Hey, after a long weekend at the Caledonian the top spot was taken by the ETC English captain sporting a rather savage Eldar/Tau list with no less than 7 RIPTIDES (and a mandatory wraithknight).


My question is how does one best go about dismantling riptides ( or rather Burst-tides), which army or unit combination does the job either in terms of tying them down or simply removing them?

What army do you play?

Leadership are one of their weaknesses.

Grav, same as every other monstrous creature. At least you're not assured of getting wiped out during interceptor if he's taking the HBC instead of the IA.

You could just join the team england 40k facebook page and ask us there.

As for hard counters, close combat hurts it, as does grav and deathstars (since its useless in combat, wolf stars and the equivilent with invis rolls through it).

Josh is a great player but he did get quite lucky with his matchups. Bare in mind cally is only 5 games, so don't assume its the list which is unbeatable, its part luck on matchups and the players ability.

Its the same thing people usually use before the 7th codex dropped. 3 solo riptides, just now they are a bit more dangerous if not dealt with. Its still around half of the damn army in points (675pts with stims/ewo/IA)

Grav weapons, ID, or things involving Leadership or Init work great against them. Melee too but that can sometimes be difficult to do.
Even though its a bit painful with the formation perks and 3 of them in general, but if you cannot reliably damage them then dont go for them. The 1-3 Lascannons or other such AP2 weapons you may have wont do much, and you're better off splatting crisis suits or taking out vehicles. Strip their support the riptides become less of a threat, and they cant do much alone.

I mentioned the ignoring part to my friends that always struggle and when they finally started doing that until they can reliably cause multiple wounds a turn they started doing a lot better against me. Riptide is a tank first, gun platform second. Unless you can pierce the tank reliably, youre letting it do its job of being a tank.

@Vineheart

I was thinking more about riptide wing as a stand alone formation.

For 550 points 3 riptides just isnt that durable. I mean even with re-rolls, nova charging is risky, then theres over-heating added on to that. Without marker lights they just dont have the accuracy to be good.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Its the same thing people usually use before the 7th codex dropped. 3 solo riptides, just now they are a bit more dangerous if not dealt with. Its still around half of the damn army in points (675pts with stims/ewo/IA)

Grav weapons, ID, or things involving Leadership or Init work great against them. Melee too but that can sometimes be difficult to do.
Even though its a bit painful with the formation perks and 3 of them in general, but if you cannot reliably damage them then dont go for them. The 1-3 Lascannons or other such AP2 weapons you may have wont do much, and you're better off splatting crisis suits or taking out vehicles. Strip their support the riptides become less of a threat, and they cant do much alone.

I mentioned the ignoring part to my friends that always struggle and when they finally started doing that until they can reliably cause multiple wounds a turn they started doing a lot better against me. Riptide is a tank first, gun platform second. Unless you can pierce the tank reliably, youre letting it do its job of being a tank.

But that's way too much durability for 675. They can do plenty alone, because they never die.

I love to face Riptides. My current army is Dark Eldar (part codex and part Haemonculus Coven) with Harlequin Allies. Hitting Riptides with a Psychic Shriek on a -4 to -8Ld modifier is always fun.

There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

They still get FNP vs the shriek, but sure. Sounds good. I've considered getting a Warden to get with my BA just to go stomp Riptides.

A nice trick is to multi assault Riptide + a weak unit. Since they are not fearless you can nab an unexpected sweep that way. Not always gonna have spots like that, but it is possible.

They should be fearless, as nothing can hurt them, lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Aside from D, yes there isnt any easy counter to Riptides. There isnt suppose to be an "easy" counter to everything, but since its not a GMC it can be ID and it doesnt have Stomp so melee is very effective against it.

As Notredameguy10 said those are ways to wreck riptides. Directly anyway. As others have mentioned, riptides on their own are hinging on a lot of dice luck to be effective (3+ w/ reroll for Nova, 1/6th change Gets Hot completely nullifies their shooting, base BS3 so they can miss often). Stripping their support is almost always the better option.

Usually when my support for my riptides die, they either continue to own because i just never miss anything or they continue the rest of the game (3-4 turns) and do nothing except spew out 4 SMS shots, since those rarely miss. Ive also had games where they nuked themselves down to 2 wounds which put them in easy-to-kill range.

Theres answers for them. Just because there isnt anything CHEAPER than the Riptide to kill it doesnt mean its op. Not like its sporting D weapons or anything on top of its durability. If theyre OP at all its the safety the IA offers, not the Riptide's defenses. It shouldnt be AP2 by default when its essentially the same damn thing as the Ion Cannon with Nova profile attached...so why is it stronger without nova? It should be a 36" S7 AP3 3 Shots normal, or S8 AP3 Large Blast Gets Hot overcharge, or S9 AP2 Large Blast Gets Hot with Novacharge. Riptide has an unexplained in terms of points extra wound because its expected to take 1-2 damage per game from Novas, while the IA completely negates that risk since it doesnt need it anymore so now its not only deadly with AP2 weapons but has more bulk.

They can be swept in assault correct?

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MC are not fearless.

They have fear, but not fearless

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Other than the Ghostkeel, but yes.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

I said efficient - not "able to harm". the only thing I didn't actually mention in so many words was poison because it's actually not - you wanna dump 30 posion shots into a riptide and to average 1 wound? Waste of your time. It one shots your squad next turn. grav does a good job but a riptide really isn't that expensive and get get a 3++ and are usually cheaper than the grav squad thats has a chance to bring it down in 1 turn. This leaves Force and D as the really only reliable options because #1 they ignore the FNP #2 only need 1-2 wounds to get the job done even on gargantuan MC.

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Um how are they immune to "every poison weapon in the game"?

Cant catch a riptide? They move 6 inches and have a random jetpack move

Really? I can think of plenty of rapid fire and other AP2 weapons that can tear through riptides.

Lol at someone saying grav cents are too expensive for what they do. Riptides are all about tanking damage, not actually dishing it out. So the same number of points of other models SHOULDN'T be able to kill a riptide in one turn

Martel732 wrote:

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Riptides can spontaneously combust from Nova Reactors. Trust me, I've seen it happen far too many times.

My Praetorians and Wraiths never have a problem catching Riptides in CC.

Also, Riptides can be ignored. In a normal game (not with 7 Riptides), kill their markerlight supports. In scenarios such as this, tie them up in CC. There's only so far they can before they get to the edge of the board, and without markerlights, they're not as scary.

Riptides don't dish damage? Spoken like a true tau player. The riptide is one of the most unfair things in the but its aokay because it's in your list, huh?

The nova reactor thing is such a joke. Oh look! I took a single wound after melting your entire list! It's such a limitation!

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Thank you for the clarification - I play mostly marines so I'm pretty lacking and most every MC I have encountered was fearless so I really thought it was universal lol.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides don't dish damage? Spoken like a true tau player. The riptide is one of the most unfair things in the but its aokay because it's in your list, huh?

lol its a 200+ point model that has to pass a gets hot roll to shoot 1 single LB Str 8 AP2 (for an IA)
And then 4 Str 5 Ap5 shots from a secondary weapon.
At BS3

Yeah I would say that is not very high damage output for the cost

Better than anything in my list.

As far as tanking, a 200 pt model shouldn't be able to tank an entire list. Which it can.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Riptides can spontaneously combust from Nova Reactors. Trust me, I've seen it happen far too many times.

My Praetorians and Wraiths never have a problem catching Riptides in CC.

Also, Riptides can be ignored. In a normal game (not with 7 Riptides), kill their markerlight supports. In scenarios such as this, tie them up in CC. There's only so far they can before they get to the edge of the board, and without markerlights, they're not as scary.

army of wraiths or wolf star will work too (wolves really need the first turn to get spells up) (wraiths would really like to go first too)

most poison weapons tend not to have have great ap or have a low rate of fire. Between the riptides armor, invul, fnp and amount of wounds poison isn't a great option.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
most poison weapons tend not to have have great ap or have a low rate of fire. Between the riptides armor, invul, fnp and amount of wounds poison isn't a great option.

You'd figure that with as much shooting as tau players get to do, they wouldn't need this spelled out.

Martel732 wrote:
Better than anything in my list.

You're running a MEQ assault army.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Um how are they immune to "every poison weapon in the game"?

Cant catch a riptide? They move 6 inches and have a random jetpack move

Really? I can think of plenty of rapid fire and other AP2 weapons that can tear through riptides.

Lol at someone saying grav cents are too expensive for what they do. Riptides are all about tanking damage, not actually dishing it out. So the same number of points of other models SHOULDN'T be able to kill a riptide in one turn

WoW...Large blast AP2 weapon doesn't dish it out? LOL. It's like a vidicator with 72 inch range - I think it's damage is okay.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Better than anything in my list.

You're running a MEQ assault army.

With access to most vanilla units. You'd think there would a single unit somewhere that can keep up with an ia. Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Um how are they immune to "every poison weapon in the game"?

Cant catch a riptide? They move 6 inches and have a random jetpack move

Really? I can think of plenty of rapid fire and other AP2 weapons that can tear through riptides.

Lol at someone saying grav cents are too expensive for what they do. Riptides are all about tanking damage, not actually dishing it out. So the same number of points of other models SHOULDN'T be able to kill a riptide in one turn

WoW...Large blast AP2 weapon doesn't dish it out? LOL. It's like a vidicator with 72 inch range - I think it's damage is okay.

An immortal vindicator. That beats most marine units in hth because of mc usr. Feth mcs.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides don't dish damage? Spoken like a true tau player. The riptide is one of the most unfair things in the but its aokay because it's in your list, huh?

The nova reactor thing is such a joke. Oh look! I took a single wound after melting your entire list! It's such a limitation!

Every game I've played, the 1-3 Riptides I was facing dealt usually 1-2 of their own wounds to themselves. How is that a joke?

Also, first time I fought Tau was against Triptide with an Aegis line, using a very casual list of 5th edition Necrons. I lost, but mainly because of where the objectives were placed and because of overall score at the end. The Riptides themselves did not do most of the damage to my army. You are highly over-reacting.

Yo bro, you over-reacting, while I'm Nova-reacting.

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Better than anything in my list.

You're running a MEQ assault army.

With access to most vanilla units. You'd think there would a single unit somewhere that can keep up with an ia. Nope.

Mephistopheles? From a storm raven? Maybe?

 Xenomancers wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Um how are they immune to "every poison weapon in the game"?

Cant catch a riptide? They move 6 inches and have a random jetpack move

Really? I can think of plenty of rapid fire and other AP2 weapons that can tear through riptides.

Lol at someone saying grav cents are too expensive for what they do. Riptides are all about tanking damage, not actually dishing it out. So the same number of points of other models SHOULDN'T be able to kill a riptide in one turn

WoW...Large blast AP2 weapon doesn't dish it out? LOL. It's like a vidicator with 72 inch range - I think it's damage is okay.

Without Marker light support it ISNT that great. For a 225 point model, you first have to pass a gets hot or do nothing that turn and take a wound. Then you have BS3. The armies that have done best against me/beat me are the ones who ignored my 2 riptides completely

notredameguy10 wrote:
The armies that have done best against me/beat me are the ones who ignored my 2 riptides completely

Literally quoted for truth.

They have no choice because they can't be killed. Super fair, let me telll you.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides don't dish damage? Spoken like a true tau player. The riptide is one of the most unfair things in the but its aokay because it's in your list, huh?

The nova reactor thing is such a joke. Oh look! I took a single wound after melting your entire list! It's such a limitation!

Every game I've played, the 1-3 Riptides I was facing dealt usually 1-2 of their own wounds to themselves. How is that a joke?

Also, first time I fought Tau was against Triptide with an Aegis line, using a very casual list of 5th edition Necrons. I lost, but mainly because of where the objectives were placed and because of overall score at the end. The Riptides themselves did not do most of the damage to my army. You are highly over-reacting.

Yo bro, you over-reacting, while I'm Nova-reacting.

The average 1 in a 5 turn game. You don't need to nova every turn ether - sometimes 3 str 7 shots is fine. Sometimes theres nothing left to shoot at. In game terms - if you aren't getting into CC with D or force weapons - riptides are almost always a waste of firepower to shoot at. They are great at 1 shotting entire quality squads too. Oh they have a fussion blaster too - how nice.

Martel732 wrote:
They have no choice because they can't be killed. Super fair, let me telll you.

As fair as Wraiths. As fair as Smashfether with a command squad on bikes. As fair as Invisible <insert title here>-star.

 krodarklorr wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
The armies that have done best against me/beat me are the ones who ignored my 2 riptides completely

Literally quoted for truth.

Thats what you have to do to beat them - accept the fact that you are going to have 2 or more str 8 ap2 large blast on your best squad every turn and try to out damage them - somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They have no choice because they can't be killed. Super fair, let me telll you.

As fair as Wraiths. As fair as Smashfether with a command squad on bikes. As fair as Invisible <insert title here>-star.

Now lets see who is tar-pitting who.

The IA is a little bit nuts. If you use that, the nova reactor is never really a factor because with the IA, you don't need to use it, and can sit back and annihilate MEQ squads - well, provided that scatter doesn't screw you over.

(Tell you what: next time a player shows up with one of those, tell them you won't play them unless they accept a 650-point handicap, and beat them senseless with a tarnished brass herring if they don't agree. I'll provide the fish.)

its pretty damn easy to catch a riptide in melee.

They move 6 + 2D6 each turn and have a massive base. They run into other units or terrain and unless they rolled REALLY high they cant clear it, so they get caught by the biker/jumper units pretty swift. Unless i put things between my suits and said biker/jumper unit, they always get the assault because average dice i moved as far as you did before charge distances are factored in.
Often i roll ~8" on the 2d6 and can only use 4 of it or less because i cant clear the other unit thats in the way or i cant clear the impassible terrain. The massive base really hinders jetpack movements, and every time ive tried to use the 4d6 i roll 4 1s or something dumb like that lol

I never said riptides cant dish out damage, i said they arent able to RELIABLY dish out damage without marker support. 1/6 of the time they do jack squat even without Nova tests, and BS3 can still miss a large blast pretty bad. Happens to me all the damn time.

MCs are not immune to sweeping, which makes no sense to me (not even saying that because i hate sweeping advance in any form from any army against any army). You cause a singular wound to my riptide, my 3 attacks hitting your melee based unit on 5s all miss or you invul the one that went through, i now fail the init test with my init2 and you swept something 3x your size somehow. Happens with ghostkeels tool.

