns than it has wounds. And it has just as many wound as HP.

A Punisher Gatling Cannon can theoretically do 20 wounds to a GMC... So... Not literally...

Ap1 causes an additional wound to monstrous creatures, ordinance causes d3 wounds if they fail a save.

Ooh, nice

Now, if the Vanquisher could just be Ap1 Ordnance, and if LRBT could have LB back...

I don't think you can say the riptide is bad and other things like the Wraithknight aren't. If your fixing one you have to fix the other.

Also is the problem monstrous creatures being good or vehicles being bad?

I just think don't let it take FNP and people will be more reluctant to use the nova for the 3++ meaning its easier to kill. You could also reduce the IA range to 30". There you go, the riptide is suddenly what its supposed to be.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.

I agree with a lot of this. I would still think that Explodes! should to D3 HP (in addition to the one HP made by penetrating), so a lucky roll of 6 won't remove a model like a Land Raider immediatly. Also, 8 HP for a Land Raider may be too much - 6 would do.

Rest - Completely agree. The thin Tau suits should be the glass cannons, and the tanks the... Well, tanks.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.

I agree with a lot of this. I would still think that Explodes! should to D3 HP (in addition to the one HP made by penetrating), so a lucky roll of 6 won't remove a model like a Land Raider immediatly. Also, 8 HP for a Land Raider may be too much - 6 would do.

Rest - Completely agree. The thin Tau suits should be the glass cannons, and the tanks the... Well, tanks.

Tau suits have never been glass cannons in game or in fluff, they've always been the elite heavy infantry of the Tau and should be big tough and scary. I'll say again 3++ is a bit much for a riptide though and I believe if you remove the FNP people would be less keen to use the nova reactor and it wouldn't be too OP.

Taffy17 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.

I agree with a lot of this. I would still think that Explodes! should to D3 HP (in addition to the one HP made by penetrating), so a lucky roll of 6 won't remove a model like a Land Raider immediatly. Also, 8 HP for a Land Raider may be too much - 6 would do.

Rest - Completely agree. The thin Tau suits should be the glass cannons, and the tanks the... Well, tanks.

Tau suits have never been glass cannons in game or in fluff, they've always been the elite heavy infantry of the Tau and should be big tough and scary. I'll say again 3++ is a bit much for a riptide though and I believe if you remove the FNP people would be less keen to use the nova reactor and it wouldn't be too OP.

Well, Space Marines have never been told to die by Lasguns, but in the game they do. That the fluff want to tell a story about thin-limbed suits being more tough than main battle tanks is fine, but sometimes, commom sense gotta go into it.

I remember a story in the 6th Ed codex, where a formation of Riptides are blown apart by a coordinated boombardment by Deathstrike Missiles, only to have a single suit go out of the resulting crater, solely because it used the Nova Reactor and sheltered itself with the Shield. In the game, no Riptide can be destroyed by a Deathstrike Missiles, let alone an entire formation.

In the fluff, the thing is supposed to be an infantry support unit, that goes with the infantry and supports them - It's not said to be explicitly more hard than a Tank, but it ends up tougher than expected, because it can actually go with Infantry in a manner that the tanks rarely can. So, it's not a machine made to take dozens of anti-tank, it's a support vehicle to infantry. It's a tough nut to crack against infantry.

I think that says AV 12 more than anything, don't you?

At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Crisis Teams have always be shock infantry using jetpacks to move heavy firepower into unexpected quarters and take on things like space marines. Broadsides are Heavy Support infantry

You did say a coordinated bombardment as well, 3 riptides in close formation could be killed by 5 of them.

Is the fact its tougher than a tank a problem with the riptide or a problem with vehicles in general? Why do you think the riptide is too tough? Is it FNP? 3++? 5++? 2+? T6? 5W?
Because a T6 5W 2+ MC isn't hard to kill in this age. I've said it multiple times, just scrap the FNP and it'd be fine.

