Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
most poison weapons tend not to have have great ap or have a low rate of fire. Between the riptides armor, invul, fnp and amount of wounds poison isn't a great option.

You'd figure that with as much shooting as tau players get to do, they wouldn't need this spelled out.

Martel732 wrote:
Better than anything in my list.

You're running a MEQ assault army.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Um how are they immune to "every poison weapon in the game"?

Cant catch a riptide? They move 6 inches and have a random jetpack move

Really? I can think of plenty of rapid fire and other AP2 weapons that can tear through riptides.

Lol at someone saying grav cents are too expensive for what they do. Riptides are all about tanking damage, not actually dishing it out. So the same number of points of other models SHOULDN'T be able to kill a riptide in one turn

WoW...Large blast AP2 weapon doesn't dish it out? LOL. It's like a vidicator with 72 inch range - I think it's damage is okay.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Better than anything in my list.

You're running a MEQ assault army.

With access to most vanilla units. You'd think there would a single unit somewhere that can keep up with an ia. Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Um how are they immune to "every poison weapon in the game"?

Cant catch a riptide? They move 6 inches and have a random jetpack move

Really? I can think of plenty of rapid fire and other AP2 weapons that can tear through riptides.

Lol at someone saying grav cents are too expensive for what they do. Riptides are all about tanking damage, not actually dishing it out. So the same number of points of other models SHOULDN'T be able to kill a riptide in one turn

WoW...Large blast AP2 weapon doesn't dish it out? LOL. It's like a vidicator with 72 inch range - I think it's damage is okay.

An immortal vindicator. That beats most marine units in hth because of mc usr. Feth mcs.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides don't dish damage? Spoken like a true tau player. The riptide is one of the most unfair things in the but its aokay because it's in your list, huh?

The nova reactor thing is such a joke. Oh look! I took a single wound after melting your entire list! It's such a limitation!

Every game I've played, the 1-3 Riptides I was facing dealt usually 1-2 of their own wounds to themselves. How is that a joke?

Also, first time I fought Tau was against Triptide with an Aegis line, using a very casual list of 5th edition Necrons. I lost, but mainly because of where the objectives were placed and because of overall score at the end. The Riptides themselves did not do most of the damage to my army. You are highly over-reacting.

Yo bro, you over-reacting, while I'm Nova-reacting.

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Better than anything in my list.

You're running a MEQ assault army.

With access to most vanilla units. You'd think there would a single unit somewhere that can keep up with an ia. Nope.

Mephistopheles? From a storm raven? Maybe?

 Xenomancers wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no efficient way to kill riptides that isn't d weapons. The answer is - take D weapons. Force is another good way to kill them but it requires you take a lot dreadknights . Even grav cannons struggle against riptides. Because at 5 wounds with a 4+cover and a 5+ FNP you have to wound the thing like 14 times before you kill it. A Centurian squad that puts that kind of hurt down needs a drop pod and costs way more than a riptide.

To really counter this list I think you need to bring like. 3 IK with no guns - just the Dweapon and claw. The rest take Dreadknights with no guns and force sword upgrade and personal teleporter. You should probably kill them with about 50% of your units left over.

Another thing you can do is take a ton of hemlock wraith fighters and just spam PS.

Lets see here:
Poison
Morale Tests
Force Weapons
D
Grav
AP2
Melee (either directly killing or tying up in combat)

Any of those will wreck riptides

Riptides are fuctionally immune to every poison weapon in the game.
You can't catch a riptide, even with bikers or jump troops so they are functionally immune to melee.
Most ap 2 weapons have a pitiful rate of fire, so the riptide doesn't care about those, either.
Standard grav platforms like bikers will get nuked off the table by ignore cover ias before they can fire.
Drop grav cents are too expensive to effectively counter the riptide.
Force weapon wielders likewise can't catch the riptide to assault it.

The only reliable method is ranged D.

Um how are they immune to "every poison weapon in the game"?

Cant catch a riptide? They move 6 inches and have a random jetpack move

Really? I can think of plenty of rapid fire and other AP2 weapons that can tear through riptides.

Lol at someone saying grav cents are too expensive for what they do. Riptides are all about tanking damage, not actually dishing it out. So the same number of points of other models SHOULDN'T be able to kill a riptide in one turn

WoW...Large blast AP2 weapon doesn't dish it out? LOL. It's like a vidicator with 72 inch range - I think it's damage is okay.