Riptides are not the only non-fearless MC. Ghostkeels, Riptides, Dreadknights, and non-synapse Tyranid MCs are not fearless. Dreadknights are ATSKNF, not fearless. Really all that means is they can be pinned though, since MCs cannot "voluntarily" goto ground but pinning isnt a voluntary action. Pissed off a couple GK players with that in the past lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Riptides are not the only non-fearless MC. Ghostkeels, Riptides, Dreadknights, and non-synapse Tyranid MCs are not fearless. Dreadknights are ATSKNF, not fearless. Really all that means is they can be pinned though, since MCs cannot "voluntarily" goto ground but pinning isnt a voluntary action. Pissed off a couple GK players with that in the past lol

I forgot about the Ghostkeel, as it's new. But ATSKNF is better than Fearless, and all non-synapse Tyranid MCs are Fearless, actually.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
its pretty damn easy to catch a riptide in melee.

They move 6 + 2D6 each turn and have a massive base. They run into other units or terrain and unless they rolled REALLY high they cant clear it, so they get caught by the biker/jumper units pretty swift. Unless i put things between my suits and said biker/jumper unit, they always get the assault because average dice i moved as far as you did before charge distances are factored in.
Often i roll ~8" on the 2d6 and can only use 4 of it or less because i cant clear the other unit thats in the way or i cant clear the impassible terrain. The massive base really hinders jetpack movements, and every time ive tried to use the 4d6 i roll 4 1s or something dumb like that lol

I never said riptides cant dish out damage, i said they arent able to RELIABLY dish out damage without marker support. 1/6 of the time they do jack squat even without Nova tests, and BS3 can still miss a large blast pretty bad. Happens to me all the damn time.

MCs are not immune to sweeping, which makes no sense to me (not even saying that because i hate sweeping advance in any form from any army against any army). You cause a singular wound to my riptide, my 3 attacks hitting your melee based unit on 5s all miss or you invul the one that went through, i now fail the init test with my init2 and you swept something 3x your size somehow. Happens with ghostkeels tool.

Riptides are not the only non-fearless MC. Ghostkeels, Riptides, Dreadknights, and non-synapse Tyranid MCs are not fearless. Dreadknights are ATSKNF, not fearless. Really all that means is they can be pinned though, since MCs cannot "voluntarily" goto ground but pinning isnt a voluntary action. Pissed off a couple GK players with that in the past lol

You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

An ASM squad could catch a Riptide, in theory.

Let's say they get there wholly intact, even after Overwatch.

They then attack:
Per attack, that's (2/3)(1/6)(1/6), or 2/108 attacks.

A 10-man ASM on the charge gets 3A per model, or 30 attacks.
That works out to 60/108 wounds, or just south of an EV of 0.6

(Note - Krak grenades wound 3x as often, but have 1/3 the attacks - so same number).

Now the Riptide hits back.
(1/3)(5/6)(1), or 5/18 wounds per attack. How many A does a Riptide have? If its even 2, it wins against a 10man ASM squad that gets the charge. Even if its only 1, it could still, on average, win against a 10-man ASM squad by charging it.

That's what pisses off Marine players. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty doesn't work when the shooty outchops you *without shooting*.

In a fun side note, BA actually have better numbers here than other Marines.

Contrast this with how a Hammerhead, Pred, or Falcon handles being assaulted...

Martel732 wrote:
You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

You should seriously consider playing with a list that can reserve your entire army as well as adding a fortification that can block LOS, if you play on planet bowling ball.

With a Damocles Rhino and Kaarlen you can bring in your reserves on a rerollable 2+, there has got to be a way for you to get a decent T2 alpha strike. Or at least evade a solid 1-2 turns of shooting.

No, that was for ASMs in general. Only BAs get FC, but they aren't the only ones to complain about Riptides.

BA ASM would do 4/108, or 1/27, wound/attack, which would be an EV of a little over 1. So if a full 10man ASM squad could get in with a Riptide, they are likely to win or tie combat (EV is still less that 1 more wound than the Riptide).

They aren't as bad off as other ASM, but that's still a tall order, and they go down to 0.6 wounds per 10 ASM on subsequent rounds (Krak does better than 2x CCW).

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

You should seriously consider playing with a list that can reserve your entire army as well as adding a fortification that can block LOS, if you play on planet bowling ball.

With a Damocles Rhino and Kaarlen you can bring in your reserves on a rerollable 2+, there has got to be a way for you to get a decent T2 alpha strike. Or at least evade a solid 1-2 turns of shooting.

Maybe. But they can cause catastrophic damage with only 2 or 3 turns of shooting. Reserving only delays the inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
An ASM squad could catch a Riptide, in theory.

Let's say they get there wholly intact, even after Overwatch.

They then attack:
Per attack, that's (2/3)(1/6)(1/6), or 2/108 attacks.

A 10-man ASM on the charge gets 3A per model, or 30 attacks.
That works out to 60/108 wounds, or just south of an EV of 0.6

(Note - Krak grenades wound 3x as often, but have 1/3 the attacks - so same number).

Now the Riptide hits back.
(1/3)(5/6)(1), or 5/18 wounds per attack. How many A does a Riptide have? If its even 2, it wins against a 10man ASM squad that gets the charge. Even if its only 1, it could still, on average, win against a 10-man ASM squad by charging it.

That's what pisses off Marine players. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty doesn't work when the shooty outchops you *without shooting*.

In a fun side note, BA actually have better numbers here than other Marines.

Contrast this with how a Hammerhead, Pred, or Falcon handles being assaulted...

And it's all because the Riptide is too durable for its cost.

Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

I stopped running mine with IAs specifically because faceroll wins aren't fun to me. When I run 'em with HBC, they do a lot of damage, but usually wind up dying. Eldar kill them stone-dead, as do Necrons usually, and even DE give them a pretty good thrashing up that close. Marines usually wind up tarpitting them or using grav, and Tyranids go straight for the tarpit. (And Tyranid MCs fare OK in melee, since they have S6 AP2 at better WS and I...)

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

You should seriously consider playing with a list that can reserve your entire army as well as adding a fortification that can block LOS, if you play on planet bowling ball.

With a Damocles Rhino and Kaarlen you can bring in your reserves on a rerollable 2+, there has got to be a way for you to get a decent T2 alpha strike. Or at least evade a solid 1-2 turns of shooting.

Maybe. But they can cause catastrophic damage with only 2 or 3 turns of shooting. Reserving only delays the inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
An ASM squad could catch a Riptide, in theory.

Let's say they get there wholly intact, even after Overwatch.

They then attack:
Per attack, that's (2/3)(1/6)(1/6), or 2/108 attacks.

A 10-man ASM on the charge gets 3A per model, or 30 attacks.
That works out to 60/108 wounds, or just south of an EV of 0.6

(Note - Krak grenades wound 3x as often, but have 1/3 the attacks - so same number).

Now the Riptide hits back.
(1/3)(5/6)(1), or 5/18 wounds per attack. How many A does a Riptide have? If its even 2, it wins against a 10man ASM squad that gets the charge. Even if its only 1, it could still, on average, win against a 10-man ASM squad by charging it.

That's what pisses off Marine players. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty doesn't work when the shooty outchops you *without shooting*.

In a fun side note, BA actually have better numbers here than other Marines.

Contrast this with how a Hammerhead, Pred, or Falcon handles being assaulted...

And it's all because the Riptide is too durable for its cost.

So are Necron Wraiths, so are Wraithknights, so are Centurions, so are just about any Daemon unit youll face (psy powers, grimoire). Yeah, Riptides are too durable for their PTs if you are approaching 7th ed 40k with a 5th ed mindset. Newsflash, it isn't 5th ed, it is 7th and in 7th Riptides just happen to be another good unit, hardly a game-breaking one.

People complaining about Riptides are a couple of years late, the day of Ovesa Stars dominating has long come to an end. There are plenty of counters to Riptides. Start with killing Markerlights and staying in terrain. Without markerlight support, Riptides are actually subpar shooters for their pts (run the numbers, Broadsides are FAR more effective for their pts, as are Sky-rays).

Hell, I played Riptide wing recently, unsupported by markers and allied into a Necron list. The Riptides essentially did nothing all game because without Markerlights their shooting was far too inaccurate.

@Lvalx
I've had the same experience. Riptides outside of a tau list is like a fish out of water. They're more like intercepting bullet sponges, rather than uber-death-dealing-mini-Ta'unars.


Even with the 3++ you get in enough shots/attacks and they go down hard.

 iddy00711 wrote:
@Lvalx
I've had the same experience. Riptides outside of a tau list is like a fish out of water. They're more like intercepting bullet sponges, rather than uber-death-dealing-mini-Ta'unars.


Even with the 3++ you get in enough shots/attacks and they go down hard.

Yeah, people are thinking of them using their 6th ed bias. Yes, when Tau first dropped, Riptides were too good (being able to attach IC to a squadron of them was a big culprit, as well as easily buffing them with Eldar farseers). Take away ML support and riptides can literally be ignored. I've played Riptide wing with my gladius strike force twice and in both games I didn't kill a single Riptide, yet won overwhelmingly. Kill the markerlights and profit, in fact, any time you face Tau go for the markerlights first and foremost.

7 Riptides? I mean wow.

Anyways, Hemlock Wraith fighters are fun to use. As mentioned earlier in the thread basically the Haemonculous covens and their cumulative LD de-buffs would help, coupled with the Dark Eldar debuffs. coupled with the Eldar Debuffs.

I am sure the SEVEN Riptides had anti-air in some measure so obviously we are assuming here that you survive it. And you may.

The Dark Eldar can push a -4 LD Armored Archon up in an Aethersail'd Raider. Then bring along the Eldar Warlocks for Horrify (-3). then bring in the Hemlocks (-2 per jet within 12") and finally use the Terrify Power, Shriek (which does not benefit from the Hemlocks) and shooting. You can knock 3 riptides off the board in one go. Assault the following round with Grotesquerie, win by one and send the rest off?

I don't know. Seems like it would work. Havent worked out the points but that would probably fit in 1850.

Would serve him right for bringing SEVEN Riptides though. Lol.

"so are Centurions"

Cents are fragile for their points. That's why the get invised constantly. Because otherwise the Eldar/Tau would just laugh them off the board.

7 riptides....?

that shouldnt even work. He cant put out enough firepower unless hes ungodly lucky with gets hot tests and BS3 crap to contest any objectives, and if he tries to bully off an objective LOL yeah that'll work... i wouldnt even bring that many in a 4k game just because i feel i'd be missing too much support for them unless i want to forgo any FW stuff (Riptide variants, ta'unar, hazards, etc) and no thanks. The moment he faces a list that either is just too durable for 7 riptide to kill (necrons) or has the answer for riptides (pretty much any eldar list or gravstars) he'd lose in a heartbeat.

Also, again, the riptide is not op because of its damn durability. Its suppose to be a frontline bulletsponge, the T6/5W/2+/5++ shows that. The problem is the IA enables it to abuse its durability at a distance and not suffer ANYTHING for being that far away from the battlefield. Like ive said dozens of times before, reduce the IA's AP w/o Nova to a 3+ and its range to mimic the HBC and the Riptide suddenly got a lot tamer. Both because its not sitting literally across the board anymore and it once again has nova risks like hits HBC brethren.
Reducing it to T5/4W/3+/6++ is yet another example of people just screaming "NERF WHAT ISNT MINE BECAUSE ITS GOOD" without thinking of the side-effects of what that nerf does. You dont nerfbat something thats overpowered into the ground, you tweak it so its still good but no longer the ultimatum pick. Its a damn tank per the fluff, only reason it has guns at all is because a tank needs to be threatening otherwise its ignored, problem is yet again the threat is too high and too safe to be on a tank.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. But they can cause catastrophic damage with only 2 or 3 turns of shooting. Reserving only delays the inevitable.

If they can't inflict catastrophic damage in 1 turn, that's 2 turns of action for you. So make it count.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
7 riptides....?

that shouldnt even work. He cant put out enough firepower unless hes ungodly lucky with gets hot tests and BS3 crap to contest any objectives, and if he tries to bully off an objective LOL yeah that'll work... i wouldnt even bring that many in a 4k game just because i feel i'd be missing too much support for them unless i want to forgo any FW stuff (Riptide variants, ta'unar, hazards, etc) and no thanks. The moment he faces a list that either is just too durable for 7 riptide to kill (necrons) or has the answer for riptides (pretty much any eldar list or gravstars) he'd lose in a heartbeat.

Also, again, the riptide is not op because of its damn durability. Its suppose to be a frontline bulletsponge, the T6/5W/2+/5++ shows that. The problem is the IA enables it to abuse its durability at a distance and not suffer ANYTHING for being that far away from the battlefield. Like ive said dozens of times before, reduce the IA's AP w/o Nova to a 3+ and its range to mimic the HBC and the Riptide suddenly got a lot tamer. Both because its not sitting literally across the board anymore and it once again has nova risks like hits HBC brethren.
Reducing it to T5/4W/3+/6++ is yet another example of people just screaming "NERF WHAT ISNT MINE BECAUSE ITS GOOD" without thinking of the side-effects of what that nerf does. You dont nerfbat something thats overpowered into the ground, you tweak it so its still good but no longer the ultimatum pick. Its a damn tank per the fluff, only reason it has guns at all is because a tank needs to be threatening otherwise its ignored, problem is yet again the threat is too high and too safe to be on a tank.

Nothing should be that tough for so few points. I would have to be able to completely ignore the thing the entire game for its durability to be fair.

you act like its the only thing in the game thats durable for "cheap" - news flash, it isnt. Wraiths consume my entire army's shooting for multiple turns before a 5man squad goes down, Space Wolves wolfriders are equally as durable, WK is damn near immortal, list goes on and on.

Yet the only thing that gets durability flak is the Riptide. Because its Tau, and the meta is hate on tau.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
you act like its the only thing in the game thats durable for "cheap" - news flash, it isnt. Wraiths consume my entire army's shooting for multiple turns before a 5man squad goes down, Space Wolves wolfriders are equally as durable, WK is damn near immortal, list goes on and on.

Yet the only thing that gets durability flak is the Riptide. Because its Tau, and the meta is hate on tau.

Probably because it was the first, and the only one that hides on the back of the board.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
you act like its the only thing in the game thats durable for "cheap" - news flash, it isnt. Wraiths consume my entire army's shooting for multiple turns before a 5man squad goes down, Space Wolves wolfriders are equally as durable, WK is damn near immortal, list goes on and on.

Yet the only thing that gets durability flak is the Riptide. Because its Tau, and the meta is hate on tau.

A) Trust me, those get PLENTY of hate. B) The problem with all that durability is that none of the other units you listed pack that much fire power at 48" (except probably the WK, but trust me, that gets all the hate it deserves).

