As the title says, I thought we could get a tactica thread going on Daemonkin. If this has been done already, please have a mod take this down, but I couldn't find anything by searching the forums.

So what are your go-to units? What formation combinations have good synergy? What units outshine others? Share your experience!

I'm doing very well with mine but don't play the conventional MSU style army. I think the codex has potential to be top tier although I some will disagree.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm doing very well with mine but don't play the conventional MSU style army. I think the codex has potential to be top tier although I some will disagree.

Dozer Blade you are on record for saying you think every army can be top tier

You can't argue with success.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm doing very well with mine but don't play the conventional MSU style army. I think the codex has potential to be top tier although I some will disagree.

I can actually kind of agree with you there. I play mine a bit differently too. Do you want to elaborate on how you play yours unconventionally?

What's the consensus on list building these days? Do people go for the Slaughtercult or is CAD the preferred option?

I have a CSM and Daemon army, and am considering expanding it to include more Khorne miniatures to make it Daemonkin. Just wondering where to start outside of the mandatory Gorepack and some Maulers...

Asura Varuna wrote:
What's the consensus on list building these days? Do people go for the Slaughtercult or is CAD the preferred option?

I have a CSM and Daemon army, and am considering expanding it to include more Khorne miniatures to make it Daemonkin. Just wondering where to start outside of the mandatory Gorepack and some Maulers...

I typically go for a MSU approach with a CAD and Gorepack, sometimes with CSM allies for Kharn and a Dreadclaw. I'd definitely say that it can be competitive if played correctly.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm doing very well with mine but don't play the conventional MSU style army. I think the codex has potential to be top tier although I some will disagree.

I can actually kind of agree with you there. I play mine a bit differently too. Do you want to elaborate on how you play yours unconventionally?

Here's an army list I ran versus Nids yesterday:

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/02/khorne-daemonkin-2k-army-list.html

Turned out to be a kill point mission - did quite well.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm doing very well with mine but don't play the conventional MSU style army. I think the codex has potential to be top tier although I some will disagree.

I can actually kind of agree with you there. I play mine a bit differently too. Do you want to elaborate on how you play yours unconventionally?

Here's an army list I ran versus Nids yesterday:

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/02/khorne-daemonkin-2k-army-list.html

Turned out to be a kill point mission - did quite well.

So you take a lot of bezerkers? That is an interesting choice to me. With the icon of wrath, since they already have furious charge, you are paying for the icon just to get the extra point in the combat result and the charge distance reroll? Would you not be able to trim some points by running them as standard CSM with CCWs? Though they'd lose fearless and a point of WS, I suppose. Also, you really load down your bezerker champion. Don't you worry that with that many points loaded into that one model that he could get taken out too easily to be worth the 60+ extra points you dumped on him?

This is why I run as many flesh hounds as I can bring, usually... Being beasts, they get quite a good distance on their charging, and having scout deployment puts them that much closer from the get-go. I noticed you had a lot of them. I'm surprised you didn't run any Bloodthirsters though?

Gorepack is basically the name of the Codex...

The issues being the dex isnt really anything special, although unique to the notion that its Khorne Dex that can summon.... It`s still inferior to any other Summoning method at Chaos`disposal Via Renegades or even pure Tzeechian Armies.

Sure MSU are effective at racking up BT points but you`re still left with the feeling that a 90 point bare boned unit is totally expendable and your are totally throw away. Having models just to watch them die isn't "Fun" Hence the need to abuse formations like the Gorepack. Ive even been to games where certain people complain "Why are you so adamant on spamming Gorepack? Do you really need 20+ Melta for your Khorne army?"

Well, yeah... Because Khorne favors smashy melee units that are apparently expendable en mass... Id rather take the Melta Bikers and guarantee that they kill stuff during my game than just run around watching you kill all my models/units hoping to summon a BT only to watch it die just as fast as I managed to obtain those said Blood Tithe Points.

The book literally pushes you into a msu style. I personally had some success with it. Basically, everything as small as possible and a formation of 15 dogs + min melta bikers.

Unfortunately, csm and zerkers are not great there. Yep, they're playable but mostly cause of rhino - not the dudes.
D-thirster is overpriced imo. It shines against SHV but is vulnerable to pretty much anything else for the price cause of unneeded ini1.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm doing very well with mine but don't play the conventional MSU style army. I think the codex has potential to be top tier although I some will disagree.

I can actually kind of agree with you there. I play mine a bit differently too. Do you want to elaborate on how you play yours unconventionally?

Here's an army list I ran versus Nids yesterday:

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/02/khorne-daemonkin-2k-army-list.html

Turned out to be a kill point mission - did quite well.

So you take a lot of bezerkers? That is an interesting choice to me. With the icon of wrath, since they already have furious charge, you are paying for the icon just to get the extra point in the combat result and the charge distance reroll? Would you not be able to trim some points by running them as standard CSM with CCWs? Though they'd lose fearless and a point of WS, I suppose. Also, you really load down your bezerker champion. Don't you worry that with that many points loaded into that one model that he could get taken out too easily to be worth the 60+ extra points you dumped on him?

This is why I run as many flesh hounds as I can bring, usually... Being beasts, they get quite a good distance on their charging, and having scout deployment puts them that much closer from the get-go. I noticed you had a lot of them. I'm surprised you didn't run any Bloodthirsters though?

I was running one squad of Berzerkers - to me that's not a lot. They have a roll they play and usually die but fulfill a function.

i take the gorepack max it out with msu squads, then take the khorne fist formation then cad with d-axe, cultists and then fill it out with more fleshounds. for 1850 i have around 6x5 fleshounds

Fleshounds/gorepack is really a great way to go. I'm also a fan of Kor'lath for its ability to put opponents into really nasty situations.

Another neat fun bit about the Slaughtercult is the ability to run mass Soul Grinders and Forge/Maulerfiends.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Fleshounds/gorepack is really a great way to go. I'm also a fan of Kor'lath for its ability to put opponents into really nasty situations.

Another neat fun bit about the Slaughtercult is the ability to run mass Soul Grinders and Forge/Maulerfiends.

You mean by taking the Blood Host detachment? It is definitely a powerful boon, getting an extra Blood Tithe point each turn, and being able to spam maulerfiends and soul grinders. Though it doesn't have Objective Secured, does it?

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Fleshounds/gorepack is really a great way to go. I'm also a fan of Kor'lath for its ability to put opponents into really nasty situations.

Another neat fun bit about the Slaughtercult is the ability to run mass Soul Grinders and Forge/Maulerfiends.

You mean by taking the Blood Host detachment? It is definitely a powerful boon, getting an extra Blood Tithe point each turn, and being able to spam maulerfiends and soul grinders. Though it doesn't have Objective Secured, does it?

Oops, yep. Apparently both spelling *and* correct naming are hard. But yeah, there is a definite lack of Ob Sec, if memory serves.

I really love to bring two Blood Host detachments for two automatic Blood tithe points (does it even work this way?).

Dualhost aside, has anyone ever had the same problem of getting TOO MANY blood tithe points a round? Especially when playing bigger games in the 6k range. Usually I rack up so many blood tithe points its ridiculous. I thought there must be a thin line where it´s more efficient to make units bigger and not go the full msu-erryday way. Has anyone found that sweet spot yet? I think my personal record was like 14 tithe points (killed a little lost a LITTLE ). Too bad all the points get spent and everything above 8 is wasted.

Axe of Korlath is a must in almost every game for me. Countless white beards have been grown deciding wheter to shoot my lord or not.

Have yet to run the Slaughtercult, just isn't my thing. Dthirster, maulerfiend, spawn, heldrakes sometimes, and Gorepacks are my faves. I ally in a CSM Khorne lord for axe of blind fury because it wrecks face. Maelstrom cards have been good to me, but overall I haven't had a chance to face anything super cheesy so it's been pleasant.

MSU balanced with the ability to do damage is tricky, hence the meltabikers as pointed out above. I'd love to include more axes of Khorne, they're just too damn expensive.

I've been playing with the idea of adding a Void Shield Generator to my lists to knock a lot of the alpha-strike capability off my opponent's first turn. Has anybody tried this with much success?

I play Daemonkin, but I don't have any Chaos bikers so I have never tried the Gorepack, although from what I've heard everywhere it is the best thing in the codex. I bought my stuff for the army when the book was still brand new (I got the book itself the day it was released), so I didn't realize that the Gorepack was the way to go, or I'd have done things differently. Instead, when I run a Blood Host, I run the Khorne's Bloodstorm formation. It's probably the second best auxiliary formation, and it is the only way to get a Heldrake in a Blood Host detachment. Whenever I decide to expand my Khorne Daemonkin army, I intend to buy some Chaos bikers, more Flesh Hounds, and probably at least two Maulerfiends (of which, like bikers, I currently have none).

Agreed. You need fast and hitty - Bikers, Flesh hounds and Maulerfiends are all excellent.

The damage a Gorepack can do on the charge can't be overstated, especially with blood tithe stacked up.

I'm very excited to try the Fist of Khorne formation. For those that use it, how are you arming the unit? Just naked to save on points, or going balls out and loading the champion with gear?

I always load my champions... not all the way, but at least enough that there's a chance of winning challenges and getting extra points. Khorne Axes are really good, just kind of on the expensive side.

I think the most important upgrades are the ones that upgrade a bloodletter or a bloodcrusher to a character. That way you have somebody to fight challenges with and go for even more Blood Tithe points. I can't tell you how many times I assaulted a tactical squad and murdered the sergeant in a challenge to get double my points as all those AP3 murdered the rest of the unit...

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've been playing with the idea of adding a Void Shield Generator to my lists to knock a lot of the alpha-strike capability off my opponent's first turn. Has anybody tried this with much success?

I've not tried it against things like drop pod alpha strike but I've used a VSG to great effect against more shooty armies like tau. You can move up your hound units and conga line them back to the projected shield bubble. Inevitably the shields go down and the VSG is only really effective for the first turn or so but it definitely saves more points than it costs and really helps out getting into charge range safely.

Damn, that sounds like it helps a ton but also like it would feel very dirty.

Why would that feel dirty? Anybody can take one. Most ITC format events allow you to run a maximum of 3 Detachments, which would easily allow for a Bloodhost and a Fortification allotment.

The only thing I need to do is make an appropriate model. I want to do it right so it will take me a little bit...

Not taking one, but using the conga line to keep one in the void shield zone and thus affect the whole unit. I own a VSG myself, have yet to assemble it/use it though.

1500 point list I am taking this weekend:
Charnel Cohort:
Basic Herald
Blood Crushers with squad leader and banner
2 squads of bloodletters with squad leaders
3 units of five flesh hounds
3 skull cannons
CAD
Chaos lord with chain axe CC and melta bombs
2 squads of cultists with cc and pistols
maulerfiend with magma cutters
Soul Grinder with Plegm Bombardment

Tourney has banned LoW all together.

I love this style of list, there is a total of 20 blood tithe points, I am GOING to get a blood thirster.

I keep the herald and blood letters in reserve to back field deep strike, I always try and get the infiltrate WL trait, try and get as many units up field as possible with scout and running.

Three cannons and a soul grinder put down a punishing amount of S8 large blast.

 sfshilo wrote:
1500 point list I am taking this weekend:
Charnel Cohort:
Basic Herald
Blood Crushers with squad leader and banner
2 squads of bloodletters with squad leaders
3 units of five flesh hounds
3 skull cannons
CAD
Chaos lord with chain axe CC and melta bombs
2 squads of cultists with cc and pistols
maulerfiend with magma cutters
Soul Grinder with Plegm Bombardment

Tourney has banned LoW all together.

I love this style of list, there is a total of 20 blood tithe points, I am GOING to get a blood thirster.

I keep the herald and blood letters in reserve to back field deep strike, I always try and get the infiltrate WL trait, try and get as many units up field as possible with scout and running.

Three cannons and a soul grinder put down a punishing amount of S8 large blast.

Not bad! Of course, you only get the bloodthirster if you pass a LD test.... so hopefully you have good luck because those cultists have terrible LD! All those skull cannons look awesome though, I haven't tried any yet myself but I can imagine that many S8 large blasts, coupled with all the AP 3 hellblades, makes SM players quake in their boots


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you wanted to really play on those tithe points, you could alternatively set it up as a Blood Host detachment with a CAD. This would give you the benefit of the slaughtercult (doubling down your benefits from the Tithe each turn) and give you an additional point at the start of each of your turns... The only thing you'd lose in the restructure is the Possessed tax, which you could make up for by dropping a single unit of flesh hounds. Although the flesh hounds are far superior to the possessed, it might be worth it to get all those added benefits?

I might just be biased to taking slaughtercults though. I can't help it... being able to maintain FNP has spoiled me.

The slaughter is nice, but at 1500 the possesed really do not fit.

In 1850 i go with the slaughter cult instead as the possesed fit nicely.

Another tactic I have used against compact shooty armies like Admech or tau riptide lists is to move maximum and run maximum EVERYTHING turn one.

Chariots move 18 inches doing this and since they are av 12 are a threat to any infantry that are sub s7. What it does is put 100% of your very assaulty army on THEIR side of the table which most gun line players do not know how to handle. Most cannot deal with this as MSU negates their super shooty units.

Great insight to KDK - thanks for sharing !

Ok I got a question... I'm sitting on a Blood Throne / Skull Cannon kit... which is more useful and why?

Skull Cannon all the way! Strength 8 large blast is deadly, even if the AP value is kind of meh. Plus it makes it so your units without Assault Grenades can charge enemies in cover without being gimped.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Skull Cannon all the way! Strength 8 large blast is deadly, even if the AP value is kind of meh. Plus it makes it so your units without Assault Grenades can charge enemies in cover without being gimped.

That's good, because that was the way I was leaning. If I put the kit together right, I can squeeze a basic herald out of the kit in addition to the cannon, which can be useful to plug in as a cheap HQ.

I built mine as a Skull Cannon mainly for summoning purposes. They are great for that. I have the Herald from the kit, although I'm debating on whether to put him on a base or convert a Juggernaut from an old WotC Star Wars Junk Golem miniature and put him on that.

Building a skullcannon is the only way to get a plastic Herald afaik. I put mine on a spare Juggernaught from the Start collecting Khorne Daemon boxes http://i.imgur.com/ldKHVQ5.jpg.

You can field up to 4 cannons in a Charnel Cohort for example.

I play it as a MSU army mostly and I am having major success with it. Last saturday I scored the most points at a tournament, where both Tau and Eldar were represented, simply due to the fact that I had board control and they couldn't get rid of me fast enough.

The 1850 point list was this:

Slaughtercult 1:
- Chaos Lord (Juggernaught, Blood-forged armor, Sigil, powerfist)
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Slaughtercult 2:
- Herald on Juggernaught
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Gorepack
- 3 x Bikers
- 3 x Bikers
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds

Total:
1848 points.

With so many fast units, so many wounds and a smart play in turn 1 with cover, it takes an absolutely stunning amount of firepower to get that list down. Due to the many small units, buffs such as FnP and +1A can be devastating. You have STR 6 on many units as well, so you can take most things down (your major weakness being AV13/14 walkers and flyers) and even if you can't kill it, you can tank it with your hounds. Essentially, the opponent has 1 shooting phase if you start and 2 if they start, and then they have your in their face - That can stress out even the most hardboiled veteran, as they have to choose what to focus down; You hounds or your spawn.

Save a few unit Bloodletters in reserve and deepstrike them in later in the game for that extra mayhem and strategy as you know by then where you need to focus your power.

Enjoy the slaughter

I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

My Juggerlord killed one in Close Combat with his fist, but that's the only reliable way to kill them. Otherwise just ignore them entirely and if they get close, tarpit them with dogs. Being fearless, they will hold it for 2-3 turns, unless you're unlucky with stomps. By that time you can have more summoned in or just throw some bloodletters at it as well.

You don't need to kill it - Just make sure it's worthless for your opponent.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

You still only get 1 point, as it just means you are running the decurion - So no matter the amount of Slaughtercults, you only get 1 point at the start of your turn. And yes, both Slaughtercults get a secondary boon - You can even choose two different secondaries, as the secondary "applies to all units in the formation". So if you buy a expensive boon at the start of your turn, you can pick'n'choose for each cult, depending on your needs

 Nordicus wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

My Juggerlord killed one in Close Combat with his fist, but that's the only reliable way to kill them. Otherwise just ignore them entirely and if they get close, tarpit them with dogs. Being fearless, they will hold it for 2-3 turns, unless you're unlucky with stomps. By that time you can have more summoned in or just throw some bloodletters at it as well.

You don't need to kill it - Just make sure it's worthless for your opponent.

Your other option is to throw a blood thirster at it, by keeping it busy with dogs and/or cultists you can get to your 8 tithe pretty quick.

Vomikron is spot on about this army and board control, you can ignore most of the big baddies as they are so preoccupied trying to kill Khorne dogs they never get around to kill things that matter. And if they do ignore the dogs, well the dogs are too fast to ignore lol.