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Crisis Teams have always be shock infantry using jetpacks to move heavy firepower into unexpected quarters and take on things like space marines. Broadsides are Heavy Support infantry

You did say a coordinated bombardment as well, 3 riptides in close formation could be killed by 5 of them.

Is the fact its tougher than a tank a problem with the riptide or a problem with vehicles in general? Why do you think the riptide is too tough? Is it FNP? 3++? 5++? 2+? T6? 5W?
Because a T6 5W 2+ MC isn't hard to kill in this age. I've said it multiple times, just scrap the FNP and it'd be fine.

Sure, it just never takes the wound. The Riptide is effectively immortal for its price. You have to shoot like 8X the point value of units at it to kill it. Immortal.

Martel732 wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Crisis Teams have always be shock infantry using jetpacks to move heavy firepower into unexpected quarters and take on things like space marines. Broadsides are Heavy Support infantry

You did say a coordinated bombardment as well, 3 riptides in close formation could be killed by 5 of them.

Is the fact its tougher than a tank a problem with the riptide or a problem with vehicles in general? Why do you think the riptide is too tough? Is it FNP? 3++? 5++? 2+? T6? 5W?
Because a T6 5W 2+ MC isn't hard to kill in this age. I've said it multiple times, just scrap the FNP and it'd be fine.

Sure, it just never takes the wound. The Riptide is effectively immortal for its price. You have to shoot like 8X the point value of units at it to kill it. Immortal.

Hah! I run my Riptide without FNP and don't often role for the nova reactor and it dies loads! Don't let it take FNP and it's very very mortal.

Very few weapons can even engage it at range and they all are all expensive with a poor rof.

I'll agree with you there, it shouldn't be 72" range, in the fluff its used to jump city walls and crash through the roof of buildings in ambushes. 30" far the IA would be far more appropriate.

MCs and GMCs shouldn't have 2+ armor, either. Ever.

Maybe, does make them easier to wound with grav though.

MCs and GMCs should NOT be immune to krak missiles. Riptides and DKs basically are.

I agree with you there as well maybe 3+ wouldn't be so bad, however I think that's more of a problem with how AP works, why should AP3 krak missile wounds have a 1/6 chance of hurting it while AP2 plasma gun wounds have 2/3 chance of hurting it?

Taffy17 wrote:
I agree with you there as well maybe 3+ wouldn't be so bad, however I think that's more of a problem with how AP works, why should AP3 krak missile wounds have a 1/6 chance of hurting it while AP2 plasma gun wounds have 2/3 chance of hurting it?

The plasma gun should never have been given AP2 and the krak missile should always have been AP 2. But they're not.

There should really be some kind of rule that means it's easier for AP3 to get through 2+ than AP6. That would probably solve all our problems

Taffy17 wrote:
There should really be some kind of rule that means it's easier for AP3 to get through 2+ than AP6. That would probably solve all our problems

Not all of the problems. I think with the current system, it would be easier to reassign the krak missile as AP 2, as it always should have been.

Now that you mention it, it's fun that a suit of armour made specifically to resist the heat of a fusion reactor can't stand up to Plasma weaponry...

I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

Martel732 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

They are terrifying for the load they carry...

Which is kind of the point. Vehicles should be durable as hell, and aside from walkers not many vehicles are more than a single big gun with a couple small arms like heavy bolters on the side anyway. You pay for durability or killy, and currently vehicles dont really get either.
Also i didnt say Explode should do D3 damage as a whole, thats the existing SHV rules. My whole doubling of the HP thing was to prevent glancing to death from being a much, much more viable option than trying to explode it, but still possible. Essentially i want a medium between the old and new vehicle rules, where you CAN glance a vehicle to death but its not suppose to be reliable.

And i still say the Riptide's IA is the problem, not the riptide itself. Make it AP3 since its essentially the same damn gun as the Ionhead's cannon and only goto AP2 when nova charged. Not being required to take that risk like the Bursttides are makes them incredibly resilient because they basically lose 1-2 wounds on average per game if they do it every turn, and if theyre down to 1 they dont even want to risk it. Iontides dont have this problem, as they damn near never need the 3++ or the 4D6 jump.