Quit acting like Tau are victims and Space Marines/Necron/Eldar players get no hate.

The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

The fact your own codex is a writing failure means not that the things you don't like should get removed from the game.

And that "suggestion" IS removing from the game. It won't even be a viable pick any more, let alone a centerpiece. In fact, no army would be willing to take that unit.

The riptide, as I've proven by math over a dozen times by now, has pathetic firepower for the cost when it has no marker support, with units from tau, eldar, marines, necron, IG and even orks getting higher damage output even WITH the accelerator.

The only thing it needs is to take the accelerator down a peg so it still needs NOVA to function. Easiest path is to take away the non-NOVA blast option, and that alone makes it completely fair.
Without non-NOVA blasts, it has dual dependency on both working NOVA and marker support in order to do serius damage, making it far more viable to outright ignore it if it tries to just hide in the distance.

I'm sorry to be blunt but anyone that says the Riptide has terrifying firepower for its points is a numpty and doesn't actually know how to beat Tau. A standard Riptide build with Ion Accelerator is around 200 points and shoots 1 S8 AP2 Large Blast plus various shots from a secondary weapon. That Large Blast is BS3 and thus very inaccurate (on an average scatter roll it moves 4" off target) and lacks Ignores Cover so surviving it is actually not that difficult. The problem is when Markerlights are added to the fray so that it becomes super accurate and ignores cover, destroying a unit with no difficulty.

How do we fix this? Oh, is it to use the most common tactic any player should use against Tau? Why, yes. Yes it is. Kill the Markerlights and stop whining like five year olds.

Isnt the SMS the main selling point for riptides? That + they tank well. Broadsides have much better output per point, but they don't really anchor lists. The riptide wing can put out 36 SMS shots ignoring los/cover when they activate formation bonus?

Riptides without the formation are not that amazing, the formation seem a bit over the top, but no more than many other things.

Looking at SMS with the formation bonus:

- 36x SMS shots at BS3 averages 18 hits.
- 18x Rapier shots (being BS4/TL) they average 16 S5 hits.
- 1x Vulture with Strafing Run averages about 18 S5 hits.
- 36x Fire Warriors also average 18 S5 hits, but double their output within 15".

Price difference - Riptide Wing is 540pts, FW are 324pts, Vulture is 155pts, 3x Rapiers are 120pts.

Takeaways - Riptides are not a cost-effective source of S5 shooting. SMS rules are attractive, but Tau has ML for Ignore Cover which is far more flexible.

I'd say Riptide durability and the IA blast is the main draw. It's intimidating to DS against an S8 AP2 blast, and a lot of players hate Riptides and will overfocus on killing them.

Well for an Eldar flavour: I'd destroy the supporting Marketlight network with Swooping Hawk grenade packs (ignore cover, AP4 and happens before interceptor) or a farseer using perfect timing on scat packs. Then I'd move onto the riptides themselves. I'd either use psykic scream and charge it with a seer star or spam them to death with 36 strength 8, AP2 hornet pulse lasers or mass bladestorm

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

The fact your own codex is a writing failure means not that the things you don't like should get removed from the game.

And that "suggestion" IS removing from the game. It won't even be a viable pick any more, let alone a centerpiece. In fact, no army would be willing to take that unit.

The riptide, as I've proven by math over a dozen times by now, has pathetic firepower for the cost when it has no marker support, with units from tau, eldar, marines, necron, IG and even orks getting higher damage output even WITH the accelerator.

The only thing it needs is to take the accelerator down a peg so it still needs NOVA to function. Easiest path is to take away the non-NOVA blast option, and that alone makes it completely fair.
Without non-NOVA blasts, it has dual dependency on both working NOVA and marker support in order to do serius damage, making it far more viable to outright ignore it if it tries to just hide in the distance.

Yeah - that seems pretty fair. Take a away a wound too. Then it's still tougher than a NDK - with longer range and JSJ for about the same cost.

 Torus wrote:
Well for an Eldar flavour: I'd destroy the supporting Marketlight network with Swooping Hawk grenade packs (ignore cover, AP4 and happens before interceptor) or a farseer using perfect timing on scat packs. Then I'd move onto the riptides themselves. I'd either use psykic scream and charge it with a seer star or spam them to death with 36 strength 8, AP2 hornet pulse lasers or mass bladestorm

In defense of the other side of the argument, you're playing Eldar.

"spam them to death with 36 strength 8, AP2 hornet pulse lasers or mass bladestorm"

"ignore cover, AP4 and happens before interceptor"

"farseer using perfect timing on scat packs"

Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

Tell that to Aaron Aleong who won NOVA Open and Invitational and top 8'd at LVO. Azrael is good in any assault based squad that is large in size (IMO 15+) because the 4++ is huge. It means that vs grav or AP3 that is str 7 or lower all your Death Company will at worst get a 4++ followed by FNP. That isn't half bad and with the speed of DC itll help you survive the initial round of shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

The fact your own codex is a writing failure means not that the things you don't like should get removed from the game.

And that "suggestion" IS removing from the game. It won't even be a viable pick any more, let alone a centerpiece. In fact, no army would be willing to take that unit.

The riptide, as I've proven by math over a dozen times by now, has pathetic firepower for the cost when it has no marker support, with units from tau, eldar, marines, necron, IG and even orks getting higher damage output even WITH the accelerator.

The only thing it needs is to take the accelerator down a peg so it still needs NOVA to function. Easiest path is to take away the non-NOVA blast option, and that alone makes it completely fair.
Without non-NOVA blasts, it has dual dependency on both working NOVA and marker support in order to do serius damage, making it far more viable to outright ignore it if it tries to just hide in the distance.

My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Dreadknights aren't fearless either...

 krodarklorr wrote:

Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

But the essence of it is the same... ignores cover weaponry/ high ROF weapons on the markerlights and then attack the riptides with psychic powers, rending or AT, if you can do that in assault and have the means to get there or can augment your attacks to achieve the effect all the power to you.

In any case the methodology works doesn't it?

jade_angel wrote:
My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

30" is not close. Maybe if the IA had a range of 18" the BA would have a chance. DK want to ASSAULT, which means that they have to get to melta range even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
I'm sorry to be blunt but anyone that says the Riptide has terrifying firepower for its points is a numpty and doesn't actually know how to beat Tau. A standard Riptide build with Ion Accelerator is around 200 points and shoots 1 S8 AP2 Large Blast plus various shots from a secondary weapon. That Large Blast is BS3 and thus very inaccurate (on an average scatter roll it moves 4" off target) and lacks Ignores Cover so surviving it is actually not that difficult. The problem is when Markerlights are added to the fray so that it becomes super accurate and ignores cover, destroying a unit with no difficulty.

How do we fix this? Oh, is it to use the most common tactic any player should use against Tau? Why, yes. Yes it is. Kill the Markerlights and stop whining like five year olds.

Killing the markerlights would require one to have units left on the board to kill them with. I know all about killing markerlights. And yet, even without them, Riptides will hit directly 33% of the time and deny all armor saves under the blast.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Dreadknights aren't fearless either...

You're right. They have Better-than-Fearless.

I don't know. I have seen marines run off the table before.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Dreadknights aren't fearless either...

You're right. They have Better-than-Fearless.

To be fair - as a marine player for a LOOONG time - I can tell you that hurts you just about as often as it helps you. Marine squads can't do dick against anything tough in CC but they sure end up being great hiding places for enemy assualt units during MY shooting phase.

[quote=Xenomancers
To be fair - as a marine player for a LOOONG time - I can tell you that hurts you just about as often as it helps you. Marine squads can't do dick against anything tough in CC but they sure end up being great hiding places for enemy assualt units during MY shooting phase.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

30" is not close. Maybe if the IA had a range of 18" the BA would have a chance. DK want to ASSAULT, which means that they have to get to melta range even.

My proposed nerf here would have the non-nova profile would be AP4, just like the Ghostkeel's cyclic ion raker. The nova profile would still be AP2, but at the cost of self-inflicted damage 33% of the time plus Gets Hot (which isn't terribly dangerous, but does keep the weapon from firing).

 LValx wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

Tell that to Aaron Aleong who won NOVA Open and Invitational and top 8'd at LVO. Azrael is good in any assault based squad that is large in size (IMO 15+) because the 4++ is huge. It means that vs grav or AP3 that is str 7 or lower all your Death Company will at worst get a 4++ followed by FNP. That isn't half bad and with the speed of DC itll help you survive the initial round of shooting.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

30" is not close. Maybe if the IA had a range of 18" the BA would have a chance. DK want to ASSAULT, which means that they have to get to melta range even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
I'm sorry to be blunt but anyone that says the Riptide has terrifying firepower for its points is a numpty and doesn't actually know how to beat Tau. A standard Riptide build with Ion Accelerator is around 200 points and shoots 1 S8 AP2 Large Blast plus various shots from a secondary weapon. That Large Blast is BS3 and thus very inaccurate (on an average scatter roll it moves 4" off target) and lacks Ignores Cover so surviving it is actually not that difficult. The problem is when Markerlights are added to the fray so that it becomes super accurate and ignores cover, destroying a unit with no difficulty.

How do we fix this? Oh, is it to use the most common tactic any player should use against Tau? Why, yes. Yes it is. Kill the Markerlights and stop whining like five year olds.

Killing the markerlights would require one to have units left on the board to kill them with. I know all about killing markerlights. And yet, even without them, Riptides will hit directly 33% of the time and deny all armor saves under the blast.

Without markerlights you are still receiving cover saves... So uhh, roll those 4+s/5+s.. Unless you play on planet bowling ball, at which point maybe you should introduce more varied terrain..

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

You could slingshot him in, Martel doesn't do allies though.

He is going to nobly die on the sword that Sanguinus honourably gave him

Yoyoyo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.

I wasn't saying other armies can't deal with it, I'm just saying most other armies don't have 30 bajillion S8 or S6 shots with amazing psychic powers to back it up. Necrons have very easy ways of dealing with them...*cough*Tomb Blades*cough*.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.

I wasn't saying other armies can't deal with it, I'm just saying most other armies don't have 30 bajillion S8 or S6 shots with amazing psychic powers to back it up. Necrons have very easy ways of dealing with them...*cough*Tomb Blades*cough*.

Drop heavy flamers are a huge gamble. They are worse than useless against meched up opponents. I personally don't use them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

You could slingshot him in, Martel doesn't do allies though.

He is going to nobly die on the sword that Sanguinus honourably gave him

I'm thinking about a knight Warden, but I'm not sure that really fixes any of my problems. IA still deletes everything BUT the knight and the HYMP kill the knight.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

You could slingshot him in, Martel doesn't do allies though.

He is going to nobly die on the sword that Sanguinus honourably gave him

That's still iffy. I love Azzy in the fluff, but his rules stink. He doesn't have EW (unless his now being a Lord of War choice gave it to him ) and he's only T4 with a 2+/4++/6+ FNP.

You... Don't need S8 or even S6 to remove the marker support, they are mostly very fragile (pathfinders, drones, tetras) or very pricy (skyray and jets)

Even the networked drones are easily caught and pummeled by a lousy whirlwind, and there are many better indirect artillery out there. (amazing how tau gets hate for thier LoS ignoring SMS when nearly everyone has stronger LoS ignoring guns)

Or use you deep strikers into a position they can hit them. It takes mere 6 bolter shots to kill a drone, a heavy flamer kills two thirds of the drones hit. Lotsa options.

If you only take brute force tools, don't be surprised something designed specifically against brute force is though. Riptides should be played around by taking away thier support, not faced directly.


And for whoever used assault marine with no specials - really dude? A universally agreed bad unit in a bad setup compared to its subpar self is your argument?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 LValx wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

Tell that to Aaron Aleong who won NOVA Open and Invitational and top 8'd at LVO. Azrael is good in any assault based squad that is large in size (IMO 15+) because the 4++ is huge. It means that vs grav or AP3 that is str 7 or lower all your Death Company will at worst get a 4++ followed by FNP. That isn't half bad and with the speed of DC itll help you survive the initial round of shooting.

How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss, for two turns. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.) It's only 36 hits if they can get side armor, and then the plasma rifles can glance, and you can halve those figures again if you can avoid the ion shield by suckering an opponent into putting it on the wrong side.

jade_angel wrote:
How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.)

Maybe they'll have to exert effort and deep strike in some fusion suits, then. I just gave them a good target, and my current BA lists have no good targets for fusion suits.

I'm just used to HYMP killing everything they fire at. Lazy thinking. I stopped making the Tau player roll in some cases.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.)

Maybe they'll have to exert effort and deep strike in some fusion suits, then. I just gave them a good target, and my current BA lists have no good targets for fusion suits.

I'm just used to HYMP killing everything they fire at. Lazy thinking. I stopped making the Tau player roll in some cases.

Sorry, but that's loser mentality.
NEVER skip a roll, unlikely results are not actually as unlikely as you might think. I've been many times on both the dishing and the receiving ends of statistical anomaly. In fact, pretty much every game has at least one anomaly.

Given that you give up without even trying, I'm not going to take anything you say as valuable. Your mindset is obviously fixated on seeing only the bad at your own side, and the good at the other side.

The grass might he always greener at the other side of the fence, but you imagine a whole jungle.

DooDoo wrote:
[quote=Xenomancers
To be fair - as a marine player for a LOOONG time - I can tell you that hurts you just about as often as it helps you. Marine squads can't do dick against anything tough in CC but they sure end up being great hiding places for enemy assualt units during MY shooting phase.

Play White Scars and eliminate this weakness. Scars also have guaranteed ignores cover for 20 points and scout if they run Khan. White scars should never lose to Tau

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.)

Maybe they'll have to exert effort and deep strike in some fusion suits, then. I just gave them a good target, and my current BA lists have no good targets for fusion suits.

I'm just used to HYMP killing everything they fire at. Lazy thinking. I stopped making the Tau player roll in some cases.

Sorry, but that's loser mentality.
NEVER skip a roll, unlikely results are not actually as unlikely as you might think. I've been many times on both the dishing and the receiving ends of statistical anomaly. In fact, pretty much every game has at least one anomaly.

Given that you give up without even trying, I'm not going to take anything you say as valuable. Your mindset is obviously fixated on seeing only the bad at your own side, and the good at the other side.

The grass might he always greener at the other side of the fence, but you imagine a whole jungle.

HPing out a rhino when shot by HYMPs is not a loser mentality. Or a 5 man tac squad. One can get sick of staring at failed saves.

If I were inclined to wearing tinfoil hats, I'd bet your local Tau guy is either a cheesemonster from hell, or else an outright cheater.

jade_angel wrote:
If I were inclined to wearing tinfoil hats, I'd bet your local Tau guy is either a cheesemonster from hell, or else an outright cheater.

