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 Dozer Blades wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Only dedicated melee units with the right tools can quickly solo a tide not counting on using a multi assault.

T6
6W
2+/3++/5+++

First off, riptide has 5 wounds
Second, you are just assauming that A) nova charge went off and B) they choose the 3++ and C) They took sim injectors

I always prepare for the worst case and there is no reason not to take stim injectors.

I never take sim injectors. Riptides are already tanky enough without them and I would rather have that 35 points to spend on something else

 Jancoran wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Its insane if you have no mobility.

What do you suppose you should do about that?

"Buy a new army" is even more insane than "just melee it".

Last time I played Tau I actually had a great solution: Warhound Titan to the Riptide's face. Titans have a tendency to make people a tad annoyed though, because they're too good, like a certain other unit...

No one said to get a new army. But yeah. You might have to update one.

If you dont want to melee it, pay the price.

There's two ways I can reasonably catch a Riptide in melee as BT; either I manage to deep strike close enough to them with something that can assault out of deep strike that they don't simply erase the unit with Interceptor or I ram Smashfether and friends at one and catch it at earliest round 4, at which point the Riptide will already have done its damage and I will have spent almost 500 points chasing one down for more than half the game. That's if there's no unit blocking the path, if the Tau player decides to pretend that the Riptide is a static turret. If the Riptide is really out of position I might even make it by turn 3, but I can't exactly rely on my opponent being awful. I'm not taking Overwatch from every Tau-controlled system in the Galaxy into account either.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Its insane if you have no mobility.

What do you suppose you should do about that?

"Buy a new army" is even more insane than "just melee it".

Last time I played Tau I actually had a great solution: Warhound Titan to the Riptide's face. Titans have a tendency to make people a tad annoyed though, because they're too good, like a certain other unit...

No one said to get a new army. But yeah. You might have to update one.

If you dont want to melee it, pay the price.

There's two ways I can reasonably catch a Riptide in melee as BT; either I manage to deep strike close enough to them with something that can assault out of deep strike that they don't simply erase the unit with Interceptor or I ram Smashfether and friends at one and catch it at earliest round 4, at which point the Riptide will already have done its damage and I will have spent almost 500 points chasing one down for more than half the game. That's if there's no unit blocking the path, if the Tau player decides to pretend that the Riptide is a static turret. If the Riptide is really out of position I might even make it by turn 3, but I can't exactly rely on my opponent being awful. I'm not taking Overwatch from every Tau-controlled system in the Galaxy into account either.

exactly
everyone saying get into melee with Tau forgets that they turn your assault into another shooting phase. Any assault on a Tau gunline will leave half or more of almost any attacking squad dead before they even get into combat, and thats if they can get close enough to assault in the first place. After the overwatch is done, there is also a decent chance that whatever squad you had assaulting is no longer in range to make it in from all the casualties.

I'm pretty confident that Smashfether can tank Overwatch and proceed to murderize a Riptide if he gets the chance, but not repeatedly, and not if he and his unit's taken fire for three turns prior to it. There's also a non-negligible risk of killing the Riptide only to have your 400+ point unit dissolved by the rest of the army next turn, although if you've gotten that far you've at least killed a Riptide and soaked a lot of shooting from the Tau army.

Unfortunately/fortunately, not every army can have a Smashfether type tank at the front of their squad, so most melee units are fairly boned

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Its insane if you have no mobility.

What do you suppose you should do about that?

"Buy a new army" is even more insane than "just melee it".

Last time I played Tau I actually had a great solution: Warhound Titan to the Riptide's face. Titans have a tendency to make people a tad annoyed though, because they're too good, like a certain other unit...

No one said to get a new army. But yeah. You might have to update one.

If you dont want to melee it, pay the price.

