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 Slaphead wrote:
Can you still run the Baal strike force formation with Raphen's Death Company and Cassor as troops or do you have to stick to Karlean, terminators etc and not get the +1 initiative when charging?

You make Capt Karlean sound like a stiff. He's really good in something deepstrike heavy, like ArchAngel Formation. Hes a little more points then a reg termie captain but he has counter attack and furious charge, iron halo and a MC Thunderhammer. His warlord trait lets you re roll seize and when you roll for reserves. So when hes in an army with the Archangel formation you have:

turn one deep striking
re-rolling reserves
1d6 scatter
stubborn
captain with Counter-attack

ouch.

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

If you mean Dante, not so often, I'd say 2, I dont like playing LoW.
But he is the best IC in the codex, no doubt.

Dante isn't really a proper LoW.

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Dante is the beast that Mephiston was almost and I like Dante a lot. My burning hatred for Mephiston in the 5E codex remains to this day so i am always pleased to see Dante (and then he hits me like a feight train and i silently curse).

Anywho, On a scale of 1 to 10, how often do you use him in your list?

Only got hold of Mephiston on Wednesday. Haven't used him yet and he needs painting.

Additionally, I dropped the Devastator squad from my 1,000 point list in favour of another 5-man ASM squad.

So, my 1,000 point list reads like this:

HQ
Chaplain with JP, Inferno pistol, Crozius.

ELITES
x5 DC (1 PF, 1 PW, 2 Inferno pistols, 1 plasma pistol)
x1 Furioso (Blood talons)

TROOPS
x5 tactical marines (Rhino, HF, Sgt with Storm bolter & Chainsword)
x5 tactical marines (Rhino, HF, Sgt with Storm bolter & Chainsword)

FAST ATTACK
x5 ASM (Sgt with power axe and plasma pistol, marine with 1 meltagun)
x5 ASM (Sgt with thunder hammer and inferno pistol, marine with 1 meltagun)

I know there are other options, but I lack the miniatures.

This set-up currently works well for me and if I require added punch I can change the HF for meltaguns, and lose an ASM squad for a dev squad. I can also change a rhino to a razorback, but will obviously have to juggle the points.

I know some people don't rate the Tactical marines, but I like them and they can be fairly flexible in what role you can assign them.

Both the Furioso and the DC will be roaming elements that can both attract fire and be used to take out specific targets. The 2 ASM squads are there to specifically support the 2 tactical squads.

I cant tell. The death company...have jump packs?

The death company have far too many special weapons and no ablative wounds to hide them. I strongly recommend dropping AT LEAST one of those weapons and making one a plain old Death Company guy who can take the first hit cheap.

A Drop Pod for that Furioso would also be advisable. Even if he doesn't use it, it's a useful potential Line Breaker point and people tend to let the pods do their thing if they aren't in the way. In small point battles, Line Breaker can definitely be the difference.

The marines in the Rhino would be fine, but a Storm Bolter seems an odd addition for two reasons. First, it steals attacks from you in melee. I also see that you have a heavy Flamer in there which is an excellent weapon choice and makes this a more assault oriented unit. If that's the case then a Combi-flamer makes more sense for the Sergeant. Why? When the Rhino moves quickly you're not firing. when it doesn't, it means your Heavy Flamer is probably in position to fire!

All in all, a combi-flamer seems like a better idea on your Sgt.

That's good advice, but even better: get rid of the blood talons and go frag cannon. Often, the furioso dies before it can assault, because walkers suck in 7th. At least with a frag cannon/heavy flamer you can dish out some ignore cover hurt before you die.

Don't ever use storm bolters. Bolter weapons are terrible unless they have special ammo.

Don't put unwieldy weapons on sergeants. They will get challenged out and killed.

Both plasma pistols and inferno pistols are terrible. Don't pay for them.

ASM should have double special weapons, with a possible combi on the sarge.

Fragiosso do work. There again a Drop pod would be magnificently useful at times. Plant it literally an inch from the thing you want dead and let scatter dice fly. 6" move out should probably put you easily within reach of your chosen target even if it scatters and it doesn't care about scatter like some things do.

The Fragioso is a bit of a wild card in smaller games because survivabiltiy gets to being at a premium in such games so you may see tougher units and the Frag Cannon as good as it is may not see as many squishy targets. A canny foe can null deploy against the alpha strike. It also puts the Drop pod in harms way POTENTIALLY, which reduces its chances of getting LineBreaker for you. having said all that its really hard to dislike the Fragioso. It won't mill through a flank like the Blood Talons will eventually but it does have the advantage of not being as likely to die before it performs. At 1,000 points the Dreads are going to last a bit longer in general just because points are at a premium for th other guy also.

Unless he takes a Death Company like yours. hehehe. Then that dread is in trouble.

So Fragioso has a lot of virtue to it.

Also, if its an Elite slot that wants a pod, and he has an empty FA slot, should he take it as FA instead? That way, if he ever decides something else should ride it, he can.

