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You... Don't need S8 or even S6 to remove the marker support, they are mostly very fragile (pathfinders, drones, tetras) or very pricy (skyray and jets)

Even the networked drones are easily caught and pummeled by a lousy whirlwind, and there are many better indirect artillery out there. (amazing how tau gets hate for thier LoS ignoring SMS when nearly everyone has stronger LoS ignoring guns)

Or use you deep strikers into a position they can hit them. It takes mere 6 bolter shots to kill a drone, a heavy flamer kills two thirds of the drones hit. Lotsa options.

If you only take brute force tools, don't be surprised something designed specifically against brute force is though. Riptides should be played around by taking away thier support, not faced directly.


And for whoever used assault marine with no specials - really dude? A universally agreed bad unit in a bad setup compared to its subpar self is your argument?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 LValx wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The WK and Riptide are good against opposite targets. At least the WK's shooting is actually pretty weak vs MSU.

So is the Riptides. It either completely overkills its target or it hardly does anything. Its completely reliant on markerlights to become an efficient killer and more often than not is completely scattershot. This is coming from someone who plays extreme msu (31 unit gladius) and often faces Tau.

As a BA player are you completely unwilling to ally? Why dont you just build a large squad of death company, buff them with invisibility and watch Tau players weep? Ally in a couple of Iron Priests for ablative wounds, ally in Azrael for a 4++. You have ways to deal with Riptides..

ally in Azrael? why?
He is terrible outside of blob guard stuff

Tell that to Aaron Aleong who won NOVA Open and Invitational and top 8'd at LVO. Azrael is good in any assault based squad that is large in size (IMO 15+) because the 4++ is huge. It means that vs grav or AP3 that is str 7 or lower all your Death Company will at worst get a 4++ followed by FNP. That isn't half bad and with the speed of DC itll help you survive the initial round of shooting.

How? Not an actual troll, but genuine seriousness, how is Azzy getting into assault with the DC? The DC are generally best with Jump Packs, something Azzy can not take (if he could take that or a bike, I think he'd see more competitive play).

How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss, for two turns. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.) It's only 36 hits if they can get side armor, and then the plasma rifles can glance, and you can halve those figures again if you can avoid the ion shield by suckering an opponent into putting it on the wrong side.

jade_angel wrote:
How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.)

Maybe they'll have to exert effort and deep strike in some fusion suits, then. I just gave them a good target, and my current BA lists have no good targets for fusion suits.

I'm just used to HYMP killing everything they fire at. Lazy thinking. I stopped making the Tau player roll in some cases.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.)

Maybe they'll have to exert effort and deep strike in some fusion suits, then. I just gave them a good target, and my current BA lists have no good targets for fusion suits.

I'm just used to HYMP killing everything they fire at. Lazy thinking. I stopped making the Tau player roll in some cases.

Sorry, but that's loser mentality.
NEVER skip a roll, unlikely results are not actually as unlikely as you might think. I've been many times on both the dishing and the receiving ends of statistical anomaly. In fact, pretty much every game has at least one anomaly.

Given that you give up without even trying, I'm not going to take anything you say as valuable. Your mindset is obviously fixated on seeing only the bad at your own side, and the good at the other side.

The grass might he always greener at the other side of the fence, but you imagine a whole jungle.

DooDoo wrote:
[quote=Xenomancers
To be fair - as a marine player for a LOOONG time - I can tell you that hurts you just about as often as it helps you. Marine squads can't do dick against anything tough in CC but they sure end up being great hiding places for enemy assualt units during MY shooting phase.

Play White Scars and eliminate this weakness. Scars also have guaranteed ignores cover for 20 points and scout if they run Khan. White scars should never lose to Tau

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
How are the HYMPs killing the knight? Statistically, it takes 72 S7 AP4 hits to deplete 6 HP from AV13 with a 4++. That's three squads of three Broadsides that are in range for every shot and never miss. (If they're hitting the front armor, the SMS or plasma rifles are doing no damage.)

Maybe they'll have to exert effort and deep strike in some fusion suits, then. I just gave them a good target, and my current BA lists have no good targets for fusion suits.

I'm just used to HYMP killing everything they fire at. Lazy thinking. I stopped making the Tau player roll in some cases.

Sorry, but that's loser mentality.
NEVER skip a roll, unlikely results are not actually as unlikely as you might think. I've been many times on both the dishing and the receiving ends of statistical anomaly. In fact, pretty much every game has at least one anomaly.

Given that you give up without even trying, I'm not going to take anything you say as valuable. Your mindset is obviously fixated on seeing only the bad at your own side, and the good at the other side.

The grass might he always greener at the other side of the fence, but you imagine a whole jungle.