There's two ways I can reasonably catch a Riptide in melee as BT; either I manage to deep strike close enough to them with something that can assault out of deep strike that they don't simply erase the unit with Interceptor or I ram Smashfether and friends at one and catch it at earliest round 4, at which point the Riptide will already have done its damage and I will have spent almost 500 points chasing one down for more than half the game. That's if there's no unit blocking the path, if the Tau player decides to pretend that the Riptide is a static turret. If the Riptide is really out of position I might even make it by turn 3, but I can't exactly rely on my opponent being awful. I'm not taking Overwatch from every Tau-controlled system in the Galaxy into account either.

exactly
everyone saying get into melee with Tau forgets that they turn your assault into another shooting phase. Any assault on a Tau gunline will leave half or more of almost any attacking squad dead before they even get into combat, and thats if they can get close enough to assault in the first place. After the overwatch is done, there is also a decent chance that whatever squad you had assaulting is no longer in range to make it in from all the casualties.

yeah.... thats an ove-rexagerration lol. You are snap firing all shots (hitting on 6s) and no blasts are allowed either that means

I assaulted a riptide wing today with a single 5 man unit of wracks and even with them taking 18 ion cannon shots and 6 fusion blaster shots on overwatch, I still only lost 2. Got in and even won the combat with the 50 point unit.

They're tough as hell, sure. I just kill everything else first and focus on them last.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I assaulted a riptide wing today with a single 5 man unit of wracks and even with them taking 18 ion cannon shots and 6 fusion blaster shots on overwatch, I still only lost 2. Got in and even won the combat with the 50 point unit.

They're tough as hell, sure. I just kill everything else first and focus on them last.

Was it 6 riptides? otherwise you gave them double the number of shots (3 riptides shoot 9 ion accelerator and 3 fusion)

 Jancoran wrote:
No. You SAY they are list tailoring so you can find an excuse not to do it. That's closer to the mark.

The reality is... You know for a fact Tau are going to show up as you know Eldar will. And if they dont, bonus. But you NEED to plan for them. Foolishly claiming you "shouldn't" plan for them for some reason? Not really flying with me.

I think the issue is that Martel wants a solution that is rooted in reality, not some CAAC madness spawned from 'battle reports' that look borderline rigged.

And, of course, a solution that will actually work against different armies as well - ie, not list tailored. A riptide may be one of few things a dreadnought will do okay against, but why does it matter when he doesn't know ahead of time if he'll face riptides or not?

Jancoran, the difference here is that Martel plays in a competetive meta. Fething around with tactical marines, thousand sons and mutilators is not going to work.

I think I'm going to try upping my storm shields and see if that works. Between the HYMP, Stormsurge, and Riptides, they aren't using that many pulse rifles in their Tau lists.

Furioso dreads are okay in general against Tau when delivered via pod, but it's not something you can spam and have a good list.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I think the issue is that Martel wants a solution that is rooted in reality, not some CAAC madness spawned from 'battle reports' that look borderline rigged.

And, of course, a solution that will actually work against different armies as well - ie, not list tailored. A riptide may be one of few things a dreadnought will do okay against, but why does it matter when he doesn't know ahead of time if he'll face riptides or not?

Jancoran, the difference here is that Martel plays in a competetive meta. Fething around with tactical marines, thousand sons and mutilators is not going to work.

That Lictorshame list started very much as "fething around", originally it included Dethleper and 8x Lictors. Same player tied on VPs in the recent LVO finals with a Corpsethief Claw, it should be obvious there are huge benefits to experimentation and creativity.

Martel, you should post your list. It might explain a few things.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Only dedicated melee units with the right tools can quickly solo a tide not counting on using a multi assault.

T6
6W
2+/3++/5+++

First off, riptide has 5 wounds
Second, you are just assauming that A) nova charge went off and B) they choose the 3++ and C) They took sim injectors

I always prepare for the worst case and there is no reason not to take stim injectors.