No, it just doesn't take many ignore cover IA shots to gut a BA list. Or CSM list. Riptides can move and the angle around LoS blocking terrain, and are immune to return fire from most imperial lists. Certainly any BA list.

martel - get a knight warden.

 Xenomancers wrote:
martel - get a knight warden.

I said I've been thinking about it. I really don't like the fact that a Riptide is tougher for half the price, though. Makes me feel like I'm getting ripped off.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You... Don't need S8 or even S6 to remove the marker support, they are mostly very fragile (pathfinders, drones, tetras) or very pricy (skyray and jets)

Even the networked drones are easily caught and pummeled by a lousy whirlwind, and there are many better indirect artillery out there. (amazing how tau gets hate for thier LoS ignoring SMS when nearly everyone has stronger LoS ignoring guns)

"Barrage" is not the same as flatout ignoring LOS.
Additionally, basically everything that you're complaining about as "stronger LoS ignoring guns" are Blast templates--meaning they can Scatter.

In any regards, it's also not coupled with a 5 point Interceptor on demand upgrade for whatever weapons you want in the form of Early Warning Overrides.

Or use you deep strikers into a position they can hit them. It takes mere 6 bolter shots to kill a drone, a heavy flamer kills two thirds of the drones hit. Lotsa options.

And before your Deep Strikers can fire, they have to survive a round of EWO coupled with SMS--because SMS doesn't require LOS and can be fired as Interceptor.

If you only take brute force tools, don't be surprised something designed specifically against brute force is though. Riptides should be played around by taking away thier support, not faced directly.

When someone "only" takes Riptide Wings and Drone Networks, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of a way for the other player to remove their support.

And for whoever used assault marine with no specials - really dude? A universally agreed bad unit in a bad setup compared to its subpar self is your argument?

Says the guy who advocates deep striking heavy flamers(only available on Sternguard and Legion of the Damned) and bolters to kill Pathfinders and Marker Drones.

Whirlwinds have an ignore's cover shot right?

 Torus wrote:
Whirlwinds have an ignore's cover shot right?

Yup. What's your point?
It's S4 AP5 Ordnance 1, Barrage, Ignores Cover, and Large Blast versus the other which is S5 AP4 Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast.

Barrage weapons, in order to be fired indirectly(where they get no benefit from their BS for the purposes of reducing Scatter), need to be outside of their minimum range(in the case of a Whirlwind: 12") to utilize their "ignores LOS fire".

Still, isn't this a valid tool for hunting t3 pathfinders or t4 drones?

Not meaning to offend, I just haven't used my marines in a while and a squadron of whirlwinds with pinning and shred just seem like an adequate solution to markerlights in cover...

 Torus wrote:
Still, isn't this a valid tool for hunting t3 pathfinders or t4 drones?

Not meaning to offend, I just haven't used my marines in a while and a squadron of whirlwinds with pinning and shred just seem like an adequate solution to markerlights in cover...

I'm not saying it's not a solution: I'm saying it's not a RELIABLE solution. You have to remember that when firing a Barrage weapon when you have no LOS?
You're not subtracting your BS from the Scatter results. That's a huge downside.

Additionally, remember that my reply was specifically quoting someone claiming that it was "amazing how tau gets hate for their LoS ignoring SMS when nearly everyone has stronger LoS ignoring guns".
The reason SMS gets so much hate is that it's a standard option on Broadsides and Riptides, not a Barrage/Blast, and is on platforms with access to a ridiculously easy joke of an Interceptor-on-Demand upgrade.

Add in as well that those platforms aren't vehicles that can be glanced to death and it is as though Tau players are willingly blinding themselves as to why people find it so irritating to play against certain builds.

At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

I hear that DE/harlequin Freakshows are very good against riptides and Stormsurges. One good Psychic Shriek can kill a riptide and force tho others to fall back. CC ability is also devastating against Riptides.

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Doesn't change what i said, at all.

Last time i checked, everything in 40K can be killed. So pointing out that it can also isnt really addressing my point.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Doesn't change what i said, at all.

Last time i checked, everything in 40K can be killed. So pointing out that it can also isnt really addressing my point.

I'm saying that AV 13 walkers (only on the front, mind you) actually are kinda crappy against Xenos. But great against other Imperials. Ah the irony. Does that change what you said enough? There's a reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Warden yet. I don't think it will help that much. Just give fusion suits and fire dragons a target.

And artillery guns who are not that hot against imperial forces are murderous against xenos, your point?

Different tools gets different jobs done.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And artillery guns who are not that hot against imperial forces are murderous against xenos, your point?

Different tools gets different jobs done.

What guns are you speaking of? Because 3+ armor and better is now the standard for Xenos as well.

Fusion suits aren't actually all that good against Knights, believe it or not. It's possible (but pretty unlikely) to drop one in one turn, but the bigger the unit, the riskier the deep strike is, plus possible reserve-roll screwage.

Fire Dragons are scarier - more likely to get that 1d3 HP result, don't need markerlights - and Wraithguard are scarier still.

That said, I'd favor the Knight Crusader instead of the Warden: two battle cannon shots can put a damper on a lot of stuff. You can shred some markerlight support, and still have the gatling gun. You lose the D-chainsword, but it's still S10 AP2 in melee with Stomp, so it's no joke.

Yes, Wraithknights will screw it up. Alas, there's not a very good answer for that for anyone except Necrons, Tau and other Eldar (who just bury it in fire until they get lucky enough times). But, against anything else, the Knight Crusader is pretty scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
3+ Armor? What's that? (I say, wearing my Dark Eldar hat.) :-P

But, yes, in fairness, Eldar, Tau and Necrons have 3+ almost everywhere.

jade_angel wrote:
Fusion suits aren't actually all that good against Knights, believe it or not. It's possible to drop one in one turn, but the bigger the unit, the riskier the deep strike is, plus possible reserve-roll screwage.

Fire Dragons are scarier - more likely to get that 1d3 HP result, don't need markerlights - and Wraithguard are scarier still.

That said, I'd favor the Knight Crusader instead of the Warden: two battle cannon shots can put a damper on a lot of stuff. You can shred some markerlight support, and still have the gatling gun. You lose the D-chainsword, but it's still S10 AP2 in melee with Stomp, so it's no joke.

Yes, Wraithknights will screw it up. Alas, there's not a very good answer for that for anyone except Necrons, Tau and other Eldar (who just bury it in fire until they get lucky enough times). But, against anything else, the Knight Crusader is pretty scary.

More dakka? The chainsaw is the only realistic way to get any Str D in a BA list, though. And the crusader gives up more points when it dies.

DE aren't Xenos anymore. They're officially a sub set of the IG now with that 5+ armor.

That's a good point, yeah. I suppose it depends how interesting the D-blade is versus having both the RFBC and the AGC on the same guy. The D is really good if you can manage to get into melee with most anything I4 or less, and a Warden can probably run a Riptide down unless they get really lucky with jet-pack moves (or keep nova-charging for 4d6 jumps, but then they're probably eating nova failures...)

So yeah, the Warden actually might work just as well.

The D-blade can also chain-saw through something like a Storm Surge in a reasonable amount of time instead of being tarpitted forever.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at your doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Doesn't change what i said, at all.

Last time i checked, everything in 40K can be killed. So pointing out that it can also isnt really addressing my point.

I'm saying that AV 13 walkers (only on the front, mind you) actually are kinda crappy against Xenos. But great against other Imperials. Ah the irony. Does that change what you said enough? There's a reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Warden yet. I don't think it will help that much. Just give fusion suits and fire dragons a target.

Would you be open to taking a raven wing support squadron? It's a dark angels formaton of land speeders that comes stock with interceptor. It has to take ether a dark shroud or the plasma speeder BUT in this case it might work good for you. Take 3-4 Landspeeders with missles and HB and Dark shroud and hang them behind your warden. You can use them to pick off suicide deep strikers off your warden and also to pick off squads of pathfinders and stuff. You can do this outside of the range of most tau firepower it's only 275 points with 3 speeders and the shroud it's decent firepower with interceptor. It's what I do to protect my knight. Then if you are showing only front armor to HYMP you should live long enough to make it into a riptide or two.

Interesting. It would be like reliving the old combined codex. As a formation, it stands alone as a detachment, too, I believe. It would take me a while to get this stuff together because we are talking 2 codices plus knight plus 4 ish speeders.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm saying that AV 13 walkers (only on the front, mind you) actually are kinda crappy against Xenos. But great against other Imperials. Ah the irony. Does that change what you said enough? There's a reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Warden yet. I don't think it will help that much. Just give fusion suits and fire dragons a target.

Xenos is a big word. I wouldn't use it quite so liberally when describing what you mean here.

Here's a fact: when dealing with Riptide Wings there is one sure fire thing they don't like, right? Attacks on their Leadership and assaults. Since we are talking about Riptide Wings and YOU are bringing up Blood Angels, i am assuming you want to know what to do about Riptide Wings with Blood Angels.

So if that is actually what you want to know, i am actually observing that the AV 13 helps them stand up very well to the Riptide when it tries to end you. Riptide guns come in two varieties and they basically both need 6's to hurt the Dread (unlss they want to do the gets hot thing or Nova Reactor thing in which case you may get free wounds on the beast). Extra Armor will help a lot so you don't get stuck in place on the drop of course. Worst case he' got a 50/50 chance of taking a hull point off IF he doesn't scatter. So its actually NOT the worst suggestion ever for handling some Riptides.

Fear of the Darkness will help you drive off a Riptide potentially. It is certainly no guarantee, but it cannot be discounted either as a tool.

Your Vanguard Veterans can all have Grav pistols if you wished and when they drop from the Storm Raven, this can be pretty darn conclusive if you include a couple Thunderhammers or Powerfists into the mix. You have to stand the StormRaven up for a round and that can be a challenge if the enemy has enough anti-air. An interesting second option here is a Rhino going full out round one, and using the Wings of Sanguinus power on the Vanguard after they move. this gives them 18" movement in round 1, which should set them up for a round 2 charge as good as any the Storm Raven could have delivered. Strategic Warlord Traits could make this easier as well. So you could go one or both ways with it.

The Blood Angels also have Feel No Pain generators as you know and when one is near Mephiston, je can't be instant kill'd by a Riptide Wing. He also is an independent character thatr can be in the Vanguard and leading them to tank the Instant death stuff with FnP. he has access to Biomancy as well which could be useful o nthe approach. Again, this would be if you are eschewing the Storm Raven. If you loaded just him and a Dreadnought in the Storm Raven, he can survive being blown out and proceed to terrorize or join the Vanguard unit later.

And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

Again, just some thoughts on it. I think I would have as my anti-Riptide Wing core:

4 Furioso's
Mephiston (Sword of Sanguinis for ending those silly Riptides? Yes please!)
2 Librarians (level 2 and more Force Weapons)
Sanguinary Priest
Storm Raven
4 units of troops
5 Drop Pods
1 Rhino
10 Vanguard Veterans (Grav pistols x5, Thunder Hammer, Power Fist)

No idea what those points look like, but those are good tools for killing a Riptide Wing and for that matter, other things also.

If you want guarantees, I'm fresh out. But that's a lot of Force Weapons and high end high armor killing machines. A pretty good amount of Obsec. Good amount of options for deployment, enough antitank to choke a horse in there most likely.

Martel732 wrote:
Interesting. It would be like reliving the old combined codex. As a formation, it stands alone as a detachment, too, I believe. It would take me a while to get this stuff together because we are talking 2 codices plus knight plus 4 ish speeders.

For me I only have to pick up a dark shroud because I had the speeders already. The Warden I already had and like you said - most of the time normally dead turn 2 from some suicide melta squad that costs 1/2 of the knight. 3 speeders with rockets should be able to mess any infantry up - even battle-suits. It contributes to overall firepower whilst protecting you from deepstrike - like it a lot. It's imperial so you don't have to betray the emperor.

but if tau with their unbeatable riptides are so awesome why no tau in top 8 at LVO?

blackmage wrote:
but if tau with their unbeatable riptides are so awesome why no tau in top 8 at LVO?

Because gladius marines can hide in their free boxes and make the Tau waste a ton of shot just demeching them. WK don't care about IA, along with every other MC in the game. So if other lists with OP MCs can take out the HYMP and regular suits, the Riptides will never kill them in time. The Riptides in turn likely won't die, but in this case it won't matter because there are too many suboptimal targets for the Riptides.

but i saw tau lost also with eldars and demons... not just gladius marines...
and anyway that mean regardless unbeatable tides gladius beat them so not anymore so unbeatable, gladius marines are very common around

blackmage wrote:
but i saw tau lost also with eldars and demons... not just gladius marines...
and anyway that mean regardless unbeatable tides gladius beat them so not anymore so unbeatable, gladius marines are very common around

Because the ITC scoring was not just killpoints, but also mission points, something Tau struggle with. And the only reason Daemons placed was because it was Belakor with Summoning and Screamer/Pink horror spam. Also, 2 Tau got in the Top 16, they just barely lost out to Eldar. Tau did just as well as SM, the Daemons player just did well with a pretty cheesed out build. Quit trying to act like Tau are so weak.

blackmage wrote:
but i saw tau lost also with eldars and demons... not just gladius marines...
and anyway that mean regardless unbeatable tides gladius beat them so not anymore so unbeatable, gladius marines are very common around

The Gladius Strike Force is very powerful as Battle Company. It was a mistake, a pretty big one. They can't undo it now. Organizers are just going to have to adopt a detachment limit like i've advocated or they will be inviting what feels like a completely unfair matchup to a lot of people. You cant GIVE someone 500 free points and say its a fair matchup. Just saying.

 Jancoran wrote:

blackmage wrote:
but i saw tau lost also with eldars and demons... not just gladius marines...
and anyway that mean regardless unbeatable tides gladius beat them so not anymore so unbeatable, gladius marines are very common around

The Gladius Strike Force is very powerful as Battle Company. It was a mistake, a pretty big one. They can't undo it now. Organizers are just going to have to adopt a detachment limit like i've advocated or they will be inviting what feels like a completely unfair matchup to a lot of people. You cant GIVE someone 500 free points and say its a fair matchup. Just saying.

Well, when the opposition has WK and Riptides... maybe you can. Tac marines are only viable when you give them free stuff.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

blackmage wrote:
but i saw tau lost also with eldars and demons... not just gladius marines...
and anyway that mean regardless unbeatable tides gladius beat them so not anymore so unbeatable, gladius marines are very common around

The Gladius Strike Force is very powerful as Battle Company. It was a mistake, a pretty big one. They can't undo it now. Organizers are just going to have to adopt a detachment limit like i've advocated or they will be inviting what feels like a completely unfair matchup to a lot of people. You cant GIVE someone 500 free points and say its a fair matchup. Just saying.