HPing out a rhino when shot by HYMPs is not a loser mentality. Or a 5 man tac squad. One can get sick of staring at failed saves.

If I were inclined to wearing tinfoil hats, I'd bet your local Tau guy is either a cheesemonster from hell, or else an outright cheater.

jade_angel wrote:
If I were inclined to wearing tinfoil hats, I'd bet your local Tau guy is either a cheesemonster from hell, or else an outright cheater.

No, it just doesn't take many ignore cover IA shots to gut a BA list. Or CSM list. Riptides can move and the angle around LoS blocking terrain, and are immune to return fire from most imperial lists. Certainly any BA list.

martel - get a knight warden.

 Xenomancers wrote:
martel - get a knight warden.

I said I've been thinking about it. I really don't like the fact that a Riptide is tougher for half the price, though. Makes me feel like I'm getting ripped off.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You... Don't need S8 or even S6 to remove the marker support, they are mostly very fragile (pathfinders, drones, tetras) or very pricy (skyray and jets)

Even the networked drones are easily caught and pummeled by a lousy whirlwind, and there are many better indirect artillery out there. (amazing how tau gets hate for thier LoS ignoring SMS when nearly everyone has stronger LoS ignoring guns)

"Barrage" is not the same as flatout ignoring LOS.
Additionally, basically everything that you're complaining about as "stronger LoS ignoring guns" are Blast templates--meaning they can Scatter.

In any regards, it's also not coupled with a 5 point Interceptor on demand upgrade for whatever weapons you want in the form of Early Warning Overrides.

Or use you deep strikers into a position they can hit them. It takes mere 6 bolter shots to kill a drone, a heavy flamer kills two thirds of the drones hit. Lotsa options.

And before your Deep Strikers can fire, they have to survive a round of EWO coupled with SMS--because SMS doesn't require LOS and can be fired as Interceptor.

If you only take brute force tools, don't be surprised something designed specifically against brute force is though. Riptides should be played around by taking away thier support, not faced directly.

When someone "only" takes Riptide Wings and Drone Networks, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of a way for the other player to remove their support.

And for whoever used assault marine with no specials - really dude? A universally agreed bad unit in a bad setup compared to its subpar self is your argument?

Says the guy who advocates deep striking heavy flamers(only available on Sternguard and Legion of the Damned) and bolters to kill Pathfinders and Marker Drones.

Whirlwinds have an ignore's cover shot right?

 Torus wrote:
Whirlwinds have an ignore's cover shot right?

Yup. What's your point?
It's S4 AP5 Ordnance 1, Barrage, Ignores Cover, and Large Blast versus the other which is S5 AP4 Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast.

Barrage weapons, in order to be fired indirectly(where they get no benefit from their BS for the purposes of reducing Scatter), need to be outside of their minimum range(in the case of a Whirlwind: 12") to utilize their "ignores LOS fire".

Still, isn't this a valid tool for hunting t3 pathfinders or t4 drones?

Not meaning to offend, I just haven't used my marines in a while and a squadron of whirlwinds with pinning and shred just seem like an adequate solution to markerlights in cover...

 Torus wrote:
Still, isn't this a valid tool for hunting t3 pathfinders or t4 drones?

Not meaning to offend, I just haven't used my marines in a while and a squadron of whirlwinds with pinning and shred just seem like an adequate solution to markerlights in cover...

I'm not saying it's not a solution: I'm saying it's not a RELIABLE solution. You have to remember that when firing a Barrage weapon when you have no LOS?
You're not subtracting your BS from the Scatter results. That's a huge downside.

Additionally, remember that my reply was specifically quoting someone claiming that it was "amazing how tau gets hate for their LoS ignoring SMS when nearly everyone has stronger LoS ignoring guns".
The reason SMS gets so much hate is that it's a standard option on Broadsides and Riptides, not a Barrage/Blast, and is on platforms with access to a ridiculously easy joke of an Interceptor-on-Demand upgrade.

Add in as well that those platforms aren't vehicles that can be glanced to death and it is as though Tau players are willingly blinding themselves as to why people find it so irritating to play against certain builds.

At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

I hear that DE/harlequin Freakshows are very good against riptides and Stormsurges. One good Psychic Shriek can kill a riptide and force tho others to fall back. CC ability is also devastating against Riptides.

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Doesn't change what i said, at all.

Last time i checked, everything in 40K can be killed. So pointing out that it can also isnt really addressing my point.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at yur doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Doesn't change what i said, at all.

Last time i checked, everything in 40K can be killed. So pointing out that it can also isnt really addressing my point.