That depends, the mandatory upgrade is EWO because of how cheap it is. For IA versions, yeah, FnP turns it into a beast. For HBC variants, it's a toss up between VT for Skyfire and FnP, of which I normally go with VT since I don't usually take Sky Rays/Flyers.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I think the issue is that Martel wants a solution that is rooted in reality, not some CAAC madness spawned from 'battle reports' that look borderline rigged.

And, of course, a solution that will actually work against different armies as well - ie, not list tailored. A riptide may be one of few things a dreadnought will do okay against, but why does it matter when he doesn't know ahead of time if he'll face riptides or not?

Jancoran, the difference here is that Martel plays in a competetive meta. Fething around with tactical marines, thousand sons and mutilators is not going to work.

That Lictorshame list started very much as "fething around", originally it included Dethleper and 8x Lictors. Same player tied on VPs in the recent LVO finals with a Corpsethief Claw, it should be obvious there are huge benefits to experimentation and creativity.

Martel, you should post your list. It might explain a few things.

Ah yes, the classic benefit of playing something "stupid" in any game is that nobody us ever ready for it, so even if you are not the most optimal, you usually still have the element of surprise in your favor.

Served me well in many strategy games. Works best at rts, as you can really take them off guard, but has merits in turn based too, especially when most armies are not all that flexible once the list is finalized.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I assaulted a riptide wing today with a single 5 man unit of wracks and even with them taking 18 ion cannon shots and 6 fusion blaster shots on overwatch, I still only lost 2. Got in and even won the combat with the 50 point unit.

They're tough as hell, sure. I just kill everything else first and focus on them last.

Was it 6 riptides? otherwise you gave them double the number of shots (3 riptides shoot 9 ion accelerator and 3 fusion)

It was only 3, but he had ripple fired or whatever lets him shoot twice that turn. We checked the wording and it said in the shooting phase, but ITC seems to have ruled most things that say in the shooting phase like monstrous creatures firing two weapons or crisis suits shooting two weapons as counting for overwatch as well. It's kinda weird to me, but a lot of people see the line about making a shooting attack as normal meaning they get all those benefits during overwatch as well.

Wait, an ITC ruling that benefits Tau? Say it ain't so!

Slightly more on-topic, can Inquisitors get Psychic Scream? That could be a cheap-ish option that doesn't require a bunch of other stuff.

Currently, I'm running

Archangel sanguine wing:

10 vanguards, 5 power maul, 5 power axe, 4 melta bomb, 2 stormshield, jump packs

10 vangurds, 5 power maul, 5 power axe, 4 melta bomb, 2 stormshield, jump packs

10 sternguards, 10 combi-melta

Stormraven, extra armor, mm, ac

BA CAD

Sang priest, jump pack, angels wing, veritas vitae

Sang priest, jump pack,

5 tacs, rhino, plasma, combi plas

5 tacs, rhino, melta, combi melta

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

Furioso, frag cannon, heavy flamer, drop pod w/deathwind

3 bikers, 2 grav guns

So far i'm liking this list because I routed a necron player with it.

I can't convince myself to use Sternguard with combi-meltas. I always have plenty of targets with their standard ammo and if I really need a melta squad I feel like a command squad would work better.

I have found the 1st company strike force worked well against riptide wing though. Marking one for preferred enemy made it really easy to drop him through 2+ rerollable wounding.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Wait, an ITC ruling that benefits Tau? Say it ain't so!

Slightly more on-topic, can Inquisitors get Psychic Scream? That could be a cheap-ish option that doesn't require a bunch of other stuff.

mostly because the "only one gun" limit is also only in the shooting phase, so otherwise everyone shoots EVERYTHING on overwatch, regardless of how many weapons they got.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I can't convince myself to use Sternguard with combi-meltas. I always have plenty of targets with their standard ammo and if I really need a melta squad I feel like a command squad would work better.

I have found the 1st company strike force worked well against riptide wing though. Marking one for preferred enemy made it really easy to drop him through 2+ rerollable wounding.

