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Post by: leivve
As the title says, does power armor have any weakness that, if you figured out, you could use to "reliably" (for lack of a better word) kill a space marine? Someone told me their eye lenses are a major weakness, but I don't know if that's just speculation or actual canon.
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Post by: dusara217
Eye lenses are armourglass (what they make spaceship windows with), so nothing short of a Tau Pulse Round to the face will penetrate that.
Joints are inherently weaker than the rest of the armour, so a knife or lasbolt to the joints will generally penetrate.
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Post by: Bobthehero
The windows are also much thicker, so I dont doubt you can penetrate the eyelense
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Post by: KingmanHighborn
Neck and groin areas are 'relatively' vulnerable. Back of the knees, wrist, elbow joints are less so.
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Post by: TheManWithNoPlan
As Kingman said, all the joints are vulnerable as part of them aren't covered in ceramite.
I'd also have to say that the eye lenses are thin and relatively weak as in some books that I've read they have broken before the rest of the helmet has.
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Post by: Psienesis
The eye-lenses are, however, exceptionally small targets. Other than weapons designed for high armor-penetration capabilities (plasma, hellguns, lascannons, etc.) or something that is exceptionally-corrosive, power armor doesn't have much in the way of exploitable weaknesses.
As far as the joints go, that's been a problem with plate armors since the beginning, and the design of armor over the centuries has sought to mitigate that as much as possible. You can even see that in the various designs of power armor in the setting.
Of course, shooting a Space Marine in the elbow is not likely to cause immediate death, or much more than moderate inconvenience. They can fire a bolt-gun one handed, after all. There's also the fact that the weak part of the joint is generally not visible, being covered by the torso, the bolt-gun, or bent in such a way that the vambrace and the gauntlet cover it. The back of the elbow has a ceramite cap on it (possibly with a spike on it, for dropping Mega Atomic Elbows on fools), since the arm can only bend so far anyway.
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Post by: dusara217
 Bobthehero wrote:The windows are also much thicker, so I dont doubt you can penetrate the eyelense
Obviously you can penetrate the eyelense, the point was that they aren't as easy to penetrate as, say, an elbow. You give me an example of a lasbolt penetrating an eyelense, and I'll hop on board. Otherwise...
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Post by: Giantwalkingchair
I haven't come across much in books about the ye lenses being a weakness. More often than not, irs usually the gorget that is being targeted, granted it is a joint but a marine is more like to die from having their throat ripped out or blown open that they are an elbow or knee.
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
back in fourth edition I read that the 3+ armor save represented isn't a direct measure of the armor's durability, but also how effective it is at blocking shots. When you roll a 1 or a 2, it actually represents the shot hitting a "soft" area of the armor, like the joints and, like someone mentioned above, the eye. terminator Armor, likewise, has far more plates covering it and less "soft" areas.
Also the development of the newest type of armor (forgot which MK it was), the one with the huge collar, is actually because of the flaw with the neck. Since the helmet doesn't actually have an armored portion connecting it to the armor, shots aimed at the chest sometimes bounced upward into the marine's helmet, which is obviously a serious, if not fatal, injury. The new armor has the collar to prevent such ricochets.
Another one throughout a few of the iterations of the armor was the power cables at the front of the armor. Some older marks didn't have efficient cooling systems so instead just ran the cables on the outside and let the air cool it. This also means that they can be shot out. While not fatal, this does render the armor's power functions inert, so the marine would probably have to exert more effort to move and remove his helmet to see.
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Post by: dusara217
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:back in fourth edition I read that the 3+ armor save represented isn't a direct measure of the armor's durability, but also how effective it is at blocking shots. When you roll a 1 or a 2, it actually represents the shot hitting a "soft" area of the armor, like the joints and, like someone mentioned above, the eye. terminator Armor, likewise, has far more plates covering it and less "soft" areas.
Also the development of the newest type of armor (forgot which MK it was), the one with the huge collar, is actually because of the flaw with the neck. Since the helmet doesn't actually have an armored portion connecting it to the armor, shots aimed at the chest sometimes bounced upward into the marine's helmet, which is obviously a serious, if not fatal, injury. The new armor has the collar to prevent such ricochets.
Another one throughout a few of the iterations of the armor was the power cables at the front of the armor. Some older marks didn't have efficient cooling systems so instead just ran the cables on the outside and let the air cool it. This also means that they can be shot out. While not fatal, this does render the armor's power functions inert, so the marine would probably have to exert more effort to move and remove his helmet to see.
I wonder if that could cause the POwer Armour to overheat and kill the wearer...
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Possibly, I remember when GW had Black Gobbo doing modelling articles, one of them was "When Space Marine Armor failed", which I think included melty melties. Another one was if the "soft" parts got punctured, the marine's suit suffered decompression and the air rushed out, suffocating him.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
A while ago in White Dwarf there was a short blurb from an Ork Kommando's point of view (I think he was a kommando anyway) about an assault on a Marine unit that had just deployed from a rhino.
He charged in, firing his slugga to stagger the target a bit, then used his choppa to target 'the weak points - knees, elbows, neck, armpits - and cut each Marine down to size one joint at a time until he could make a killing blow.
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Post by: Wyzilla
 dusara217 wrote:Eye lenses are armourglass (what they make spaceship windows with), so nothing short of a Tau Pulse Round to the face will penetrate that.
Joints are inherently weaker than the rest of the armour, so a knife or lasbolt to the joints will generally penetrate.
The joints are made out of cybernetic steel muscle fibres. The only thing penetrating those are monomolecular combat knives.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Somehow I doubt a knife wielded by a human would penetrate less than lasgun, no matter how many scifi terms you add, and monomolecular stuff would require a ridiculous amount of ukeep for something that would need to be fixed after every uses.
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Post by: Spetulhu
The weakest part is the marine. Just dump a high explosive artillery round on him and he'll be turned into jelly even if the armor survives relatively intact.
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Bobthehero wrote:Somehow I doubt a knife wielded by a human would penetrate less than lasgun, no matter how many scifi terms you add, and monomolecular stuff would require a ridiculous amount of ukeep for something that would need to be fixed after every uses.
Depends on whether you're slashing or stabbing, since the two motions require different types of strength. The point of a tiny edge is so that the force you put into it is magnified to the point of contact, so stabbing someone with a monomolecular edge might be more effective than trying to cut through them (since the point of contact is much smaller). Whether or not stabbing them would work is an entirely different matter.
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Post by: godking
leivve wrote:As the title says, does power armor have any weakness that, if you figured out, you could use to "reliably" (for lack of a better word) kill a space marine? Someone told me their eye lenses are a major weakness, but I don't know if that's just speculation or actual canon.
Powersource.
If the powersource of power armour is destroyed you are essentially dealing with an enhanced human lugging +1 ton of armour around.
Still dangerous but greatly reduced in effectiveness.
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Post by: Ratius
Its possible PA would be susceptible to forms of EMP attack. Whilst not represented on the tabletop via haywire grenades, in terms of fluff its possible haywire or other "interference" weapons could damage or shut down the actual suit itself.