Talking about why Tanks aren't killy, anyone have any ideas to enchance the strength of Vehicles? I've always kinda wanted some rule that made vehicles with Turrets work differently than they do natively, but haven't got an idea for it.

I have one idea tho, for the Predator variants - Predator Loading Mechanism: A Predator with an Autocannon or Twin-linked Assault Cannon shoots two more shots per shooting phase than what the weapon allows.

Gotta make those guns workable somehow.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

They are terrifying for the load they carry...

Assault units? Hardly terrifying.

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

They are terrifying for the load they carry...

Assault units? Hardly terrifying.

Is that your reaction to Assault Termies? I can assure you that my reaction to that would be "AAAAARGH SHIET"

Assault terminators suck because once you add their cost to the transport's cost, you realize your opponent just flushed 1/3 of their list on that weak sauce.

Remember assault units assault what you choose for them to assault. So after they assault a throw away unit, you shoot them off the table and ignore the LR for the rest of the game.

I dont like terminators as a whole. Assaulty or shooty they still have tremendous stats and rules to back up the role they arent doing so it jacks up their prices. They either deepstrike so they dont consume 1/3 of your list and fall victim to being in the open a turn, or use a landraider which makes them far far too expensive.
I have that problem with marines in general, not just TEQs. I dont enjoy paying for multitasking because either you pay out the ass for it or theyre halfassed at both. I look at any marine dex as an ork/tau player and i only see cheese as a viable option as any normal tactical thoughts are too expensive. They either bring something clearly underpriced and abuse the hell out of it, or pay too much for what they have on the field without it.
I intended to start a vanilla marine last codex drop, so i bought the dex. Spent like 3 months pondering tactics so i didnt have to buy a regiment in order to play them. Couldnt find one that was friendly-game worthy - always either horribly overcosted or utter cheese.
/rant

Yes i use Riptides even though i just said all that. I use them the way they were intended to be used though - theyre a frontline tank not a gunboat. Mine usually sits right behind my Piranha wall drawing fire while my firewarriors rapidfire the gak out of people and my other suits get good shots off.

I shoot all the non-Riptide stuff first. Because shooting Riptides is usually a waste of shots.

Martel732 wrote:
I shoot all the non-Riptide stuff first. Because shooting Riptides is usually a waste of shots.

This

Unless you can reliably kill it in no more than 2 rounds of shooting, ignore it. You will only invest way more points into removing it than its worth to begin with, and once ML are out of the picture it requires some pretty damn good dice luck to hit things due to BS3 and Gets Hot.
Told that to my friends, and the few that adhere to it actually beat me fairly often. Its going to do damage, yes, but thats because if it had say the Cyclic Ion Raker instead of the Ion Accelerator or Heavy Burst Cannon, you wouldnt even consider shooting it even if you could reliably kill it because it wouldnt be that big of a threat. A tank only works when things actually hit it, and if its guns isnt taunting enough it wont ever get hit.
Still say it should be AP3 without nova charge though. An S8 AP3 pi plate is still one hell of a threat if it doesnt Gets Hot or scatter to nothingness. Especially considering the only nonAP4 Ion gun we have is the Ion Cannon...which is an even bigger gun mind you...it shouldnt be AP2 by default.

Still doesn't work for me, because ba.

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

And again. Those classifications are not fluff based. They are not meant to accurately depict what the units are. They are to indicate the type of movement and abilities during gameplay. Riptides and Wraithknights are fast, agile, front line fighters; aka monsters creatures. Walker vehicles are slow, lumbering entities like dreadnoughts, and thus the rules reflect that.