Well, when the opposition has WK and Riptides... maybe you can. Tac marines are only viable when you give them free stuff.

Doesnt change a thing. Wraith Knights are NOT unkillable and with a 0-1 limit (if you play that way) it's not the boogeyman everyone makes it out to be (but it is EXCELLENT). Unfairly priced? Yes! But it's ONE unit that's probably 50-75 points under priced. You cant tell me that an extra 75 points in an Eldar list is why you lost nor that this justifies YOU getting 500 points of anything because you're not always FACING Eldar!

I do not recognize zero sum thinking as an argument for much of anything. Stem the blood flow, don't increase the puddle so large you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

Its not just wk that's undercosted. Most of the codex is undercosted.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

blackmage wrote:
but i saw tau lost also with eldars and demons... not just gladius marines...
and anyway that mean regardless unbeatable tides gladius beat them so not anymore so unbeatable, gladius marines are very common around

The Gladius Strike Force is very powerful as Battle Company. It was a mistake, a pretty big one. They can't undo it now. Organizers are just going to have to adopt a detachment limit like i've advocated or they will be inviting what feels like a completely unfair matchup to a lot of people. You cant GIVE someone 500 free points and say its a fair matchup. Just saying.

Well, when the opposition has WK and Riptides... maybe you can. Tac marines are only viable when you give them free stuff.

Doesnt change a thing. Wraith Knights are NOT unkillable and with a 0-1 limit (if you play that way) it's not the boogeyman everyone makes it out to be (but it is EXCELLENT). Unfairly priced? Yes! But it's ONE unit that's probably 50-75 points under priced. You cant tell me that an extra 75 points in an Eldar list is why you lost nor that this justifies YOU getting 500 points of anything because you're not always FACING Eldar!

I do not recognize zero sum thinking as an argument for much of anything. Stem the blood flow, don't increase the puddle so large you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

How many people running gladius at the event with 480 free points and only 1 makes the top 8? The guy got lucky - plain and simple. He probably was nearly wiped off the board in ever game he played - he just won because he was able to complete stupid objectives by tying up squads. I regularly beat gladius armies with my ultras just running a cad and skyhammer. I beat them with greyknights and an IK all the time - running basically the same list (expect in many cases better than the list that won LVO) ofc these are casual games and I'm sure the winner was a very good tactician. However - I'm really tired of people calling gladius OP. Razorbacks are crap - the chaplain you are forced to play is crap - you can't fit psykers into the army at 1850 - and to optimize the free points you get you have to take practically no-grav cannons - which basically makes up the free points on it's own. Now If you got 480 points of free grav centuians - I'm pretty sure you'd never lose a game with it.

I would say part of the problem is HOW tau is played rather than the tools they have available. I mean alot of tau players are still stuck in 3rd edition, sitting at the back of the board. The easiest solution is just to take an ally detachment (like warp spiders or eldar cad + wraithknight), but doing stuff like pushing riptides/ storm surges up the board is what Tau should be doing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

blackmage wrote:
but i saw tau lost also with eldars and demons... not just gladius marines...
and anyway that mean regardless unbeatable tides gladius beat them so not anymore so unbeatable, gladius marines are very common around

The Gladius Strike Force is very powerful as Battle Company. It was a mistake, a pretty big one. They can't undo it now. Organizers are just going to have to adopt a detachment limit like i've advocated or they will be inviting what feels like a completely unfair matchup to a lot of people. You cant GIVE someone 500 free points and say its a fair matchup. Just saying.

Well, when the opposition has WK and Riptides... maybe you can. Tac marines are only viable when you give them free stuff.

Doesnt change a thing. Wraith Knights are NOT unkillable and with a 0-1 limit (if you play that way) it's not the boogeyman everyone makes it out to be (but it is EXCELLENT). Unfairly priced? Yes! But it's ONE unit that's probably 50-75 points under priced. You cant tell me that an extra 75 points in an Eldar list is why you lost nor that this justifies YOU getting 500 points of anything because you're not always FACING Eldar!

I do not recognize zero sum thinking as an argument for much of anything. Stem the blood flow, don't increase the puddle so large you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

How many people running gladius at the event with 480 free points and only 1 makes the top 8? The guy got lucky - plain and simple. He probably was nearly wiped off the board in ever game he played - he just won because he was able to complete stupid objectives by tying up squads. I regularly beat gladius armies with my ultras just running a cad and skyhammer. I beat them with greyknights and an IK all the time - running basically the same list (expect in many cases better than the list that won LVO) ofc these are casual games and I'm sure the winner was a very good tactician. However - I'm really tired of people calling gladius OP. Razorbacks are crap - the chaplain you are forced to play is crap - you can't fit psykers into the army at 1850 - and to optimize the free points you get you have to take practically no-grav cannons - which basically makes up the free points on it's own. Now If you got 480 points of free grav centuians - I'm pretty sure you'd never lose a game with it.

Maybe its all true and yet...not a reason to give 500 points to an army. So you can tell me that you're good and I will believe you, but don't tell me its a good reason to get 500 free points. Heres the bottom line: there ARE no good reasons to get 500 free points. None.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iddy00711 wrote:
I would say part of the problem is HOW tau is played rather than the tools they have available. I mean alot of tau players are still stuck in 3rd edition, sitting at the back of the board. The easiest solution is just to take an ally detachment (like warp spiders or eldar cad + wraithknight), but doing stuff like pushing riptides/ storm surges up the board is what Tau should be doing.

Tau play extremely mobile if you let them. I know mine do and until this new Tidewall Rampart came out, it's got to have been a decade since I thought about gun lining them. So i agree.

I never willingly go to 4chan. It's a very scary place with a LOT of profanity and a LOT of irreverance. Yuck. Too scared to even click that link. Lol.

 iddy00711 wrote:
I would say part of the problem is HOW tau is played rather than the tools they have available. I mean alot of tau players are still stuck in 3rd edition, sitting at the back of the board. The easiest solution is just to take an ally detachment (like warp spiders or eldar cad + wraithknight), but doing stuff like pushing riptides/ storm surges up the board is what Tau should be doing.

Its not just Tau players, lot of people i face are still appalled at the idea that i play midfield tau or *gasp* CHARGE once in awhile.
But i agree, people still play the sit-back-n-shoot game. Really dont get why either, Riptides with IA or the Stormsurge are the only "reliable" long range guns we got, and the Riptide is terrible at high armor kills while the Stormsurge either only gets 1/2 shots of S10 Ord blast or 1shot D missile, assuming enough marks hit to bother. The moment a gunline Tau list faces someone with AV13+ long range guns, which are usually just as deadly if not worse depending on the gun, they lose because they need some damn good luck to kill that vehicle at a distance.
F' that, i'd rather charge forward and deepstrike behind you. More fun and gets rid of that damn tank splatting my suits a lot quicker.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 iddy00711 wrote:
I would say part of the problem is HOW tau is played rather than the tools they have available. I mean alot of tau players are still stuck in 3rd edition, sitting at the back of the board. The easiest solution is just to take an ally detachment (like warp spiders or eldar cad + wraithknight), but doing stuff like pushing riptides/ storm surges up the board is what Tau should be doing.

Its not just Tau players, lot of people i face are still appalled at the idea that i play midfield tau or *gasp* CHARGE once in awhile.
But i agree, people still play the sit-back-n-shoot game. Really dont get why either, Riptides with IA or the Stormsurge are the only "reliable" long range guns we got, and the Riptide is terrible at high armor kills while the Stormsurge either only gets 1/2 shots of S10 Ord blast or 1shot D missile, assuming enough marks hit to bother. The moment a gunline Tau list faces someone with AV13+ long range guns, which are usually just as deadly if not worse depending on the gun, they lose because they need some damn good luck to kill that vehicle at a distance.
F' that, i'd rather charge forward and deepstrike behind you. More fun and gets rid of that damn tank splatting my suits a lot quicker.

Right. I actually won a ton of tournaments without Crisis teams either. I used Kroot, Pathfinders, Sniper Drones, Devilfish Fire Warriors, 2 Riptides, Markerswarms and a couple Broadsides. Tried some variants but I went years without Crisis teams. I owned like 20 but I just never needed them. So there are a lot of fun ways to play Tau Empire.

It's funny to see someone whose dead set against the mods to new Tau stating its okay to mod another army.

"mod" another army? Did i miss something?

 Jancoran wrote:
And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

That 3x Stormraven formation seems pretty capable of getting an edge through reserves, with a Damocles Rhino you have a 35/36 chance of entering on T1. Then you can charge targets from deepstrike on T2.

What do you think of this Jancoran?

Archangels Fury Spearhead (BA Formation)
3x Stormravens, 3x Tacs w/Teleport Homer

Baal Strike Force (BA Detachment)
1x Damocles Rhino - (+1 or -1 to Reserves Roll)
1x Librarian - Veritas Vitae, Auspex, JP
1x Command Squad - JP, 3x SS
2x DC w/JP, PF
1x Vanguard Vets w/JP
2x Scouts

The Damocles can deploy out of LOS giving +1/-1 to reserves rolls. Also, a one-use Orbital Strike to discourage castling.
The Librarian generates 2x Strat traits and spots for the Stormravens with the Auspex. Also has a Force Axe and Quickening to chop up big targets.
The Command squad gives the Warlord an escort, with 3x SS and FNP to tank high-AP fire and to help with Perils.
The DC squads can apply single target damage with a PF and volume of attacks.
The Vanguard Vets are there to multi-charge with rerolls, to hold multiple units in CC as needed.
The Scouts can outflank or infiltrate, to act as cutoffs for escaping enemy troops attempting to flee the jump units.
The Tacs have teleport homers to enable assault from DS, and can deploy while zooming to take Objectives quickly.
The Stormravens can launch Concussive missiles at MCs to shape them for assault, or grind down AV targets.

I want to reserve everything except the Damocles. Scouts can infiltrate, outflank, or deploy in the Damocles as needed.
My flyer formation has a 35/36 chance of entering on T1 without interference.
If I go first, I can assault at the beginning of T2.
If I go second, I can assault at the bottom of T2.
I'm unlikely to face flyers on T1, though ground fire might cause problems for the flyers.
My jump troops can charge on T2 from any intersecting point between two Teleport Homers. So the critical part of the game is positioning by T2, when the Jump Troops enter.
The Tacs with Obsec can either concentrate on scoring, countercharge, or screen the Jump Troops as needed.

Is it a little farfetched or does this stand a chance? Riptides aren't great AA, right?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

That 3x Stormraven formation seems pretty capable of getting an edge through reserves, with a Damocles Rhino you have a 35/36 chance of entering on T1. Then you can charge targets from deepstrike on T2.

What do you think of this Jancoran?

Archangels Fury Spearhead (BA Formation)
3x Stormravens, 3x Tacs w/Teleport Homer

Baal Strike Force (BA Detachment)
1x Damocles Rhino - (+1 or -1 to Reserves Roll)
1x Librarian - Veritas Vitae, Auspex, JP
1x Command Squad - JP, 3x SS
2x DC w/JP, PF
1x Vanguard Vets w/JP
2x Scouts

The Damocles can deploy out of LOS giving +1/-1 to reserves rolls. Also, a one-use Orbital Strike to discourage castling.
The Librarian generates 2x Strat traits and spots for the Stormravens with the Auspex. Also has a Force Axe and Quickening to chop up big targets.
The Command squad gives the Warlord an escort, with 3x SS and FNP to tank high-AP fire and to help with Perils.
The DC squads can apply single target damage with a PF and volume of attacks.
The Vanguard Vets are there to multi-charge with rerolls, to hold multiple units in CC as needed.
The Scouts can outflank or infiltrate, to act as cutoffs for escaping enemy troops attempting to flee the jump units.
The Tacs have teleport homers to enable assault from DS, and can deploy while zooming to take Objectives quickly.
The Stormravens can launch Concussive missiles at MCs to shape them for assault, or grind down AV targets.

I want to reserve everything except the Damocles. Scouts can infiltrate, outflank, or deploy in the Damocles as needed.
My flyer formation has a 35/36 chance of entering on T1 without interference.
If I go first, I can assault at the beginning of T2.
If I go second, I can assault at the bottom of T2.
I'm unlikely to face flyers on T1, though ground fire might cause problems for the flyers.
My jump troops can charge on T2 from any intersecting point between two Teleport Homers. So the critical part of the game is positioning by T2, when the Jump Troops enter.
The Tacs with Obsec can either concentrate on scoring, countercharge, or screen the Jump Troops as needed.

Is it a little farfetched or does this stand a chance? Riptides aren't great AA, right?

Works great in general but they just melt you with interceptor on the deep strike drops. Deep striking vs tau is basically not an option.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

That 3x Stormraven formation seems pretty capable of getting an edge through reserves, with a Damocles Rhino you have a 35/36 chance of entering on T1. Then you can charge targets from deepstrike on T2.

What do you think of this Jancoran?

Archangels Fury Spearhead (BA Formation)
3x Stormravens, 3x Tacs w/Teleport Homer

Baal Strike Force (BA Detachment)
1x Damocles Rhino - (+1 or -1 to Reserves Roll)
1x Librarian - Veritas Vitae, Auspex, JP
1x Command Squad - JP, 3x SS
2x DC w/JP, PF
1x Vanguard Vets w/JP
2x Scouts

The Damocles can deploy out of LOS giving +1/-1 to reserves rolls. Also, a one-use Orbital Strike to discourage castling.
The Librarian generates 2x Strat traits and spots for the Stormravens with the Auspex. Also has a Force Axe and Quickening to chop up big targets.
The Command squad gives the Warlord an escort, with 3x SS and FNP to tank high-AP fire and to help with Perils.
The DC squads can apply single target damage with a PF and volume of attacks.
The Vanguard Vets are there to multi-charge with rerolls, to hold multiple units in CC as needed.
The Scouts can outflank or infiltrate, to act as cutoffs for escaping enemy troops attempting to flee the jump units.
The Tacs have teleport homers to enable assault from DS, and can deploy while zooming to take Objectives quickly.
The Stormravens can launch Concussive missiles at MCs to shape them for assault, or grind down AV targets.

