After being away from the hobby for 7 years, I decided to jump back in. I used BA before and started again, as I'd made the mistake of selling everything before. Ouch!

So, to start off, I'm looking at several 1,000/1,500 point lists for dealing with a variety of opponents: Chaos, Nids, Tau, ork, etc... What's the best way to go about this? I want to have several army lists, each one with an opponent in mind. Blood Angels only! No allies.

I'm also in a club, so I get to play every week against experienced players, which is great for self-imposed WH40K education. Steep learning curve.

I've played 3 games at the club so far. First opponent was Grey Knights. At the time I went with an Eldar allied detachment with Blood Angels. He wiped the floor with me. Though my Furioso disemboweled one of his two his DreadKnights. That was fun!

Second game was against Necrons. I'd borrowed some Blood Angels to give me some variety, namely a Devastator Squad and another Furioso. I'd learnt my lack-of-firepower lesson from the Grey Knight game. I inflicted quite a bit of damage, but ultimately his wraiths flanked and took out the Dev squad, a Tac squad and a Furioso. gak, man! Only my Chaplain in Terminator armour survived to the end, locked in combat against his Necron Lord.

My third game was against Dark Eldar. I went with my Chaplain again as HQ, 2x 5-man tac squads, 2x 5-man Assault squads (JP), 2 Furioso's, and 2x 5-man Dev squads. In the end I lost, but only by 2 points. His flyers (venoms, I think) were a pain as they decimated both Dev Squads. Well, in truth 3 of my Dev marines killed themselves firing their plasma cannons.

His better initiative meant one assault squad suffered, but the other mopped up in a follow up assault. I lost pretty much all of my Tactical marines and a Furioso as well. But my remaining Furioso took out both of his Raider transports and then half of his ten man wych squad. I lost that game through the bad decision of opting to let him go first, hoping I could weather the storm in turn 1 and then charge in or flatten him with heavy weapons firepower.

So, advice, folks. Much appreciated.

What works best against different armies? As I'm getting back into the swing of things I want to buy with a purpose and not spam the GW store with my wallet, though I'm sure they'd appreciate my £ spam.

For Necrons and Dark Eldar, I'm looking at a jump pack focused army, with some firepower for back up.
For Tau I'm looking at moving fast and hitting hard, using Deep striking terminators, vindicators, razorbacks and a lascannon equipped devastator squad, and Death company to boot.
Orks will face a fast moving assault army, while Nids will face a standing gun line with some harassing units.
IG will face a similar army to what'll go up against the Tau.

Let's forget about top tier builds, because BA don't have any anyway.

It sounds like you are using a lot of units that are known to struggle in 7th ed.

So rather than starting off negative, let's list the things that are at least mediocre units.

1) Grav bikers
2) Furioso equipped with frag cannon in a drop pod
3) Jump pack Death Company with 1 power fist per 5 dudes
4) Level 2 librarian support
5) Sanguinary priests
6) Fast predators (I guess)
7) Dante (according to some, I don't agree, but he should go on here)

Unfortunately, BA are no longer very good at assault and struggle to compete in the shooting phase as well. First useful tip: always take minimum troops with BA or close to minimum troops if you are going obj sec. BA troops are really bad.

Assault squads and scouts are pretty nice too. Assault marines can get meltas and a pod, land in and do some damage initially and than still remain a threat that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, they'll put a bunch of s5, probably i5 attacks.

Needs threat saturation to work properly.

Some people like Mephiston as a tank and ap3 chopper in a pod. He no longer goes solo dracula.

 koooaei wrote:
Assault squads and scouts are pretty nice too. Assault marines can get meltas and a pod, land in and do some damage initially and than still remain a threat that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, they'll put a bunch of s5, probably i5 attacks.

Needs threat saturation to work properly.

That's pretty hard in a book of non-threats. Assault squads and scouts are not good, imo. The triple melta thing is actually very unreliable.

Better than double melta on tacticals. And those are still used. Fall in, 3 melta, 1 krak, 1 bolt and hope for the best. Pretty likely to bring harm to most vehicles without fancy improved jinks.

It's not a guaranteed kill but it's not bad for the points. Can go with flamers - that could have a place too.

Oh, btw, tacticals have access to heavy flamers. So, you could do a flamer drop. Flamer + combi-flamer + heavy flamer. Some armies will hate you for that. Others won't care. So, up to you to decide.

I have almost always been very disappointed with the triple melta suicide ASM unit. It's super terrible against lists with no mech as well.

Tripple flamer? =)

Have an answer for a Super Heavy/Gargantuan creature. Enough STR 8+ weapons at AP 3 or better are needed. Instant Death weapons help. To compete, you need an answer for these big 'uns. They will show up in your games. No sense fooling yourself about that!

Aside from that, you need mobility. Lots of missions favor it. Faster the better.

Final piece of advice: value Objective Secured units. If you can afford to, I highly recommend having at least four units that have the Objective Secured rule on them. Some of the more powerful builds you might face lack this rule and so just holding some Obsec in reserve and zooming them up later in the game can win it for you by dent of the fact that the enemy might not be able to contest you!

 koooaei wrote:
Tripple flamer? =)

Maybe. But then that's useless against meched up lists. BA are super hard to build with no list tailoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Have an answer for a Super Heavy/Gargantuan creature. Enough STR 8+ weapons at AP 3 or better are needed. Instant Death weapons help. To compete, you need an answer for these big 'uns. They will show up in your games. No sense fooling yourself about that!

Aside from that, you need mobility. Lots of missions favor it. Faster the better.

Final piece of advice: value Objective Secured units. If you can afford to, I highly recommend having at least four units that have the Objective Secured rule on them. Some of the more powerful builds you might face lack this rule and so just holding some Obsec in reserve and zooming them up later in the game can win it for you by dent of the fact that the enemy might not be able to contest you!

This, of course, means giving up init 5 assaults, but I've found obj sec more valuable because there's too many things now that the BA can't punch anyway.

Also, you really want AP 2 for your anti-MC tech, because Riptides and DK are two of the meanest and most prevalent MCs out there. This is why I listed grav bikers first.

One of the best units in the BA book is Death Company. It took me a while to learn of these guy's potential brutality on the field. Have a couple of power fists in a 10 man squad with jump packs and they can be killer. Add a chaplain and they're re rolling all their attacks.
Another good thing BA get is Dante placed in Sanguinary guard with a Sanguinary priest. Kinda expensive, but also pretty devastating.
Another pretty swish thing they get are predators with overcharged engines. Predators with the Fast special rule is pretty neat. Arm them with auto cannons and sponson las cannons and they're a really mobile anti-tank unit.
Furioso with a frag cannon in a drop pod is a really good distraction, and will often chew up entire squads on entry. Don't expect him to last very long though, so make sure it counts where you drop him.
Having +1 initiative on the charge is also very handy. I don't typically use it to assault though. I tend to play BA like other marines, but I instead use it to counter charge close combat armies, to deny them their bonuses and allow me to go either first or simultaneously.

" Add a chaplain and they're re rolling all their attacks. "

DC do NOT need a chaplain. Chaplains are wasted points in 7th ed. You need more bodies, more durability. Not rerolls on 50 attacks.

Chaplains are golden for DA. But DC...allready fearless and have a tonn of attacks. Better have more DC than a Chaplain imo.

I mostly have a chaplain with my DC cos its fluffy, and cos he's my warlord (cos the new jumplain figure is so damn cool)

I'd argue that CSM and BA are two lists than can ill afford to be fluffy.

 koooaei wrote:
Assault squads and scouts are pretty nice too. Assault marines can get meltas and a pod, land in and do some damage initially and than still remain a threat that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, they'll put a bunch of s5, probably i5 attacks.

Needs threat saturation to work properly.

Some people like Mephiston as a tank and ap3 chopper in a pod. He no longer goes solo dracula.

Scouts are terrible. If they had access to the Storm I might say otherwise.

Surprised no one mentioned Sangunary Guard. A friend of mine is very fond of them having 2+, which is surprisingly good. They have decent HtH Loadout aswell - ap3, power fists etc.

They also look hella good!

cabal_therapy wrote:
Surprised no one mentioned Sangunary Guard. A friend of mine is very fond of them having 2+, which is surprisingly good. They have decent HtH Loadout aswell - ap3, power fists etc.

They also look hella good!

Because they are bad in 7th ed. Too much ap2 and they have no backup save. I specfically left them off my list.

Sanguinary guard can be good in certain situations. I have run them with some success. But the problem is that they are so expensive. And to make them worthwhile, you need to take a sanguinary priest. but really any unit with a sanguinary priest does better.

A unit as expensive as SG shouldn't need an HQ babysitter, yet they do.

Honestly, you could get better mileage out of Blood Angels of you were to play using the Raven Guard Tactics from Codex: Space Marines and the Kauyon detachments. Use the Blood Angels models whenever possible, but keep to the RG rules. It will suck not having DC, but when the RG outclass you in every other aspect, there is no reason to use BA. RG have better jump packs, are better at assaulting, and have better units.

The Kauyon Detachment allows for stuff like rolling for reserves on Turn 1. This works especially well with the Shadowstrike Kill Team formation that allows you to automatically succeed with Reserve Rolls on some Vanguard Veterans. Those Vanguard Vets can then assault out of Deep Strike. It is fairly easy to build an effective BA army that is still fairly fluffy.

Edit: really, I wish I could take my own advice, but I have way too many units for my BA army that don't work in the way I described. If I could go back, I probably wouldn't have even started the army in the first place. BA are terrible.

The units martel said plus;

MM Attack Bikes and Melta Rhino Assault Squads are decent. Meph is good, but not for mono BA.

Captain is a decent baby sitter, with bike, 2+3++ Had more success with bike captains then ive had with Dante, but both are not amazing.


You should decide early if your planning on bringing allies to your BA force because that will have a significant impact on what units you want to take.

Some decent allies:

Imperial Guard - Throw Mephiston in a IG blob and run up the board
Libby Conclave - Ravenguard to give 3 units shrouded turn one or white scar for hit and run (shrouded should help DC alot)
The new ravenguard formations with vanguard assaulting from deep strike.
Skyhammer Annihilation Force - for pinning and assault
Grav Centurions - For grav spam
Skitarii - Vanguard with haywire guns in pods > melta squads
Culexus Assassin - Anti psyker

Other books really do most/all things more efficient than BA, but you can build some decent lists with allies.

If your intending to go mono BA, i'd say msu is your best chanse, but many dont enjoy playing those lists. If you don't take something risky can can pull off wins 2-3 ravens loaded with 300-400 points each and an empty pod so you can null deploy. It will make games shorter and most people don't take anti air anymore.

Sorry for the late reply, everyone. And thanks for the advice. I'm not taking allies. I want to use a pure BA army list. I'm fond of Vindicators. What's the general consensus on using them in a BA army? Overcharged Engines FTW.

I'll be using Death Company. I know that. And I'll be kitting them out in power weapons etc. Assault squads are a must as are transports for Tactical marines.

How effective are stormraven gunships? They seem like easy prey for Tau.

Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

Death company are pretty pricey once you equip them with a jump pack. Give them one power fist per five DC and leave the power weapons at home.

Assault squads are bad. Don't use them. I've decided even the melta drop versions are bad. Too many MCs that just don't give a feth.

BA are easy prey for Tau. Don't single out the Stormraven. I used to hate the thing, but I've been using it lately with the mindset of I don't care what happens to it and I find I like it much better. That means hovering it after you come on the board so you can just keep shooting targets.

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

Martel, you can give one Vindicator battle of Keylek which gibes Ignore Cover to blast weapons. 35 points mind, but instant T5 removal is good.

Agree about DC, though I find power weapons are good at high points levels

Assault squads with Plasma in Rhinos work well for me. I use Drop Pods for Dreadnoughts these days. Much prefer mobile Rhinos for infantry.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

That makes them even more of a one shot wonder. I'd rather have shot sooner rather than later. I think the vindicator basically sucks.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

That makes them even more of a one shot wonder. I'd rather have shot sooner rather than later. I think the vindicator basically sucks.

Later on it will get the chance to do itys thing 3 times probably. Early on, perhaps none.