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

Its not as simple as that. People who just say "they should be a walker" dont ever dig into the whats and ifs of that statement.
Its not only incredibly unfluffy to make either a walker, it also completely breaks the unit either in an OP way or useless way. Part of this is piss poor vehicle/walker rules i'll admit, but that doesnt mean anything. Walkers are slow and lumbering machines, while the MC "Walkers" behave just like a normal person in terms of reflexes and speed if not more.
Even if walker rules would benefit the riptde i wouldnt want it to be a walker because it makes no damn sense to be a walker unless ALL of our suits were walkers. Theyre all the exact same thing, just larger versions of each other. Stealth suits are easily Power Armor type gear but our Crisis Suits would be along the lines of a Killa Kan if they were a walker, not power armor. Why would one suit be infantry and another be a vehicle? Makes no sense.
And if you make them all vehicles, again you either render them all totally useless because the AV is too low, or broken because suddenly Tau spam insane amounts of decent to high AV.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

And again. Those classifications are not fluff based. They are not meant to accurately depict what the units are. They are to indicate the type of movement and abilities during gameplay. Riptides and Wraithknights are fast, agile, front line fighters; aka monsters creatures. Walker vehicles are slow, lumbering entities like dreadnoughts, and thus the rules reflect that.

So why are Maulerfiends walkers then? They're fast, agile, front line fighters - not slow or lumbering - yet they are walkers and die in a few hits from some chump with an autocannon while ol' Riptide over here just won't die.

There really is no rhyme or reason to the split other than GW thinks MCs rules are cooler/better and so they give their favourite armies MCs, even when they should be walkers.

Is the thing just one big living creature? (Maulerfiend, Helbrute, Heldrake)
>MC

Is it just a giant suit of armour, gundam-style? (Dreadnoughts, Riptide, WK, IK)
>Walker

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

I can't say that WK or Riptide is a cheese. Both can be killed in just one (maybe two) shooting phases.

If you cannot kill them - just ignore it and score Maelstorm, kill guys you can kill and play tactically.
7E is not about "Kill'em all!".

 OneEyedALice wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

I can't say that WK or Riptide is a cheese. Both can be killed in just one (maybe two) shooting phases.

If you cannot kill them - just ignore it and score Maelstorm, kill guys you can kill and play tactically.
7E is not about "Kill'em all!".

Which is a funnny thing to say, given that almost all of the games I've played have resulted in someone getting tabled before T5. And many games I have witnessed but not played...

This edition is way more about tabling than previous editions.

The point here is that no army should have a unit that is this tough. Every unit has their proper use and employment and weaknesses. Whats the Riptides? Melee? Well it has a jump pack to avoid that, its super tough with a lot of wounds and the best armor and invul save in the game, all for something thats about the cost of a landraider. Now compare those two units in your mind for a second. Landraiders are tough, but they can be killed, easily. Or at least immobilized or stunned. I think the real answer is that games workshop made the Riptide the way it is to boost the sales of the model. So everyone would say, "Oh man I want that model for an ally in my army," well thats bull crap and its effectively destroying the game.

 Crimson Willy wrote:
The point here is that no army should have a unit that is this tough. Every unit has their proper use and employment and weaknesses. Whats the Riptides? Melee? Well it has a jump pack to avoid that, its super tough with a lot of wounds and the best armor and invul save in the game, all for something thats about the cost of a landraider. Now compare those two units in your mind for a second. Landraiders are tough, but they can be killed, easily. Or at least immobilized or stunned. I think the real answer is that games workshop made the Riptide the way it is to boost the sales of the model. So everyone would say, "Oh man I want that model for an ally in my army," well thats bull crap and its effectively destroying the game.

Yeah, Riptide barely can be catched by 6"-moving units.
But you got bikes, you got jetbikes and you even got jumppacks.

And, yeah, it's completely not cool to compare a good unit with a useless kal like Land Raider, huh.

2Selym
I've played unkillable deathstars of SM, which barely can be wounded by the most of the armies, not even saying about save-throws and FnP.
I've played Skitarii and Dark Eldars, which are dying hella easily.