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Post by: Deadshot
dusara217 wrote: MechaEmperor7000 wrote:back in fourth edition I read that the 3+ armor save represented isn't a direct measure of the armor's durability, but also how effective it is at blocking shots. When you roll a 1 or a 2, it actually represents the shot hitting a "soft" area of the armor, like the joints and, like someone mentioned above, the eye. terminator Armor, likewise, has far more plates covering it and less "soft" areas.
Also the development of the newest type of armor (forgot which MK it was), the one with the huge collar, is actually because of the flaw with the neck. Since the helmet doesn't actually have an armored portion connecting it to the armor, shots aimed at the chest sometimes bounced upward into the marine's helmet, which is obviously a serious, if not fatal, injury. The new armor has the collar to prevent such ricochets.
Another one throughout a few of the iterations of the armor was the power cables at the front of the armor. Some older marks didn't have efficient cooling systems so instead just ran the cables on the outside and let the air cool it. This also means that they can be shot out. While not fatal, this does render the armor's power functions inert, so the marine would probably have to exert more effort to move and remove his helmet to see.
I wonder if that could cause the POwer Armour to overheat and kill the wearer...
Mk V armour has an issue like this. Mk V runs additional ablative plates ontop of the ceramite to make it better at standing up to bolters of traitors (because in the HH bolters are like small artillery shells apparently), and the extra weight of the plasteel means the suit can't cope, resulting in either overencumberance or unbearable heat as the suit can't power both the coolant systems and the weight bearer system at the same time.
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Post by: dusara217
 Ratius wrote:Its possible PA would be susceptible to forms of EMP attack. Whilst not represented on the tabletop via haywire grenades, in terms of fluff its possible haywire or other "interference" weapons could damage or shut down the actual suit itself.
EMP resistance was something they covered in the second or third iteration of Power Armour. In several books, you have Space Marines being "close" to Nukes going off, and not having any issue with their armour.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Much as I hate acknowledging their existence, the Orks shoot something to disable PA in Helsreach
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Post by: koooaei
The weakest part of power armor is helmets. They always tend to forget puting them on.
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Post by: TheWanderer
Power Armour has the same fundamental weakness of all body armour, anywhere there is a connection or joint is inherently weaker as it needs to be more flexible.
underarm, elbow, behind the knee. I would have also said neck but looking at the way it seems to be recessed I am thinking its better protected.
The powered nature of the armour would leave me thinking the power pack would be a weakness but that is so obvious that you would assume that the design would incorporate significant protection to counter it.
I think the "reality" of PA would be that its pretty damn tough. There is not really going to be any harm taken from a lot of what we currently see as conventional weapons.
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Post by: Mr Nobody
Does weight count as a weakness? It might not be a hazardous one, but it certainly limits mobility.
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Post by: wufai
I head power armour is weak against lascannons.
and terminator armour is weak against multiple lasgun shots
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Post by: dusara217
 Mr Nobody wrote:Does weight count as a weakness? It might not be a hazardous one, but it certainly limits mobility.
It doesn't really limit mobility, due to the way the Black Carapace and synthetic muscles interact with the metal. Unless, of course, you fall through the floor of hab unit, then it's just a pain in the ass.
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Post by: Ashiraya
The biggest drawback of wearing PA is if you might have BobtheHero writing you.
Then it won't end well.
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Post by: oldzoggy
Power cell "malfunction"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The non astartes grades has only a hew hours of battery life after that you are locked in. Rogue trader has rules about moving in those. You require extreme high Str checks in order to move.
I don't know any of the marine grade power cell fluff. Marines should have better power cells but they are quite easy to spot. My guess would be that it would not be that hard to generate a "malfunction"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Nobody wrote:Does weight count as a weakness? It might not be a hazardous one, but it certainly limits mobility.
Jup this might be a huge weakness i have never seen it mentioned in the fluff but I imagine that lots of surfaces can't support the weight of a marine. Especially since their favourite battlefield seems to be ruined Gothic cities :_P
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Post by: Bobthehero
 Ashiraya wrote:The biggest drawback of wearing PA is if you might have BobtheHero writing you.
Then it won't end well.
.
''The Space Marine exploded in thousand of tiny bits as the guardsman unstoppable punch tore through its armor and being like they were made of paper''
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Post by: Furyou Miko
 oldzoggy wrote:Power cell "malfunction"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The non astartes grades has only a hew hours of battery life after that you are locked in. Rogue trader has rules about moving in those. You require extreme high Str checks in order to move.
I don't know any of the marine grade power cell fluff. Marines should have better power cells but they are quite easy to spot. My guess would be that it would not be that hard to generate a "malfunction"
:_P
Astartes power armour has a fusion generator in the backpack, because they're special like that.
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Post by: Wyzilla
 Furyou Miko wrote: oldzoggy wrote:Power cell "malfunction"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The non astartes grades has only a hew hours of battery life after that you are locked in. Rogue trader has rules about moving in those. You require extreme high Str checks in order to move.
I don't know any of the marine grade power cell fluff. Marines should have better power cells but they are quite easy to spot. My guess would be that it would not be that hard to generate a "malfunction"
:_P
Astartes power armour has a fusion generator in the backpack, because they're special like that.
Everything Astartes use is fusion powered. EVERYTHING.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Fusion powered plasma gun, fusion powered bolter, fusion powered rhino, fusion powered landspeeder, fusion powered scout, fusion powered knife, fusion powered ration packs, fusion powered servitors, fusion powered serfs
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Post by: Wyzilla
Bobthehero wrote:Fusion powered plasma gun, fusion powered bolter, fusion powered rhino, fusion powered landspeeder, fusion powered scout, fusion powered knife, fusion powered ration packs, fusion powered servitors, fusion powered serfs
You forgot the fusion power ships, the fusion power meltaguns, the fusion power centurion suits, the fusion power bikes, and the fusion powered fusion power.
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Post by: locarno24
But yes, the power pack is probably the most vulnerable part.
Which is not the same as 'vulnerable'.
Other than that, joints, eye lenses....the usual.
To be honest, the most important weakness of the astartes is not the marine, it's their supporting units. If you're trying to fight astartes in an infantry battle, you're going to lose. In naval combat, or a dogfight, or an armoured engagement, it's a lot easier because their abilities mean proportionately less.
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Post by: Martel732
Scatterlasers.
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Post by: epronovost
We all know, like many player, you are rightfully butthurt by Eldars and Tau, but one has to admit that a cannon should kill an infantry man pretty easily even if he is well armored. Even a Terminator armor doesn`t protect more than light tank hull so a canon should kill you pretty easily. Unfortunately, the Scatterlaser, much like the autocanon, the multilaser or the Starcanon are all well canons design to blast light vehicules. Ultimately, this is the greatest weakness of the power armor. Weapons made to destroy tanks and bunkers are easy to find around. Artillery will blow you up even with a power armor since it's made to blow up bunkers. In a gun fight though, only the joints of the armor are really vulnerable to damage and this is a hard target for anybody whose not a master sniper.