I'm with Martel here - they're just not that good in today's meta. Best case scenario is you get a bunch of castled up Crisis Suits, Marines or mech out of cover.
In reality though most good players aren't going to castle up, especially outside of cover. Vindicators also aren't very good against MC/GMCs

I'd also argue Vindicators are bad in a list where you're running multiple assault units (ie Death Company). You really don't want Vindicator shells scattering back onto your assault units.

Thanks for replying, everyone. I’m overwhelmed by the advice.
My 1,500 BA army list so far is this:

HQ:
X1 Chaplain Terminator (I don’t yet have a Librarian).

ELITES:
X5 Death Company with JP. X1 Powerfist, x1 power sword, x1 Infernus pistol and x1 Plasma pistol.
X5 Tactical Terminators (Deep Striking), x1 Assault Cannon.

TROOPS:
X5 Tactical Marines, x1 Rhino, Plasma gun
X5 Tactical Marines, x1 Razorback (TL HB), x1 Meltagun

FAST ATTACK:
X5 Assault Marines with JP, x1 Meltagun, x1 power weapon.
X5 Assault Marines with JP, x1 Meltagun, x1 power weapon.

HEAVY SUPPORT:
X5 Devastator Marines, x2 Lascannons, x2 Multi-meltas. Sgt with Combi-melta.
X5 Devastator Marines, x2 Heavy Bolters, x2 Missile Launchers. Sgt with Bolter.
X1 Vindicator. Overcharged engines, siege shield. (In my ‘to buy’ list)

1,493 points

Based upon advice and previous games, I’m planning on using this set up for the likes of Tau, Eldar, Orks, IG, and Chaos. It won’t be perfect, but it’s a start. I plan on adding a Stormraven at some point.
I know the Vindicator isn’t recommended here. But as mentioned before, using it later in the game could be really useful.

I’ve discovered the polarized effect of the Death Company. They’re expensive, and draw a lot of attention from the enemy. But I’ve learnt to use that to my advantage. They can soak up more firepower than your typical assault squad and are superb at diverting the attention of your opponent. Or you can keep them out of sight and rush them in when required. Good for mini-counter attacks.

The assault marines can be useful and useless, depending on the army I’m facing. But I like the mobility they add. Against Grey Knights they’re next to useless, but are good for holding actions.
I’ve opted for 2 Devastator squads for increased firepower and flexibility. The lascannons and meltas are great against armour, while the Heavy Bolters are obviously good for massed troops (hordes), and the missile launchers can be used for both hordes and armour.

I obviously need a psyker. I’m thinking of going with the Terminator Librarian or the Furioso Librarian dreadnought. I need this to help nullify the Grey Knight pysker spamming, especially when he drops a protective power on one of his DreadKnights, giving it an invulnerable save of 4+ I think.

In CC his Force Weapons are a pain so I plan on staying mobile, using DC and Assault troops to harass and then close for the kill when sufficiently depleted. The Devastators will remind his Dreadknights that moving in open terrain is a bad idea, and may even draw some attention from them, allowing me to go for objectives.

I’m open to using Mephiston to mess with his psychic gak, or adding Lemartes or Astorath when facing Grey Knights or other similar armies in CC.

The guy at the club who fields Tau tends to spread out his army. I’ve yet to face him, but plan on charging in and hitting him in one area so he has to move in order to engage. Fortunately, he hasn’t opted to camp in a corner, shooting at anything that moves.

I like my Furioso, but he’s just too slow for now, so I’ll opt for drop pods in future wallet-related GW outings.

Obviously, I’m still learning. I’ve yet to use a psyker, so I need some experience with that. And I’ve only used Deep Strike once before and found it to be useful, as long as everything goes according to plan.
I’ve also yet to win a game, but I still really enjoy them, even when my force is decimated. To me, it’s education and fun in one package. And I really enjoy the post-match analysis that ensues after a game.

NOTE: I played the Grey Knight army again, but had to borrow. It was before I came up with this list. I was trying out different things, but completely forgot to field a Devastator squad. Duh!

I had him worried for 3 turns, as my DC and Assault Marines were able to leap around the Battlefield. I rushed a rhino up the field and dropped a squad of terminators via Deep Strike next to his objective marker. In the end, though, I lacked the firepower to sufficiently stop him. His 2 DreadKnights simply leaped around dealing with each threat in turn, though my assault troops did bog them down in an effort to hold them long enough for my 2 Furiosos to arrive in time, which they didn’t. Too slow.

The Death Company drew a lot of attention early on, which diverted the attention away from my vulnerable rhino. I was very mobile, but lacked any real stopping power against him.

He’s a great player, very helpful and is more than happy to exchange ideas and tactics afterwards, which I love (the whole club is, in fact). His force is fairly solid, using 2 DreadKnights, 2 Terminator Grey Knight squads, and an allied IG detachment. I think pretty much everything he uses can deep strike, including the IG.

I suppose my additional questions would be: What works well against MC? And is the Stormraven an easy target when facing Tau?

For what it's worth, my opinion on BA hasn't changed since release. At least for my (Maelstrom) Meta, YMMV.

Baal Strike Force.
Max Elites slots with 5x DC with on Power Fist per squad.
Max Fast slots with Grav Bikes and MM Attack Bikes
HQ - Libby on a bike or jump chaplain if you prefer.
Troops - Min scouts or min Tacticals in Pods/Rhinos

If points left over after that, consider allies. Or if you really want to stay mono BA, consider triple Flamestorm Baals (no sponsons) in the Heavy Slot.

Bartali wrote:
For what it's worth, my opinion on BA hasn't changed since release. At least for my (Maelstrom) Meta, YMMV.

Baal Strike Force.
Max Elites slots with 5x DC with on Power Fist per squad.
Max Fast slots with Grav Bikes and MM Attack Bikes
HQ - Libby on a bike or jump chaplain if you prefer.
Troops - Min scouts or min Tacticals in Pods/Rhinos

If points left over after that, consider allies. Or if you really want to stay mono BA, consider triple Flamestorm Baals (no sponsons) in the Heavy Slot.

Is that DC for each Elite slot?

We don't have 'Grav bikes'. We have bikes. Or is there something about BA that I don't know? Attack Bikes seem like a good route.

I wouldn't touch scouts with a barge pole, unless I could put them in a Land Speeder. For me they seem far too vulnerable and lack any real firepower.

Bikers with grav guns = grav bikes.

Scouts are cheaper than tacs, frequently almost as hard to kill, and don't need Rhino for mobility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Vindicators have to close to 24" to fire (exposing their AV 11 sides), and can't get access to ignore cover. I leave them at home.

More accurately, the enemy neds to cloe in on the Vindicators. One does not deploy Vindicatros to start the game. One deploys them later when the enemy must neds reach objuectives and their anti-armor ability is lessened.

Food for thought. Vidicators are brutally powerful and they are much more effective later in the game...so why not let them come on later in the game?

I'm not advocating that everyone go out and buy one. But reserves is the way to go with a Vindicator.

That makes them even more of a one shot wonder. I'd rather have shot sooner rather than later. I think the vindicator basically sucks.

Later on it will get the chance to do itys thing 3 times probably. Early on, perhaps none.

I've been playing since 1994 and I've never seen a Vindicator fire three times. Vindicators used to be powerful. Now the power units in the game kinda go "meh".

@OP: are you opposed to using Formations?

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
@OP: are you opposed to using Formations?

Not at all. But if possible I'd like to go with something Ad Hoc, not necessarily laid down by GW. That way it would feel more rewarding when I win. I know that probably sounds self indulgent. But I'm certainly not opposed to using a formation.

Obviously I speak of winning here, but I've enjoyed every battle I've played despite losing in each one. I suppose I'd like something competitive, but balanced. It's when the game hangs in the balance and could go either way that provides the most enjoyment.

I suppose the root of my dislike of Scout Marines is more aesthetically orientated than anything else (I like lots of bright, bold armour, not a mix of armour and fatigues). I used them extensively when I played years ago and didn't really like them then. That hasn't really changed.

I'd say it's very difficult to impossible to be "competitive" with BA. It usually takes a lot to go right and very little going wrong to win with them. There's virtually no margin of error at all. It doesn't help that lists like Eldar throw so many dice that they statistically can't get unlucky.

As I said elsewhere, I'm really digging archangels sanguine wing. The 400 pts of free gear is really hard to beat, even though the formation starts in reserves. Vanguards with free power weapons and sanguinary priests, some meltabombs and a couple of stormshields are much better than DC in most cases I'm finding out. They are certainly far, far superior at accepting a charge which does happen quite often. Stormravens are not my preferred way of delivering sternguard, but I'm finding that the turn 2 entry and the turn 3 hover, disembark, shoot combi-meltas and assault is a non-trivial combination. I just hover the raven on turn 3 and it shoots every weapon it can for the rest of the game and I don't care if it lives or dies.

I actually got a Necron player to say that my list was "horrifying". They really can't stop all the power armor, and that many power mauls/axes cuts them to little tiny pieces and the rest break and run and get chased down by angry BA. Tau and Eldar still don't give a feth, because they'll just do what they always do and shoot everything to death trivially.

Ouch!

Is that formation in the codex?

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Bartali wrote:
For what it's worth, my opinion on BA hasn't changed since release. At least for my (Maelstrom) Meta, YMMV.

Baal Strike Force.
Max Elites slots with 5x DC with on Power Fist per squad.
Max Fast slots with Grav Bikes and MM Attack Bikes
HQ - Libby on a bike or jump chaplain if you prefer.
Troops - Min scouts or min Tacticals in Pods/Rhinos

If points left over after that, consider allies. Or if you really want to stay mono BA, consider triple Flamestorm Baals (no sponsons) in the Heavy Slot.

Is that DC for each Elite slot?

We don't have 'Grav bikes'. We have bikes. Or is there something about BA that I don't know? Attack Bikes seem like a good route.

I wouldn't touch scouts with a barge pole, unless I could put them in a Land Speeder. For me they seem far too vulnerable and lack any real firepower.

It is 5 DC in each slot, and as others have said it's Bikes with Grav.
Scouts - BA troop options are rubbish, and a tax to get the better stuff. It's worth keeping the troops slot as cheap as possible.

Again, just to reiterate, for meta and YMMV

Baal Strike Force
Librarian w/ Bike, ML2
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta

Above is 1224. If you're keeping mono-BA you can add in 2x Flamestorm Baals which takes you to 1454 (add in some combi-gravs to take to 1500)
For 1850 I'd probably want a Knight, not least because I'm running out of Force org slots. So at 1850 :-

Baal Strike Force
Librarian w/ Bike, ML2, Veritas Vitae
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x DC w/ Power Fist
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
1x Baal w/ Flamestorm Cannon
1x Baal w/ Flamestorm Cannon

Imperial Knight allied Detachement
1x Knight Warden

 Flugel Meister wrote:
Ouch!

Is that formation in the codex?

It's in Baal: Exterminatus. Or, alternatively, Blood of Kittens website.

I faced the Grey Knight player last night and won. 6-3 VP Yay!!!!

1,000 points

Blood Angels

HQ:
1 Chaplain in Terminator Armour

ELITES:
5 Death Company with JP (1 Power fist, 2 Infernus pistols, 1 plasma pistol, 1 power sword, 3 chainswords).
5 Tactical Terminators (1 power sword, 1 Assault Cannon)
1 Furioso with Blood Talons (1 heavy flamer & 1 Meltagun)

TROOPS:
1 5-man Tactical Squad (1 plasma pistol, 1 plasma gun) in a Rhino.
1 5-man Tactical Squad (1 Plasma Cannon).

HEAVY WEAPONS:
1 5-man Devastator Squad (2 Lascannons & 2 Multi-meltas, Sgt with combi-melta).


Grey Knights

1 Grey Knight Captain
1 DreadKnight
2 Grey Knight Terminator Squads
1 Purifier Squad
1 Stormraven

Yeah vindicators, even fast ones, fall short in this edition. A single str10 ap2 shot with ordinance will penetrate almost any vehicle in the game, but fail to do any real damage even without jink.

Fast tri las preds and baal preds are significantly better fire support units than devastators, as they're highly mobile. It really just depends on what you're facing commonly as to which one is better. If your local meta has a lot of av13+ or GMCs, the tri las pred is better. If it features more bikes, infantry, and av10-11 vehicles, go with the baal.