Almost no any 0-20 loses. No one can kill thing that he cannot target.
Hide units behind losblocks. Hide them in reserves. Hide them in close combat.

It's like some people on Dakka think all players are magicians...

Riptides are so tough! My 2 gun drones only held it in close combat for 2 turns! What a waste of units that come for free!!!!

And also, have you guys seen wraithstars? Have you guys seen wolfstars? How can they get 2+/3++ and FnP, and toughness 5 to boot? And they are immune to ALL shooting, beastly in CC, and have the potential to charge turn 1. And these guys eat WK/IK/ritpides way more often in games I've seen.

And another thing, riptides are not fearless, neither are they LD10. Tau have no psychic defence other than the artifact. There are ways to kill it/hold it/ make it ineffective. Nobody asked you to run a squad of barefooted marines to charge against it. There are ways to fight an opponent, and sure, riptides are tough, but they have more weaknesses than many other things out there right now. Trust me, there are things that would make you rather face 3 riptides than them.

bleak wrote:
Riptides are so tough! My 2 gun drones only held it in close combat for 2 turns! What a waste of units that come for free!!!!

And also, have you guys seen wraithstars? Have you guys seen wolfstars? How can they get 2+/3++ and FnP, and toughness 5 to boot? And they are immune to ALL shooting, beastly in CC, and have the potential to charge turn 1. And these guys eat WK/IK/ritpides way more often in games I've seen.

And another thing, riptides are not fearless, neither are they LD10. Tau have no psychic defence other than the artifact. There are ways to kill it/hold it/ make it ineffective. Nobody asked you to run a squad of barefooted marines to charge against it. There are ways to fight an opponent, and sure, riptides are tough, but they have more weaknesses than many other things out there right now. Trust me, there are things that would make you rather face 3 riptides than them.

Again, pointing your finger at other cheese units or combinations still means no argument regarding why a giant mechanical robot with a humanoid pilot is currently a "monstruous creature" ingame. The only thing you're telling me is that you simply do not want to part ways with your cheese unit.

Regarding Mauler/Forgefiends and Heldrakes, I'm fine with them having vehicle rules. They're supposed to be a mix of vehicle and daemon (in the case of the Heldrake, with a mutated marine pilot still inside), but still mostly mechanic, so it's not a problem that they are vehicles with daemon special rules.

Any player that allows his Riptide to be caught in close combat by anything that moves 6" deserves to lose, and then have his army confiscated.

And, as Korinov said, excusing the Riptide by saying that X/Y/Z is also cheesy only shows that you are so dependant on that that you can't bare it being brought in line.

I'm more or less just using the Maulerfiend as an example as to why there isn't a fluff reason for Riptides being MCs compared to others being Walkers. I'm not saying though should be (though it would be nice )

 OneEyedALice wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

I can't say that WK or Riptide is a cheese. Both can be killed in just one (maybe two) shooting phases.

If you cannot kill them - just ignore it and score Maelstorm, kill guys you can kill and play tactically.
7E is not about "Kill'em all!".

7e allows 5 wraithknights in a legal battle forged army sir. Go ahead. Ignore them all. See what happens. :p

Whell you could try to completely ignore them, and their presence on the board and their damage output. The "you can always ignore op unit x" must be one of the weakest arguments out there. Especially if the unit in question is faster then average or has good ranged weapons. Those knights and riptides just happen to have both.

Ok, so you guys think it should be brought in line, so giving it vehicles mechanic. Maybe same points, at 12/12/11. And maybe 5HP. It still gets its nova charge, giving it a 3++. It is a vehicle that can JSJ. And now that nothing but strength 6 can hurt it, do you know how insane that would be?