I am really opinionated on the slaughtercult, that amount of possessed is a really big point sink if you are playing anything 1500 or below; 1850 and up they seem to do really well as you have enough points to have them AND flood the board with units. The ONLY issue I have with that list is you are going to struggle against any Imperial MSU list like marines or foot guard that can match you in units, but have more firepower in each unit. (Hence my propensity for Cannons lol.)

Cannons cannot be stressed enough, I've heard too many Khorne players shun them because: 1. They use to suck. 2. "You can get them for free" (But then you are NOT getting the blood thirster or khorne dogs?) 3. It's AP5.

A rundown of what the Cannon can do:
1. Ignore Cover with S8 Large Blast
2. AV 12, most units will not be able to hurt this in CC
3. 12" Move + 2D6 Charge with D6 S7 Hammer of wrath and 4 S5 AP3 attacks on the charge? YES PLEASE.
4. No rider, so in CC they HAVE to attack AV 12 front.
5. It cannot be immobilized, cool
6. Oh you are stunned/weaponless/assaulted? You are Khorne, get in the damn fight lol.
7. All your daemon forces do not have grenades, NO PROBLEM HERE's A SKULL.
8. It eats people, and then gains a Hullpoint back.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

The trick is to use two Blood host detachments with one slaughtercult each, instead of one Blood Host detachment with two Slaughtercults. Or is there any rule that forbids taking two detachments of the same kind?

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

The trick is to use two Blood host detachments with one slaughtercult each, instead of one Blood Host detachment with two Slaughtercults. Or is there any rule that forbids taking two detachments of the same kind?

As far as I know, you can take two detachments of the same kind. That's why it's common to see double CAD army lists. At least, according to ITC rulings, which many tournaments seem to use these days. That being said, it may be different for Decurion-level detachments, I'd have to dig around and find out. I think in most cases those types of detachments are too big to take two of in a normal list, but a double Blood Host is probably doable in a KDK list if you minimize the toys you take.

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

The trick is to use two Blood host detachments with one slaughtercult each, instead of one Blood Host detachment with two Slaughtercults. Or is there any rule that forbids taking two detachments of the same kind?

I'm no big city rules lawyer, but I see no reason why you couldn't do that.

Must... resist... the... urge... to triplehost for guaranteed turn 1 FNP

The cheapest I could run triple bloodhost is 1400 points, and 450 of those points are sunk into possessed. And that's taking Helbrutes as the auxiliary units... hardly effective. I think Dual slaughtercult is the highest I'd ever run (if even that), unless we are talking about Apocalypse type games.

I frequently do see Daemonkin across the table. My experience has been that they struggle against me. I haven't lost a game in ten matches against them.

I cannot explain why because they do seem on the surface to have some fantastic rules. They really do MSU well. I don't know how to explain the losses other than to report them. I play a miriad of armies too, so I mean I have faced it with Night Lords, Dark Eldar, Militarum Tempestus, Tau Empire and Adeptas Sororitas.

In all those matches, it just seemed that the Blood Tythe points weren't giving enough return. Its a very cool and fluffy concept so I enjoy the games but....

Sad but true. Other than the D-thirster and maybe a charged up Goredrinker, I don't think we're great at dealing damage. Lots of low strength AP - attacks, but those only go so far.

I guess I'm just weird because I don't actually play mine as MSU as much as some people. I like to maximize the number of Bloodthirsters I take, (one with the slaughtercult, one as a Commander, etc) and let the Bloodhost do more of my Tithe generation for me, as well as trying to rack up kills from my champion units to get Skull Throne tithe points. It's worked really well for me so far, the only thing that gives me grief is that Objective Secured is hard to get on some of your best units. I'd really love a Gorepack (or even a Brazen Onslaught) that is ObSec.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I guess I'm just weird because I don't actually play mine as MSU as much as some people. I like to maximize the number of Bloodthirsters I take, (one with the slaughtercult, one as a Commander, etc) and let the Bloodhost do more of my Tithe generation for me, as well as trying to rack up kills from my champion units to get Skull Throne tithe points. It's worked really well for me so far, the only thing that gives me grief is that Objective Secured is hard to get on some of your best units. I'd really love a Gorepack (or even a Brazen Onslaught) that is ObSec.

Can you post your list here so i can steal it and show my regular opponents what you're doing? I'm always interested in learning and I am sure any help will be appreciated by him at this point.

Sure! Which size list did you want? I have played mostly 1850 or 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I'll just tell you my general strategy. I take a Blood Host, including a Slaughtercult (with a BT as a HQ, 10-man Bloodletter squads for the troops), a Lord of Slaughter D-BT (1 per slaughtercult is allowed), and an Maulerfiend to fill out the War Engine slot for the Blood Host.

Then I take an CAD with a D-BT as the HQ, sprinkle in my other units for flavor, like a 10-model unit of Flesh Hounds and a few Bloodcrushers. I keep regular 10-man Cultist squads (robbed from DV) in both the Blood Host and the CAD, as their champions can be useful sacrificial lambs for either more Blood Tithe points (for dying in a challenge) or as a meat-suit for any summoned Bloodthirsters to spring from.

I upgrade every unit that can take an upgraded champion, they are only a handful of points each and useful for generating tithe points from challenges (or losing them).

I don't start many units in reserve unless I feel I have to. The over-saturation of targets helps make it hard for my opponent to determine what to focus on. 2 D-thirsters on the board are a huge threat, and the regular thirster isn't much of a slouch either, since it can instant-death enemy characters with the axe before they get to roll if you are lucky (also generating Tithe points).

Having the Slaughtercult is vital, because it allows me to utilize all those Blood Tithe points more effectively. I can maintain FNP for darn near the whole game, and still summon units occasionally. If having 3 Bloodthirsters running around on the board is brutal, having 4 or 5 is just cruel and sadistic.

There are some caveats though.

1. I have faced primarily other assault-oriented armies, such as Orks, Tyranids, and Space Wolves (we are all players from back in 5th edition when assaulting was fun).

2. I have not won every game I played with my KDK army. I've won maybe 2/3 games. Usually I lose because of the decision to assault an objective, thinking that I will be able to clear a unit from it easily enough, but having horrible dice rolls and slogging it out for 2-3 more combat phases than I had anticipated.

3. I haven't played against truly shooty armies yet like IG or Tau. I'd probably have to adjust my strategies for those.

That's the gist of it.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Sure! Which size list did you want? I have played mostly 1850 or 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I'll just tell you my general strategy. I take a Blood Host, including a Slaughtercult (with a BT as a HQ, 10-man Bloodletter squads for the troops), a Lord of Slaughter D-BT (1 per slaughtercult is allowed), and an Maulerfiend to fill out the War Engine slot for the Blood Host.

Then I take an CAD with a D-BT as the HQ, sprinkle in my other units for flavor, like a 10-model unit of Flesh Hounds and a few Bloodcrushers. I keep regular 10-man Cultist squads (robbed from DV) in both the Blood Host and the CAD, as their champions can be useful sacrificial lambs for either more Blood Tithe points (for dying in a challenge) or as a meat-suit for any summoned Bloodthirsters to spring from.

I upgrade every unit that can take an upgraded champion, they are only a handful of points each and useful for generating tithe points from challenges (or losing them).

I don't start many units in reserve unless I feel I have to. The over-saturation of targets helps make it hard for my opponent to determine what to focus on. 2 D-thirsters on the board are a huge threat, and the regular thirster isn't much of a slouch either, since it can instant-death enemy characters with the axe before they get to roll if you are lucky (also generating Tithe points).

Having the Slaughtercult is vital, because it allows me to utilize all those Blood Tithe points more effectively. I can maintain FNP for darn near the whole game, and still summon units occasionally. If having 3 Bloodthirsters running around on the board is brutal, having 4 or 5 is just cruel and sadistic.

There are some caveats though.

1. I have faced primarily other assault-oriented armies, such as Orks, Tyranids, and Space Wolves (we are all players from back in 5th edition when assaulting was fun).

2. I have not won every game I played with my KDK army. I've won maybe 2/3 games. Usually I lose because of the decision to assault an objective, thinking that I will be able to clear a unit from it easily enough, but having horrible dice rolls and slogging it out for 2-3 more combat phases than I had anticipated.

3. I haven't played against truly shooty armies yet like IG or Tau. I'd probably have to adjust my strategies for those.

That's the gist of it.

could you seek such a game out and do a batrep? I want to be able to show him, win or lose, how he can adjust to that. I am truly not a Chaos Daemons fan and its one of only thre armies I don't own so its the one thing i can't advise him on as far as being on your side of the table.

Video batrep is even cooler or with pics but words will do as long as its clear enough fro him to follow why you did what you did.

now you can play a more effective MSU (korne also with his murder horde) with demons formations so suppose no reasons to play demonkin, just my opinion.

I've found that the whole thing basically operates as Codex: Gorepack. Gorepack is one of the best formations in the game.

2 D-Thirsters, a bunch of Bloodletters at MSU, and a Gorepack with Bikers carrying a bunch of Melta goes wonderful.

I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

You could just hold them in reserves

 Jancoran wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Sure! Which size list did you want? I have played mostly 1850 or 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I'll just tell you my general strategy. I take a Blood Host, including a Slaughtercult (with a BT as a HQ, 10-man Bloodletter squads for the troops), a Lord of Slaughter D-BT (1 per slaughtercult is allowed), and an Maulerfiend to fill out the War Engine slot for the Blood Host.

Then I take an CAD with a D-BT as the HQ, sprinkle in my other units for flavor, like a 10-model unit of Flesh Hounds and a few Bloodcrushers. I keep regular 10-man Cultist squads (robbed from DV) in both the Blood Host and the CAD, as their champions can be useful sacrificial lambs for either more Blood Tithe points (for dying in a challenge) or as a meat-suit for any summoned Bloodthirsters to spring from.

I upgrade every unit that can take an upgraded champion, they are only a handful of points each and useful for generating tithe points from challenges (or losing them).

I don't start many units in reserve unless I feel I have to. The over-saturation of targets helps make it hard for my opponent to determine what to focus on. 2 D-thirsters on the board are a huge threat, and the regular thirster isn't much of a slouch either, since it can instant-death enemy characters with the axe before they get to roll if you are lucky (also generating Tithe points).

Having the Slaughtercult is vital, because it allows me to utilize all those Blood Tithe points more effectively. I can maintain FNP for darn near the whole game, and still summon units occasionally. If having 3 Bloodthirsters running around on the board is brutal, having 4 or 5 is just cruel and sadistic.

There are some caveats though.

1. I have faced primarily other assault-oriented armies, such as Orks, Tyranids, and Space Wolves (we are all players from back in 5th edition when assaulting was fun).

2. I have not won every game I played with my KDK army. I've won maybe 2/3 games. Usually I lose because of the decision to assault an objective, thinking that I will be able to clear a unit from it easily enough, but having horrible dice rolls and slogging it out for 2-3 more combat phases than I had anticipated.

3. I haven't played against truly shooty armies yet like IG or Tau. I'd probably have to adjust my strategies for those.

That's the gist of it.

could you seek such a game out and do a batrep? I want to be able to show him, win or lose, how he can adjust to that. I am truly not a Chaos Daemons fan and its one of only thre armies I don't own so its the one thing i can't advise him on as far as being on your side of the table.

Video batrep is even cooler or with pics but words will do as long as its clear enough fro him to follow why you did what you did.

I do have a game coming up on Saturday... I could try to do a batrep, but I'm not very good at them.

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

Well for starters, I would not run them as a single unit, to force split fire as often as possible. You can run 8 separate War Engines with a single Blood Host detachment, which leaves plenty of room for cannons and maulerfiends both if you are so inclined. Secondly, I'd deploy them behind LOS-blocking terrain such as a tall building or hills, especially if I knew I wasn't getting first turn. Otherwise I'd probably keep them in reserves.

blackmage wrote:now you can play a more effective MSU (korne also with his murder horde) with demons formations so suppose no reasons to play demonkin, just my opinion.

Did you have any reasoning/supporting evidence behind that, or....?

 sfshilo wrote:
I am really opinionated on the slaughtercult, that amount of possessed is a really big point sink if you are playing anything 1500 or below; 1850 and up they seem to do really well as you have enough points to have them AND flood the board with units. The ONLY issue I have with that list is you are going to struggle against any Imperial MSU list like marines or foot guard that can match you in units, but have more firepower in each unit. (Hence my propensity for Cannons lol.)

While I realize that most people don't like the possessed, I wouldn't underestimate that unit when it comes to the tax of the slaughtercult. A few reasons why:

- They are both Marines & Daemons, so the get furious charge, counter-attack AND rage at the same time. This give a normal possessed 4 STR 6 attacks on the charge and 1/3 chance of AP3. That is Death Company level of nasty.

- They are typically ignored by the enemy army, as they have 100 hounds and daemons in their face by the end of turn 1. It's a excellent backfield unit that can slowly move up and they can, and will, kill anything that moves past midfield as your opponent is busy laying down fire on all the rush units.

- Being part of the Slaughtercult gives them 2 boons each turn, for the price of one. Use the +1 Attack for the entire army, and Fnp on the Slaughtercult; You know have a unit composed of 5 guys with 3+/5++ save, 5+ FnP, 5 x STR 6 attacks on the charge, a chance of either having +1I and +1A or AP3 and they cause fear. That is brutal.

Don't rush them forward, but keep them in the backline and move them up. I have had my possessed be a gamechanger in turn 4 and 5, as the opponent totally underestimated and ignored them. It should be noted, that I usually run 2 small Slaughtercults instead of 1 big, as I prefer to have more Chaos Spawn and Juggerheralds/-Lords.

I have had my possessed be a gamechanger by turn 4-5 in many of my games (Highlight being 5 of them taken down a Baneblade by glancing hits alone). They can be very usefull

blackmage wrote:
now you can play a more effective MSU (korne also with his murder horde) with demons formations so suppose no reasons to play demonkin, just my opinion.

Great opinion, well supported and shows you play KDK

On a real note:
I dont think the Murderhorde will replace KDK, I feel out of the new daemon formations khorne has some of the weaker ones (still good but just not as good as the other chaos god ones) and the tax to get the corrupted objectives is a bit too steep for my liking. Another thing that makes KDK stand above normal Khorne Daemons is the fact that there is no daemonic instability, fearless bloodletters, hounds, and the like are truly a stong asset. KDK is a strong army, and will be so long as you can play it at the skill level it requires. Daemons in general have always been an army that required some decent skills whether you are managing all the gifts, warp storm, and power tables properly, or knowing your combos and how units interact.

KDK also has the advantage of still getting some of the best CSM units without the need for a different detachment or source so you can still ally in daemons, its probably the best way to run CSM in general unless you are fishing for bel'akor (overrated imo), a black mace DP, or Kharn (who is underrated imo). So salty about Kharn and skarbrand not being in the KDK book.

Edit: Also the new daemon stuff just dropped, to come out and just assume they will play a better MSU is a fallacy, things need to be played a bit more than a weekend to truly see how they will stack up.

I definitely agree it's a better way to run CSM. I feel like you get most of the units you want from CSM codex anyway, with the Tithe table to boost them as a bonus. Mark of Khorne cultists with FNP are no slouch for the points!

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

Well to be fair this can be done from 48" away too by all kinds of armies. So reserves is really a good idea

 Nordicus wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I am really opinionated on the slaughtercult, that amount of possessed is a really big point sink if you are playing anything 1500 or below; 1850 and up they seem to do really well as you have enough points to have them AND flood the board with units. The ONLY issue I have with that list is you are going to struggle against any Imperial MSU list like marines or foot guard that can match you in units, but have more firepower in each unit. (Hence my propensity for Cannons lol.)

While I realize that most people don't like the possessed, I wouldn't underestimate that unit when it comes to the tax of the slaughtercult. A few reasons why:

- They are both Marines & Daemons, so the get furious charge, counter-attack AND rage at the same time. This give a normal possessed 4 STR 6 attacks on the charge and 1/3 chance of AP3. That is Death Company level of nasty.

- They are typically ignored by the enemy army, as they have 100 hounds and daemons in their face by the end of turn 1. It's a excellent backfield unit that can slowly move up and they can, and will, kill anything that moves past midfield as your opponent is busy laying down fire on all the rush units.

- Being part of the Slaughtercult gives them 2 boons each turn, for the price of one. Use the +1 Attack for the entire army, and Fnp on the Slaughtercult; You know have a unit composed of 5 guys with 3+/5++ save, 5+ FnP, 5 x STR 6 attacks on the charge, a chance of either having +1I and +1A or AP3 and they cause fear. That is brutal.

Don't rush them forward, but keep them in the backline and move them up. I have had my possessed be a gamechanger in turn 4 and 5, as the opponent totally underestimated and ignored them. It should be noted, that I usually run 2 small Slaughtercults instead of 1 big, as I prefer to have more Chaos Spawn and Juggerheralds/-Lords.