Without Marker light support it ISNT that great. For a 225 point model, you first have to pass a gets hot or do nothing that turn and take a wound. Then you have BS3. The armies that have done best against me/beat me are the ones who ignored my 2 riptides completely

notredameguy10 wrote:
The armies that have done best against me/beat me are the ones who ignored my 2 riptides completely

Literally quoted for truth.

They have no choice because they can't be killed. Super fair, let me telll you.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides don't dish damage? Spoken like a true tau player. The riptide is one of the most unfair things in the but its aokay because it's in your list, huh?

The nova reactor thing is such a joke. Oh look! I took a single wound after melting your entire list! It's such a limitation!

Every game I've played, the 1-3 Riptides I was facing dealt usually 1-2 of their own wounds to themselves. How is that a joke?

Also, first time I fought Tau was against Triptide with an Aegis line, using a very casual list of 5th edition Necrons. I lost, but mainly because of where the objectives were placed and because of overall score at the end. The Riptides themselves did not do most of the damage to my army. You are highly over-reacting.

Yo bro, you over-reacting, while I'm Nova-reacting.

The average 1 in a 5 turn game. You don't need to nova every turn ether - sometimes 3 str 7 shots is fine. Sometimes theres nothing left to shoot at. In game terms - if you aren't getting into CC with D or force weapons - riptides are almost always a waste of firepower to shoot at. They are great at 1 shotting entire quality squads too. Oh they have a fussion blaster too - how nice.

Martel732 wrote:
They have no choice because they can't be killed. Super fair, let me telll you.

As fair as Wraiths. As fair as Smashfether with a command squad on bikes. As fair as Invisible <insert title here>-star.

 krodarklorr wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
The armies that have done best against me/beat me are the ones who ignored my 2 riptides completely

Literally quoted for truth.

Thats what you have to do to beat them - accept the fact that you are going to have 2 or more str 8 ap2 large blast on your best squad every turn and try to out damage them - somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They have no choice because they can't be killed. Super fair, let me telll you.

As fair as Wraiths. As fair as Smashfether with a command squad on bikes. As fair as Invisible <insert title here>-star.

Now lets see who is tar-pitting who.

The IA is a little bit nuts. If you use that, the nova reactor is never really a factor because with the IA, you don't need to use it, and can sit back and annihilate MEQ squads - well, provided that scatter doesn't screw you over.

(Tell you what: next time a player shows up with one of those, tell them you won't play them unless they accept a 650-point handicap, and beat them senseless with a tarnished brass herring if they don't agree. I'll provide the fish.)

its pretty damn easy to catch a riptide in melee.

They move 6 + 2D6 each turn and have a massive base. They run into other units or terrain and unless they rolled REALLY high they cant clear it, so they get caught by the biker/jumper units pretty swift. Unless i put things between my suits and said biker/jumper unit, they always get the assault because average dice i moved as far as you did before charge distances are factored in.
Often i roll ~8" on the 2d6 and can only use 4 of it or less because i cant clear the other unit thats in the way or i cant clear the impassible terrain. The massive base really hinders jetpack movements, and every time ive tried to use the 4d6 i roll 4 1s or something dumb like that lol

I never said riptides cant dish out damage, i said they arent able to RELIABLY dish out damage without marker support. 1/6 of the time they do jack squat even without Nova tests, and BS3 can still miss a large blast pretty bad. Happens to me all the damn time.

MCs are not immune to sweeping, which makes no sense to me (not even saying that because i hate sweeping advance in any form from any army against any army). You cause a singular wound to my riptide, my 3 attacks hitting your melee based unit on 5s all miss or you invul the one that went through, i now fail the init test with my init2 and you swept something 3x your size somehow. Happens with ghostkeels tool.

Riptides are not the only non-fearless MC. Ghostkeels, Riptides, Dreadknights, and non-synapse Tyranid MCs are not fearless. Dreadknights are ATSKNF, not fearless. Really all that means is they can be pinned though, since MCs cannot "voluntarily" goto ground but pinning isnt a voluntary action. Pissed off a couple GK players with that in the past lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Riptides are not the only non-fearless MC. Ghostkeels, Riptides, Dreadknights, and non-synapse Tyranid MCs are not fearless. Dreadknights are ATSKNF, not fearless. Really all that means is they can be pinned though, since MCs cannot "voluntarily" goto ground but pinning isnt a voluntary action. Pissed off a couple GK players with that in the past lol

I forgot about the Ghostkeel, as it's new. But ATSKNF is better than Fearless, and all non-synapse Tyranid MCs are Fearless, actually.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
its pretty damn easy to catch a riptide in melee.