I want to reserve everything except the Damocles. Scouts can infiltrate, outflank, or deploy in the Damocles as needed.
My flyer formation has a 35/36 chance of entering on T1 without interference.
If I go first, I can assault at the beginning of T2.
If I go second, I can assault at the bottom of T2.
I'm unlikely to face flyers on T1, though ground fire might cause problems for the flyers.
My jump troops can charge on T2 from any intersecting point between two Teleport Homers. So the critical part of the game is positioning by T2, when the Jump Troops enter.
The Tacs with Obsec can either concentrate on scoring, countercharge, or screen the Jump Troops as needed.

Is it a little farfetched or does this stand a chance? Riptides aren't great AA, right?

Pray to the Emperor that your deepstrike units not getting blown off the broad before they even fire a shot. The EWO is way too undercosted. Any smart Tau player is going to arm their Ripetides and missile broadsides with it, usually you can expect more than a third of your deepstrikers die at the end of your own movement phase. But anyway, it maybe worth it as you can get close and EWO are not likely be supportted by markerlight, rather than you jump across the board being shot all way long.
Remember one thing, find ruins to deep strike into, better if those terrain can block LoS. Don't worry about dangerous terrain check, it is one in 18 chances to kill your own model, but it doubled your survivability facing that S8 AP2 large blast when your valuable unit come in.
A more general idea to avoid the interceptor fire is to MSU your deepstrikers, or if you run a squad which you really don't want them to die before reaching combat, like DC or some scary CC unit, put a IC with the Angel's Wing with them, that make those interceptor fire become snapshot.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

That 3x Stormraven formation seems pretty capable of getting an edge through reserves, with a Damocles Rhino you have a 35/36 chance of entering on T1. Then you can charge targets from deepstrike on T2.

What do you think of this Jancoran?

Archangels Fury Spearhead (BA Formation)
3x Stormravens, 3x Tacs w/Teleport Homer

Baal Strike Force (BA Detachment)
1x Damocles Rhino - (+1 or -1 to Reserves Roll)
1x Librarian - Veritas Vitae, Auspex, JP
1x Command Squad - JP, 3x SS
2x DC w/JP, PF
1x Vanguard Vets w/JP
2x Scouts

The Damocles can deploy out of LOS giving +1/-1 to reserves rolls. Also, a one-use Orbital Strike to discourage castling.
The Librarian generates 2x Strat traits and spots for the Stormravens with the Auspex. Also has a Force Axe and Quickening to chop up big targets.
The Command squad gives the Warlord an escort, with 3x SS and FNP to tank high-AP fire and to help with Perils.
The DC squads can apply single target damage with a PF and volume of attacks.
The Vanguard Vets are there to multi-charge with rerolls, to hold multiple units in CC as needed.
The Scouts can outflank or infiltrate, to act as cutoffs for escaping enemy troops attempting to flee the jump units.
The Tacs have teleport homers to enable assault from DS, and can deploy while zooming to take Objectives quickly.
The Stormravens can launch Concussive missiles at MCs to shape them for assault, or grind down AV targets.

I want to reserve everything except the Damocles. Scouts can infiltrate, outflank, or deploy in the Damocles as needed.
My flyer formation has a 35/36 chance of entering on T1 without interference.
If I go first, I can assault at the beginning of T2.
If I go second, I can assault at the bottom of T2.
I'm unlikely to face flyers on T1, though ground fire might cause problems for the flyers.
My jump troops can charge on T2 from any intersecting point between two Teleport Homers. So the critical part of the game is positioning by T2, when the Jump Troops enter.
The Tacs with Obsec can either concentrate on scoring, countercharge, or screen the Jump Troops as needed.

Is it a little farfetched or does this stand a chance? Riptides aren't great AA, right?

Pray to the Emperor that your deepstrike units not getting blown off the broad before they even fire a shot. The EWO is way too undercosted. Any smart Tau player is going to arm their Ripetides and missile broadsides with it, usually you can expect more than a third of your deepstrikers die at the end of your own movement phase. But anyway, it maybe worth it as you can get close and EWO are not likely be supportted by markerlight, rather than you jump across the board being shot all way long.
Remember one thing, find ruins to deep strike into, better if those terrain can block LoS. Don't worry about dangerous terrain check, it is one in 18 chances to kill your own model, but it doubled your survivability facing that S8 AP2 large blast when your valuable unit come in.

But then you get minus 2 to your assualt roll.

 Xenomancers wrote:
But then you get minus 2 to your assualt roll.

I can try to pick up MTC (Ruins) and Stealth (Ruins) from the Strat table.

I get two Strat traits with rerolls, so that's a decent chance.

Deep strike can work great against Tau - First you need area saturation. First drop a big juicy unit so they shoot it as much as possible to use up there intercepting units. Drop pods are great - you disembark 1" away from Tau units so they don't drop pie plates. I regularly beat Tau with my drop pod armies.

But drop pods are weak against a lot of other list archetypes.

They don't have to be plus you don't have to run all pods.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They don't have to be plus you don't have to run all pods.

Pods crumble in general against null deployment/ delayed deployment or anything that can survive the alpha strike really.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

That 3x Stormraven formation seems pretty capable of getting an edge through reserves, with a Damocles Rhino you have a 35/36 chance of entering on T1. Then you can charge targets from deepstrike on T2.

What do you think of this Jancoran?

Archangels Fury Spearhead (BA Formation)
3x Stormravens, 3x Tacs w/Teleport Homer

Baal Strike Force (BA Detachment)
1x Damocles Rhino - (+1 or -1 to Reserves Roll)
1x Librarian - Veritas Vitae, Auspex, JP
1x Command Squad - JP, 3x SS
2x DC w/JP, PF
1x Vanguard Vets w/JP
2x Scouts

The Damocles can deploy out of LOS giving +1/-1 to reserves rolls. Also, a one-use Orbital Strike to discourage castling.
The Librarian generates 2x Strat traits and spots for the Stormravens with the Auspex. Also has a Force Axe and Quickening to chop up big targets.
The Command squad gives the Warlord an escort, with 3x SS and FNP to tank high-AP fire and to help with Perils.
The DC squads can apply single target damage with a PF and volume of attacks.
The Vanguard Vets are there to multi-charge with rerolls, to hold multiple units in CC as needed.
The Scouts can outflank or infiltrate, to act as cutoffs for escaping enemy troops attempting to flee the jump units.
The Tacs have teleport homers to enable assault from DS, and can deploy while zooming to take Objectives quickly.
The Stormravens can launch Concussive missiles at MCs to shape them for assault, or grind down AV targets.

I want to reserve everything except the Damocles. Scouts can infiltrate, outflank, or deploy in the Damocles as needed.
My flyer formation has a 35/36 chance of entering on T1 without interference.
If I go first, I can assault at the beginning of T2.
If I go second, I can assault at the bottom of T2.
I'm unlikely to face flyers on T1, though ground fire might cause problems for the flyers.
My jump troops can charge on T2 from any intersecting point between two Teleport Homers. So the critical part of the game is positioning by T2, when the Jump Troops enter.
The Tacs with Obsec can either concentrate on scoring, countercharge, or screen the Jump Troops as needed.

Is it a little farfetched or does this stand a chance? Riptides aren't great AA, right?

Riptides are not great AA. That's true. My Riptides usually take the ability to do it on one just because I want an option in a pinch. But really...not beter off doing it. However they are good at intercepting with a large blast. so this would depend largely on the type of riptide. I always take the Ion Cannon version, though I know some die hards are really big on the other one so again, it depends.

So i think the general approach is fine but the Deep Strike charges may not be wise to attempt against Ion Cannons without Mephiston to tank it or something like him. Making matters worse is that you cant even run into a circle formation before he fires down on you. That was generally why I chose Furiosos and a rhino to hide the charge for a round using Psykers to speed them along. I foresee interceptor as being an incredibly good counter to this and its not remotely rare on Riptides as i am sure you learned.

So the overall list has merit but it might be hampered somewhat in execution. Plus is there a downside to being a LITTLE patient and firing your missiles into the Riptides for a round before getting down and dirty? 12 STR 8 AP 1 missiles? That will definitely leave a dent and SUBSTANTIALY reduce any remaining Riptides from wanting to change the Nova Reactor or Gets hot.

Food for thought. I do like the Rhino though. A lot.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They don't have to be plus you don't have to run all pods.

Pods crumble in general against null deployment/ delayed deployment or anything that can survive the alpha strike really.

Pods are great - they just suck when you put space marines in them. My friends ruin me with IG command squads in pods and vets too...uncounterable ignore cover metlas and plasmas able to get a point swing with relative easy vs any space marine unit. Can't put stuff in reserve to avoid them because hell run a a 20 point command unit that lets him get +1 to reserves and -1 to me. guess only solute against that crap is to run gladius and give him no target worth destroying.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They don't have to be plus you don't have to run all pods.

Pods crumble in general against null deployment/ delayed deployment or anything that can survive the alpha strike really.

Pods are great - they just suck when you put space marines in them. My friends ruin me with IG command squads in pods and vets too...uncounterable ignore cover metlas and plasmas able to get a point swing with relative easy vs any space marine unit. Can't put stuff in reserve to avoid them because hell run a a 20 point command unit that lets him get +1 to reserves and -1 to me. guess only solute against that crap is to run gladius and give him no target worth destroying.

That unit is rather easy to take off the board.

Honestly, saying anything IG (or is it AM these days?) is uncounterable is rather...sad. its not a strong codex at all.

Nah they arent. IG/AM are just one of those armies that they either own you or you own them because you just happened to have the right list.
Not many IG players around here but the few games i get with one its extremely one-sided, as orks or tau. There is no average game against high AV tanks, its either you cant touch'm or you obliterate them lol.

Still not a bad codex, just nothing overly amazing either.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They don't have to be plus you don't have to run all pods.

Pods crumble in general against null deployment/ delayed deployment or anything that can survive the alpha strike really.

I said you dont have to run all pods.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They don't have to be plus you don't have to run all pods.

Pods crumble in general against null deployment/ delayed deployment or anything that can survive the alpha strike really.

Pods are great - they just suck when you put space marines in them. My friends ruin me with IG command squads in pods and vets too...uncounterable ignore cover metlas and plasmas able to get a point swing with relative easy vs any space marine unit. Can't put stuff in reserve to avoid them because hell run a a 20 point command unit that lets him get +1 to reserves and -1 to me. guess only solute against that crap is to run gladius and give him no target worth destroying.

That unit is rather easy to take off the board.

Honestly, saying anything IG (or is it AM these days?) is uncounterable is rather...sad. its not a strong codex at all.

It's a suicide unit - in a drop pod. It can be dropped in such a way that it can't mishap and is automatically in range to kill it's target. The ignore cover order is a leadership test that I can't deny (very high success rate) and they get more cheap special weapons on target than anything else can for less points. If they destroy something that costs more than they do it's an automatic advantage. That's kinda the way it goes. What exactly can I do to counter such cheese?

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They don't have to be plus you don't have to run all pods.

Pods crumble in general against null deployment/ delayed deployment or anything that can survive the alpha strike really.

I said you dont have to run all pods.

Okay, fair enough.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nah they arent. IG/AM are just one of those armies that they either own you or you own them because you just happened to have the right list.
Not many IG players around here but the few games i get with one its extremely one-sided, as orks or tau. There is no average game against high AV tanks, its either you cant touch'm or you obliterate them lol.

Still not a bad codex, just nothing overly amazing either.

If you only run their cheap specials with high BS and easy access to ignore cover in pods...they are extremely deadly.

Riptide wing has many counters, needs marker light support, and is not dominating the tournament scene. Obviously, it should be banned. Both Ravenguard and Skyhammer can assault out of deepstrike. Enough guys will get through to prevent the tides from shooting for most of the game.

 Jancoran wrote:
Plus is there a downside to being a LITTLE patient and firing your missiles into the Riptides for a round before getting down and dirty? 12 STR 8 AP 1 missiles? That will definitely leave a dent and SUBSTANTIALY reduce any remaining Riptides from wanting to change the Nova Reactor or Gets hot.

Well, I can hold reserves pretty well with -1 modifier and a reroll.

If I deploy so close to his units that he can't target my DS elements without hitting his own units -- that would be effective protection too, right?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Plus is there a downside to being a LITTLE patient and firing your missiles into the Riptides for a round before getting down and dirty? 12 STR 8 AP 1 missiles? That will definitely leave a dent and SUBSTANTIALY reduce any remaining Riptides from wanting to change the Nova Reactor or Gets hot.

Well, I can hold reserves pretty well with -1 modifier and a reroll.

If I deploy so close to his units that he can't target my DS elements without hitting his own units -- that would be effective protection too, right?

Maybe. I mean we hope it would be. But remember the Deployment zone types aren't all Dawn of War so the geometry of that could be a problem. As a STRATEGY, I think patience would be the better underlying assumption to make and then on the occasions you are able top execute it othe other way, great. Or as I speask about on my blog from time to time, you want to strengthen your plan B even at the expense of plan A. Why? Because it is astrategically sounder to have a strong B than a weaker B. And a strong A may make not enough difference to matter.

So I think it's valid thinking but any movement at all away from you (assuming they go first which they do 50% of the time) compromises the underlying strategy. Just keep it in mind. I always think strategy first list second and that's my thinking on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:


How many people running gladius at the event with 480 free points and only 1 makes the top 8? The guy got lucky - plain and simple. .

No one gets "lucky" to be in the top 8. Luck isn't what happened. Not germaine to the discussion but I thought I'd reply to this particular snippet just because i cannot fathom anyone thinking that with 250 players involved, luck is going to get it done.

As a Tau player, kill the marker lights then kill riptide at your leisure

 Zeuriel wrote:
As a Tau player, kill the marker lights then kill riptide at your leisure

Marker Lights are key.

Though here's an observation i have made: players are using less Markerlights and relying more on Formation bonus's.

 Jancoran wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Plus is there a downside to being a LITTLE patient and firing your missiles into the Riptides for a round before getting down and dirty? 12 STR 8 AP 1 missiles? That will definitely leave a dent and SUBSTANTIALY reduce any remaining Riptides from wanting to change the Nova Reactor or Gets hot.

Well, I can hold reserves pretty well with -1 modifier and a reroll.

If I deploy so close to his units that he can't target my DS elements without hitting his own units -- that would be effective protection too, right?

Maybe. I mean we hope it would be. But remember the Deployment zone types aren't all Dawn of War so the geometry of that could be a problem. As a STRATEGY, I think patience would be the better underlying assumption to make and then on the occasions you are able top execute it othe other way, great. Or as I speask about on my blog from time to time, you want to strengthen your plan B even at the expense of plan A. Why? Because it is astrategically sounder to have a strong B than a weaker B. And a strong A may make not enough difference to matter.

