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 Vineheart01 wrote:
you act like its the only thing in the game thats durable for "cheap" - news flash, it isnt. Wraiths consume my entire army's shooting for multiple turns before a 5man squad goes down, Space Wolves wolfriders are equally as durable, WK is damn near immortal, list goes on and on.

Yet the only thing that gets durability flak is the Riptide. Because its Tau, and the meta is hate on tau.

Probably because it was the first, and the only one that hides on the back of the board.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
you act like its the only thing in the game thats durable for "cheap" - news flash, it isnt. Wraiths consume my entire army's shooting for multiple turns before a 5man squad goes down, Space Wolves wolfriders are equally as durable, WK is damn near immortal, list goes on and on.

Yet the only thing that gets durability flak is the Riptide. Because its Tau, and the meta is hate on tau.

A) Trust me, those get PLENTY of hate. B) The problem with all that durability is that none of the other units you listed pack that much fire power at 48" (except probably the WK, but trust me, that gets all the hate it deserves).

Quit acting like Tau are victims and Space Marines/Necron/Eldar players get no hate.

The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

The fact your own codex is a writing failure means not that the things you don't like should get removed from the game.

And that "suggestion" IS removing from the game. It won't even be a viable pick any more, let alone a centerpiece. In fact, no army would be willing to take that unit.

The riptide, as I've proven by math over a dozen times by now, has pathetic firepower for the cost when it has no marker support, with units from tau, eldar, marines, necron, IG and even orks getting higher damage output even WITH the accelerator.

The only thing it needs is to take the accelerator down a peg so it still needs NOVA to function. Easiest path is to take away the non-NOVA blast option, and that alone makes it completely fair.
Without non-NOVA blasts, it has dual dependency on both working NOVA and marker support in order to do serius damage, making it far more viable to outright ignore it if it tries to just hide in the distance.

I'm sorry to be blunt but anyone that says the Riptide has terrifying firepower for its points is a numpty and doesn't actually know how to beat Tau. A standard Riptide build with Ion Accelerator is around 200 points and shoots 1 S8 AP2 Large Blast plus various shots from a secondary weapon. That Large Blast is BS3 and thus very inaccurate (on an average scatter roll it moves 4" off target) and lacks Ignores Cover so surviving it is actually not that difficult. The problem is when Markerlights are added to the fray so that it becomes super accurate and ignores cover, destroying a unit with no difficulty.

How do we fix this? Oh, is it to use the most common tactic any player should use against Tau? Why, yes. Yes it is. Kill the Markerlights and stop whining like five year olds.

Isnt the SMS the main selling point for riptides? That + they tank well. Broadsides have much better output per point, but they don't really anchor lists. The riptide wing can put out 36 SMS shots ignoring los/cover when they activate formation bonus?

Riptides without the formation are not that amazing, the formation seem a bit over the top, but no more than many other things.

Looking at SMS with the formation bonus:

- 36x SMS shots at BS3 averages 18 hits.
- 18x Rapier shots (being BS4/TL) they average 16 S5 hits.
- 1x Vulture with Strafing Run averages about 18 S5 hits.
- 36x Fire Warriors also average 18 S5 hits, but double their output within 15".

Price difference - Riptide Wing is 540pts, FW are 324pts, Vulture is 155pts, 3x Rapiers are 120pts.

Takeaways - Riptides are not a cost-effective source of S5 shooting. SMS rules are attractive, but Tau has ML for Ignore Cover which is far more flexible.

I'd say Riptide durability and the IA blast is the main draw. It's intimidating to DS against an S8 AP2 blast, and a lot of players hate Riptides and will overfocus on killing them.

Well for an Eldar flavour: I'd destroy the supporting Marketlight network with Swooping Hawk grenade packs (ignore cover, AP4 and happens before interceptor) or a farseer using perfect timing on scat packs. Then I'd move onto the riptides themselves. I'd either use psykic scream and charge it with a seer star or spam them to death with 36 strength 8, AP2 hornet pulse lasers or mass bladestorm

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

The fact your own codex is a writing failure means not that the things you don't like should get removed from the game.

And that "suggestion" IS removing from the game. It won't even be a viable pick any more, let alone a centerpiece. In fact, no army would be willing to take that unit.

The riptide, as I've proven by math over a dozen times by now, has pathetic firepower for the cost when it has no marker support, with units from tau, eldar, marines, necron, IG and even orks getting higher damage output even WITH the accelerator.

The only thing it needs is to take the accelerator down a peg so it still needs NOVA to function. Easiest path is to take away the non-NOVA blast option, and that alone makes it completely fair.
Without non-NOVA blasts, it has dual dependency on both working NOVA and marker support in order to do serius damage, making it far more viable to outright ignore it if it tries to just hide in the distance.