Unlikely to be useful, but no real cost for doing so? He may, in some games, need to drop a Tac squad on the back line instead of his Dreadnaught.

Yup, excellent suggestion. I like that suggestion.

Dante is basically a slotless HQ as opposed to a LoW. Ironically enough, the thing that hurts Azreal and Marny actually helps his case, as you can take him alongside a priest and another HQ like a librarian. I've started running him in the Angel's Wrath Intervention Force in a 5 man vanguard vet squad with melta bombs and storm shields, with a sanguinary priest rocking the Angel's Wings and a lvl1 sanguinary libby wielding Gallien's Staff. That gives him between 7 and 9 ws7 str7 init8-10 attacks on the charge in a unit with 3++/5+++.

And Mephiston is actually pretty great, particularly because he does something that our codex usually struggles with: chopping imperial and wraithknights in half.

Bharring wrote:
Also, if its an Elite slot that wants a pod, and he has an empty FA slot, should he take it as FA instead? That way, if he ever decides something else should ride it, he can.

Unlikely to be useful, but no real cost for doing so? He may, in some games, need to drop a Tac squad on the back line instead of his Dreadnaught.

What happens to the tac squad's Rhino?

Naked fast reasonably survivable obsec for 35pts

It wouldn't be often you'd want to do it. But you may have great need of putting something on their objective right away, or something.

Blood Angels rhinos are 10 points more per model than standard SM rhinos because ours are fast. Not a huge difference but it does come in to play.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Land Raider Crusader purchased, along with 15 Death Company. Whoot!

I'm looking forward to trying these out in larger battles: 2,000+ points.

Played a 1,500 pts battle against one of the more experienced members of the club last night. He was using Ultramarines as the Gladius (I think that's what it's called) company formation.

Unfortunately, the formation granted so many bonuses I simply couldn't compete. Extra vehicles at no cost, re-rolling to hit with tactical troops, Devastators discipline, etc. Jesus. So painful.

I managed to hurt him at first. Took out a razorback with my first two shots of the game, but simply couldn't back up my assault-focussed force with enough firepower.

It was my first time using Mephiston but I totally fethed things up for him. Attached him to a tactical squad in a Razorback and charged them forward to take an objective. It was taken out pretty quickly. And I chose purely blood angel powers for him to use. All I had left after turn 4 was four devastators.

Do we have anything that can compete with this type of formation?

What was your list ?
BA will always struggle against Gladius unfortunately.

Probably the best BA can do in that situation is MSU, but you'll be on the backfoot due to the amount of free stuff Gladius gets.

I'd probably go something like this. Baal Strike Force, 1499pts :-

Librarian w/ Jump Pack
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon

I used, and I realise I'm a novice here:

HQ
Mephiston
Chaplain with JP

ELITES
x5 DC with JP
x5 Tactical Terminators
Furioso Dreadnought.

TROOPS
x5 Tactical marines: Razorback, HF
x7 Tactical marines: Rhino, HF

FAST ATTACK
5 ASM: 1 PW, 1 PP, 1 flamer, 1 meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT
x5 Devastators: 2 Las, 2 ML

Mephiston obviously took up plenty of points, but I've never used a Librarian before, so wanted to give him a go, get some practice in.

I originally had 2 ASM squads, but once I saw how many razorbacks he was rocking I dropped one in favour of a dev squad.

It was an objective heavy game. So he just sat on his own objectives and lumbered towards mine. I seized 3 in the first turn, not including the one my dev sqd was sat on, but I simply didn't have the means to hold them.

get a scout and more assault marines in there. but yeah: Batle companies were a mistake.

Get another libby to go with Mephiston. Don't get get more assault marines; they are awful units.

Bartali wrote:
What was your list ?
BA will always struggle against Gladius unfortunately.

Probably the best BA can do in that situation is MSU, but you'll be on the backfoot due to the amount of free stuff Gladius gets.

I'd probably go something like this. Baal Strike Force, 1499pts :-

Librarian w/ Jump Pack
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ 1x Power Axe, Jump Packs
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/2x Grav; Multi-Melta Attack Bike
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm Cannon

What have DC in this list got anything that will take out a Razorback?

Obviously the bikes could be used in that way, but I think the Baal Predators might suffer under the barrage of Devastators and lascannon Razorbacks. However, they would also take the heat off the DC and bikes.

What have DC in this list got anything that will take out a Razorback?

Each DC squad generates 20x S5 and 5x S6 Attacks on the charge, you'll easily hull point out a Razorback in one round of combat.

With BA you're never going to out shoot a Gladius (or anything else come to that). BA also fail when you create a traditional TAC list with some long range shooting elements coupled with assault elements.

BA in my mind work best when the whole army is mostly kept together and operating at <18" from your opponent. Shoot Grav, Melta, Flamestorm templates, punch stuff with your DC.
BA have got speed, so If your opponent sets up badly, try and work down a flank where most of your army can work on a portion of his.
Getting in close also makes it more difficult for your opponent to draw LOS when they have multiple vehicles tripping over each other.