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Post by: oldzoggy
Forget them, their true weakness are orbital lance strikes
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Post by: Torus
Well considering that power armour is pretty damn heavy and the same material is used throughout wouldn't excess trauma to the head potentially cause the helmet to snap the marine’s neck, biological upgrades or not.
Taking this from the game theorist's channel on YouTube when they were discussing the weaknesses of master chiefs armour
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Post by: Hawky
PA's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
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Post by: dusara217
 Torus wrote:Well considering that power armour is pretty damn heavy and the same material is used throughout wouldn't excess trauma to the head potentially cause the helmet to snap the marine’s neck, biological upgrades or not.
Taking this from the game theorist's channel on YouTube when they were discussing the weaknesses of master chiefs armour
GW is immune to your facts and logic!
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Post by: Bla_Ze
Torus wrote:Well considering that power armour is pretty damn heavy and the same material is used throughout wouldn't excess trauma to the head potentially cause the helmet to snap the marine’s neck, biological upgrades or not.
Taking this from the game theorist's channel on YouTube when they were discussing the weaknesses of master chiefs armour
The helmet is connected into a collar ring. So it not supported by the head or neck.
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Post by: Torus
 Bla_Ze wrote:
The helmet is connected into a collar ring. So it not supported by the head or neck.
If it was connected to a collar ring wouldn’t that limit movement of the head if not make it impossible for the marine to look up or down?
More than happy to be proven wrong since it potential flaw really annoys me
However, even if we discount the helmet we also have the numerous bullet traps with the most infamous being in the Mark 7 armour which would direct shells and shrapnel from the chest to the throat and respirator of the marine.
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Post by: jhe90
 Wyzilla wrote: Furyou Miko wrote: oldzoggy wrote:Power cell "malfunction"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The non astartes grades has only a hew hours of battery life after that you are locked in. Rogue trader has rules about moving in those. You require extreme high Str checks in order to move.
I don't know any of the marine grade power cell fluff. Marines should have better power cells but they are quite easy to spot. My guess would be that it would not be that hard to generate a "malfunction"
:_P
Astartes power armour has a fusion generator in the backpack, because they're special like that.
Everything Astartes use is fusion powered. EVERYTHING.
even if solar fails. it has back up supplies and solar cells etc to recharge.
not ideal but it can fuction wihout main power
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Post by: Furyou Miko
 jhe90 wrote:
even if solar fails. it has back up supplies and solar cells etc to recharge.
not ideal but it can fuction wihout main power
Uh, how do you get from fusion to solar?!
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Post by: the ancient
Curious.
Explain how lasguns wouldnt bounce off a reflective eye cam/lens.
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Post by: Ashiraya
They could reflect, of course. Also, Lasguns have no penetration. They superheat the surface of what they hit. It's possible that it won't do much at all, and otherwise they will scorch the eye lense, possibly preventing the Marine from seeing through it (and forcing him to rely on his autosenses, which still have full vision) but even then that is not really impactful.
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Post by: cadak
The old Chaos Space Marines Codex from 4th edition had a cool little story about a traitor and a loyalist in close combat that showed a weak spot:
"Adrastus launched himself at the imperial, bearing both of them to the ground. The loyalist gripped Adrastus' pistol in his right hand, forcing it away from his face. Adrastus reversed his grip on his powersword and plunged it down. The glowing blade sheared through the abdominal armour of his foe, and bit into the ground beneath them. Spitting words of hate, Adrastus pulled the sword clear of the struggling Marine and pushed the tip of the powered blade into the vulnerable spot between the chest plastron and shoulder pad of his enemy - just as he had done countless times before. The blade slid effortlessly through the loyalist's fused ribcage, penetrating both hearts.
That's how you gut an imperial dog, thought Adrastus proudly"
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Post by: epronovost
@Ashiraya
Range and power setting on the lasgun could affect that. A lasgun a maximum power setting (normaly a lasgun fires at 30% charge to reduce ammo lost and prevent reliability issue on the lasgun) and point blank range can crack a Space Marine helmet and the head inside it, killing the Space Marines instentaniously and that's without aiming the lens. At long range with standard charge, the lasbolt would probably break and blackent the lens and probably burn the eye of the Space Marine, but not much more. The Space Marine would still be largely operationnal thanks to their resilience to pain and combat drugs.
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Post by: the ancient
@Ashiraya
Possibly, but ceramic shouldnt heat, and i prefer the marines are plugged into their armour, they dont have a really have a hud. just what their brain is seeing. Mini mechandrites worming their way through to the brain stem every time they put a helmet on.
@Digganob
All that says is a power sword chops stuff up. Like it should. Or poke them in the under arm. Not a very good tactic for most.
Terror, You have to overload a lipo in real life to get any sort off explosion, and despite what the papers say about vapours. Its usually people that over charge the batteries, short them out, but they dont instantly go whoomp.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
It does specifically identify the under-arm joint as a weak point though.
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Post by: kronk
If the backpack fails (loses power), the marine can't stand up (per a scene in Helsreach by ADB).
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Post by: carldooley
In the Commissar Cain books he instructs his troops to target the joints with their shooting to disable chaos marines.
I agree with some of the previous posters - EMP Grenades. While it is possible to move in unpowered Power Armor, it is difficult and tiring to do so. Even if it isn't immediately lethal, it is treated that way on the table top for game reasons. Remember, kill shots in the game are better thought as 'disabling wounds' instead, with Instant Death being a better approximation of a killing blow.
I am reminded of the Sontarans from Doctor Who. 'The Sontaran Strategem' from Doctor Who, 'The Sontarans are the finest soldiers in the galaxy, dedicated to a life of warfare. A clone race, grown in batches of millions, with only one weakness: the probic vent in the back of their neck,' which is how they are fed. A good weakness as the Doctor says as it forces them to face their enemies.
The Marine's power pack is another critical weakness, mitigated by their refusal to turn away from their enemies.
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Post by: dusara217
 carldooley wrote:In the Commissar Cain books he instructs his troops to target the joints with their shooting to disable chaos marines.
I agree with some of the previous posters - EMP Grenades. While it is possible to move in unpowered Power Armor, it is difficult and tiring to do so. Even if it isn't immediately lethal, it is treated that way on the table top for game reasons. Remember, kill shots in the game are better thought as 'disabling wounds' instead, with Instant Death being a better approximation of a killing blow.
I am reminded of the Sontarans from Doctor Who. 'The Sontaran Strategem' from Doctor Who, 'The Sontarans are the finest soldiers in the galaxy, dedicated to a life of warfare. A clone race, grown in batches of millions, with only one weakness: the probic vent in the back of their neck,' which is how they are fed. A good weakness as the Doctor says as it forces them to face their enemies.
The Marine's power pack is another critical weakness, mitigated by their refusal to turn away from their enemies.
I thought power armour was immune to EMP?
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Post by: Wyzilla
Torus wrote:Well considering that power armour is pretty damn heavy and the same material is used throughout wouldn't excess trauma to the head potentially cause the helmet to snap the marine’s neck, biological upgrades or not.
Taking this from the game theorist's channel on YouTube when they were discussing the weaknesses of master chiefs armour
That video was mindnumbingly stupid and absolutely nothing from it should be taken seriously. Not only did it have a painful lack of understanding of armor, it also completely ignored all Halo lore and took game mechanics seriously.