Yeah - that seems pretty fair. Take a away a wound too. Then it's still tougher than a NDK - with longer range and JSJ for about the same cost.

 Torus wrote:
Well for an Eldar flavour: I'd destroy the supporting Marketlight network with Swooping Hawk grenade packs (ignore cover, AP4 and happens before interceptor) or a farseer using perfect timing on scat packs. Then I'd move onto the riptides themselves. I'd either use psykic scream and charge it with a seer star or spam them to death with 36 strength 8, AP2 hornet pulse lasers or mass bladestorm

In defense of the other side of the argument, you're playing Eldar.

"spam them to death with 36 strength 8, AP2 hornet pulse lasers or mass bladestorm"

"ignore cover, AP4 and happens before interceptor"

"farseer using perfect timing on scat packs"

Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

Tell that to Aaron Aleong who won NOVA Open and Invitational and top 8'd at LVO. Azrael is good in any assault based squad that is large in size (IMO 15+) because the 4++ is huge. It means that vs grav or AP3 that is str 7 or lower all your Death Company will at worst get a 4++ followed by FNP. That isn't half bad and with the speed of DC itll help you survive the initial round of shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Reduce it to T5, W4, Sv 3+, remove the nova-charged shield (or make it 6++ base nova-charged to 4++), increase the cost of FNP to 60 points and increase the base cost to 210, maybe, but I think just nerfing the IA down to match the cyclic ion raker would probably be enough. (Could keep the S9 AP2 nova-charged blast, but at no more than 30" range) A Riptide that has to operate up close gets eaten up or tarpitted by most armies.

haha you make me laugh. Might as well just remove it from the codex then

I'm fine with that, actually. The sad part is that even with those stats it's better than anything I have. I guess it's a real laugh for Tau when they see BA, then.

The fact your own codex is a writing failure means not that the things you don't like should get removed from the game.

And that "suggestion" IS removing from the game. It won't even be a viable pick any more, let alone a centerpiece. In fact, no army would be willing to take that unit.

The riptide, as I've proven by math over a dozen times by now, has pathetic firepower for the cost when it has no marker support, with units from tau, eldar, marines, necron, IG and even orks getting higher damage output even WITH the accelerator.

The only thing it needs is to take the accelerator down a peg so it still needs NOVA to function. Easiest path is to take away the non-NOVA blast option, and that alone makes it completely fair.
Without non-NOVA blasts, it has dual dependency on both working NOVA and marker support in order to do serius damage, making it far more viable to outright ignore it if it tries to just hide in the distance.

My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Dreadknights aren't fearless either...

 krodarklorr wrote:

Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

But the essence of it is the same... ignores cover weaponry/ high ROF weapons on the markerlights and then attack the riptides with psychic powers, rending or AT, if you can do that in assault and have the means to get there or can augment your attacks to achieve the effect all the power to you.

In any case the methodology works doesn't it?

jade_angel wrote:
My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

30" is not close. Maybe if the IA had a range of 18" the BA would have a chance. DK want to ASSAULT, which means that they have to get to melta range even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
I'm sorry to be blunt but anyone that says the Riptide has terrifying firepower for its points is a numpty and doesn't actually know how to beat Tau. A standard Riptide build with Ion Accelerator is around 200 points and shoots 1 S8 AP2 Large Blast plus various shots from a secondary weapon. That Large Blast is BS3 and thus very inaccurate (on an average scatter roll it moves 4" off target) and lacks Ignores Cover so surviving it is actually not that difficult. The problem is when Markerlights are added to the fray so that it becomes super accurate and ignores cover, destroying a unit with no difficulty.

How do we fix this? Oh, is it to use the most common tactic any player should use against Tau? Why, yes. Yes it is. Kill the Markerlights and stop whining like five year olds.

Killing the markerlights would require one to have units left on the board to kill them with. I know all about killing markerlights. And yet, even without them, Riptides will hit directly 33% of the time and deny all armor saves under the blast.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Dreadknights aren't fearless either...

You're right. They have Better-than-Fearless.

I don't know. I have seen marines run off the table before.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
They can be swept in assault correct?

MC are fearless so I am not sure that they can be swept.

MCs aren't Fearless base. The Riptide is the only non-fearless MC in the game, currently.

*Ninjad

Dreadknights aren't fearless either...

You're right. They have Better-than-Fearless.

To be fair - as a marine player for a LOOONG time - I can tell you that hurts you just about as often as it helps you. Marine squads can't do dick against anything tough in CC but they sure end up being great hiding places for enemy assualt units during MY shooting phase.