They move 6 + 2D6 each turn and have a massive base. They run into other units or terrain and unless they rolled REALLY high they cant clear it, so they get caught by the biker/jumper units pretty swift. Unless i put things between my suits and said biker/jumper unit, they always get the assault because average dice i moved as far as you did before charge distances are factored in.
Often i roll ~8" on the 2d6 and can only use 4 of it or less because i cant clear the other unit thats in the way or i cant clear the impassible terrain. The massive base really hinders jetpack movements, and every time ive tried to use the 4d6 i roll 4 1s or something dumb like that lol

I never said riptides cant dish out damage, i said they arent able to RELIABLY dish out damage without marker support. 1/6 of the time they do jack squat even without Nova tests, and BS3 can still miss a large blast pretty bad. Happens to me all the damn time.

MCs are not immune to sweeping, which makes no sense to me (not even saying that because i hate sweeping advance in any form from any army against any army). You cause a singular wound to my riptide, my 3 attacks hitting your melee based unit on 5s all miss or you invul the one that went through, i now fail the init test with my init2 and you swept something 3x your size somehow. Happens with ghostkeels tool.

Riptides are not the only non-fearless MC. Ghostkeels, Riptides, Dreadknights, and non-synapse Tyranid MCs are not fearless. Dreadknights are ATSKNF, not fearless. Really all that means is they can be pinned though, since MCs cannot "voluntarily" goto ground but pinning isnt a voluntary action. Pissed off a couple GK players with that in the past lol

You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

An ASM squad could catch a Riptide, in theory.

Let's say they get there wholly intact, even after Overwatch.

They then attack:
Per attack, that's (2/3)(1/6)(1/6), or 2/108 attacks.

A 10-man ASM on the charge gets 3A per model, or 30 attacks.
That works out to 60/108 wounds, or just south of an EV of 0.6

(Note - Krak grenades wound 3x as often, but have 1/3 the attacks - so same number).

Now the Riptide hits back.
(1/3)(5/6)(1), or 5/18 wounds per attack. How many A does a Riptide have? If its even 2, it wins against a 10man ASM squad that gets the charge. Even if its only 1, it could still, on average, win against a 10-man ASM squad by charging it.

That's what pisses off Marine players. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty doesn't work when the shooty outchops you *without shooting*.

In a fun side note, BA actually have better numbers here than other Marines.

Contrast this with how a Hammerhead, Pred, or Falcon handles being assaulted...

Martel732 wrote:
You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

You should seriously consider playing with a list that can reserve your entire army as well as adding a fortification that can block LOS, if you play on planet bowling ball.

With a Damocles Rhino and Kaarlen you can bring in your reserves on a rerollable 2+, there has got to be a way for you to get a decent T2 alpha strike. Or at least evade a solid 1-2 turns of shooting.

No, that was for ASMs in general. Only BAs get FC, but they aren't the only ones to complain about Riptides.

BA ASM would do 4/108, or 1/27, wound/attack, which would be an EV of a little over 1. So if a full 10man ASM squad could get in with a Riptide, they are likely to win or tie combat (EV is still less that 1 more wound than the Riptide).

They aren't as bad off as other ASM, but that's still a tall order, and they go down to 0.6 wounds per 10 ASM on subsequent rounds (Krak does better than 2x CCW).

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

You should seriously consider playing with a list that can reserve your entire army as well as adding a fortification that can block LOS, if you play on planet bowling ball.

With a Damocles Rhino and Kaarlen you can bring in your reserves on a rerollable 2+, there has got to be a way for you to get a decent T2 alpha strike. Or at least evade a solid 1-2 turns of shooting.

Maybe. But they can cause catastrophic damage with only 2 or 3 turns of shooting. Reserving only delays the inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
An ASM squad could catch a Riptide, in theory.

Let's say they get there wholly intact, even after Overwatch.

They then attack:
Per attack, that's (2/3)(1/6)(1/6), or 2/108 attacks.

A 10-man ASM on the charge gets 3A per model, or 30 attacks.
That works out to 60/108 wounds, or just south of an EV of 0.6

(Note - Krak grenades wound 3x as often, but have 1/3 the attacks - so same number).

Now the Riptide hits back.
(1/3)(5/6)(1), or 5/18 wounds per attack. How many A does a Riptide have? If its even 2, it wins against a 10man ASM squad that gets the charge. Even if its only 1, it could still, on average, win against a 10-man ASM squad by charging it.