Other than that, furioso dreads with frag cannons in pods, quad melta assault marine squads, bikes with grav guns, death company, librarians, sanguinary priests and Dante are all solid units. Mephiston is great as well, but only if you find a way to deliver him. I usually play with the Baal or Flesh Tearer strike force (more often the former), so I keep my troops to a minimum. 2x5 scouts with shanks and combi meltas if you want as few points as possible in troops, or a couple small tac squads with melta guns or heavy flamers in fast las/plas razors. We still have the options to compete, but ours are just more limited than most.

To be honest I'm probably going to go down the Predator route.

Now that I know how to use my Death Company properly, I'll keep using them. Power fist FTW.

I augmenting my force with a Razorback to join my Rhino for added momentum and punch. For the main bulk of my firepower I'll be using a combination of Predators and Devastator squads.

Did your devastators not get shot off the table? They have got reasonable firepower output but I question their squishy durability.

 Flugel Meister wrote:
To be honest I'm probably going to go down the Predator route.

Now that I know how to use my Death Company properly, I'll keep using them. Power fist FTW.

I augmenting my force with a Razorback to join my Rhino for added momentum and punch. For the main bulk of my firepower I'll be using a combination of Predators and Devastator squads.

I would also consider archangels sanguine wing.

 Slaphead wrote:
Did your devastators not get shot off the table? They have got reasonable firepower output but I question their squishy durability.

It'll depend on the army I'm facing. They worry Grey Knights, Necrons, and in some ways, Eldar. But grey Knights in particular as they lack any significant long range firepower.

The real problem is that devastators can't take any worthwhile weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
The real problem is that devastators can't take any worthwhile weapons.

Lascannons are not TERRIBLE, but they are not all that good either. Overpriced for what they accomplish. Missile Launchers are okay, but still not great. Both suffer from bad rate of fire.

As far as Devastators go, I prefer high RoF/Template weapons over single shot, though as has been said, the lascannon is always a decent choice at the very least.

My preferred combo on Devastators is a pair of Heavy Bolters, backed up by a pair of Plasma Cannons in the squad. If I opt to run them as a full 10 man squad, then I can combat squad them, but if I don't, their profiles match up well in that they have the same range (36") and both weapons are designed to hurt infantry while doing a pretty good job of threatening most anything I might be shooting them at.

That's my preference anyway.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

They waste red thirst/furious charge, and don't have grav cannons. If they could take heavy flamers I would run them in pods, basically in every list I put down.

I was talking to the main tournament organizer at my FLGS the other day, and he commented that a lot of the players on the competitive scene are talking about a resurgence of Sanguinary Guard. A lot of metas are moving away from massed ap2 and towards torrenting firepower, which our highly mobile and artificer armored golden boys happen to be great against, particularly when backed up by a priest. Combined with the fact that they also shoot rather well and one can easily see how they could come back into favor.

I love Sanguinary Guard, their Aestetic is second to none in my opinion, but much like Terminators, they're too expensive for a 1 wound model. I think they need to cost about 4 to 5 points less (personally I say 5 points) So that a unit of 5 costs 140 points instead of 165. It still makes them 6 points more expensive than Sternguard Veterans per model, and are a viable alternative being faster than Terminators at the cost of not having an innate invulnerable save.

I also agree that attaching a priest and/or a Librarian to a squad of Sanguinary Guard would be a boon, especially if the Librarian has the Shield of Sanguinius and/or Unleashed Rage power to aid in number of attacks and giving them at least a little bit of an invulnerable save against low AP weapons. Honestly the Sanguinary Guard are my favorite unit in the Blood Angels codex, with Death Company taking a very close second place.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Scorpius Whirlwind with ignore cover legacy and a Sicaran is a good boost to BA mono builds, the Fire Raptor as well, but make sure you bring Dante then for the reserve re-roll.

Martel732 wrote:
As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

I Have to disagree. I've discovered that Blood Angels are much better than most people say at being 'shooty', mainly because everyone runs the BA army they have as an all attacking force, which simply isn't necessary all of the time. It's okay to hang squads back, use Predators or Devastators as a firebase for other advancing units.

My recent game against the Grey Knight army is a shining example of this, mainly because his units lack any long range firepower, though he was fairly mobile.

My Devastator squad (2 Las, 2 MM), caused him all kinds of problems. I used his strengths against him i.e his advantage in CC. He had to come to me. I sat my Death Company back behind my Devastator squad and as soon as his grey Knight Terminators were close enough they pounced, slaughtering the squad. I had two separate elements in my force: one for attacking and taking his objective, and one for defending my own objective and countering his attempts to take it.

Obviously this wont work every time. More shooty opponents such as Tau, Eldar, and the massed guns of Orks or IG will require a different approach. But I think charging towards the enemy without any type of supporting fire is simply reckless. If anything, the Devastator squad might take out some of his/her more dangerous units, or simply attract fire, allowing your advancing troops a bit of a reprieve.

I've even used a downgraded Death Company squad as a diversion, simply because of their reputation. Most opponents will fixate on them, taking the pressure off your other squads that are advancing.

Even if I was against a Tau (a typically shooty) army I'd still have fire support. otherwise, all he/she has to do is wait for me to get close instead of having to contend with incoming fire. Lascannons and missile launchers are superb for this simply due to their impressive range. But I know some BA players are reluctant to try and out shoot a Tau army. That's practically classed as heresy. But you don't have to try and match their firepower, simply cause concern. Force them to prioritise targets that go beyond the troops advancing towards them.

I've lost previous games simply because I re-prioritized, whereas my opponents have stuck to their original plan. Get them to have to adapt and you're immediately messing with their overarching battle plan. You're also diluting their massed firepower.

That being said, I've yet to face Tau, IG, Eldar (although I have played as them), Orks or Nids. So I'll understand if people here think I sound like a noob with grandiose plans of conquest. I'm hoping to face the Tau player tonight, so I can get a feel for Tau and the units that are used.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on your victory vs GK - he had a terrible list that couldn't play to the strengths of GK.

I'm sure Devs and Preds work well enough in a relaxed meta where a 5th ed TAC approach to list building works well enough. Outside of that vs hyper competitive 7th ed lists, you're going to struggle.

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

I Have to disagree. I've discovered that Blood Angels are much better than most people say at being 'shooty', mainly because everyone runs the BA army they have as an all attacking force, which simply isn't necessary all of the time. It's okay to hang squads back, use Predators or Devastators as a firebase for other advancing units.

My recent game against the Grey Knight army is a shining example of this, mainly because his units lack any long range firepower, though he was fairly mobile.

My Devastator squad (2 Las, 2 MM), caused him all kinds of problems. I used his strengths against him i.e his advantage in CC. He had to come to me. I sat my Death Company back behind my Devastator squad and as soon as his grey Knight Terminators were close enough they pounced, slaughtering the squad. I had two separate elements in my force: one for attacking and taking his objective, and one for defending my own objective and countering his attempts to take it.

Obviously this wont work every time. More shooty opponents such as Tau, Eldar, and the massed guns of Orks or IG will require a different approach. But I think charging towards the enemy without any type of supporting fire is simply reckless. If anything, the Devastator squad might take out some of his/her more dangerous units, or simply attract fire, allowing your advancing troops a bit of a reprieve.

I've even used a downgraded Death Company squad as a diversion, simply because of their reputation. Most opponents will fixate on them, taking the pressure off your other squads that are advancing.

Even if I was against a Tau (a typically shooty) army I'd still have fire support. otherwise, all he/she has to do is wait for me to get close instead of having to contend with incoming fire. Lascannons and missile launchers are superb for this simply due to their impressive range. But I know some BA players are reluctant to try and out shoot a Tau army. That's practically classed as heresy. But you don't have to try and match their firepower, simply cause concern. Force them to prioritise targets that go beyond the troops advancing towards them.

I've lost previous games simply because I re-prioritized, whereas my opponents have stuck to their original plan. Get them to have to adapt and you're immediately messing with their overarching battle plan. You're also diluting their massed firepower.

That being said, I've yet to face Tau, IG, Eldar (although I have played as them), Orks or Nids. So I'll understand if people here think I sound like a noob with grandiose plans of conquest. I'm hoping to face the Tau player tonight, so I can get a feel for Tau and the units that are used.

The weapons available to BA devastators don't count as supporting fire. Imperial heavy weapons are stuck in the 90s and simply don't cause enough damage anymore.

Armies that can table you in 3-4 turns, like Tau, don't have too hard of a time prioritizing targets. Plus, Riptides and Stormsurges are basically immune to Imperial heavy weapons anyway.

I ignore devastators. I ignore predators. And that's with BA. Why? Because they can't do enough damage to matter. I'm used to dealing with 20 scatterbikes and 80 S6 shots. Your devastators mean nothing in the face of that. You'll never stop me before I'm punching your face in.

I've pretty much sidelined my BA in the past few months, but a game yesterday sparked my curiosity towards Devs. I was facing DA with my AM and my opponent had a Devastator squad all with missile launchers. Although it's by no means overly powerful, four small blasts played hell with my infantry and four krak missiles hitting on 3s went through transports and LRBTs with ease which I'd overlooked.

There's not much of a point difference between Devs with missile launchers compared to an overcharged Predator, so might give them a try in place.

Fl,
Each meta is different. It sounds like yours is really casual.

BA devs having the few bonuses to assault isn't completely wasted in your meta. If things get close to assault them, you can threaten to assault first. There are a lot of skirmisher units that have more to fear from being charged by BA devs than UM devs, that would otherwise love to assault the devs. Besides, only UM and IH devs, I think, have any CT bonuses. Devs aren't all that great, sure, but BA devs aren't any worse than most chaptsrs' devs.

If your meta is more casual, you may not need to streamline your list. My Marines are UM decendents, but most of the core stuff is the same. For a good game, I usually go for 2x10man Tacs + at least 1 Dev and at least 1 ASM squad. It allows you to play all the phases of the game. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty.

If you use ASM, just remember that they aren't DC. They aren't Orks. They are bullies. There are a lot of units in the game an ASM squad can tear up. But CC threats will typically chew them up and spit them out. So I use mine as skirmishers. Going after the light units or backfield units that aren't sufficiently protected. Or supporting my Tacs either to support an assault or as a counter assault. Useful, but not your front line fighters.

I had some success with a double CAD Flesh Tearers Strike Force list with 4x10 assault marines each led by a priest. With ws5 and fnp they actually do a pretty good job of cutting down most targets in the game. A power weapon or fist on both the sgt and the priest also adds some much needed punch.

Martel732 wrote:

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I've stated, I would never use BA devs at this point. Which sucks, because I have like 20 of them.

I Have to disagree. I've discovered that Blood Angels are much better than most people say at being 'shooty', mainly because everyone runs the BA army they have as an all attacking force, which simply isn't necessary all of the time. It's okay to hang squads back, use Predators or Devastators as a firebase for other advancing units.

My recent game against the Grey Knight army is a shining example of this, mainly because his units lack any long range firepower, though he was fairly mobile.

My Devastator squad (2 Las, 2 MM), caused him all kinds of problems. I used his strengths against him i.e his advantage in CC. He had to come to me. I sat my Death Company back behind my Devastator squad and as soon as his grey Knight Terminators were close enough they pounced, slaughtering the squad. I had two separate elements in my force: one for attacking and taking his objective, and one for defending my own objective and countering his attempts to take it.

Obviously this wont work every time. More shooty opponents such as Tau, Eldar, and the massed guns of Orks or IG will require a different approach. But I think charging towards the enemy without any type of supporting fire is simply reckless. If anything, the Devastator squad might take out some of his/her more dangerous units, or simply attract fire, allowing your advancing troops a bit of a reprieve.

I've even used a downgraded Death Company squad as a diversion, simply because of their reputation. Most opponents will fixate on them, taking the pressure off your other squads that are advancing.

Even if I was against a Tau (a typically shooty) army I'd still have fire support. otherwise, all he/she has to do is wait for me to get close instead of having to contend with incoming fire. Lascannons and missile launchers are superb for this simply due to their impressive range. But I know some BA players are reluctant to try and out shoot a Tau army. That's practically classed as heresy. But you don't have to try and match their firepower, simply cause concern. Force them to prioritise targets that go beyond the troops advancing towards them.