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Post by: Melissia
It's expensive, weighty, difficult to maintain, and has a lot of complex parts.
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Post by: dracpanzer
AP3 or better weapons. Take a look around, things are everywhere.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Bobthehero wrote:The windows are also much thicker, so I dont doubt you can penetrate the eyelense
It's actually written canon that a group of sniper drones took out a squad of termies by shooting their eye-lenses.
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Post by: Nelson Mechanized
Transonic weapons seem to be prime for dealing with marine armor variants. Not sure if any body armor can stop them considering how they work.
"A low hum reverberated in Vasos' (Ironhound) guts as more Rustalkers closed in. His teeth itched as their strangely blurred blades clanged from his terminator armour. Vasos backhanded one of the creatures as it clambered up the shoulder of his suit, but another took its place, the hum of its sword rising to a high whine. Vasos was about to blast it clear when the keening blade punched clean through his armour's chest plate and punctured both of his hearts. ..."
~Codex Adeptus Mechaniucs Skitarii
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Post by: the ancient
 Melissia wrote:It's expensive, weighty, difficult to maintain, and has a lot of complex parts.
Sigh.
Im gonna be a horrible sexist man whore and say it. Damn sororitas... A man can only carry so much weight.
Double sigh.
Yes I are drinking
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Post by: Furyou Miko
It's less about how much weight the person in the armour can carry - the armour itself takes care of that - and more about how much weight their transport vehicles, especially fliers, can carry.
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Post by: Captain Joystick
leivve wrote:does power armor have any weakness that, if you figured out, you could use to "reliably" (for lack of a better word) kill a space marine?
You really do need a better word though. Armour or not, the space marine is an inhuman super-soldier with exceptional training, tactical acumen, and decades or centuries of experience. Your weapon is also very important, against a Tau heavy railgun the weak point of power armour is 'anywhere on the body' against a lasgun significantly less so.
In the Blood and Fire novella a sniper is described doing devastating damage to the Celestial Lions, specifically hitting them through the eye lenses. (It is officially credited to an 'ork sniper' but the clear indication is it's a vindicare assassin)
It also makes clear the soft joints are vulnerable, relative to the rest of the armour at least. Dismemberment at the elbow and knee are noted.
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Post by: TedNugent
You've gotta stab one of these through the eyesockets or the armpits.
Or maybe one of these through the armpits.
....
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Post by: carldooley
actually, historically you are better off using blunt weapons against plate. like sledgehammers.
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Post by: Gargantuan
carldooley wrote:
actually, historically you are better off using blunt weapons against plate. like sledgehammers.
Blunt weapons, like the pollaxe in his post?
A sledgehammer is a pretty horrible weapon. It's too heavy and easy to dodge or parry.
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Post by: Glitcha
The power supply on the space marines back is kind of critical. If it becomes damaged the power armor will shut down. Even tho space marines have unnatural strength for humans, the space marine would have to exert himself to move around in his power armor to the point it would effect his combat effectiveness. The enough times in the fluff books where this has happened, the space marine has removed his power armor so he could be more effective on the battle field.
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Post by: Desubot
Its only real weakness is D6s.
even if you managed to poke a hole in there armor in CC they are designed to take that kinda damage and heal or stabilized quickly.
not that the game actually lends it self to it.
realistically the weakest point would be the eyes. or gibbing the bastard with an anti tank missile.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Incidentally, eye "lenses" are a recent invention of the black library authors.
The "eyes" on a Space Marine's helmet were every bit the same material and opaqueness as the rest of the helmet. Power armor has autosenses, which all the new authors seem to forget, and why their shoulders are never in the way.
The autosense system made the entire suit of armor a sensor and the full inside of their helmet was basically a viewscreen of their surroundings.
Shooting through the eye of a marine was no easier than shooting through most of the rest of the armor, and harder than some parts, eg joints, as others have already pointed out.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Or rather, auto sense are the new things, I've seen eyelenses on every single iteration of PA
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Post by: EnTyme
 Gargantuan wrote: carldooley wrote:
actually, historically you are better off using blunt weapons against plate. like sledgehammers.
Blunt weapons, like the pollaxe in his post?
A sledgehammer is a pretty horrible weapon. It's too heavy and easy to dodge or parry.
You do know that there is a reason the fantasy side of this series is called "Warhammer", right? They were a thing. And they were insanely effective if you had a soldier strong enough to actually wield one. There was no parrying those things.
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Post by: Gargantuan
 EnTyme wrote: Gargantuan wrote: carldooley wrote:
actually, historically you are better off using blunt weapons against plate. like sledgehammers.
Blunt weapons, like the pollaxe in his post?
A sledgehammer is a pretty horrible weapon. It's too heavy and easy to dodge or parry.
You do know that there is a reason the fantasy side of this series is called "Warhammer", right? They were a thing. And they were insanely effective if you had a soldier strong enough to actually wield one. There was no parrying those things.
Yeah, you have to a huge dude to use a warhammer.  They weigh around 1 kg and are maybe 50-60 cm long, Most anti armour weapons are either short and relatively light like warhammers and maces or two handed pole weapons.
But this is incredibly off topic.
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Post by: EnTyme
Gargantuan wrote: EnTyme wrote: Gargantuan wrote: carldooley wrote:
actually, historically you are better off using blunt weapons against plate. like sledgehammers.
Blunt weapons, like the pollaxe in his post?
A sledgehammer is a pretty horrible weapon. It's too heavy and easy to dodge or parry.
You do know that there is a reason the fantasy side of this series is called "Warhammer", right? They were a thing. And they were insanely effective if you had a soldier strong enough to actually wield one. There was no parrying those things.
Yeah, you have to a huge dude to use a warhammer. They weigh around 1 kg and are maybe 50-60 cm long, Most anti armour weapons are either short and relatively light like warhammers and maces or two handed pole weapons.
But this is incredibly off topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer
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Post by: Deadshot
 DarknessEternal wrote:Incidentally, eye "lenses" are a recent invention of the black library authors.
The "eyes" on a Space Marine's helmet were every bit the same material and opaqueness as the rest of the helmet. Power armor has autosenses, which all the new authors seem to forget, and why their shoulders are never in the way.
The autosense system made the entire suit of armor a sensor and the full inside of their helmet was basically a viewscreen of their surroundings.
Shooting through the eye of a marine was no easier than shooting through most of the rest of the armor, and harder than some parts, eg joints, as others have already pointed out.
I contest this. Lexicanum, I believe, describes the earlier iterations of power armour (Mk II and Mk III) as having fixed helmets and so having that 360 viewscreen to rotate the head within the helmet. Mk IV and onwards had rotating helmets with HUDs.
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Post by: Wyzilla
 Deadshot wrote: DarknessEternal wrote:Incidentally, eye "lenses" are a recent invention of the black library authors.
The "eyes" on a Space Marine's helmet were every bit the same material and opaqueness as the rest of the helmet. Power armor has autosenses, which all the new authors seem to forget, and why their shoulders are never in the way.