They're free, so there's that.

Ah, that makes more sense then. I'm not very familiar with Blood Angels.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


There's two ways I can reasonably catch a Riptide in melee as BT; either I manage to deep strike close enough to them with something that can assault out of deep strike that they don't simply erase the unit with Interceptor or I ram Smashfether and friends at one and catch it at earliest round 4, at which point the Riptide will already have done its damage and I will have spent almost 500 points chasing one down for more than half the game. That's if there's no unit blocking the path, if the Tau player decides to pretend that the Riptide is a static turret. If the Riptide is really out of position I might even make it by turn 3, but I can't exactly rely on my opponent being awful. I'm not taking Overwatch from every Tau-controlled system in the Galaxy into account either.

Two ways?

Here's a question for you. I can only assume most discussions revolve around Dawn of War deployment, though why they should is a mystery since you will actually only play Dawn of War 1/3 of the time. But assuming that to be the board... Here is what I know about Space Marine capabilities:

What you're suggesting here is that you couldn't possibly reach them before turn 3 with that many units pressing the field and forsaking shooting for a round. Is that actually true? Turn three seems the latest you could do it but what would allow it sooner?

It strikes me that infiltrators can strike sooner. They can strike in turn two. if only there were some rules allowing that right? If there were only a way to press in on and surround them...

Wait...there are! Drop Pods (which can even be free in a Battle Company) which you can use to spread out in a circular pattern when you arrive essentially de-fanging the Ion Cannon. Infiltrating comes with Strategic Warlord traits as well as with the ones you can get from Chapter Tacctics if you're willing to adapt your list to include them (no guarantees o nthe Warlord Traits). If you are willing to adapt your list. Key words. Let's assume you don't want to rely at all on a Warlord trait and further you reject the already existing (and simple) expedient of using the Chapter Tactics that are available to you... which is a choice you make but let's assume you don't. Scouts and cout bikes both have scout and can get there post haste. A Scout Squad can start 12" from an enemy unit ia their rules and Scout Bikes can do the same, presumably taking up good positions with which to weather the initial storm! You will take predictable losses doing this unless you mitigate them but then...you had already consigned yourself to that apparently so this is hardly worse than the alternative. Want a more conventional answer that is backed up by some pretty impressive new rules? Land Speeder Storms can be an enormuly useful alternative to a Drop Pod. They now can effectively act like Drop Pods that hit a LOT harder than drop pods and are mobile afterwards.

In other words, the ways in which you CAN reach the front lines, bracketing the enemy and ready to fight are miriad for your codex if you wer evr to embrace them. Which is a choice.

Saturation being s important as it is.... who can do that better than a Battle Company?

Predictable losses will be taken. How to mitigate them.

The answer is Terrain, and mobile terrain. Terrain is certainly going to be likely, so juducuous use of it makes sense. So what else in the army could be used? Well let's see what we have... Some of the faster vehicles in the game, in the form of Land Speeders which can provide both credible threat and cover... We have Drop Pods and we have... massive LO blockers like a Land Raider moving flat out as a worst answer. Is there more? Does there need to be?

Now a point that might easily go overlooked is that to eliminate cover saves REQUIRES Marker Drones (at least for the Tau empire weapons systems for which it matters, which are those with AP 4+ or 3+). Marker Drones can be killed. More importantly, since you're not assaulting round one, they should be. This makes their overwatch potential much easier to handle. Another thing to notice: the BS upgrades on various Tau Empire Formation are encouraging Generals (s evidenced in the LVO lists if you take a gander) to take a LOT less Markerlights. They tend to apparently take their chances on cover and spend more points on damage dealing. A choice, but its noticable in games here and in games at LVO. So if that's geeeeenerally true, there will be less of them to kill in the coming days (not alwys and no...no...no... I'm not telling you to "rely" on that, but you certainly should think about it a bit when planning what you intend to do with your list post Mon'tKa). The point to be made here is that you will not have unlimited Marker Drones to kill.