I've lost previous games simply because I re-prioritized, whereas my opponents have stuck to their original plan. Get them to have to adapt and you're immediately messing with their overarching battle plan. You're also diluting their massed firepower.

That being said, I've yet to face Tau, IG, Eldar (although I have played as them), Orks or Nids. So I'll understand if people here think I sound like a noob with grandiose plans of conquest. I'm hoping to face the Tau player tonight, so I can get a feel for Tau and the units that are used.

The weapons available to BA devastators don't count as supporting fire. Imperial heavy weapons are stuck in the 90s and simply don't cause enough damage anymore.

Armies that can table you in 3-4 turns, like Tau, don't have too hard of a time prioritizing targets. Plus, Riptides and Stormsurges are basically immune to Imperial heavy weapons anyway.

I ignore devastators. I ignore predators. And that's with BA. Why? Because they can't do enough damage to matter. I'm used to dealing with 20 scatterbikes and 80 S6 shots. Your devastators mean nothing in the face of that. You'll never stop me before I'm punching your face in.

Fair enough. Can't argue with that. I take it you were playing against Eldar?

I didn't get to play against the Tau player. Instead I got to play against one of the more experienced players, who fielded a Dark Angels army.

Surprisingly, it was a fairly close game. I discovered, much to my annoyance, the skills of his Ravenwing. Damn those jinks. But my devastators caused him problems. I wiped out his only Devastator squad in turn 1. And then used them to take out other squads, though his ravening were more difficult to kill.

Death Company did well, taking out 2 squads of marines. But I discovered how weak the regular Assault squad can be. I assaulted his scouts with them and it took almost 3 turns to kill his scouts in CC. He brought a Vindicator, so I got to see, first hand, how good/bad they are. As he doesn't have the benefit of Overcharged engines, it took another turn to get any real use out of it. My Predtor took it on and lost in the end. But his most effective troops were his bikes and his funky ravening land speeder. Damn those jinks and his twin linked plasma snap shots. They ended up wiping out my terminator squad.

In the end I lost 7-9 VP.

I'll probably still opt for devastators or a predator. The dilemma is in which to choose sometimes.

So, with Tau and, I suppose, Eldar, what's best?

Against Tau and Eldar; I simply choose models based on how easy they are to put back in the case.

Terminators are a true losing cause against DA. I'm glad you had a close game, but I'm still of the position that preds and devastators really aren't worth it anymore.

Preds are useful insofar as they are cheap, have long range and are durable. Those three qualities make them decent backfield objective babysitters. DECENT, mind you - not GREAT.

I think people give Vindies way too hard a time. I was able to make good use of regular SM Vindies in the past (before they got the squadron bonus in the current SM book), and those are way harder to make work properly than BA Vindies. Much like Preds, they aren't great, but they're decent enough.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preds are useful insofar as they are cheap, have long range and are durable. Those three qualities make them decent backfield objective babysitters. DECENT, mind you - not GREAT.

I think people give Vindies way too hard a time. I was able to make good use of regular SM Vindies in the past (before they got the squadron bonus in the current SM book), and those are way harder to make work properly than BA Vindies. Much like Preds, they aren't great, but they're decent enough.

AV 11 sides when the vehicle facing table has a HUGE angle for sides is such a critical flaw.

Predators aren't that cheap, imo. And when they fire, nothing happens. Very disappointing.

AV 11 sides isn't really that bad on the Pred. It's more of an issue for the Vindi, but outside of fighting Eldar, you should be able to manage to mitigate some or all of the problem by working with your speed and cover to limit what can shoot at your sides.

As for cost, well its true that they aren't exactly super-competitively priced, but again, I said they were decent, not great.

6 of us are playing this Wednesday at the club in a single, large battle.

One side will field 2 Chaos armies and a single Dark Angels army (the bad guys).

I'm using my Blood Angels, of course, along with another, more experienced BA player, and finally a player using Orks.

Each player is taking 1,000 points each, so that's 3,000 point per side.

My force will consist of:

HQ
1 Chaplain with JP, Crozius & Inferno pistol

ELITES
5 Death Company (JP, 1 powerfist, 1 power sword, 2 inferno pistols, 1 plasma pistol)
1 Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons (Meltagun & Heavy flamer).

TROOPS
5 Tactical Marines (Sgt with Storm bolter, Marine with Heavy Flamer) Rhino
5 Tactical Marines (Sgt with Storm bolter, Marine with Heavy Flamer) Rhino

FAST ATTACK
5 Assault Marines with JP (1 power Axe, 1 Hand flamer, 1 Meltagun)

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 Devastators (2 Missile Launchers, 2 Plasma Cannons).

The plan is to use the tactical marines to rush forward, get out and hose the enemy with fire just before both the Death Company and Assault Squad go in. The Furioso will harass and deal with any threats that break through the line, while the Devastators will provide fire support and thin the herd.

I did previously plan to use my tactical troops more offensively (CC) and equip both Sergeants with power weapons and inferno pistols, or similar. But that would mean I can't shoot with any of the bolters before charging, which seems a waste. So I've opted to use them as a rapidly-moving firebase (Overcharged rhinos), with the bolters hopefully close enough to fire twice and both Heavy Flamers close enough to engulf the enemy in fire. Both Sergeants now have storm bolters to make them slightly more effective at range.

Death Company and Assault Squad will be my dedicated assaulting troops.

Devastators can deal with both troops and armour.

The Furioso will be my roaming asset and will deal with threats accordingly, as long as they're close enough. At worst it'll act as a bullet magnet, taking the strain off both the DC and Assault squad.

Don't mix devastator weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't mix devastator weapons.

I mostly agree with this. In the case of the devastators, missile launcher and plasma cannons don't really work together. They both serve two different roles and also have different ranges so you are only going to be able to fire half of those weapons when outside of 36" range.

If you do mix them, then they should share a common task, i.e. anti infantry or anti tank. For example, on the rare occasion that I have used devastators (in my Dark Angels force, not Blood Angels) I have had good success when using 2 heavy bolters with 2 plasma cannons. Both are of the same range and are anti infantry - the heavy bolters mop up what the plasma cannons leave, i.e. one or two models that survived the plasma blasts then have to make all those saves from heavy bolter shots.

Actually, I wouldn't use devastators at all. But it sounds like the OP is doing it anyway.

ha ha, that is true. They just don't really fit in with Blood Angels (or any marine army some would argue). They are too static and die too easily.

I personally would drop the devastators and bring a couple of landspeeders. I'm a huge fan of the typhoon. It has good movement, decent range on the missile launcher and can generally cause a nuisance if used correctly. I take them every time and have them right at the back out of harms way picking things off and zooming about. If my opponent goes for them then at least they aren't shooting at my more expensive stuff. If they get ignored then they can pick stuff off. Even if the really cheap speeders with a single multi melta or stock heavy bolter are taken, they will probably do more damage than those devastators, you could have a load of them for the price of four dudes with heavy guns.

A typhoon speeder can move 12" and still fire its heavy bolter and typhoon launcher. The typhoon launcher allows it to stay out of the range of many Xeno weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
A typhoon speeder can move 12" and still fire its heavy bolter and typhoon launcher. The typhoon launcher allows it to stay out of the range of many Xeno weapons.

Definitely. In an army that is below par compared to the others out there, it is one of the few/only units that are worth their points.

 Slaphead wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A typhoon speeder can move 12" and still fire its heavy bolter and typhoon launcher. The typhoon launcher allows it to stay out of the range of many Xeno weapons.

Definitely. In an army that is below par compared to the others out there, it is one of the few/only units that are worth their points.

Vanilla marines have them, too, of course. And their effectiveness is really an artifact of lascannons and melta being junked for anti-tank work. Six krak missiles a turn is pretty good for hping stuff out, which is what the game is about now.

OP - swap that devastator squad for two landspeeders with typhoon missile launchers. Keep them sat back and shooting things at a distance. You should find them a lot more effective than those devastators. Plus with their movement, if either of them are alive still on turn 5 then you can zoom them across the table for a cheeky last minute objective grab

 Slaphead wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't mix devastator weapons.

I mostly agree with this. In the case of the devastators, missile launcher and plasma cannons don't really work together. They both serve two different roles and also have different ranges so you are only going to be able to fire half of those weapons when outside of 36" range.

If you do mix them, then they should share a common task, i.e. anti infantry or anti tank. For example, on the rare occasion that I have used devastators (in my Dark Angels force, not Blood Angels) I have had good success when using 2 heavy bolters with 2 plasma cannons. Both are of the same range and are anti infantry - the heavy bolters mop up what the plasma cannons leave, i.e. one or two models that survived the plasma blasts then have to make all those saves from heavy bolter shots.

Yep, I'm sticking with Devastators until I have something more useful. Currently, my wallet screams out in pain every time I browse the Forge world site, so I won't be buying from there anytime soon.

I know I'm not supposed to mix Devastators. Much like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters, things can go horribly wrong. But I'm never going to field 4 Plasma Cannons. That's just asking for trouble. I did it once before and lost 3 of them when they decided to end it all amid a cloud of superheated plasma.

For me I have three reasons for mixing my Devastators:

1. I don't have 16 Devastator models that would allow me to field a complete squad of each of the Devastator weapons accordingly
2. points cost. Sometimes I need both long range armour penetration and short range horde dispersal but lack the points to do so with two separate squads.
3. Some weapons, depending on the ranges involved, work well together.

Land speeders aren't forge world. You can buy 3rd party missile pods for conversion bits.

You are better off taking no heavy support at all than mixed devastators, imo. I have several BA lists with no heavy support slots used at all.

Seconded. Landspeeder kits are not Forgeworld. They are in fact one of the cheaper kits that GW sell and come with all the bits you need. They can be bought for £11 something off darksphere and other online retailers. You can even get them cheap off eBay or as Martel says, get 3rd party missile pods if your second hand one doesn't come with them.

If you're adamant on fielding devastators then you might be ok if you can get them hidden behind some decent ruins/terrain before getting shot at.


Anyhow, best of luck and post how you get on

 Slaphead wrote:
Seconded. Landspeeder kits are not Forgeworld. They are in fact one of the cheaper kits that GW sell and come with all the bits you need. They can be bought for £11 something off darksphere and other online retailers. You can even get them cheap off eBay or as Martel says, get 3rd party missile pods if your second hand one doesn't come with them.

If you're adamant on fielding devastators then you might be ok if you can get them hidden behind some decent ruins/terrain before getting shot at.


Anyhow, best of luck and post how you get on

Thanks!

I know land Speeders aren't FW only models. I was referring to other, more effective means of delivering firepower that FW offer. I currently don't have any Land Speeders. I'm still building up my Battle Company. I will be adding Land Raiders and Predators at some point. I'm planning on fielding a LR Crusader with 15 Death Company inside it, led by a Chaplain. Whoot! But that's later on this year.

Predators, then Land Raiders, and then eventually two or three Land Speeders.

Actually, I have a question regarding Land Speeders. Can Blood Angels field 3 LS in a Squadron? If they can this would my life a lot easier, instead of taking up multiple FA slots.

With Devastators, I always stick them in cover. Luckily, my opponent usually has other concerns instead of firing at my Devastators, such as a squad of Death Company or a bright red dreadnought, lumbering around the battlefield. They both make for tempting targets, and both are speeding towards them as fast as they can. But in every game I've used them, I've always been able to stick them in a building and utilize the cover save.

I do appreciate the feedback and the advice, and I know some of you may be wondering why doesn't he just field this or that unit, as suggested. But I'm keen to experiment with units that might seem unconventional and counterintuitive.

The cover save doesn't usually matter. The ba don't really have anything that distracts or scares a good player. That's kind of their problem. Even if people ignore your devs, devs don't have good firepower anyway and suffer los issues.

Don't get a land raider. They are severely overcosted. And a squad of 15 dc is overkill. Get the speeders first. They are more useful.

I run a ten man squad of DC. 1 with bolter and PF, 4 with PW, and 5 that are standard. It does really well and the standard guys are usually pulled off the table first as they are my front line.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I run a ten man squad of DC. 1 with bolter and PF, 4 with PW, and 5 that are standard. It does really well and the standard guys are usually pulled off the table first as they are my front line.