You guys think its OP because you guys do not play enough variety, don't see enough, don't understand how to play maelstrom, or just play 40k to try to table opponents. Have you guys seen hemlock wraithfighters? Heck, even a random shot from a deathjester can destroy it just by moving it out the board. If its a weak argument "to ignore unit x", then you guys don't know tactics and strategy, which some of us gave already. So you can either cry cheese, or just outplay your opponent, and one of which has a better experience for both players.

bleak wrote:
Ok, so you guys think it should be brought in line, so giving it vehicles mechanic. Maybe same points, at 12/12/11. And maybe 5HP. It still gets its nova charge, giving it a 3++. It is a vehicle that can JSJ. And now that nothing but strength 6 can hurt it, do you know how insane that would be?

You guys think its OP because you guys do not play enough variety, don't see enough, don't understand how to play maelstrom, or just play 40k to try to table opponents. Have you guys seen hemlock wraithfighters? Heck, even a random shot from a deathjester can destroy it just by moving it out the board. If its a weak argument "to ignore unit x", then you guys don't know tactics and strategy, which some of us gave already. So you can either cry cheese, or just outplay your opponent, and one of which has a better experience for both players.

Yes thank you.I find it hilarious that people actually think making it a walker with an armor value would make it easier to kill...

How about this:
225 pts base (no longer has Jet Pack, Deep Strike)
WS1 BS3 S5 AV 11/11/10 HP4 I1 A1, 5++

Nova Reactor: Primary and secondary weapons only. Failure: Take a penetrating hit at AP1 with no saves of any kind allowed.

Ion Accelerator: S7 AP4 Heavy 4, Overcharge S8 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Gets Hot, Nova-Charge S9 AP2 Ordnance 1 Large Blast Gets Hot

Shielded Missile Drones: Remove.

Support System options: Remove.

At the end of any turn in which the Riptide uses its Nova Reactor, it may not charge or strike blows in close combat, and counts as WS0 until the controlling player's next Movement Phase.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
7e allows 5 wraithknights in a legal battle forged army sir. Go ahead. Ignore them all. See what happens. :p

Nothing happens, huh.
Even 5 wraithknigts can barely kill 9 units which can move up to 48" per turn and two Vector Dancer flyers with 2 D-cannons, huh.

Or 12 rhinos with at least one grav-cannon in each of them. And I remind you that Skyhammer Anihilation Force can kill two WK per turn, huh.

jade_angel wrote:
How about this:
225 pts base (no longer has Jet Pack, Deep Strike)
WS1 BS3 S5 AV 11/11/10 HP4 I1 A1, 5++

Nova Reactor: Primary and secondary weapons only. Failure: Take a penetrating hit at AP1 with no saves of any kind allowed.

Ion Accelerator: S7 AP4 Heavy 4, Overcharge S8 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Gets Hot, Nova-Charge S9 AP2 Ordnance 1 Large Blast Gets Hot

Shielded Missile Drones: Remove.

Support System options: Remove.

At the end of any turn in which the Riptide uses its Nova Reactor, it may not charge or strike blows in close combat, and counts as WS0 until the controlling player's next Movement Phase.

might as well just delete the unit entry at this point

Honestly, I was being a little irritably snarky with that one. No suggestion seems to ever be good enough: nerf it as an MC, everyone says it should be a walker. Propose reasonable walker rules, that's insanely strong. So, here's an attempt at both - it's a walker, it moves like a Dreadnought, the nova reactor is very risky to use, the ion accelerator is nerfed, no more Interceptor or Skyfire, and it's a lot less durable (about equal to two Penitent Engines though they're easier to explode and would have 6 HP between them, and they have a 6++ instead of 5++).

But yes, at 225 pts, that would be *FAR* too weak.

Out of curiosity, what do people think of the Ghostkeel? OP? Its cover shenanigans are mad nasty, but if you can get past them, T5 W4 Sv 3+ isn't *that* hard to kill, as Marine players can attest (how fast can you lose four bikes?)

jade_angel wrote:
Honestly, I was being a little irritably snarky with that one. No suggestion seems to ever be good enough: nerf it as an MC, everyone says it should be a walker. Propose reasonable walker rules, that's insanely strong. So, here's an attempt at both - it's a walker, it moves like a Dreadnought, the nova reactor is very risky to use, the ion accelerator is nerfed, no more Interceptor or Skyfire, and it's a lot less durable (about equal to two Penitent Engines though they're easier to explode and would have 6 HP between them, and they have a 6++ instead of 5++).