I have had my possessed be a gamechanger by turn 4-5 in many of my games (Highlight being 5 of them taken down a Baneblade by glancing hits alone). They can be very usefull

I am fully aware how well they do, just trying to let people know that at sub 1850 games they are going to be a tough unit to utilize in competative games.

Also these guys make awesome possesed:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Khorne-Bloodbound-Skullreapers

 sfshilo wrote:


I am fully aware how well they do, just trying to let people know that at sub 1850 games they are going to be a tough unit to utilize in competative games.

Also these guys make awesome possesed:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Khorne-Bloodbound-Skullreapers

I´m using those for Berzerkers. I´m modelled them with dualaxes cause it looks awesome.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Khorne-Bloodbound-Blood-Warriors
just need to get some chaos backpacks

Also Gal Vorbak for possessed (if you can afford it ugh...)
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Word-Bearers-Legion-Gal-Vorbak

I have been reading these posts and do love all the great feedback! I have been running KDK now for the last 10 games and have gone 8 - 2 with them. The only army I have really struggled with is Eldar Seer stars. I cannot over come all the Psychic powers.

I have seen questions about how to deal with Knights. And I have recently played 3 armies with knights. What I have been able ot do each time is throw multiple Maulerfiends at them. The last game I played, I was playing against two Chaos knights. i had both destroyed by turn 3. I assaulted 1 with a D-Thirster and a Maulerfiend, and I assaulted the other 1 with three Mauler fiends. (All the Mauler fiends had Lasher Tendrils) The knights only got 1 attack each and could not overcome the amount of str 10 and str D attacks. I did lose my D'Thirster and a Maulerfiend to the 1 explosion, but otherwise i took out over 800 pts of his army. So my answer are throw Lasher Maulerfiends at them!

i need advice on how to deal with Psychic Stars. These ruin my day!

Maulerfiends will strike last against Knights, so even if you use Lasher Tendrils you need to be prepared to possibly still lose the combat, not to mention that Knights have decent weaponry.

Gorepack is still the gold standard. Equip all your Bikers with Melta Guns, a Combi-Melta, and a Melta Bomb. With just maybe two other Bikers to catch wounds you can still deal with the Knight alright.

KnightScion wrote:
I have been reading these posts and do love all the great feedback! I have been running KDK now for the last 10 games and have gone 8 - 2 with them. The only army I have really struggled with is Eldar Seer stars. I cannot over come all the Psychic powers.

I have seen questions about how to deal with Knights. And I have recently played 3 armies with knights. What I have been able ot do each time is throw multiple Maulerfiends at them. The last game I played, I was playing against two Chaos knights. i had both destroyed by turn 3. I assaulted 1 with a D-Thirster and a Maulerfiend, and I assaulted the other 1 with three Mauler fiends. (All the Mauler fiends had Lasher Tendrils) The knights only got 1 attack each and could not overcome the amount of str 10 and str D attacks. I did lose my D'Thirster and a Maulerfiend to the 1 explosion, but otherwise i took out over 800 pts of his army. So my answer are throw Lasher Maulerfiends at them!

i need advice on how to deal with Psychic Stars. These ruin my day!

Well there isn't much we can do in the way of counteracting psykers directly, save taking lots of Flesh Hounds (since they have collars) or taking the Brazen Rune (can force a perils on an unlucky psyker, but it's not 100 percent guaranteed). I think your best bet is to try and kill them outright, perhaps with Skull Cannons (S8 Large blasts could take out a couple of psykers grouped together) or with your Heldrakes/Forgefiends (S8 autocannons) during the shooting phase, or just assault them with Bloodletters. Be careful assaulting them with multi-wound models, as most psykers have Force Weapons and can instant-kill their opponents if you don't have Eternal Warrior, which is hard to come by in this codex. Tarpitting them with a large group of cheap cultists is also an option, but probably not one that will have much affect. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, anybody else have more advice?

counter it with another knight , you can easily ally one

I've yet to play with Daemonkin but I can't say I've ever been impressed when fighting against them.

I've shot them off the board the three times I played my IG against them, and I've beaten them into submission with CC every time I've used my Daemon lists. There's just nothing Daemonkin can really do against invisibility, cursed earth and the grimoire.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I've yet to play with Daemonkin but I can't say I've ever been impressed when fighting against them.

I've shot them off the board the three times I played my IG against them, and I've beaten them into submission with CC every time I've used my Daemon lists. There's just nothing Daemonkin can really do against invisibility, cursed earth and the grimoire.

This is exactly what I was talking about, Invisability completely stumps my combat. Needing Sixes to hit really takes a toll. Cursed earth and the grimoire also make all those attacks feel useless when they have a 2++ rerollable invun. I cant shoot template weapons at then due to invis and regular shooting is a waste as well.

There's not much you are going to be able to do without bringing in some allies on that one. Maybe ally some Tzeentch daemons, or CSM sorcerors?

Ally in Be'lakor. He brings guaranteed Invis, and you only need to take one min CSM cultist unit to get him in an allied detachment. Let him use Invis on a D-thirster or large unit of Hounds (preferably with a Juggerlord or Juggerherald attached), then Shrouding on something else that is closing with the enemy, and then if he has any warp charge dice remaining try to cast Shriek on an enemy unit. He's 350 points of awesome; just remember that psyker-heavy lists can probably deny him with relative ease.

 Nordicus wrote:
I play it as a MSU army mostly and I am having major success with it. Last saturday I scored the most points at a tournament, where both Tau and Eldar were represented, simply due to the fact that I had board control and they couldn't get rid of me fast enough.

The 1850 point list was this:

Slaughtercult 1:
- Chaos Lord (Juggernaught, Blood-forged armor, Sigil, powerfist)
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Slaughtercult 2:
- Herald on Juggernaught
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Gorepack
- 3 x Bikers
- 3 x Bikers
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds

Total:
1848 points.

With so many fast units, so many wounds and a smart play in turn 1 with cover, it takes an absolutely stunning amount of firepower to get that list down. Due to the many small units, buffs such as FnP and +1A can be devastating. You have STR 6 on many units as well, so you can take most things down (your major weakness being AV13/14 walkers and flyers) and even if you can't kill it, you can tank it with your hounds. Essentially, the opponent has 1 shooting phase if you start and 2 if they start, and then they have your in their face - That can stress out even the most hardboiled veteran, as they have to choose what to focus down; You hounds or your spawn.

Save a few unit Bloodletters in reserve and deepstrike them in later in the game for that extra mayhem and strategy as you know by then where you need to focus your power.

Enjoy the slaughter

Is this list legal? In a blood host detachment you need an aux for every core. Or are those only separate Formation detachments?

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

 Nordicus wrote:
I play it as a MSU army mostly and I am having major success with it. Last saturday I scored the most points at a tournament, where both Tau and Eldar were represented, simply due to the fact that I had board control and they couldn't get rid of me fast enough.

The 1850 point list was this:

Slaughtercult 1:
- Chaos Lord (Juggernaught, Blood-forged armor, Sigil, powerfist)
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Slaughtercult 2:
- Herald on Juggernaught
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Gorepack
- 3 x Bikers
- 3 x Bikers
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds

Total:
1848 points.

With so many fast units, so many wounds and a smart play in turn 1 with cover, it takes an absolutely stunning amount of firepower to get that list down. Due to the many small units, buffs such as FnP and +1A can be devastating. You have STR 6 on many units as well, so you can take most things down (your major weakness being AV13/14 walkers and flyers) and even if you can't kill it, you can tank it with your hounds. Essentially, the opponent has 1 shooting phase if you start and 2 if they start, and then they have your in their face - That can stress out even the most hardboiled veteran, as they have to choose what to focus down; You hounds or your spawn.

Save a few unit Bloodletters in reserve and deepstrike them in later in the game for that extra mayhem and strategy as you know by then where you need to focus your power.

Enjoy the slaughter

Is this list legal? In a blood host detachment you need an aux for every core. Or are those only separate Formation detachments?

You are correct. It wouldn't be legal, unless he took one of the slaughtercults as a separate detachment, unaffiliated with the Blood Host. Or if he took them as separate formations, none of them in a Blood Host at all. Though really there is no reason to not make one slaughtercult and the gorepack into a blood host...

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

 Nordicus wrote:
I play it as a MSU army mostly and I am having major success with it. Last saturday I scored the most points at a tournament, where both Tau and Eldar were represented, simply due to the fact that I had board control and they couldn't get rid of me fast enough.

The 1850 point list was this:

Slaughtercult 1:
- Chaos Lord (Juggernaught, Blood-forged armor, Sigil, powerfist)
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Slaughtercult 2:
- Herald on Juggernaught
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Gorepack
- 3 x Bikers
- 3 x Bikers
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds

Total:
1848 points.

With so many fast units, so many wounds and a smart play in turn 1 with cover, it takes an absolutely stunning amount of firepower to get that list down. Due to the many small units, buffs such as FnP and +1A can be devastating. You have STR 6 on many units as well, so you can take most things down (your major weakness being AV13/14 walkers and flyers) and even if you can't kill it, you can tank it with your hounds. Essentially, the opponent has 1 shooting phase if you start and 2 if they start, and then they have your in their face - That can stress out even the most hardboiled veteran, as they have to choose what to focus down; You hounds or your spawn.

Save a few unit Bloodletters in reserve and deepstrike them in later in the game for that extra mayhem and strategy as you know by then where you need to focus your power.

Enjoy the slaughter

Is this list legal? In a blood host detachment you need an aux for every core. Or are those only separate Formation detachments?

You are correct. It wouldn't be legal, unless he took one of the slaughtercults as a separate detachment, unaffiliated with the Blood Host. Or if he took them as separate formations, none of them in a Blood Host at all. Though really there is no reason to not make one slaughtercult and the gorepack into a blood host...

You could easily make it to two legal blood host detachments by splitting the gorepack into two packs (add 2x3 more bikers) or add a single war-engine. Reduce some flesh hounds here and there.

I ran it as a Bloodhost (Chaos lord Slaughtercult and Gorepack) and a separate Slaughtercult formation (Herald) - I should have pointed that out, I apologize

 Nordicus wrote:
I ran it as a Bloodhost (Chaos lord Slaughtercult and Gorepack) and a separate Slaughtercult formation (Herald) - I should have pointed that out, I apologize

Never thought of running a slaughtercult formation alone. You won´t receive the 2nd automatic BTP but still get the 2nd boon.. Still good. Think I´m gonna give that list a try next time.

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

 Nordicus wrote:
I ran it as a Bloodhost (Chaos lord Slaughtercult and Gorepack) and a separate Slaughtercult formation (Herald) - I should have pointed that out, I apologize

Never thought of running a slaughtercult formation alone. You won´t receive the 2nd automatic BTP but still get the 2nd boon.. Still good. Think I´m gonna give that list a try next time.

Aye, you only get 1 BTP per turn, but honestly at 1850 points you won't need any more anyway. It's a very fun and aggresive list - I hope you have fun with it!

Has anyone tried using the Forgeworld Chaos Knight with mark of Khorne as a LoW choice in KDK? For the points, it seems like it might contribute more to the fight in turns 1 and 2 than a Bloodthirster.

I've been using a chaos Paladin knight of khorne with great success. I even take a small ally of daemons to get a herorld on juggar with exhaulted reward and a 7 man dog pack for protection to throw grimore on the knight. Pretty much makes him unkillable to anything but a 6 on the D...providing the grimore goes off. Lots of points to invest. The dirge caster on the knight is also a very strong bonus to this army. Finished 4th in battle points @ Da Boyz using a khorne knight.

Add in a Chaos lord with axe of ruin, gore pack formation with max dog units and mauler fiends to taste and you have a pretty fast and deadly list.

Here is a list I've been using at 1850 with ITC rules (bloodthirsters/princes come in on the ground when summoned) Lord is there to summon prince once you get 7 tithes to get prince and thirster bonus.

Lord - juggar, axe of ruin
Cultist
bloodletters
mauler
mauler - lasher
Paladin knight - dirge, khorne
Gorepack
bikes - melta
bikes - melta
5 dogs
5 dogs
5 dogs
7 dogs - Lord goes here (unit of 8 for khorne)
Daemon Ally
Herald of khorne, juggar, exhaulted
nurglings
7 dogs - herald here for giving out grimore

The place I struggle the most seems to be low-points-limit games. I have an escalation tournament coming up, and a friend helped me try out a 750 list for it. I took a Slaughtercult with bloodletters and a Bloodthirster HQ, with a Forgefiend tacked on for some distance shooting. So I ran it as a Blood Host. Luckily my friend didn't take much armor, or I wouldn't have been able to even put up much of a fight... my sole Bloodthirster was singled out pretty quickly. With only S6 and T6, plain Bloodthirsters are not especially good against vehicles (though I vector struck down a space wolf flyer).

I guess it's just gorepack all day, huh? Without those meltas on the bikes, there just isn't much to do against vehicles in those smaller points games. I suppose my other option is going CAD and throwing maulerfiends or heldrakes in there.

How would you put together an escalation list starting at 750?

I usually play 2k or 1850, but I have had a lot of success and fun running lists that look similar to this

Slaughtercult:
Juggerlord with Ax of Kor'Lath
2 units of bloodletters
1 min unit of possessed

Lord of slaughter - D-Thirster

3 x Soul Grinders

1-2 Mauler Maulerfiends

and I spend the rest of my ponits on MSU Gorepack.


It's a ton of fun and has been very effective so far. The list is crazy fast and racks up kills and blood tithe quickly.

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Building a skullcannon is the only way to get a plastic Herald afaik. I put mine on a spare Juggernaught from the Start collecting Khorne Daemon boxes.

You can field up to 4 cannons in a Charnel Cohort for example.

GW Makes a plastic herald separate from the skullcannon kit. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Daemons-of-Chaos-Herald-of-Khorne


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:

 Nordicus wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

My Juggerlord killed one in Close Combat with his fist, but that's the only reliable way to kill them. Otherwise just ignore them entirely and if they get close, tarpit them with dogs. Being fearless, they will hold it for 2-3 turns, unless you're unlucky with stomps. By that time you can have more summoned in or just throw some bloodletters at it as well.

You don't need to kill it - Just make sure it's worthless for your opponent.

Your other option is to throw a blood thirster at it, by keeping it busy with dogs and/or cultists you can get to your 8 tithe pretty quick.

Vomikron is spot on about this army and board control, you can ignore most of the big baddies as they are so preoccupied trying to kill Khorne dogs they never get around to kill things that matter. And if they do ignore the dogs, well the dogs are too fast to ignore lol.

I am really opinionated on the slaughtercult, that amount of possessed is a really big point sink if you are playing anything 1500 or below; 1850 and up they seem to do really well as you have enough points to have them AND flood the board with units. The ONLY issue I have with that list is you are going to struggle against any Imperial MSU list like marines or foot guard that can match you in units, but have more firepower in each unit. (Hence my propensity for Cannons lol.)

Cannons cannot be stressed enough, I've heard too many Khorne players shun them because: 1. They use to suck. 2. "You can get them for free" (But then you are NOT getting the blood thirster or khorne dogs?) 3. It's AP5.

A rundown of what the Cannon can do:
1. Ignore Cover with S8 Large Blast
2. AV 12, most units will not be able to hurt this in CC
3. 12" Move + 2D6 Charge with D6 S7 Hammer of wrath and 4 S5 AP3 attacks on the charge? YES PLEASE.
4. No rider, so in CC they HAVE to attack AV 12 front.
5. It cannot be immobilized, cool
6. Oh you are stunned/weaponless/assaulted? You are Khorne, get in the damn fight lol.
7. All your daemon forces do not have grenades, NO PROBLEM HERE's A SKULL.
8. It eats people, and then gains a Hullpoint back.

You just sold me. I need to get some SKULLCANNONS!
They're only khorne model I don't own yet.