I find that 2X PF 8X normal guys is more cost effective.

Martel732 wrote:
The cover save doesn't usually matter. The ba don't really have anything that distracts or scares a good player. That's kind of their problem. Even if people ignore your devs, devs don't have good firepower anyway and suffer los issues.

Don't get a land raider. They are severely overcosted. And a squad of 15 dc is overkill. Get the speeders first. They are more useful.

Thinking of using Land Speeders for a forthcoming campaign.

The land raider would be for 3,000 + point battles.

I'll be expanding my DC as well in the near future.

The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

Martel732 wrote:
The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

It'll be used as a glorified Rhino, in urban terrain. I'm considering two more, but those will contain assault terminators and a Libby Termy and Priest/captain termy respectively.

 Flugel Meister wrote:


Actually, I have a question regarding Land Speeders. Can Blood Angels field 3 LS in a Squadron? If they can this would my life a lot easier, instead of taking up multiple FA slots.

Yes, they can be fielded in a squadron. That is what I do whenever I field my Blood Angels. They are usually one of the first things I put down on my list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

It'll be used as a glorified Rhino, in urban terrain. I'm considering two more, but those will contain assault terminators and a Libby Termy and Priest/captain termy respectively.

An alternative could be to have those terminators assaulting out of a Stormraven. I've had mixed experiences with land raiders, but the Stormraven delivery seems to yield the better results for me in comparison. One issue I have come across in the times I fielded a landraider was its speed, it just felt like I was constantly trying to play catch up with it across the table. Whereas the Stormraven gives you much more maneuverability and speed - plus you can have a furioso or DC dread hanging off the back of it which I have found to be a decent enough delivery method for them. A lot of people don't like them, but I do. With the right opponent, having two of them with an assault unit (DC, termies, assault marines) in and dreads hanging off the back can be quite effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flugel Meister wrote:


I do appreciate the feedback and the advice, and I know some of you may be wondering why doesn't he just field this or that unit, as suggested. But I'm keen to experiment with units that might seem unconventional and counterintuitive.

Well said Sir. Completely agree. We play Blood Angels because we like the army. If we wanted to be competitive we would play Eldar, Tau or Necrons

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The raider is even worse at high points, since it will last less time on the field.

It'll be used as a glorified Rhino, in urban terrain. I'm considering two more, but those will contain assault terminators and a Libby Termy and Priest/captain termy respectively.

You should go ahead and buy a land raider. Just do it...it's cool and we all pretty much have one. Just know that at some point you'll stop using it in many of your lists. It's big and cool, but one can only stomach watching 250pts go up in smoke from one melta shot (not to mention the hammer unit inside being stranded in his deployment zone) so many times before finding other ways to spend those points.

Forget melta. Try haywire or D weapons. Melta has to roll a 5+ now, so it's about as likely to hp it out first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Well said Sir. Completely agree. We play Blood Angels because we like the army. If we wanted to be competitive we would play Eldar, Tau or Necrons"

Then what's the point of asking advice? Just field the coolest looking thing.

I do like the idea of using Stormravens, each carrying a supporting Furioso to provide added punch to the Terminators, or using Death Company instead with a pair of Furioso's.

How many Terminators can a Stormraven carry? And I presume they can assault in the same turn they jump out of the SR.

The club organizes large scale battles every now and then. 3,500 points per player, on a twenty foot table. The terrain is usually urban, so a trio of Land Raiders might even make it across the battlefield. However, as they don't benefit from Overcharged Engines (pity) it would take a while.

So Stormravens would definitely be a better choice in that case. I could be adventurous and see if I can field 3 of them, 2 with assault terminators and the remaining one with Death Company. All 3 would carry Furioso's. I could even use land Speeders to support the attack.

I'm still determined to utilize Devastators. Unlike a Predator or Vindicator they can be deployed in an elevated position (in a building). But obviously it'll come don to the layout of the terrain, what the enemy has, and what weapons I choose.

A storm Raven can carry 12 models, or 6 bulky models (such as Terminators), including specifically denoting it can carry models wearing jump packs, which are also bulky.

You can assault out of a storm raven, but in order to do so, the storm raven must only move 6" (no further) in the movement phase while in Hover mode, meaning you'll have to come in out of reserve on turn 2 (at the earliest) in either Zooming or Hover mode, (zooming being the obvious choice as it makes the Storm Raven harder to hit) and then on turn three, transition to hover mode, move up to 6" and then let the models inside deploy out (another 6" of deployment movement in this instance) and then assault 2D6".

If you move over 6" in hover mode or in zooming mode (which you have to, as minimum distance for a zooming flyer is 18") you can still deploy using the Skies of Fury rule inherent with the Storm Raven, but you cannot assault despite the fact that it is an assault vehicle per the Skies of Fury rule.

The only way I can think of to get the Storm Raven on the board faster is to spend 80 points on a Sky Shield Landing Pad (which is not an inexpensive kit $$ wise either) with the Ready For Take Off upgrade, which will allow you to start one flyer on the Skyshield on turn 1. It does also give you a place to deploy your Devastators that gives them a 4+ invulnerable save too, which is nice.

Storm Ravens are fun vehicles, I'm looking forward to picking one up in the future.

Just offering my thoughts on that. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

What is viable is very meta dependant. In my meta, a random BA list has a good chance against a random Eldar list. But in other metas, even the best BA list will struggle against the lower end lists.

If you've had some success, with what you've been using, then its probably a fairly casual meta. Aim to improve your list incrementally instead of flat out replacing it with a netlist.

In a very competitive/cheesy meta, you might have trouble getting devs to do work, but in anything less, they can be quite effective. A dev squad (or two) make a reasonable firebase that the opponent should need to concern himself with in your mid/backfield. Working in concert with your Tacs, it can do good work against a lot of "reasonable" lists.

I often Combat Squad mine (I like sqads of 10 and ablative wounds, but 5-mans can be more competitive) and have them hold a pair of points in the backfield. They won't stop a dedicated force (such as a WK or podded full Tac squad), but will stop/hold most skirmishers (Hawks, 5-man ASMs, etc), while throwing shots downfield.

A pair (or 4) Lascannon shots may not end the average Land Raider, but you should get a pen or two on heavy armor from good range. And often, in less competitive metas, a pen is enough to allow you to focus on something else.

A lascannon pen can also immobilize the LR, which is as good as killing it. MCs, however, will laugh at your lascannons as it will take you all game to kill one with your devs.

(2/3)hit * (5/6) wound * (2/3) failed invuln, typically.

That's (20/56) wounds/shot/round. So with 4, that's 80/56 wounds/round (plus some from boltguns/kraks if close). Not great vs MC spam, but some assistance.

So MCs aren't your optimal target, but they do help. If your opponent has 1 or 2 big MCs amongst infantry, with no vehicles, it can certainly help (what, 2-4 rounds of shooting vs average MCs before they punch you in the face?). But not the right tool vs MC spam.

ASM/Tac/Dev -heavy lists I've always felt struggled with MC spam.

Bharring wrote:
(2/3)hit * (5/6) wound * (2/3) failed invuln, typically.

That's (20/56) wounds/shot/round. So with 4, that's 80/56 wounds/round (plus some from boltguns/kraks if close). Not great vs MC spam, but some assistance.

So MCs aren't your optimal target, but they do help. If your opponent has 1 or 2 big MCs amongst infantry, with no vehicles, it can certainly help (what, 2-4 rounds of shooting vs average MCs before they punch you in the face?). But not the right tool vs MC spam.

ASM/Tac/Dev -heavy lists I've always felt struggled with MC spam.

Marines without grav cannons struggle against MCs. Fixed that for you. Hey, that's all BA lists! What a coincidence!

They'll struggle against Riptides, but a Lascannon (or any Heavy except Heavy Bolter) Dev squad is still a scary answer for a Wraithlord.

It really depends on what you're up against.

Bharring wrote:
They'll struggle against Riptides, but a Lascannon (or any Heavy except Heavy Bolter) Dev squad is still a scary answer for a Wraithlord.

It really depends on what you're up against.

Lascannon and scary doesn't go in the same sentence in 7th. That's because a real list could have had a grav cannon instead, which IS scary. ROF 1 basically junks the weapon in 7th ed.

Sure. If you want to pay a bit more, be a crapton closer, and not have individual supersoldiers carrying a freaking GIANT LASER as if it were a rifle. And if you're not a BA.

I certainly won't be replacing my devs with Grav Cannons in the near future. And its in my codex.

Just because your meta is super competitive doesn't mean everyone's is. There are still better and worse ways to run Devs without Grav Cannons.

And there are still options that should be scared by Lascannons. Rhinos and Wraithlords, for example.

If he's BA and he wants to run Devs, telling him his Devs should take Grav really doesn't help.

No, I'm saying that BA shouldn't be using devs at all. In fact, the whole heavy support section for BA is basically crap. I've lost less badly just avoiding BA heavy support altogether.

My Rhinos aren't scared by lascannons, because I know my opponent overpaid to hp out a Rhino.

So, we played last night.

Instead of 3v3 it was a 2v2 game. Orks and Blood Angels vs 2 Dark Angels armies.

I went with the list on the previous page. It was a fairly friendly game, so no cheese.

The Orks, fielded by the more experienced of us, did really well, and I followed up by dealing with several other threats. The Dark Angels didn't do so well.

We won.

In the end we held all 5 objectives, had Line Breaker and Slay the Warlord. I lost 5 models. My Devastators worked a treat, removing several opposing Devastators and an entire Deathwing Terminator squad. His dice really hated him. My Death Company didn't even get the chance to charge anyone due to everyone that I intended to attack dying.

Obviously this was quite a friendly, and a hugely enjoyable game. And the DA players could have fielded different squads or used/deployed them differently. I was disappointed with my assault squad. They're good and getting somewhere quickly, but don't have the power weapons to really threaten anyone, besides the Sergeant, of course. They charged a Techmarine with artificer armour and were still fighting him come the end of the game. I lost one of the assault marines in the process. Boo!

My tactical marines worked well. Both 5 man squads had a heavy flamer and they were quite effective. My Furioso also inflicted some serious damage to a DA tactical squad that had dropped via a drop pod.

Regarding the assault squad, you should pick your targets to charge, especially if the tech had a servo harness. Good save, plus the ability to easily kill a few basic guys a turn is easy for him. Weight of attacks may have bought him down, but if you are going to go down that route, you should be throwing death company at such targets, not your assault squads (unless they are equipped with AP2 melee, or have a character tooled up with AP2 attached that is).

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Regarding the assault squad, you should pick your targets to charge, especially if the tech had a servo harness. Good save, plus the ability to easily kill a few basic guys a turn is easy for him. Weight of attacks may have bought him down, but if you are going to go down that route, you should be throwing death company at such targets, not your assault squads (unless they are equipped with AP2 melee, or have a character tooled up with AP2 attached that is).

I'm thinking of giving the Sgt in the second assault squad a powerfist. The current one has a power axe.

It's the rest of the squad that doesn't really 'pull their weight' to me. Sure, they can gallop through the air at 12", but a meltagun and possibly a flamer doesn't really impress me. And it's not just the techmarine, either. last week I faced off against another DA army and used them to assault a squad of scouts. It took two whole turns (four rounds of CC) before my bespoke assault squad killed them all. WFT? I'd always had the impression that an assault squad is a great assault... well, squad.

I was using my Death Company against several other squads last night. But they never got into combat because my Devastators and my allies' Orks were doing such a fantastic job.

My plan for the assault squad is to have a Sgt with a Powerfist, possible a Plasma pistol or Inferno pistol if he can use it. And then include a Meltagun and hand flamer in the squad. Is there anything else I can add to make them more effective?

I don't use BA ASM. I use DC or Vanguards. For the exact reason you stated.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use BA ASM. I use DC or Vanguards. For the exact reason you stated.

Fair enough.

Next on my 'to-buy' list.

One more question. What vehicles can BA marines assault from in the same turn as dismounting? Obviously, I presume a Land Raider is one such vehicle. What about a Razorback? I know they can't from a Rhino.

 Flugel Meister wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use BA ASM. I use DC or Vanguards. For the exact reason you stated.