But yes, at 225 pts, that would be *FAR* too weak.

Out of curiosity, what do people think of the Ghostkeel? OP? Its cover shenanigans are mad nasty, but if you can get past them, T5 W4 Sv 3+ isn't *that* hard to kill, as Marine players can attest (how fast can you lose four bikes?)

Riptide could be 200 base. Like most high toughness/low save MC's, grav weapons are its downfall. Furthermore, charging a riptide with a decent CC unit could kill it, while charging a riptide with a large unit of weaker models could tie it up for a game and make it useless.

 McNinja wrote:

bleak wrote:
Ok, so you guys think it should be brought in line, so giving it vehicles mechanic. Maybe same points, at 12/12/11. And maybe 5HP. It still gets its nova charge, giving it a 3++. It is a vehicle that can JSJ. And now that nothing but strength 6 can hurt it, do you know how insane that would be?

You guys think its OP because you guys do not play enough variety, don't see enough, don't understand how to play maelstrom, or just play 40k to try to table opponents. Have you guys seen hemlock wraithfighters? Heck, even a random shot from a deathjester can destroy it just by moving it out the board. If its a weak argument "to ignore unit x", then you guys don't know tactics and strategy, which some of us gave already. So you can either cry cheese, or just outplay your opponent, and one of which has a better experience for both players.

Yes thank you.I find it hilarious that people actually think making it a walker with an armor value would make it easier to kill...

First, if it were made a vehicle, it would likely have 3HP, perhaps 4HP tops (Land Raider level). That's how vehicles work (which could use some revamping for sure, but it's how they work at the moment).

Second, the 3++ save would probably need a tone down. Personally I would seriously limit invulnerable saves, the game has gone completely nuts in that regard. Only Terminators with Storm Shield and perhaps ultimate daemonic combinations should be able to reach 3++. The Riptide could do perfectly with a 4++.

And yes, it would be easier to kill, because a single Lascannon or Melta shot can make you asplode. Unlike MCs, where you need to drop the wounds one by one. "You can still kill it with Psychic Shriek" is not an argument, because first I need to successfully cast the power, then it may be dispelled, and then the Tau player has to do his/her leadership test. Trust me, in average, from all the times I've tried to roll Psychic Shriek, perhaps one third of the time I've managed to kill something, and you don't usually kill much anyway.

Lastly, I'll just ignore the bolded "L2P noob" part, as from the start I knew fully well we'd reach that point.

I'd actually like to see the defensive nova-charge do something different and interesting. What if instead of upping the Invuln save it made the model's armor save re-rollable?

Instead of just making it tough model against all weapons, you have the choice to make it near-immune to AP3+, but it leaves a chink in the armor to be exploited.

raverrn wrote:
I'd actually like to see the defensive nova-charge do something different and interesting. What if instead of upping the Invuln save it made the model's armor save re-rollable?

Instead of just making it tough model against all weapons, you have the choice to make it near-immune to AP3+, but it leaves a chink in the armor to be exploited.

How about instead of an invul save (if its a walker) it grants it the ability to ignore crew shaken and crew stunned results, just like a daemon possessed vehicle?

raverrn wrote:
I'd actually like to see the defensive nova-charge do something different and interesting. What if instead of upping the Invuln save it made the model's armor save re-rollable?

Instead of just making it tough model against all weapons, you have the choice to make it near-immune to AP3+, but it leaves a chink in the armor to be exploited.

I'd like to see Defensive Nova-Reactor removed entirely.

Offensive options only, and each option has a different chance to fail rather than a flat "It goes off on this roll".