I'd like to try the following, a friend of mine at my local shop came up with the following list. 1850 ipts.... it looks pretty nasty and should get me decent amount of blood points early on. it's all about the 2nd turn and finding the right tactics to play this list. First time Chaos player**

2x HQ:
-Chaos Lord, Juggernaut of Khorne, frag/krak grenades, sigil of corruption, power armour, power first, lightning claw
-Chaos Lord, Juggernaut of Khorne, frag/krak grenades, sigil of corruption, power armour, power first, lightning claw

3x Elites:
-Chaos Terminator,Chaos Terminator, Chaos Terminator Champion. combi melta, chainfist
-Chaos Terminator,Chaos Terminator, Chaos Terminator Champion. combi melta, chainfist
-Chaos Terminator,Chaos Terminator, Chaos Terminator Champion. combi melta, chainfist

2x Troops:
-cultist champion 7x cultist
-cultist champion 7x cultist

2x Fast Attack:
-Chaos Spawn
-Chaos Spawn

3x Heavy Support:
-Maulerfiend 2xpowerfist, magma cutters
-Maulerfiend
-Maulerfiend

Gorepack:
x2 Bike squad - melta/ melts bombs
x4 Hound units

 Wulfenone wrote:
I'd like to try the following, a friend of mine at my local shop came up with the following list. 1850 ipts.... it looks pretty nasty and should get me decent amount of blood points early on. it's all about the 2nd turn and finding the right tactics to play this list. First time Chaos player**

2x HQ:
-Chaos Lord, Juggernaut of Khorne, frag/krak grenades, sigil of corruption, power armour, power first, lightning claw
-Chaos Lord, Juggernaut of Khorne, frag/krak grenades, sigil of corruption, power armour, power first, lightning claw

3x Elites:
-Chaos Terminator,Chaos Terminator, Chaos Terminator Champion. combi melta, chainfist
-Chaos Terminator,Chaos Terminator, Chaos Terminator Champion. combi melta, chainfist
-Chaos Terminator,Chaos Terminator, Chaos Terminator Champion. combi melta, chainfist

2x Troops:
-cultist champion 7x cultist
-cultist champion 7x cultist

2x Fast Attack:
-Chaos Spawn
-Chaos Spawn

3x Heavy Support:
-Maulerfiend 2xpowerfist, magma cutters
-Maulerfiend
-Maulerfiend

Gorepack:
x2 Bike squad - melta/ melts bombs
x4 Hound units

One problem seems to be when I plug this list into Battlescribe it comes to too many points, but with only 3 hound units in the Gorepack it just barely fits. I don't think you should take that many Termie squads, possibly replace two of them with more hounds to run with one of the Chaos lords. Maybe take either Goredrinker or the Bloodforged armor on the Lords (each Lord could take one of those). If you need more meltas, consider more bike squads or even a unit of Raptors instead of the Termies. One or possibly two squads of Meltacide termies is enough, three is probably overdoing it.

Sorry that was my fault. No Melta bombs. My only issue is aa

Daemonkin really struggles for decent AA. Naked Soul Grinders are not bad, but expensive for only 3 skyfire shots (at BS3 no less). Heldrakes can Vector Strike flying stuff, and Bloodthirsters can do this also, although not as well. Of course, if running a CAD you could take an Aegis Defense Line with a quad gun and put some Bloodletters on it for some BS5 AA power.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Daemonkin really struggles for decent AA. Naked Soul Grinders are not bad, but expensive for only 3 skyfire shots (at BS3 no less). Heldrakes can Vector Strike flying stuff, and Bloodthirsters can do this also, although not as well. Of course, if running a CAD you could take an Aegis Defense Line with a quad gun and put some Bloodletters on it for some BS5 AA power.

I have never used a ADL, and if i did incorporate that into an 1850 point list how point heavy is it? also other then AA what benefit does it provide? and is it ITC tournament legal. i.e battleforged list ...

Really, the amount of AA you need depends on your meta. Since I normally run a couple of Bloodthirsters, I generally don't need to add a lot of AA because I only encounter 1-3 flyers per list on average. I can usually snap-fire a few HP off it with a Forgefiend, or just vector strike it to death. If I feel like the flyer isn't worth it, I will just ignore it. Some of the flyers can't inflict much damage so it's a better decision to just ignore them.

stewy37 wrote:

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Building a skullcannon is the only way to get a plastic Herald afaik. I put mine on a spare Juggernaught from the Start collecting Khorne Daemon boxes http://i.imgur.com/ldKHVQ5.jpg.

You can field up to 4 cannons in a Charnel Cohort for example.

GW Makes a plastic herald separate from the skullcannon kit. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Daemons-of-Chaos-Herald-of-Khorne

Nah I have that one, it´s resin. Check the decription.

i've only run KDK a few times. i like the juggylord flesh hound delivery system, but aside from that i'm not married to any particular approach. mostly i have trouble fitting in all the toys i want. i love maulerfiends but the AV12 platform is a serious problem to their viability.

last game i brought in a CSM CAD for allied sorcerers for the dog star.

1849
KDK CAD
dthirster
juggy lord, fist/claw, sigil, blood forged armor
cultists
cultists
flesh hounds X10
flesh hounds X5
flesh hounds X5
mauler w/ lasher
mauler w/ lasher
VSG, 3 shields
CSM CAD
sorcerer, lvl 2, spell familiar, bike, melta bombs, force sword, gift of mutation, sigil
sorcerer, lvl 2, spell familiar, bike, force maul, gift of mutation, sigil
cultists
cultists

works pretty well, but obvious problems are AA. it is mostly for fun. the sorcerers roll telepathy until they get shrouded and invisibility, can go biomancy after that. upgrades would be to just bring belakor but i wanted the sorcerers (or at least one) in with the lord and dogs, and i like the stupid stompy robots. better list would drop the maulerfiends and a sorcerer and put in belakor and two drakes.

 gigasnail wrote:
i've only run KDK a few times. i like the juggylord flesh hound delivery system, but aside from that i'm not married to any particular approach. mostly i have trouble fitting in all the toys i want. i love maulerfiends but the AV12 platform is a serious problem to their viability.

last game i brought in a CSM CAD for allied sorcerers for the dog star.

1849
KDK CAD
dthirster
juggy lord, fist/claw, sigil, blood forged armor
cultists
cultists
flesh hounds X10
flesh hounds X5
flesh hounds X5
mauler w/ lasher
mauler w/ lasher
VSG, 3 shields
CSM CAD
sorcerer, lvl 2, spell familiar, bike, melta bombs, force sword, gift of mutation, sigil
sorcerer, lvl 2, spell familiar, bike, force maul, gift of mutation, sigil
cultists
cultists

works pretty well, but obvious problems are AA. it is mostly for fun. the sorcerers roll telepathy until they get shrouded and invisibility, can go biomancy after that. upgrades would be to just bring belakor but i wanted the sorcerers (or at least one) in with the lord and dogs, and i like the stupid stompy robots. better list would drop the maulerfiends and a sorcerer and put in belakor and two drakes.

AV12 does hurt a bit, but at least it has the Daemon save. AA is a bit of a problem for me too. Last game was a 600 point "Tuesday Night Fight" game at my local club, and a space wolf player managed to shoe-horn in one of those flyers of theirs. At that low of a points value, I was definitely hurting for AA.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
AV12 does hurt a bit, but at least it has the Daemon save. AA is a bit of a problem for me too. Last game was a 600 point "Tuesday Night Fight" game at my local club, and a space wolf player managed to shoe-horn in one of those flyers of theirs. At that low of a points value, I was definitely hurting for AA.

At that point level, wouldn't you be able to just maneuvre around it, loose a few models here and there and still retain board control though? I'm thinking that at such a small game, it would be a substantial amount of his army in one model.

That is how I tried to deal with it. Unfortunately, when my bloodletters came in via deepstrike, they were nice and grouped tight for his large blast shots :(

Ouch, yeah that might be a problem in the long run :(

 Nordicus wrote:
Ouch, yeah that might be a problem in the long run :(

That is a problem in every game for me but since they can´t assault after DS you may aswell let them run to spread em further apart. Anyone noticed that that the khorne daemon startersets have bigger round bases for the bloodletters (40mm)? Shouldn´t that help a bit against blasts? Bigger bases + 2" coherency = Less models under a blast?

Hmm they do seem to be on 32mm bases in the "Get started" set indeed for Khorne Daemons - The juggernauts are also on the AoE stetched oval bases.

Then again, that's for AoS where base sizes doesn't matter. I would go with the 40k boxes for now, in determining what bases should be used.

Looks like I have to rebase my Bloodied Horde. Base sales for the base god.

Well the rulebook says you use the bases that come with each box. So yeah thanks GW for gold standards.

I get your point and i agree but then there is that from the description of the box on the GW page explicitly allowing the box for 40k

This is a great-value box set that gives you an immediate collection of fantastic Daemons of Khorne miniatures, which you can assemble and use right away in games of Warhammer 40,000!

Worst case we have a starter box that doesn´t even provide enough models/units to build a simple CAD and without providing proper base sizes. Nevermind it´s called "Start Collecting" not "Start Playing" well done GW... well done *golfclap*

Right now, the different base sizes help me tell my bloodletter squads apart. I have exactly one squad of each base size painted, and one squad of each that are only primered

I guess I'll have to rebase mine at some point. I probably should do that with the CSM/Raptors/Warptalons anyway. Maybe then those Raptors and Warptalons won't fall over (physically, not in game) when someone looks crosswise at them.

The new bases are great for that reason... if a unit ever needed a wider base, it's a stupid bloodletter with a banner

Bigger bases = less frago which = more Dakka in CC win win.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Daemonkin really struggles for decent AA. Naked Soul Grinders are not bad, but expensive for only 3 skyfire shots (at BS3 no less).

You can grab the new Forgehost formation from the Curse of Wulfen book.
If one soul grinder inflicts a casualty (say with a baleful torrent flamer), then the other two grinders go from hitting 50% of the time to 75% of the time - putting them between BS4 and BS5 in hit rates.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
That is how I tried to deal with it. Unfortunately, when my bloodletters came in via deepstrike, they were nice and grouped tight for his large blast shots :(

You can run after deep strike. It should help a bit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maulerfiends will strike last against Knights, so even if you use Lasher Tendrils you need to be prepared to possibly still lose the combat, not to mention that Knights have decent weaponry

This. A sword and board knight will also be ignoring 55% of the incoming hits with either the invuln save for FNP. Fiends just don't have the required damage output.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Daemonkin really struggles for decent AA. Naked Soul Grinders are not bad, but expensive for only 3 skyfire shots (at BS3 no less).

You can grab the new Forgehost formation from the Curse of Wulfen book.
If one soul grinder inflicts a casualty (say with a baleful torrent flamer), then the other two grinders go from hitting 50% of the time to 75% of the time - putting them between BS4 and BS5 in hit rates.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
That is how I tried to deal with it. Unfortunately, when my bloodletters came in via deepstrike, they were nice and grouped tight for his large blast shots :(

You can run after deep strike. It should help a bit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maulerfiends will strike last against Knights, so even if you use Lasher Tendrils you need to be prepared to possibly still lose the combat, not to mention that Knights have decent weaponry

This. A sword and board knight will also be ignoring 55% of the incoming hits with either the invuln save for FNP. Fiends just don't have the required damage output.

Wow, that really probably would have helped if I had thought of that. I'll have to do that next time I deepstrike some daemons!

Can Khorne Daemonkin use anything from Imperial Armour vol. 13 The Lost and the Damned? I don't have the book and wondering if there's anything useful for them in there. Is KDK even mentioned in that book?

 D6Damager wrote:
Can Khorne Daemonkin use anything from Imperial Armour vol. 13 The Lost and the Damned? I don't have the book and wondering if there's anything useful for them in there. Is KDK even mentioned in that book?

I saw a mail from FW a few months back, where they confirmed that anything that wasn't dedicated to a god other than Khorne can be used by KDK, as long as you mark it. For example you can use a Decimator Engine if you put a dedication to Khorne on it, but you cannot use a Plaguehulk.

KDK is not mentioned, as they came out after IA:13 but the way FW wrote it, you can take pretty much anything CSM and Daemons can take, as long as it's able to be Khorne marked some way or the other - or is neutral (tanks for example).

Please tell me you can mark Typhons and fire raptors...

I used to take a Bloodthirster as my HQ. Now I don't, and here's why:

The standard Bloodthirster costs the equivalent of a Land Raider. Admittedly, it's a pretty awesome unit, but for the cost, I was looking to cut down. A CSM lord with a jump pack, a 5+ save, and the Axe of Ruin costs you considerably less (About 15 points less than a bare forgefiend, for example) .

What do you get with him? Well as an IC, he can join units. Put him in a group of Flesh Hounds and let them be exactly what you want them to be... scary suicide unit that people would rather kill than let into their front lines. And they are right to be afraid... that axe is AP 2, swings at the lord's initiative, and grants Decapitating Blow (instant death) on rolls of 6! It's a right dangerous weapon in any scenario (though spendy). It's true value is established, however, when the bearer is killed.

A bloodthirster emerges from the corpse of the slain, immediately after the CSM lord is slain. You can put right up there where the Lord got killed, no wonky "coming from reserves" business. So suddenly, you have a Bloodthirster in their face. For less than the cost if you had purchased the bloodthirster in the first place.

Downsides? Although your new BT loses D3 wounds a turn, those can be saved by invul saves so you don't end up losing too many. If my mathhammer isn't too far off, that should average you somewhere around 1.33 wounds per turn on average? With as many wounds as the BT has, and the liklihood that he emerges later in the game (after taking enough firepower to kill the lord) that ensures that he will not be killed by the wound-loss in most cases.

Another downside is that it is only the standard Bloodthirster. For some, this may not be a downside at all, but I know that I would like to get another D-weapon Bloodthirster in if I could.




There are variations possible with the lord, such as putting him on a bike or forgoing his invul save at all... that really depends on your play style, need for points streamlining, and preferences.


What HQs do you take?

I routinely take a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut, with Power Fist and Axe of Khorne, a Sigil of Corruption, and the Bloodforged Armor. He's pretty killy. I run him with some Khornedogs or Spawn for protection. I usually take a D-thirster as my second HQ if running a CAD.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I routinely take a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut, with Power Fist and Axe of Khorne, a Sigil of Corruption, and the Bloodforged Armor. He's pretty killy. I run him with some Khornedogs or Spawn for protection. I usually take a D-thirster as my second HQ if running a CAD.

So with a powerfist and a Axe of Khorne both being specialist weapons, he gets an extra attack right? You just choose which profile to use at the start of the assault phase?

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I routinely take a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut, with Power Fist and Axe of Khorne, a Sigil of Corruption, and the Bloodforged Armor. He's pretty killy. I run him with some Khornedogs or Spawn for protection. I usually take a D-thirster as my second HQ if running a CAD.

So with a powerfist and a Axe of Khorne both being specialist weapons, he gets an extra attack right? You just choose which profile to use at the start of the assault phase?

Yes, this is why I take both. The Axe can gank characters like Space Marines, whereas the Fist is good for taking out vehicles and Monstrous/Gargantuan creatures. He can get a silly amount of attacks on the charge (like 8 or 9), depending on blood tithe abilities and warlord trait.

I just wish the Blood Forged Armor was cheaper. I mean, for a Chaos Lord, you're paying a LOT for EW and FNP. EW is worth its weight in gold, but come on. 40 seems more appropriate.
Goredrinker is a different beast though. Outside of Wraithknights, it can be good against almost anything.

As a fun point with the Axe of Ruin... if given to a Chaos Lord and he becomes a Daemon Prince, it spawns a Bloodthirster. Also, when or if that Daemon Prince dies, it spawns another Bloodthirst. I'm sure a lot of people know this already but I figured I would mention it anyway.

Also that new formation from the Curse of the Wulfen book with the Skullcannons is super brutal. Plop that on a group of anything and watch them all die immediately due to a BS5 S8 AP3 ignores cover apocalyptic blast

Too bad it doesn't have BftBG...

 anticitizen013 wrote:
As a fun point with the Axe of Ruin... if given to a Chaos Lord and he becomes a Daemon Prince, it spawns a Bloodthirster. Also, when or if that Daemon Prince dies, it spawns another Bloodthirst. I'm sure a lot of people know this already but I figured I would mention it anyway.

Also that new formation from the Curse of the Wulfen book with the Skullcannons is super brutal. Plop that on a group of anything and watch them all die immediately due to a BS5 S8 AP3 ignores cover apocalyptic blast

Too bad it doesn't have BftBG...

Except that if you lose one of the cannons you lose the apoc blast. If you don't get first turn, guess what piece of your army is giving your opponent first blood...you won't even get a blood tithe point for it either since the formation doesn't have blood for the blood god.

Cannons work best as summoned units in KDK.

 D6Damager wrote:

 anticitizen013 wrote:
As a fun point with the Axe of Ruin... if given to a Chaos Lord and he becomes a Daemon Prince, it spawns a Bloodthirster. Also, when or if that Daemon Prince dies, it spawns another Bloodthirst. I'm sure a lot of people know this already but I figured I would mention it anyway.

Also that new formation from the Curse of the Wulfen book with the Skullcannons is super brutal. Plop that on a group of anything and watch them all die immediately due to a BS5 S8 AP3 ignores cover apocalyptic blast

Too bad it doesn't have BftBG...

Except that if you lose one of the cannons you lose the apoc blast. If you don't get first turn, guess what piece of your army is giving your opponent first blood...you won't even get a blood tithe point for it either since the formation doesn't have blood for the blood god.

Cannons work best as summoned units in KDK.

Over my tournament this weekend (an escalation tournament) I found that summoning is generally the best use of most of the daemons in the KDK codex, with the exception of flesh hounds. Also for some shenanigans... My friend and I got matched in the last round, and we usually have really brutal games (he plays space wolves). So I racked up enough BTP to summon a bloodthirster... and I chose my Chaos Lord with the Axe of Ruin. I don't know what the FAQ says about this, but we played it as the following:

Named him as model to be transformed into a bloodthirster. Rolled leadership check and passed. Removed him from the board. Placed the Axe of Ruin bloodthirster down, then I placed the newly summoned bloodthirster down.