Fair enough.

Next on my 'to-buy' list.

One more question. What vehicles can BA marines assault from in the same turn as dismounting? Obviously, I presume a Land Raider is one such vehicle. What about a Razorback? I know they can't from a Rhino.

Land Raider or Stormraven. Nothing else. That's a big part of the problem with the list, actually. If you want to assault, you need to use jump troops. Who often get shot to pieces.

Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

The drop melta thing frankly sucks, imo. You are paying a lot for three BS 4 melta shots. Against Ravenwing and Wave Serpents, etc, it's a total joke.

The problem with the powerfist Sarge is he has a good chance of getting punked in a challenge.

Its hard to make ASM more than bullies. Against other MEQs, with a 5man ASM squad, you'll want to soften the other squd first, and make sure you have a numbers advantage.

ASM have +1A/model over normal Marines, and a Jumppack. That means they can get there faster and fight noticeably better, but not outclass regular tacs. It comes down to 3A/model plus possibly a HoW vs 1A a model. For survivable units, like Tacs, you'll grind them down. But if its a Dev squad you charged into, it may take a few rounds to win, but they sure aren't shooting again.

Against other armies, there can often be better uses. Things like Artillery units, chasing a Skimmer, etc. Even against Orks, having an ASM squad assist when a Tac squad spoils the charge (by charging first when Orks get close) can have a large impact.

All that is for regular Marines. For BA, your assaults are even better. But ASM are still bullies.

If you want actual CC units things like Bikes or DC or Termies are what you're looking for. Or you can use ASM to escort an IC (although that isn't enough to consider it as a death star).

If the DA were using Devs as well, using ASM and Devs should be fine in your meta. After all, FC is better on Devs than Stubborn, easily.

Also, in a casual meta, 1-2 MG in an ASM said can do interesting g things. Good chance at slagging that Tech marine. An unreliable threat to any vehicle. Not as competitive as podded Melts, but it can do things.

Land Speeders with TML are good alternative to Devs. We have so many fasts slots, it wouldt be a problem running 6 single TML/heavy bolter speeders. At 75 points per model we are looking at 450 points for 12 ML shots and 18 heavy bolter shots.

Now BA speeders are not amazing, but we really have limited shooting options. ML's are good at hull pointing most mech, dealing with MC and the frag option combined with bolters make for great anti infantry.

The nice thing about TML speeders is mobility and range. If you really need to focus fire something it's much easier to do when most of your firepower has a 60" threat range. Just avoid squadrons at all costs. Also good for grabbing hard to reach objectives or linebreaker.

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

The drop melta thing frankly sucks, imo. You are paying a lot for three BS 4 melta shots. Against Ravenwing and Wave Serpents, etc, it's a total joke.

But against russes, rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders, monoliths, obelisks, and most importantly KNIGHTS it's pretty awesome.

Not since they changed the vehicle table.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Yeah...the only use for BA assault squads is drop pod melta, and some have even stopped doing that.

Basically, BA are in a weird place because Assault is today's 40k is such an uphill struggle that their assault bonuses barely matter in most competitive games. So...what else do they have going for them? Fast tanks and transports is actually a pretty big deal, but pretty much none of our available formations have Fast Tanks in them. Where's the Baal Predator formation that gives some bonus we may or may not give a crap about? How about some formations that involve vindicators or normal preds?

GW really dropped the ball by not further supporting BAs Fast vehicles with additional rules. We'll buy the gak if you give us a reason to.

The drop melta thing frankly sucks, imo. You are paying a lot for three BS 4 melta shots. Against Ravenwing and Wave Serpents, etc, it's a total joke.

But against russes, rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders, monoliths, obelisks, and most importantly KNIGHTS it's pretty awesome.

Yeah, I take the melta option but don't heavily rely on it. If I drop a five man ASM squad with 2 melta options, there's no guarantee that I'll be killing anything. Three meltas would improve the odds.

It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

When facing top tier lists, that may be a good point.

*Both* of the DA players took Dev squads. IIRC, DA Dev squads get no benefit that actually helps them. That, along with many other things he's said, lead me to believe his meta is not bleeding edge competitiveness.

From what we know of his meta, there is good reason to believe things like Dev squads and Melta Guns will perform reasonably.

If every army he faced were IK and WK spam, what you say would be true. But he had his ASM locked in CC with a Techmarine who'd die quickly to Melta, and his Devs traded shots with their Devs.

It would be novel to even be able to contemplate putting one of my 16 devastator models on the table. I have them from back when they were decent.

As has already been mentioned by Bharring, the power fist isn't a particularly good weapon for the Assault squad Sgt. In a challenge, chances are he will be killed off with his single wound before he can swing it. I would only stick to weapons that he can swing at full initiative. For me, the powerfist works best on a model that is not a character and thus can be hidden in the unit or towards the back and not get challenged out. An example could be a veteran in a command squad.

Whenever I have fielded Assault marines, they have never really contributed much to the game and I've found them to be a bit of a let down. My Death Company always out perform them. Points are better spent on landspeeders, but that's just from my personal experience.

Have you considered bikers? I know other chapters do them a LOT better, but still. A biker squad with grav-guns might be a lot more effective than those assault marines.

I do have a powerfist tac sarge (vet) that I field all the time, but more for fluff reasons. It can kinda work if I have a Captain/CM in the unit that wants the Challenge.

All my powerfists are on DC models. My old 5th ed sergeants are all torn apart by now.

Meltas can be interesting if you have enough of them to get 2-3 penetrating hits - do that, and who cares if you get the kaboom or not, they're now down 2-3 hull points plus whatever you got on the damage chart. 3HP wrecks most vehicles.

Then again, I play Sisters, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tau, who might be the only armies that can come down with meltas and get 2-3 pens.

The two meltas you can get on an ASM squad aren't that good if you're counting on one-shotting a tank, because you can't count on that anymore, but they're fine for fairly reliably removing hull points.

Who wants to need to get within melta range to HP strip? The vehicle paradigm in this game is so stupid.

I personally love it.

It forces you to get close to use it. So its not all about either sitting back and shooting or rushing forward and chopping.

And if you need to get close, sure Bikes may do it better, but ASM do it better than Tacs. I wish my ASM could take Malta.

But then, in my games, its fairly common for the average pen to matter (most of the damage chart has a debilitating effect).

Getting close is the devil in 7th ed. You can get close, but you take 80% casualties getting there.

Depends on which game you play. WK Gladius Tournyhammer, sure, a single MG on an ASM squad isn't doing much. But that doesn't sound like the Warhammer played in his local meta.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

Sorry...what? Most MC's are tough 6. Most cant handle AP 1. So what are you saying? Shrug it off? I don't understand this comment.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

Sorry...what? Most MC's are tough 6. Most cant handle AP 1. So what are you saying? Shrug it off? I don't understand this comment.

I’m pretty sure his main issue is rate of fire. Sure, you get close, and melta a wound off a MC. Assuming it doesn’t have an invuln or some other way to ignore it. It’s got more wounds, so is still working at 100%. It then deletes one of your squads. Your turn, you strip another wound off. It might be half dead at this point, but still deletes another one of your units.

Melta can work to kill MCs, just not very fast. And considering the range you need to be in, and the general lethality of MCs, it’s not a particularly good tool for the job.

well clearly you dont bring just one melta. And once its gone, your melta spamming has a highly desirous effect when coupled with your bolters. So i think its a matter of bringing massive firepower to the point of attack and employing the overkill rule: No kill is like Overkill.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It also depends on if you bring them to bear to Malta a vehicle, or if you bring them to bully, and the melts is just there to spook their vehicles.

No one who is any good is spooked by meltas. Math, yo. Meltas have been defanged. The only real reason to take them is to pray for 5+ for Imperial knights. And you can assault after firing them. The fact that MCs just shrug off melta like it's nothing really hurts them too.

Sorry...what? Most MC's are tough 6. Most cant handle AP 1. So what are you saying? Shrug it off? I don't understand this comment.

This is just another line of thinking spawned by the super-efficiency of today's top tier shooting units. It's not that Melta isn't an option to put wounds on MCs or blow apart vehicles, it's just that it's no longer the best option. If you go back and look at many of the comments surrounding this issue, the 33% chance to destroy a Land Raider or do multiple Hull Points to a super-heavy just isn't good enough in a world where Grav, Haywire, and D weapons exist. Heck, mass S6 and S7 shooting is good enough to hull point out most vehicles (from the right angles) and is also good at killing infantry, so spending points on melta shots (or the equivalent in non-marine armies) is, at this point, considered overkill or unnecessary.

I still use Meltagun toting assault marines in a drop pod (2 units) because i've got them painted up, they do the job I've outlined for them, and I don't mind the 33% chance of ultimate success, but they would probably come out of the list if I actually started allying in some more efficient shooting units that could do their job better (or painted up some grav bikers, which wouldn't require allies).

Interesting. Not every army has an alternative source in great abundance. I see the point you're making (obviously) and have always been one to consider the alternative routes.

However, blood Angels really don't have that "alternative" built in much. So if we're still talking about Blood Angels, I think you have to deal in their reality which is that getting the angles on vehicles is just as easy for them with a Melta as any weapon and the melta is the weapon they have the most use of for that job.

Maneuvering is much easier for Assault Marines and tanks because they can deep strike or pod in etc... the main battle tanks for Blood angels can tear up normal infantry but against tanks the meltas is king in the blood Angels arsenal (again given the number of them they can realistically bring).

An off example is Sisters of Battle. melta is all they have pretty much. But they have a ton of it and i can alpha strike any Imperial Knight or "big thing" off the board in turn one. Blood Angels can do it in turn two usually if they are built that way.

Anywho, I was quite caught off guard by the idea that you would say that a MC "shrugs off" STR 8 ap1 weapons. I dont see that as being a very accurate depiction.

 Jancoran wrote:
Interesting. Not every army has an alternative source in great abundance. I see the point you're making (obviously) and have always been one to consider the alternative routes.

However, blood Angels really don't have that "alternative" built in much. So if we're still talking about Blood Angels, I think you have to deal in their reality which is that getting the angles on vehicles is just as easy for them with a Melta as any weapon and the melta is the weapon they have the most use of for that job.

Maneuvering is much easier for Assault Marines and tanks because they can deep strike or pod in etc... the main battle tanks for Blood angels can tear up normal infantry but against tanks the meltas is king in the blood Angels arsenal (again given the number of them they can realistically bring).

An off example is Sisters of Battle. melta is all they have pretty much. But they have a ton of it and i can alpha strike any Imperial Knight or "big thing" off the board in turn one. Blood Angels can do it in turn two usually if they are built that way.

Anywho, I was quite caught off guard by the idea that you would say that a MC "shrugs off" STR 8 ap1 weapons. I dont see that as being a very accurate depiction.

BA reality sucks, because they don't have the new hotness of HPing out vehicles from 36" away and taking trivial return fire.

MCs indeed don't about weapons that aren't at least ROF 2.This means plasma and grav are legit, but plasma is basically a loser against WK. But it's still better than melta with ROF 1. Hell, melta isn't even that good against vehicles anymore. As far as MCs go, MCs shrugging off melta as trivial is extremely accurate. Hell, they shrug off my entire gakking list.

And you can't get enough meltas close enough to Riptides to even scratch them. If you send four meltas, one might get to 12". The others will all be vaporized.

The main tanks for BA are now mostly unplayable garbage anyway, so I'm not counting on them for anything.

" But they have a ton of it and i can alpha strike any Imperial Knight or "big thing" off the board in turn one"

Not a Riptide or Wraithknight. Welcome to 7th ed.

" coupled with your bolters."

You keep acting like bolters matter. They don't. They haven't for a while now.

Baal Preds are still a thing, last I checked. Yeah they're worse than tri las preds or missile/las devs against av12+, but they still have chances against them. Against battle companies they make a ton of money, as 6 str5 shots and 4 str6 twin linked shots will strip them quite nicely.

Melta isn't an ideal option against monsters or vehicles you just need to strip hp from, but they give things like marines a weapon that allows you to chance blowing up a tank or take a wound or two off of a monster before you charge it.