The autosense system made the entire suit of armor a sensor and the full inside of their helmet was basically a viewscreen of their surroundings.
Shooting through the eye of a marine was no easier than shooting through most of the rest of the armor, and harder than some parts, eg joints, as others have already pointed out.
I contest this. Lexicanum, I believe, describes the earlier iterations of power armour (Mk II and Mk III) as having fixed helmets and so having that 360 viewscreen to rotate the head within the helmet. Mk IV and onwards had rotating helmets with HUDs.
That's oudated old fluff. I haven't seen anything mentioning that the helmets couldn't turn in the Horus Heresy series, and we see MK II and MKIII being posed with their helmets turned sideways.
But you are right about them being lenses. There was even a comic back from the 80's or 90's that showed a space marine's eyes visible behind the lenses on his MK VII armor.
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Post by: Spetulhu
Eye lenses or not, trying to get a hit on those when the Space Marine is still moving and killing your guys is a bit naff. My suggestion that the marine himself is the weak point is still out there. Just lead him into a standard 10 kg anti-tank mine - the PA might come down unharmed but the marine is jelly.
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Post by: dusara217
Spetulhu wrote:Eye lenses or not, trying to get a hit on those when the Space Marine is still moving and killing your guys is a bit naff. My suggestion that the marine himself is the weak point is still out there. Just lead him into a standard 10 kg anti-tank mine - the PA might come down unharmed but the marine is jelly.
yeah, except for the genetically denser skin and metal bones, that's totally right.
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Post by: farmersboy
DarknessEternal wrote:Incidentally, eye "lenses" are a recent invention of the black library authors.
The "eyes" on a Space Marine's helmet were every bit the same material and opaqueness as the rest of the helmet. Power armor has autosenses, which all the new authors seem to forget, and why their shoulders are never in the way.
The autosense system made the entire suit of armor a sensor and the full inside of their helmet was basically a viewscreen of their surroundings.
Shooting through the eye of a marine was no easier than shooting through most of the rest of the armor, and harder than some parts, eg joints, as others have already pointed out.
Thank you! I'm not the only one who remembers this. As soon as a Space Marine puts his helmet on he stops seeing with his eyes and hearing with his ears, as everything is fed directly into his brain via the autosenses. Also, what happened to the auto-reactive shoulder pads, the ones that adjusted their position depending on where the Space Marine's face was pointing?
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Post by: IacobusIgnavus
The eye lenses of a space marine are weak points in the armor, In the Canon, the Celestial Lions were being picked of from LasSniper fire going through there lenses. If you like to know more, google Celestial Lions and read there Lore.
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Post by: Psienesis
IacobusIgnavus wrote:The eye lenses of a space marine are weak points in the armor, In the Canon, the Celestial Lions were being picked of from LasSniper fire going through there lenses. If you like to know more, google Celestial Lions and read there Lore.
This is 40K. There is absolutely no such thing as "canon". It's just "fluff". Which is contradictory, sometimes intentionally misleading, written by a large group of people under absolutely no requirement to agree with one another, and free to be discarded, or accepted, by each individual reader as they see fit.
Maybe it was a Vindicare. Maybe it was an Ork. Maybe it was an Eldar. It could be any number of possible things.
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Post by: TheCloverLord
I feel like the best way to fatally wound a Space Marine would be to shoot him in the lower abdomen, above the crotch. The power armour isn't the thickest there, it isn't protected by Black Carapace + ribcage, and there are a lot of important arteries and organs there
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Post by: Wyzilla
 TheCloverLord wrote:I feel like the best way to fatally wound a Space Marine would be to shoot him in the lower abdomen, above the crotch. The power armour isn't the thickest there, it isn't protected by Black Carapace + ribcage, and there are a lot of important arteries and organs there
They can grow instant scar tissue and can survive total bisection. The way to kill a space marine is to aim for the head or neck, like a classic zombie.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Uh, last nigt Space Marines had rapidly clotting blood and toughened skin, now they can apparently scar instantly. What will they come up with tomorrow, is a mystery, my guess is invulnerability or something
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Post by: Wyzilla
Bobthehero wrote:Uh, last nigt Space Marines had rapidly clotting blood and toughened skin, now they can apparently scar instantly. What will they come up with tomorrow, is a mystery, my guess is invulnerability or something
The Larraman's Organ has been responsible for instant scar tissue for years from the Codex.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
Wyzilla wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Uh, last nigt Space Marines had rapidly clotting blood and toughened skin, now they can apparently scar instantly. What will they come up with tomorrow, is a mystery, my guess is invulnerability or something
The Larraman's Organ has been responsible for instant scar tissue for years from the Codex.
^^^^
I can agree to this.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Bobthehero wrote:Uh, last nigt Space Marines had rapidly clotting blood and toughened skin, now they can apparently scar instantly. What will they come up with tomorrow, is a mystery, my guess is invulnerability or something
Wolverine? Deadpool? Or maybe they will pull a Dragon Ball: http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/strip-35.html . Wyzilla wrote: Torus wrote:Well considering that power armour is pretty damn heavy and the same material is used throughout wouldn't excess trauma to the head potentially cause the helmet to snap the marine’s neck, biological upgrades or not. Taking this from the game theorist's channel on YouTube when they were discussing the weaknesses of master chiefs armour
That video was mindnumbingly stupid and absolutely nothing from it should be taken seriously. Not only did it have a painful lack of understanding of armor, it also completely ignored all Halo lore and took game mechanics seriously.
I remember Game Theory's video where he spewed bs over bs, with the crown jewel being him using the fact Kali was a goddess associated with sex to push his argument… (hint: it's just false). So I am not surprised. This guy is giving a perfectly valid field of science a bad name. Nash would not be proud. Anyway, we all know what is the weakness of power armor: it does not prevent people from talking to the space marine inside. And we all know the urban legend: if you say “Join us” with a creepy whispering voice to a space marine 3 times, he joins Chaos. Thanksfull you can take the SoB upgrade to fix this  .
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Wyzilla wrote: TheCloverLord wrote:I feel like the best way to fatally wound a Space Marine would be to shoot him in the lower abdomen, above the crotch. The power armour isn't the thickest there, it isn't protected by Black Carapace + ribcage, and there are a lot of important arteries and organs there
They can grow instant scar tissue and can survive total bisection. The way to kill a space marine is to aim for the head or neck, like a classic zombie.
Depends. The old tau codex had space marines who had giant holes in their chest via plasma. They were still alive, but they would not survive, and the apocathary who the story was told from was just gathering something from them before they died. So blowing up the chest or abdomen seems to work alight. And if they do get blown in half, even if they don't die, they will be rendered useless for the battle.
So plasma, plasma is the way to kill marines.
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Post by: EngulfedObject
 Co'tor Shas wrote: Wyzilla wrote:They can grow instant scar tissue and can survive total bisection. The way to kill a space marine is to aim for the head or neck, like a classic zombie.
Depends. The old tau codex had space marines who had giant holes in their chest via plasma. They were still alive, but they would not survive, and the apocathary who the story was told from was just gathering something from them before they died. So blowing up the chest or abdomen seems to work alight. And if they do get blown in half, even if they don't die, they will be rendered useless for the battle.