So back to cover: if we assume they do in fact have all the Markerligfhts they need to ignore the cover you've thoughtfully brought, that means they aren't using thoe same Markerlights for other things. Again predictable losses will occur but those Markerlights arent unlimited and neither is the enemy shooting. So if you have saturated the enemy 9and you should) then even though it will hurt (as my Night Lords can attest) you will absolutely have enough there to get in on the Riptides.

This means embracing mobility, and if you have access, embracing some less orthodox units and maybe spending a little less points on some "sure fire" killer combos. Maybe. But you will now be better able to cope with the Tau Empire.

So i have a real problem imagining that anyone who actually WANTS to be in on the Tau Empire by turn two can't accomplish it.

These same tools serve you when facing Eldar Scatterbike spam. they serve you in all kinds of situations. Speed and maneuverability serve you for maelstrom objectives.

What it comes down to is: do you want an actual solution or do you just want to tell me how there's no answer bad enough that you won't change. Because until Generals get off their happy place and start re-learning what they alwys assumed, it is going to go rough for them.

No that isnt me telling people to "git better". I'm just telling you that you have to CHANGE the approach you take to list building. You will be JUST as good as you were before (for better or for worse), your list will LOOK a little less "optimized" to an outsider who doesn't understand utility and thinks only in terms of special weapons, and you will probably have to weather some criticism of your methods...at first (a subject I know all about). Butthe win and loss column doesn't lie. If you're ALREADY losing badly to Tau Empire and you FEEL like its because there's too much time between the time you get there and the time you can charge... Well... I mean... You've basically already diagnosed your own problem. It's just a willful disregard for that information that would cause you to keep doing it.

My encouragement always is to be open to new ideas. Even if I'm the source.

I've tried Scouts, I've tried Scout Bikes, I've tried Land Speeder Storms, and I've tried Land Raiders. Scouts and Scout Bikes won't be able to deal with a Riptide, even assuming they get into combat. 12" away requires the enemy to not have LOS, and even then you've got units with 4+ armour that aren't allowed to charge on turn 1 and that aren't going to live to turn 2. If they miraculously live, they still have to catch the Riptide, hope the enemy is dumb enough to not simply block the road, and then live through Overwatch.

Land Speeder Storms are AV10 Open-Topped. Even with Jink, that isn't going to live. It takes 8 BS 3 S7 shots to HP out a Jinking LSS on average, and that's not taking pen results into account.

Land Raiders are a bit of a gossip against Tau; either you get lucky and manage to charge them or they Fusion/D it off the table, leaving you down 250 points and with a stranded melee unit.

Drop Pods, along with Skyhammer and a Bastion slingshot, is what I currently run, but even then the Riptide is faster than my infantry and can hide behind other units to keep firing. I'm forced to eat a full turn of everything the Tau army has to throw at me, and I still have to catch up to the Riptide afterwards.

"Play Demi-company" might as we'll be telling me to buy a new army, because GW, in their infinite wisdom, decided that Crusader Squads aren't allowed there.

All your solutions depend on the Riptide not moving and not being covered by anything.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

, even assuming they get into combat. 12" away requires the enemy to not have LOS, and even then you've got units with 4+ armour that aren't allowed to charge on turn 1 and that aren't going to live to turn 2. .

No, they infiltrate 18 and then they can scout to 12". So line of sight doesn't matter for them.

Also, when you spread out correctly, the lasrge blast can hit very few. Cover will protect you from a lot of shooting because the Tau simply cant markerlight EVERY shot even if they wanted to. I think pessimism is just a big factor in these discussions. I've somehow managed to defeat the very army i specialize in with nothing more fancy than fists to the face. It is the one thing they have no smart elleck answer to. I wouldnt even dream of trying to outshoot them. Its a fools errand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If they miraculously live, they still have to catch the Riptide, hope the enemy is dumb enough to not simply block the road, and then live through Overwatch..