I agree about not taking init1 weapons on sgts. Particularly in the Baal Strike Force formation, when 4 attacks at str5 ap3 init5 will win him challenges against things like nobs, other marine sgts, etc, and at the least tie him in challenges vs eldar exarchs.

The side armor, price and slot for the Baal pred are all really, really unfortunate. The assault cannon is universally overpriced in the Imperial army.

Martel732 wrote:
The side armor, price and slot for the Baal pred are all really, really unfortunate. The assault cannon is universally overpriced in the Imperial army.

Most weapons, upgrades, and vehicles (fair number of units too) are overpriced in Imperial armies. Which is why the appropriately costed stuff and rare under-costed items are almost always auto-includes. SM are the worst offender with grav because that is pretty much all they got.

Thanks again for all your comments.

As I already have three bikers that came with my purchase of Dark Vengeance I may opt to go down the Biker route. But I'll probably start from scratch as those bikers are fairly basic (Plasma Gun). The good thing is T5 and jink, which is a pain to fight against. I know, I had to face off against Ravenwing several weeks ago and they were really annoying.

Okay, Martel, I'm convinced. land Speeders will be added to my 'To-buy' list, along with Vanguard Veterans and a Tri-Las Predator.

I'm still looking at a Land Raider Crusader. I could fill it with Tactical Marines and several IC, or use Death Company, Vets or terminators. Sure, It's big, expensive and will attract fire, but I can charge out of it and get into combat in one go.

Stormravens are also on the list.

QUESTION: With regards to the LR Crusader, is it possible to put three 5-man tactical marines in it? I'd love to use 3 Heavy Flamers, 3 Sergeants with whatever weapons they have and then have the Tactical marines fire their Bolt Pistols instead of their Bolters, so they can still charge. I ould also add an IC to the 15 tactcial marines for added punch. A Sanguinary Priest could be fun. Or a librarian.

No it's not a super heavy. Only one unit.

Also bear in mind, that regardless of being a skimmer or assault vehicle (Such as the Land Raider) you cannot disembark if you move over 6" unless there is a rule (Such as on the Storm Raven, Skies of Fury rule) That allows it. Also, if you do disembark out of something moving further than 6" thanks to a rule, 99.99% of the time it will prevent the charge. So bear that in mind if you're using your Land Raider to drop an assault unit in prep for charge.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Okay.

I'll probably shove 15 DC inside with a Chaplain.

However, Another question.

With a LR Crusader, I presume I can put in a full Tactical squad and, if I want, up to 5 attached IC?

So, for example: 10 Tactical marines, 1 Librarian, 1 Sanguinary Priest, 1 Techmarine, 1 Chaplain, 1 Captain all inside a LR Crusader. Can I do that?

You can do that, but land raiders and chaplains are both bad in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:
You can do that, but land raiders and chaplains are both bad in 7th.

What can I say? I like both.

Then go for it. Chaplains used to be quite good, so I'm probably just bitter there. The land raider has NEVER performed up to its cost. Ever.

What about running:

Raphen's Death Company (Deathstorm)

Cassor the Damned (Deathstorm)

Then wouldn't the Death Company squad and DC Dread take up troop slots and have OB Sec?

Also the Angels Fury Spearhead Force has a way for units deepstriking to assault the same turn they enter! The problem is you need to buy 3 Stormraven Gunships for the formation

 Phydox wrote:
What about running:

Raphen's Death Company (Deathstorm)

Cassor the Damned (Deathstorm)

Then wouldn't the Death Company squad and DC Dread take up troop slots and have OB Sec?

Also the Angels Fury Spearhead Force has a way for units deepstriking to assault the same turn they enter! The problem is you need to buy 3 Stormraven Gunships for the formation

Maybe; I don't have that FW book. If the DC dread is AV 12, I'd pass.

Flugel,
You may find you have too many points invested on one OK death star.

If you come to that conclusion, you could try spreading around the love. A few 8-9-man Tac squads in Rhinos, each with an IC. It means you need to weather one turn in the open, though, and that's costly. But if you lose one squad, the second then charges. You'll have more squads, but each one would be weaker.

Start the way you want. Try piling that squad into a LR, and enjoy. But if you find you want to change it, there are a number of ways to do similar but differently.

With BA, you probably want 5 man tac squads in rhinos or razors. Lately, I've quit using razors (which sucks because I have 8) because they just cost too much for AV 11. Typically I only use two or three tac squads. It's important to minimize the number of bolters in your list.

Can you still run the Baal strike force formation with Raphen's Death Company and Cassor as troops or do you have to stick to Karlean, terminators etc and not get the +1 initiative when charging?

 Slaphead wrote:
Can you still run the Baal strike force formation with Raphen's Death Company and Cassor as troops or do you have to stick to Karlean, terminators etc and not get the +1 initiative when charging?

If they troops, it should work. Baal strike force doesn't have restrictions on what the troops are; just troops.

Cool

 Phydox wrote:
What about running:

Raphen's Death Company (Deathstorm)

Cassor the Damned (Deathstorm)

Then wouldn't the Death Company squad and DC Dread take up troop slots and have OB Sec?

Also the Angels Fury Spearhead Force has a way for units deepstriking to assault the same turn they enter! The problem is you need to buy 3 Stormraven Gunships for the formation

I don't have those books, so I have no idea what's involved. I generally stick to the Baal Strike Force.

I've recently been using 2x 5-man tactical squads, each aimed at providing lots of close-range firepower after getting out of their transports (Rhino's). Each has a Sgt with a Chainsword and Storm bolter, and each squad features a Heavy Flamer.

Both Rhino's charge forward. When in the right position both squads get out, hose the enemy with fire before my DC or ASM jump in for CC. By that time the enemy squad(s) have taken several wounds, thinning their numbers. And if need be the two 5-man tactical squads can jump in the following turn or head for someone else. I've also got Sgts that are kitted out for CC or tougher opponents in general, such as a PF or Power sword and a plasma pistol or inferno pistol.

Both combinations work well and I can tailor both squads for different roles: Fire Support or Close Combat. If I want my tactical marines to both fire and charge in they simply use their bolt pistols instead of their bolters. And I can kit each squad with a meltagun if required.

I can also change one rhino into a Razorback for added punch, though I don't like the steep points cost in comparison.

Currently, this is what I own:

HQ
x1 Mephiston
x1 Corbulo
x1 Terminator Chaplain
x1 Chaplain with JP

ELITES
x15 Tactical Terminators
x5 DC with JP
x1 Furioso

TROOPS
x25 Tactical Marines (2x HF, 2x Meltaguns, 1x PC)
x1 Rhino
x1 Razorback with TL HB

FAST ATTACK
x10 ASM with JP

HEAVY SUPPORT
x10 Devastator (2x Las, 2x PC, 2x MM, 2x ML)

My next planned purchase is going to be one or more of the following: Land Speeders, Predators, more DC, Vanguard Vets with JP.

Mephiston works best with additional libbies in the army. At least one other, maybe more with a dual CAD or dual flesh tearer strike force. Divination Mephiston is surprisingly effective with some sternguard.

Against choppy forces, I try to get my Tacs to assault the same turn as my ASM, if feasible.

Remember that each Tac has a Bolt Pistol and Krak/Frag grenades. Those can be fired before assaulting.

So? TWC and WK don' t care.

Bharring wrote:
Against choppy forces, I try to get my Tacs to assault the same turn as my ASM, if feasible.

Remember that each Tac has a Bolt Pistol and Krak/Frag grenades. Those can be fired before assaulting.

Mentioned in my previous post.

Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

If you mean Dante, not so often, I'd say 2, I dont like playing LoW.
But he is the best IC in the codex, no doubt.

 Slaphead wrote:
Can you still run the Baal strike force formation with Raphen's Death Company and Cassor as troops or do you have to stick to Karlean, terminators etc and not get the +1 initiative when charging?

You make Capt Karlean sound like a stiff. He's really good in something deepstrike heavy, like ArchAngel Formation. Hes a little more points then a reg termie captain but he has counter attack and furious charge, iron halo and a MC Thunderhammer. His warlord trait lets you re roll seize and when you roll for reserves. So when hes in an army with the Archangel formation you have:

turn one deep striking
re-rolling reserves
1d6 scatter
stubborn
captain with Counter-attack

ouch.

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

If you mean Dante, not so often, I'd say 2, I dont like playing LoW.
But he is the best IC in the codex, no doubt.

Dante isn't really a proper LoW.

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

Only got hold of Mephiston on Wednesday. Haven't used him yet and he needs painting.

Additionally, I dropped the Devastator squad from my 1,000 point list in favour of another 5-man ASM squad.

So, my 1,000 point list reads like this:

HQ
Chaplain with JP, Inferno pistol, Crozius.

ELITES
x5 DC (1 PF, 1 PW, 2 Inferno pistols, 1 plasma pistol)
x1 Furioso (Blood talons)

TROOPS
x5 tactical marines (Rhino, HF, Sgt with Storm bolter & Chainsword)
x5 tactical marines (Rhino, HF, Sgt with Storm bolter & Chainsword)

FAST ATTACK
x5 ASM (Sgt with power axe and plasma pistol, marine with 1 meltagun)
x5 ASM (Sgt with thunder hammer and inferno pistol, marine with 1 meltagun)

I know there are other options, but I lack the miniatures.

This set-up currently works well for me and if I require added punch I can change the HF for meltaguns, and lose an ASM squad for a dev squad. I can also change a rhino to a razorback, but will obviously have to juggle the points.

I know some people don't rate the Tactical marines, but I like them and they can be fairly flexible in what role you can assign them.

Both the Furioso and the DC will be roaming elements that can both attract fire and be used to take out specific targets. The 2 ASM squads are there to specifically support the 2 tactical squads.

I cant tell. The death company...have jump packs?

The death company have far too many special weapons and no ablative wounds to hide them. I strongly recommend dropping AT LEAST one of those weapons and making one a plain old Death Company guy who can take the first hit cheap.

A Drop Pod for that Furioso would also be advisable. Even if he doesn't use it, it's a useful potential Line Breaker point and people tend to let the pods do their thing if they aren't in the way. In small point battles, Line Breaker can definitely be the difference.

The marines in the Rhino would be fine, but a Storm Bolter seems an odd addition for two reasons. First, it steals attacks from you in melee. I also see that you have a heavy Flamer in there which is an excellent weapon choice and makes this a more assault oriented unit. If that's the case then a Combi-flamer makes more sense for the Sergeant. Why? When the Rhino moves quickly you're not firing. when it doesn't, it means your Heavy Flamer is probably in position to fire!

All in all, a combi-flamer seems like a better idea on your Sgt.

That's good advice, but even better: get rid of the blood talons and go frag cannon. Often, the furioso dies before it can assault, because walkers suck in 7th. At least with a frag cannon/heavy flamer you can dish out some ignore cover hurt before you die.

Don't ever use storm bolters. Bolter weapons are terrible unless they have special ammo.

Don't put unwieldy weapons on sergeants. They will get challenged out and killed.

Both plasma pistols and inferno pistols are terrible. Don't pay for them.

ASM should have double special weapons, with a possible combi on the sarge.

Fragiosso do work. There again a Drop pod would be magnificently useful at times. Plant it literally an inch from the thing you want dead and let scatter dice fly. 6" move out should probably put you easily within reach of your chosen target even if it scatters and it doesn't care about scatter like some things do.

The Fragioso is a bit of a wild card in smaller games because survivabiltiy gets to being at a premium in such games so you may see tougher units and the Frag Cannon as good as it is may not see as many squishy targets. A canny foe can null deploy against the alpha strike. It also puts the Drop pod in harms way POTENTIALLY, which reduces its chances of getting LineBreaker for you. having said all that its really hard to dislike the Fragioso. It won't mill through a flank like the Blood Talons will eventually but it does have the advantage of not being as likely to die before it performs. At 1,000 points the Dreads are going to last a bit longer in general just because points are at a premium for th other guy also.

Unless he takes a Death Company like yours. hehehe. Then that dread is in trouble.

So Fragioso has a lot of virtue to it.

Also, if its an Elite slot that wants a pod, and he has an empty FA slot, should he take it as FA instead? That way, if he ever decides something else should ride it, he can.

Unlikely to be useful, but no real cost for doing so? He may, in some games, need to drop a Tac squad on the back line instead of his Dreadnaught.