So plasma, plasma is the way to kill marines.
Well obviously he doesn't mean that's the only way to kill a space marine, it's just a more reliable way. Astartes have secondary hearts so if you manage to blow a hole through the power armour and take them both out, chances are the marine will die.
But they are incredibly tough, like Orks are, so they can survive even the most horrific injuries. There's an IG quote in the 3ed codex (I think it was 3ed) about decapitating and then burning "dead" Orks to make sure they stayed dead. Marines are the same - if they can be recovered, they can probably be saved and put back into action in some form or another (as a dreadnought, if need be).
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Found the story in question (or more accurately, stole it from the B& CS board because I;m too lazy to type it out myself).
The Hammers of Dorn had always followed the Codex Astartes to the letter, but in this case, conventional planetfall tactics had turned out to be ill-advised. This was a massacre, nothing less. Apothecary Antaloch edged over to a fallen battle-brother. The dying warrior had a hole in his chest that Antaloch could fit his fist through. Releasing the armour’s cuirass, he plunged his reductor deep into his comrade’s neck. A thick churning sound grumbled under the roar of battle as Antaloch extracted the progenoid glands and stowed them with the dozens of others he had flasked thus far. The Apothecary was intoning the last rites when there was a crack of impact; a xenos warsuit thumped down in front of Antaloch and pressed the muzzle of its energy rifle to his helmet. The Apothecary froze. The alien assassin filled his vision, statuesque and lethal. The figure would have dwarfed a Terminator. ‘It is unclear,’ stated the giant in stilted Imperial Gothic, its hidden speakers uncannily like a real voice. ‘You must know this one does not live, ministratormedic- equivalent.’ ‘Aye,’ growled Antaloch, ‘and yet his due must be given.’ ‘Despite the likelihood of sustaining lethal damage yourself.’ ‘Just so,’ said the Apothecary. He fought the urge to cover the precious geneseed flasks. A moment of stillness passed.
‘Your stance is defensive, yet not indicative of self-preservation,’ stated the warsuit. Before he could reply, bolter shells detonated between the giant’s jump engines. Its shoulder-mounted blaster whirred around, obliterating the Space Marine running in behind it. Its energy rifle never moved from Antaloch’s helm. ‘A theory. During the death ritual, you recover a substance and/or information code that your warrior caste deems vital.’ Antaloch stared up at the towering figure, but said nothing. ‘Interesting,’ said the xenos giant. ‘Proceed then, by all means.’ Raising its rifle in a brief salute, the battlesuit boosted up into the skies on twin tongues of flame. Blinking in disbelief, the Apothecary voxed, ‘Captain Rumann? When this is over, we need to talk.’
Give and interesting look at the tau mindset as well, and one of the reasons it's stated that the SMs who have fought the tau came to respect them. Not like them, but respect them.
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Post by: Bobthehero
 EngulfedObject wrote:. There's an IG quote in the 3ed codex (I think it was 3ed) about decapitating and then burning "dead" Orks to make sure they stayed dead.
The IG burned the Orks to get rid of the spores
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Post by: maxgravity
A couple of things that spring out at me:
No "shiny" eye lens won't reflect laser botls or not enough of them to matter. Two issue here. First is unless this battle is taking place inside a clean room there's going to be enough dust and other gunk to affect the reflectivity of the lenes. Second, in real life reflectors for high powered lasers are polished to an incrdibel degree but still have to have a strong active cooling system incorporated into them because at the microscopic level they aren't perfectly smooth and that allows the laser to begin heating them.
Explosives inflicting concussive damage to internal organs on marines is possible but is going to be mitigated to a larg extent by the black carapace and other bio-augmentations. Same almost certainly goes for brain injuries as the marine has cushioning to limit how hard the brain can smack against the skull which is a major hard limit for protective technologies in real life.
The soft areas of the armor are going to to almost certainly have a laminate design that incorporates a ballistic cloth layer (think Kevlar) to stop slashing attacks and typical bullet calibers and a high strength ultra fine metal mesh to protect against piercing attacks.
Snaping the neck is going to be incredibly difficult because one, it's a frickin' marine and 2. The suit neck almost certainly incorporates a combination of sero-limiters which affect how quickly the helmet can move on any axis (fast enough to allow freedom of movement but too slow for neck snaping) backed up by physical stops that prevent the helmet from being moved past a point that could injure the neck.
All in all these guys are pretty well protected but fortunately, there's enough super science and xeno tech among the other sides that it even outs.
Where these guys are truly terrifying is when they are suppressing a human population without access to heavy weaponry or large quantities of high explosives. Realistically, these guys are going to be immune to everything that your typical mob can throw at them.
-Maxgraity.
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Post by: Ir0njack
On the note of the gorget of MK7 being a death sentence via shrapnel, most shrapnel is delivered via artillery. This means the shell must impact then detonate, from that point the fragments fan out and up so the gorget would actually protect against that. The only actual weapon I've seen would be out of the norm of that would be the Tau's air frag launcher. This is of course only talking about the gorget. The armored skirts around the marines boots would be horrible to have if he were to step on a mine.
Then again the only marines I could see trudging through bombardments and minefields would be deathguard and to a lesser extent iron hands and iron warriors.
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Post by: SirSertile
godking wrote:leivve wrote:As the title says, does power armor have any weakness that, if you figured out, you could use to "reliably" (for lack of a better word) kill a space marine? Someone told me their eye lenses are a major weakness, but I don't know if that's just speculation or actual canon.
Powersource.
If the powersource of power armour is destroyed you are essentially dealing with an enhanced human lugging +1 ton of armour around.
Still dangerous but greatly reduced in effectiveness.
In one of the Alpha Legion books, it describes a legionnaire detaching a marine's power pack and beating him over the head with it. You are right about the power source.
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Post by: Wyzilla
maxgravity wrote:A couple of things that spring out at me:
No "shiny" eye lens won't reflect laser botls or not enough of them to matter. Two issue here. First is unless this battle is taking place inside a clean room there's going to be enough dust and other gunk to affect the reflectivity of the lenes. Second, in real life reflectors for high powered lasers are polished to an incrdibel degree but still have to have a strong active cooling system incorporated into them because at the microscopic level they aren't perfectly smooth and that allows the laser to begin heating them.
Explosives inflicting concussive damage to internal organs on marines is possible but is going to be mitigated to a larg extent by the black carapace and other bio-augmentations. Same almost certainly goes for brain injuries as the marine has cushioning to limit how hard the brain can smack against the skull which is a major hard limit for protective technologies in real life.
The soft areas of the armor are going to to almost certainly have a laminate design that incorporates a ballistic cloth layer (think Kevlar) to stop slashing attacks and typical bullet calibers and a high strength ultra fine metal mesh to protect against piercing attacks.
Snaping the neck is going to be incredibly difficult because one, it's a frickin' marine and 2. The suit neck almost certainly incorporates a combination of sero-limiters which affect how quickly the helmet can move on any axis (fast enough to allow freedom of movement but too slow for neck snaping) backed up by physical stops that prevent the helmet from being moved past a point that could injure the neck.