Heavy flamers can clear the road and overwatch is a thing so make sure you smash those markerlights within 6" of the Riptide in turn one. You dont have to kill all of them, just those ones.

Multicharge them since they get that overwatch anyways. My advice on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:



Land Speeder Storms are AV10 Open-Topped. Even with Jink, that isn't going to live.

Live? why would you care? thats not why they are there. if they do they are dangerus. If they dont, they drop pod'd your unit with the new formations available. So either way is fine.If you want a world in which no casualties occur, i have some very disappointing nws i will have to share with you. But i think you know that going in. Im not telling you anything new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Drop Pods, along with Skyhammer and a Bastion slingshot, is what I currently run, but even then the Riptide is faster than my infantry and can hide behind other units to keep firing. .

Again: change the weapon they are bringing. theres no rule that says everything has to be a grav or a melta weapons. You know the problem. Youre diagnosing it exactly here. So the solution is also well known to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

"Play Demi-company" might as we'll be telling me to buy a new army, because GW, in their infinite wisdom, decided that Crusader Squads aren't allowed there.
.

Maybe. I think you're overstating things but yeah. you MIGHT have to buy new things. I cant tell you thats not true because I have no idea what yourcollection is like but you just told me you TRIED all the things i told you to so it isnt that small apparently. Lol.

Look. this is the new reality. if your objection basically boil down to "I dont wanna" then i am sorry, theres no amount of advice that will ever matter to you. If you want to be competitive and have an answer, your collection MIGHT indeed need some additions. I cant say thats not going to happen but I can say that not being willing to is a choice no forum should have to account for. It doesnt make my advice WRONG. It just makes you unwilling to DO it. Lol. I do gt that the hobby is expensive in little spurts. this might be one of those for you. I dunno.

Where are you getting all the Heavy Flamers on assault units from anyway?

Are we talking about the same LSSs? The one that carries a 5-man Scout squad?

What weapon in the Skyhammer is a better option than MM or Grav, and why?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Where are you getting all the Heavy Flamers on assault units from anyway?

Are we talking about the same LSSs? The one that carries a 5-man Scout squad?

What weapon in the Skyhammer is a better option than MM or Grav, and why?

Heavy Flamers? Your most basic Tactical Marine gets them. As do numrous others.

The Storm Formation that is now availabe has special rules for allowing the occupants to move quite a bit farther and get out, effectively drop podding them. Same for when they outfank.

The Skyhammer allows an awesome ability. if you wish, you can take the Skyhammer and use it to clear the way for the assault. You can tke a combination of weapons of course.

Warhammer players are very prone to being slaves of symmetry. For some bizarre reason, it seems like players are very stuck on using ALL the same weapon in a unit. This makes sense in some cases, right? If you know the math says "This unit is for killing Land Raiders/Monoliths et al" then you will be left with little choice. MOST units do not have quite so specific a purpose nor do they necessarily need to.

But someone got on a forum at some point and extolled the virtue of the Grav Weapon, the Plasma Rifle or whatevr it is. And you agreed. and you said 'well crap that weapon is GREAT" and you get drunk with the idea of how many Terminators it will crush. You stop considering that you will fight an infinite variety in a tournament and take your chances with four of "whatever".

The reality is, a unit can do a lot of damage just with weight of fire and few weapons if any provide as many hits as a heavy Flamer. Think about it. Truly. How many weapons can REALLY do what a heavy Flamer does? It can hit six to ten at one go in a Skyhammer and that is an amazing number actually. almost nothing BUT flamers can do this because blasts can be uterly mitigated by circular deployment. People call it the "Jancoran formation" around here because i so notable spread that way so frequently. Its a point of amusement for my opponents at timers. Flamers can take advantage of amost any way an enemy tries to go about this. So someone as extreme as I am about it will no doubt cause you a problem, but there are a hundred reasons why this spreading out simply cant be done all the time. Heavy Flamers make you pay for every one of those times.