Bartali wrote:

What have DC in this list got anything that will take out a Razorback?

Each DC squad generates 20x S5 and 5x S6 Attacks on the charge, you'll easily hull point out a Razorback in one round of combat.

With BA you're never going to out shoot a Gladius (or anything else come to that). BA also fail when you create a traditional TAC list with some long range shooting elements coupled with assault elements.

BA in my mind work best when the whole army is mostly kept together and operating at <18" from your opponent. Shoot Grav, Melta, Flamestorm templates, punch stuff with your DC.
BA have got speed, so If your opponent sets up badly, try and work down a flank where most of your army can work on a portion of his.
Getting in close also makes it more difficult for your opponent to draw LOS when they have multiple vehicles tripping over each other.

Ordinarily I would have just deployed in a single area, possibly one of the flanks. but because of the 6 objectives that were dispersed around the board I was forced to deploy far more spread out that usual.

In hindsight I should have just opted to go for one flank anyway, making my attacks more punchy and effective. he can drive forward and take as many objectives as he wants, as I'm never going to stop him completely.

I may have even kept the Devastators as a means of taking out vehicles at longer ranges, covering the other flank.

He was also using Crimson Fists doctrine, so he could re-roll just about everything. His tactical squads became surprisingly effective, and my assault squad failed their charge and were left in the open. I've re-examined the battle many times, but the best I could hope for is losing but taking out several of his vehicles or troops in CC. Anything else would be a bonus.

Oh, and it turns out he's one of the club's tournament players. The game was to test out his Gladius force.

Grab 3-4 quad mortars from Forgeworld. They are allowed by many tournaments now.

Great for dealing with transports and msu. Gives BA the much needed firesupport it's lacking.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/RapierQuadMortar40k.pdf

I had been looking at them.

Thanks!

The problem with your list as it stands is that it doesn't do anything particularly well.
SM can get away with doing a list like that, as they get given free stuff for doing it (Gladius). BA don't.

I can't emphasis this enough - if playing against anything other than very casual lists, you really need focus in your list

Bartali wrote:
The problem with your list as it stands is that it doesn't do anything particularly well.
SM can get away with doing a list like that, as they get given free stuff for doing it (Gladius). BA don't.

I can't emphasis this enough - if playing against anything other than very casual lists, you really need focus in your list

Agreed. I've now got 15 DC without JP, and 5 with JP for some much needed CC punch.

I'm also getting a Pred and possibly a Vindicator as well, for mobile fire support.

After that I'll be expanding on either bikes or land speeders, for increased mobility, while maintaining a decent level of firepower.

The whole Gladius thing was completely unexpected. I've never faced a formation before. So I'll chalk it up as a learning experience. I found it both interesting and frustrating, mainly because of the amount of freebies he had and the distinct lack of formations for BA.

In your opinion, what would you have used against Gladius?

Blood Angels are one of the factions that I would say have the most formations in the game. Check out the Blood of Kittens website and you'll see a list of all formations available to you.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Blood Angels are one of the factions that I would say have the most formations in the game. Check out the Blood of Kittens website and you'll see a list of all formations available to you.

But we don't have any formations that grant us 'free' things. unlike Gladius and its 10 free Razorbacks.

Playing against gladius is a good benchmark for making an efficient list. I have played with and against them. Focusing on transports and not marines should help. Also, avoid suicide units like tri melta in pods. 1 is fine, but drop pods are horrible against gladius. Gladius are excellent at dealing with alpha strike lists. Also stay away from units like: Dreadnoughts, Predators, Baal Preds and Land Speeders (TML variant is ok, but marginal at best with BA).

I recommend at least 3 quad mortarts, use the sunder shots to cripple mobility/transports asap. Sicaran and Scorpius are nice. Void shield your artillery. A few multi melta attack bikes to tarpit msu or pot shots at armor. Assault marines in rhinos with double melta or plasma if your playing maelstrom, they are very point efficient even though they lack obsec.

For assault msu DC works nice, try to hide them mid field or protect your fire support vs alpha. Hammernators with a sanguinary priest is also a fine anchor unit, but it does lack mobility.

Get dozer blades on most of your transports, cram them into ruins as much as possible if your unlikely to do much dmg that turn, or pop smoke.

A few 3man bike squads with grav can also help, it has a small footprint so easier to hide.

An IC, like Dante can really do work on msu squads and with hit and run he won't be slowed down. Throw him in a shooty command squad (meltas) so they don't overkill units in assault.

Gladius is rough. I murdered 60 tac marines one game and still lost.

 Flugel Meister wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Blood Angels are one of the factions that I would say have the most formations in the game. Check out the Blood of Kittens website and you'll see a list of all formations available to you.

But we don't have any formations that grant us 'free' things. unlike Gladius and its 10 free Razorbacks.

See the Archangels Sanguine Wing. 400 points of free gear. Also, it's not only fun to run but fairly effective, especially when paired with supporting elements.