All in all these guys are pretty well protected but fortunately, there's enough super science and xeno tech among the other sides that it even outs.
Where these guys are truly terrifying is when they are suppressing a human population without access to heavy weaponry or large quantities of high explosives. Realistically, these guys are going to be immune to everything that your typical mob can throw at them.
-Maxgraity.
There is no true "soft" armor. The ribbing lacking ceramite/plasteel composite plates is still made of metal muscle fibers. Stabbing a blade there shouldn't do anything unless it's one of the magical monomolecular knives.
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Post by: EngulfedObject
Bobthehero wrote: EngulfedObject wrote:. There's an IG quote in the 3ed codex (I think it was 3ed) about decapitating and then burning "dead" Orks to make sure they stayed dead.
The IG burned the Orks to get rid of the spores
No, that particular quote/passage also referred to destroying the Ork's organs to prevent it from recovering, not to the spores - though of course the spores are a problem.
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Post by: Tuppy
Hello!
Didn’t want to start new topic. So decide to ask question here.
Me and my friends have a dispute if space marine has any movement limitations in his power armor.
Ill explain, I’ve watched new Eternal Crusade game, where SM characters rolling on the floor and move like they are made of 1 plastic piece. It looks bad, but I heard an opinion that it’s the way it should be.
Well, often in books it’s said that PA is like “second skin that moves with all the speed and precision of the Battle-Brother's own body” and SM move freely.
At the same time when PA is described authors note mechanical noises of suit’s actuators and fibre bundles.
I checked how SMarines move in media.
In Space marine, Ultramarines and EC titles SM moves like regular person.
And DoW 1-2 Space Marines move slightly mechanical.
So, what do you think, when marine runs fast or jumps high, does he move like a regular quick human guy or momentum and work of mechanisms in his suit should have the influence on his animations?
Links to canon would be appreciated.
Thanks and sorry for my English.
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Post by: Desubot
Imho it they will be able to run jump around and all that fun stuff but should be very hard to stop with all that mass and momentum.
with enough force they should be able to change angles and stuff but i expect a lot of skidding.
edit: or they more commonly move at a brisk pace like in gears of war.
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Post by: Psienesis
The Black Carapace of a Space Marine turns his armor into the oft-referenced second skin. In power armor, a Marine can move as quickly and gracefully as he would naked. He is not hampered or hindered by his armor, through the interface of the Black Carapace, in any way, unlike pretty much anyone else (non-Astartes) wearing power armor.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Tuppy wrote:Hello!
Didn’t want to start new topic. So decide to ask question here.
Me and my friends have a dispute if space marine has any movement limitations in his power armor.
Ill explain, I’ve watched new Eternal Crusade game, where SM characters rolling on the floor and move like they are made of 1 plastic piece. It looks bad, but I heard an opinion that it’s the way it should be.
Well, often in books it’s said that PA is like “second skin that moves with all the speed and precision of the Battle-Brother's own body” and SM move freely.
At the same time when PA is described authors note mechanical noises of suit’s actuators and fibre bundles.
I checked how SMarines move in media.
In Space marine, Ultramarines and EC titles SM moves like regular person.
And DoW 1-2 Space Marines move slightly mechanical.
So, what do you think, when marine runs fast or jumps high, does he move like a regular quick human guy or momentum and work of mechanisms in his suit should have the influence on his animations?
Links to canon would be appreciated.
Thanks and sorry for my English.
Power armor has zero limitations for movement. The only thing that is slightly contested is jump height, as I've seen it go both ways (power armor increases your strength, therefore you jump farther, versus power armor is heavy as feth, you ain't going anywhere).
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Post by: Mr Nobody
I know it's not power armour, but it does help demonstrate the mobility of medieval armor.
You can definitely roll, tumble and move with surprising versatility, but you won't be doing ballet. As for power armour, the weight is not an issue anymore, but that machinery definitely adds bulk compared to simple plate.
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Post by: ProwlerPC
I like simple Ork logic for solving these problems. Crude but effective. Tie an explosive rocket to the end of a stick like a hammer the hit the marine anywhere with it.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Mr Nobody wrote:I know it's not power armour, but it does help demonstrate the mobility of medieval armor.
You can definitely roll, tumble and move with surprising versatility, but you won't be doing ballet. As for power armour, the weight is not an issue anymore, but that machinery definitely adds bulk compared to simple plate.
Bulkiness would seem to be the main problem with power armour. It is very thick.
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Post by: Desubot
Co'tor Shas wrote: Mr Nobody wrote:I know it's not power armour, but it does help demonstrate the mobility of medieval armor.
You can definitely roll, tumble and move with surprising versatility, but you won't be doing ballet. As for power armour, the weight is not an issue anymore, but that machinery definitely adds bulk compared to simple plate.
Bulkiness would seem to be the main problem with power armour. It is very thick.
IIRC they are all articulated and adjust using metal muscles and servos and other sci fi sounding things.
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Post by: EnTyme
Wyzilla wrote:
Power armor has zero limitations for movement. The only thing that is slightly contested is jump height, as I've seen it go both ways (power armor increases your strength, therefore you jump farther, versus power armor is heavy as feth, you ain't going anywhere).
If this is the case, why is there a need for the scouts to wear smaller armor? Just for the lower profile? I've read countless sources on power armor, and the fluff does support your statement, but I always felt like this was a case of "ZOMG! tHE SPEHSS MEHREENS IZ TOTES THE GREETEST EVAR!" It makes zero sense from a physics and mechanics standpoint. I'm not saying that the Space Marines would be slow and clunky in the armor, just less maneuverable. I think the Space Marine game (Captain Titus ftw!) showed a more realistic representation of the way a SM would move. Captain Titus wasn't sluggish, you could definitely tell that his armor had some weight to it.
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Post by: Desubot
EnTyme wrote: Wyzilla wrote: Power armor has zero limitations for movement. The only thing that is slightly contested is jump height, as I've seen it go both ways (power armor increases your strength, therefore you jump farther, versus power armor is heavy as feth, you ain't going anywhere).
If this is the case, why is there a need for the scouts to wear smaller armor? Just for the lower profile? I've read countless sources on power armor, and the fluff does support your statement, but I always felt like this was a case of "ZOMG! tHE SPEHSS MEHREENS IZ TOTES THE GREETEST EVAR!" It makes zero sense from a physics and mechanics standpoint. I'm not saying that the Space Marines would be slow and clunky in the armor, just less maneuverable. I think the Space Marine game (Captain Titus ftw!) showed a more realistic representation of the way a SM would move. Captain Titus wasn't sluggish, you could definitely tell that his armor had some weight to it.
power armor is expensive and hard to make why give it to the grunts (newby scouts)? Its why most scouts go into devestator squads to keep them further back once they get promoted.
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Post by: Wyzilla
EnTyme wrote: Wyzilla wrote:
Power armor has zero limitations for movement. The only thing that is slightly contested is jump height, as I've seen it go both ways (power armor increases your strength, therefore you jump farther, versus power armor is heavy as feth, you ain't going anywhere).