[quote=Xenomancers
To be fair - as a marine player for a LOOONG time - I can tell you that hurts you just about as often as it helps you. Marine squads can't do dick against anything tough in CC but they sure end up being great hiding places for enemy assualt units during MY shooting phase.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

30" is not close. Maybe if the IA had a range of 18" the BA would have a chance. DK want to ASSAULT, which means that they have to get to melta range even.

My proposed nerf here would have the non-nova profile would be AP4, just like the Ghostkeel's cyclic ion raker. The nova profile would still be AP2, but at the cost of self-inflicted damage 33% of the time plus Gets Hot (which isn't terribly dangerous, but does keep the weapon from firing).

 LValx wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

Tell that to Aaron Aleong who won NOVA Open and Invitational and top 8'd at LVO. Azrael is good in any assault based squad that is large in size (IMO 15+) because the 4++ is huge. It means that vs grav or AP3 that is str 7 or lower all your Death Company will at worst get a 4++ followed by FNP. That isn't half bad and with the speed of DC itll help you survive the initial round of shooting.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
My nerf suggestion was pretty much intentionally overstated, to make exactly the point that's happened - nerf the Riptide down to Hive Tyrant-level durability and it's not interesting anymore.

Changing the IA to match the CIR, but with a nova-charged profile would be a far better fix, but maybe give it 30" base range rather than 24".

C'mon, even BA can deal with a beastie forced to operate up close. Martel, you're the biggest critic of the Riptide and NDK I've seen on here, and even you concede that the NDK is much easier to deal with, no? It's a lot more competent in close combat, and the only real way it's less durable is W4 versus W5. (FNP mostly just offsets the nova reactor, in theory - the IA farkles that right now.)

30" is not close. Maybe if the IA had a range of 18" the BA would have a chance. DK want to ASSAULT, which means that they have to get to melta range even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
I'm sorry to be blunt but anyone that says the Riptide has terrifying firepower for its points is a numpty and doesn't actually know how to beat Tau. A standard Riptide build with Ion Accelerator is around 200 points and shoots 1 S8 AP2 Large Blast plus various shots from a secondary weapon. That Large Blast is BS3 and thus very inaccurate (on an average scatter roll it moves 4" off target) and lacks Ignores Cover so surviving it is actually not that difficult. The problem is when Markerlights are added to the fray so that it becomes super accurate and ignores cover, destroying a unit with no difficulty.

How do we fix this? Oh, is it to use the most common tactic any player should use against Tau? Why, yes. Yes it is. Kill the Markerlights and stop whining like five year olds.

Killing the markerlights would require one to have units left on the board to kill them with. I know all about killing markerlights. And yet, even without them, Riptides will hit directly 33% of the time and deny all armor saves under the blast.

Without markerlights you are still receiving cover saves... So uhh, roll those 4+s/5+s.. Unless you play on planet bowling ball, at which point maybe you should introduce more varied terrain..

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

You could slingshot him in, Martel doesn't do allies though.

He is going to nobly die on the sword that Sanguinus honourably gave him

Yoyoyo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.

I wasn't saying other armies can't deal with it, I'm just saying most other armies don't have 30 bajillion S8 or S6 shots with amazing psychic powers to back it up. Necrons have very easy ways of dealing with them...*cough*Tomb Blades*cough*.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.

I wasn't saying other armies can't deal with it, I'm just saying most other armies don't have 30 bajillion S8 or S6 shots with amazing psychic powers to back it up. Necrons have very easy ways of dealing with them...*cough*Tomb Blades*cough*.

Drop heavy flamers are a huge gamble. They are worse than useless against meched up opponents. I personally don't use them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Most other armies actually have only the average means of dealing with markerlights, not the OPdar ways.

Wyverns, drop Heavy Flamers, Ignore Cover or Pinning blasts, Psychic Shriek and Pyro Powers.... granted Nerons are pretty lacklustre but their deal is resiliency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

You could slingshot him in, Martel doesn't do allies though.

He is going to nobly die on the sword that Sanguinus honourably gave him

I'm thinking about a knight Warden, but I'm not sure that really fixes any of my problems. IA still deletes everything BUT the knight and the HYMP kill the knight.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

You could slingshot him in, Martel doesn't do allies though.

He is going to nobly die on the sword that Sanguinus honourably gave him

That's still iffy. I love Azzy in the fluff, but his rules stink. He doesn't have EW (unless his now being a Lord of War choice gave it to him ) and he's only T4 with a 2+/4++/6+ FNP.