So I think it's valid thinking but any movement at all away from you (assuming they go first which they do 50% of the time) compromises the underlying strategy. Just keep it in mind. I always think strategy first list second and that's my thinking on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:


How many people running gladius at the event with 480 free points and only 1 makes the top 8? The guy got lucky - plain and simple. .

No one gets "lucky" to be in the top 8. Luck isn't what happened. Not germaine to the discussion but I thought I'd reply to this particular snippet just because i cannot fathom anyone thinking that with 250 players involved, luck is going to get it done.

I think you are misunderstand me. I mentioned the dude is obvious very skilled but gladius is a popular list - it probably showed up more than any other list. Only 1 of them made it to the final 8 and only 1 the final 16 as far as I've seen. It's the player and not the list in this case. When I'm saying luck I am speaking mostly of matchups - objectives - and dice rolls all combined into one. If gladius is OP and that many people are running it - it would be more prevalent in the top placements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DooDoo wrote:
Riptide wing has many counters, needs marker light support, and is not dominating the tournament scene. Obviously, it should be banned. Both Ravenguard and Skyhammer can assault out of deepstrike. Enough guys will get through to prevent the tides from shooting for most of the game.

Ripetide wing is like a direct counter to skyhammer...nice try though.

Is there some discussion needed of the triptide as part of a larger formation? Does it get the benefits of buffmanders and the various cadres?

The debate of OP/not is irrelevant. The formation is in the books and not all events are going to ban it. For those of you who think it's not over the top, what's been done to you/your army to mitigate the strengths of the formation?

Is there an approach that works best when trying to overcome Tau? Mech-SU? Deathstar? Psychic shenanigans? Superfriends? Artillery sniping? Aircav?

I play guard, so I have to spend lots of time thinking about how to deal with MCs. The riptides are up there, let me assure you! Podvets are awesome and can do work, but the invuln + FNP can be hard to get past, never mind the shots to the face I take when disembarking. The thing that keeps working well consistently is beast-hunter vanquisher cannons out of IA:1. ID TL blast 72" re-roll your cover save cannons are the sauce.

I took a mech vet list where I shot 6 ignore cover las cannons and 6 AC/HB chimeras into a riptide and did 2 wounds. Not. Good. What guns scare you? Is it just grav?

Ether wrote:
I play guard, so I have to spend lots of time thinking about how to deal with MCs. The riptides are up there, let me assure you! Podvets are awesome and can do work, but the invuln + FNP can be hard to get past, never mind the shots to the face I take when disembarking. The thing that keeps working well consistently is beast-hunter vanquisher cannons out of IA:1. ID TL blast 72" re-roll your cover save cannons are the sauce.

I took a mech vet list where I shot 6 ignore cover las cannons and 6 AC/HB chimeras into a riptide and did 2 wounds. Not. Good. What guns scare you? Is it just grav?

IG have a few options.

- Instant Death Vanquishers from ABG
- Rending from Pask
- Monster Hunter + Misfortune (50 Lasguns = Dead Riptide)
- Shadowsword (D-blast)
- Enfeeble (Biomancy) and S10 attack
- LD attacks (Astropath Psyker)
- Force Axes (Primaris Psyker), Power Axes
- Vets with Meltabombs in CC
- Sentinels, Bullgryns (more resilient, can tarpit)

Riptides are a bit like Wraiths, Knights, and WKs, they are a lot more expensive to kill than make irrelevant. They also tend to absorb a lot of shooting which could be put to better use elsewhere.

I have played 4 games vs the rip tide wing and to be honest it's hard to formulate a specific strategy. Alot of deepstrike stuff will kill tau (people worry about interceptor to much), i have not tested with pod vets, but if the Tau player decides to use interceptor on riptides, he will not be able to doubletap everything his next shooting phase(the formation bonus, not nova charge), so you can actually lessen their efficiency quite a bit. I'm not to worried podding marines vs riptides, but podvets are very squishy, that might backfire.

It really depends on what the other stuff in the tau list is, intercepting markerlights really changes the list. Without them, Tau really don't want to interceptor so they can maximise synergies in their own turn. (That's what i think atleast i'm not a Tau player)

The riptides while being good can still be ignored, they have good dmg, but it's not amazing. So in a nutshell kill the squishy stuff and if they are out of position or get some unlucky nova charges you can punish them. But deciding 'i'm gonna kill that riptide' first turn does not really work, unless you have a specific counter, like grav cents with gate or in a bunker. IG's mvp units are wyverns\artillery, pask and blobs, stuff that really shines at taking out other units.

Ether wrote:
Is there some discussion needed of the triptide as part of a larger formation? Does it get the benefits of buffmanders and the various cadres?

The debate of OP/not is irrelevant. The formation is in the books and not all events are going to ban it. For those of you who think it's not over the top, what's been done to you/your army to mitigate the strengths of the formation?

Is there an approach that works best when trying to overcome Tau? Mech-SU? Deathstar? Psychic shenanigans? Superfriends? Artillery sniping? Aircav?

I play guard, so I have to spend lots of time thinking about how to deal with MCs. The riptides are up there, let me assure you! Podvets are awesome and can do work, but the invuln + FNP can be hard to get past, never mind the shots to the face I take when disembarking. The thing that keeps working well consistently is beast-hunter vanquisher cannons out of IA:1. ID TL blast 72" re-roll your cover save cannons are the sauce.

I took a mech vet list where I shot 6 ignore cover las cannons and 6 AC/HB chimeras into a riptide and did 2 wounds. Not. Good. What guns scare you? Is it just grav?

I have said clearly how I would attack Tau Empire and I say it as one who actually plays the army. its my jam. I love the Tau Empire and have played it since day one.

Attack their leadership.

Attack them in melee.

I'll add a couple more things to the list:

Stop trying to out shoot them. When someone is THIS weak in melee, why would you ever do anything but pound them into the dust with your bare fists? It works marvelously well. Do it.

Make use of multi-charges. The Overwatch thing can be somewhat mitigated by simply swarming them and multicharging with a less important unit you brought along for the task. Excellent choices: banshees, Nurgle Raptors, and any unit that can spread itself out a bit and be large in number and spread.


As a Tau General, fast assault armies are a real problem. Good use of terrain and other special rules can make my shooting far better than yours will be. So do not try to compete with me this way. It isn't that you'll never win. It's that you're taking an entirely unnecessary chance trying to.

Maelstrom already makes speed important to you. So anyone playing in any missions that involve Maelstrom Objectives should ALREADY have figured out that having a high speed hammer or two is en vogue again. It used to bbe the rule, not hte exception and now its become the exception, not the rule.

For example: though unpopular i won two tournaments in a row when the Adepta Sororitas "Codex" dropped, using an army made of one of every unit. literally did it just to test it out and ended up winning both. Insanely unoptimized list but the glorious MVP's were none other than the Battle Conclave and YES the Sisters Repentia. Both were key to the wins, oddly enough. having two hammers in rhinos that can rush up and say hello is a very good idea.
Blood Angels have this in spades of course as do Dark eldar and many armies that wish to include the utility of it. They just choose not to a lot.

I'm telling you, the Tau Empire has absolutely zero interest in melee. Our BEST shot at melee are Ghostkeels and then only in units of 3. But sure. that unit will wreck someone if you're not careful. But then it's almost 400 points for nothing even remotely as good as Terminators bring to the table so... In the end.... Even that is kind of a failure point for point.

think about your list and ask yourself how long its been since you invested in a fast melee oriented thing like Spawn, Beats Pack, Outflanking Snaalneshi Daemons, Raptors or some other fast punchy unit? Not just podding in to shoot things. Actually getting down and dirty with a unit?

Hell when was the last time people fielded ten man Tactical Marines AS ten man Tactical Marines? Lol. I can count on one hand how many times I've see nit down in the last year. People combat squad almost every time.

So it should come as no big shock when the FIVE Marines pour out, fire their coolness off and get annihilated for little gain! I mean I'd be frustrated too if that was my only plan for Riptides.

Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

Xenomancers 677751 8448141 5dd4a6247aedba924868 wrote:
I think you are misunderstand me. I mentioned the dude is obvious very skilled but gladius is a popular list - it probably showed up more than any other list. Only 1 of them made it to the final 8 and only 1 the final 16 as far as I've seen. It's the player and not the list in this case. When I'm saying luck I am speaking mostly of matchups - objectives - and dice rolls all combined into one. If gladius is OP and that many people are running it - it would be more prevalent in the top placements.

Think so? I don't know about that. Here again i would repeat my admonishment: skill is the thing. Not the Codex. Not the list. battle Companies will be a mismatch for some armies, but skill will overcome it. I think its probably more true that the players boasting Battle Companies hoped their list would do their fighting for them and it may well have in a matchup here or there. who knows. But i am unwilling to discount the skills of the Battle Company opponents. It is just as likely that those opponents (who obviously DID end up in the top 8) were just better Generals.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

Really? "frustratingly good" lol?

They are WS2 / I2 / A3 / S6

That is pretty terrible. They will be hitting on 5s against almost everybody and they will almost alway be hitting second. That is an average of one HIT per round lol

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

Really? "frustratingly good" lol?

They are WS2 / I2 / A3 / S6

That is pretty terrible. They will be hitting on 5s against almost everybody and they will almost alway be hitting second. That is an average of one HIT per round lol

They hit WS 4 on "4"s. That's all they really need. The init doesn't matter, because they never die, so they WILL get to attack. They ignore all armor, so units like sanguinary guard actually lose out big time against them. And, they can generate a S10 attack in a pinch. Coming from someone with no MCs at all in their list, this seems quite good to me.

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

Really? "frustratingly good" lol?

They are WS2 / I2 / A3 / S6

That is pretty terrible. They will be hitting on 5s against almost everybody and they will almost alway be hitting second. That is an average of one HIT per round lol

They hit WS 4 on "4"s. That's all they really need. The init doesn't matter, because they never die, so they WILL get to attack. They ignore all armor, so units like sanguinary guard actually lose out big time against them. And, they can generate a S10 attack in a pinch. Coming from someone with no MCs at all in their list, this seems quite good to me.

If you think that is good I don't know what to tell you. You may just be bad at the game. You will on average kill 1 single model per turn in CC, and thats not counting if they have an invulnerable save

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

Really? "frustratingly good" lol?

They are WS2 / I2 / A3 / S6

That is pretty terrible. They will be hitting on 5s against almost everybody and they will almost alway be hitting second. That is an average of one HIT per round lol

They hit WS 4 on "4"s. That's all they really need. The init doesn't matter, because they never die, so they WILL get to attack. They ignore all armor, so units like sanguinary guard actually lose out big time against them. And, they can generate a S10 attack in a pinch. Coming from someone with no MCs at all in their list, this seems quite good to me.

If you think that is good I don't know what to tell you. You may just be bad at the game. You will on average kill 1 single model per turn in CC, and thats not counting if they have an invulnerable save

That's a lot of fights won 1-0. The enemy might break, allowed the Riptide to pie plate them on its next turn. It will certainly beat a space marine tac squad or regular ASM squad 1-0. You can't clear wounds with krak grenades or power swords. Wasn't CC supposed to be this thing's weakness? But it isn't. Because MC USR. Realize that a single Riptide swing is work six regular swings against 2+ armor, for example. Yes, that's good.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

You need to employ more imagination my friend. A lot more. Tactically speaking, there is no pain free way to approach a Riptide Wing. Casualties WILL happen. You need to get used to that idea. Casualties are acceptable if the end result is met. So at some point you need to get over the removal of some little plastic men and accept that the other guy paid points for his things too. And he is going to kill you if he can. And he can.

So the real issue here isn't whether he will kill a bunch of stuff. You can't control it nor stop it. It's whether he will win. That is something you can control.

Perhaps a battle report would help?

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

Really? "frustratingly good" lol?

They are WS2 / I2 / A3 / S6

That is pretty terrible. They will be hitting on 5s against almost everybody and they will almost alway be hitting second. That is an average of one HIT per round lol

They hit WS 4 on "4"s. That's all they really need. The init doesn't matter, because they never die, so they WILL get to attack. They ignore all armor, so units like sanguinary guard actually lose out big time against them. And, they can generate a S10 attack in a pinch. Coming from someone with no MCs at all in their list, this seems quite good to me.

If you think that is good I don't know what to tell you. You may just be bad at the game. You will on average kill 1 single model per turn in CC, and thats not counting if they have an invulnerable save

That's a lot of fights won 1-0. The enemy might break, allowed the Riptide to pie plate them on its next turn. It will certainly beat a space marine tac squad or regular ASM squad 1-0. You can't clear wounds with krak grenades or power swords. Wasn't CC supposed to be this thing's weakness? But it isn't. Because MC USR. Realize that a single Riptide swing is work six regular swings against 2+ armor, for example. Yes, that's good.

You should at least arm the sarge with melta bomb. Ripetide is not a character, so sarge won't get challenged out.

Melta bomb makes it 0-0. and you have more attacks. So...

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are frustratingly good at CC. MC USR and all that.

" Actually getting down and dirty with a unit? "

You mean like MSU DC? That get targeted and removed almost immediately?

People don't use tac marines in 10s because they are awful.

You need to employ more imagination my friend. A lot more. Tactically speaking, there is no pain free way to approach a Riptide Wing. Casualties WILL happen. You need to get used to that idea. Casualties are acceptable if the end result is met. So at some point you need to get over the removal of some little plastic men and accept that the other guy paid points for his things too. And he is going to kill you if he can. And he can.

So the real issue here isn't whether he will kill a bunch of stuff. You can't control it nor stop it. It's whether he will win. That is something you can control.

Perhaps a battle report would help?

You don't think a BA player is used to taking horrific casualties? BA have been one of the most meat-grinder chapters for a long, long time. It's just never been remotely this bad before. Except in 2nd. 2nd was a damn holocaust.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Melta bomb makes it 0-0. and you have more attacks. So...

Melta bomb is a single attack against which it gets at least a +++ and probably 5++/5+++ if not 3++/5+++.

Martel732 wrote:

You don't think a BA player is used to taking horrific casualties? BA have been one of the most meat-grinder chapters for a long, long time. It's just never been remotely this bad before. Except in 2nd. 2nd was a damn holocaust.

No one cares.

I hope you understand those three words clearly. No one.

Having said that: Even thoug hwe DON'T care what 2E-7E was "like", what I DO care about is that you're missing the point. My point was... that.... as much as you may not like the "holocaust" you may face against a Riptide Wing, the wins and losses at the end is all the matters.

All..that...matters.