So if i was to run a Skyhammer, it would depend on what else is in the army. But a pair of Grav guns and a pair of Heavy Flamers sounds pretty darn good at covering up what would otherwise be a USELESS unit againts Guardsmen and Orks etc...

So if you know your troubles with Tau Empire, you know how to fix them. You dont need to be symmetrical with every unit. They dont all have to be the same load outs.

EDIT: side note I employ the same thoughts on Crisis teams. they come with a TL Fusion and a Flamer on mine. That really help in all kinds of ways. Skyhammer units are also going to be in harms way generally and a couple Heavy Flamers on Overwatch? Pretty sweet.

Here's a dumb yet genius skyhammer weapon:
Bolter.
Not heavy bolters, just bolters. lots of them.

Throw around so many "superpinning" tests its not even funny, block overwatch from anything with meaningful overwatch.
Proceed to punch faces with the assaults.

By simply throwing these debuff shots for cheap, you can greatly increase the suitability of the rest of your forces, enable the assault teams to get work down and generally proceed from that point, despite doing no "damage" to cause total mayham.
Do you know how annoying it is knowing you have to wipe out every-single-one of them or else they will keep hitting you with that annoying debuff? and they cost so little! (taking 10 devs per team and squadding them, the dev side is only 350 points, pods included. now you just need to figure out a good config for your super assault marines, personally I'd go bare bones with just a power weapon for the sarges.)

The skyhammer is not OP for it's heavy weapon delivery, there are ways to defend against that.
The biggest value of the skyhammer, is the debuff shots the devs get.

Simplicity is good.

Tactical Squads can't take Heavy Flamers. Neither can anything in the Skyhammer Formation. I believe someone mentioned something about "knowing the rules" earlier (or was that the other Riptide thread)?

I absolutely agree with the pinning from Skyhammer Devastator bolters helping against Tau though. Skyhammer's pretty much the one thing that's keeping my head above the water at this point.

The LSS still has the issue of being paper-thin and, above all else, carrying nothing but 5 Scouts.

Martel732 wrote:
So far i'm liking this list because I routed a necron player with it.

It has good units but it doesn't offer you a lot of flexibility to deploy. Things to watch out for:

- No reserves manipulation in CAD
- 1000+ pts in reserves until T2
- Deathwind deploys on T1 (compulsory), no other Drop Pods

The problem you're facing is that armies with the right firepower can pick apart your list over three turns. If you go second, the enemy will get an entire turn to focus on the Rhinos, an entire turn to focus on the Furioso/Deathwind, and an entire turn to focus on the Vanguard/Priest groups.

If you are committed to Sanguine Wing (~200pts of free gear IS good), I think you are going to need a more survivable deployment concept.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So far i'm liking this list because I routed a necron player with it.

It has good units but it doesn't offer you a lot of flexibility to deploy. Things to watch out for:

- No reserves manipulation in CAD
- 1000+ pts in reserves until T2
- Deathwind deploys on T1 (compulsory), no other Drop Pods

The problem you're facing is that armies with the right firepower can pick apart your list over three turns. If you go second, the enemy will get an entire turn to focus on the Rhinos, an entire turn to focus on the Furioso/Deathwind, and an entire turn to focus on the Vanguard/Priest groups.

If you are committed to Sanguine Wing (~200pts of free gear IS good), I think you are going to need a more survivable deployment concept.

Some points:

I've been considering removing the dreadnought, but people have been focusing it down and leaving the pod with the beacon.

The formation gets to reroll the reserve roll, so it has built in manipulation.

I'm counting on 48" weapons being out of vogue in general. If I'm going second, I won't deploy anything aggressively.

Playing BA is all about picking a problem.

It's 400 pts of free stuff. I don't like reserves, but this is a lot of points.