Yup, excellent suggestion. I like that suggestion.

Dante is basically a slotless HQ as opposed to a LoW. Ironically enough, the thing that hurts Azreal and Marny actually helps his case, as you can take him alongside a priest and another HQ like a librarian. I've started running him in the Angel's Wrath Intervention Force in a 5 man vanguard vet squad with melta bombs and storm shields, with a sanguinary priest rocking the Angel's Wings and a lvl1 sanguinary libby wielding Gallien's Staff. That gives him between 7 and 9 ws7 str7 init8-10 attacks on the charge in a unit with 3++/5+++.

And Mephiston is actually pretty great, particularly because he does something that our codex usually struggles with: chopping imperial and wraithknights in half.

Bharring wrote:
Also, if its an Elite slot that wants a pod, and he has an empty FA slot, should he take it as FA instead? That way, if he ever decides something else should ride it, he can.

Unlikely to be useful, but no real cost for doing so? He may, in some games, need to drop a Tac squad on the back line instead of his Dreadnaught.

What happens to the tac squad's Rhino?

Naked fast reasonably survivable obsec for 35pts

It wouldn't be often you'd want to do it. But you may have great need of putting something on their objective right away, or something.

Blood Angels rhinos are 10 points more per model than standard SM rhinos because ours are fast. Not a huge difference but it does come in to play.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Land Raider Crusader purchased, along with 15 Death Company. Whoot!

I'm looking forward to trying these out in larger battles: 2,000+ points.

Played a 1,500 pts battle against one of the more experienced members of the club last night. He was using Ultramarines as the Gladius (I think that's what it's called) company formation.

Unfortunately, the formation granted so many bonuses I simply couldn't compete. Extra vehicles at no cost, re-rolling to hit with tactical troops, Devastators discipline, etc. Jesus. So painful.

I managed to hurt him at first. Took out a razorback with my first two shots of the game, but simply couldn't back up my assault-focussed force with enough firepower.

It was my first time using Mephiston but I totally fethed things up for him. Attached him to a tactical squad in a Razorback and charged them forward to take an objective. It was taken out pretty quickly. And I chose purely blood angel powers for him to use. All I had left after turn 4 was four devastators.

Do we have anything that can compete with this type of formation?

What was your list ?
BA will always struggle against Gladius unfortunately.

Probably the best BA can do in that situation is MSU, but you'll be on the backfoot due to the amount of free stuff Gladius gets.

I'd probably go something like this. Baal Strike Force, 1499pts :-

Librarian w/ Jump Pack
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon

I used, and I realise I'm a novice here:

HQ
Mephiston
Chaplain with JP

ELITES
x5 DC with JP
x5 Tactical Terminators
Furioso Dreadnought.

TROOPS
x5 Tactical marines: Razorback, HF
x7 Tactical marines: Rhino, HF

FAST ATTACK
5 ASM: 1 PW, 1 PP, 1 flamer, 1 meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT
x5 Devastators: 2 Las, 2 ML

Mephiston obviously took up plenty of points, but I've never used a Librarian before, so wanted to give him a go, get some practice in.

I originally had 2 ASM squads, but once I saw how many razorbacks he was rocking I dropped one in favour of a dev squad.

It was an objective heavy game. So he just sat on his own objectives and lumbered towards mine. I seized 3 in the first turn, not including the one my dev sqd was sat on, but I simply didn't have the means to hold them.

get a scout and more assault marines in there. but yeah: Batle companies were a mistake.

Get another libby to go with Mephiston. Don't get get more assault marines; they are awful units.

Bartali wrote:
What was your list ?
BA will always struggle against Gladius unfortunately.

Probably the best BA can do in that situation is MSU, but you'll be on the backfoot due to the amount of free stuff Gladius gets.

I'd probably go something like this. Baal Strike Force, 1499pts :-

Librarian w/ Jump Pack
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon

What have DC in this list got anything that will take out a Razorback?

Obviously the bikes could be used in that way, but I think the Baal Predators might suffer under the barrage of Devastators and lascannon Razorbacks. However, they would also take the heat off the DC and bikes.

What have DC in this list got anything that will take out a Razorback?

Each DC squad generates 20x S5 and 5x S6 Attacks on the charge, you'll easily hull point out a Razorback in one round of combat.

With BA you're never going to out shoot a Gladius (or anything else come to that). BA also fail when you create a traditional TAC list with some long range shooting elements coupled with assault elements.

BA in my mind work best when the whole army is mostly kept together and operating at <18" from your opponent. Shoot Grav, Melta, Flamestorm templates, punch stuff with your DC.
BA have got speed, so If your opponent sets up badly, try and work down a flank where most of your army can work on a portion of his.
Getting in close also makes it more difficult for your opponent to draw LOS when they have multiple vehicles tripping over each other.

Bartali wrote:

What have DC in this list got anything that will take out a Razorback?

Each DC squad generates 20x S5 and 5x S6 Attacks on the charge, you'll easily hull point out a Razorback in one round of combat.

With BA you're never going to out shoot a Gladius (or anything else come to that). BA also fail when you create a traditional TAC list with some long range shooting elements coupled with assault elements.

BA in my mind work best when the whole army is mostly kept together and operating at <18" from your opponent. Shoot Grav, Melta, Flamestorm templates, punch stuff with your DC.
BA have got speed, so If your opponent sets up badly, try and work down a flank where most of your army can work on a portion of his.
Getting in close also makes it more difficult for your opponent to draw LOS when they have multiple vehicles tripping over each other.

Ordinarily I would have just deployed in a single area, possibly one of the flanks. but because of the 6 objectives that were dispersed around the board I was forced to deploy far more spread out that usual.

In hindsight I should have just opted to go for one flank anyway, making my attacks more punchy and effective. he can drive forward and take as many objectives as he wants, as I'm never going to stop him completely.

I may have even kept the Devastators as a means of taking out vehicles at longer ranges, covering the other flank.

He was also using Crimson Fists doctrine, so he could re-roll just about everything. His tactical squads became surprisingly effective, and my assault squad failed their charge and were left in the open. I've re-examined the battle many times, but the best I could hope for is losing but taking out several of his vehicles or troops in CC. Anything else would be a bonus.

Oh, and it turns out he's one of the club's tournament players. The game was to test out his Gladius force.

Grab 3-4 quad mortars from Forgeworld. They are allowed by many tournaments now.

Great for dealing with transports and msu. Gives BA the much needed firesupport it's lacking.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/RapierQuadMortar40k.pdf

I had been looking at them.

Thanks!

The problem with your list as it stands is that it doesn't do anything particularly well.
SM can get away with doing a list like that, as they get given free stuff for doing it (Gladius). BA don't.

I can't emphasis this enough - if playing against anything other than very casual lists, you really need focus in your list

Bartali wrote:
The problem with your list as it stands is that it doesn't do anything particularly well.
SM can get away with doing a list like that, as they get given free stuff for doing it (Gladius). BA don't.

I can't emphasis this enough - if playing against anything other than very casual lists, you really need focus in your list

Agreed. I've now got 15 DC without JP, and 5 with JP for some much needed CC punch.

I'm also getting a Pred and possibly a Vindicator as well, for mobile fire support.

After that I'll be expanding on either bikes or land speeders, for increased mobility, while maintaining a decent level of firepower.

The whole Gladius thing was completely unexpected. I've never faced a formation before. So I'll chalk it up as a learning experience. I found it both interesting and frustrating, mainly because of the amount of freebies he had and the distinct lack of formations for BA.

In your opinion, what would you have used against Gladius?

Blood Angels are one of the factions that I would say have the most formations in the game. Check out the Blood of Kittens website and you'll see a list of all formations available to you.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Blood Angels are one of the factions that I would say have the most formations in the game. Check out the Blood of Kittens website and you'll see a list of all formations available to you.

But we don't have any formations that grant us 'free' things. unlike Gladius and its 10 free Razorbacks.

Playing against gladius is a good benchmark for making an efficient list. I have played with and against them. Focusing on transports and not marines should help. Also, avoid suicide units like tri melta in pods. 1 is fine, but drop pods are horrible against gladius. Gladius are excellent at dealing with alpha strike lists. Also stay away from units like: Dreadnoughts, Predators, Baal Preds and Land Speeders (TML variant is ok, but marginal at best with BA).

I recommend at least 3 quad mortarts, use the sunder shots to cripple mobility/transports asap. Sicaran and Scorpius are nice. Void shield your artillery. A few multi melta attack bikes to tarpit msu or pot shots at armor. Assault marines in rhinos with double melta or plasma if your playing maelstrom, they are very point efficient even though they lack obsec.

For assault msu DC works nice, try to hide them mid field or protect your fire support vs alpha. Hammernators with a sanguinary priest is also a fine anchor unit, but it does lack mobility.

Get dozer blades on most of your transports, cram them into ruins as much as possible if your unlikely to do much dmg that turn, or pop smoke.

A few 3man bike squads with grav can also help, it has a small footprint so easier to hide.

An IC, like Dante can really do work on msu squads and with hit and run he won't be slowed down. Throw him in a shooty command squad (meltas) so they don't overkill units in assault.

Gladius is rough. I murdered 60 tac marines one game and still lost.

 Flugel Meister wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Blood Angels are one of the factions that I would say have the most formations in the game. Check out the Blood of Kittens website and you'll see a list of all formations available to you.

But we don't have any formations that grant us 'free' things. unlike Gladius and its 10 free Razorbacks.

See the Archangels Sanguine Wing. 400 points of free gear. Also, it's not only fun to run but fairly effective, especially when paired with supporting elements.

You have to bring a Stormraven, which sucks, and your assault units are in reserve, which sucks, but other than that, it's okay.

I'd disagree that the Stormraven sucks and it's definitely quite a bit of hard-hitting free stuff to get out of that formation. Yes free transports from the battle company are great, but they don't deal much damage themselves. I'd rather be getting free melta guns, plasma guns, and power weapons than rhinos/drop pods if I had the choice. After all, the drop pod for my sternguard only costs 35 points, but giving them all combi weapons costs me 100 for the 10 man unit.

The Sternguard have to be in the Stormraven, though.

Sounds like I'm fu**ed either way.

What's free in the Sanguine Wing?

I should have been more clear there, I don't mean buying a drop pod for the sternguard in that formation. I mean getting a drop pod for a unit in general like that in the battle company only saves me 35 points (70 if I'm buying 2 for that many models), while the Sanguine Wing is saving me 100 points there.

You get free combi weapons for sternguards and power weapons/lightning claws for vanguard vets. If you're looking for formations to help pad out your army, then check out that list of them on blood of kittens or some other site. Blood Angels have more formations than many other factions and they give fun tricks like free gear and assaulting out of reserves.

Why are you saying you're screwed either way though? You said you don't have access to formations or get to have free stuff to compete with and I'm pointing out why that isn't true.

In a casual game, I think you will do fine.

Played last night. Blood angels vs Dark Angels, 2,000 points each.

What a great game! I probably am more of a casual player, but still want to be reasonably effective in games.

Anyway, my opponent had a Knight and Azrael, among other things. I took 14 Death Company, Mephiston and a chaplain in a LR Crusader, among other things.

My 10 man Assault sqd with JP were abysmal. Next to useless, really. But my DC and Mephiston were far more effective. They charged the Knight after shooting it up a bit with inferno and plasma pistols, scoring a couple of hull points. The first guy to strike was Mephiston with his Sanguine Sword. I landed 4 strength 10 attacks, 2 glancing, 2 penetrating. Rolled on the damage table. Boom! I lost half the DC squad and my chaplain in the explosion. But it was spectacular. Really pleased with Mephiston, especially after his terrible performance last week.

I also dropped my Furioso just a few inches behind his LR Crusader. It didn't scatter (thankfully). My Furioso lumbered out of the pod, levelled its underslung Meltagun at the LR and scored a penetrating hit. I then rolled a 6 on the vehicle damage table. Boom!

Unfortunately I didn't get the chance for Mephiston to take on Azrael in CC as we ran out of time.

I've since added a Predator Annihilator to my line up, but it'll be a while before I get any bikes or land speeders, or anything else for that matter. And I borrowed the drop pod.