I'm sure we made mistakes with the order of it there, and I am almost sure that the FAQ wouldn't allow it to be played in that way (or at least ITC FAQs), but he insisted we play it that way for maximum carnage Anybody want to clarify that for us?

You played it correctly. The model was removed as a casualty so you are allowed to summon the Bloodthirster from the axe while transforming.

True on the downside of that formation... but it certainly has the potential to do massive damage.

But the Axe of Ruin shinanigans is just awesome. I prefer the Daemon Prince method though... but two Bloodthirsters are better than one, haha.

 D6Damager wrote:

 anticitizen013 wrote:
As a fun point with the Axe of Ruin... if given to a Chaos Lord and he becomes a Daemon Prince, it spawns a Bloodthirster. Also, when or if that Daemon Prince dies, it spawns another Bloodthirst. I'm sure a lot of people know this already but I figured I would mention it anyway.

Also that new formation from the Curse of the Wulfen book with the Skullcannons is super brutal. Plop that on a group of anything and watch them all die immediately due to a BS5 S8 AP3 ignores cover apocalyptic blast

Too bad it doesn't have BftBG...

Except that if you lose one of the cannons you lose the apoc blast. If you don't get first turn, guess what piece of your army is giving your opponent first blood...you won't even get a blood tithe point for it either since the formation doesn't have blood for the blood god.

Cannons work best as summoned units in KDK.

If I had that formation of Skull Cannons and didn't go first I would place them in reserve. If i had the tools like banners i could DS safetly or simply come on my board edge, move 12" and shoot 36". 48" range from my table edge on turn 2 with the blast is still pretty awesome. Not having first turn isn't the end of the world. It isn't ideal and if you fail the reserve roll it will be awful.

I got my hands on a Brass Scorpion...

Anyone tried using that "Hellforged Hunting Pack" formation?
It's 1 Brass Scorpion with any EIGHT of the following: Defiler, 'drake, Forgefield, Maulerfiend, Grinders, Blood Slaughter, and Decimator.

I have enough to take:
Scropion
2x BaleDrake
3x Maulerfiend
3x Soul Grinder...

Dumb question coming your way: This formation states it's a KDK faction... does that mean the Blood Tithe is in effect? (or, does the models need to have "blood for the blood god!" rules??)

 whembly wrote:
I got my hands on a Brass Scorpion...

Anyone tried using that "Hellforged Hunting Pack" formation?
It's 1 Brass Scorpion with any EIGHT of the following: Defiler, 'drake, Forgefield, Maulerfiend, Grinders, Blood Slaughter, and Decimator.

I have enough to take:
Scropion
2x BaleDrake
3x Maulerfiend
3x Soul Grinder...

Dumb question coming your way: This formation states it's a KDK faction... does that mean the Blood Tithe is in effect? (or, does the models need to have "blood for the blood god!" rules??)

You need the Blood for the Blood god rule to use or generate blood tithe. So the Brass Scorpion won't do anything with Blood Tithe but the rest of your daemon engines will

I've used the formation. Its the ultimate RPS army. Its only as effective as your opponents anti tank is ineffective. If they have enough to kill your vehicles you lose. If not you win.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I got my hands on a Brass Scorpion...

Anyone tried using that "Hellforged Hunting Pack" formation?
It's 1 Brass Scorpion with any EIGHT of the following: Defiler, 'drake, Forgefield, Maulerfiend, Grinders, Blood Slaughter, and Decimator.

I have enough to take:
Scropion
2x BaleDrake
3x Maulerfiend
3x Soul Grinder...

Dumb question coming your way: This formation states it's a KDK faction... does that mean the Blood Tithe is in effect? (or, does the models need to have "blood for the blood god!" rules??)

You need the Blood for the Blood god rule to use or generate blood tithe. So the Brass Scorpion won't do anything with Blood Tithe but the rest of your daemon engines will

I've used the formation. Its the ultimate RPS army. Its only as effective as your opponents anti tank is ineffective. If they have enough to kill your vehicles you lose. If not you win.

They really ought to update the Brass Scorpion to give it BftBG in a KDK army. Seems kind of obvious especially since they have already done it for the Kytan, and if I'm not mistaken, a Chaos Knight of Khorne.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I got my hands on a Brass Scorpion...

Anyone tried using that "Hellforged Hunting Pack" formation?
It's 1 Brass Scorpion with any EIGHT of the following: Defiler, 'drake, Forgefield, Maulerfiend, Grinders, Blood Slaughter, and Decimator.

I have enough to take:
Scropion
2x BaleDrake
3x Maulerfiend
3x Soul Grinder...

Dumb question coming your way: This formation states it's a KDK faction... does that mean the Blood Tithe is in effect? (or, does the models need to have "blood for the blood god!" rules??)

You need the Blood for the Blood god rule to use or generate blood tithe. So the Brass Scorpion won't do anything with Blood Tithe but the rest of your daemon engines will

I've used the formation. Its the ultimate RPS army. Its only as effective as your opponents anti tank is ineffective. If they have enough to kill your vehicles you lose. If not you win.

They really ought to update the Brass Scorpion to give it BftBG in a KDK army. Seems kind of obvious especially since they have already done it for the Kytan, and if I'm not mistaken, a Chaos Knight of Khorne.

The Knight and Kytan were given rules after KDK was out so they took it into account.

Technically speaking the Brass Scorpian isn't even a option for KDK normally.

Any updates on recent Tournament play and KDK standings?

On a side note the Kytan is about 100 points overcosted. Keeping in mind the Lord of skulls, that isn't too bad, but the last game I played against one I dropped it with Multiple Melta servitors and a single Grav cannon. It really needs a shield or an improved demon save or something.

I won't run Knights because they seem way too steam punk for 40k and everybody and their sister brings em, so it's gonna get smoked. I've seen the Brass Scorpion in action and that's the superheavy run if it wasn't absurdly fragile and monetarily expensive.

EDIT: Anybody have /know the rules and restrictions for the skull cannon formation? As of now I only have one and usually summon it as a bullet sponge because it's the only thing I can summon that my opponent is typically afraid of enough to unload on it (it hits like a freight train on the charge and will usually swing any combat in my favor if given the xhance ). However I could justify picking up a couple more for that kind of nastiness. And yea, that's definitely something that sits in reserve T1.

Technically the Brass Scorpian isn't available to KDK. It was last updated before KDK came out and hasn't been updated to be an option for KDK since.

Apparently FW ruled otherwise. Check the middle of the last page. Nordic us emailed FW and they said as long as it's a Khorne specific unit with the mark you're good to go.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Apparently FW ruled otherwise. Check the middle of the last page. Nordic us emailed FW and they said as long as it's a Khorne specific unit with the mark you're good to go.

1) Emails aren't official sources for the rules
2) Brass Scorpian doesn't have a Khorne specific mark

No but it is a Khorne specific Demon engine. It's all in the name. The Greater Brass Scorpion of Tzeentch? Naw, Nurgle...wait that doesn't sound right either. Slaneesh. Must be Slaneesh. OH YEA! It's the Greater Brass Scorpion of KHORNE

EDIT: No matter what ones opinion on the validity of emails is, I can't think of any logical reason why a Khorne Engine can't be run alongside a Khorne specific book. Lord of War or no.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
No but it is a Khorne specific Demon engine. It's all in the name. The Greater Brass Scorpion of Tzeentch? Naw, Nurgle...wait that doesn't sound right either. Slaneesh. Must be Slaneesh. OH YEA! It's the Greater Brass Scorpion of KHORNE

EDIT: No matter what ones opinion on the validity of emails is, I can't think of any logical reason why a Khorne Engine can't be run alongside a Khorne specific book. Lord of War or no.

The rules clear its a no. And even by FW's email it's still no.

So let's just take a hellforged hunting pack

Where does it explicitly say a Scorpion can't be taken in KDK? I've got the dex in hand and can't find gak. Couldn't find anything under its entry on FW either.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Where does it explicitly say a Scorpion can't be taken in KDK? I've got the dex in hand and can't find gak. Couldn't find anything under its entry on FW either.

Where does it say you CAN? 40k is a permissive rule set. You need to be given permission to do something. Nothing is giving you permission to take the Brass Scorpion in KDK which is why you can't take it.

If you say so chief. A conflicting release time frame, a low-priority GW written secondary dex and "permissive" rules that have yet to be written are needed to take a Khorne unit in a Khorne codex. Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously pity the meta you play in because we both know those rules will never be written. Especially seeing as how the primary chaos book isn't due for an update until the second quarter of next year. In this case my people go by rule of common sense. As would anyone without a forgeworld phobia who isn't sporting a black "rules" uniform complete with skull and crossbones and red armband.

EDIT: CrownAxe the latter part of the post wasn't a shot at you. I was merely pointing out that someone who would refuse a game against KDK with a Scorpion, Knight or Kytan in it because rules from two different sets of writers in an out of sync time line don't specifically say you can take them is a pretty hardcore rules nazi. It's like a homeschooling parent refusing to acknowledge to their kids that 2+2=4 because the textbook omitted it.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
If you say so chief. A conflicting release time frame, a low-priority GW written secondary dex and "permissive" rules that have yet to be written are needed to take a Khorne unit in a Khorne codex. Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously pity the meta you play in because we both know those rules will never be written. Especially seeing as how the primary chaos book isn't due for an update until the second quarter of next year. In this case my people go by rule of common sense. As would anyone without a forgeworld phobia who isn't sporting a black "rules" uniform complete with skull and crossbones and red armband.

In a local meta you would have no problem playing it, as I doubt most people would deny you the right to play it - However. if you go to local tournaments or any sort of competitive play, it will be illegal to bring it. I think that's the point that's trying to be made It depends on who you play against but if you play against an opponent you don't know, he DOES have the right (currently) to deny you the unit in your army.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
If you say so chief. A conflicting release time frame, a low-priority GW written secondary dex and "permissive" rules that have yet to be written are needed to take a Khorne unit in a Khorne codex. Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously pity the meta you play in because we both know those rules will never be written. Especially seeing as how the primary chaos book isn't due for an update until the second quarter of next year. In this case my people go by rule of common sense. As would anyone without a forgeworld phobia who isn't sporting a black "rules" uniform complete with skull and crossbones and red armband.

Why does telling you how the rules work make me me have "forgeworld phobia"? I play a Forge World army for gods sake (Renegades). Besides you can still take a Brass Scorpion you just have to take it in a CSM detachment (oh no, that's so awful /sarcasm). Your play group can play 40k however they want but that doesn't change what the RAW is and most tournaments and some players play that way.

And by the way, its a permissive rule set so that the game works. Other wise I can say "well the rules don't say I can't just declare my self the winner so GG"

Check the post again Mr Axe. It's a shame that competitive play would refuse such an obvious connection when they're perfectly willing to fudge around with the Taus dex even though the rules are there and written in plain english. I mean if KDK couldn't have access to LOWS or something maybe, but that stupid Khorne mower is in the book. It seems like a pretty easy fix too. Certain TOs can be asked to review the rules. I can't imagine why they would keep it illegal. Rules that should exist but don't due to modern technology's inability to keep up with HG Wells. I mean if they can omit and tweak contemporary rules that do exist I don't see why they can't bridge a gap that common sense has but GW ignores.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Check the post again Mr Axe. It's a shame that competitive play would refuse such an obvious connection when they're perfectly willing to fudge around with the Taus dex even though the rules are there and written in plain english.

Not every tournament is ITC

 CrownAxe wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Check the post again Mr Axe. It's a shame that competitive play would refuse such an obvious connection when they're perfectly willing to fudge around with the Taus dex even though the rules are there and written in plain english.

Not every tournament is ITC

It was just one example. I mean most tourneys have their stipulations do they not? Some don't allow unbound, some ask certain gorgon zola to be left at home, others have restrictions on CADs/detatchments. All of which conflict with preexisting rules. I have no idea why this is a point of contention. Especially in this thread. Meh I guess there's the way things are and the way things oughtta be. Even though common sense has my back, I submit.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Even though common sense has my back, I submit.

It's not common sense we're debating - It's the written rules of which the game is based. We completely agree that it should be usable - No contention there. I also completely agree that if I have an opponent that asks, he should be allowed to field it. No skin off my nose.

The point is, that you cannot have it as a guarantee at events and certain opponents. To have it brought, it requires an opponent or an event that agrees to break the written rules to have it present. As much as it sucks, it's a fact we have to live with until some official letter of consent is made; Either via a FAQ or a written rule in the rulebook.

Besides, looking for common sense in 40k is already a pilgrimage that drives most men mad

My own personal experience here, not related to the ongoing debate above, rather about the army itself.

First off, I don't play as Chaos at all. I'm a Blood Angels player, though I'm sure some here will welcome me with open arms due to our 'mutations' LOL. But I'll provide my (the enemy) viewpoint for those concerned.

Last week was my first battle against Chaos since 5th edition. My opponent fielded a Khorne army, obviously, with the likes of Kharn, Bezerkers, 3 squads of cultists, LR Crusader, Forgefiends, Bloodletters, hounds, Bloodthirster, etc.

I fielded:

Mephiston (because MURDERSWORD)
Chaplain with JP

5 Death Company with JP
15 Death Company on foot/vehicle
5 Tactical Terminators

Cassor the Damned (Death Company Dred)
Raphen's Death Company (5 DC with JP)

Land Raider Crusader
Predator Annihilator

I immediately noticed how many guys my opponent had and how they could pretty much cover every part of his deployment zone. I was outnumbered. And those Forgefieds look far more capable than they actually are (DISTRACTION CARNIFEX).

I've also researched Kharn and wondered how he'd fare against Mephiston. It was pretty much a given that I'd need to charge him along with 15 DC, especially if he's accompanied by Bezerkers, which in this game he was.

Anyway, the game itself seemed fairly balanced early on, but then my Death Company started to murder everything. They swept through his hounds, 3 squads of cultists, his bezerkers and a Forgefiend. My opponent made the mistake of separating Kharn from his Bezerkers and then charging my dropped squad of Terminators. he killed 3 no problem, but then the remaining 2 punched him in the face with their powerfists and he died.

As his Bezerkers were on their own, my large DC squad swept them aside, but not before they'd taken out my Raphen squad.

His bloodthirster and a squad of weird looking beast things with pale skin attacked my other DC squad and my Chaplain. After three turns of CC that combat was reduced to a single DC marine with a powerfist and his Bloodthirst who was on 1 wound.

His LR and Rhino survived, along with several bloodletters.

I lost my predator in the 1st turn and then around 12 DC marines in total and 3 Terminators.

His strengths seemed to lie with being able to cover a lot of the board, but not having enough to support his CC squads as they moved forward.

His Bloodthirster was effective, but isolated, same goes for Kharn, the Bezerkers and the bloodletters, who were fodder for Moriar in the end.

If I learned anything that I can put across here, use a combination that works well together. And whatever surges forward in the army, make sure it's supported, and not just by more of the same type. If he'd used his Bloodthirster, Kharn and the Bezerkers together, they'd have murdered anything they came across, probably with the exception of Mephiston and his accompanying squad of 15 DC. His Forgefiends were also pretty static throughout the game. they could have moved up along with his CC squads. As he'd taken out my Predator in turn 1 there wasn't really much in terms of ranged weaponry that could have hurt them.

But his number 1 sin was spreading out his army too much.

Really toying with the Fist of Khorne in 1850.

If you run it. 20 berserkers naked and champion with powerfist/icon of wrath?

Anyone got any opinions on the formation?

Locking the shootiest units in CC while the rest of the army runs up field is just too tempting

You might as well add The Icon Of Wrath at that point. After almost everyone is dead you'll want to make those changes more likely.

A note on turning cultist champions into Bloodthirsters or Daemon Princes:

I keep trying in the last half of the game to turn a cultist champion into a Bloodthirster (often because all other IC are dead or already Bloodthirsters)

And I have failed the leadership roll many many times and he is just sucked into the warp.

At that point often you just need something fast to grab objectives - so I believe the wise thing to do would be to try and turn him into a Daemon Prince because atleast if you fail you will get a spawn which can still objective grab instead of nothing.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
A note on turning cultist champions into Bloodthirsters or Daemon Princes:

I keep trying in the last half of the game to turn a cultist champion into a Bloodthirster (often because all other IC are dead or already Bloodthirsters)

And I have failed the leadership roll many many times and he is just sucked into the warp.

At that point often you just need something fast to grab objectives - so I believe the wise thing to do would be to try and turn him into a Daemon Prince because atleast if you fail you will get a spawn which can still objective grab instead of nothing.

haha, briliant. the gods are fickle.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
A note on turning cultist champions into Bloodthirsters or Daemon Princes:

I keep trying in the last half of the game to turn a cultist champion into a Bloodthirster (often because all other IC are dead or already Bloodthirsters)

And I have failed the leadership roll many many times and he is just sucked into the warp.