I'm saying that AV 13 walkers (only on the front, mind you) actually are kinda crappy against Xenos. But great against other Imperials. Ah the irony. Does that change what you said enough? There's a reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Warden yet. I don't think it will help that much. Just give fusion suits and fire dragons a target.

And artillery guns who are not that hot against imperial forces are murderous against xenos, your point?

Different tools gets different jobs done.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And artillery guns who are not that hot against imperial forces are murderous against xenos, your point?

Different tools gets different jobs done.

What guns are you speaking of? Because 3+ armor and better is now the standard for Xenos as well.

Fusion suits aren't actually all that good against Knights, believe it or not. It's possible (but pretty unlikely) to drop one in one turn, but the bigger the unit, the riskier the deep strike is, plus possible reserve-roll screwage.

Fire Dragons are scarier - more likely to get that 1d3 HP result, don't need markerlights - and Wraithguard are scarier still.

That said, I'd favor the Knight Crusader instead of the Warden: two battle cannon shots can put a damper on a lot of stuff. You can shred some markerlight support, and still have the gatling gun. You lose the D-chainsword, but it's still S10 AP2 in melee with Stomp, so it's no joke.

Yes, Wraithknights will screw it up. Alas, there's not a very good answer for that for anyone except Necrons, Tau and other Eldar (who just bury it in fire until they get lucky enough times). But, against anything else, the Knight Crusader is pretty scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
3+ Armor? What's that? (I say, wearing my Dark Eldar hat.) :-P

But, yes, in fairness, Eldar, Tau and Necrons have 3+ almost everywhere.

jade_angel wrote:
Fusion suits aren't actually all that good against Knights, believe it or not. It's possible to drop one in one turn, but the bigger the unit, the riskier the deep strike is, plus possible reserve-roll screwage.

Fire Dragons are scarier - more likely to get that 1d3 HP result, don't need markerlights - and Wraithguard are scarier still.

That said, I'd favor the Knight Crusader instead of the Warden: two battle cannon shots can put a damper on a lot of stuff. You can shred some markerlight support, and still have the gatling gun. You lose the D-chainsword, but it's still S10 AP2 in melee with Stomp, so it's no joke.

Yes, Wraithknights will screw it up. Alas, there's not a very good answer for that for anyone except Necrons, Tau and other Eldar (who just bury it in fire until they get lucky enough times). But, against anything else, the Knight Crusader is pretty scary.

More dakka? The chainsaw is the only realistic way to get any Str D in a BA list, though. And the crusader gives up more points when it dies.

DE aren't Xenos anymore. They're officially a sub set of the IG now with that 5+ armor.

That's a good point, yeah. I suppose it depends how interesting the D-blade is versus having both the RFBC and the AGC on the same guy. The D is really good if you can manage to get into melee with most anything I4 or less, and a Warden can probably run a Riptide down unless they get really lucky with jet-pack moves (or keep nova-charging for 4d6 jumps, but then they're probably eating nova failures...)

So yeah, the Warden actually might work just as well.

The D-blade can also chain-saw through something like a Storm Surge in a reasonable amount of time instead of being tarpitted forever.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Tau have the option of leaving all their crappy vehicles at home and bringing the new hotness MCs. Most Imperial lists are hosed in that respect.

AV 13 walkers that can show up at your doorstep isnt exactly crappy. Just saying.

Xenos don't care. They have the dakka to bring them down like chumps. Other Imperial lists, ironically, are stuck with Imperial heavy weapons and struggle a lot more.

Doesn't change what i said, at all.

Last time i checked, everything in 40K can be killed. So pointing out that it can also isnt really addressing my point.

I'm saying that AV 13 walkers (only on the front, mind you) actually are kinda crappy against Xenos. But great against other Imperials. Ah the irony. Does that change what you said enough? There's a reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Warden yet. I don't think it will help that much. Just give fusion suits and fire dragons a target.

Would you be open to taking a raven wing support squadron? It's a dark angels formaton of land speeders that comes stock with interceptor. It has to take ether a dark shroud or the plasma speeder BUT in this case it might work good for you. Take 3-4 Landspeeders with missles and HB and Dark shroud and hang them behind your warden. You can use them to pick off suicide deep strikers off your warden and also to pick off squads of pathfinders and stuff. You can do this outside of the range of most tau firepower it's only 275 points with 3 speeders and the shroud it's decent firepower with interceptor. It's what I do to protect my knight. Then if you are showing only front armor to HYMP you should live long enough to make it into a riptide or two.

Interesting. It would be like reliving the old combined codex. As a formation, it stands alone as a detachment, too, I believe. It would take me a while to get this stuff together because we are talking 2 codices plus knight plus 4 ish speeders.