So. since I don't clearly give a rip about the history of your chapter and I obviously dont give a rip about Space Marines in general and almost never play them, what i want you to understand in all this is that if you ACTUALLY want an answer to the question of Riptides and aren't just using this as another forum to complain about Blood angels... then i am telling you what to do to defeat them.

and if you wont take the word of someone with my track record, you wont take anyone's. In which case... why are we talking here? i want to help you. i am trying to help you. and all I'm getting is "Wowa is me". Is that progressing the discussion at all? Is it?

So stop. Digest what i am saying. Actually get your toys out, put them on an actual board and get some coke bottles or whatever, name them Riptides and practice what i am telling you. Show me you even tried to understand and I will be more soft hearted. But i just am not excited about the constant "Wowa is me" responses. They do nothing but convince me that no amount of advice will ever stop the flow of them.

Only dedicated melee units with the right tools can quickly solo a tide not counting on using a multi assault.

T6
6W
2+/3++/5+++

I care. I hope you understand those two words, I also really hope that you stop your L2P stuff, it's getting old. "Just melee it" is insane advice when we're talking about a model that starts across the board from you and moves an average of 13" per turn while deleting units, all the while being so ridiculously resilient that you might not even scratch it even if you somehow make it to combat.

He admittedly loves Tau so there is an obvious bias imo .

Eldar, Necrons and Imperial Knights have a decent chance against Riptide Wing armies. But one needs to reconcile with the fact that some armies just won't be able to cope with it.

D thirster is a good answer to tides, 9 D weapons attacks in charge could be enough to roll just 1 six in D table and detonate a Tide, yesterday i killed 2 that way, one each turn.

blackmage wrote:
D thirster is a good answer to tides, 9 D weapons attacks in charge could be enough to roll just 1 six in D table and detonate a Tide, yesterday i killed 2 that way, one each turn.

That I will agree with.

How is Dante versus a Riptide?

Yoyoyo wrote:
How is Dante versus a Riptide?

He'll kill it. Eventually. During which time, the rest of Tau has shot me to little tiny pieces. If it gets the Nova 3++ off, he has virtually no chance of killing it in a reasonable amount of time. Dante is much better against Tyranid MCs other meq assault units.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Only dedicated melee units with the right tools can quickly solo a tide not counting on using a multi assault.

T6
6W
2+/3++/5+++

Well... the 3+ save is no given and can end up costing you wounds, so lets not understate that. and its likely to get used BEFORE the melee meaning that there won't be as many wounds (probably). If they never use theNova for that all the better.

There are a lot of rending and AP 2 weapons, Meltya bombs are plentiful in armies (well...they are here) and you only have to win by one. One. So.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

"Just melee it" is insane advice when we're talking about a model that starts across the board from you and moves an average of 13" per turn while deleting units, .

Its insane if you have no mobility.

What do you suppose you should do about that?

 Jancoran wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Only dedicated melee units with the right tools can quickly solo a tide not counting on using a multi assault.

T6
6W
2+/3++/5+++

Well... the 3+ save is no given and can end up costing you wounds, so lets not understate that. and its likely to get used BEFORE the melee meaning that there won't be as many wounds (probably). If they never use theNova for that all the better.

There are a lot of rending and AP 2 weapons, Meltya bombs are plentiful in armies (well...they are here) and you only have to win by one. One. So.

Winning by one is a lot harder against this thing than you make it sound. In fact, in army swaps, I'd shoot DC and then assault them with Riptides and kill them all. (5 man squads)

 Dozer Blades wrote:
He admittedly loves Tau so there is an obvious bias imo .

I dont love having my Tau lose. So i am telling him how to make me lose. This is good advice from a reliable source on the matter. You seem to think the Riptide is in the same melee league as other things its size. Thats not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
How is Dante versus a Riptide?

He'll kill it. Eventually. During which time, the rest of Tau has shot me to little tiny pieces. If it gets the Nova 3++ off, he has virtually no chance of killing it in a reasonable amount of time. Dante is much better against Tyranid MCs other meq assault units.

Dante is a beast. he should be in a lot of lists.

Dante is not a beast. You are very delusional there. He's situationally good, as I described in my Dante thread. He's good at beating up units that are already borderline overcosted, but against the good stuff, he's not so hot. He's 50 pts less than a WK, and can't hold WK's jock strap.

Martel732 wrote:
Dante is not a beast. You are very delusional there.

uh...sure.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dante is not a beast. You are very delusional there.

uh...sure.

I know you think you know better, but with BA I don't think you do. What exactly is so beast about Dante?

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dante is not a beast. You are very delusional there.

uh...sure.

I know you think you know better, but with BA I don't think you do. What exactly is so beast about Dante?

I know everything you know about Dante. We're reading the same book. Ive been on the receiving end plenty of times. He is quite good.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Only dedicated melee units with the right tools can quickly solo a tide not counting on using a multi assault.

T6
6W
2+/3++/5+++

First off, riptide has 5 wounds
Second, you are just assauming that A) nova charge went off and B) they choose the 3++ and C) They took sim injectors

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dante is not a beast. You are very delusional there.

uh...sure.

I know you think you know better, but with BA I don't think you do. What exactly is so beast about Dante?

I know everything you know about Dante. We're reading the same book. Ive been on the receiving end plenty of times. He is quite good.

No, he's okay. Against lists that I can probably already come out 50/50 against. Maybe you made mistakes and let him cause more damage than he should have. He's not that great. He's pretty easy to dakka off the table as he's only T4, as is any retinue he's got with him.

The only way I've found to kill riptides is to hope they jump out of position so they can't get supporting fire overwatch, then melee with a really strong melee unit, and hope it gets swept. Any other way is highly unreliable.
Getting into melee with one that doesn't get out of position? You squad dies to overwatch from half the damn army.
Try to shoot it with plasma/grav? it has FNP, and potentially a 3++
A riptide will kill a squad a turn easily with markerlight support. Killing the markerlights isn't the easiest thing either since they can sit with the gunline and have an army help with overwatch if you try and assault

generally, I find Tau to be the least fun army to play against because of stuff like this

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
The only way I've found to kill riptides is to hope they jump out of position so they can't get supporting fire overwatch, then melee with a really strong melee unit, and hope it gets swept. Any other way is highly unreliable.
Getting into melee with one that doesn't get out of position? You squad dies to overwatch from half the damn army.
Try to shoot it with plasma/grav? it has FNP, and potentially a 3++
A riptide will kill a squad a turn easily with markerlight support. Killing the markerlights isn't the easiest thing either since they can sit with the gunline and have an army help with overwatch if you try and assault

generally, I find Tau to be the least fun army to play against because of stuff like this

I agree this optimal, but it's very hard to pull off as you point out.

I've played the riptide wing quite extensively for the last month or two and I have only lost all three in one game...


Against Eldar.

He caught one in combat with karandas, and he used a combo of horrify and terrify to scare the other two away. Bad, bad game for me...

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I've played the riptide wing quite extensively for the last month or two and I have only lost all three in one game...


Against Eldar.

He caught one in combat with karandas, and he used a combo of horrify and terrify to scare the other two away. Bad, bad game for me...

A theme emerges...so what you're saying is... and i want to be sure Martel here's this... A combination of morale and/or melee attacks did the job? Is that what's being said?

Martel? Are you getting this? Lol.

But seriously... Do this.

 Jancoran wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I've played the riptide wing quite extensively for the last month or two and I have only lost all three in one game...


Against Eldar.

He caught one in combat with karandas, and he used a combo of horrify and terrify to scare the other two away. Bad, bad game for me...

A theme emerges...so what you're saying is... and i want to be sure Martel here's this... A combination of morale and/or melee attacks did the job? Is that what's being said?

Martel? Are you getting this? Lol.

But seriously... Do this.

Many armies lack the way to both get negative LD modifiers on the riptide and have hard hitting melee units survive to actually getting into combat with it. Just because Eldar can do something doesn't mean other armies can do it easily

 Jancoran wrote:

Its insane if you have no mobility.

What do you suppose you should do about that?

"Buy a new army" is even more insane than "just melee it".

Last time I played Tau I actually had a great solution: Warhound Titan to the Riptide's face. Titans have a tendency to make people a tad annoyed though, because they're too good, like a certain other unit...

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
Many armies lack the way to both get negative LD modifiers on the riptide and have hard hitting melee units survive to actually getting into combat with it. Just because Eldar can do something doesn't mean other armies can do it easily

True. GW is quite obviously introducing both extreme durability alongside new counters, but the 7.0 armies are behind the curve. DA got Interromancy, Harlequins got Phantasmancy, SM got a formation that applies a -2LD debuff, Daemons have several new powers and an amazing relic, D-strength weapons have become more common than S10, charge from Deepstrke and null deployments are more common, Stealth/Shrouded and Ignores Cover mechanics are everywhere... you get the idea. For a company that claims models trump everything else they have been very busy in radically changing how 40k plays.

Allies have been a part of the 7.5th design, though. Ever hear of a LotD relic called the Animus Malorum? Any time a unit fails a standard LD check within 12", a model is removed. So BA character with the -2LD Crown Angelic could just charge a Riptide, and 42% of the time it's just leaving the table before anyone even swings. Also good synergy with Fear of the Darkness (-2LD Morale test). Even Tank Shocking with negative modifiers will even do it!

BA are overdue to be brought into 7th, that's the bottom line. Playing without a single ally (even a LotD squad -- fluffy) is going to be difficult.

I used to be a riptide hater then I realised how to beat them kill their markerlights

About a week ago there was the 750pt school league my first opponent of the day: Tau (in fact that was my only opponent for all 3 games all trying to use hunter cadres and stuff)

My first opponent had

darkstride
some budget troops (min squads)
a stormsurge
a riptide
rest filled with pathfinders

did he win? Nope

admittedly I was bringing an imperial knight but only after hearing there would be decurions WK etc etc
turn 1 all his pathfinders were dead his turn he killed nothing not even my scouts all because the riptide and stormsurge kept missing
In fact all 3 of my games had overcharging riptides/ ghostkeels did any of them win? No because all their markerlights were dead

 Jancoran wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I've played the riptide wing quite extensively for the last month or two and I have only lost all three in one game...


Against Eldar.

He caught one in combat with karandas, and he used a combo of horrify and terrify to scare the other two away. Bad, bad game for me...

A theme emerges...so what you're saying is... and i want to be sure Martel here's this... A combination of morale and/or melee attacks did the job? Is that what's being said?

Martel? Are you getting this? Lol.

But seriously... Do this.

I have to have models left on the table to do this. That's my entire point. You and I have very different assessments of the lethality of the Tau list. Just as we have different assessment's of Dante's beastliness.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Its insane if you have no mobility.

What do you suppose you should do about that?

"Buy a new army" is even more insane than "just melee it".

Last time I played Tau I actually had a great solution: Warhound Titan to the Riptide's face. Titans have a tendency to make people a tad annoyed though, because they're too good, like a certain other unit...

No one said to get a new army. But yeah. You might have to update one.

If you dont want to melee it, pay the price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I've played the riptide wing quite extensively for the last month or two and I have only lost all three in one game...


Against Eldar.

He caught one in combat with karandas, and he used a combo of horrify and terrify to scare the other two away. Bad, bad game for me...

A theme emerges...so what you're saying is... and i want to be sure Martel here's this... A combination of morale and/or melee attacks did the job? Is that what's being said?

Martel? Are you getting this? Lol.

But seriously... Do this.

I have to have models left on the table to do this. That's my entire point. You and I have very different assessments of the lethality of the Tau list. Just as we have different assessment's of Dante's beastliness.

Situation is King. Do what Situation demands. Or perish. Those are the choices. Riptides need you to smash their noses in or drive them off with LD atacks unless you can musted the AP 2 to kill them outright though if you do, it hardly seems there would be reason for this much angst.
every army can do this so... Good luck.

"If you dont want to melee it, pay the price."

I really think we are talking past each other. I WANT to do this very badly.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you dont want to melee it, pay the price."

I really think we are talking past each other. I WANT to do this very badly.

Cool. Then make the list do that. You have the Triple Raven Formation to help you. You have the tools i mentioned before. You have the Technology to make this happen.

Good luck. Do a battle report on your next game when you face Riptides again.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you dont want to melee it, pay the price."

I really think we are talking past each other. I WANT to do this very badly.

Really you dont. You've been given suggestions that work and constantly shoot them down. You have been psychologically beaten by any opponent with a Riptide before you even sit down.

Riptides, WKs, CMs with Shield Eternals. Each one takes a different way to handle it, but you have to be willing to listen and try.

Fragile wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"If you dont want to melee it, pay the price."

I really think we are talking past each other. I WANT to do this very badly.

Really you dont. You've been given suggestions that work and constantly shoot them down. You have been psychologically beaten by any opponent with a Riptide before you even sit down.

Riptides, WKs, CMs with Shield Eternals. Each one takes a different way to handle it, but you have to be willing to listen and try.

Most suggestions have been tailored suggestions. I can't list tailor. I think I'm going to try more storm shields as a base line test, as small arms are really out of favor in my play group.

The psychological problems have come from all the tablings. I can't engage in melee with zero models left. Tau can do this with frightening efficiency.

No. You SAY they are list tailoring so you can find an excuse not to do it. That's closer to the mark.

The reality is... You know for a fact Tau are going to show up as you know Eldar will. And if they dont, bonus. But you NEED to plan for them. Foolishly claiming you "shouldn't" plan for them for some reason? Not really flying with me.

So stop looking for reasons NOT to do these things and instead...do them.

What have you actually got to lose? Losing a game with little soldiers is hardly a heart break...but winning one can be cause for exultation. I suspect you could use more of the latter. And you've made plain that what you're doing NOW doesn't work so i would not bother referencing those failures as reasons to do or not do anything. Time for a fresh perspective, methinks.

Martel732 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"If you dont want to melee it, pay the price."

I really think we are talking past each other. I WANT to do this very badly.

Really you dont. You've been given suggestions that work and constantly shoot them down. You have been psychologically beaten by any opponent with a Riptide before you even sit down.

Riptides, WKs, CMs with Shield Eternals. Each one takes a different way to handle it, but you have to be willing to listen and try.

Most suggestions have been tailored suggestions. I can't list tailor. I think I'm going to try more storm shields as a base line test, as small arms are really out of favor in my play group.

The psychological problems have come from all the tablings. I can't engage in melee with zero models left. Tau can do this with frightening efficiency.

A CM with a bike and SS, leading a grav bike squad will give the Riptides more than enough to worry about. They are also a take all comers option as they have no real weaknesses. That is hardly list tailoring.

In all this, its seems like your looking for a painless, one shot kill type of an answer. That really doesnt happen often. The Riptide will do damage, but even a tac squad can handle one with a hidden powerfist.

All of these suggestions you're going to have to put together and try to find a strat that works.