At that point often you just need something fast to grab objectives - so I believe the wise thing to do would be to try and turn him into a Daemon Prince because atleast if you fail you will get a spawn which can still objective grab instead of nothing.

This is a good reason to have the Lord with the Axe of Ruin... double thirsters, and you have much less chance of failing the roll! Keeping him alive until you have 8 tithe to spend is another matter though.

So, what do you guys think about using the new Renegade Knights?
Sure they dont get BftBG, but dual Battlecannon or dual Gatlin Cannon might be an interesting alternative as long range fire support alternative to the fw chaos knight.

i tried it yesterady with double gatling cannon and missiles, it works fine wiht KDK, just annoying it has no BFTBG, but it fire really a lot, different role than chaos knight, more in the background firing and anything treathening ,less close combat.

I'm going to get the Renegades box and paint/model one of the Knights as a Khorne knight, so that I can use it as the FW one or a Renegade. All weapons will be magnetized of course!

has anyone had any luck with the d-thirster or ff? Not striking at initiative has made him all but useless and the ffiend seems over costed af for the damage it does. I just don't think the d-thirster is viable without psyker support

CumsnComments wrote:
has anyone had any luck with the d-thirster or ff? Not striking at initiative has made him all but useless and the ffiend seems over costed af for the damage it does. I just don't think the d-thirster is viable without psyker support

I can't speak for the Forgefiend, as I don't have one, but my D-thirster has done some work for me. He often gets killed early on, but he usually draws fire from my other units until he dies. When he does make it into combat, he usually obliterates whatever he charges. He's kind of a hero or a zero in most games. As has been mentioned before in this thread and others, the key to KDK is threat saturation. If they focus down one or two units, the rest are going to get their charges in and start wrecking face. Allying in Be'lakor does help keep a D-thirster alive, but good threat saturation makes it less necessary to have psyker buffs.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

CumsnComments wrote:
has anyone had any luck with the d-thirster or ff? Not striking at initiative has made him all but useless and the ffiend seems over costed af for the damage it does. I just don't think the d-thirster is viable without psyker support

I can't speak for the Forgefiend, as I don't have one, but my D-thirster has done some work for me. He often gets killed early on, but he usually draws fire from my other units until he dies. When he does make it into combat, he usually obliterates whatever he charges. He's kind of a hero or a zero in most games. As has been mentioned before in this thread and others, the key to KDK is threat saturation. If they focus down one or two units, the rest are going to get their charges in and start wrecking face. Allying in Be'lakor does help keep a D-thirster alive, but good threat saturation makes it less necessary to have psyker buffs.

Forgefiend is definitely overcosted a little compared to other codexes, but it does bring something great to the army - a ton of S8 shooting. He's often the star of my army.
Big tip for the Forgefiend though: almost always use Daemonforge on the first turn. Only wait unless you are absolutely positive the enemy has no way of killing it on the turn after AND you have poor targets this turn. The earlier you use it, the more likely you are to realise the benefit, the more impact it has on the game, and the more likely you are to regain the hullpoint later on.
8 S8 shots (even only at BS3) gives you a good chance to
- get first blood
- pop open most transports ready for hounds to charge.
- kill T4 multiwound models like Bloodcrushers, Crisis Suits or Broadsides
- wound and possibly ground a FMC



D-Thirster... a bit hit and miss. Literally lol - even with 8 attacks on the charge, missing with 4 of them severely cuts down his damage potential!
The problem I have with him is that most things that need to get D-slapped are going to deal significant damage to the Thirster in combat, possibly even kill it before it strikes. I'm thinking Thunderwolves or any other thunderhammer / stormshield unit. The things that the D-thirster doesn't worry about, are also complete overkill to hit with D-weapons. The thing I've found that he's best at is taking out vehicles or lone MC's - Leman Russ, Whirlwinds, Riptides, that kind of thing. And he makes a good fire magnet.

Forgefiends are complete gak.

There's a formation from the Black Legion sorta fixing the issue, and they still suck. Paying a bit more for frickin Furious Charge only makes things worse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Forgefiends are complete gak.

There's a formation from the Black Legion sorta fixing the issue, and they still suck. Paying a bit more for frickin Furious Charge only makes things worse.

Used the formation. Still a waste of of points when i could get allied support for cheaper. Maybe its my meta but what really kills the forgefiend for me is the ruins/cover saves everywhere at my FLGS.


On a more positive note. What have you guys found to be the best allies for your lists?

I typically run allied csm with:
kharn,
cultisists
chaos rapier batteries.

Kharn is joined to some bloodletters or cultists for bftbg.(fluffy)
Cultsits backfield camp
Rapier batteries for long range anti-tank, sometimes joined by a herald for bftbg but the effectiveness is dubious at best.

As far as allies go, the only one I've tried was Be'lakor. My bad play and some very bad luck ended up gimping me, so I didn't really get to see what he could do. I'll be interested to see how Renegade Knights do as allies with KDK.

Anyone else thinking of adding a Renegade Knight to the mix? Between Hounds, the D-thirster and an angry Knight running up the table, the threat saturation is getting a bit silly.

Fitting all the stuff in for the points is the hard part .

Also the daemon knight of khorne has a lot of benefits over the renegade knight. But is a good deal more points.

Chaos Knight seems better fit for Daemonkin no?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Knight.pdf

-BFTBG + Daemon Knight of Khorne seems pretty good

or are people put off by forgeworld/experimental rules?

I think ITC allows them though

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Chaos Knight seems better fit for Daemonkin no?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Knight.pdf

-BFTBG + Daemon Knight of Khorne seems pretty good

or are people put off by forgeworld/experimental rules?

I think ITC allows them though

The Khorne one is absolutely badass. Extra attacks on the charge? Rerolling stomps? Excellent...

I'm actually making my Renegade Knight more "Chaosy" and magnetising to give me the option to run as renegade or Chaos Knight.

They both have a place imo

Played a game last night 1850 Daemonkin vs Salamanders.

He was running something like this:

Tac squad, flamer
Sniper scouts
Sternguard
Vindicator
Devastators with 4 lascannons
Grav Centurions
Ironclad dread with 2 flamers
Normal dread
Stormtalon
2 Landspeeders with double flamers
Knight with the large gattling cannon and chainsword

His HQ was I think the Captain from the Badab wars that gets bonuses in challenges - he put him in with the Grav Cents.

I was running a large slaughtercult + gorepack:

D thirster

Slaughtercult:

Juggerlord with Goredrinker (Warlord)
2x 8-man Berzerkers with poweraxe, meltabombs, plasma pistol, rhino
3x 8 Bloodletters with champ
2x 1 Spawn
2x 8 Cultists
5 Possessed in rhino (wrathmonger models so they look really cool)
Gorepack:
2 squads of melta bikers
8 Hounds

We rolled and ended up playing long-way on the board and basic maelstrom, night fighting in effect, Daemonkin place/go first.

There were atleast 6 GW ruins placed around the board so decent cover, a temple of skulls in the middle and a set of the craters spread around.

I placed cultists on 2 back objectives, bloodletters in reserves and the rest of the slaughtercult + gorepack spread left to right along the 12" line from the center.

He placed everything spread out fairly evenly, scouts in ruins, speeders and stormtalon in reserve. His centurions and knight were together on his right side.

I scouted the Juggerlord with hounds ontop of the temple of skulls in the middle starting the game sitting on 4 objectives.

Then the fun began.

He rolled and...stole the initiative - doh.

Salamanders Turn 1

He moved everything up a little. Popped one of the berzerker rhinos with the lascannon devastators and fired almost everything else (vindicator, knight, grav cents) at the hound star killing 6 hounds (we play the temple of skulls as dangerous-terrain ruins plus night fighting gave them 3+ cover), taking a wound off the Juggerlord and killing 2 bikers. Not as bad as I thought it would go.

Daemonkin Turn 1

D-Thirster takes to the air and flies straight toward the knight. Everything else runs/moves flat out (rhinos) forward (except the cultists). Juggerlord with remaining 2 hounds move sideways and back a little behind a spawn since the Ironclad is coming their way. Almost no shooting.

Salamanders Turn 2

Pretty much same as last turn - more shooting. Flamer landspeeder deepstrikes next to the footslogging berzerkers and reduces them down to 3 guys (double heavy flamer salamander landspeeders are nasty). Kills off the 1 remaining biker from the unit before. Stormtalon comes on to shoot the other melta biker unit but I make all my saves (no jinking required). He pops the remaining 2 rhinos and kills 1 spawn and takes some wounds off the other. The other flamer landspeeder lands beside one of the cultists units and fries them all.

Daemonkin Turn 2

2 Bloodletter units deepstrike in his back lines, 1 misshaps back into reserves. Blood tithe summons bloodcrushers near his knight and grav cents and gives slaughtercult feel-no-pain. Meltabikers pop a landspeeder. Juggerlord, 2 hounds and the 3 berzerkers (long 10" charge for them) charge the tactial squad killing all but 1. D-Thirster lands in an attempt to line up an assault on the knight. Possessed move towards his sternguard and vindicator. 10 man berzerker squad moves toward his knight (tried to use them and the bloodcrushers to stop his knight from moving around).

Salamanders Turn 3

His knight and lascannon devs kill the D-thirster (doh). He only kills 1 possessed between the vindicator and sternguard. He sends a landspeeder to an objective. Stormtalon only kills 2 meltabikers. Grav Cents kill all the Bloodcrushers. He splits his captain off from the Grav Cents back toward a bloodletter unit and assaults them by himself - killing half of them. His ironclad moves back toward the other bloodletter unit roasting them all. Hounds, Juggerlord and 3 berzerkers killoff the last tactical and consolidate toward his lascannon devs (3 berzerkers) and his captain (Juggerlord and 2 hounds).

Daemonkin Turn 3

Last bloodletter unit arrives and is placed in the backfield. Bloodtithe turns the cultist champ into a Bloodthirster (except for the Juggerlord hes the only mortal champion left) which isn't too useful since hes in my backfield, bloodtithe also gives slaughtercult +1 attack.

Amazingly, the lonely meltabiker hits the stormtalon with a 6 (he didn't jink cause he thought no chance) then pens it, gets immobalized result and then makes the roll to destroy the zooming flyer - so awesome he earns MVP here (I also had the maelstrom card to destroy a flier). The 3 berzerks assault the 5 lascannon devastators killing 3 of them and taking no casualties (they were pissed they had to footslog this whole way and wanted revenge for their rhino).

The 8 berzerkers assault the knight taking 1 HP off with the meltabomb but losing most of them. The 4 possessed charge the sternguard, roll and get the +1 attack and init so they attack first (with 6 attacks each from +1 attack also from bloodtithe combined with rage) and kill all the sternguard.

The Juggerlord and hounds charge the captain that is still fighting a couple bloodletters - the Juggerlord challenges him and kills him in 1 attack (taking no wounds) and earning slay the worlord (I also had the maelstrom card to kill the warlord).

Salamanders Turn 4 - we decide this will be the last turn since its getting late

Things aren't looking too good for the salamanders at this point. He tries sending his ironclad to assault an objective that he needs to cash in all 3 of his maelstrom cards. To get it he needs to 7" assault my biker sitting on the objective (from where he shot down the stormtalon) but he fails the charge. The knight kills the Juggerlord finally.

Daemonkin Turn 4

Not much to do at this point, just move around and collect a few more cards and count up the game.

Daemonkin victory 12 to 6! (This makes me happy, I usually lose 3/4 times)

Takeaway:

-Bloodthirster is hard to position and survive to assault (massive fire magnet)

-3 Footslogging berzerkers can make it across the board to assault devs at the back (using long charges and consolidation to slingshot forward)

-Weird things will happen (biker shoots down stormtalon)

-The knight is scary but not super great at taking objectives

-having lots of bloodletter units deepstrike makes for a good distraction

-even though you will lose 3/4 of your army to shooting in the first 2 turns, when you assault, between rage and +1 attack from bloodtithe, you will get many many more attacks than you opponent in close combat allowing you to mop up in the assault phases for turns 3+

-possessed with 6 attacks each at str 6 is really funny (especially when noone expects much from them)

Nice batrep! Sounds like a fun game! I'll comment on your takeaway points:
-You're definitely right about the D-thirster, he is hard to get in a position to do anything. But when he does get to attack something, he absolutely kills it. I sometimes wonder if his best use is as a "distraction Carnifex" to take the fire off of your other units.

-Having that berserker unit down to 3 guys may have been the key to them making it across. It's easy for an opponent to ignore just 3 guys, whereas if there were like 8 of them they would have drawn more fire. Either way it sounds like you played pretty smart with them.

-The thing with the melta bike shooting down the Stormtalon reminds me of a time when I had a Ravenwing Attack bike shoot down a Flyrant (to be fair that Flyrant was already on its last wound). It's always fun when stuff like that happens!

-I pretty much just ignore Knights when I face them, because like you said they are not good for objective taking. They are extremely tough to take down, especially in melee. In your game, your D-thirster was your best shot at killing the Knight, which is why he focused it down.

-I agree about the Bloodletters deepstriking, that's how I always run mine. If they get into combat with MEQ they will wreck face, meaning your opponent HAS to do something about them. Giving them FnP is always nice! Flesh Hounds work great for this too and are slightly more durable, with the only downside being the lack of AP3.

-Daemonkin are super strong in the Assault phase of the game, but they have to survive a lot of shooting to reach combat. The great equalizer as far as losing all those units is the wonderful Blood Tithe table, as unlike many armies Daemonkin can replace losses.

-I think Possessed are under-appreciated. They are very much like Warp Talons in that they are squishy but when they make it into combat they can absolutely destroy almost anything except walkers. Rage + Furious Charge is nasty!

That Salamanders list VERY all over the place. Not to mention that they put the worst possible character in the Centurion squad.

So with the new FAQ from GW we get:

- Conjured or summoned Bloodthirsters can be swooping or gliding when brought in.

but we lost melta grenade attacks on our bikes (now only 1 attack).

Did we have more than 1 melta bomb before now? Thought it was just the champ.

The bloodthirster has got beeetttterrr. Arrive gliding. Allied psykers can use possession to bring in gliding KDK bloodthirsters and you can choose which type.

Some Flyers losing skyfire (and shriek auto hitting, therefore no longer being able to hit swoopers) means a bit more survivable swooping, but I don't see bloodthirsters swooping much.

Downside. No more deploying in allied transports. I which fw would faq what kdk get already cos I can't ride in an allied dreadclaw no more.

We also got - an IC with a jump pack can give rerolls on the charge even if he's in a unit without them. Could do a jump pack + korloth axe combo for a suicidal lord.

Also summponed flying daemon princes get to choose mode on arrival.

Agree - conjuring KDK bloodthirsters with BFTBG is interesting

Also, all of our walkers got more resilient since they can't be krakked to death

So here is a question that probably seems easily answered, but as a new player to KDK I thought I would ask.

If you field one Heldrake and only one because A) The auxillary choices for Bloodhost get expensive quickly and B) you're accused of cheese by your Thunderdome/triple Canoptek Harvest friends (I know right) then you need to choose the weapon correctly.

So would a lone Baledrake or a lone Hadesdrake be better? I'm asking this following the release of Death from the Skies as I'm not sure if the Baleflamer can be used in the Dogfight phase.

Not seen all the rules, but as its not a fighter, the hadesdrake won't be much better at dogfighting anyway. baledrake all the way.

How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

I forgot about that, probably because I didn't think I would need it. But re-rolling reserves/Objective Secured, alongside the Blood Host? Oooh tasty

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

D-thirsters and melta Bikes are good, especially with allied Be'lakor for Invis and Shrouding. Maulerfiends are okay against Knights, but you need at least 2 and preferably more. As for the Hellturkeys, either take Baleflamers or don't take them at all. BS3 Hades cannon is just not that great for the points that a Heldrake costs, whereas Baleflamer is awesome. You might consider Soul Grinders with Phlegm, as it is an ordnance weapon (basically a shorter ranged Battle Cannon). Melta Raptors make a decent alternative to bikes, although against Knights they are not as good as they cost a bit more. Perhaps the most drastic option would be to take a Kytan Daemon Engine or even a Lord of Skulls (although the Lord of Skulls is hella overcosted).

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

Take Kharn as an ally. He can one shot an invisible knight. If you can get him into combat.

Dayknight wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

It's the new Death from the Skies supplement coming out tomorrow.

ZergSmasher wrote:

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

D-thirsters and melta Bikes are good, especially with allied Be'lakor for Invis and Shrouding. Maulerfiends are okay against Knights, but you need at least 2 and preferably more. As for the Hellturkeys, either take Baleflamers or don't take them at all. BS3 Hades cannon is just not that great for the points that a Heldrake costs, whereas Baleflamer is awesome. You might consider Soul Grinders with Phlegm, as it is an ordnance weapon (basically a shorter ranged Battle Cannon). Melta Raptors make a decent alternative to bikes, although against Knights they are not as good as they cost a bit more. Perhaps the most drastic option would be to take a Kytan Daemon Engine or even a Lord of Skulls (although the Lord of Skulls is hella overcosted).