If this is the case, why is there a need for the scouts to wear smaller armor? Just for the lower profile? I've read countless sources on power armor, and the fluff does support your statement, but I always felt like this was a case of "ZOMG! tHE SPEHSS MEHREENS IZ TOTES THE GREETEST EVAR!" It makes zero sense from a physics and mechanics standpoint. I'm not saying that the Space Marines would be slow and clunky in the armor, just less maneuverable. I think the Space Marine game (Captain Titus ftw!) showed a more realistic representation of the way a SM would move. Captain Titus wasn't sluggish, you could definitely tell that his armor had some weight to it.
The job of Scouts is infiltration and sniping. You need training to be stealthy in power armor, such as the Raven Guard's shadow walking technique. Although there honestly isn't a real purpose to them, as the Legions had power armor equivalents that also wore cameoline cloaks.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
EnTyme wrote: Wyzilla wrote:
Power armor has zero limitations for movement. The only thing that is slightly contested is jump height, as I've seen it go both ways (power armor increases your strength, therefore you jump farther, versus power armor is heavy as feth, you ain't going anywhere).
If this is the case, why is there a need for the scouts to wear smaller armor? Just for the lower profile? I've read countless sources on power armor, and the fluff does support your statement, but I always felt like this was a case of "ZOMG! tHE SPEHSS MEHREENS IZ TOTES THE GREETEST EVAR!" It makes zero sense from a physics and mechanics standpoint. I'm not saying that the Space Marines would be slow and clunky in the armor, just less maneuverable. I think the Space Marine game (Captain Titus ftw!) showed a more realistic representation of the way a SM would move. Captain Titus wasn't sluggish, you could definitely tell that his armor had some weight to it.
Scouts wear Carapace rather than Power Armour for one reason, and one reason only: They do not have the Black Carapace yet. While a Marine can do ballet or whatever in his power armour, a Scout would not be able to make the same maneuvers, because he'd be relying on a pressure-sensitive suit like the ones worn by Inquisitors and Sororitas, which don't provide the same response speed or tactile sensation that a Carapace-equipped suit of power armour does (the response speed difference is likely milliseconds, but it's enough to count).
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Did someone mention quicksand? Quicksand are definitely a place where power armor is a detriment!
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Post by: Bobthehero
As much as I am bothered with the seemingly weakness-less of power armor, I can't agree with you on that one, sure you'll sink, but armor is sealed and stuff, so you won't suffocate and you wont be crushed by the weight of the sand. At worst you'll stay stuck there and starve (but apparently PA recycles your gak, so whatever), but otherwise, there's a good chance you'll survive.
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Post by: Desubot
Bobthehero wrote:As much as I am bothered with the seemingly weakness-less of power armor, I can't agree with you on that one, sure you'll sink, but armor is sealed and stuff, so you won't suffocate and you wont be crushed by the weight of the sand. At worst you'll stay stuck there and starve (but apparently PA recycles your gak, so whatever), but otherwise, there's a good chance you'll survive.
Or they go into a very long coma.
I can imagine a thunder hawk trying to crane game a bunch of lost marines with a magnet out of quicksand or the sea
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Post by: Spetulhu
Bobthehero wrote:As much as I am bothered with the seemingly weakness-less of power armor, I can't agree with you on that one, sure you'll sink, but armor is sealed and stuff, so you won't suffocate and you wont be crushed by the weight of the sand. At worst you'll stay stuck there and starve (but apparently PA recycles your gak, so whatever), but otherwise, there's a good chance you'll survive.
Which is one of many reasons why a marine would be removed as a casualty on the tabletop (losing your last wound doesn't necessarily mean you're dead, just out of the fight for now). Losing power would hinder movement so the marine likely falls back in order to preserve a Chapter asset (himself) and allowing his squad to continue at top speed. Same if he loses some special equipment like a bike or jump pack. Getting stuck under a tank would suck even for a marine - I'd imagine one "killed" in a vehicle explosion might just be knocked out or stuck under the rolled-over hull.
It would actually make for a pretty good short story. The victorious force slowly going through the battlefield, collecting their own and trying to avoid getting ambushed by the last few living Space Marines that for some reason didn't manage to fall back when their side was broken.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Bobthehero wrote:As much as I am bothered with the seemingly weakness-less of power armor, I can't agree with you on that one, sure you'll sink, but armor is sealed and stuff, so you won't suffocate and you wont be crushed by the weight of the sand. At worst you'll stay stuck there and starve (but apparently PA recycles your gak, so whatever), but otherwise, there's a good chance you'll survive.
That's actually precisely why it's an horrible fate. What, that does not seem bad to you? Living for many hundreds of years (marine longevity) trapped into a quicksand, with literally nothing to see, nothing to hear, and perpetually eating and drinking your own feces and urine? Seems like hell to me. Seems worse than dreadnought entombment.
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Post by: dusara217
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Bobthehero wrote:As much as I am bothered with the seemingly weakness-less of power armor, I can't agree with you on that one, sure you'll sink, but armor is sealed and stuff, so you won't suffocate and you wont be crushed by the weight of the sand. At worst you'll stay stuck there and starve (but apparently PA recycles your gak, so whatever), but otherwise, there's a good chance you'll survive.
That's actually precisely why it's an horrible fate. What, that does not seem bad to you? Living for many hundreds of years (marine longevity) trapped into a quicksand, with literally nothing to see, nothing to hear, and perpetually eating and drinking your own feces and urine? Seems like hell to me. Seems worse than dreadnought entombment.
It's more likely that the Marines have some kind of IV that puts any remaining nutrients and calories back into the Marine's body.
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Post by: Deadshot
dusara217 wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Bobthehero wrote:As much as I am bothered with the seemingly weakness-less of power armor, I can't agree with you on that one, sure you'll sink, but armor is sealed and stuff, so you won't suffocate and you wont be crushed by the weight of the sand. At worst you'll stay stuck there and starve (but apparently PA recycles your gak, so whatever), but otherwise, there's a good chance you'll survive.
That's actually precisely why it's an horrible fate. What, that does not seem bad to you? Living for many hundreds of years (marine longevity) trapped into a quicksand, with literally nothing to see, nothing to hear, and perpetually eating and drinking your own feces and urine? Seems like hell to me. Seems worse than dreadnought entombment.
It's more likely that the Marines have some kind of IV that puts any remaining nutrients and calories back into the Marine's body.
They can self-induce a coma indefinitely. Plus they still have vox, they could easily just radio for help.
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Post by: Otto Weston
If I was able to pick the time and place to shoot someone with power armour, I would always attack from above.
Shots from above are more likely to punch into the weakspots between the pauldrons/chestpiece or chestpiece/helmet (neck area) and if the person looks up at you you have a chance to go through their eyepieces/under the chin too.
In addition, from that angle any penetrating shot is more likely to hit internal organs.
Shooting from above is even more deadly because you can put more shots on the head without the Pauldrons getting in the way (which is really the point of them, for Space Marines to use their shoulders to protect their head from horizontal shots).
It's not perfect but I believe that's the best way to deal with Power Armour and therefore is its greatest weakness.
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