That's what pisses off Marine players. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty doesn't work when the shooty outchops you *without shooting*.

In a fun side note, BA actually have better numbers here than other Marines.

Contrast this with how a Hammerhead, Pred, or Falcon handles being assaulted...

And it's all because the Riptide is too durable for its cost.

Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

I stopped running mine with IAs specifically because faceroll wins aren't fun to me. When I run 'em with HBC, they do a lot of damage, but usually wind up dying. Eldar kill them stone-dead, as do Necrons usually, and even DE give them a pretty good thrashing up that close. Marines usually wind up tarpitting them or using grav, and Tyranids go straight for the tarpit. (And Tyranid MCs fare OK in melee, since they have S6 AP2 at better WS and I...)

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You also have to have something left in your list to catch them with.

You should seriously consider playing with a list that can reserve your entire army as well as adding a fortification that can block LOS, if you play on planet bowling ball.

With a Damocles Rhino and Kaarlen you can bring in your reserves on a rerollable 2+, there has got to be a way for you to get a decent T2 alpha strike. Or at least evade a solid 1-2 turns of shooting.

Maybe. But they can cause catastrophic damage with only 2 or 3 turns of shooting. Reserving only delays the inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
An ASM squad could catch a Riptide, in theory.

Let's say they get there wholly intact, even after Overwatch.

They then attack:
Per attack, that's (2/3)(1/6)(1/6), or 2/108 attacks.

A 10-man ASM on the charge gets 3A per model, or 30 attacks.
That works out to 60/108 wounds, or just south of an EV of 0.6

(Note - Krak grenades wound 3x as often, but have 1/3 the attacks - so same number).

Now the Riptide hits back.
(1/3)(5/6)(1), or 5/18 wounds per attack. How many A does a Riptide have? If its even 2, it wins against a 10man ASM squad that gets the charge. Even if its only 1, it could still, on average, win against a 10-man ASM squad by charging it.

That's what pisses off Marine players. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty doesn't work when the shooty outchops you *without shooting*.

In a fun side note, BA actually have better numbers here than other Marines.

Contrast this with how a Hammerhead, Pred, or Falcon handles being assaulted...

And it's all because the Riptide is too durable for its cost.

So are Necron Wraiths, so are Wraithknights, so are Centurions, so are just about any Daemon unit youll face (psy powers, grimoire). Yeah, Riptides are too durable for their PTs if you are approaching 7th ed 40k with a 5th ed mindset. Newsflash, it isn't 5th ed, it is 7th and in 7th Riptides just happen to be another good unit, hardly a game-breaking one.

People complaining about Riptides are a couple of years late, the day of Ovesa Stars dominating has long come to an end. There are plenty of counters to Riptides. Start with killing Markerlights and staying in terrain. Without markerlight support, Riptides are actually subpar shooters for their pts (run the numbers, Broadsides are FAR more effective for their pts, as are Sky-rays).

Hell, I played Riptide wing recently, unsupported by markers and allied into a Necron list. The Riptides essentially did nothing all game because without Markerlights their shooting was far too inaccurate.

@Lvalx
I've had the same experience. Riptides outside of a tau list is like a fish out of water. They're more like intercepting bullet sponges, rather than uber-death-dealing-mini-Ta'unars.


Even with the 3++ you get in enough shots/attacks and they go down hard.

 iddy00711 wrote:
@Lvalx
I've had the same experience. Riptides outside of a tau list is like a fish out of water. They're more like intercepting bullet sponges, rather than uber-death-dealing-mini-Ta'unars.


Even with the 3++ you get in enough shots/attacks and they go down hard.

Yeah, people are thinking of them using their 6th ed bias. Yes, when Tau first dropped, Riptides were too good (being able to attach IC to a squadron of them was a big culprit, as well as easily buffing them with Eldar farseers). Take away ML support and riptides can literally be ignored. I've played Riptide wing with my gladius strike force twice and in both games I didn't kill a single Riptide, yet won overwhelmingly. Kill the markerlights and profit, in fact, any time you face Tau go for the markerlights first and foremost.

7 Riptides? I mean wow.

Anyways, Hemlock Wraith fighters are fun to use. As mentioned earlier in the thread basically the Haemonculous covens and their cumulative LD de-buffs would help, coupled with the Dark Eldar debuffs. coupled with the Eldar Debuffs.

I am sure the SEVEN Riptides had anti-air in some measure so obviously we are assuming here that you survive it. And you may.