All solid advice. However I thought the hades drakes would be good since its an all knight list? I didnt think the flamers would be useful at all but maybe im missing something. Ill post a list later, its using some interesting combos. Hoping the d-thirster is worth it!

Virules wrote:

Dayknight wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

It's the new Death from the Skies supplement coming out tomorrow.

Thank you. I'm definitely going to use this supplement with the slaughtercult in the future.

 Dayknight wrote:

ZergSmasher wrote:

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

D-thirsters and melta Bikes are good, especially with allied Be'lakor for Invis and Shrouding. Maulerfiends are okay against Knights, but you need at least 2 and preferably more. As for the Hellturkeys, either take Baleflamers or don't take them at all. BS3 Hades cannon is just not that great for the points that a Heldrake costs, whereas Baleflamer is awesome. You might consider Soul Grinders with Phlegm, as it is an ordnance weapon (basically a shorter ranged Battle Cannon). Melta Raptors make a decent alternative to bikes, although against Knights they are not as good as they cost a bit more. Perhaps the most drastic option would be to take a Kytan Daemon Engine or even a Lord of Skulls (although the Lord of Skulls is hella overcosted).

All solid advice. However I thought the hades drakes would be good since its an all knight list? I didnt think the flamers would be useful at all but maybe im missing something. Ill post a list later, its using some interesting combos. Hoping the d-thirster is worth it!

Oh, didn't realize that the opposing list was going to be all Knights. I figured it would be 3 knights and some other stuff. My bad. Still, you could use the points better than Hellturkeys when facing an all Knight list. Perhaps consider Forgefiends, as they at least get TWO hades autocannons.

:
So this is my attempt list attempt at taking on an all-knight list. Keep in mind i am taking 1500 points, my ally is taking 1000 points of tau, and my opponent is taking approximately 2500 points of knights(so 5 to my knowledge).

"The Deathstar of rage"
CAD KDK:
BT of Insensate Rage x2
Cultist x2
Chaos bikers (x2 melta) x2
858

CD Allied detachment:
BT of insensate rage (grimoire)
Nurglings
350

Air superiority Detachment (from DFtS supplement):
Chaos Raptor Gunship (Reaper autocannons with malefic ammo[Rending], legacy of ruin: War of armaggeddon[+1 invuln for all DoK in 6 inches]
270

1478


Strategy:
Keep all 3 BT's in a foot large bubble with raptor gunship in the center. This should give all the BT's at least a 4++ and the grimoired BT a 2++. I have no idea what my ally is taking but i'm going to try and force the knights to engage as far as possible from him so he can take plenty of shots. Outflank the knights going towards his squad and pelt their back armor with melta until they either turn around and engage me or keep heading for the tau. Ideally I can target a single knight at a time with the whole death star but i doubt thatll work out. I stayed away from psychic as it is not my forte but im sure it could enhance my army.

..I think you need two flyers to get the detachment don't you?

Malefic Ammo isn't worth the points. Granted you're facing an all-Knight list so it matters less, but really still isn't worth the points.

In all honesty and in keeping with the fact that this is KDK im probably going to run multiple melta-bikes and 3 maulerfiends. I just cant trust the D-thirster because it doesnt strike at initiative. Ill tell you guys how it goes

Anyone else besides me like the Wrath Thirster?

You fly it on the first turn, then breathe fire / whip things till its safe to land. The whip is awesome since his BS is so high, you basically get D3 auto str 7 (i believe) ap2 hits.

I think its more suited to fight most enemy targets because it attacks at initiative. And the flamer+whip will wipe out half of an enemy unit even before the assault begins.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Anyone else besides me like the Wrath Thirster?

You fly it on the first turn, then breathe fire / whip things till its safe to land. The whip is awesome since his BS is so high, you basically get D3 auto str 7 (i believe) ap2 hits.

I think its more suited to fight most enemy targets because it attacks at initiative. And the flamer+whip will wipe out half of an enemy unit even before the assault begins.

Unless I desperately need the STR D, then this is my go-to Bloodthirster of choice. I agree that he is more well suited all around, with the exception of gargantuans and/or high AV vehicles.

Bump. new FAQ, lets have a look.

https://www.facebook.com/1575682476085719/photos/pcb.1625001914487108/1624997304487569/?type=3&theater

No blood tithe for just killing a character outside a challenge. Fine, we knew this was coming.

the dark apotheosis/ korlath trick is banned. FIne, it was silly anyway. But you can get two bloodthirsters through fury unbound hehe,

Goredrinker stays the same after apotheosis. cool ..

Clarified a load of stuff that should be in really isn't in. Bleh whatever.


Nothing on summoning, but OK the most contentious bit about swooping/gliding has been already answered.

Blood Oath:

Hungry for blood rule clarified. Thank god for that, the arguments against were getting depressing.

hellforged hunting pack all get BFTBG. YES I like this. A lot.

I like the clarifications a lot.

Our group actually played all the rules this way already (seemed the common sense way to me anyway) but definitely had tons of arguments on the forums about all these points.

And I know a bunch of players that played all these rules the opposite so should be interesting for them.

MWG Dave (miniwargaming batreps) is known for playing any character dies anytime = blood point and thirster always arrives swooping.

I've been playing all these pretty much as the FAQ clarified, though it is nice to be backed up by the FAQ lol.

It is a little strange that Dark Apotheosis doesn't trigger the axe, but the Bloodthirster does. Seems inconsistent. I am ok with this though, as I rarely used the Dark Apotheosis anyway.

I would prefer The Korlath Axe not triggering at all on Apotheosis or Fury instead of losing half of my blood tithe generation when getting blown to bits.

:sigh: Atleast we can chose if summoned FMC´s arrive gliding or swooping.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've been playing all these pretty much as the FAQ clarified, though it is nice to be backed up by the FAQ lol.

It is a little strange that Dark Apotheosis doesn't trigger the axe, but the Bloodthirster does. Seems inconsistent. I am ok with this though, as I rarely used the Dark Apotheosis anyway.

With dark apotheosis - the lord turns into a demon prince and is still holding the axe - noone dies so nothing triggers the axe to explode into a thirster. It didn't make sense before to have an axe explode into a thirster and the demon prince still hold the axe (there is only 1 korlath axe)

If you turn the korlath axe holding lord into a thirster, he actually is sacrificed to bring in the thirster and doesn't turn into one. So in that case the lords death causes the axe to unleash korlath AND the summoned thirster comes in - so you get 2 thirsters.

Yeah, nothing changes for me either.

Having a laugh about the MWG Dave comment, though. I noticed he will be pretty sneaky about many things going in his favor. Cocked dice, retroactively rolling things he forgot about, etc.

IMO, the "because there's a comma" excuse was always pretty flimsy for characters generating a tithe when they got shot to death. Seemed pretty clear from the get-go it was related to fighting challenges.

Re: Fist of Khorne: Don't tell the folks at YMDC that the issue is resolved, though. There's your proof that some people will argue for the sake of arguing and refuse to admit that they're wrong. (Please see the YMDC thread if you want to disagree/argue about it. This thread is not the place.)

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've been playing all these pretty much as the FAQ clarified, though it is nice to be backed up by the FAQ lol.

It is a little strange that Dark Apotheosis doesn't trigger the axe, but the Bloodthirster does. Seems inconsistent. I am ok with this though, as I rarely used the Dark Apotheosis anyway.

With dark apotheosis - the lord turns into a demon prince and is still holding the axe - noone dies so nothing triggers the axe to explode into a thirster. It didn't make sense before to have an axe explode into a thirster and the demon prince still hold the axe (there is only 1 korlath axe)

If you turn the korlath axe holding lord into a thirster, he actually is sacrificed to bring in the thirster and doesn't turn into one. So in that case the lords death causes the axe to unleash korlath AND the summoned thirster comes in - so you get 2 thirsters.

Ah that totally makes sense then. Like I said... I haven't even used Dark Apotheosis so I wasn't sure of the wording. I've always been using my CSM lord for double Bloodthirsters though... it always has been glorious. I like it because it's a ticking clock that my opponent has to deal with... either they have to take him out like I want them to, and can't ignore him, or I'll generate enough points to sacrifice him and watch him turn into two rage monsters. I usually splurge the extra 25 points for the sigil of corruption for this reason... he is a threat too big to ignore.

Yes and now we have full blessing to have the 2 thirsters come in gliding mode....sweet

So I thought I'd share some insites I've had recently in a small 950 game that I thought could be REALLY useful to all of us KDK players against highly mobile armies.

So Eldar, we all hate them, scatter laser bikes are annoying, space marine bike armies are also annoying, you get the idea.

So I faced off against a eldar scat bike list this weekend and found a really fun way to counter them besides khorne dogs....the skull cannon.

Now that we live in a world with one grenade per squad, and the skull cannons are now WS5 chariots with no riders and av 12, and they can move 12 and assault, maybe you can see where this is going.

I've had issues with khorne dogs not lasting long in these matchups, but the skull cannon, oh my, 125 points is now tying up that death star almost permanently, not to mention throwing out a crap ton of attacks on the charge. (Against Eldar that S7 HoW double tough is awsome, especially against invisible units)

It seems small, but in my matchup for example I was able to tie up all of his two death stars with two cannons, even winning one due to a lucky fear check gone wrong for him.

Enjoy the look on their face when you perma tarpit due to AV 12, they are also able to wade into fire pretty well with 3 HP and that invuln save. (Plus with allies its easy to boost that invuln)

So now that the hellforged hunting pack all get BFTBG...

How would the Blood Tithe work with these guys?

I have all the models needed to make a hunting pack, I just don't have the Demon Kin book yet...

 whembly wrote:
So now that the hellforged hunting pack all get BFTBG...

How would the Blood Tithe work with these guys?

I have all the models needed to make a hunting pack, I just don't have the Demon Kin book yet...

The same way it did before except the Brass Scorpion and Blood Slaughterers generate blood tithe now also

So looking at the tithe table

1: Adamantium will.. potentially useful if you are facing a lot of witchfire
2: furious charge and rage.. if you don't have it anyway, rage can be handy
3: FNP, no use to the pack as all vehicles.
4: + 1 attack. Why not. The pack can get a Lot of attacks.
5. Yes please, bloodletters or fleshhounds for tactical objective grabbing/holding
6: As per 5. I hear hellcannons are good.
7/8 Can't use as have no mortal champions.

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:


:sigh: Atleast we can chose if summoned FMC´s arrive gliding or swooping.

Is this in the general rule book FAQ?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So looking at the tithe table

1: Adamantium will.. potentially useful if you are facing a lot of witchfire
2: furious charge and rage.. if you don't have it anyway, rage can be handy
3: FNP, no use to the pack as all vehicles.
4: + 1 attack. Why not. The pack can get a Lot of attacks.
5. Yes please, bloodletters or fleshhounds for tactical objective grabbing/holding
6: As per 5. I hear hellcannons are good.
7/8 Can't use as have no mortal champions.

Hmmm.... maybe I ought to pick up that book then. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 whembly wrote:
So now that the hellforged hunting pack all get BFTBG...

How would the Blood Tithe work with these guys?

I have all the models needed to make a hunting pack, I just don't have the Demon Kin book yet...

The same way it did before except the Brass Scorpion and Blood Slaughterers generate blood tithe now also

Neato and thanks!

I'm sure the Scorpion would have no issues generating blood tithes now.

 Ignatius wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:


:sigh: Atleast we can chose if summoned FMC´s arrive gliding or swooping.

Is this in the general rule book FAQ?

Yes.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:


:sigh: Atleast we can chose if summoned FMC´s arrive gliding or swooping.

Is this in the general rule book FAQ?

Yes.

Awesome. Thanks. I suppose this is a significant boon for KDK. The two turn turn around time for bringing in Bloodthirsters was pretty debilitating. With this now only being a one turn problem I'll have to see if it is at all more viable to try.

How do people deal with AV14 like Battlewagons? I know Orks are in a tough spot right now, but I'd rather not have to assault a Battlewagon full of Meganobz in order to crack it open, because Meganobz will brutally murder most of our units in CC. I'm guessing the answer is "meltabikes" as usual, right?

Another option is melta Raptors...

One way of doing it in assault would be to surround the Battlewagon with hounds or something and then attack it. You hit the rear armor and hullpoint it out (just don't blow it up!). Meganobz cannot disembark and are destroyed instantly. Dirty, but it works!

Melta Bikes are the best option. Hell, it isn't even like they're a tax for the Hounds; they're both superb units. I gladly take 3-4 squads of Bikers to go with the Hounds.

Not to mention that Melta doubles out Nobz of all varieties.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How do people deal with AV14 like Battlewagons? I know Orks are in a tough spot right now, but I'd rather not have to assault a Battlewagon full of Meganobz in order to crack it open, because Meganobz will brutally murder most of our units in CC. I'm guessing the answer is "meltabikes" as usual, right?

Maulerfiend.

 sfshilo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How do people deal with AV14 like Battlewagons? I know Orks are in a tough spot right now, but I'd rather not have to assault a Battlewagon full of Meganobz in order to crack it open, because Meganobz will brutally murder most of our units in CC. I'm guessing the answer is "meltabikes" as usual, right?

Maulerfiend.

Or Meltaguns.

Quick question, Bloodcrushers don't look particulary great, except when summoned through Blood tithe. However, how well do Herald's on Juggernauts perform? Herald's probably going to have the Rage Locus and go with 8 Flesh Hounds (fluffy and stuff). Gorepack and Slaughter cult, with Bloodletters as troops.

I'm looking to get a fluffy list sorted for 750 pts as a fairly comp game as my opponents exclusively play Scatterbikes, Tau formations or Space Marines and I'm hoping that will do nicely, without resorting to a Soul Grinder (I just can't bring myself to assemble mine at the minute, too fiddly).

Juggerheralds are okay, although the ones from Codex: Daemons are better since they can get Daemonic Rewards. Daemonkin Heralds can't get AP2 weapons at all, but a in a blob of Flesh Hounds from a Gorepack, and toting either the Rage or Hatred locus, they can do some work. Maybe take the Blade of Endless Bloodshed for some extra Tithe (but not at 750 points).

As for Soul Grinders, they are a little bit fiddly, but not too bad. I had a blast painting mine. The trick is to paint it in subassemblies and then put it all together. And let me tell you, they can be pretty badass in the game. One of the best walkers.

Got a question.
When you summon your daemons I know they can't charge that turn but can they still run/shoot?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Got a question.
When you summon your daemons I know they can't charge that turn but can they still run/shoot?

Yes.

I'm going to indulge in some blasphemy.
Wolves summoning Daemons as meat shields!

How big would your games be before you consider taking a bloodthirster?

I usually run mine at 1850, but I have run him at 1500 (I don't recommend this though). The unfortunate thing in any size game is that a Bloodthirster, especially the Strength D version, is dangerous enough to become a bullseye with wings. Still, if your opponent is focusing the 'thirster down, he's not shooting those weapons at your other units, which if you do it right will be in his face on turn 2 or 3.

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
How big would your games be before you consider taking a bloodthirster?

Actually, the question should be how big should your games be before you take 2 bloodthirsters (also known as double-Ds)

As said above, they become a big target so at some point you need 2 to get the job done since its not worth taking just 1.

But with that said, I've had good results taking a Wrath Thirster solo in bigger games since he can fly around and contribute with his whip/flamer before landing a couple turns in when it is safe.

1000 points or less should be ok to take just 1.

So one of you says that i shouldnt take him on lesser than 1850 pts and the other says take one on any game and two on bigger games?

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
So one of you says that i shouldnt take him on lesser than 1850 pts and the other says take one on any game and two on bigger games?

We are both saying that they are giant fire magnets. He says take one at 1850 but it is a fire magnet. I am saying take one but also take another one, because he is a fire magnet this will leave one still alive to get the job done.

A nice powerful list is double Ds and a ton of khorne hounds, add other units to flavour.

Played with a Lord of Skulls, slaughter cult, and a cad in 1850 points yesterday. It was against a lance heavy nid list...

The LORD OF SKULLS is unstopable. You cannot stop it, you cannot bubble wrap. You cannot survive an assault. The thing is un killable at 9 hp with an invuln and IWND.

The ONLY drawback is with the movement turning counts faq it is a huge model to pivot and move. But hey it also has fleet lol.

Those of you thinking, "TOO MANY POINTS!"......I highly recomend you give it a whirl. (Of death)

I love the Lord of Skulls model, I really do, but I feel like it will just eat D weapons and die like a whimp, especially to Eldar, who spam such weapons like Marines spam boltguns. In my very cutthroat local meta there are a fair number of things that can beat a Lord of Skulls for far less points. In a less competitive meta, a Lord of Skulls would be very scary indeed.

Another reason (besides the point cost and money cost) that I don't run one is because local tournaments put an upper limit on how many points you can spend on a single SHV/GMC. 888 points is over that limit, unfortunately. I may still pick one up eventually for the fun of it, and it's great to see that it's working for someone!

I can't believe someone just defended the Lord Of Skulls...

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
So one of you says that i shouldnt take him on lesser than 1850 pts and the other says take one on any game and two on bigger games?

We are both saying that they are giant fire magnets. He says take one at 1850 but it is a fire magnet. I am saying take one but also take another one, because he is a fire magnet this will leave one still alive to get the job done.

A nice powerful list is double Ds and a ton of khorne hounds, add other units to flavour.

Thank you.
Why not take one at 1000pts?

If you really want a bloodthirster in a game of 1000 points or less, I suggest the lauded "CSM Lord with Axe of Ruin" method. Very cheaply nets you a thirster upon his death, albeit not the D-strength variety.

Some really good stuff in this thread! I'm a rather new player, and am only just expanding from my first army (Nurgle-themed CSM) into Daemonkin. I'm going to get my first chance to play them at a shop tomorrow, and this is the list I'm planning on taking. Bear in mind that this list is what it is mostly because it's using models I already have, so it's not perfect. I'm looking for comments and suggestions as to what to buy to add in next.


1500 Point Khorne Blood Host

Slaughtercult:
Chaos Lord - Axe of Khorne, Combi-flamer, melta bombs, terminator armor
8 Berzerkers - Melta bombs + Power Axe on champ, chaos rhino w/extra combi-bolter
8 Bloodletters - Bloodreaper, instrument, banner of blood
5 Possessed - Chaos rhino w/extra combi-bolter

Gorepack:
3 Chaos Bikers - 2 meltaguns, combi-melta
3 Chaos Bikers - 2 meltaguns, combi-melta
8 Flesh Hounds
8 Flesh Hounds
8 Flesh Hounds

War Engines:
Helbrute - multi-melta, powerfist w/heavy flamer
Helbrute - multi-melta, powerfist w/heavy flamer


My plan with this list is to keep the bloodletters, lord and helbrutes in deep strike reserve, using the instrument to bring the lord in with the Bloodletters and the banner to make sure they come in together. The rest of the army will rush up the board, securing objectives/murdering enemy troops. Bikers will try to pop vehicles, with helbrutes either backing them up or going for crowds. Rhinos (if they survive) will hopefully draw fire from helbrutes or, if ignored, pick off strays.

I hope to pick up a Khorne Daemon starter pack tomorrow, so I can add a skull cannon, juggerherald and juggerlord, as well as more bloodletters. I will probably look to add another skull cannon or two and a couple of Soul Grinders next. Any thoughts/suggestions?

MegaVikingMan wrote:
Some really good stuff in this thread! I'm a rather new player, and am only just expanding from my first army (Nurgle-themed CSM) into Daemonkin. I'm going to get my first chance to play them at a shop tomorrow, and this is the list I'm planning on taking. Bear in mind that this list is what it is mostly because it's using models I already have, so it's not perfect. I'm looking for comments and suggestions as to what to buy to add in next.


1500 Point Khorne Blood Host

Slaughtercult:
Chaos Lord - Axe of Khorne, Combi-flamer, melta bombs, terminator armor
8 Berzerkers - Melta bombs + Power Axe on champ, chaos rhino w/extra combi-bolter
8 Bloodletters - Bloodreaper, instrument, banner of blood
5 Possessed - Chaos rhino w/extra combi-bolter

Gorepack:
3 Chaos Bikers - 2 meltaguns, combi-melta
3 Chaos Bikers - 2 meltaguns, combi-melta
8 Flesh Hounds
8 Flesh Hounds
8 Flesh Hounds

War Engines:
Helbrute - multi-melta, powerfist w/heavy flamer
Helbrute - multi-melta, powerfist w/heavy flamer


My plan with this list is to keep the bloodletters, lord and helbrutes in deep strike reserve, using the instrument to bring the lord in with the Bloodletters and the banner to make sure they come in together. The rest of the army will rush up the board, securing objectives/murdering enemy troops. Bikers will try to pop vehicles, with helbrutes either backing them up or going for crowds. Rhinos (if they survive) will hopefully draw fire from helbrutes or, if ignored, pick off strays.

I hope to pick up a Khorne Daemon starter pack tomorrow, so I can add a skull cannon, juggerherald and juggerlord, as well as more bloodletters. I will probably look to add another skull cannon or two and a couple of Soul Grinders next. Any thoughts/suggestions?

For one, Helbrutes cannot Deep Strike, except in certain CSM formations. The list as a whole is okay, but could be better once you get the new models. The first things to drop are probably the Helbrutes and the Berzerkers. Also drop the termie armor on the Chaos Lord in favor of a juggernaut. I know you may not have the model for that, but you should definitely get one at some point. Since you need 2 troops in the Slaughtercult, I actually recommend CSM over Berzerkers, as they can take special weapons (like Meltaguns). Not sure you need the extra weapons on the Rhinos since they are only there to get your men where they need to go and then give up a couple of blood tithe points.

As for the Start Collecting Khorne Daemons pack, it is a pretty solid option. Skull cannons are probably better for summoning rather than including in your list, though. Unless you want to run a Charnel Cohort or something. I see you are also interested in Soul Grinders; they are definitely worthwhile, indeed one of the stronger choices in the codex. Another good option would be a Heldrake. Truly one of the best toys Chaos has; that AP3 Torrent Flamer is brutal to anything less than Terminators. Finally, at some point you will want a Bloodthirster of some variety; they are strong and the model itself makes a beautiful centerpiece to a Khorne army.

Hope that helps!

Oops! I forgot that about Helbrutes, I am used to using them in the Mayhem Pack formation from the Helbrute dataslate, where they all deep strike at once. I plan on running a juggerlord as soon as I get that starter pack, by cannibalizing the bloodcrushers. I might take your advice on the berzerkers, but I want to try them out first. Skull cannons will be for summoning, yes.

What would you do to take the Heldrake? Allies or the one formation that lets you bring them? Or just make a CAD? I've played with them plenty, they're in my Nurgle army. I'd feel weird bringing big green Heldrakes in a black and red Khorne army...but they are awesome.

I don't see Bloodthirsters being cost effective at this size, but I definitely want to get one eventually for summoning. Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

For Heldrakes, I've gone all three ways you mentioned: I've run the formation in a Blood Host(good, but not worth the Warp Talon tax), I've taken a CAD (probably the best way to get a 'drake), and I've allied one in (only because I already needed the allied CSM detachment for Be'lakor).

So, now that people have had a chance to try out the Cyclopian Cabal, has anyone had much luck using it with Khorne Daemonkin? If so, how did you do it? I have a list planned to run a 3-man Cabal of unmarked sorcerers in a blob of 20 hounds, with a beatstick Chaos Lord to take challenges so that the valuable sorcerers don't get challenged out. I would think this would make a reasonably powerful deathstar unit if you get some good buffs on it (like Sanctuary and Hammerhand).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, now that people have had a chance to try out the Cyclopian Cabal, has anyone had much luck using it with Khorne Daemonkin? If so, how did you do it? I have a list planned to run a 3-man Cabal of unmarked sorcerers in a blob of 20 hounds, with a beatstick Chaos Lord to take challenges so that the valuable sorcerers don't get challenged out. I would think this would make a reasonably powerful deathstar unit if you get some good buffs on it (like Sanctuary and Hammerhand).

I tried this pretty much by taking an allied Daemonkin detachment with a Juggernaught Herald and 20 hounds. Herald had the hatred locus and both joined the Cabal in a deathstar. It worked quite well but I did get lucky on the psychic Powers, rolling Iron arm, endurance, hammerhand and invisibility

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, now that people have had a chance to try out the Cyclopian Cabal, has anyone had much luck using it with Khorne Daemonkin? If so, how did you do it? I have a list planned to run a 3-man Cabal of unmarked sorcerers in a blob of 20 hounds, with a beatstick Chaos Lord to take challenges so that the valuable sorcerers don't get challenged out. I would think this would make a reasonably powerful deathstar unit if you get some good buffs on it (like Sanctuary and Hammerhand).

I tried this pretty much by taking an allied Daemonkin detachment with a Juggernaught Herald and 20 hounds. Herald had the hatred locus and both joined the Cabal in a deathstar. It worked quite well but I did get lucky on the psychic Powers, rolling Iron arm, endurance, hammerhand and invisibility

Good rolling on those powers. The only other one you might have wanted would have been sanctuary for that 4+ invulnerable save. I'm definitely gonna try this, although I might take a CAD so that I'd have a Lord in there to fight challenges so that the Herald doesn't have to. Heralds lack AP2 and so can get beaten pretty easily if facing a character with a 2+ armor save (i.e. most good Space Marine characters).

Yeah Sanctuary was the one power I missed out on, I think I got Cleansing Flame and Vortex instead.

The main points of the Herald were to allow me to take hounds in an allied detachment rather than a Gorepack, but more importantly to eat challenges so the sorcerers didn't have to. As he was hitting on 3s (with hatred rerolls) at S8 AP3 on the charge there was a chance to ID T4 characters and he wasn't too shabby. I didn't actually face any 2+ models on that occasion but hopefully my Iron Arm Black Mace Sorcerer at S9 AP2 would have mopped them up outside of the challenge.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yeah Sanctuary was the one power I missed out on, I think I got Cleansing Flame and Vortex instead.

The main points of the Herald were to allow me to take hounds in an allied detachment rather than a Gorepack, but more importantly to eat challenges so the sorcerers didn't have to. As he was hitting on 3s (with hatred rerolls) at S8 AP3 on the charge there was a chance to ID T4 characters and he wasn't too shabby. I didn't actually face any 2+ models on that occasion but hopefully my Iron Arm Black Mace Sorcerer at S9 AP2 would have mopped them up outside of the challenge.

How was the herald getting S8?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yeah Sanctuary was the one power I missed out on, I think I got Cleansing Flame and Vortex instead.

The main points of the Herald were to allow me to take hounds in an allied detachment rather than a Gorepack, but more importantly to eat challenges so the sorcerers didn't have to. As he was hitting on 3s (with hatred rerolls) at S8 AP3 on the charge there was a chance to ID T4 characters and he wasn't too shabby. I didn't actually face any 2+ models on that occasion but hopefully my Iron Arm Black Mace Sorcerer at S9 AP2 would have mopped them up outside of the challenge.

How was the herald getting S8?

Juggernought gives +1S + Furious Charge+ Hammerhand I think?

Yeah he's S5 base so on the charge it's +1 from furious charge and +2 from Hammerhand.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yeah Sanctuary was the one power I missed out on, I think I got Cleansing Flame and Vortex instead.

The main points of the Herald were to allow me to take hounds in an allied detachment rather than a Gorepack, but more importantly to eat challenges so the sorcerers didn't have to. As he was hitting on 3s (with hatred rerolls) at S8 AP3 on the charge there was a chance to ID T4 characters and he wasn't too shabby. I didn't actually face any 2+ models on that occasion but hopefully my Iron Arm Black Mace Sorcerer at S9 AP2 would have mopped them up outside of the challenge.

How was the herald getting S8?

Juggernought gives +1S + Furious Charge+ Hammerhand I think?

Juggernaut does not give +1S. It gives +1A, +1T, and +1W. I think you may be confusing it with Thunderwolves or something.

I've been toying with an idea that I have yet to try. Mostly just shower thoughts. I doubt it would hold much water.

What if you take a Crimson Slaughter Cult of the Slaughter (the Dark Apostle + replenishing cultists) and stick your KDK Herald with a Blade of Endless Bloodshed in there? Give the Apostle the Relic crozius that give him a 6" zealot bubble, run his group up behind the first with the herald. Giving them reinforcements (on a 30 man khornate blob of cultists) and Zealot.

Then the Herald simply generates BT off of his kills. Best targets would include basic marine squads, or other large tarpit units (Green tide, imperial guard infantry platoons, other cultist blobs, zombies, etc.) He could then act as your generator for additional BT, giving you the points you need to summon additional bloodletters and such, as well as potentially ripping through other tarpit units without running the risk of being reduced too heavily in number to continue to be an effective tarpit. I have considered adding other characters such as a Chaos Lord to this unit to add more punch. Maybe some AP 2 with an Axe of Khorne and some Meltabombs so they don't get caught by a Walker they can't kill.

Probably a pipe dream but I am thinking of building a list around it and seeing what I can do with it. Just gotta watch out for snipers... I get the feeling that Dark Apostle will have a big target painted on his back.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've been toying with an idea that I have yet to try. Mostly just shower thoughts. I doubt it would hold much water.

I really want to believe this play on words was deliberate...

Saythings wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've been toying with an idea that I have yet to try. Mostly just shower thoughts. I doubt it would hold much water.

I really want to believe this play on words was deliberate...

Tzeentch has a plan for us all

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

Saythings wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've been toying with an idea that I have yet to try. Mostly just shower thoughts. I doubt it would hold much water.

I really want to believe this play on words was deliberate...

Tzeentch has a plan for us all

Have an exalt for making me chuckle aloud at work.

Hey guys, i just picked up a decent deal for a khorne start( skarbrand, 3 bloodcrushers, 10 bloodletters, 10 flesh hounds, and a daemon prince for $130 total) and was wondering what the general consensus is on best way to build up daemonkin? I was thinking gorepacks as brother is starting white scars and hammer of wrath wars make me chuckle. But other than msu, is there anything I need to know before delving too far?

Ecdain wrote:
Hey guys, i just picked up a decent deal for a khorne start( skarbrand, 3 bloodcrushers, 10 bloodletters, 10 flesh hounds, and a daemon prince for $130 total) and was wondering what the general consensus is on best way to build up daemonkin? I was thinking gorepacks as brother is starting white scars and hammer of wrath wars make me chuckle. But other than msu, is there anything I need to know before delving too far?

Just scroll up, lots of info available up there.

You can't use Skarbrand with Daemonkin, but he's pretty nasty in Daemons, or so I hear.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
You can't use Skarbrand with Daemonkin, but he's pretty nasty in Daemons, or so I hear.

I know, but I figure since he is literally just a bad ass thirster, people won't mind him pretending to be one until I fleshbane out my model count. Also I actually am starting daemons(tetrad/factory) and khorne same time so I like that he is interchangeable

And you're totally right, he's pretty much a thirster for 225 in the daemon book(his unique weapons are cool, both S user ap 2. One has fleshbane, the other has armourbane and Both specialist) which makes him pretty nice.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've been toying with an idea that I have yet to try. Mostly just shower thoughts. I doubt it would hold much water.

What if you take a Crimson Slaughter Cult of the Slaughter (the Dark Apostle + replenishing cultists) and stick your KDK Herald with a Blade of Endless Bloodshed in there? Give the Apostle the Relic crozius that give him a 6" zealot bubble, run his group up behind the first with the herald. Giving them reinforcements (on a 30 man khornate blob of cultists) and Zealot.

Then the Herald simply generates BT off of his kills. Best targets would include basic marine squads, or other large tarpit units (Green tide, imperial guard infantry platoons, other cultist blobs, zombies, etc.) He could then act as your generator for additional BT, giving you the points you need to summon additional bloodletters and such, as well as potentially ripping through other tarpit units without running the risk of being reduced too heavily in number to continue to be an effective tarpit. I have considered adding other characters such as a Chaos Lord to this unit to add more punch. Maybe some AP 2 with an Axe of Khorne and some Meltabombs so they don't get caught by a Walker they can't kill.

Probably a pipe dream but I am thinking of building a list around it and seeing what I can do with it. Just gotta watch out for snipers... I get the feeling that Dark Apostle will have a big target painted on his back.

Just an update: I ran a game using two Crimson Slaughter formations (Cult of Slaughter and Brethren of the Dark Covenant) combined with a KDK CAD and it ran beautifully against a Tyranid opponent. More testing on the way, it does have some pretty hard weaknesses (particularly against fliers, I only had a Heldrake to contend with those), but the way I built it made the melee units pretty beat-stick.

Rumors are that Kharn is coming to KDK... if that is true, how does this affect your KDK armies?

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Rumors are that Kharn is coming to KDK... if that is true, how does this affect your KDK armies?

I'll be getting him for sure! However, I probably won't use him much, as he lacks a good delivery system (Land Raiders do not count on that score...).

It'd make him considerably easier to get into a Houndstar but that's about it.

I'd wait until the new CSM stuff is released before considering using him though. Yeah he kills stuff but he's not durable even with tons of hounds as ablative wounds.

I would use him if you could add him to the Fist of Khorne Formation.

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
I would use him if you could add him to the Fist of Khorne Formation.

Damn, that would be awesome. Is it pretty much confirmed no Kharn for KDK now?

EDC

It is confirmed.

However, you could field a detachment with him in it fairly easily, and then attach him to a KDK bezerker unit... just as before. He just wouldn't generate blood tithe points from challenges.

So first 500 points.

Gorepack or a CAD? I'm thinking Herald, Bloodletters and dogs/spawn.

Also is it me or does the start collecting! box suck?