The Dark Eldar can push a -4 LD Armored Archon up in an Aethersail'd Raider. Then bring along the Eldar Warlocks for Horrify (-3). then bring in the Hemlocks (-2 per jet within 12") and finally use the Terrify Power, Shriek (which does not benefit from the Hemlocks) and shooting. You can knock 3 riptides off the board in one go. Assault the following round with Grotesquerie, win by one and send the rest off?

I don't know. Seems like it would work. Havent worked out the points but that would probably fit in 1850.

Would serve him right for bringing SEVEN Riptides though. Lol.

"so are Centurions"

Cents are fragile for their points. That's why the get invised constantly. Because otherwise the Eldar/Tau would just laugh them off the board.

7 riptides....?

that shouldnt even work. He cant put out enough firepower unless hes ungodly lucky with gets hot tests and BS3 crap to contest any objectives, and if he tries to bully off an objective LOL yeah that'll work... i wouldnt even bring that many in a 4k game just because i feel i'd be missing too much support for them unless i want to forgo any FW stuff (Riptide variants, ta'unar, hazards, etc) and no thanks. The moment he faces a list that either is just too durable for 7 riptide to kill (necrons) or has the answer for riptides (pretty much any eldar list or gravstars) he'd lose in a heartbeat.

Also, again, the riptide is not op because of its damn durability. Its suppose to be a frontline bulletsponge, the T6/5W/2+/5++ shows that. The problem is the IA enables it to abuse its durability at a distance and not suffer ANYTHING for being that far away from the battlefield. Like ive said dozens of times before, reduce the IA's AP w/o Nova to a 3+ and its range to mimic the HBC and the Riptide suddenly got a lot tamer. Both because its not sitting literally across the board anymore and it once again has nova risks like hits HBC brethren.
Reducing it to T5/4W/3+/6++ is yet another example of people just screaming "NERF WHAT ISNT MINE BECAUSE ITS GOOD" without thinking of the side-effects of what that nerf does. You dont nerfbat something thats overpowered into the ground, you tweak it so its still good but no longer the ultimatum pick. Its a damn tank per the fluff, only reason it has guns at all is because a tank needs to be threatening otherwise its ignored, problem is yet again the threat is too high and too safe to be on a tank.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. But they can cause catastrophic damage with only 2 or 3 turns of shooting. Reserving only delays the inevitable.

If they can't inflict catastrophic damage in 1 turn, that's 2 turns of action for you. So make it count.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
7 riptides....?

that shouldnt even work. He cant put out enough firepower unless hes ungodly lucky with gets hot tests and BS3 crap to contest any objectives, and if he tries to bully off an objective LOL yeah that'll work... i wouldnt even bring that many in a 4k game just because i feel i'd be missing too much support for them unless i want to forgo any FW stuff (Riptide variants, ta'unar, hazards, etc) and no thanks. The moment he faces a list that either is just too durable for 7 riptide to kill (necrons) or has the answer for riptides (pretty much any eldar list or gravstars) he'd lose in a heartbeat.

Also, again, the riptide is not op because of its damn durability. Its suppose to be a frontline bulletsponge, the T6/5W/2+/5++ shows that. The problem is the IA enables it to abuse its durability at a distance and not suffer ANYTHING for being that far away from the battlefield. Like ive said dozens of times before, reduce the IA's AP w/o Nova to a 3+ and its range to mimic the HBC and the Riptide suddenly got a lot tamer. Both because its not sitting literally across the board anymore and it once again has nova risks like hits HBC brethren.
Reducing it to T5/4W/3+/6++ is yet another example of people just screaming "NERF WHAT ISNT MINE BECAUSE ITS GOOD" without thinking of the side-effects of what that nerf does. You dont nerfbat something thats overpowered into the ground, you tweak it so its still good but no longer the ultimatum pick. Its a damn tank per the fluff, only reason it has guns at all is because a tank needs to be threatening otherwise its ignored, problem is yet again the threat is too high and too safe to be on a tank.

Nothing should be that tough for so few points. I would have to be able to completely ignore the thing the entire game for its durability to be fair.

you act like its the only thing in the game thats durable for "cheap" - news flash, it isnt. Wraiths consume my entire army's shooting for multiple turns before a 5man squad goes down, Space Wolves wolfriders are equally as durable, WK is damn near immortal, list goes on and on.

Yet the only thing that gets durability flak is the Riptide. Because its Tau, and the meta is hate on tau.